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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome back to Work in Progress.

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Speaker 1: Today's incredible guest is a familiar name to anyone who

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Speaker 1: follows politics or law. I am thrilled to get to

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Speaker 1: talk with Anita Hill, activist, professor, and author. Anita is

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Speaker 1: probably most well known for her incredibly brave testimony during

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court confirmation hearings of Justice Clarence Thomas, who

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Speaker 1: she accused of sexual harassment, but her presence in the

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Speaker 1: fight against gender violence and sexual harassment has only strengthened

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Speaker 1: since she is a leader of the movement and a

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Speaker 1: fierce ally to women everywhere. Anita has written two books

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Speaker 1: on the issue of gender violence and discrimination, Speaking Truth

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Speaker 1: to Power and Reimagining Equality. Her third book, Believing Our

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Speaker 1: Thirty Year Journey to End Gender Violence, is coming out

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Speaker 1: this year. I am so looking forward to speaking to

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Speaker 1: Anita about writing the book, her thirty years of learning,

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Speaker 1: which she's offering to us through the lens of her expertise,

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Speaker 1: and about where her fight has taken her for the

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Speaker 1: past three decades. But most of all, I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to learning more about Anita Hill, the person behind the icon.

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Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's get to it with the

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Speaker 1: brilliant Anita Hill. Anita, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me on the show today. I'm I'm so thrilled to

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Speaker 1: have you here, and I just I have a million questions. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I'm trying to call my you know, um, active

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Speaker 1: social change worker, fangirl heart looking at you on zoom

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Speaker 1: right now, and remember that I have a I have

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Speaker 1: a formula, and there's a way I asked questions of people.

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Speaker 1: So well, we will have a great conversation. I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: I'm really happy to be here and engaging with you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I hope that puts you a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: It does, honestly it does. Um. I mean there's so

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Speaker 1: much going on in your life currently and obviously these

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Speaker 1: sort of famous moments in our national history that that

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Speaker 1: you have advocated through. Um, but I want to go

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Speaker 1: back even farther if I may, because so many of

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Speaker 1: us know Anita Hill, this incredible attorney, this change worker,

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Speaker 1: this activist, and I wonder, I wonder who you were

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Speaker 1: when you were a little girl. You know, what what

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Speaker 1: your life was like when you were saying, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: eight or ten years old, what were you will ways,

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Speaker 1: the sort of outspoken defender or were you in a

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Speaker 1: completely different kind of headspace as a as a young child. Oh,

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Speaker 1: as a child, I really was pretty bookished, honestly, and

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Speaker 1: I was. I really wanted to be a scientist. When

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Speaker 1: I was growing up and thinking about what I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do. Um, you know, I'd run through all the

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Speaker 1: different things that the young girls and that at that

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Speaker 1: time thought about, Oh I could be a secretary or

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Speaker 1: I could be a social worker. And then I discovered

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Speaker 1: science and Matt and I loved them both. And the

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Speaker 1: quick story about my decision to not go into science

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Speaker 1: but to go into law came about my freshman year

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Speaker 1: in college when I told my freshman advisor that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to be too major in biology, and my advisor said, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, science is pretty hard, and I think you

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Speaker 1: really should try something a little bit easier. And not

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Speaker 1: knowing that I could actually reject him entirely, I did,

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Speaker 1: you know, I sort of deferred because I thought they

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Speaker 1: were right. I thought advisors knew what they were doing.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when I think back on it, I think,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I did do something, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: easier was going to law school. And and i've certainly

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Speaker 1: had it tried to have an impact on situations like mine.

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Speaker 1: But I would I had, I would hope that today

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Speaker 1: some advisor would say, you know, science hard, but you've

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Speaker 1: got good scores, you've got good grades. Let's let's make

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Speaker 1: sure we know exactly what you need to be successful. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of my thinking today, And

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Speaker 1: that's what I want to do for everyone who gets

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Speaker 1: classified as not capable or you know, you're just not

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Speaker 1: right for that position or that job or or that career.

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Speaker 1: And I imagine, you know, you touched on it. You

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Speaker 1: said the the opportunities that were available to girls, you know,

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Speaker 1: things that you phrased it differently, but you you sort

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Speaker 1: of referenced what women were expected, you know, to do

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Speaker 1: in the era. And I and I wonder about that

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Speaker 1: when you think about this advisor, this man who who

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Speaker 1: essentially was saying like, oh, little lady, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you can handle it. I wonder if now or

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Speaker 1: or if since he's gone, wow, I really misjudged Anita Hill.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think those things happened so frequently, and

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Speaker 1: it's so much a part of that person subconscious that

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Speaker 1: they don't even think about it, that they think, oh,

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Speaker 1: I was right. Even though she has been successful, I

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Speaker 1: still believe that I was right to dissuade her from

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Speaker 1: going into science. When you mentioned that that's sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, conscious or unconscious. I think about this moment

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Speaker 1: we're in where we're talking about systems how they affect people,

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Speaker 1: and and we talk a lot about what bias looks like,

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Speaker 1: an unconscious bias, and I wonder about that man's unconscious bias, perhaps,

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Speaker 1: you know, if he didn't realize what he was doing,

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Speaker 1: dissuading a young woman. And that feels like part of,

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Speaker 1: you know, where we'll go in this conversation talking about

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Speaker 1: this modern moment where we're unpacking you know, gender politics

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Speaker 1: and the dynamics of how so much systematic oppression has

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Speaker 1: these intersections across oppressed groups. And I can't help but

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Speaker 1: think again, you know about your story this, You know,

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Speaker 1: this girl who was the youngest of thirteen children, um,

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Speaker 1: who loved science and was bookish, as you said, who

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Speaker 1: also was growing up during the civil rights movement? Was

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Speaker 1: that something that you were aware of? Was was that

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Speaker 1: a topic of discussion around your very large dinner table

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Speaker 1: with your family? How How did that you know? Shape

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Speaker 1: you consciously er or maybe unconsciously at the time. Well

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Speaker 1: being the youngest of thirteen children was really helpful in

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Speaker 1: terms of even in hindsight of seeing how bias were

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Speaker 1: you know, I had third twelve siblings older, and ten

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Speaker 1: of them had graduated from segregated schools. Um three of

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Speaker 1: us went to integrated schools. So there was this almost

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Speaker 1: as though my children, my parents, in terms of social progress,

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Speaker 1: raised two different families. We didn't talk about it though,

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Speaker 1: I mean we didn't talk about it. We didn't talk

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Speaker 1: specifically in many ways about it, but it was always

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Speaker 1: understood that in order to be accepted, to get ahead,

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Speaker 1: to even get what was due to you, um, you

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Speaker 1: had to work twice as hard. And there was this

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Speaker 1: urgency that my parents had, um, particularly my mother, that

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Speaker 1: we were all going to be educated and that we

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Speaker 1: were perhaps not living in a time where we could

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Speaker 1: expect to be treated equally, but she was going to

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Speaker 1: prepare us for that time when we would be treated equally.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, I have to give her credit

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Speaker 1: for you know, grooming us really to deal with racism

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Speaker 1: and sexism and following through on what it meant for

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Speaker 1: her to get us there. I mean in teaching us,

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Speaker 1: really coaching us every day nearly uh, to make sure

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Speaker 1: that that we could be as successful as anyone. It

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Speaker 1: is interesting that we talk about unconscious bias and and

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Speaker 1: how it works today and how it works on the

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Speaker 1: in terms of the subjects that I'm talking about in

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Speaker 1: my book Believing. I mean, I asked people often, how

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Speaker 1: often have you heard the words not so bad applied

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Speaker 1: to a situation that you're living where people tell you, Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's you know that thing that you that happened to you,

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Speaker 1: that's that's not really that bad, or maybe you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: make a big deal out of it, or you know,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, that's just normal. That's just what men

