1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short Stuff. I'm Josh, there's Chuck. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Jerry's here too, Dave's hear and spirit. This means it's 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: short stuff. 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about the peace sign today. This was 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 2: put together by a guy named Josh Clark. 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: No, this is from Jesselyn Shields at how Stuff Works. 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: That's right. I was just kidding around. Oh okay, or 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 2: actually I was serious. But as I was saying it, 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: I noticed I was wrong. 10 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: Wow, this is try to play already, stop laughing. 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: But we're talking. That's right. We're talking about the peace sign, 12 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 2: the very familiar circle with the one vertical line straight 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: down the center and then the two lines branching off 14 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: at forty five degree angles. 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: The peace sign. Everybody, come on, you never know. I mean, 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: it's everywhere, It's been everywhere. And weirdly, Chuck, it's not 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: that old, actually, which I guess isn't that we I 18 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: think it's actually weird that it's older than I thought 19 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: it was. How about that? Okay, all right, let's get 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: into it. 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: Let's get into it. Because it didn't start out when 22 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: the gentleman who created it, one Gerald Holtom. He didn't say, hey, 23 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 2: this is a peace sign everybody. He was a British artist, 24 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: he wouldn't have said it like that anyway, he would 25 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: have had an accent. And he was an activist, and 26 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 2: he was a conscientious objector of World War two. And 27 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: it was a time in the nineteen fifties when he 28 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: was doodling around when people were worried. This is post 29 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: World War two, and the US dropped two atomic bombs 30 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: on Japan, and the you know, sort of peace micks 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: of the world where like, hey, this cannot stand man, 32 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: we don't want anyone to do this ever again. And 33 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: so some groups started forming to try and counter that. 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, specifically, there was a group called the Direct Action 35 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: Committee against Nuclear War, a group of pacifists. At the time, 36 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: this is the late fifties, this is pre hippie, but 37 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: these people definitely prefigured the Hippies who were soon to come. 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: But they were legitimately worried about a world where not 39 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: just one but two and then now three at the 40 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: time nations had nuclear weapons that they were stockpiling, and 41 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: they ended up co founding with some other groups, the 42 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: Campaigned for Nuclear Disarmament that just basically said let's just 43 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: get rid of these things. It was. You thought it 44 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: was a good idea, you tried it, it turned out 45 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: to be a horrific idea. Let's stop doubling and tripling 46 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: and quadrupling down on this and let's just get rid 47 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: of them altogether. 48 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 2: That's right. That's a group that's still around today, which 49 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: is pretty great. And one of the first big things 50 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: they did was organized in march in London from Trafalgar 51 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: Square about fifty two miles or in this case eighty 52 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: three clicks away to Aldermiston where they had a facility 53 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: that was producing nuclear material, and Holtam said, you know what, everybody, 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: we need a logo. 55 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: They did. I guess he probably sounded a little bit 56 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: like that, like the Sheriff of Nottingham. 57 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: Okay, that's very kind of you. 58 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: So he came up with this this peace sign for 59 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: the event for that march, and I've seen two different 60 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: competing explanations of that design, and I don't know if 61 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: it was just coincidence or what. But he said later 62 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: on in a letter to somebody the artists himself, David 63 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: or Gerald Holton, said that it was meant to be 64 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: a kind of stylized minimalist version of a person in despair, 65 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: standing there with their arms out to their sides downward, 66 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: in their palms facing out, and he says, like in 67 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: the manner of a Spanish peasant being executed by a 68 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: firing squad, and a Goya painting is a very famous 69 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: Goya painting of a peasant being executed by a French 70 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: firing squad. But he has his hands up in the air, 71 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: he doesn't have them downward. So I don't know what 72 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: Gerald Holton was talking about. The one that makes way 73 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: more sense since he was creating this for the Campaign 74 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: for Nuclear Disarmament. It was actually also called the CND 75 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: logo that it was Actually it's it's a semaphore. It's 76 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: a combination of semaphores. That' SAM for N and D. 77 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 2: That's right, And a semaphore is a is basically an 78 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: alphabet that you use flags. And this is before you 79 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: could communicate via you know, short short distance radio. Like 80 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 2: you see people out on the tarmac. They're waving those 81 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: flags around and they're not just saying like over here, 82 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: over there, you can actually spell things out. 83 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: By over there. That's exactly right. 84 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: Uh yeah, but that's what they're doing. It's it's a 85 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: it's a way of communicating over a long range where 86 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 2: you can't hear somebody. 87 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: Yes, So the the N, which for nuclear is two 88 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: lines that basically come apart at a forty five degree 89 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: angle away from the guy holding or the person holding 90 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: the semaphores right right, So they're standing there straight as 91 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: an arrow with their arms out to their sides downward 92 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: holding the flags. That's N. You're spelling an N if 93 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: you do that right. If you want to do a D, 94 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: you hold one flag straight up in the air, one 95 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: flag down, maybe throw your head back all a flashdance 96 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: just for a little extra touch, and you're spelling a 97 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: D for disarmament. So if you put that in a circle, 98 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: but you have friends, is the peace sign aka the 99 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament logo. 100 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: And that could be coincidence? Is that what we're saying here. 101 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: It's not possible, it's coincidence. 