WEBVTT - Clay Travis chats at length with Paul Finebaum 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:05.760 This is Wins and Losses with Clay Travis. Play talks 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:09.840 with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business. 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:20.279 Now here's Clay Travis. Welcome in. I'm Clay Travis. This 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.079 is the Wins and Losses Podcast. I hope all of 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.120 you are enjoying our conversations as we continue to roll. 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.280 This is a weekly show. This is the first one 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.639 you've ever heard to. You're about to listen to Paul 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:35.559 Findbaum of the SEC Network of ESPN, Jock's Radio Network, 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.839 all different sorts of different places he has been over 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:39.199 the years as a friend of mine. I think you 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.760 guys are gonna enjoy this conversation and if you enjoy 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.720 this one, you'll probably like Jason Whitlock, Shannon Terry, SEC 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:49.159 Commissioner Greg Sanky, as well as Washington State head football 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:51.839 coach Mike Leach. The goal with the podcast is to 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.920 examine some of the wins and losses that we all 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.280 have in our career as we moved throughout the process 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.240 of our lives. And without further ado, let me go 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:03.680 ahead and bring in Paul find Bomb. You can find 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.200 him on Twitter at find bomb. You can listen to 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.480 him every single day from two to six Eastern on 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.080 the radio. You can watch the simulcast of that radio 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.840 show on the SEC network. And recently, down at the 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:22.120 beaches of Destined, there was a Cosmopolitan, which was a 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.280 drink named after Paul find Bomb at the five year 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:29.000 anniversary party of the launch of the SEC network. And 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.440 I want to start there, and we'll probably cycle back 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:33.800 around to a lot of different questions, but I wanted 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.640 to jump off right there. First of all, Paul, thanks 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.880 for coming on. Secondly, if I had told you five 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.720 or ten years ago that there would be a cocktail 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:45.840 named after you at an SEC and ESPN event, your 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.160 response would have been what, I can't well, I probably 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.640 could say it, but I try not to curse too loudly, 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:54.160 but I would say you you were out of your 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.440 effing mind. Yes, um, you know, when I saw your tweet, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.480 I had not gone down to the cock party yet. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:04.280 I was up in my room, and by the way, 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.400 I didn't have it. Although I would have liked to, 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:08.160 I didn't have it. By the way, I found it 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.519 to be pretty good. I felt that I obligated to 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.600 try it. You know me pretty well, Clay. So you're 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.680 you're You're not going to raise your eyebrows A sum might, 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:19.680 but I'm I'm still kind of amazed what's going on today? 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.640 So yeah, I would not have believed it because you 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.200 had to understand the times, and you had to understand 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:32.200 the toxic nature between me and many people in college 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.680 athletics for from top down to the bottom. Uh. So 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:37.639 let's kind of circle back around because one of the 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:39.440 good things we get to do on wins and losses 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.400 is I'm sure you get asked this question all the 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.079 time because you're on college campuses on a regular basis, 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.920 and kids, undoubtedly boys and girls have come up to you, 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.760 kids in school and they'll say, I love your job. 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.200 How did you get that job? I get it a lot. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.400 Anybody in the world of sports, I think gets it 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.600 a lot. So I want to go back all the 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.720 way to Paul find Bomb. You are growing up in Memphis, 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.760 ten see right, Uh, you are a young kid. What 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.160 is your upbringing like in Memphis? And as we circle through, 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.920 the goal is to give people an indication of not 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.519 that you necessarily can follow the same path, but how 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.360 to be tough, how to stick to your guns, so 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.800 to speak, and how you end up doing a job 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.280 like yours or mine or any other of the number 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.320 of people that we're going to talk to on this podcast. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.760 But you're growing up in Memphis. What was your youth 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:32.240 like in Memphis? It was pretty normal, Uh, at least 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:36.120 for a while. I was the youngest of two two 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:39.480 New Yorkers, including my sister was from New York. I 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.000 was born in Memphis by about three or four months, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:47.560 so you can figure out where I was conceived. And it, Uh, yeah, 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:54.040 it was just a listen looking back, you know, literally baseball, basketball, 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.560 Uh when we we just were we were not we 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:02.800 were kind of lower the middle class. Uh maybe slowly 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.560 moving up in the world with the times, and you know, 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.200 I there's just there was just nothing really extraordinary about it. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.080 I mean I was a happy kid. I was interested 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:15.720 in a lot of things, sports being number one, and 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.520 then I gravitated a little bit toward politics. My parents 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.800 were fairly uh involved in that as well. And and 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.839 and that was really the pretty much the base you know, 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:31.680 from you know, five to ten, the thirteen up until 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:34.520 fifteen when it all changed, all right, And I'll get 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.840 to what happened when you were fifteen years old. But 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.120 as a kid growing up, you are Jewish. I mean, 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.680 I don't think that's a great surprise. Did you have 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.200 did you have a sense of feeling a little bit 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:46.640 like an outsider in Memphis? Or and I don't. I 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.040 don't really genuinely have an answer for this. I'm curious 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.400 what you what you'll tell us. Sometimes, you know, the 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.040 Jewish community and even a city where Memphis doesn't have 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.720 a huge Jewish population, but it can feel so welcoming that, 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.479 you know, you you don't even realize how different you 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.800 might be than everybody else who's going to Christian church 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.200 and whatnot Memphis, which