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Speaker 1: do or just what boys do, um and you just

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Speaker 1: have to live with it. Or even if you're a male,

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Speaker 1: you know you've got a man up. If somebody is

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Speaker 1: bullying you, abbusive to you. I mean that to me

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Speaker 1: is one of the chief problems with gender rates violence

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Speaker 1: that we literally groom people to accept it from a

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Speaker 1: very early age. And what happens is that you hear

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Speaker 1: that message over and over, and if you are victimized,

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Speaker 1: then you assume that the same message still applies, that

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Speaker 1: it's not so bad. Somebody's going to tell you that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Arlen Spector told me that and so. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the first time I've heard it. It's not

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Speaker 1: the first time any of us has heard it. I

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Speaker 1: that I think what we need to understand is that

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Speaker 1: it's not just a problem for victims and survivors. It

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Speaker 1: is a problem of grooming abusers to you know, just

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Speaker 1: accept that what bad behavior should be tolerated. It's a

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Speaker 1: it's a problem for observers who are seeing it and

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Speaker 1: witnessing it and aren't speaking up as bystanders because they

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Speaker 1: also have been that's not so bad. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that's one of the places that where you need

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Speaker 1: to really start. When we're dealing with this as a

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Speaker 1: systemic problem and a structural problem, we also need to

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Speaker 1: start with culture. What is the culture telling us about

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Speaker 1: gender based violence that is leading to it happening often

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Speaker 1: and no accountability for it? Absolutely. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: about some of the adages and you mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: this idea of boys will be boys. Uh, you get

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Speaker 1: told from a young age if a boy hits you

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Speaker 1: on the playground, oh, that's because he likes you. You know,

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Speaker 1: you you literally get encouraged to believe that violence is romantic.

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Speaker 1: And I think about the kind of complexity which you

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Speaker 1: referenced in what men are told man up. Women are

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Speaker 1: told they're being too sensitive and taking things personally and

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Speaker 1: that it's not that bad. And men are being told

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Speaker 1: that essentially, they're only acceptable persona is strength, and their

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Speaker 1: only acceptable emotional expression is anger. So then we wonder why,

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Speaker 1: by the age of twenty two, one in four women

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Speaker 1: has been assaulted already because men are taught that violence

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Speaker 1: is the only thing they can do and be a man,

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Speaker 1: and and women are cultured over and over again it

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Speaker 1: wasn't that bad. Oh he didn't mean it. Oh you know,

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Speaker 1: don't don't ruin his future. Um. I recall, and it

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Speaker 1: was so shocking and it took me a while to process.

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Speaker 1: I was assaulted by a coworker and the response from

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Speaker 1: my boss when I went to get help was I'm

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Speaker 1: just so relieved he didn't try to rape you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So immediately I was being told there was an acknowledgment

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Speaker 1: that it was sexual violence, and there was the unspoken

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Speaker 1: it's not that bad because the worst, the quote worst

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Speaker 1: thing didn't happen to you, So it's not, I mean

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Speaker 1: that didn't happen. There were already excuses being made. And

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Speaker 1: it took me years of trying to understand, as you said,

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Speaker 1: the culture that I was in to make sense of

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Speaker 1: the failings of my workplace two in any way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form adequately deal with this. And and I think

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Speaker 1: about the people I went to to kind of learn

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Speaker 1: lessons from, and and one of those people, you know,

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Speaker 1: without you knowing, was you. I went back to your testimony,

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Speaker 1: I went back to articles that you've written, I went

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Speaker 1: back to talks that you've given. I went back to

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Speaker 1: my favorite Gloria Steinham book and I spoke to her

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Speaker 1: at length about how these things happen. And what has

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Speaker 1: also a mainated for me is we talk about the

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Speaker 1: intersection of sexual violence and racism, and how sexism and

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Speaker 1: racism are so deeply connected. And I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: pick your brain about this. And the other part that

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Speaker 1: I think we don't acknowledge that I had to come

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Speaker 1: to terms with in my workplace experience was, Oh, there's

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Speaker 1: also such a scarcity in our economy. We don't have

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Speaker 1: social safety nets, so people are so terrified to quote

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Speaker 1: unquote rock the boat at their job. God forbid, the

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Speaker 1: job drives up, God forbid, the show gets canceled. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, what if I speak up in defense of

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Speaker 1: that person and I get fired? How will I live?

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Speaker 1: And people who are afraid for their future security are

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Speaker 1: very unwilling to disturb their present, even if they're present.

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Speaker 1: Is violent? Yeah, I mean, your situation really does describe

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Speaker 1: what happens over and over again, time and time again.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I don't know where do we even

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Speaker 1: begin to sort of figure out where to go with that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's almost you know what I tell people,

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Speaker 1: this is not just a book about sexual harassment, which

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Speaker 1: some people think it will be. This is a book

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Speaker 1: really about this whole range of behavior and experiences a

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Speaker 1: violence and aggression, from bullying to rape to sexual assault

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Speaker 1: to you know, in my partner, violence to murder and

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Speaker 1: you know, suicide, murder, suicides, and and it's such a

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Speaker 1: big problem. It's such a thorny problem and a complicated

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Speaker 1: problem because it is a mixture of culture and structures.

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Speaker 1: And so I remember initially, when when I started looking

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Speaker 1: at the problem thirty years ago, I expected that people

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Speaker 1: would come to me and talk about sexual harassment. Was

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Speaker 1: this woman wrote me. Suci described herself as a school

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Speaker 1: teacher from Oregon, and she said, there will be waves

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Speaker 1: of women behind you, and she was talking about you,

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Speaker 1: and she was talking about other women your age who

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Speaker 1: have come through these experiences and now have a language

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Speaker 1: and way to talk about them. But at the time,

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Speaker 1: we hardly even had developed a language to tell think about,

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Speaker 1: and analyze and talk about what was going on in

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Speaker 1: our lives. Even then, though I expected harassment to come up,

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Speaker 1: I didn't expect all these other behaviors to come up.

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Speaker 1: I didn't and I certainly didn't expect that men would

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Speaker 1: come to me and say, you know, I've been abused too.

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Speaker 1: And I felt the same response where people were blaming

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Speaker 1: me for it or they were denying at and so

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Speaker 1: what you know, it seems to me that we are

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Speaker 1: talking about some problem that is so much a part

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Speaker 1: of every aspect of our lives that we and that

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Speaker 1: we cannot solve any one of those individual problems without

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Speaker 1: looking at the whole and without taking care of, um,

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Speaker 1: how we're going to solve all of them because we

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Speaker 1: just can't pick them apart. They're so inter related in

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Speaker 1: terms of how people experience it, how others respond to

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Speaker 1: their experiences, and we have a complex problem, and it

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Speaker 1: is a bit like boiling the ocean. I mean, your

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Speaker 1: description of your situation brought in so many elements of

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Speaker 1: this that to get at it you think about all

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Speaker 1: the things that you have to to address. Let me

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Speaker 1: let me be a little bit more specific and giving

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Speaker 1: you an example from just your description when you were

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Speaker 1: talking about that the way that people hand not even

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Speaker 1: even if there is a process for getting some kind

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Speaker 1: of justice or satisfaction or accounting for a problem, there

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Speaker 1: are always these greater risks. And a person with not

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Speaker 1: enough money, or whose job is tenuous, or who works

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Speaker 1: in a business where you know you have to rely

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Speaker 1: on your connections to get that next job, which is

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Speaker 1: where entertainment is, then you must think very long and

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Speaker 1: hard about whether it's worth the risk to even complain

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Speaker 1: about what your problems. But in many cases there's no

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Speaker 1: complaint process anyway. And what I have found is that

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Speaker 1: the further away you are from the center of power

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Speaker 1: in an organization or a system, the harder it is

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Speaker 1: for you to be hurt m hm. And so some

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Speaker 1: of us have managed to break through all those levels

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Speaker 1: of oppression and silencing, but many people don't um and

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Speaker 1: you know that's that's something that we have to take

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Speaker 1: into account as we're thinking about solutions or how we're

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Speaker 1: going to get beyond this well. And that's part of

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Speaker 1: why I'm so thrilled that your latest book analyzes the

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Speaker 1: spectrum you're talking about from you know, these slight microaggressions too,

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Speaker 1: as you said, ending at the worst possible outcome of

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Speaker 1: a murder suicide. To understand all the pieces, I believe

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Speaker 1: is where we begin to find a solution in terms

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Speaker 1: of how we behave interact, how we structure our workplaces.

