WEBVTT - Keith Olbermann's Curious Course to Career Success 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.200 From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.880 succession planning. Corn Fairy can help you realize the full 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.879 potential of your people so you can take your business 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.560 where it wants to go up. Learn more at corn 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.279 Ferry dot com slash up. Keith Olverman you know him 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:21.040 from ESPN, if you watched Sports Center in the nineties, 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.520 or from his career as a commentator on MSNBC. This 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.560 week on Game Plan, we're talking about his drama filled 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.600 career where he got fired and rehired and apparently burned 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:46.960 bridges along the way. I'm Rebecca Greenfield, a reporter at 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.480 Bloomberg where I cover workplace culture, and I am Sam Grobart. 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.239 I am a writer at Bloomberg Business Week magazine. So 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:58.160 Keith Olrin's career from the beginning was filled with drama, Yes, 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.440 from day one, essentially. Yeah. When he worked at up 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.479 I Radio, he was almost fired and the only thing 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.520 that saved him, according to a New York article, was 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.360 his guild. Oh well, that's helpful. But he's continued this 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:17.520 pattern quite successfully of going places, being very successful, and 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:21.440 then getting very fed up, frustrated, some contention with his 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.720 bosses and bolting. Yeah, do we think it's useful to 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.720 just give like us quick rundown of the firings and hirings. 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:30.640 I mean we have to do all of no, no, no, 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:32.360 Here I can pick out some of the highlights, So 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:37.959 here we go. Berman joins ESPN, He's there for five 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:42.960 years when he leaves acrimoniously in He then goes over 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:47.160 to MSNBC, but leaves there two years later when he 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.160 joins Fox, but he's fired from there in two thousand one. 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.280 In two thousand three, he goes back to MSNBC, but 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.279 he's suspended from MSNBC in two thousand ten and leaves 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.440 in two thousand eleven. In July two thousand thirteen, he 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.600 goes back to ESPN. He leaves that network for the 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:08.520 second time two years later. Right, So what's crazy besides 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.440 that he's boomeranged around these various companies is also the 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:14.840 stories that have come out of this. When he left 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.320 ESPN that first time in seven there's a famous quote 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.600 saying he didn't burn bridges, he napalmed them like a 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:26.040 cool guy. Yeah yeah, And when he left Fox, I 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.320 believe Rupert Murdoch said he fired him because he's quote 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.360 crazy as opposed to all of the incredibly sane people 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.120 that Rupert Murdoch has kept in his employees. Yes, really 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:41.839 great point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe yeah, probably Yeah. 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.880 Olberman is is to the left of Rupert Murdoch, and 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.160 maybe that's why he thought he was crazy. Yeah, maybe 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.519 that's contributed a little bit to it. Um, but really 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.360 it's hard to work with. I guess the question is this, Yeah, 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.320 is he you know, should he be sort of um 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:01.600 lambasted or feared as a difficult person or should he 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:06.959 be sort of lionized for basically not giving a damn 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.280 in a good way and saying I'm going to do 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:11.600 what I do. I'm really good at it. If you've 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.840 got a problem with that, you can take this job 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.080 and shove it and finding another place where he can 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.480 continue to apply his craft. Yeah, as we were talking 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.520 about this, I definitely had a little bit of Oh, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.440 maybe he's my work hero, right, Maybe Keith Alberman is 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.560 sort of like what we all wish we could be, 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:33.680 which is apparently permanently employable, obviously very well compensated, and 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.480 with the kind of courage of his convictions to leave 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.520 a place when he starts to feel like things are 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.000 going south for him. Yeah, and he obviously is good 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.760 enough to get hired back from these same places. That's 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.360 what's crazy. It's not like he's just jumped and dumped 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.760 and dumped and dumped. He's he's so good in some 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.119 ways that ESPN or MSNBC want to have him back 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:57.160 even after reports of this friction, because whether he's Employee 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.920 of the Month or the world's worst coworker, the fact 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.560 remains Keith Olberman is a singular talent in broadcasting and 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.800 that presumably affords him second and third chances that most 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.480 of us would never get. Yeah, that's what we're going 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.560 to talk about with him today. Keith is here with us. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.920 He's our guest. He has a new web series at 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.640 with g Q. It's called The Closer, and we're going 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.200 to talk with him about that latest comeback and his 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:31.440 bumpy road to success. So why don't you start, Keith 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:33.960 by telling us about your latest role at g Q. 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.360 Um about August or so, I got a call from 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.600 an editor at g Q named Jeff Ganion who had 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:43.760 an idea that was similar one I did, which was, 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.320 we would be a good idea if I was doing 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:50.600 commentary on the campaign yeah, and I think ten days 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:52.960 later we posted the first of them, which is not 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.360 quite the record in my career for getting something started. 