is a very religious and UH 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.520 and and Christianity based city. Did you feel different? Did 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.400 you feel a little bit like an outsider? Or were 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.720 you even cognizant of the distance between you and maybe 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:18.680 other people? Not at first, because our our neighborhood, we 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.440 lived about three or four blocks from a synagogue. In 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:26.919 our neighborhood was primarily UH refugees from from Brooklyn and 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.560 UH the majority were Jewish. So I mean I grew 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.279 up in that world. Um as I got a little 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.080 bit older, I began to sense the difference. Uh. I 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.599 was very proud of what I was, but you know, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.800 I had friends who uh were always taking an insult 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:43.520 the wrong way. I didn't. That was a little more 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.840 open minded. So it was I can't say, Clay that 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.440 it held me back at all. Um. I was always 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.480 fairly open minded to other people, and and that changed 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:56.239 a little bit later when I went to a Catholic 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.240 high school. Yeah, so how did your family? How did 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.040 your mom and dad end up in Memphis? Because you 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:02.719 said they're from New York. I mean that's a pretty 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.360 big departure. What was it that brought them to Memphis? Yeah, 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.280 it was it was really related to my my my 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.800 mother's brother. Uh. He was in the service and was 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:17.120 relocated or based somewhere in jack I think it was 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.719 near Jackson, Tennessee. Don't remember exactly why. Uh So my 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:25.080 my my grandmother, who was widowed at an early age, 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.240 and my mom, who was still in high school, moved 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.240 to Jackson. And then my my my uncle married a 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.039 lady from Memphis, so they moved to Memphis, and my 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:40.320 father followed my uh my uncle uh in uh in business, 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.279 so he moved there as well. All right, so, uh, 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.360 you grow up and uh in Memphis at the time 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.600 you're a young kid, do you remember Uh. For instance, 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.280 Martin Luther King being assassinated in nineteen sixty eight. Do 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.839 you have any any what do you remember about then? Yeah, 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.960 I mean I was twelve years old and uh eleven 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:01.200 or twelve, I'm trying to remember. Uh may have been eleven. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.560 And it was a big deal. I mean I was 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.240 very much into the news at the time, Clay, unlike 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.080 maybe your normal kid at the at that age who 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.239 was watching more sports. Uh, this is a big story 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.320 I'm about to break. But this is pre ESPN and uh, 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.400 so I remember the night very well, um, and I 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:25.160 was very emotional and moved by it. I had my 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.600 parents had bought me a record. Now I'm I'm talking 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.000 about a vinyl record a year or two earlier of 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:35.239 famous speeches, one being John F. Jfk Uh, the second 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.400 being Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream speech and 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.520 I memorized that speech. This is before he died, and uh, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.120 he was an important person to me. Um, and I'll 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:49.080 never forget. Three days after he was assassinated, there was 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.480 going to be a march in Memphis, and my best 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.160 friend and I wanted to go, uh and and show 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:58.560 our respects. I mean we were eleven years old, and 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.840 my parents of course forbid us from going. But I mean, 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.800 I was that was an eleven year old activists at 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.320 the time. It was. It was a seminal moment in 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:11.480 my youth, his assassination. How did that impact overall in 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.640 Memphis in your mind, because I mean it's hard. I mean, 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.200 I guess people who maybe live in Dallas and were 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.600 around when JFK was shot, there is a certain level 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.880 of I want to say, almost malaise that almost descends 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.400 over a city when it's connected to something like that. 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.000 And I think about the school book depository in Dallas, 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.960 and it's obviously been fifty years since that happened in Memphis, 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:34.560 But as a kid, did you kind of have that 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.560 feeling at eleven, twelve, fourteen years old that's something bad 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:39.160 had happened in the city and it kind of hangs 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.360 over the city, no doubt. No, the city was Memphis 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.200 was unlike a lot of cities. Uh. It was a 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.079 big metropolitan area, a little bit like Nashville maybe, where 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.520 you didn't have all this. I lived in Birmingham later, 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.760 which had I think thirty seven different municipalities in one 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.760 county for obvious reasons, Memphis wasn't like that. So I mean, 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:02.600 you you, you were you. You engaged UH people of 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.320 different races all the time, but the city was torn apart, 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:08.880 and it was really not to jump too far ahead, 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.960 but it was really a sporting event that happened five 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.760 years later that saved the city. And that was when 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.480 Memphis State UH went to the n C Double A 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:20.920 Championship game to play a u C l A. It 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.760 was a night Bill Walton went out of twenty two 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.080 from the field, and that one event brought the city together. 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.880 And I think without that singular event, that that run 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.360 to the final four, Memphis would have been destroyed by 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.240 the way. It didn't come out of it that well anyway, 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.360 because Memphis for a long time was the dominant city. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.400 And UH, about thirty years later they blinked and the 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.120 next thing you know, Nashville had blown them away. All right, 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.560 So let's let's go into you said you went to 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.199 a to a Catholic high school. I think you said, 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:53.760 how good of a student were you? Were you committed 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.040 to school work? I mean, how would you characterize yourself 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.360 from an academic perspective? I was interested it in what 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.079 I cared about, Uh, so when it when it came 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.480 to history or you know, literature, things like that, I 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.000 was all over it. I was not much on math 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.720 and science. So I mean I was a good student, 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:17.920 I wasn't a great student. Um I I've had it 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.440 kind of in my mind. Maybe by the time I 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.280 got to high school. Uh my, my interests were changing. 