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Speaker 1: I am amazed when I think about, uh, this present moment,

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Speaker 1: the thirt I was in feet, if you will, from

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Speaker 1: which you are analyzing the systems that allow for this

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Speaker 1: kind of behavior in the thirty years since your testimony.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're right. I think about the language we

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Speaker 1: didn't have when I quit my job because of this harassment,

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Speaker 1: when I had been going to you know, every power

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Speaker 1: that be for four years reporting asking for help, and

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Speaker 1: by the way, I would be classified as a person

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Speaker 1: close to the center of power. I was the lead

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Speaker 1: of a TV show and it didn't matter the moment

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Speaker 1: I didn't grin and bear it. I was an enemy

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Speaker 1: and the retaliation was unbearable and the whole experience was

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Speaker 1: toxic and a mess. And I realized, you know, HR

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Speaker 1: was a force and it was all ridiculous, and it

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Speaker 1: really made me think about, how are we going to

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Speaker 1: better advocate? If this is my experience in a quote

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Speaker 1: position of power, what's happening to everybody else? And you know,

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Speaker 1: the Harvey Weinstein case broke months later and we began

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Speaker 1: having this national me too conversation. Granted Toronto Boke had

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Speaker 1: begun it ten years ago or ten years before, but

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Speaker 1: I know how much has changed in these last few years.

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Speaker 1: I can't fathom what your experience must have been like

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Speaker 1: in it's still the beginning of your career in law

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Speaker 1: and politics, and you basically have to sit in front

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Speaker 1: of the entire country because these hearings were televised and

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Speaker 1: talk about your experience with sexual harassment, and no one

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Speaker 1: had the language and and no one was having these

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Speaker 1: conversations we're having now. What was running through your mind

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Speaker 1: at that time during those hearings? How did you? How

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Speaker 1: did you do it well? During the hearings, my job

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Speaker 1: was to bring evidence about the fitness of Clarence Thomas

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Speaker 1: to serve from the Supreme Court. That was my job.

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Speaker 1: I knew enough about bias and oppression. Frankly, haven't grown

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Speaker 1: up at the time that I did, and it's described

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Speaker 1: by family situation to know that it is nearly impossible

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Speaker 1: to change the minds of people who don't want to

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Speaker 1: change and have no clear and can't figure out that

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Speaker 1: they have an interest in changing um. And I'll get

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Speaker 1: back to That's been one of the things that I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to do with this book is to get people

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Speaker 1: to see that we are suffering this colossal human cost.

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Speaker 1: When we put all of these of yours together, there's

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Speaker 1: a huge human cause that we are all bearing Lebronta.

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Speaker 1: But I wasn't thinking about that. I was really thinking

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Speaker 1: about how do I get my message across and help

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Speaker 1: people understand that the way that an individual behaves in

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Speaker 1: the workplace with regard to sexual harassment is a reflection

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Speaker 1: on their qualification to sit in judgment of others. And

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Speaker 1: so that was the that day, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to get out alive. And I say

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Speaker 1: that almost was a chuckle to day. But quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: there was very little interest on the part of the

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Speaker 1: committee in making sure that I was safe, because the

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Speaker 1: retaliation did happen. It happened after. I mean, people presume

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Speaker 1: that everything in that the day I testified and went home,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't end. I mean, there was, you know,

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Speaker 1: this effort to give me fired from my job, and

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Speaker 1: you know, there were death threats, and so the committee

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Speaker 1: did not respond to any of that um and they

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Speaker 1: didn't hold a hearing. And this is what I keep saying,

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Speaker 1: it's had they held a hearing that indicated to the

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Speaker 1: public that they respect women's experiences in the workplace and

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Speaker 1: that they understand that civil rights protections exists to stop

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Speaker 1: these kinds of experiences, then it would have been a

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Speaker 1: lot easier for me to go on with my life.

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Speaker 1: I think that would have quieted much of the public

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Speaker 1: blowback that I experienced. But then you move out of that,

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Speaker 1: you move out from that. And I made a choice

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Speaker 1: to understand it, to understand what was going on beyond

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Speaker 1: my personal experience, and I did hear from and I

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Speaker 1: continue to hear, and I've heard from thousands of people

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Speaker 1: who have shared their experiences. And when I work today,

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Speaker 1: it's because they are still out there wanting to be

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Speaker 1: heard and then and believing that they deserve solutions and

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Speaker 1: they want to be a part of calling out what

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Speaker 1: those solutions are going to be. M M. You know,

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Speaker 1: very often we think it's enough to ask survivors how

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Speaker 1: they feel, you know, and some of this are some

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Speaker 1: of these questions. Again this way we use language, We

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Speaker 1: say to them, are you okay? Not because we necessarily care,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of those questions are asked sincerely, so

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Speaker 1: are not. But what we don't do enough of is

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Speaker 1: asking survivors and victims what should we be doing, how

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Speaker 1: can we stop this? And what would make you feel

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Speaker 1: whole and feel that that we have experienced this moments

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Speaker 1: of reckoning that we always claim to our happening when

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Speaker 1: something like, you know, nineteen million tweets show up in

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Speaker 1: the span of a few days. So that's why I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm writing, That's why I keep working. It's not that

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Speaker 1: I am trying to figure out how to redo. What

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out is how do we make

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Speaker 1: sure it doesn't keep repeating itself? Because it does, because

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Speaker 1: it does it and over every day, and and it

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Speaker 1: is an experience of really, what where what is leadership doing?

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Speaker 1: How are they performing in spaces that aren't on television?

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Speaker 1: And why aren't they determined and commit it to take

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Speaker 1: on this very difficult issue, to do the work that

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Speaker 1: needs to be done to eliminate it. When you talk

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Speaker 1: about the backlash, I the story is yours, and the

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Speaker 1: sentiment is so familiar because every woman I've spoken with

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Speaker 1: who's been through her own version of this has has

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Speaker 1: gone through that in some way, and those of us

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Speaker 1: who have had to do so publicly definitely do. And

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Speaker 1: it's always the same. It's the retaliation, it's the death threats,

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Speaker 1: it's the harassment that is ongoing. The react is the

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Speaker 1: proof of the broken system, because the reaction is more

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Speaker 1: violence against a woman who's experienced violence. And and I

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Speaker 1: wonder for you because I imagine that it was traumatizing

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Speaker 1: and terrifying to be sort of left out vulnerable after

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Speaker 1: the hearing. What were there messages of support that cut

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Speaker 1: through the noise that kind of kept you going and

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Speaker 1: sustained you? Was it family who supported you? Like? What

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Speaker 1: what kept you pressing forward for all of us when

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Speaker 1: you could have so easily retreated and hidden? How did

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Speaker 1: you do it? Well? I do have a wonderful family

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Speaker 1: and I talk about my family and their support. It's

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Speaker 1: it's been ongoing, it's never ending, and you know, it

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00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: means everything, and they kept me alive. Interestingly, I had

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Speaker 1: wonderfully supportive colleagues in my workplace. You know, I was

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Speaker 1: still teaching, and you know, within a day or so

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Speaker 1: after I testified, I had to go back and teach

