1
00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:12,080
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. Hi again, it's suckshot.

2
00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 1: My book Climate Capitalism, Winning the Global Race to Zero

3
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 1: Emissions is out in the US and Canada today, so

4
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,479
Speaker 1: I thought as a preview you might enjoy listening to

5
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,440
Speaker 1: a conversation I had with podcast editor Kira Bindram about

6
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 1: the book and the ideas in it. After you read

7
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,760
Speaker 1: the book, please write to me with feedback at Zero

8
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,360
Speaker 1: Pod at Bloomberg dot net.

9
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:34,080
Speaker 2: Thanks.

10
00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 3: Welcome to Zero I'm Kira Bindram, editor of Bloomberg's Greener

11
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,320
Speaker 3: Living section and a good friend of the pod. Today

12
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,000
Speaker 3: is a special day on Zero because today is a

13
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,040
Speaker 3: day your usual host has been waiting on for months.

14
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 3: Climate Capitalism, a new book by akshat Rapi, is now

15
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 3: on sale. Climate Capitalism sets out to answer an important question.

16
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 3: If capitalists are set up to maximize profits, how can

17
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,800
Speaker 3: they also prioritize the planet. Over twelve chapters, akshot introduces

18
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 3: a dozen people who are already making climate capitalism work,

19
00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,760
Speaker 3: from the engineer who shaped China's electric car policies, to

20
00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,479
Speaker 3: the politician who helped make net zero a UK law,

21
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,399
Speaker 3: to the CEO who fought off a takeover attempt. So

22
00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 3: you could stick with a sustainability strategy. Akshat and I

23
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,120
Speaker 3: have known each other for almost seven years now, and

24
00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,120
Speaker 3: what comes across in his book is what comes across every.

25
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:31,480
Speaker 2: Time I talk to him.

26
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,520
Speaker 3: A lot of very smart and very interesting people are

27
00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,000
Speaker 3: working on climate problems. Many of them are proof positive

28
00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,840
Speaker 3: that the capitalist framework can be effective. As Akshot writes

29
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,080
Speaker 3: in the book's very first line, it's now cheaper to save.

30
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:46,240
Speaker 2: The world than destroy it.

31
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 3: I also know how much work Akshot has put into

32
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,560
Speaker 3: this book, so after reading it, I thought it might

33
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,680
Speaker 3: be fun to put him on the hot seat for once,

34
00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,840
Speaker 3: because I wanted to ask Akshat, if climate capitalism is

35
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,200
Speaker 3: so doable, why does it seem so difficult?

36
00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,480
Speaker 2: Aksha, Welcome to your podcast. How are you feeling nervous?

37
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 1: Because I don't usually get interviewed, I'm not on this

38
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 1: side of the screen.

39
00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 2: I'll try to be gentle.

40
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,440
Speaker 3: The underpinning of the book, I would say, and you

41
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,760
Speaker 3: can correct me if I'm wrong, is that capitalism and

42
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 3: climate progress are compatible because they have to be. You

43
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,799
Speaker 3: say in the intro, changing our entire economic system and

44
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,639
Speaker 3: our entire energy system in the time that we need

45
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,840
Speaker 3: to do it to affect change with the climate is

46
00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,640
Speaker 3: just really not feasible.

47
00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 2: And I'm curious.

48
00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,840
Speaker 3: Whether you think most people would agree, Like, if you

49
00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,239
Speaker 3: sort of set out with these two things are compatible,

50
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,440
Speaker 3: do you think of that as a statement of fact

51
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 3: an article of faith? Do you think you're making a

52
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 3: provocative argument? Where do you think most people land on

53
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,440
Speaker 3: this question of whether these two ideas can work together?

54
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,640
Speaker 1: Sadly, the answer is that most people haven't talked about it.

55
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,440
Speaker 1: The trouble with climate is that there are very loud voices,

56
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,359
Speaker 1: very few of them on opposite side of the political spectrum. Yes,

57
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,320
Speaker 1: there's a whole range of voices in the middle, but

58
00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,120
Speaker 1: that's also a small population. Most people aren't thinking about

59
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,799
Speaker 1: climate solutions. But if we speak to the climate crowd,

60
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,280
Speaker 1: I think most people will not agree that capitalism can

61
00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:22,200
Speaker 1: be a solution. And that's because the root of environmentalism,

62
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 1: or the root of most people who are trying to

63
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,800
Speaker 1: work on solutions, has been to try and overcome this

64
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 1: economic system that we must accept has been a part

65
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 1: of the problem, has been the driving force of profit

66
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 1: maximization over making sure all the impacts of that process

67
00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,480
Speaker 1: are taken into consideration, and so there is no doubt.

