WEBVTT - Chertoff on Count Every Vote Campaign

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser from Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Carol Masser, along with

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<v Speaker 1>Kevin Serilli, of course, are Bloomberg News Washington Chief Washington

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<v Speaker 1>correspondent to Bloomberg Radio and TV host of Bloomberg Sound

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<v Speaker 1>on A nine and nine one in the nation's capital.

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<v Speaker 1>June Rosso legal analyst and host of Bloomberg Law on

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Radio. Also with us. We've talked a lot about

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<v Speaker 1>election integrity. It's been called into question throughout the campaign

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<v Speaker 1>and really the voting process as well as the actual

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<v Speaker 1>counting of the votes. Our next guest is well known

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<v Speaker 1>to our Bloomberg audience. He's a member of the National

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<v Speaker 1>Council on Election Integrity. It's a bipartisan group more than

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<v Speaker 1>forty government, political and civic leaders who are devoted to

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<v Speaker 1>defending the legitimacy of our elections. Were, of course talking

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<v Speaker 1>about former Homeland Security Secretary Michael Churdoff, who served under

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<v Speaker 1>President George W. Bush's the co founder and executive chairman

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<v Speaker 1>of the Churdoff Group, and he joins us on the

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<v Speaker 1>phone on this Friday. Michael, nice to have you here

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<v Speaker 1>with Kevin and June and myself. You know, I asked

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<v Speaker 1>us of our last guest um in Georgia, and I

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<v Speaker 1>want to put it to you, what confidence do you

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<v Speaker 1>have in this year's voting process and the counting of

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<v Speaker 1>the votes? Ultimately? You know, I think actually it's been

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<v Speaker 1>an extraordinary display on the part of voters and on

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<v Speaker 1>the part of state and local elected officials of exactly

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<v Speaker 1>how you want to conduct an election in the democratic country.

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<v Speaker 1>We've had unprecedented turn out of a hundred and sixty

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<v Speaker 1>million people. People who were had the opportunity to vote

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<v Speaker 1>by mail did so in great numbers. Others stood online

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<v Speaker 1>for extended courage of time to cast votes in person.

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<v Speaker 1>There was some concern early on about interherence and intimidation

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<v Speaker 1>of voters that did not materialize. By and large, the

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<v Speaker 1>state and local officials have been efficient and careful in

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<v Speaker 1>counting the ballots. Not surprisingly either or sums aways you

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<v Speaker 1>never get to count the same day. But again, there

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<v Speaker 1>hasn't been any indication of any kind of significance forward

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<v Speaker 1>or misbehavior. So that's all good, and I think we

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<v Speaker 1>should take a lot of confidence and the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>our citizens and our state and local officials have done

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<v Speaker 1>exactly what the Constitution wants well. And what's interesting too

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<v Speaker 1>is and I think and as we look at these

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<v Speaker 1>fifty different states and the different you know, processes in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of how they collect the vote, count the vote,

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<v Speaker 1>what's allowed, what's not, you know, do you believe that

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<v Speaker 1>it is necessary that we have some kind of national system, um,

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<v Speaker 1>an easier system, so that whether it's an app or

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<v Speaker 1>so called you know, some other kind of system that

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<v Speaker 1>makes it easier to collect the vote, to count the vote,

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<v Speaker 1>to give access to everybody to vote, you know, in

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<v Speaker 1>the process in an election. Or does that create new

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<v Speaker 1>security concerns? Actually, I want to online voting awards, in

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<v Speaker 1>the view of many people, create security risks that we

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<v Speaker 1>don't have. Map allegations that since widely distributed voting, that

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<v Speaker 1>it would be impossible for somebody to affect the vote

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<v Speaker 1>count itself. I mean, they can have disinformation and lie

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<v Speaker 1>about the vote count, but in churches of actually changing votes,

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<v Speaker 1>you could not do that at scale. If you didn't

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<v Speaker 1>all online, you would candidly be raising a risk which

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<v Speaker 1>I think at this point we probably don't want to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Let me ask you this. It's there. Before the election,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a lot of talk about possible hacking by

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<v Speaker 1>foreign nations and which nation was going to try. Have

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<v Speaker 1>you seen any evidence that that happened at all. I've

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<v Speaker 1>not seen any significant evidence of hacking into the voting

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure itself. And here I want to give credit to

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<v Speaker 1>my old agency, DHS, the cyber Cybersecurity agency there under

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<v Speaker 1>Chris Klebs have been working for months with state and

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<v Speaker 1>local officials to upgrade their secure ay and give them

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<v Speaker 1>the tools they need to protect themselves. Now, we've seen

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<v Speaker 1>disinformation both from overs and domestically, and we've seen some

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<v Speaker 1>hacky or epoch to hacking campaigns, but not to voting

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure itself. Can I jump in here and thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much for making the time. Kevin's really here, Chief