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Speaker 1: my class, and you know, you have to stand in

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Speaker 1: there in front of sixties students and there you are

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Speaker 1: the woman that's just been publicly shamed on television, and

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Speaker 1: you just wonder what that's going to do to the

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Speaker 1: classroom dynamics. I was so proud and and just heart

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Speaker 1: warm by the student reactions to me, and really look

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Speaker 1: back and knowing that I was not a hundred percent,

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Speaker 1: but that they carried me in that classroom experience and

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Speaker 1: made the classroom experience one of those places where I

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Speaker 1: could feel I could go in and know that I

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Speaker 1: could make a contribution and that I had the support

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Speaker 1: of the people in that room. And so I consider

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Speaker 1: myself very fortunate because I know that I'm in the

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Speaker 1: minority in that respect. I know that once these things

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Speaker 1: happen in people co public that in most instances, especially

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Speaker 1: that I know of, that support is not there. It's

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Speaker 1: lacking some place or another. Either you don't have the

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Speaker 1: family support, or you don't have the colleague support, or

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Speaker 1: you don't have your clients support, or you don't have

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Speaker 1: your supervisor support, or you really don't feel like you

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Speaker 1: have the support of the society at large. And so

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Speaker 1: I I consider my self very privileged, even though people

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Speaker 1: will probably saying, well, how can you think of that

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Speaker 1: yourself in that way? I do because I know what

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Speaker 1: all of those things meant to me, to my survival

432
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: and then to my ability to take that arians and

433
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: see beyond myself, to see through those letters, and those

434
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: letters were a part of my growth too. I had

435
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: so much going for me, and part of that healing

436
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: that took place was first understanding that I was not alone,

437
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: that there were others out there, and secondly that I

438
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: had training that would allow me to make sense not

439
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: only of my experience, but of the experiences of others

440
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: as well. And I decided that I was going to

441
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: use that training, that I was going to use the

442
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: fact that I had a lot of degree and that

443
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: my job was to analyze things and analyze problems and

444
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: come up with ways to think about them differently and

445
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: talk them differently, to unpack and then rebuild for what

446
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: I believe would be a better world for everyone. When

447
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: you think about designing a better world and using the

448
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: law and and using that toolkit that you had, that

449
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: strikes me as feeling so hopeful. And and I will

450
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: admit that is usually where, you know, despite my sacred

451
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: rage when I witness injustice or or how frustrated I

452
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: feel with broken systems, I believe in us. And and

453
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: I think that's what makes at times it feels so

454
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: painful when you see us being failed. And I can't

455
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: imagine what it was like to, you know, testify and

456
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: then see Clarence Thomas be appointed as a justice to

457
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court anyway, and then to watch the Kavanaugh

458
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: hearings in two thousand eighteen. For all of us, we

459
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: just kept saying, it's history repeating itself. It's it's Anita

460
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: Hill all over again. And I'm very curious how, in

461
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: seeing it happen again decades apart, you can point to

462
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, the maths, the law and see a way forward.

463
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: First of all, I really can reach a conclusion that

464
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, I did not fail in that the years

465
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: had taught me and I had seen enough action and change.

466
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: The fact that the number of people complaining about sexual

467
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: harassment doubled in the years following the hearing. The fact

468
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: that we had record numbers of women running for office

469
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: in part because they believed that they needed better representation

470
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: that they were not getting from male politicians. The fact

471
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: that we did began this new conversation in a way

472
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: of thinking, and that really literally thousands of students have

473
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: gone through classes and studied under professors who have been

474
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: teaching us differently about sexual harassment and assault. The fact

475
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: that we have this emerging concept called intersectionality, where it

476
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: takes into account race and gender together and multiple oppressions

477
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: that people experience to understand the enormity of problems of

478
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: gender violence. I believe we were building a platform, and

479
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: while the outcome might seem like failure too many people,

480
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: the fact that even a minority of people heard us

481
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: and heard that testimony, and and they have gone on

482
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 1: to respond to it through their own work was enough

483
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: for me to know that the world had changed since

484
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: n And that's why, you know, when when happened in

485
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: the kavanaughire happened, I saw this as a moment where

486
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: we could talk about what that hearing should be. It

487
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: should treat Christine boss Ford with respect. It should give

488
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: her an opportunity we heard outside of bias and noise

489
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: and and the investigation that was completely one sided and

490
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: really under the control of someone who was his sponsor,

491
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: who was Kavanaughs sponsor. So it was limited and we

492
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: would be heard. If we made sure that this is

493
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: what could happen, that would be better for everyone involved

494
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: and certainly for the public that wanted something more. I

495
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: wanted personally, you know, I just desperate did not want

496
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: and the Kavanaugh hearing to be a repeat of the

497
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: Thomas hearing. I desperately wanted something different, and not just

498
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: in terms of the outcome, but in terms of the

499
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: process itself. I didn't get much difference, But it doesn't

500
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: mean that I believe that nothing has changed. I think

501
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: coming out of that Kavanaugh hearing, people were in fact

502
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: saying we should not go forward with this nomination. The

503
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: majority of people in the public, and they were more

504
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: likely to listen two complaints about the process, to be

505
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 1: outraged by the way the investigation unfold that and was limited,

506
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: and information that would be useful was held back. Yeah,

507
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: so we have changed. Unfortunately, the leadership in the Senate

508
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee hasn't. And that's why I think in terms

509
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: of our solutions, we have to focus on leadership making

510
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: tough choices and having courage to follow through on those choices,

511
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: and leadership holding us to the best standards, not the

512
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: most average and for the most convenient, the most politically

513
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 1: convenient standards is what we have gotten in those two hearings,

514
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: and I suspect that those are simply a reflection of

515
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: what is happening throughout all of these scandals that you

516
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: see in politics. However, there seems to be something a

517
00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: little different now going on in terms of what has

518
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 1: happened with Andrew Kuama. I guess what frustrates me though,

519
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 1: is watching, you know, watching Mitch McConnell nuke the nuke

520
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: the filibuster multiple times to confirm Trump's judges to the

521
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and then watching the Democrats refused to do

522
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 1: the same to solidify our voting rights when we understand

523
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: that it's electing people who represent us that gets us

524
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: better solutions. As you said after your appearance before the

525
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee, record numbers of women started running for office

526
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: and winning their elections, and and those numbers are continuing today.

527
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 1: And we saw a huge wave of it after and

528
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: I am so emboldened by and inspired by that shift.

529
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: And I can't imagine what it must feel like for

530
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: you to know that that demographic shift is part of

531
00:38:53,880 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: your legacy. And I want more people in those elected positions,

532
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: as you said, to not make politically convenient choices, but

533
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 1: to make choices that give us a better national legacy. Well,

534
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: and you're right, But first of all, they have to

535
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 1: see that this is part of a national legacy. They

536
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: have to see that the harm that is happening. Um two,

537
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: Each individual who experiences violence because of their gender or

538
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: because of the way they express their gender is harm

539
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: to everyone. I mean, think about it. I don't think

540
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: that you can name any one of our national institutions,

541
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: and by that I mean things like colleges, elementary schools,

542
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: and businesses. You can think about specific sectors entertainment. We

543
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: can think about the MILLI Harry, we can think about

544
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: this White House, the Congress. I mean we every one

545
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: of our public institution has been riddled with problems of

546
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 1: sexual misconduct of some former than another and in many

547
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: cases violent misconduct you can't name it. So how in

548
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: the world can we avoid seeing that this problem is

549
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: a public crisis. It's not the individual, personal, sort of

550
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: situational crisis that politicians like to sort of balkanize the

551
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: problem too. It is really something that has to do

552
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: with the integrity of our country and and really, you know,

553
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: our ability to claim that we are a country that

554
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: believes in equal justice. So we've got to we've got

555
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: to we've got to see it as such, and we

556
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: have to treat it as such. And we've got to

557
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: find ways to commit. And and when I say we,

558
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: what I mean is we've got to have leadership that

559
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: does but we have to push them too. This is

560
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: not something that is happening on their own. This public crisis.