68
00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 1: It's a provocation. That is how the publisher pitched it

69
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 1: to me, which is, if you're going to give people

70
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,360
Speaker 1: something they will read, you have to be a little provocative.

71
00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,480
Speaker 1: But as I wrote the book, and as I tried

72
00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,720
Speaker 1: to tell the stories, it actually became easier because I

73
00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,119
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to create something that wasn't happening. I wasn't

74
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,480
Speaker 1: trying to make a case for something that should happen.

75
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,920
Speaker 1: I ended up writing a series of stories of things

76
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:11,400
Speaker 1: that are already happening.

77
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 3: So the way you've structured the book, as you're alluding to,

78
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,080
Speaker 3: is each chapter you give us a person who is

79
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,640
Speaker 3: working towards climate campus is not just one person, but

80
00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,359
Speaker 3: there is sort of an anchor person in most of

81
00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,839
Speaker 3: the chapters. So for example, we've got Wangang, who is

82
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,599
Speaker 3: not a household name the way Elon Musk is in

83
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,920
Speaker 3: terms of electric cars, but has plays a huge role

84
00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,360
Speaker 3: in ev development in China. Or we've got Brian E. Worthington,

85
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,760
Speaker 3: who was actually the very first guest on zero, who

86
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 3: was the lead author of the two thousand and eight

87
00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,440
Speaker 3: Climate Change Act in the UK. I'm curious what made

88
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,279
Speaker 3: you want to approach the book in this way where

89
00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 3: it's centered around people, instead of maybe looking at a

90
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,960
Speaker 3: different technology in each chapter, or even a company, or

91
00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:47,719
Speaker 3: even just telling the story linearly over time.

92
00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 1: Our driving force for the kind of journalism that I've

93
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,280
Speaker 1: kind of learned with Yukira, starting at Quartz and then

94
00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 1: now at Bloomberg Green has been to try and tell

95
00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,640
Speaker 1: stories that have not already been told, or tell them

96
00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,640
Speaker 1: in a way that has not already been done. Take

97
00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,240
Speaker 1: Bill Gates's How to Avoid a Climate Disaster, really good

98
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 1: book makes the case for what needs to be done

99
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 1: with some small case studies of what's already being done.

100
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,039
Speaker 1: Or This Changes Everything by Naomi Klein, which is in

101
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,400
Speaker 1: the subtitle The Climate Versus Capitalism, which is a rhetorical

102
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 1: powerful exposition of what's wrong with the system and why

103
00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 1: we must break it down. I wanted to take the

104
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 1: journalistic instincts of taking the story of ideally one individual,

105
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,359
Speaker 1: but then building out the context in which and the

106
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,280
Speaker 1: decades over which some of these stories play out. And

107
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,279
Speaker 1: my hope was that having the anchor person will allow

108
00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,800
Speaker 1: people to read those stories in a way that they

109
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,000
Speaker 1: won't get lost in the abstract ideas that are all

110
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: around us. To deal with the climate problem.

111
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,040
Speaker 3: It almost reminds me of when you're a kid and

112
00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,880
Speaker 3: you think politicians are just like such adults and like

113
00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,839
Speaker 3: these people that make all these huge decisions and the

114
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,120
Speaker 3: or you get you're like, right, they're just we're just

115
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:03,919
Speaker 3: humans all trying to figure it out. And they're just

116
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,880
Speaker 3: people now my age, with my level of expertise, shaping policy.

117
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:09,960
Speaker 3: And there's something a little terrifying about that, but there's

118
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,239
Speaker 3: as some comforting that these are human beings actively working

119
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 3: to solve these problems, who are really applying themselves to it,

120
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,600
Speaker 3: and they are turning me abstract into something quite tangible

121
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,279
Speaker 3: or you can affect change, and.

122
00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,720
Speaker 1: That their actions are directed but are also shaped by

123
00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,000
Speaker 1: the chance encounters and the chance events that they live through.

124
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,120
Speaker 2: Is there anyone in your mix of people?

125
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,800
Speaker 3: I know you don't want to choose a favorite child,

126
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,320
Speaker 3: but I'm curious of the people you spoke with or

127
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,279
Speaker 3: are focused on in the book, is there anyone you

128
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 3: think about the most often or you find yourself relaying

129
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 3: their story the most often when you're talking to other people.

130
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,240
Speaker 1: You already mentioned his name. It's one Gang really because

131
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,520
Speaker 1: it's sort of a character as a Chinese bureaucrat you

132
00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,719
Speaker 1: rarely hear about. You know, you probably are aware Chi

133
00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,360
Speaker 1: Jinping as the leader of the country, but you're unlikely

134
00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,360
Speaker 1: to know very much beyond that as a general news reader,

135
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,720
Speaker 1: and also one gang doesn't own a social media platform.

