WEBVTT - Wikipedia Is All The Web Has Left ft. Molly White 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:07.400 All Zone Media. Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:22.000 your host ed zetron. Wikipedia is a free online encyclopedia 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.520 used by over a billion people a month, one that, 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.680 despite being maintained entirely by an army of free and 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.320 at times anonymous contributors, remains one of the most reliable 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.320 sources of information on the Internet. Wikipedia's sixty two million 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:39.000 articles are edited by over one hundred thousand contributors, and 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.199 these contributors have somehow done a better job maintaining the 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.320 quality and validity of the information than any of the 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:50.200 information provided by any of the major platforms today. Wikipedia 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:54.480 is funded entirely through the Wikimedia Foundation, a nonprofit organization 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.120 funded through public donations and grants, and has the staff 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.200 of over seven hundred people. Yeah, and I'll thank you. 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.880 Most people have absolutely no idea how intricate the webs 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:07.480 encyclopedia is. And today I'm joined by Gorilla Warfare, a 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.319 Wikipedia editor that's made over one hundred and thirty thousand 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.600 edits in the span of eighteen years across two accounts. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.920 You'll likely know her better as researcher and critic Molly White, 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.400 the creator of the Citation Needed newsletter and web three 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:27.640 is going great. All right, Molly, thank you for joining me, 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.800 Thanks for having me. So, I don't know how I 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.520 was to ask this book, Why should people actually care 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:36.000 about Wikipedia today? 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.200 Well, I mean, I think Wikipedia is one of the 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.319 highest quality resources there is on the web today. I 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:48.080 think everyone uses it sometimes without even realizing it. Given 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:53.600 that Wikipedia data powers so much of you know, AI chat, 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.920 GPT responses or home assistants that are answering your questions 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.080 or sirie. So I think keeping the quality of information 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.640 on Wikipedia high, or even improving it even further, is 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:08.720 one of the most important things that we need to 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:09.520 be focusing on. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.160 But one of the big critiques of it. And I know, 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:15.480 and this is very much a podcast for people who 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.959 might be techy, but people also who are just being 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:20.960 exposed to tech outside of the consumer realm. How is 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:23.840 it reliable? Because that is the big that's the big question. 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.080 How is this something you can trust? 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:28.919 Well, I think, like a lot of things, you need 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:30.960 to take it with a grain of salt and understand 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:35.880 that there is variation on Wikipedia between you know, some 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.960 very high quality articles that have been reviewed by hundreds 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.360 of people versus some that are fairly new and you know, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.440 being created still. So I think it's important to realize 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.040 that there is the possibility that whatever you're reading is 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.880 not reliable, and there is some onus on the reader 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.600 to verify that what they're reading is correct. But I 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.880 think that generally speaking, the quality control and Wikipedia is 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.519 actually pretty good. There are a lot of editors who 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:09.120 are constantly maintaining the platform, making sure that the material 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:13.200 on there is you know, well sourced, it's coming from 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:18.080 high quality, reputable publications, and that you know, it is 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.600 meeting the criteria that Wikipedia puts in place. And I 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.360 think the result of that is that the content on 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.760 Wikipedia tends to be very high quality. 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.040 And how does the actual moderation work, So what goes 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.200 into a Wikipedia page? 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:37.160 Well, it's a little bit ad hoc. There's not really 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:41.160 a process in which every page has to go through 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:45.960 a set of criteria or anything like that. Generally speaking, 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.920 anyone can edit Wikipedia and you know, contribute to the 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:54.200 best of their ability, and when someone does something that 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.600 is not in line with Wikipedia's requirements, then hopefully, you know, 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.000 the idea is that hopefully someone will come along and 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.800 notice that, revert the change or improve it. So that 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:08.000 it does meet the criteria. And I realize that sounds 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.400 very like slap dash, and it is to some extent, 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.960 but because of the sort of processes that have developed 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.320 over the years, it actually works pretty well. Where most 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.599 pages do you get you know, a fairly strong set 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.719 of people who are you know, taking a look at 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.320 the changes that are coming in, making sure that they 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:33.120 are appropriate for the encyclopedia and you know, allowing them 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:36.760 to remain or you know, discussing them and reverting them 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:37.599 if necessary. 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.200 Talk to me a little bit about that process though. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.560 What happens well someone you know, if someone goes and 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.200 makes an edit to a page. Generally speaking, there are 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.600 you know a fair number of people who are patrolling 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.600 recent changes to the encyclopedia, you know, not necessarily even 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.320 watching that page specifically, but just looking at new edits 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:01.760 that are coming in and you know, checking them for reliability. 