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:28.280 This is now in the early seventies, Watergate had happened. 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:32.199 I began gravitating towards in my mind newspapers and journalism 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:36.000 and politics. These were things that fascinated me. So I 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.079 was still somewhat unclear what I wanted to do. I 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.040 probably at the time, if you said what what would 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.000 you like to be involved with, it would have been 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.720 politics of some sort. I read your most recent book, 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.880 which I believe my conference is better than your conference. 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:52.600 You can tell me if I'm I'm messing up the 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.640 title there. It's a fantastic book. I would tell people 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.760 to go check it out. Um. And you mentioned about 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:00.760 what happened at the age of fifth teen and how 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.920 much it impacted your life. What happened to you when 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:08.000 you were fifteen, Well, I had uh my my dad 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.000 had had a heart attack about three or four years 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.960 earlier and had not been well. I mean, he had recovered, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:18.119 but you could tell he was still fragile. And Uh, 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.800 on a you know, at the age of forty nine, 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:27.120 on on the early morning hours of March five, v one, Uh, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:32.920 he suffered a massive heart attack and and died, you know, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.040 with my with my mom and myself and my older 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.360 sister around him. We weren't a hundred percent sure, but yeah, 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.200 I mean you knew even a fifteen you knew what 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.880 was going on. And it was that moment, Clay that 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.760 you know, this idyllic life where you know, two my 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:52.120 two parents and car pools and camp and and singing 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.920 songs going off to a family vacation in the car 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:03.200 all came to a a shattering halt. Uh, life turned 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.320 upside down. And what was interesting is that it didn't 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.440 It may not have hit me until a little bit later, 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:13.600 because uh, you're fifteen, you're on your way to being sixteen. 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:17.720 Your your life is changing as well. So uh from that, 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.040 I mean there's a line of demarcation in that line 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:21.960 in the in the Jewish world, when you when you 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.440 are bar mitzvahed at thirteen, you're supposed to become a 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.520 man Uh. It took me two years later. But but 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.040 you know, in trying to deal with that, I mean, 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.320 I didn't understand why my mother was uh, you know, 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.600 completely turned upside down. I didn't know a lot of 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:38.480 other things. But what I what I found out pretty 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:44.160 quickly was people, uh, without really being intentional, it could 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.080 be fairly cruel by by by really their inaction all 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.360 of a sudden, you know, a week for a week, 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.800 everyone comes to your house, uh, and everyone's sorry. And 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.760 then the next Monday comes around and nobody, nobody cares, 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.360 nobody remembers uh. And and you're part of a family 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.000 who you know, we we were doing okay, and suddenly 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.720 we really didn't have very much at all. And you know, 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:12.080 I was, you know, it was even now, and I 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:17.920 struggled to completely put it into perspective because, uh, it 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.240 was one of those shattering moments, those lines in your 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.080 life that you'll you know, maybe I'm still not over it, 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.240 because I still have a hard time talking about it. 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.839 So that happens when you're fifteen years old. You then 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.520 go on to high school and you said you had 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.000 a sister. How old was she at the time? She 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.360 was nearly five years older. Than me. So she was 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.720 a little more Uh. I mean she was already in school, 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:43.760 in college, so she she may may have been a 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.319 slightly better prepared. Now, now I will say Clay, that 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.959 you know, you turned sixteen, you started driving. I I 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.880 got my mother quickly pulled me out of the Catholic 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.800 high school and I went to public school. And but 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.160 for a while, it's not you know, you get through 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.560 it because you start meeting people, you start having friends, 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:07.679 you start going out, you start and and I all 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.480 of a sudden, your life becomes a bit of a blur. Uh. 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.680 And it hit me a little bit later, uh, really 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.480 a lot later, what really happened? What? What? How my 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.200 life had changed, not not in so much my life, 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.840 but my mother's life. I guess it is maybe the 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.320 more accurate way of putting it well. And also what 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.920 it does is at an age like that, you go 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.240 from maybe not being that cognizant of finances, right, I mean, 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.400 if you're fortunate enough to have two parents and things 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.880 are going fairly well, to suddenly you snap your fingers 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.800 and your dad, who I'm assuming was the primary breadwinner 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.400 in your family, is not there. And that probably breeds 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.840 a little bit of financial insecurity, not only at that 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:47.680 point in your life, but to a certain extent, has 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.280 to impact you for years ahead. Now every everything. I mean, 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:55.040 I yeah, from that moment on, I never owned a 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.880 stitch of clothes that wasn't bought at a at a 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.640 going out a business sale. I mean I just uh, 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.880 you just got used to it. Uh. And by the way, 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:06.920 you didn't really care because you didn't know any better. 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.680 But the day it really uh, I think hit me 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.560 the hardest, Clay, Uh was the day I went to 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.720 school at Tennessee. Uh I. Uh. Memphis is still a 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.920 pretty good distance from Tennessee, but I went up there. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:25.120 Uh I did not have a car, um, So how 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:26.720 did you get there? So for people who don't know 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:28.400 who are listening to us, who may be in different 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.520 parts of the country, Memphis and Knoxville are in the 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:36.280 same state. But you can drive quicker from Nashville to Canada. 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:40.000 This is not an exaggeration. You can Nashville to Canada 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.240 faster than you can go Memphis to Knoxville. So the 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.400 way the state of Tennessee is set up, there's a 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.920 huge geographical expanse between Memphis and Knoxville. Or I should say, 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:51.560 Memphis all the way to the end of the state, 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.120 not just to to Knoxville, because somebody will get on 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.440 Twitter and correct me. But it's a huge, long, expansive state. 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:59.920 So it's a different culture. So how do you get there? 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.560 I mean I went there on a greyhound bus. So 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.560 you're going to way to college and you waved to 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:08.440 mom and get on a greyhound bus and the next 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:12.600 stop you're off in Knoxville. Yeah, and uh, you know, 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:14.640 I get there and I had a trunk and that's 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.640 about it. And yeah, so I moved into my dorm. 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.360 But what was so what was so shattering to me? 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.040 I walked around. You get there on a Saturday or whatever, 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.400 two or three days before class starts, and everywhere I 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.280 went there were families and moms and dads and kids 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.600 and grandparents, and I was alone. And that's that's when 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.760 the reality hit me that, uh, things were really different 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.080 in my life. I mean I knew from financially they were, 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.880 and I knew emotionally my mother was a wreck um. 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.480 But I was, you know, sixteen then seventeen, and I'm busy, 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:53.800 and I'm I'm you know, just doing all the things 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.320 at sixteen year olds do that are crazy? Um, But 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.360 that day, I mean, those were like two of the 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.800 longest day of my life when when when the boomerang, 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:07.400 the aftershock started to enter into my consciousness and there 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.760 was nobody to call, nobody to talk to. Um, and 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.040 it was it was really a very lonely depressed I mean, 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.280 it should be the greatest day of your your life, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.199 you're going off to college, and instead it may have 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.560 been the most impressing of mine. Do you remember it 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.600 being physically painful watching all the dads and the moms 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.399 kind of hugging their kids goodbye, and you're there with 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.120 a you know, just I guess sitting in your dorm 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.439 room watching all this happen, right, or walking around I mean, finally, 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.120 I think I just went to the library and hung 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.600 out with you know, everyone else who didn't have a 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.480 family from all over the world. And yeah, but yeah, 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.720 but yeah, listen, you're you're in Knoxville, Tennessee, clay and 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.000 and suddenly things do start to change. But it but 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.480 it was that was the reality that was the reality 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.720 check though that Uh and again, you're right, what you 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.679 said is maybe the most accurate finances. You couldn't have 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.080 a conversation without finances because uh, you know, my dad 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.119 left a little bit of money, but not much. My 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:05.760 mother went back to work, she became she was a 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.600 clerical receptionist at I R. S. She had worked there 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.880 during the war. So, um, you know I didn't. Yeah. 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.000 I think not having a car was probably the most 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.800 startling difference between me and almost everyone else, because you 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:23.240 didn't need one that badly at Knoxville. But you also, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:25.479 I mean all of a sudden, people Yeah, I mean 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.600 you knew people were looking at this guy and going, 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:32.399 he's wearing like old clothes that are out of style. 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.919 I didn't have the the eyot on my polo shirt. 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.400 I didn't have the button downs and the khaki's, uh 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.640 the deck shoes. Um, and and I didn't have a car. 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:48.200 So you feel a little bit out of sorts in Knoxville. Um, 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.520 how did you do start? First of all, how did 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:52.960 you pay? How did you pay for school? At at 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:58.520 UT Well, I was able to go on mostly scholarship money. Um, 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.560 there was and uh, you know, people can knock the government, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:07.119 but it helped. I mean there was a little bit academic, 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.040 a little bit um you know, financial aid. There was, 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:12.199 there were there we was there was it was a 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.840 combination of things and and uh, you know we had 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.000 we had a little bit of money. Uh so my mother, 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.080 you know, would maybe give me a hundred dollar bill 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.960 when I left or something, and uh but no, there 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:25.480 wasn't a lot of money though, So I mean I 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.920 got by um Uh, I think the first thing I did, 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.159 uh was gained thirty pounds because I had one of 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.720 those meal cards. Uh So I mean, you know I 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.680 had breakfast, uh that I had lunch and uh then 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.040 you know if I was you know, a lazy move 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.240 with my buddies and maybe go back for a second lunch. 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.080 And I mean, I mean it was like, I mean, 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:51.000 the expanding man was me because I never stopped eating 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.639 my first uh my first quarter at Uto. So you 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.480 said you got interested in journalism a little bit during Watergate. 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.520 You obviously we're talking about the impact of cultural affairs. 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.280 When you were growing up in Memphis, when did you 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.040 start to think maybe I'll major in that. Were you 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.040 a journalism major at the get from the get go 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.640 at Tennessee? What did you major in and how did 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.439 you move into the air to the new newspaper I 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:15.960 was my major. I think I had a double major 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.960 political science or maybe a minor in history. I did 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.960 not think about journalism. I was more thinking governmental work. 