136
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 1: So you get this place where this individual within a

137
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,840
Speaker 1: system has made a huge impact on the EV transition,

138
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 1: getting the Chinese state to spend tens of billions of

139
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,160
Speaker 1: dollars in a decade to move the technology which we

140
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,520
Speaker 1: are all benefiting from. But people don't know who was

141
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 1: the driving force, what are the policies, what are the

142
00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,880
Speaker 1: massive changes that have allowed this to happen. So it's

143
00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,760
Speaker 1: the story I bring up very often. The other one

144
00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,120
Speaker 1: that I don't bring up that often, but I think

145
00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 1: about quite often is the story of Fati Birol. Fatti

146
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 1: Birol is the head of the International Energy Agency, and

147
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: in the sort of seven year period that I have

148
00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,520
Speaker 1: been a climate journalist, he's gone from being the character

149
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,360
Speaker 1: who was hated by the climate movement to being the

150
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,880
Speaker 1: character that is loved by the climate movement. That is

151
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,720
Speaker 1: reflected in how he approaches the problem. Even though you

152
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,400
Speaker 1: know he runs an international organization, you can see he

153
00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,400
Speaker 1: has really understood the climate problem and gone from this

154
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 1: energy agency that was built as an organization that was

155
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,640
Speaker 1: very fossil fuel oriented to being this organization that really

156
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,560
Speaker 1: wants to drive the energy transition.

157
00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 3: For me reading that chapter, and he was also a

158
00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:13,440
Speaker 3: guest on the pod, we have another person who is

159
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 3: a former zero guest. You're struck almost by how recent

160
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,520
Speaker 3: a lot of this evolution is happening, that it's all

161
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,640
Speaker 3: moving quite quickly, and that one agency is a good

162
00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,240
Speaker 3: sort of stand in for how quickly the conversation changes.

163
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,240
Speaker 3: I want to ask you about what I'm thinking of

164
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,760
Speaker 3: is like the thumbs that capitalism allows to be put

165
00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 3: on the scale outside of market forces. So I'm thinking

166
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,960
Speaker 3: about regulations, I'm thinking about subsidies, and as we've heard

167
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,080
Speaker 3: on the podcast very recently, I'm thinking about tools like

168
00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 3: shareholder activism, things you can do to affect change within

169
00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 3: a company. In your view, and having done all this reporting,

170
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 3: do you think that those tools are sufficient to sort

171
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 3: of check capitalism's most profit driven in individualism driven instincts.

172
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,560
Speaker 1: We can answer that in multiple ways. Right, there is

173
00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,640
Speaker 1: actually no one form of capitalism in the world. The

174
00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,440
Speaker 1: American capitalism is very different from the Indian capitalism very

175
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,800
Speaker 1: different from the Nordic capitalism to being very different from

176
00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 1: the Chinese capitalism, and each of those at the core

177
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,360
Speaker 1: of it have two tenets profit maximization driven in a

178
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:17,040
Speaker 1: competitive market. However, a market is never free. It's always

179
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 1: regulated in some form if you want a market to

180
00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 1: function and do the job it needs to do for society.

181
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,520
Speaker 1: And to what level that is regulated is different in

182
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,280
Speaker 1: different countries, and we can see there are benefits to

183
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 1: the level of regulation that may exist in a particular

184
00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:35,920
Speaker 1: circumstance versus another one.

185
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,839
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds like you're saying that you have

186
00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,040
Speaker 3: to shape the tools of capitalism to the society and

187
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,440
Speaker 3: like the system you're in, and it's all about the execution.

188
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, we probably will never have the perfect way of

189
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,640
Speaker 1: making capitalism work for the planet. But what we do

190
00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,080
Speaker 1: have is a series of experiments currently happening in different

191
00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 1: parts of the world. And what we can see is

192
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,559
Speaker 1: things that are working well in one part work well

193
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,160
Speaker 1: because of a certain mix of those tools. And something

194
00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,199
Speaker 1: I try and do in the book is to learn

195
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,120
Speaker 1: from the successes that are enabled in that context and

196
00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,920
Speaker 1: whether we can translate those successes in other places where

197
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,320
Speaker 1: maybe there is a different form of capitalism.