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.080 You know, is there a source included, does the edit 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.680 past this, you know, the smell check. There's also some 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.560 automated processes involved that will try to filter out edits 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:17.359 that are abusive or you know, match certain patterns. And 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.039 then there's the you know, there's a lot of editors 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.360 who have you know, various pages that they're interested in 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.159 or they have expertise in on what's called their watch list, 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.040 and so they take a look at changes to those 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.240 pages every once in a while and see if you know, 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:35.279 everything looks all right or if there needs to be 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.760 improvements or edits to you know, what's been added to 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.400 bring them back into line with the quality that we expect. 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.839 So is there an organization? I know there's the Wikimedia Foundation, 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.120 we know that, but is there is there a moderate 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.880 to chat? Is there a place where people congregate or 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.120 is this just entirely I don't want to say decentralized, 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.240 but disorganized. 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.840 Well, it's certainly disorganized there. Yeah, so there are there 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.719 are actually kind of a bunch of places where people congregate, 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.599 and some people use some of them and some people don't. 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:14.880 But you know, there's there are various places on the 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.919 encyclopedia that are you know, project specific pages where people 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.200 discuss issues that are coming up or flag you know, 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.000 things that need more attention. You know, not everyone has 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.000 like the ability, for example, to block an editor who's 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.960 being disruptive, So editors who can't do that themselves will 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.400 report it for people who can and then there's you know, 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:40.040 more real time places like we still use IRC, believe 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.440 it or not, but there's also. 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.640 For that and for listeners. By the way, IRC is 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:47.960 what a thirty year old sharewab product. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.640 Yeah, it's basically one of the first online chat protocols. 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:57.320 I was a polarist IRC guy. But for listeners as well, 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:01.120 discord is very very much I believe Discorde is actually 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.560 somehow built on IOCA. That's a different episode thought. 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.000 I'm not sure if it actually is or if it 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.120 just interoperates well with it. But there's also a Wikipedia 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.040 Discord now for people who don't want to go figure 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.040 out how IRC works. So you know, there's a bunch 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:18.720 of different places where people can chat and talk about 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.360 working on the project, different formats. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.560 And there's no compensation of any kind. 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.280 Correct, not unless you are, you know, an employee of 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.280 the Wikimedia Foundation, who is you know, writing the actual 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.800 media wiki software or you know, performing one of those tasks. 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.760 But that's a very small organization in comparison to the 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.000 number of people who edit the encyclopedia, the vast majority 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:45.600 of whom do so for you know, for free. Technically, 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.600 you there are some people who edit Wikipedia articles for 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:51.880 pay as a part of like PR strategies and stuff. 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:56.360 But that's a whole can of worms and it's somewhat controversial. 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.560 Well, that's actually a good question. So I run a 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:01.840 p off and I know that that people will come 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:03.560 along on both sides and say, can you get me 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.440 a Wikipedia page? And then others will say for this 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.600 incredibly large sum of money, I can do this for you. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.040 And it feels like those people are fighting a losing battle. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:18.480 It's one of the rare cases where capitalism can't really win. 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.280 And how is it that Wikipedia is so resistant to 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:22.160 that kind of stuff? 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:29.560 Right, So there's a lot of resistance from the wikimedia 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:34.480 community towards people who are editing for promotional purposes, because, 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:35.920 you know, the whole point of the project is it 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.840 supposed to be an encyclopedia, not an advertising space, not 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.480 a resume, you know, not a place to promote your 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.959 business or your product. But of course people want information 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.559 on Wikipedia about them, and so there are some people 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.679 who are able to sort of tread that line where 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:58.320 they understand wikimedia policies very well. They understand, you know, 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.040 what is allowed as far as writing about, you know, 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.800 a company without being promotional they understand what that you know, 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.960 organization or company or person would need to accomplish in 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.840 order to you know, achieve those notability requirements, and then 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.040 they can write about them, and they do so very transparently. 