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:23.760 If you had said at the time, what were you 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.160 gonna end up being? Uh, you know, was law? Possibility? 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.800 Was teaching a possibility? Was governmental work? I mean, these 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.399 were all things that were rolling around. I mean, again 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:38.560 the time frame, this is around the time Nixon resigned. Uh, 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:42.040 I mean politics was was. I mean, I'm not sure 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:44.720 it's comparable to today, but I mean it was front 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.200 and center. No matter where you went, there was something 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:50.359 going on. So I U I was thinking along those terms, 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:56.560 and you know, probably around my third year at Tennessee, UM, 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.879 I began drifting like what in the world in my 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.640 going to do? Uh? And I saw an ad one 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.639 day in the ut Daily Beacon that's the student newspaper 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.480 for a reporter, and I said, you know what, I'll 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:11.760 just go down there. Didn't tell any of my friends 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.000 or what I was doing. And they asked one of 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:19.720 the pre requisite questions was can you type? And I 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.000 really couldn't type very well. So they sent me to 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.959 cover that. They gave me an assignment. Um, I'll try 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:26.399 to make this quick because I can tell you the 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.440 story for three hours, but it was it was fairly simple. 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.080 There was there was like a shuttle service between campus 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.520 and the airport and they had discontinued it. And Clay, 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:38.360 I will tell you, after about six hours of phone calls, 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:46.120 I had I had uncovered some major scandal payoffs, black mail, 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:49.600 um And when I went to the editor, I mean, 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:50.960 they were like, are you out of your I mean, 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:53.000 this is unbelievable. So I wrote it up. Of course 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:54.680 I wrote it in longhand because I couldn't type. And 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.200 then finally I started taking at a at a typewriter 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.200 and and they hired me as a reporter and based 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:05.280 on my my reporting skills. And then after about a 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:07.520 two or three months of that, I realized, you know what, 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.880 covering covering the student government is not going to really 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.400 be the ticket. So I gravitated towards sports. Be sure 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.080 to catch live editions about kicked the coverage with Clay 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:20.400 Travis week days at six am Eastern, three am Pacific. 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:23.000 We're talking to Paul fine Bam. You can follow him 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:25.240 on Twitter at fine Bam. This is the Winds and 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.640 Losses Podcast. I am Clay Travis. Thanks for hanging with us. 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.399 So when did you pivot then? Would you remember the 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:34.320 first article you wrote about sports for the University of 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.359 Tennessee student newspaper. Yeah, I believe that it was a 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:41.359 it was a basketball article. Uh. I think Uh, Ernie 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:45.800 Grunfeld and Bernard King had had Uh We're doing an 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:47.560 interview that day to try they were trying out for 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:50.040 the Olympic team or something. So I interviewed them and 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:52.919 I caught the bog and as you know, Clay, Uh, 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.080 it's funny. I ran interviewed Grant Williams the other day 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:58.879 and we were talking about, you know, what's the greatest 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.240 period of basketball Tennessee history, and and there's always a 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:05.000 debate this year. This year was really good. But but 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:07.960 the Bernie and Arnie show is still being talked about 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.920 forty three years later. So that that's what I had. 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:14.639 I had another year of that. Uh, football was I 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:17.280 think Bill Battle was still there, so he was in 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:21.600 his last season, so that these were the introductory moments 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:24.080 to sports. I knew something was up when one of 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:27.280 the first big stories I covered was somebody had sent 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.879 a moving van to to build Battle's house in West Knoxville. 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:33.840 And I think Bill Battle may have been the first 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:38.120 coach to ever be on the hot seat. So at 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:40.720 this point in time, are these opinion pieces? Are they 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:44.720 pretty much straight news? Uh? And they started as straight news, 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:49.600 and Uh, I gravitated to opinion pieces, and I think 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:53.120 after I think after a couple of months, I ended 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.760 up being the sports editor, which was a great job. 0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:59.359 I mean, Clay, you're you're in college. You you have 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:03.080 your own little desk. Uh. I mean it's it's it's 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.640 journalism's version of animal House where you go down there 0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:10.080 every day. You have a group of friends, you go 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:12.639 out and drink beer together. You get to go that. 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:15.560 You get to go as a student two football games 0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:17.920 for free, sitting in the press box. And you also 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:21.120 get to fly on a plane. I chartered plane two 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:23.560 road games and do the same thing in basketball. I mean, 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:27.520 I was, you know, I'd finally overcome the beginning of 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:31.919 my career at UT and had certainly uh touched on Nirvana. 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:34.720 Had you flown on an airplane before you said he 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.280 took Greyhound up to uh. Had you gone back to 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:40.000 the East Coast where your family was from at that time? Yeah, 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:42.960 I mean I've probably been by the time I went 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:46.359 to college, I've been on maybe three or four planes, 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.720 I mean not many, not many though, and never so 0:24:49.800 --> 0:24:52.200 getting on an airplane to go cover a sporting event 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:55.640 was I was like, uh, an incredible achievement, right, oh man, 0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:58.080 I mean I'm there forget one of one of the 0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:00.240 years I was up there. We we flew think the 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:03.960 first road game was intended. Tennessee didn't play a lot 0:25:04.000 --> 0:25:06.720 of road games in um so. I think we went 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:10.040 to uh Birmingham for the Alabama game. And I mean 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:13.200 you talk about an experience having my own hotel room 0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:15.840 and uh, you know, sitting in the press box at 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:19.480 Legion Field and then going wherever else we went that year. Uh, 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:22.400 it was it was. I mean I I started to think, 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.800 you know what, this is pretty cool. I ran into 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:28.240 somebody once and I asked him about being a sportswriter. 