198
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,840
Speaker 3: So I think I agree with you that adjusting a

199
00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,280
Speaker 3: capitalist system at the margins, or sort of finessing the

200
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,920
Speaker 3: nuance of it, versus trying to overthrow it, is the

201
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,720
Speaker 3: logical move. But for fun, just for fun, I wonder

202
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,200
Speaker 3: what you'd say if we found out tomorrow that we

203
00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 3: actually have another century to deal with climate change. In

204
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,040
Speaker 3: other words, if we could somehow remodel our economic system

205
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,520
Speaker 3: and energy system at the same time, would you change

206
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:38,280
Speaker 3: your answer.

207
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,680
Speaker 1: In a way? We already ran that experiment, right, We

208
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 1: knew the science was pretty certain. Early nineties, mid nineties,

209
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,959
Speaker 1: the latest didn't really do very much. So as a

210
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,319
Speaker 1: society we chose not to. And sure you can blame

211
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,880
Speaker 1: certain actors in society directing this, but the end is

212
00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,640
Speaker 1: of we kind of choose. But if we do have

213
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,040
Speaker 1: another one hundred years and suddenly that is a possibility,

214
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 1: I think there are a few things we could do.

215
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,440
Speaker 1: One is we should not try and slow down the

216
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,640
Speaker 1: transition in the sectors that are already on the move.

217
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,720
Speaker 1: The move to electric cars is a really good one. Yes,

218
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,319
Speaker 1: we're going to need more metals, and that's a thing

219
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,760
Speaker 1: that we need to deal with but we will cut

220
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 1: air pollution in cities everywhere in the world, and that's

221
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,040
Speaker 1: a good thing, and you could do that for renewables.

222
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 1: It would be a much better world to have sources

223
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,960
Speaker 1: of energy distributed across the world rather than being concentrated

224
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,680
Speaker 1: in some places where you have to take a pipe,

225
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,720
Speaker 1: drill it down, get some black go out, ship it

226
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 1: to a refinery, put in tons of energy to try

227
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,640
Speaker 1: and draw out energy. It's just not a good system.

228
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,040
Speaker 1: But the biggest advantage we will get with time is

229
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,440
Speaker 1: not really to slow down the fossil fuel transition. It

230
00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,280
Speaker 1: is more that we'll have more time to do diplomacy right,

231
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 1: that we'll have more time for countries to actually come

232
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,679
Speaker 1: together and agree on something, or we'll have more time

233
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,920
Speaker 1: to find a way in which countries that are going

234
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,320
Speaker 1: to struggle can be uplifted and be brought along for

235
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,920
Speaker 1: the transition, rather than what is a reality for some

236
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,800
Speaker 1: countries getting drowned as sea levels rise.

237
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 3: I want to ask you one more question the sort

238
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 3: of high level macro capitalism conversation. And I don't want

239
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:27,520
Speaker 3: this question to come out wrong, So I hope you

240
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,400
Speaker 3: know that I love you, and I respect you, and

241
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 3: I don't mean anything by this, but do you think

242
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,160
Speaker 3: sometimes that you are too much of an optimist? Which

243
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 3: I asked because I said in the beginning, and I

244
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:39,680
Speaker 3: think it's true, you, more than anyone I know or

245
00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,200
Speaker 3: have worked with, have really helped me see that it

246
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,240
Speaker 3: is possible to reach net zero technically, scientifically, like all

247
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 3: of those things can fall in place, but we are

248
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,080
Speaker 3: off track to meet net zero by twenty fifty. We

249
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 3: are still in a place where the wealthiest one percent

250
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,480
Speaker 3: of humanity is responsible for as many emissions as the

251
00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:58,680
Speaker 3: poorest fifty percent.

252
00:12:58,920 --> 00:12:59,480
Speaker 2: We are not.

253
00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,720
Speaker 3: Really succeeding at the level that we need to. So, if,

254
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,400
Speaker 3: as you argue in the book, capitalism can solve the

255
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,360
Speaker 3: climate crisis, the biggest question is why does it seem

256
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,600
Speaker 3: to be failing at it.

257
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,320
Speaker 1: It might be to do with something in my brain

258
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 1: chemistry that I prefer to think this way, but I

259
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,560
Speaker 1: can also justify it. Right. It's not that I have

260
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,240
Speaker 1: an ideological stance of only writing about optimistic solutions, right.

261
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,840
Speaker 1: You know, as a journalist, I do all sorts of things.

262
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,400
Speaker 1: I write about problems, I write investigations exposing all the

263
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 1: flaws that companies have and people have. But I also

264
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,680
Speaker 1: think one aspect of journalism that is less celebrated, is

265
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,120
Speaker 1: less pursued, is to look at successes and what we

266
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,560
Speaker 1: can learn from them. So the optimism is kind of

267
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,960
Speaker 1: baked into doing the book because I wanted to focus

268
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,680
Speaker 1: on the successes. If I wanted to focus on the problems,

269
00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 1: that book's already been written. It's called The Uninhabitable Earth.