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.319 You know, they disclose that they are doing so for compensation, 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.520 you know that they've been hired by that person or organization, 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.280 and they go through the process and it's very you know, 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.839 carefully orchestrated. But there are also a bunch of people 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:31.760 who do so sort of on the you know, on 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.559 the sly and they don't really disclose that they're doing 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.600 it for pay. Those are often the people who will 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.880 sort of cold call you, like if you've gotten emails, 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.160 they're like, hey, I can make you Wikipedia page. A 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.760 lot of those are sort of scammy, uh, not so 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:52.040 reputable organizations, and you know, generally speaking, they actually have 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.360 a pretty hard time doing what they claim that they 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.559 can do because they don't tend to understand the policy 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.400 as well. They try to shoe horn articles into Wikipedia 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:05.400 about subjects that are not notable or that are too promotional, 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.760 and so they tend to get taken down, much to 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:10.640 the dismay of the people who pay them. Quite a 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.960 lot of money. So if you're listening to this and 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:14.440 you've heard from one of those people, I would not 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:16.079 recommend hiring them. 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.120 Just become more important, which I guess is kind of 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:24.160 the question. How does Wikipedia actually judge notoriety? What is important? 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:30.200 Yeah, So, generally speaking, the notability requirements is, you know, 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.960 it basically goes on how much coverage a subject has 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:39.480 received in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.720 So you know, if a big newspaper or several newspapers 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.080 write about you in detail, chances are you might be notable, 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.760 en not for Wikipedia article. On the flip side, if 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.080 you're just publishing press releases that's not independent of you, 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.319 that probably doesn't qualify. If there's just one brief mention 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.600 of you a reliable source someplays, that's probably not sufficient. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:07.160 So that's sort of the general guideline. There are other 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.760 sort of more specific requirements for some sorts of like 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.600 specific types of topics, you know, like sports players and 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:18.120 things like that. But generally speaking, even if someone meets 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.240 one of those guidelines, they've already met that general guideline, 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.200 where you know, it's just about the amount of coverage 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.439 in reliable sources and that can be pressed, that can 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.040 be academia, can be books, you know, anything that sort 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.080 of qualifies as a reliable source. 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.760 Now recently seen it, one of the largest tech sites 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:55.240 actually found itself downgraded in reliability or were you aware 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:56.920 of that situation? Did you see that happen? 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.000 I saw the conversations about it. I wasn't a participant 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.040 in them, but I sort of watched it happen. 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:06.679 Yeah, So for the listeners seen it has hundreds of 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.000 that hundreds of millions of views a month. It's one 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:13.320 of the most notable websites, frankly, and has been for decades. 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:19.800 So what happened there? Why was this significant website considered 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:21.640 less reliable by Wikipedia? 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:27.640 Yeah? So Wikipedia has these discussions pretty frequently about different 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.160 sources and whether or not those sources are generally reliable 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.960 or sometimes reliable or usually not reliable. And in order 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.400 to sort of prevent people from having to have that 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.240 same conversation every single time they want to cite a 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.120 source that's heavily cited, you know, like CE or you know, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.800 the New York Times or something like that, we have 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:51.400 this list of very commonly discussed sources where we just discuss, 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.160 you know, we outline the general reliability of that source. 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.200 And what you're referring to is a recent discussion where 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.920 some editors decided we really needed to revisit the general 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:06.679 reliability of c net, which was previously considered fairly reliable 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.160 for sourcing on Wikipedia, and the reason for that is 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.480 that there had been a pretty noticeable change in the 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.920 quality of the UH material that they were publishing, where it, 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.760 you know, it no longer had the level of accuracy 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.600 that it once did. You know, the articles that were 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.480 being published didn't seem to be being edited well or 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.880 fact checked well. And so we decided that, you know, 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.160 if you're just if you're planning to use c net 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.520 as a source, you should really consider this, and you know, 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.200 consider that it's probably not even as reliable as it 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.040 once was, and maybe use something else, because you know, 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.880 they've started using AI generated content and stuff like that 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.200 that has you know, noticeably affected the quality of the 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.200 articles that they publish. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.080 And what is the what are the ramifications of that downgrading? 0:13:58.120 --> 0:13:59.520 What does that mean? Practically? 