561
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: You know, we've made choices about what's a public crisis.

562
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: We've talked about the pandemic being a public crisis. We've

563
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: talked about racism and mily soelf being a public crisis. Um,

564
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: we've talked about climate change as a public crisis. Now

565
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: think about how pervasive and corrosive this gender violence is.

566
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: There's no reason that this does not rise to the

567
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: level of a public crisis. It is hurting us in

568
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: many ways and just about every institution that we look at,

569
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: and that it means it's corrupting our institutions. So the

570
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: problem is widespread. Its exists in almost every location that

571
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: people exist in. It's intergenerational because we keep passing on

572
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: the same kinds of language and policies and processes and

573
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: and behavior from one generation to the next. And and

574
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: this is really important. It gets visited the most harshly

575
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: on the backs of the vulnerable populations. And so it

576
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: means that we are never going to reach equality if

577
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: we continue to allow this scourge to exist without treating it.

578
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: You know, I am often just struck by how little

579
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: people are willing to to speak about the problem. I mean,

580
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: people will read stories in the newspaper and you know,

581
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: they'll some people will say, Okay, well we fixed us,

582
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: and that's only because they see one case, right, But

583
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: what we've not really had a public conversation that deals

584
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: with the whole love the problem. Well, and I think

585
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: you're right, because we are not addressing sexual violence and

586
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: sexual harassment as a public health crisis. And it is

587
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: and I do believe that the importance of women running

588
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: for office, and the demographic shift that you helped to

589
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: begin has led us to the moment where we are

590
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: having these conversations publicly. But I do feel that there

591
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: are still a lot of people who are willing to

592
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: read the article but treat the the conversation itself like

593
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: a you know, brown paper bag, bottom shelf kind of thing.

594
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: Oh well, that we don't we don't talk about that.

595
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: There's some strange um stigma or shame, and and that

596
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: feels so problematic because the silence enables the violence, and

597
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: the unwillingness to take it seriously creates a world in which,

598
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: as you mentioned before, someone like and Andrew Cuomo can say,

599
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a harasser. I'm I'm affectionate. It's

600
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: my culture and think that that's okay. And by the way,

601
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: the irony is not lost on me that Andrew Cuomo,

602
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: through the advocacy of Times UP, enacted changes to the

603
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: New York state law to elongate the statute of limitations

604
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: since they had one of the shortest for sexual violence. Literally,

605
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: all of the laws that he passed to make it

606
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: more possible to prosecute sex offenders are the laws that

607
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: are now going to get him into bubble for his behavior.

608
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: I'm like, you literally just passed laws to give us

609
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: the power to go after our abusers in New York

610
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 1: while you were abusing women in your office. Hello. How

611
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: that cognitive dissonance is. I mean, it's breathtaking to me,

612
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: and it speaks, in my opinion, to the enormity of

613
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: the cultural issue that is our unwillingness to take this

614
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: seriously and treat it like a public health crisis. As

615
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: you said, well, it's not only a public health crisis,

616
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 1: but but you know, there is also this theory that

617
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: there are people who do good in one area and

618
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: they believe that that doing good in this area gives

619
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: them a path on every bad behavior that they have.

620
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: But you know, it's not just a public health crisis.

621
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: And that is what I mean. If the implications, let's

622
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: just say, for sexual harassment alone, sexual harassment in the

623
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: workplace is costly. There is an economic impact, but we

624
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: and our government hasn't measured it. Now. We talk about,

625
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: you know, economic growth, and you know, we talk about

626
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: how our houses that are built, but we don't talk

627
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 1: about the negative sides of economic growth that are occurring

628
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: because of sexual harassment and other kinds of violence women

629
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: even you know, the domestic violence has an impact on

630
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: women's lives and their careers and their economic security, and

631
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: so it's an economic crisis or women. It's impacting our economy.

632
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: But when Senators worn In Guildebrand and Patty Murphy and

633
00:46:53,800 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: Diane Feinstein wrote to our government authorities telling them are

634
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: asking them to provide us with information about exactly what

635
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: the economic impact is, the response I got was, we

636
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: don't have the figures. We haven't done the calculation. Um,

637
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: we so we really don't know. We know that it

638
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: has housing impact, we know that has health impact, we

639
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 1: know that you know, economic security, and there's an impact

640
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: because of litigation that is filed, but we haven't calculated.

641
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: So you know, you know, there's that old saw you

642
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: can't fix what you don't measure. But there are the

643
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: other part of that is we measure what we care about,

644
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: and if we really cared about it, we have to

645
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 1: dedicate ourselves to measure it understanding its impact, Understanding as

646
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: I said, this colossal human cost on more than just

647
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: our health but general welfare. Are feelings of safety and security.

648
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 1: Um that then impacts our children. So I think you know, intergenerational.

649
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: The problem is bigger than our officials are understanding it

650
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: to be, and therefore their solutions are limited. Well, and

651
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: when you when you talk about the impacts you know

652
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: not only on survivors, but on their families, and and

653
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: the fact that we don't have the data on the

654
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: economy that feels important because to your point earlier in

655
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: the conversation, you said, this damage is all of us,

656
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: including the perpetrators, and that is the the emotional and

657
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: physical and psychological impact. And when we look then at

658
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 1: what it does to the economy, the amount of money

659
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: withheld from the economy because of this suffering, because of

660
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: this damage, because of the lack of gender parity and

661
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: pay all of this, they're all versions of the oppression,

662
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: largely of women. And everyone would benefit from us living

663
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: in inequitable society, even the people at the top, they

664
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: would benefit more. The the economic pie would be larger

665
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 1: for the whole country, not just us. And and it's

666
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: those kinds of facts, you know, where you meet the

667
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 1: moral core of the issue with the mathematical information about

668
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: the economy and the studies of generational effect. And that's

669
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: where I love to be, is in the center of

670
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: where all of these things meet. And it's it's the

671
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: reason that I think your book which we've been referencing,

672
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: Believing Um. The full title for our listeners is Believing

673
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: our thirty year journey to and Gender Violence. And you

674
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: speak to all of these braw It ends of many

675
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: spectrums and one that you touched on earlier, which which

676
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: I would love to ask about specifically, because we see

677
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: a withholding um not only of experience, but of the

678
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: economy in gender violence. And we see the same that

679
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 1: is caused by racism. And and you say, I'm going

680
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: to directly quote you if you don't mind me quoting

681
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: you to you, but I want people at home to

682
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: hear this. You said, there will be no complete elimination

683
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: of gender based violence until racism and its many forms

684
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: is identified and addressed. But the reverse is also true.

685
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: Can you explain to people listening why gender based violence

686
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: and racism are are so intertwined and and so deeply linked. No,

687
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: it's it is really hard to explain it. But let

688
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: me give you some examples, and then we can talk

689
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: about whether or not those way sense and what we need,

690
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 1: what more we need to say. So, first of all,

691
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: we have the data. We know, for example, that Native

692
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: American women experience sexual assault at a rate of about

693
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: fifties ex percent. We have figures, and these figures are

694
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: always lower than actuality. These are reported figures. We have

695
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: figures and say that overall women experience when and for

696
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: women experience sexual assault. So look at the numbers for

697
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: Native women. And we also know that or so by

698
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: some calculations, including a Justice Department, that those assaults are

699
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: committed by non Native men m HM, which helps us

700
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: to under to really understand the racial dynamics that are

701
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: going on. We know, for example, that black women are

702
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: murdered at twice the rate murdered by men. It twice

703
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 1: the rate that other women, all other women are are murdered.