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<v Speaker 1>Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and from Bloomberg Radio. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I talked to so many people on both sides of

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<v Speaker 1>the aisle who say, why were we only talking about

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<v Speaker 1>these elections for the past six months to nine months.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, we should be thinking about election security twenty

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<v Speaker 1>years from now. We should be thinking about the threats

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years from now. How do we get back to

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<v Speaker 1>a country where our election security and I agree. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Republicans Democrats also noting there was not a

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<v Speaker 1>major rachel and whatnot. But how do we get back

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<v Speaker 1>to a country where we're thinking twenty years down the

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<v Speaker 1>line about the prospect of threat and not twenty minutes

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<v Speaker 1>up the clock. Well, I think this is part of

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<v Speaker 1>what we expect our government to be doing, which it's

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<v Speaker 1>done rather unevenly in the last couple of years, which

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<v Speaker 1>is to be strategic about threats, to recognize that we

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<v Speaker 1>need to anticipate what might be threats in the future.

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<v Speaker 1>And frankly, right now it looks as a disinformation and

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<v Speaker 1>manipulation of the media is a bigger threat than actual

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<v Speaker 1>attacks on infrastructure. So I think we need to have

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<v Speaker 1>a discussion about our general political processes, about the roles

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<v Speaker 1>who responsibility of the media, because that is likely to

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<v Speaker 1>be at least in the medium term where we see

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<v Speaker 1>some of the most disruptive activities. Well, and it's I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's such a good point. I mean, because it also

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<v Speaker 1>comes down to you know, you look at what they're

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<v Speaker 1>doing in France and what Immanuel Macrons having to do

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<v Speaker 1>with Austria as the result of the horrific terrorists attacks

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<v Speaker 1>over there, and not to go geopolitical for a second.

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<v Speaker 1>They're having to now they're facing the same concerns about

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<v Speaker 1>how terrorists are are are using the First Amendment and

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<v Speaker 1>freedom of speech against the very democracies that that that

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<v Speaker 1>helped create them. So how do we balance that, sir,

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<v Speaker 1>the protection of freedom of speech with the very real

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<v Speaker 1>threat that you just outlined for us about media institutions

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<v Speaker 1>that are getting taken advantage of by hostile foreign actors,

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<v Speaker 1>and I have to be honest, domestic actors as well.

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<v Speaker 1>We've got, of course, domestic extremism, and we've got a

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<v Speaker 1>conspiracy theorists who have been running wild on social media.

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<v Speaker 1>But I have to be honest, the mainstream media has

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<v Speaker 1>also been jilty of being sloppy in vetting things, of

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<v Speaker 1>rushing to put things out in alarming in an alarming voice.

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<v Speaker 1>When it turns out at the end of the day,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really a more nuanced issue. Some of this is

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<v Speaker 1>a matter of professionalism. Some of it is we need

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<v Speaker 1>to take a look at the algorithms the social media

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<v Speaker 1>used in order to get people more as because they

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<v Speaker 1>can be easily manipulated, and we may need to do

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<v Speaker 1>some rethinking about for example, the role of money in politics,

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<v Speaker 1>which has become absolutely overwhelming. And although you know, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>forty years ago the suspreine Chords thought money is speech,

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<v Speaker 1>what it's doing now is drowning up steech and I

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<v Speaker 1>think that requires a serious look at our at artist well,

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<v Speaker 1>who has the political ban I could go so many

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<v Speaker 1>different places here, Michael, who has the political will? I

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<v Speaker 1>agree with you that money has really kind of squeezed

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<v Speaker 1>out the average American and having a voice in the

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<v Speaker 1>political process. How do we change that? Who has the

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<v Speaker 1>political will to be quite honest, to change that? Well?

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<v Speaker 1>I think you know. One of these we've learned in

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<v Speaker 1>this uh last for your election cycle is that the

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<v Speaker 1>center of the country, in terms of the political left

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<v Speaker 1>center and right center, has been more or less quiet,

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<v Speaker 1>and the ladst voice have been at the extremes. This

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<v Speaker 1>may be a bit of a wake up call, uh

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<v Speaker 1>to both parties, as people who are kind of mainstream

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<v Speaker 1>in both parties that they can't be be spectators anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to have to take seriously the corrected the

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<v Speaker 1>integrity of our institutions as we would take seriously bombs

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<v Speaker 1>and and and physical attacks. So I'm hoping when the

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<v Speaker 1>dust settles here, Um, serious people on both sides of

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<v Speaker 1>the aisle, as is too with a group and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>with so you know what America first, in the sense

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<v Speaker 1>of American interests first, over the parties and interests or

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<v Speaker 1>the parochial interests of some actors. Would there be a

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<v Speaker 1>problem because of the Citizens United case, which sort of

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<v Speaker 1>opened up this whole area, and also during these times

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<v Speaker 1>of such high partisanship, it seems like it might be