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.320 It means that, for you know, if you're writing a 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.320 new article in Wikipedia and you want to use c 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.320 net as a source, you are somewhat discouraged from doing so. Now, 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.079 it means that where c net has been used as 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.480 a source already, editors are going to be looking to 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.760 you know, improve that sourcing, generally by swapping it out 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:26.960 with something that's more reliable. Although, you know, as notability 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.600 changes in these publications, sometimes older content that was written 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.120 or published prior to a change at the organization will 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:40.640 be considered reliable, whereas newer content that's being created now 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.480 and might be using you know, AI or other tools, 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.200 is not considered reliable anymore. So, for example, we have 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.920 a couple of sources where we'll say that, you know, 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.560 anything they published before twenty fifteen is fine, but anything 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:55.480 after that you should take with a grain of salt. 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.000 So I think that's partly the case with c net 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.160 now as well. 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.800 Why do you think that Wikipedia is so much better 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:08.600 at quality control than I don't know, Google, Well. 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:12.200 I think there's a very different set of incentives at play. 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:17.960 You know, Google is a profit driven corporation. They have 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.440 other motivations besides providing the person who is using their 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.480 search engine with the most relevant results. You know, that 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.520 is ostensibly what they do, but they also have motivations 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:33.600 around generating ad revenue and clicks for you know, different 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.200 groups that are using their service or advertising with them. 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.960 Wikipedia doesn't have those sometimes conflicting incentives. You know, the 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.600 goal of Wikipedia is to deliver the highest quality information 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:51.840 that we can, and we're not you know, there's no advertisements. 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.880 We're not trying to surface some specific set of content 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.280 for people based on who is paying, you know, or 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.600 or not paying. It's really just that one incentive, and 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.280 I think that simplifies things because we can all sort 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.920 of get behind that one goal and you know, we 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.640 aren't trying to juggle multiple things that are sometimes very 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:12.880 much in conflict with one another, as I think we've 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.640 seen with Google, where you know, that goal of providing 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.120 the highest quality information to the search user has been 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.960 very much challenged by the other incentives at play. 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.880 So you've edited Wikipedia for about eighteen years. I think 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.840 the simplest question is why do you still do it? 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.600 Why did you start? Why do you continue? Well? 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.120 I started because I was a curious kid who discovered 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.840 that I could and that was exciting for me, and 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:44.480 I have I don't know. I think there are just 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.000 some people out there who have like a very specific 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.880 type of brain where Wikipedia just like sort of tickles 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.320 it just right, you know, and like doing that kind 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:58.520 of editing and you know, curation just appeals to me. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.000 I find it really enjoyable. But I also think that, 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:08.360 you know, the project is a really wonderful, uh creation, 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:10.919 you know, and I think it provides a really important 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.800 service to the people who have access to it, which 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.840 is almost anyone. I mean, it's anyone with an Internet connection, 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.000 and there are even ways to get access to Wikipedia 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.040 without an Internet connection. And so I think that, you know, 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:27.600 maintaining a quality source of high you know, reliability material 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.520 is incredibly important and arguably getting only more important as 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.240 other sources of that same type of content, you know, 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.960 are becoming degraded in the way that you just described 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.760 with Google for example. So you know, I'm very passionate 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.400 about it. I think providing high quality information to everyone 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.600 is one of the most important things that sort of 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.560 humanity needs to achieve, and so I find that very 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:52.840 strongly motivating. 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.600 And is there any pressure a toll from the Wikimedia Foundation? 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:01.600 Do they push people around a toll A not going 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.000 either way. I'm just wondering what influence they have on 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:04.680 the platform. 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.280 Yeah, it's a kind of an unusual relationship between the 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.480 Wi Community Foundation and the editing community. It's sometimes a 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:16.000 little bit adversarial, which is sometimes a little confusing to 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.880 people who are new to the project. But I would 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.320 say no, the Wi Commedia Foundation generally takes a pretty 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.359 hands off approach towards the projects that you know, it 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:32.320 kind of supports. The Wikimedia Foundation almost never comes in 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.399 and says, hey, you need to delete that, or you 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.680 need to you know, do something very specific with the content. 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:42.600 There are some very edge cases with like legal requests 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:44.520 and things like that where they can sometimes do that, 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.760 but they are very very conservative on when they will 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.239 do that, and for the most part they take that 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:54.240 very hands off approach. The Wi Community Foundation is mostly 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.080 concerned with, you know, paying the bills, keeping the site online, 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.480 developing the soft where that actually powers the encyclopedia and 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:05.480 the editing infrastructure and all that, and then you know, 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.840 trying to contribute and grow the editing community and that 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.560 type of thing. But they are pretty hands off when 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.680 it comes to editing, which I think is actually quite good. 