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:31.640 He said, you may not make a million dollars. This 0:25:31.680 --> 0:25:36.440 is before Rick Riley and all that, but but you'll 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:39.400 you'll live like a you'll feel like a millionaire. Uh 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:41.560 and live like a millionaire and be around me and 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:45.560 and it really was intoxicating. Uh And I was, I 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:48.400 was all in and and suddenly I had to figure out, well, 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:50.840 what am I gonna do with my career because I didn't. 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:53.679 I started taking a couple of journalism classes, but there 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:56.080 was no way I was ever going to be around 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.879 long enough to get a degree in journalism. So do 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:01.760 you remember the first time that you wrote something and 0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:05.400 it provoked a reaction either positive or negative? Somebody came 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:07.680 up to you who you didn't know, or you heard 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.639 people talking about your opinion. When you were at the 0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:13.520 University of Tennessee. Writing in that experience sometimes people do. 0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:16.360 It's kind of like the lightbulb moment of Oh, I've 0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:20.240 impacted the conversation in some way. Oh yeah, I mean 0:26:20.520 --> 0:26:23.560 I had been critical of the ten the Tennessee football 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:28.199 team my last year there was terrible. Um uh, you know, 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:33.080 Johnny Majors was his first year, and I remember being 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:35.159 at a practice on them. They they used to practice 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:38.520 on Monday night. Idiom and I'm struggling to remember the 0:26:38.520 --> 0:26:40.240 guy's name. And he was a quarterback. It was a 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:44.040 backup named Joe somebody like Joe. I can't remember Joe 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:48.640 Huff maybe was his name. Um, and he saw me 0:26:48.800 --> 0:26:53.280 and literally came, I mean he started charging toward me. 0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:57.159 And Johnny Majors was was about five ft away and 0:26:57.240 --> 0:27:00.440 kind of caught it and and through a and threw 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:04.000 a block on this guy to to stop him from 0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:07.560 literally he would have killed me. I mean, there's no question. Uh. 0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:11.359 And he later threatened to kill me. Uh and he 0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:14.399 said if you ever and I really uh, I thought 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:17.560 I was gonna die. But so you know what it 0:27:17.840 --> 0:27:21.600 really uh it had the reverse effect, did emboldened me. 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:25.960 Um and I but but there were plenty of There 0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:28.840 were plenty of moments when I walked around that campus 0:27:28.840 --> 0:27:31.240 and then probably some of the more controversial stuff I 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:34.680 did involved basketball. Um. It was also the year after 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:40.879 Bernie and Ernie and uh I Ray Meares was the coach. 0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:43.920 But but he had uh, he had he had gone 0:27:43.920 --> 0:27:47.880 on leave. He had had some psychological problems and they 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:52.040 had an interim coach. And I wrote the Tennessee lost 0:27:52.040 --> 0:27:55.399 a Georgia on a Saturday at home when Georgia at 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:58.120 the time was the worst team in the league. By 0:27:58.119 --> 0:27:59.440 the way, not much as really yeah, and I was 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:04.840 gonna say uh and uh, and I wrote, I wrote 0:28:04.880 --> 0:28:10.960 a column in the form of an obituary. It was 0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:13.720 like just like you know, it said like balls nineteen 0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:19.959 o nine and it was we put black borders around it. 0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:24.520 The Tennessee balls Uh died Saturday night. It was seventy 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:26.800 eight years old. Everything right out of an O bit 0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:29.879 and my last line I'll never forget, I said, you know, 0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:33.160 and and and the and the school has requested uh 0:28:33.320 --> 0:28:36.679 and in Louis Flowers all contributions to go to the 0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:42.480 Lewton's cough Drop Company for future research on choking. And 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:48.600 I uh got a call that afternoon the basketball coach 0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:51.800 wanted to see me, and I went over there and 0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:55.240 he slammed the door and he grabbed me by the 0:28:55.320 --> 0:28:57.720 collar and threw me up against the wall and started 0:28:57.760 --> 0:28:59.920 just he went crazy. I mean, these are the kind 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.240 of things Clay that today, I mean, you you're your 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:05.400 your site would be on fire for a week, for 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:10.800 two weeks on um. But it was just, you know, 0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:14.080 so it was just it was it was not that 0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:17.040 unusual for me to have a running like that. And 0:29:17.360 --> 0:29:21.320 the school they decided to ban me from future travel 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:24.800 as the sports editor of the school paper, which probably 0:29:24.800 --> 0:29:26.840 hadn't happened before, right, I mean that had to be 0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:29.880 kind of uh So did you take a perverse form 0:29:29.920 --> 0:29:36.080 of pride in that? Well? Fortunately, Uh, an enterprising reporter 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.240 to Marvin West, who was a legendary reporter to the 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:42.520 Knoxville News Sentinel. Uh, he picked up on it and 0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:44.800 did a big story on it, and it created a 0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:49.560 lot of national news. So the school rescinded the ban. Um. 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:53.920 But I mean I knew then, Hey, this is what 0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:58.520 I want to do. I mean, I'll never forget Woody Page. Uh. 0:29:58.760 --> 0:30:04.360 The legendary columnists and now TV pundit told uh. I 0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:07.120 was told by I think it was Bud Ford, who 0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:10.200 was a sports information was that sports information director at 0:30:10.200 --> 0:30:12.400 Tennessee for like two generations. I mean he was there 0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:16.440 forty or fifty years. He told me that he said 0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:18.719 what we always thought what he Page was the worst 0:30:19.080 --> 0:30:21.040 person we've ever dealt with, he said, But you have 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:24.280 put him to shame. And the relationship between the the 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:26.600 school paper, in the in the s I d. S Office, 0:30:26.640 --> 0:30:31.080 I think had been set back fifteen years. Um. But so, 0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:34.880 needless to say, by the time I graduated, the the 0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:38.960 athletic department was not throwing me going going uh a 0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:43.600 congratulatory graduation dinner. I mean there were some But well, 0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.760 what it did, though, Clay, was it toughened me up. 0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:49.640 It taught me a lot. And you talked about a 0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:54.160 laboratory education in dealing with conflict. I had it. And 0:30:54.320 --> 0:30:56.760 you know, I learned how to show up at a 0:30:56.880 --> 0:30:59.800 place when you could certainly write the book on this 0:30:59.840 --> 0:31:02.360 times over, but when no one would talk to you, 0:31:02.480 --> 0:31:05.480 when you were looked down on, and it it gave 0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:09.680 me a pretty good, uh primer on on what was 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:13.080 to come. You know what. It's a great lesson because, um, 0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:16.080 I wrote Dixie Land Delight without access to any press boxes. 