704
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: And we know that women of color experience sexual harassment

705
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: at a higher rate then white women. So here we are,

706
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:38,439
Speaker 1: We've got all this information about how these behaviors get

707
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: visited on women of color that in all by all

708
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: indications that it's not just because they're women, but it's

709
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: because they are Asian women or Asian American women, or

710
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 1: because they are Black women, or because they are Native

711
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: American women. That's part of the calculus. But we have

712
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,439
Speaker 1: rules and just say, okay, let's treat all women the same.

713
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: You're not going to be able to get wed of

714
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: the problem that these women experience, even if you have

715
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 1: something called gender equality, even if you are taking care

716
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: of gender issues, because there will always be that element

717
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: of racism that will make them particularly vulnerable. So that margin,

718
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: the gap between what let's a white women experience and

719
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: Native American women experience could will theoretically still be there

720
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: because they are Native American um And so that's part

721
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 1: of what I want people to understand about how race

722
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: intersects and combines and exacerbates the problem of gender violence.

723
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: The other part of what I want to talk about

724
00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 1: is that women of color are often put in this

725
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: terrible position. I'm not being able to complain about their problems,

726
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: especially where their abuser is another person of color, because

727
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: there is so much racism that exists in this country

728
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: that they know that by complaining they are going to

729
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: bring in more racist systems into their communities. They know

730
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: they have to go to these racist systems to complain,

731
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: and many of them don't want to do it. I

732
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 1: hear from young black women who say, how can I

733
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: move forward with my complaint? Against a black man and

734
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,879
Speaker 1: not be told that I'm a traitor to my race.

735
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I hear from young black

736
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 1: men who say, I really support your effort to end

737
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 1: violence against women. I have sisters, I have a mother,

738
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: I have friends. I know the problem, But they also

739
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: know about our history of abusing and accusing black men

740
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: of things that they have not done. All of these

741
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: things are based on stereotypes and bias, racial bias, and

742
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: so we are caught and central to that tension is racism.

743
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: But what happens is that it causes us not to

744
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: be able to deal with a problem of gender violence.

745
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: And so it is a problem that I see over

746
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: and over again. It's one of those things that we

747
00:55:52,400 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: don't talk about. We don't talk about violence against men either. Yeah, yeah,

748
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 1: we don't talk about it, except too in some cases

749
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: tell men that they need to man up and respond

750
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: with violence, and that's the way to stop it. But

751
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: the way that we sort of tried to pigeonhole and

752
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:21,919
Speaker 1: simply oversimplify violence against women when it comes to race,

753
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: when it comes to sexual identity, is also sort of

754
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 1: keeping us back, you know. And what happens is that

755
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: people air on the side very often of not bringing

756
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: harm into the communities, and so they don't engage these

757
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: the systems that are not meant to help them, that

758
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 1: have been historically caused them more harm than good. Yeah,

759
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: so we've got a very complicated problem. We cannot deal

760
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: with the gender violence problem them without dealing with racism,

761
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 1: and we can't deal with racism without dealing with the

762
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,280
Speaker 1: gender violence problem. I think it's so helpful for people

763
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: to hear and and I think it really clarifies how

764
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: race and sex are often weaponized. You know, when we

765
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: think about some of our most impactful historical examples, some

766
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: of the darkest stains on American history. When you think

767
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: about the Tulsa race massacre that began out of racism,

768
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: and the accusation was this young black man attacked a

769
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: white woman and an elevator, but he didn't, but it

770
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: was a way to weaponize her sex and his race.

771
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: And what came of that, I mean, hundreds of people

772
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: being murdered. By the way, going back to the economy,

773
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: you know, two point nine million dollars then withheld in

774
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: unpaid insurance claims, which is worth five hundred million dollar

775
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: dollars now withheld from the black community in Oklahoma. That's

776
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: a vacuum for the whole economy born out of an

777
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: incendiary moment of racism that weaponized sex. It happened to

778
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: Emmett Till Supposedly this young boy whistled at a white woman, who,

779
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: by the way, years later admitted he never did such

780
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: a thing, and this boy was brutally murdered. There there

781
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: are examples of intersections of racist and sexist violence and

782
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: how in through the lens of white supremacy, the folks

783
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: in that sort of position of supremacist power can harm everyone.

784
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,919
Speaker 1: And and when you think about, or when I think about,

785
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: I should say, what the legacy of that kind of

786
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: violence looks like. And and violence that gets set on

787
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: an entire community, and the violence that has been set

788
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: against communities of color and in particular the Black community,

789
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 1: and the data that's come out about, you know, racist

790
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: policies that were literally designed to pull fathers out of communities,

791
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: to destabilize communities, to work with the carceral system and

792
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: imprison millions of people. I would struggle to interact in

793
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: that system with my community at all. I struggle with

794
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: it as a woman, as a woman who has experienced

795
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: sexual violence. I struggle because reporting didn't help me put

796
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: a target on my back. It was traumatizing, it was

797
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 1: it created further violence. And so when women say to me,

798
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to go talk to those people, I understand,

799
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: And yet I know we all say, but we have

800
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 1: to and will support you, and we can do it together.

801
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: And I will say, similarly to what you mentioned about

802
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: your family we earlier, when you have a support system,

803
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 1: you can navigate it, but it doesn't mean it's easy.

804
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: And I offer, you know, a historical example, a portion

805
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: of a personal story and a reference to a personal

806
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: story you told earlier to our audience to try to

807
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: kind of crystallize how infectiously interconnected these systems are. Because

808
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: you're right, if we do not root out both racism

809
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: and sexism new it's almost like getting a piece of

810
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 1: a tumor but not the whole thing, and then a

811
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: bunch of new tumors pop up. Unless we fix those

812
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 1: root issues, we're never going to heal the illness of

813
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: all of these kinds of violence. Yeah, and the and

814
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: as you say, the racism is a tool and the

815
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: sexism is a tool. And when it comes down to it,

816
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, I think the feminists would say that, you know,

817
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: the beneficiary is patriarchy. But what we are coming to

818
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 1: terms with, and I believe we're coming to understand that

819
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: that is not worth saving, that the patriarchy is not

820
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 1: worth saving, and it's causing too much harm. And so

821
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: that's where we have to be to understand why women

822
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: are are devalued in so many parts of our lives.

823
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: Why we you know, we have a Supreme Court in

824
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 1: in the case of the United States versus Morrison, say

825
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: that Congress exceeds its stority to and act protections for

826
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: women against violence because women's and the abuse the experience

827
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:58,919
Speaker 1: has no impact on interstate commerce. Oh of course it does.

828
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: And there's mound of evidence it says it does. There

829
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: wasn't two thousand when the case was decided. There was

830
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 1: mounds of evidence, But we were allowing these these ideas

831
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: about patriarchy and who has worth to control our legal decisions.

832
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: And that continues today. So we do have a long

833
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: way to go. And and when I hear you talk,

834
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 1: I hear this sense of I want to hope. I

835
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: really do want to hope, But my goodness, there's so

836
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: much we have to dig our way out of and

837
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. But I'm still of the belief that

838
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 1: we have to continue, we have to continue to believe

839
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: that we are worth it, and that change is possible.

840
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: And you know, when I go back and I think

841
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: about my life, change is possible, and I think about

842
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: the life of my My mother lived. You know, she

843
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: was born in leven and jim Crow, Arkansas, and moved

844
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: to jim Crow, Oklahoma. You know when she was a

845
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: little girl. I mean, things changed dramatically in her life.