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.320 But what we posted a piece called hundred and seventy 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.839 six reasons Donald Trump should not be elected or cannot 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.440 be elected or however it has various titles, which has 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.800 been in the following ten days or so seen somewhere 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.440 around three and a half million times. So you made 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.800 the decisions so quickly to take the job, yeah, because 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.200 it was we knew going into this at both ends 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.120 of it that there was gonna be learning curves for 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.119 both g Q and for me. But on the other hand, 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.479 they weren't going to hold the election until we were 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.200 settled and ready to go. And I had talked to 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.440 a lot of people about doing something like this, and 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.640 most of them were just, well, we're at the cutting 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:35.320 edge of new media and we're going to do this, 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.479 and we're going to do that, but we can't move 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.760 quickly or anything. How About in January? And it's like, well, 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:44.640 look in January, maybe these commentaries won't be necessary or 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:46.919 legal by then. So it's one of those two options. 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:48.479 I'd like to just get on the air with it. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.080 Can we just get on the end. These these guys 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.080 had the same idea I did, and the premise of 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.600 it was similar to mine, which was, let's do it. 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.120 Let me ask you another question, based on the experience 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.720 you're having right now, do you think this is the 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.880 future of people like you and the work that you do, 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.360 which is to say, not necessarily being tied in a 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:12.320 very formal sense to one large entity. But you do 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.239 g Q through the election, then you do something else 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.279 for someone else, you know, by January, and you just 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.520 kind of it could go in that direct. Let me 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:23.039 put it to you this way. This is why I'm 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:25.120 I don't have a distinct answer for it, apart from 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:26.720 the fact that I can't see it clearly yet and 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.000 I don't think anybody can. The first thing that was 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.359 burned into my psyche when I started in the business. 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:36.080 The first two major national television organizations I worked for 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.320 did not exist the day I graduated college and where 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.080 the day I started in broadcasting. I started at network 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.120 Radio in New York, so I was, you know, already 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.600 the third or fourth level of the business. These places 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.760 didn't exist. I've been on the air longer than ESPN, 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.600 and that was the place I have the most success 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:58.000 except for CNN, which didn't exist, an MSNBC, which was 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.839 seventeen years away from exist. Thing, So you have to 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.320 adjust to it. If you're somebody who's working in the 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.560 industry and this is you know, the possibility that you 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.960 have a brand and then you marry your brand or 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.560 date your brand to somebody else's brand is absolutely a possibility, 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.360 and certainly we're doing that right now. Your career seems 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.320 particularly well suited for that because I changed a lot 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:25.840 over years because tattoos with with logos of companies. Yeah, 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.560 I mean, yeah, you're not particularly loyal to a specific company. Um, 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.240 You've also not always loyal when I'm there, don't don't 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.000 you know? I am actually a tremendous team player. It's 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.720 one of the unfortunate things. You can't really convince anybody. 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:40.720 How many teams have you played for? Yeah, but I 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.760 was a team player for all those teams. But go ahead, 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:47.040 I'm sorry, Well, you've you've been asked a large audience already. Yeah, 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.560 it's five and a half million as of the first 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.760 six commentaries and one interview, which is a lot from 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.200 a from a from a dead stop, right, I mean, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.720 we just there was nothing. This did not exist on 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.400 Labor Day at all. Yeah, but I mean, we're build 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:01.880 an audience. That's a really hard thing to do when 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.720 you're just some people. Have you always had that view 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.480 on your career, like I'm going to build an audience 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.640 for me. I'm in this for my own personal growth 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.640 only in the sense of that old philosophy that is, 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.000 if it does not interest you, it cannot possibly interest 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.920 the person you're talking to. In other words, I never 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:26.080 associated the salary with the work or how much effort 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:27.960 I should put into it, or what it should look like. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.320 And I never I mean, the venue is sometimes important. 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.560 You reflect to some degree who you're working for, and 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.280 there are rules in some places that don't exist in others. 