0:31:16.120 --> 0:31:17.840 And Bud bud Ford is a good guy. I mean, 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:20.440 he's got a lot of boss positive traits. But I 0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:22.880 remember I wrote a column making fun you'll appreciate this 0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:27.200 probably as well. Mississippi State, I think it was Alabama. 0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:32.320 Alabama's season tickets they misspelled Mississippi on them. Right. Remember 0:31:32.360 --> 0:31:34.320 this was probably like a decade. I've been twelve or 0:31:34.320 --> 0:31:36.680 thirteen years ago. I don't remember the exact year, but 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:40.600 they misspelled Mississippi on the on the tickets, and I 0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:44.360 wrote a column making fun of it. And uh, and 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:46.400 I you know, because I mean, let's be honest, I mean, 0:31:46.400 --> 0:31:49.200 the state of Alabama misspelling Mississippi on their season tickets 0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:51.920 and nobody noticing in the whole athletic department everything else. 0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:53.520 I mean, one, it's a big swing and a miss, 0:31:53.560 --> 0:31:55.560 but it's also funny, right, Like it's it was a 0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:58.400 humor column. It wasn't like I was, you know, writing 0:31:58.400 --> 0:32:01.600 a really serious piece. And uh, Bud emailed me and 0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:03.479 he said, if you want to make a living in sports, 0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:06.200 you can't make fun of people like this. Uh and 0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:08.040 uh and he was like, and it makes you know, 0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:11.040 everybody question whether we should have any relationship with you 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:13.200 at all. And you know, I mean, the truth the 0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:15.000 matter was. I mean, I've had a lot of those 0:32:15.080 --> 0:32:17.320 kind of comments that have been made to me over 0:32:17.400 --> 0:32:19.880 the years. But I think the reason why people listen, 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:22.800 or the reason why they read, is because you really 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:24.560 try not to pull punches. And I'm gonna get to 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:26.800 that in a little bit. You certainly have had your 0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:30.000 fair share of incidents over the years too. But I 0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:32.440 want to go, so you graduate from Tennessee. You've set 0:32:32.440 --> 0:32:36.480 back the relationship between the student newspaper and the athletics 0:32:36.520 --> 0:32:39.400 program by fifteen years. How do you go about getting 0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:41.200 your first job and how do you decide what you're 0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:43.800 going to do? Well, Listen, I can tell you I 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:46.040 didn't have a lot of offers. Um I ended up 0:32:46.120 --> 0:32:49.440 with UH. Some people tried to help me. There was 0:32:49.880 --> 0:32:53.920 an old sports writer in Nashville that I've got to know, 0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:57.200 a guy named Edgar Allen. He was at the Nashville Banner, 0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:00.680 and he introduced me to a few people. UH. And 0:33:00.800 --> 0:33:03.840 another guy named Tom Siler, who was legendary and Knoxville, 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:06.200 tried to help me a little bit, even though I 0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:08.160 mean there were people that liked what I was I 0:33:08.200 --> 0:33:14.000 was doing, even though it was not necessarily uh acceptable. 0:33:14.520 --> 0:33:20.400 So I ended up getting uh an offer from the Bristol, Tennessee, 0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:26.280 Virginia whatever it is, Harold Courier and the Shreveport Times 0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:31.120 and or Journal whatever the name of the newspaper was 0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:34.200 at the time. So I had two offers. Um I 0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:37.000 really did I was. I debated it. I was. I was. 0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:41.320 I was very seriously involved with a young lady from Kingsport, 0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:43.920 Tennessee at the time. And while that seemed like the 0:33:44.040 --> 0:33:47.880 logical decision, Clay, I don't know what prompted me not 0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:51.960 to take it. UM. I knew by take by going 0:33:52.080 --> 0:33:56.560 west to Shreveport, I was probably going to but but 0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:59.720 I think it was just time. I couldn't see going 0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:03.880 through the college experience, um, and then living in East 0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:08.920 Tennessee and very likely, I mean almost positively marrying someone 0:34:08.960 --> 0:34:12.600 from East Tennessee. UM. So I took the job in Shreport, 0:34:12.800 --> 0:34:17.200 didn't know us al and uh I saw Knoxville, Tennessee 0:34:17.200 --> 0:34:19.760 in my rearview mirror. Do you remember what they paid 0:34:19.760 --> 0:34:23.160 you to start in Shreport? Yes? I do. They paid 0:34:23.200 --> 0:34:27.400 me one and thirty five dollars a week, one thirty 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:29.480 five a week. And so you get down to Streeport. 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:33.600 If you bought a car by this point, uh, for 0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:41.759 for graduation, wonderful late mom bought me a powder blue 0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:49.239 Ford Maverick and and I I listened. I was emotionally 0:34:50.560 --> 0:34:52.400 thrilled that she had done it. But as soon as 0:34:52.400 --> 0:34:54.200 I got in the car, I'm like going, oh my goodness, 0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:57.200 this car may not get me to Sport. How many 0:34:57.280 --> 0:35:00.200 years old? How many years old was the college? It was? Was? 0:35:00.320 --> 0:35:03.479 I don't it was definitely it was used. And knowing 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:05.839 my mother, I let her rest in peace. I mean 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:09.759 she got a bargain. Um, and it's it's it's bit 0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:14.200 fire out of the back. Somebody wants not jumping. Someone 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:17.160 once ran into me in Birmingham when I had the car. 0:35:17.960 --> 0:35:19.960 I didn't get a scratch, and I think they totaled 0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:23.719 the car. I mean it was a literal take. Oh 0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:26.000 it was. But you know what, I didn't care. I 0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:32.160 got to I got to Shreveport, uh and uh graduated college. 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:34.440 I was. I mean it was I was just glad 0:35:34.480 --> 0:35:36.600 to get out of there. Um, I really was. It 0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:39.400 was time to start something new. So what do you 0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:43.719 cover in everything? Uh? That was the great part about 0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:46.120 the job. It was one of these places that you 0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:49.600 go and you do everything. It was. It was an 0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:52.640 afternoon paper when I started, and you get there at 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:54.719 four in the morning. You know, you do the deskwork, 0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:59.160 you do whatever there is to do. I covered uh 0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:02.000 in my am I pretty much my first and only 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:06.320 year there, I covered. I started covering some Cowboys games 0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:09.080 and exhibition games. I covered. Uh. They sent me to 0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:13.080 New Orleans for the uh Muhammad Ali's last championship win, 0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:17.600 which was unbelievable. Uh. While you're there grabbing grab an 0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:19.520 l A shoe game, grab a Saints game. I mean 0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:22.160 it was it was like right out of some old 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.960 newspaper movie. So, I mean, I I primarily covered l 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:27.960 A shoe but I but I covered some pro football 0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:31.600 as well, and uh yeah, I had a blast. I 0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:33.640 mean I didn't know what I was doing, but I 0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:36.160 was learning on the job and it was a great 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:38.800 experience for me. So how many articles are you writing? 0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:41.160 How many articles a week would you be doing at that? 0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:45.279 I mean, I'm literally churning stuff out. I mean there 0:36:45.360 --> 0:36:47.080 was this. I mean, by the I didn't know anyone. 