270
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,960
Speaker 1: And so I wanted to provide a narrative that would

271
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,520
Speaker 1: be more corrective to where we sit, where it feels

272
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,760
Speaker 1: like this problem is so big that we will not

273
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 1: be able to fight it, that we will not be

274
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,679
Speaker 1: able to solve it. And yet if you just look

275
00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 1: at the numbers, we are not on track for five

276
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 1: or six degrees celsius, a warming, which was within the

277
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,199
Speaker 1: realm of possibility as recently as twenty fifteen. And then

278
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 1: we sign the Paris Agreement, and now we're on track

279
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,400
Speaker 1: for three degrees celsius. It's not enough, but at least

280
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:24,840
Speaker 1: we may progress.

281
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 2: After the break.

282
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 3: How exactly is climate capitalism supposed to work? I want

283
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,000
Speaker 3: to dig into some of the mechanics here of marrying

284
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 3: capitalism and climate progress, and I'll start with a big question,

285
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,440
Speaker 3: which is, we have seen arguably a recent example of

286
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,520
Speaker 3: capitalism succeeding and failing at the same time, which is

287
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,760
Speaker 3: the COVID vaccine. So, with state support, we had private

288
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 3: companies that were able to develop vaccines extremely quickly, but

289
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,360
Speaker 3: the distribution was very, very unequal around the world. And

290
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 3: we see that with all kinds of tech, where poor

291
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 3: countries that would benefit from a quicker access ultimately don't

292
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 3: get it. Is it possible to address that type of

293
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 3: inequality within capitalist framework?

294
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,200
Speaker 1: The COVID example is such a good one. It's one

295
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 1: that we thought about as climate journalists at large as

296
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,760
Speaker 1: a good parallel. Shouldn't we think of what happened with

297
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,480
Speaker 1: COVID and apply it to climate And there are parallels

298
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 1: to be drawn, but they are not one to one.

299
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:37,120
Speaker 1: The COVID vaccine was created to deal with an emergency

300
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,560
Speaker 1: in the human timescale we think of emergencies. Right, climate

301
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,480
Speaker 1: emergency is also an emergency, but it's not on the

302
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,239
Speaker 1: same timescale as a COVID vaccine. Did science and technology

303
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 1: help us avoid what could have been an even worse disaster?

304
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: One hundred percent? Right? Take any other global dynamic of

305
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 1: this kind when you didn't have an mRNA vaccine, which

306
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 1: just won the Nobel Prize earlier this month. We would

307
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 1: not have been able to create a vaccine at the

308
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,800
Speaker 1: pace at which we did. So you can take some lessons,

309
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 1: which is technology can help, and that global diplomacy is

310
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 1: crucial in making a global problem solvable. But then with

311
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 1: climate change, we have time, not to say if you

312
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 1: have plenty of time or we have infinite time, but

313
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,760
Speaker 1: we have decades and that allows you to think about

314
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 1: that problem differently. In COVID, you kind of needed one

315
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 1: silver bullet solution, you needed a vaccine. In climate you

316
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,880
Speaker 1: don't have that shortcut. You need all kinds of solutions

317
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 1: to work, and that's a much harder problem in a

318
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: way than the COVID vaccine. In some cases, we also

319
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,680
Speaker 1: don't kind of have the technology at scale for some

320
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 1: of these problems to be solved. So the parallels exist,

321
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,720
Speaker 1: but not enough. And I don't think the failure that

322
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 1: was COVID or the success that was COVID, because you

323
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 1: can slice andize it either way, will determine whether we

324
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 1: solve the climate problem or not.

325
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 3: It's interesting that you fin I mean, obviously it's different timeframes,

326
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 3: but pandemic was three four years and the next ten

327
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 3: twenty years are like pretty important. You write in the

328
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,639
Speaker 3: book about how research development responds to like a brute

329
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,000
Speaker 3: force strategy that like something so important happens that everybody

330
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 3: mobilizes around something with such urgency that just like makes

331
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 3: it happen. And that is generally what happened with mRNA vaccines.

332
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 3: Don't we need a brute force moment for climate like

333
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 3: it does feel like if we could take a little

334
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,600
Speaker 3: of the urgency that was implied by the pandemic, it

335
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,600
Speaker 3: would be more effective, because, as you say, that is

336
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,959
Speaker 3: the thing that tends to move the ball forward on technology.