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:19.480 It allows the community to you know, organically develop its 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:24.600 own policies and protocols and things like that, and you know, 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.359 without the Wikimedia Foundation sort of putting its thumb on 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:28.840 the scale. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.360 So more practical question, as an editor, what do you do? 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.399 Is it just editing? The reason I ask this is 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.400 you've provided me with your Wikipedia editor page, and there's 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:44.000 things like on block reblog, blog thanks. What do you 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.200 do as an editor? What is what are these numbers about? 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:49.399 Because it feels like there's kind of a niche social 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:50.720 network and inside it. 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.800 Yeah, there's a lot that happens behind the scenes besides 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:58.680 just you know, opening up a page and writing something new. 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:01.000 I do do so of that, you know, I do 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:03.440 write pages from scratch once in a while, or I'll 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.520 go in and edit something if a page is missing 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.200 something or need something. But there's also a whole bunch 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:12.120 of other sort of administrative work I guess that goes 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:16.040 on behind the scenes, where I will sometimes you know, 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.280 patrol articles. That's sort of what I had described earlier, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.920 where people will watch the recent changes to the project 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.080 and try to just filter out anything that looks abusive 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:30.440 or you know, disruptive or honestly just less than productive. 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.879 Sometimes I try to, you know, go around and welcome 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.480 new editors who are just joining the projects and hims 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:38.359 they need help, and so I'll try to sort of, 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.520 you know, show them the ropes a little bit. And 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.200 then there's you know, the blocking and deletion and things 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.000 like that, where people who are known as administrators on 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:53.280 the project can block an editor who is regularly being 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.760 disruptive or delete a page if it doesn't meet the 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.840 requirements that we have defined in our policies and things 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:01.640 like that, and so I do some of that as well. 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:04.159 So how does one become an administrator? 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.960 So there's a whole process called request for admanship where 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:15.040 you either put yourself up, you nominate yourself as a candidate, 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.560 or someone else who thinks that you would be a 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.480 good administrator will do so. And then there's a long 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.280 process where you answer some questions and then the wikimedia 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:27.119 community votes pretty much on whether or not you you know, 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:32.280 have the experience, the you know, the mindset basically, the 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:37.440 right attitude towards contributing, and then there's a vote pretty 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.680 much and if you pass the threshold, then you are 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.399 nominated or you know, you become an administrator at that point. 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:48.040 So it's something that happens, you know, fairly regularly. I 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:52.320 did it in twenty ten, I think but you know, 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:54.800 various people go through it pretty often. 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.359 Have you seen more people joining as editors or is 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:14.840 there more people or less people editing these days? 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:19.040 I would say there's been sort of a slow decline 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:22.159 in the number of people who are joining if you 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:26.760 look at you know, people who join as like a 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:31.280 user and then continue to edit somewhat frequently versus you know, not. 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:33.159 I'm not just talking about people who like correct a 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:34.720 typo once in a while, but the sort of like 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:40.960 regular contributors is sort of yeah, it's it's either flatlining 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:44.040 or declining to some extent. Uh, And it has been 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.199 for a really long time, and so it's sort of 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:51.760 this continual discussion that happens within Wikipedia about you know what, 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:53.520 what do we do about that? How do we encourage 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:55.800 more people to join, How do we make the project 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.200 more welcoming to new people who want to get involved? 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.480 You know, something that I try to focus on as well, 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:04.680 just because I think it's really important to not only 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:07.040 contribute to the encyclopedia, but make sure that other people 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.080 are aware that they can and you know, doing so 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:11.919 if they have the desire to do so. 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.680 Are they training materials? Is there an onboarding process? 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:21.159 There are. In fact, there are many of such things 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:24.719 that different people have created, and the Wi Community Foundation 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:27.160 themselves has gotten a little more involved in recent years 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.120 and trying to make that sign up process a little 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:32.440 bit more friendly, so you know, when you first create 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:34.840 an account, it doesn't just drop you into the editor 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:36.320 like good luck, you know, which is kind of what 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:40.520 it used to do. Now there's some little widgets and 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.520 things that will guide you through making your first edit 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:46.480