846
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: She lived to be ninety, so she gets to see

847
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: some of that change, and she saw it in the

848
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: lives of her children. I don't know that I'll live

849
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 1: to ninety. I'd like to maybe I'd like to live

850
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: even longer than that. But the last thirty years things

851
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: have changed. The conversation have changed. You know, there would

852
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: not be a program on any station or any platform

853
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 1: that would be talking about these issues in the way

854
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 1: that we are talking, right, and that is where society

855
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: begins to build the change that we need. So I

856
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: have a question about that change that feels really pressing

857
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 1: now because we're talking about why we do hold hope

858
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: and the amount of change we've seen in the amount

859
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: of winds we've had, including all the women have been

860
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: elected to office, and and the way we're having these

861
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 1: conversations now, and something that really sticks out to me

862
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 1: when I think about how much backsliding happened in the

863
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 1: last presidential administration for women. You know, we horrifically elected

864
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: a man to the highest office in the land who

865
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: bragged about grabbing women by the pussy, and uh, for

866
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 1: some reason, that was okay in the same way that

867
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: this lie about interstate commerce was okay because in some

868
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: rooms people don't believe women like us deserve a voice

869
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 1: or bodily autonomy. And when we think about generational change,

870
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 1: it's not lost on me that we currently have a president,

871
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: you know, President Biden, who during the Obama Biden administration

872
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: when he was the Vice president, made gender violence his cause.

873
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 1: He helped to launch It's on Us as a White

874
01:04:55,680 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 1: House governmental program to end sexual violence. And yet when

875
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: language was different and our understanding of systems was different

876
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, when you testified in front of the

877
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee, Joe Biden was as dismissive of view as

878
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 1: everybody else. And he has since apologized to you for

879
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: his role in the in those hearings and you actually

880
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 1: endorsed him for president, and that to me feels like,

881
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: you know, for anyone out there who thinks we live

882
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: in an age of cancel culture, I'm like, actually, we

883
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 1: just want you to learn and do better, and once

884
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: you do better, you can come back to the fold. Um.

885
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 1: I'm I'm really curious about you know, that journey that,

886
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 1: as fate would have it, you've been on with the president.

887
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: What has it been like to see someone, you know,

888
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 1: go from the power of a senator to the power

889
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,959
Speaker 1: of a vice president to the power of president who

890
01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: has made efforts to grow and change his conversation. What

891
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 1: what has that been like for the two of you. Well,

892
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: my message to Joe Biden that is in the book

893
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: is that you can do more. Yes, you can do more.

894
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: You are president of the United States. You can take

895
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 1: on this problem. You can have a courage. You can

896
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: make a commitment to boil the ocean, to really interrogate,

897
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 1: to to make sure that all of the agencies under

898
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 1: your executive authority are affirmatively approaching the problem of gender

899
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: violence in in ways that support victims and survivors, whether

900
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 1: it's you know, Department of Housing, education, Health in human services,

901
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 1: all of Labor Department, all of those are you know,

902
01:06:54,720 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 1: these are places where you have absolute authority and you

903
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: can control, and so it is on us. It is

904
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: on us, but it is in particular it's on you,

905
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, and that is that's where it has to start.

906
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: It has to start with the president. I'm not sure

907
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden's transition is complete, it kind of. It

908
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: really does depend on how he governs as president. When

909
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:33,600
Speaker 1: you have that platform and that power that really exceeds

910
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 1: what anybody else in this country he has, no matter

911
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 1: what people say, I mean, you've got that platform where

912
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 1: you can you can say, you know, as he did

913
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 1: when he was Vice president and left the Obama administration,

914
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to cure cancer. He could say I'm going

915
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: to fix gender based violence. I'm gonna fix this problem

916
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: because it's so meaningful to me. I mean, and I

917
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: know he has a White House office that's focus on

918
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: gender equity, but this has to be a priority. You know,

919
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: the other part of your question really is goes to

920
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 1: what is that personal evolution? I think for me, the

921
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 1: personal evolution is to realize that one we can't look

922
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 1: for the perfect savior in this work. I mean, that's

923
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 1: what we we you know, we look for the the

924
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 1: villain and then the hero. But what we have to

925
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: realize is that is that individuals are human and they

926
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:42,720
Speaker 1: have to be treated like what you know. In addition

927
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 1: to calling on Joe Biden to respond to this crisis,

928
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 1: you know, I've also said that there should be an

929
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: investigation into the complaint of Terra Read because we are

930
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: human and because all of us are human, and we

931
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 1: need to be able to, one way or the other

932
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:07,800
Speaker 1: put to rest accusations against the people who are in leadership.

933
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 1: So it's not as though I'm saying, you know, Joe

934
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 1: Biden has evolved now to some status that we have

935
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:24,360
Speaker 1: to um to glorify. But I am saying that we

936
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 1: can call on our leaders to be accountable and in

937
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: this and and I'll just say, for me, this whole

938
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: ideal accountability feels even much more urgent after a year,

939
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 1: the year of when it was the whole world was

940
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 1: looking at problems, all kinds of problems, including gender violence,

941
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: which surge during COVID and during the pandemic, when we

942
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 1: were saying it's finally time for us to see some

943
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: of these problems. Yeah, we have to. And I think

944
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 1: you're right. You know, you can look at someone who's

945
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,679
Speaker 1: had a public career as long as the president has

946
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:17,720
Speaker 1: and appreciate their growth and say, but prove to me

947
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: how much you've grown, do more you've gotten here? What's next?

948
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 1: What comes next? And and I agree with you. I

949
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 1: I want to see accountability in Washington, period. I want

950
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 1: to see women be listened to. Period. I'm infuriated that

951
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:37,920
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice decided to take Trump's side in

952
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:40,679
Speaker 1: the E. G. And Carol case. He is under court

953
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 1: order to submit his d n A in the rape

954
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 1: case and just won't do it, And apparently it is

955
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 1: getting away with it because he's a former president. Twenty

956
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: six women have accused him of sexual assault, there's never

957
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 1: been an investigation. Matt Gates ven mode a sex trafficker

958
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 1: and is still an elected official. I mean, what is

959
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:04,479
Speaker 1: happening here? And I think to your point, you know

960
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 1: that you made earlier even this idea of what we

961
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 1: can't prove that there's an economic effect, So who cares

962
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 1: what's happening to these women? A? Yes, you can prove it,

963
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 1: and be you should care. And I would like to

964
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 1: see us reach a moment when what matters to us

965
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 1: matters to the people in power. We see it on

966
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 1: social media, we see hashtags, as you mentioned, me to

967
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 1: nineteen million posts why I left, Why I stayed. These

968
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 1: these phrases behind a pound sign have given voice to

969
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 1: countless women that have otherwise been silenced over years, over decades.

970
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 1: And I think the the chorus of our voices that

971
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 1: technology has allowed is incredible, and I know it's made

972
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:56,520
Speaker 1: an impact. But my hope is that we will see

973
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 1: that impact go into the law books, go into the

974
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 1: bills that pass and and change things in this generation,

975
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 1: in this moment, And I wonder, are there certain individuals

976
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:14,080
Speaker 1: or organizations people who are doing that work, who are

977
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 1: pressing to take the public discourse into the halls of government,

978
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 1: into the halls of justice. Who who are you working with?

979
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:26,679
Speaker 1: Who are you following? Who? Who should we know about

980
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 1: to look to um to support in this moment. You know,

981
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: that is such a tricky question because there's so many organizations.

982
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:36,639
Speaker 1: You know, I'm on the board of the National Women's

983
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:40,599
Speaker 1: Law Center, so of course that's someone that I think

984
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: of automatically, you know, I there are different kinds of

985
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 1: organizations equal rights advocates who are based in San Francisco

986
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 1: whose work I know, you know, these are the legal growth,

987
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,679
Speaker 1: But there are also all of these groups like Girls,

988
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 1: Girls with Gender Actorly and UH, Black Women's blue Print

989
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:06,959
Speaker 1: and UM, these organizations that are I believe every day

990
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:12,080
Speaker 1: speaking truth to power, who are out there carrying the

991
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 1: message of our value and of our worth and the

992
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 1: need for change. I am of the mind that there's

993
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: so much of a burden on our groups. They are

994
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 1: typically undefunded in their overwork. Even in terms of philanthropy,

995
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: women's groups do not get nearly the kind of support

996
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: that our issues command. But they're still they It's the

997
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 1: old people used to say, making a way out of

998
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 1: no way, and and we need to support them. So

999
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 1: I think that there are groups that are doing work nationally,

1000
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:52,439
Speaker 1: but there are also groups that are doing work locally.