337
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 1: And we kind of have the brute force method in

338
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,680
Speaker 1: different places. A ban on selling fossil fuel cars by

339
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 1: twenty thirty five, which now exists in more than twenty

340
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 1: countries around the world, including most of the major car markets,

341
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,920
Speaker 1: is a brute force strategy, especially if you're a motorist,

342
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,000
Speaker 1: especially if you ask somebody who loves their gasoline car.

343
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 1: At some point we're going to have to talk about

344
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,200
Speaker 1: eating less meat. That's going to sound like a brute

345
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,680
Speaker 1: for strategy. And so yes, there are uncomfortable choices that

346
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 1: we have to make, and policy will have to play

347
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 1: a role there. If you talk to utilities, they're going

348
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,359
Speaker 1: to tell you. In the two thousands and twenty tens,

349
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 1: it was a brute for strategy to come in and

350
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,360
Speaker 1: say you need to have ten percent renewables in your

351
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,439
Speaker 1: mix by this date. Now they look back and they're like,

352
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,199
Speaker 1: of course, duh. It was so easy. But at the

353
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,879
Speaker 1: time they also had their lobby groups coming around and

354
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,879
Speaker 1: saying that's not good. We are not going to be

355
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 1: able to make that transition work. So yes, it's not

356
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,600
Speaker 1: a brute for strategy in the sense of a COVID

357
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,720
Speaker 1: vaccine that there will be a silver bullet solution, but

358
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: we are starting to apply some of those in many

359
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,720
Speaker 1: different parts of the transition. You could very well argue

360
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 1: not enough parts of the transition.

361
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,120
Speaker 3: Let's keep talking about timescale for a second. So also

362
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,400
Speaker 3: in the book, you write about how clean tech development

363
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,920
Speaker 3: basically operates on a longer timescale than most venture capital

364
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 3: and one of the chapters you go in depth on

365
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 3: Bill gates breakthrough energy mensures, which decided to work in

366
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 3: a twenty year timeframe instead of the typical ten years.

367
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,400
Speaker 3: What other aspects of traditional investing do you think need

368
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,120
Speaker 3: to be rethought here or are being rethought in an

369
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 3: era of clean tech being instead of internet companies. The

370
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 3: dominant thing that is getting a lot of investment.

371
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 1: A big missing one that I could not have written

372
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 1: a chapter on because there isn't a successful story around,

373
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 1: is how do you move large amounts of capital. We're

374
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 1: talking tens to one hundreds of billions of dollars from

375
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 1: developed country markets to developing country markets. If you look

376
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: at the energy transition today, you can slice the numbers

377
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 1: many ways, but one way in which you can do

378
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 1: it is see that develop countries are actually spending as

379
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 1: much as is needed on a net zero transition. They're

380
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 1: not spending it in the right way, not in the

381
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,919
Speaker 1: right places, they don't have the right policy mix available.

382
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 1: But in terms of pure capital, that money is starting

383
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 1: to flow in developed countries. The gap with developing countries

384
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: is massive, three, four or five times as much more

385
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 1: money is needed in developing countries, in the places where

386
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,200
Speaker 1: energy is not accessible to hundreds of millions of people,

387
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 1: in places where energy demand is growing, and in places

388
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: where you can't tell them not to use the fossil

389
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 1: fuels that they have in their ground, but you can

390
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 1: enable them to transition faster if you allow for money

391
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 1: to flow to places where solar is already the cheapest

392
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 1: source of electricity, except that all these cash bottlenecks and

393
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 1: other bottlenecks, but definitely cash as one bottleneck that needs

394
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 1: to be sorted, and there isn't a good solution. We're

395
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,400
Speaker 1: currently in that place where some experiments are happening. There's

396
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 1: the Just Energy Transition Partnership, which many of the G

397
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 1: seven countries are trying with South Africa, with Indonesia, with Vietnam.

398
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 1: They're messy, I know, working right now, but it's at

399
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: least one experiment in moving tens of billions of dollars

400
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 1: to these countries. We'll need many more of those.

401
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,679
Speaker 3: When I was trying to think about to answer this

402
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 3: question for myself, are there aspects of the investing mindset

403
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 3: that we would need to change for clean tech? One

404
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,400
Speaker 3: of the things that came to mind for me is failure.

405
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking here of Cylindro, which, for the listener,

406
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 3: Cylindro went bankrupt in twenty eleven, and it had received

407
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 3: this five hundred and thirty five million dollar loan from

408
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 3: the US Department of Energy, and it became this huge

409
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: talking point for why the Department of Energy should not

410
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 3: give out loans, even though the Department of Energy also

411
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 3: gave Tesla a big loan which worked out quite well.