102 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So what are you saying then? That Holt them 103 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: was just. 104 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: I don't know if he was misquoted, if he'd forgotten. 105 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: I just don't understand the Goya thing because it doesn't 106 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: even show up in a Goya painting. 107 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just looked up the paint. He's definitely got 108 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 2: his arms up. 109 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no mistaking it. I mean maybe if you 110 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: turned him upside down, but no. 111 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 2: So the they made these badges out of white clay 112 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: that they had baked, and the message was basically, if 113 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: there was a nuclear war, these badges would be one 114 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: of the few things left behind that would survive. You know, 115 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: that's fine, But the symbol I think was enough. It 116 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: was very simple, it was very easy to reproduce, and 117 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: very key. Before he take the break, we will mention 118 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: that Holtam did not copyright this thing because he wanted 119 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: it spread far and wide, and that's exactly what happened. 120 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. I was going to suggest we left it as 121 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: a cliffhanger whether he copyrighted it or not, but I 122 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: think you made the right decision. 123 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: All right, then let's say this. Did he copyright it, 124 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: Let's find out after the breakup. 125 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: So we said that these pacifists that were into nuclear 126 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: disarmament in the late fifties prefigured the hippies, and they 127 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: definitely didn't. What's interesting is the peace symbol is a 128 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: direct connection between those two groups. Because oh, we didn't 129 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: say Gerald Wholsome did not copyright his creation. It was 130 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: free for anybody to use, and he did that on purpose. 131 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: That was a very deliberate thing for him to do, 132 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: because at first he was spreading this message for nuclear disarmament, 133 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: but as the hippies kind of adopted it and took 134 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: on more and more other stuff that they wanted to 135 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: see changed for the better, the peace I kind of 136 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: morphed and evolved from a symbol that everybody recognize meaning 137 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: nuclear it's or meant to one that meant just peace 138 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: in general, a whole catch all is what it became expanded. 139 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: That's right. 140 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: And like we said many times already, he didn't copyright 141 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: this thing, so it was very easy to distribute without 142 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: having to worry about, you know, fear of legal repercussions 143 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: or paying somebody for its for its use. So all 144 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: of a sudden it was, you know, it was all 145 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: over the place and just became ubiquitous and tied to 146 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: this idea of peace, which you know, peace and anti 147 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: nuclear war is not the biggest leap, but it was 148 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: definitely not the peace sign until Vietnam came around. 149 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also kind of expanded to be a symbol 150 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: for the struggle to be recognized and treated equally like 151 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: women's rights movements, environmental movements, the apartheid anti apartheid movement 152 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: all adopted the peace symbol. The ruling part of South 153 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: Africa tried to ban it in fact, yeah, and that 154 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: did not take And Gerald Holton, for his part, he 155 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: wanted the peace symbol on his headstone and he didn't 156 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: get it. I don't know why I just spoiled that, 157 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: but it seems weird to me. Like if you say 158 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: I want something on this on my headstone, there are 159 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,599 Speaker 1: very few cases where I think people should be like, no, 160 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: we're not going to put that headstone. But he wanted 161 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: an inverted peace symbol in the in the manner of 162 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: Agoya peasant being executed exactly. 163 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 2: He was like, instead of hands down, it should be up, 164 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: like symbolizing growth and like a you know, the tree 165 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 2: of life where mankind lives. And I guess whoever was 166 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 2: in charge of his funeral said. 167 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: Nah, right, I'm sick of that stupid symbol. 168 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: Very strange. 169 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: There's one other thing we got to throw in, and 170 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: that's the Mercedes Ben's logo. 171 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you can't go to Atlanta Falk's football 172 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: game without seeing that peace sign there on the stadium. Yeah, 173 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: I'd kind of wondered about this, but obviously I didn't 174 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: put too much thought into it because I knew that 175 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: the Mercedes Benz company had been around long before the 176 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, and that was the case. 177 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: It was first, it was it was actually the Daimler 178 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: brothers adopted it as a logo. They adapted it from 179 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: a postcard their father had sent them, and their home 180 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: had been marked on the postcard with a three pointed 181 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: blue star. They're like, let's make that our logo, which 182 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: is sweet and wholesome until you realize what the three 183 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: points of the star stand for the company's dominance of 184 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: products for use on land, see and air, which is 185 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: not exactly peace symbolish, so it's not at all related. 186 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: That's right, Chuck said, that's right. I'm out of stuff 187 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: to talk about, so short stuff's out. Stuff you should 188 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: know is a production of iHeartRadio. 189 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: More podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 190 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.