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.600 I always thought that I had an obligation to myself 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.560 more than anything else, to do it in a way 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:49.440 that matched my standards, And I would often get into 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.040 conflicts with management places that didn't have the same standards, 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:54.800 and I would be saying, I don't think we should 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:56.840 do this, I don't think it's journalistically correct, and then 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.600 they would say, well, you don't make that decision here, 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.600 and I would say, well, I do make one decision here, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.000 and then it go to somewhere else. If you're working 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.640 just to be on so you can say at the 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:09.720 end of the day, I work for such and such, 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:14.280 forget it. I mean, there will be trained artificial intelligences 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.560 who can take that job. You will be competing with 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.679 the machine that never stumbles on the air. And I mean, 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.959 if you're just going to be a voice, if you're 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.640 going to have a set of codes and a point 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.120 of view. I think, no matter what the medium turns 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.679 out to be, even if we're speaking telepathically to the audience, 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.079 eventually and there's no equipment required to except a small 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.040 chip here in one of your teeth, that will always 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.560 be in demand. And it will also if you stick 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.120 to that, it will also be every work experience will 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:46.080 be valuable in someone. You talk about the relationship that 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.120 you've had with some of your employers, how you will disagree. 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.920 You have the option to leave. Obviously you have done that. 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.280 Was that always true for you from the beginning or 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.720 did you come into that understanding later on in your career, 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.800 and if so, what was that education. I was also 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.480 like this as a child. Yeah. Now, I I tell 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.920 you this is very interesting because my father, who had 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.120 one full time two full time jobs in his life, 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.200 and the rest of his career worked freelance. Said to 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.120 me once I was leaving. My first job was at 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:21.000 United Press International. That's how old I am. And when 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:22.760 I left, the guy said, why are you leaving? I said, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:24.840 because the way you treat the younger people here, the 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.640 place isn't going to exist in ten years. And he said, oh, 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.200 what do you think? There will always be a u 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.040 p I. Within ten years, I was on TV and 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:37.400 he was managing a restaurant in Katona, New York. Anyway, Yes, 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:39.640 and he's a great guy too, but there just wasn't 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:41.400 a job for him. And he also it was he 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.400 had enough of radio, so he left and was a manager. 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.680 And I was going to leave, and I had two choices, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.200 and I wasn't sure because this was u p I. 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.440 It had been in its two originators of United Press 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.880 and News International, had been around since the nineteenth century. 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.080 And the place I was going to have been around 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.920 for sixteen months, and it was more money and sleeker 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.800 studios and less work, and it was a brand new 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.240 thing and it's like a young adult audience and all 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:07.920 the rest of that. And I still had a little 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.800 hesitation in doing it. My father said, this is the 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.200 first job you've ever been offered and I said no. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:14.959 He said, what was that other thing last year that 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.080 you didn't take? That I wanted you to go to Boston? 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.440 I said okay. He said, so that's you had, the 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.520 one you got, the one in Boston, and this that's three. 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.280 I said yeah. I said how old are you? I said, 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:26.959 I think you should know this and he said how 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:28.839 old are you? I said, I'm gonna be twenty two 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.400 next month. He said, so you think these are the 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.440 last three jobs you're ever going to be offered? And 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:36.400 I said no. He said, then what are you worried about? 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.120 This doesn't work? Get something else. By that point, I 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:41.839 had already had more jobs than he'd had. So I 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:44.040 don't know where this wisdom came from, but it's always 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.000 stuck with me. And I just think that's a good 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.440 way to operate, and many people can't, and I don't 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.680 criticize them for doing so. I don't think I'm better 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.880 than they are. I'm either smarter or much much stupider, 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.320 and and it probably both. And it's probably also just 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.439 to set a circum stances that I just I've never 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.480 never sought security, and I've never wanted to compromise in 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.920 exchange for security, and that often comes across as there's 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.839 a bad employee in that sense. Yeah, I mean you're 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:12.840 going to You're going to get what you get, and 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.199 I am going to do what I think is appropriate. 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.319 And trust me, I have compromised a thousand times. It's 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.400 not I don't, it's not I won't, it's this is fine. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.400 These firmpromises are fine. Number one is where I draw 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.640 the way. Yeah, I think that's worth pointing out that, 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.240 you know, some people do have to compromise and some 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:32.880 people are risk averse for other reasons. And maybe I 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:34.520 don't know if you believe this, but do you think 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.120 it's also particular to the profession that you or we 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.760 are in, where all these things we're talking about about 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:44.520 building a brand and skills are transferable and yeah, yeah, right, 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:46.880 the advantages that you are likely to rise in this 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:50.200 in any kind of medium format and any kind of 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.959 media format based on whether or not you have a 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.559 personal appeal to the audience, and it's not it's not. Well, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.600 we like generic announcer number thirty two and he fits. 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.000 He's new generic announcer number thirty two. It's not a 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:07.400 character that's written for you. You You know, it's not Elizabeth, 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.920 my friend, Elizabeth Montgomery's husband on Bewitched, who suddenly was 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.360 a different guy in September, and I was like, no, no, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.640 there's nothing to all the characters are behaving like there's 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.559 nothing wrong here, and he's just regenerated like doctor Who. 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.280 But you know that's fine. It's not like that. You 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.480 are yourself and that is that is the brand. And 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.199 the other thing I would point out in my defense 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.439 in terms of this, it's not strategy, just it's a 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:34.920 reflection of my personality. I have had my national television 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:41.080 employers have been CNN, ESPN, MSNBC, and Fox and Current 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.160 if you want to count that. The Current doesn't exist anymore. 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.640 So that's not possible. Four television networks that I've had 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.480 some success at, and I've gone back to work a 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:53.360 second and in one case a third time with three 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.760 of them. So I went back to mss NBC, I 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:57.760 went back to See and and I went back to ESPN. 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.679 And it wasn't me going can I please come back? 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.439 It was a mutual decision. So there is in all 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.600 the sort of wander lust quality to it, and it's 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.319 not very usual that you go back to a former employer, 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.080 especially when you have a reputation of burning down bridges. 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.400 It's like, that's just that's just for show, so that 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:16.880 when you leave someone it's like, so I didn't like 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:20.160 that girlfriend anyway. It's the business equivalent of that. Ap 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.920 happens when the power and potential of every employee and 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.400 leader in your workforce is released, and corn Ferry can 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:31.280 get you there by aligning your people to your strategy, attracting, developing, engaging, 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.720 and rewarding them to reach new heights. With corn Ferry, 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.880 you get a partner who truly understands people, leadership, and 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.480 the new landscape of work, a partner who knows how 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.560 to take your business up. Learn more at corn Ferry 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.960 dot com slash up. Do you ever think back on 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.040 the different places that you've worked and wish they try 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:54.200 to remember them? Right? Okay? Do you ever have any 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:58.000 any regrets? Sir? Wish that maybe absolutely. My going back 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.560 to work for ESPN the second time was instibly to 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.720 change the ending of that experience because I did not 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.160 think I had behaved particularly maturely, and I thought looking 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:12.000 and particularly reading about how it was, seeing twenty years 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.680 later that there needed to be a different ending to it. 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.640 I think I succeeded accomplishing that. I would never go 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.040 back and say that the opinions that I took my 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.560 stances on were wrong, but there was absolutely no reason 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.240 for me to have done certain things about them, like 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.480 in a couple of cases going public. Certainly, you know, 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.280 the twelve thirteen page memos that I would slip under 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.800 my boss's door before going home at midnight probably were unnecessary. 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:37.240 And they look at this thing and I I, oh, we 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.000 hate this guy. This is really well written. It's just 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.560 it's a mixed message. I could have just had a conversation, 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.520 and that was largely why I went back there, and 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.680 other cases where you sit there and you learn from it. 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:48.720 If you don't learn from something constantly, I mean, there 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.800 are mistakes I made in at at ESPN the second 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:53.720 time that I learned from And I was, you know, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.520 fifty six years old when I was when that show ended, um, 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.440 and there were mistakes that they made to which they 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:01.200 may or may not have learned from. See, I'm still 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.480 doing it so as someone I'm younger, younger than both 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.440 of you, and if I want to learn something from you, 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.680 and you know, you're talking about doing what you believe 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.320 in and sticking to your conscience, but now you're saying 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:15.840 that there are also things that you shouldn't have done. 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.520 You could have acted more mature. So what advice would 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.000 you give? Never put it on paper? I mean, that's 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.880 a good that that sounds like either paranoia or a cliche, 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.480 but it's there's a permanence to it that you may 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.920 not be intending as you write it. And this also 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.480 goes for texts and emails and just use paper generically. 