412
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,200
Speaker 3: Do you think that there's a lower tolerance for failure

413
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 3: when it comes to clean tech, or at least a

414
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 3: quicker mindset to use a failure as emblematic of like

415
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 3: why this whole thing isn't worth doing.

416
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 1: I think the lower tolerance for failure exists because it

417
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 1: is easy to use that as a political wedge. It

418
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: is easy to point to a failure and say the

419
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: entire project is not working, even though if you actually

420
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,200
Speaker 1: analyze the US Department of Energy's loan program, it's been

421
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,679
Speaker 1: pretty successful, and so it is easy to turn the

422
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 1: failure of a clean tech company into a talking point.

423
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: What we do know just from entrepreneurialism one oh one

424
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: is that failure is baked into trying to solve a

425
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 1: hard problem, and so while politics can make it hard,

426
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 1: we should try and make space for more failure, both

427
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 1: on technology but also on policy. We need many more

428
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 1: experiments around the world trying different models for how to

429
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: rein in the excesses of capitalism so it can work

430
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: to tackle climate change.

431
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 3: Let me ask you for a second about entrepreneurs. I

432
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 3: want to talk about the people that are starting these

433
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 3: companies and developing these technologies. In reading the book, I

434
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 3: found it kind of striking how many of the people

435
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 3: we met who did not necessarily start out focused on

436
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 3: climate change or start out focused on solving for emissions.

437
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 3: They wanted to hedge against oil price spikes in the seventies,

438
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 3: or maybe they just thought, like, that's going to be

439
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 3: a big industry and I could make money in it.

440
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 3: I guess my first question is do you think this

441
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 3: is a feature or a bug? Like does it matter

442
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 3: if most of the entrepreneurs out there right now aren't

443
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 3: actually motivated by climate change specifically?

444
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 1: It's a feature of the moment in which we are

445
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: in the transition. I wasn't a climate journalist till twenty sixteen, seventeen,

446
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: and I am a climate journalist now. This is a

447
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: story that I've heard again and again over the past decade,

448
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: where people realize how big a problem this is, want

449
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: to do something about it, and finally find a place

450
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: in the energy transition. In the future, that may not

451
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: be the case, because we already have teenagers in schools

452
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: going out to strike wanting to work on solutions. But

453
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: is it a feature of a bug? I think it

454
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I think for entrepreneurs, they need to go

455
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: out and solve a problem that they are really passionate about.

456
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: And currently, it turns out society is making more entrepreneurs

457
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: care about the climate problem. That's a good place to be.

458
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 3: Also, someone that has written another book with youth climate

459
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 3: activists and has spent a lot of time talking to them,

460
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 3: and it sounds like you're saying, in twenty thirty years,

461
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 3: we will look back and see that actually a greater

462
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: share of people who got into this space did it

463
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 3: explicitly because they wanted to solve the problem of climate change.

464
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: Yeah right, rather than the transition that many of the

465
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: people I know today have made, which is they didn't

466
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: start working on climate, now they are working on climate.

467
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 3: Okay, let me bring this all back around to one

468
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 3: question for you, which is, let's come back to capitalism.

469
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: Everyone loves to hear that.

470
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 3: As we talked about a little bit, China, is this

471
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 3: really fascinating case study because it is dominant in several

472
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 3: aspects of clean energy, including solar manufacturing and electric cars,

473
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 3: and it is both communists and capitalistic, which Beijing artfully

474
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 3: refers to as capitalism with Chinese characteristics. So if we

475
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 3: roll with this idea, I want to ask you to

476
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 3: invent what I'm calling capitalism with climate characteristics. If we

477
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 3: had a system that was backed up by the larger

478
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 3: motivations of the planet, but was capitalist, what would that look.

479
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 2: Like to you.

480
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: It's never a good idea to make me dictator of

481
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: the world.

482
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: Just one country, okay, take over the world.

483
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: Or dictator of a country. In a way, the answer

484
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: is that we are already in that place where there

485
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: is capitalism with climate characteristics in different parts of the

486
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: world kind of forced upon you, right, Like climate impacts

487
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: are here, you've got to deal with them. And in

488
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: the US you're getting an Inflation Reduction Act, which is

489
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: a subsidy driven injection of capital into green solutions. In

490
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: Europe you're getting the Green Deal, which is a little

491
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: bit of subsidy but mostly direction and regulation and clarity

492
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: on where the money needs to be spent. And in

493
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: China you're getting a jingoistic to some extent, version of

494
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: climate capitalism, where China wants to build these green technologies

495
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,479
Speaker 1: as a way of being a leader in the world

496
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: taking advantage of it to provide the solutions that the

497
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: world needs. That's why we have Chinese solar panels dotted

498
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: all around the world. So is there one form of

499
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: capitalism or one set of solutions that will enable us

500
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: to make this work. I'm not so sure. I think

501
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: nobody currently has the solution, the perfect solution, And even

502
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: if we did have the perfect solution, as we did

503
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: during the COVID vaccine, we are not going to be

504
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: able to deploy it correctly because we're humans and re

505
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: fight and we gossip, and we don't do the things

506
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: that may seem the most economically rational thing to do.