1001
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:55,720
Speaker 1: And one message that I would have is for those

1002
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 1: of us who can, we shouldn't support them. We need

1003
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 1: to support them UM with our money and with our

1004
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 1: support are using whatever platform said. We have to support

1005
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 1: them with our voices and with our energy and time.

1006
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:15,320
Speaker 1: So the work is going on out there, but we

1007
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: really need allies among leaders and and every organization. You know,

1008
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: within every work organization, there are there are movements, and

1009
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 1: you're seeing that now more than ever in corporate organizations.

1010
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:32,719
Speaker 1: There are employee movements in places like Google and Uber,

1011
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:36,480
Speaker 1: where the movement are coming from inside of those organizations

1012
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: to change those organizations. And that is encouraging. But again,

1013
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: the pressure on the leaders of those organizations have to

1014
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 1: come not just from their employees. They have to come

1015
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:57,840
Speaker 1: from our government too, and our courts. You mentioned the

1016
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 1: court systems. You know, we still have judicial decisions made

1017
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 1: by judges that tolerate basically a certain level of abuse

1018
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 1: women in the workplace. And so there's no one answer,

1019
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:23,080
Speaker 1: there's no one simple fix, but there are solutions and

1020
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: there is movement. And I call the book Believing because

1021
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 1: I do believe that change is possible, and I think

1022
01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely certain that we have more tools today than

1023
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:45,680
Speaker 1: we have ever had before, and that we need to

1024
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 1: utilize m HM. So for the people who look up

1025
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:53,759
Speaker 1: to you as a leader and who who might ask

1026
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 1: what should I do, where should I start? Who should

1027
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: I support? Is there advice you have for them? I

1028
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,639
Speaker 1: tell them, I don't you know, it's funny, you said,

1029
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 1: I endorsed Joe Biden. I told people that I was

1030
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 1: voting for Joe Biden. I don't even know what a

1031
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 1: political endorsement is because I don't do them. But I

1032
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 1: think we need to put pressure on all of our

1033
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 1: leaders any location that we have, whether it is an

1034
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:27,840
Speaker 1: organization that we belong to, because those, you know, these

1035
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:31,959
Speaker 1: membership organizations are often riddled with the same kind of problems.

1036
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 1: Whether it's a museum that we we frequent, whether it

1037
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 1: it's a a school that we graduated from. UM, I

1038
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:46,840
Speaker 1: think we need to use our power wherever we have

1039
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 1: it to address these issues. And so UM, I can't

1040
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 1: say that there's one person who we need to to

1041
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:02,519
Speaker 1: press other than the president it but I do think

1042
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:06,120
Speaker 1: that we need to understand. If we start to really

1043
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 1: inform ourselves about the significance of the moment that we face,

1044
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 1: I think we will see the urgency and that then

1045
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 1: we will find where we can use our voice as

1046
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 1: best in order to make change. Yes, And I think

1047
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:26,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a great point you make. This

1048
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 1: is a it is a national issue for us, it

1049
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 1: is a global issue for women around the world. We

1050
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:36,240
Speaker 1: have to press the president, no matter who he is

1051
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:40,439
Speaker 1: or who she is eventually God willing sooner than later.

1052
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:43,280
Speaker 1: And each of us, no matter where we find ourselves

1053
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:46,720
Speaker 1: in the country, should press our local officials, call our senators,

1054
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:50,960
Speaker 1: call our congress people, reach out to the mayor, our

1055
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 1: state governors. You know, really let it. Let every single

1056
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 1: person who represents us know that we want all of

1057
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:04,720
Speaker 1: our issues to be framed through this one because, as

1058
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:08,799
Speaker 1: you said, it affects everything, every aspect of our lives,

1059
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 1: our work, our families, our kids, our health, all of it.

1060
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:15,040
Speaker 1: And I told you the story earlier about this friend

1061
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 1: of mine who um who interceded when the boys were

1062
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:21,760
Speaker 1: chasing the girl. And one of the things that they

1063
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:27,560
Speaker 1: do is to talk to their children's teachers and to

1064
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 1: talk about gender equality and how it gets experience in classroom.

1065
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,439
Speaker 1: And you know, I know people and they have included

1066
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:42,920
Speaker 1: who buy books for classrooms that show gender equity, so

1067
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:46,720
Speaker 1: that the children and the teacher, the teachers are exposed

1068
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:52,680
Speaker 1: to different ways of understanding our roles in society. I

1069
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 1: think all of those things are on the table, and

1070
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:00,639
Speaker 1: I think we can do both that it was kind

1071
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:06,400
Speaker 1: of direct engagement as well as advocate for systemic change.

1072
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 1: I've got to both local, local, to national. Yeah, we've

1073
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 1: covered a lot. Indeed, I have one last question for you.

1074
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:18,800
Speaker 1: That is my favorite thing to ask everyone who comes

1075
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: on the show, because we are very much about, you know,

1076
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:28,639
Speaker 1: being works in progress here, and I'm curious what for you,

1077
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:31,719
Speaker 1: you know, at this incredible moment in your life, what

1078
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:35,400
Speaker 1: feels like a work in progress to you? Well, you know,

1079
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:39,639
Speaker 1: I talk the book is a thirty year journey, but

1080
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:42,800
Speaker 1: it's not the end of the journey. It's a thirty

1081
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 1: year journey to end gender violence. But we are not

1082
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 1: there yet. We are I'm not even saying we're even

1083
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 1: halfway there yet. It is a work in pro progress.

1084
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 1: This fight too, to make sure that people are safe

1085
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 1: and and secure and can really enjoy the full benefits

1086
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:08,720
Speaker 1: of all of their talents and skills. That really, you know,

1087
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:11,520
Speaker 1: the work that I'm doing is a work in progress.

1088
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:15,240
Speaker 1: I hope that I will have many more years to

1089
01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:17,400
Speaker 1: invest in it. But one of the things that I'm

1090
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 1: absolutely certain of is that even if I don't, there

1091
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 1: is a new generation of warriors, I'll say, who will

1092
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 1: take up the mantle and and move us to where

1093
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:40,160
Speaker 1: we need to go. It's a relay. You've read that, Yeah,

1094
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:42,800
Speaker 1: you know, I do tell that story about I used

1095
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:45,760
Speaker 1: to think that getting to equality and equity in the

1096
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 1: world is going to be a sprint, and then I thought,

1097
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:54,320
Speaker 1: you know, after a few years of back setbacks, I

1098
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:57,800
Speaker 1: thought maybe it's more of a marathon. And now I

1099
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:01,080
Speaker 1: know it's a relay. It is a like and I'm

1100
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 1: gonna hand the baton to to someone else, but I'm

1101
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:08,640
Speaker 1: not quite ready to hand off yet. Well, we we

1102
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 1: love you carrying it. And I think that anyone who's

1103
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:15,160
Speaker 1: lucky enough to you know, work with you, or or

1104
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:19,519
Speaker 1: even in parallel to you, understand the energy of of

1105
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:23,639
Speaker 1: what moves between us. And yeah, we have a long

1106
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 1: way to go, but you've set an incredible road for us,

1107
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:30,320
Speaker 1: and you've pointed us in the right direction. So thank you,

1108
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:34,440
Speaker 1: and thank you for having me. This is a wonderful conversation.

1109
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:44,160
Speaker 1: This has been such a joy.