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.400 You may not want it to be preserved forever in 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.160 a large main frame under the Kremlin. I mean, you 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.320 don't know where that's going to be. And I always 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.680 as the longer I got into it, the more computer 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.200 materials came in. More I began to think, is it 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.360 a good idea? And I would type all these memos 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.600 on my home computer and just print them out. But 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.120 even then it's something that you would say and you go, no, 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.600 that's not exactly what I meant, and it's gone and 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.040 there's no reason to That's the easiest one. It's just 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:09.600 don't just sit down and say, here are my reservations 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.000 and if you if you read from note cards or 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:13.960 you read from what it is that you had written 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.159 in anger. And the other one is always if you 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.159 can wait till tomorrow to do it, wait till tomorrow 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.119 to do it. Those are the two simplest things and 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.919 the only other general advice in terms of succeeding that 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:25.560 there's two things I always heard. One of them is 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.840 becoming less and less important. But the first one is 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.760 if you want to go and be involved in media 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.040 in some way, you have to be able to do everything. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.160 If you have to be able to be in print, 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.560 you have to be able to be on the spoken 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.439 form in one way or the other, podcast, radio, internet, whatever. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:42.879 And you have to be able to be on video 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.560 on camera in some way and be able to at 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.280 least press the button to record the video. You must 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.080 do all these things, and you know that's that's it's 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.240 if there's another dimension that we haven't thought of yet, 0:17:55.440 --> 0:18:00.560 learn how to do that too. Snatch up. Yeah. Absolutely. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.800 Another question I have was that despite all of the 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.840 turmoil that you've had another at some of your jobs, 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.080 are you happy with your career? Yes, Oh, I I 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:14.760 achieved everything I intended to achieve at least fifteen years ago, 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.040 possibly longer, everything that I had set out, and I 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.119 literally other kids had day dreams of, I don't know what, 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.359 being Donald Trump or something. I know what the average 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:26.639 day dream was for a kid of my age in 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.760 the seventies. But I actually thought, maybe be great. What 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.399 if there was an all news television station and an 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.359 all sports television station, and I'd like to work for 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.399 them both. And I'd like to be involved in the 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.080 baseball broadcasts, and I'd like to cover the Super Bowl, 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.800 and I'd like to if it's plausible, I'd like to 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:47.000 get involved in the presidential inauguration press well by by 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.199 by two thousand and nine, I had hosted all of 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.640 these things, including a World Series between the two New 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.600 York teams, which is by itself, I hope I've lived 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.280 to see that. I was literally standing on the field 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.840 at Yankee Stadium introducing Game one of the World Series 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:01.840 when it suddenly dawned on me that if I did 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.760 not stop talking, they would not get to play. I 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.000 was to introduce the p A announcer Bob Shepherd, wh 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.159 would then introduce the players. If I just kept talking, 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.560 I was holding up this World Series was a great 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.159 powerful moment as long as you understand you have to 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.840 relinquish that fanciful power immediately. So I got everything done. 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.280 So yes, absolutely no question of it. When you start 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.240 a new job, do you start it in a particular way. 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.200 I'm asking this. I'm thinking in my position, which is 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.760 sort of very mid level. I come into a new job, 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.680 I kind of lay low for a little yeah, yes, 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.040 and then I sort of figure out what's what an 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.120 hour or two? Yes, okay, before breaking any heads. Yes, 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.200 now that would be there. That would be the assumption. 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.159 It's it's an organic part of the process. You can't 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.680 know where everything is, you can't know who everybody is 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.280 by name. You have to have help very often going 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.199 where's the door in this room? I know there is 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.760 one I came in, but you you will absolutely need 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:00.680 to be guided around for a long period of time. 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.520 And that's a good time to be a little less obstreperous, 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:06.359 because otherwise they'll just leave you and they'll tell you 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:08.159 that the studios over here, when in fact that's the 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.080 closet and you're you're late for the show. So yeah, 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:13.520 there there is to some degree a sort of toning 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:16.680 down you do have to go and correct people's impressions. 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.360 The one thing, unfortunately about having a reputation, whether it's 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:22.720 is the greatest person in the world or the worst, 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.439