507
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: But in that messyness of being human, I think we

508
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: are starting to move in a direction which is acknowledging

509
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: the problem that is climate change, acknowledging the opportunities that

510
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: it presents in creating a world that will not just

511
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: deal with the climate impacts coming our way, but also

512
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: be a better world. Getting rid of your fossil fuel car,

513
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: yes cuts down to your two emissions, but also cuts

514
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: air pollution. It's a really good thing. You should do

515
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: it even if there was no climate problem. And so

516
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: there are all these solutions that are going to just

517
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: make the world a better place, and it's starting to

518
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: happen again, not at pace, but at least there are

519
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: people working on it.

520
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: You also have this great sort of through line in

521
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,719
Speaker 3: the book that we sort of have decoupled in our

522
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 3: mind the economic forces and the climate forces, instead of

523
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: saying that the planetary motivations and the economic motivations are

524
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 3: the same. One of the chapters you talk about London

525
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 3: developing its sewer system, which is fantastic history, and you

526
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: have this quote from someone saying, untill people have the

527
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 3: idea that throwing CO two in the air is like

528
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 3: throwing poop in the street, We're not going to spend

529
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 3: what it costs. So until we see that we are

530
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,239
Speaker 3: compromising ourselves our health. But certainly like our economies with

531
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 3: the climate change, we're not going to put the money

532
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 3: that we need to solve the problem. So if we

533
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 3: could just put these ideas together, that capitalism with climate

534
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: characteristics is just capitalism if you really think about the

535
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 3: climate as a representation or something that has an impact

536
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 3: on the economy, we could do the mental math a

537
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: little bit better.

538
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 1: Yes, but always have people opportunistic enough to try and

539
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: take advantage and break that consensus. The UK is a

540
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: very good example of that. In the chapter I go

541
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: through the creation of the Climate Change Act as this

542
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: thing that has driven the country to become a climate

543
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: leader around the world, cut the most emissions amongst G

544
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: seven and G twenty countries. And yet today we are

545
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: led by a prime minister and a party that is

546
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: trying to water down, that is trying to find wedge issues,

547
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: to create false narratives around a meat tax or trying

548
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: to tell you not to have a fifteen minute liveable city.

549
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: It's just a way for politicians to try and get

550
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: some words here or there. And that's going to happen

551
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: right if it can happen in the UK, a country

552
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: where people understand climate change, where there's a political consensus

553
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: on trying to do something about it, and yet some

554
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: politicians in powerful places are going to do things to

555
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: try and slow down climate action. We are in for

556
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: a messy transition.

557
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: The book is out. You've been working on it forever.

558
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: How does it feel. How do you feel having this

559
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: finally out in the world.

560
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: It's such a long process, a really nice one, but

561
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: also you just never know whether it land by the

562
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: time it comes so I didn't know what it would

563
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: be like. When I actually held a copy in my hand,

564
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: and I will not lie, it did feel really satisfying.

565
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: I sat down then I was like, huh, it's real.

566
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I made this. I want to throw to you

567
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: the questions, which is, if you could put a billboard

568
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: outside of your house, what would it say. Surely you've

569
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 3: given this thought. You've asked it like twenty times.

570
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: No, I've given it no thought. I always go back

571
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 1: to what my dad told me. There is good in

572
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: every person in the.

573
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: World that's nice. Do you want know what mine is?

574
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: Please?

575
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: I would do my favorite line from your book. The

576
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: robots did their jobs naked, no additional content, just get

577
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: people thin. Thankin you know, while they're driving. Thank you

578
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: for listening to Zero. If you'd like to order a

579
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: copy of Akshot's book, there's a link in the show notes.

580
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: It will make you rethink where we're at on the

581
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 3: climate fight, and the book also makes for a great

582
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: stocking stuffer. If you liked this episode, please take a

583
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 3: moment to rate and review it, Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

584
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: or Spotify, Send it to a friend or a budding

585
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 3: climate capitalist. Get in touch at Zero pod at Bloomberg

586
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 3: dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer

587
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 3: is Christine driscoll. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly

588
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Anna Maserakas and Jilda de Carly.

589
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: I'm Kira Bendram and Zero will be back next week