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<v Speaker 1>a really an uphill battle to get over that. Well, first,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to say everybody blamed Citizens United, but actually

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<v Speaker 1>the problem goes back about thirty years before that, to

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<v Speaker 1>a case called Buckley v. V. Layout, which upheld restrictions

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<v Speaker 1>on contributions but not on expenditures, the idea being expenditures

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<v Speaker 1>work speech, and what we saw and all citizens did

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<v Speaker 1>was kind of amplify. It was that people were able

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<v Speaker 1>to overwhelm the airwaves and other media and the and

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<v Speaker 1>the the kind of public forum we very carefully targeted

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<v Speaker 1>and crafted messages, and this was made worse by the

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<v Speaker 1>use of new data analytic tools to micro target messages

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that this leads people because you're not

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<v Speaker 1>speaking to everybody, and you have to calibrate your message

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<v Speaker 1>so that everybody hears it, but you can basically spin

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<v Speaker 1>it to a very few people on on one side

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<v Speaker 1>or the other side. So I think, you know, if we,

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<v Speaker 1>if we value our democracy and our freedom, people of

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<v Speaker 1>goodwill are going to have to view the last few

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<v Speaker 1>years as a real wake up call. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>we need to seriously look at not as just say,

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<v Speaker 1>not just social media, but the role of general media,

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<v Speaker 1>the role of money speech, the role of gerrymanderin, because

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<v Speaker 1>these are all aspects of what has begun to take

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<v Speaker 1>away majority ruling democracy and put it in the hands

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<v Speaker 1>of well funded, a small groups. You know, Michael, I

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<v Speaker 1>have to say it was really fascinating this week to

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<v Speaker 1>even watch um mainstream media kind of bail on President

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's press conference because and they would come out and say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>he's telling lies essentially, is what they said. And I

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<v Speaker 1>do wonder that this gets to a bigger issue that

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<v Speaker 1>we've talked about on air about you know, facts, facts

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<v Speaker 1>don't seem to matter, and we know facts on social media,

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<v Speaker 1>they don't necessarily drive the algorithms which drive you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the ad spending and the ad dollars. And I don't

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<v Speaker 1>want to pick on social media, but I do think

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<v Speaker 1>that there's in the media. I think that there has

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<v Speaker 1>been almost a fear with this administration to correct things. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>we certainly haven't felt that way at Bloomberg, but I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just going to say that I think there has been

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<v Speaker 1>a fear, whether to be squeezed out of the press

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<v Speaker 1>room or so on. And I wonder, how do we

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<v Speaker 1>get a world back to a country, back to where

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<v Speaker 1>fact really is important and it matters well. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think that that means all the actors in the information ecosystem,

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<v Speaker 1>you need to first of all consider what are their

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<v Speaker 1>professional obligations. Why are they in the business If it's

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<v Speaker 1>just about making money with ads? Uh, that's pretty sad.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think most journalists and most editors, not everybody,

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<v Speaker 1>do want to do something you think is socially valuable.

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<v Speaker 1>And maybe there's a been reluctance to look at this

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<v Speaker 1>because we get nervous anytime we talked about getting user

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<v Speaker 1>first amendment. But you know what, my my biggest optimistic

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<v Speaker 1>course for optimism is the stakeholders, the customers, the clients,

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<v Speaker 1>the views they're getting. Exercise to bactors we're beginning to

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<v Speaker 1>see now, for example, some platforms who had to take

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<v Speaker 1>down certain kinds of messages because basically they get boycotted

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<v Speaker 1>by the advertisers. And that's again in response to what

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<v Speaker 1>the public wants and how the public reacts. So again

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<v Speaker 1>it's mobilizing all the institutions, not just the government, but

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<v Speaker 1>of civil society to put together a reasonable, balanced consensus

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<v Speaker 1>approach that preserves true freedom of speech but doesn't allow

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<v Speaker 1>manipulation and overwhelming the public form. Michael just got about

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<v Speaker 1>forty seconds. If you could change one things to ensure

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<v Speaker 1>election integrity next time around, just quickly, what would it be.

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<v Speaker 1>It would be to stop candidates from announcing in advance

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<v Speaker 1>that an election is rigged or that it's forging, because

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<v Speaker 1>that undermines our democracy, and we order hold candidates accountable

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<v Speaker 1>for not sending poisonous messages. I'm going to leave it

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<v Speaker 1>on that note. Hey, Michael, thank you so much. I

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<v Speaker 1>can't tell you how much we all appreciate your time

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<v Speaker 1>on this Friday. Michael Churdoff he is co founder, executive

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<v Speaker 1>chairman of the Churdoff Group, member of the National Council

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<v Speaker 1>on Election Integrity. It's a bipartisan Group, former Homeland Security Secretary,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, who served under President George D. George W.

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<v Speaker 1>Bush