0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:49.960 Uh this will become as a big surprise. But not 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:53.640 long after my move there the the girl in in 0:36:53.760 --> 0:36:58.920 Kingsport dumped me. Um, she dumped me for like the 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:02.800 the the guy who the adviser to the the annual. 0:37:02.960 --> 0:37:06.279 I hope she's happy. So she called you. She called 0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:09.640 you on the phone. Let me tell you this story. 0:37:09.680 --> 0:37:13.160 This is one of my favorite stories that I never tell. Um. 0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:16.360 She came to see me once. Um, maybe maybe twice, 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:18.800 I can't remember, but I mean the first time was great. 0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:21.759 She spent a week or two and uh but I 0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:23.279 think she took a look. She took a look at 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:26.080 this apartment of mine and my lifestyle, and so there's 0:37:26.080 --> 0:37:28.839 no way. Uh so she came back again. I could 0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:33.759 tell things. We're you just kind of knew. So I 0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:35.880 get I get a letter. I mean this. This is 0:37:35.920 --> 0:37:38.120 just think about this. You get a letter, I mean 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:39.960 you hear about the Dear John letter. I got a 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:43.640 letter from her saying, you know, she really hated to 0:37:43.680 --> 0:37:46.920 write this, you know, put it in writing. Um, but 0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:54.080 she was moving on. She had teun someone new and 0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:56.200 that we were done. Well you're laughing now, but I 0:37:56.200 --> 0:37:57.799 bet when you got it you were like, oh, my 0:37:57.840 --> 0:38:01.360 life is over because I remember it. I remember to 0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:04.280 this day. It was in October morning, during football season. 0:38:05.280 --> 0:38:07.560 I'm still making a hundred and may I may be 0:38:07.680 --> 0:38:11.759 up to one forty a week now, I'm not sure. Um. 0:38:11.800 --> 0:38:15.960 I was distraught. Uh, we put the newspaper out. She 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:18.439 sent it to the newspaper for whatever reason. I don't 0:38:18.440 --> 0:38:20.839 know why. I mean just I mean, let's let's make 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:26.520 this as informal as possible. And UM I went I 0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:29.480 went home to call her because I was so I mean, 0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:32.720 I didn't I mean yeah, I wasn't smart enough to 0:38:32.840 --> 0:38:35.400 see this one coming, even though I did so I 0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:40.359 got I got home to my duplex apartment and by 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:43.359 the way, I kid you not, I uh, the upstairs was. 0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:46.520 This was right as the fall of the Ayatola had 0:38:46.560 --> 0:38:50.320 fallen in Iran, and my My next door neighbor was 0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:57.000 an Iranian exchange student and he uh. So I got home. 0:38:57.360 --> 0:39:00.520 I Uh. The first thing I did was get a 0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:03.200 glass of water from the from the from the sink. 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:12.200 This was before model water. My water spiga didn't work. Um. 0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:17.040 I grabbed the phone to call my girlfriend in East 0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:20.799 Tennessee and my phone was didn't work. It had been disconnected. 0:39:20.880 --> 0:39:24.520 My water had been disconnected, and you know, and finally 0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:28.239 I turned on the TV. Uh, and it had been 0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:32.520 my power had been turned off. You had power, the 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:36.959 water or the phone bill. Everything in my life ended 0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:43.480 that day. It was all shut off. And I finally, Uh, 0:39:43.600 --> 0:39:46.000 I went back to work and called my mother and 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:50.120 told her I needed some money pretty desperately. Um. And 0:39:50.160 --> 0:39:52.640 so I got everything turned back on fairly quickly. UM. 0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:57.040 But that was it. The lady uh at the time 0:39:57.160 --> 0:39:59.760 she married the guy, and I sent her note wishing 0:39:59.760 --> 0:40:03.120 her and I not seen her or heard from her since. UM. 0:40:03.160 --> 0:40:05.719 But yeah, it was It was quite a It was 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:08.600 quite a start to my my professional life in Shreveport. 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:11.320 That was a really Uh. It's kind of hard to 0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:15.239 hit more rock bottom than that. So you're in Streport, 0:40:15.280 --> 0:40:18.320 You're there for a year, Uh, you've let your your power, 0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:23.080 your your electricity, your phone, your water, everything's dying. You're 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:25.600 making a hundred and thirty five or forty dollars a week. 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:27.920 What happens? How do you get Because for people out 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:30.080 there who may not be familiar, the idea was from 0:40:30.080 --> 0:40:33.799 a writing perspective. You want to continue to climb sort 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:36.200 of the newspaper food chain. Right, you're a young guy, 0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:37.759 You're on the up and up, like you don't have 0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:40.719 any real connection to Shreveport. How do you move from 0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:44.439 Shreeport to the next level, so to speak of your career? Well, 0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:47.400 the great thing is, uh, there were so many opportunities, 0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:50.640 and I broke a couple of big, big investigative stories. 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:54.279 I I ran into Howard co cell Clay at a 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:56.680 at a Monday night game in Dallas and ended up 0:40:56.719 --> 0:40:59.719 doing uh this was pre Quay Travis, but you were 0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:01.920 have I hung around him for about a half hour 0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:05.399 forty minutes and then did a did an opus off 0:41:05.480 --> 0:41:08.319 based on that. Uh that won me some award, So 0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:10.799 you know, it's it's a classic case. I started getting 0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:14.279 noticed and I started looking for a job because I 0:41:14.360 --> 0:41:16.200 knew that I could not spend too much more time 0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:21.640 in Shreveport, and I finally UH had some A lot 0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:25.840 of my friends from college had had gravitated Birmingham and 0:41:26.239 --> 0:41:29.879 there was an opening. And finally, after about a year, 0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:33.240 I got I got a job in Birmingham, which UH 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:35.840 was pretty I'm telling you what it was pretty. I 0:41:35.840 --> 0:41:38.440 felt like I was back home when I when I 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:43.359 pulled the Ford Maverick into Birmingham, Alabama. So you get 0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:45.720 to Birmingham, and at that point in time, you're twenty 0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:48.560 three four years old, I'm assuming and your thought is 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:50.919 I'm only going to be in Birmingham for how long? 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:52.719 If I had told you're gonna be in a Birmingham 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:54.919 for three years, would you have been disappointed? Or would 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:58.000 you have already wanted to move on to another place? Clay, 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:00.959 I would have been mortified. Who have been there three years? 0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:04.239 I had a goal that if I wasn't at the 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:07.600 New York Times by thirty, my life was a complete failure. 0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:12.560 And I at this point UH started. I had met 0:42:12.600 --> 0:42:19.640 a lot of people. UH was making contacts UM and 0:42:19.719 --> 0:42:22.040 not long after I got to Birmingham. I mean, I 0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:26.120 had sent out so many resumes that I mean it 0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:29.359 had to hit eventually, and it wasn't long after I 0:42:29.400 --> 0:42:33.480 was in Birmingham. I got an offer from a tabloid 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:40.200 in Philadelphia, and uh, I thought, my my, but I'll 0:42:40.320 --> 0:42:42.759 shorten the story. I got up there, and uh, I 0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:45.000 asked the I asked the cab driver. I said, the 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:47.520 name of the newspaper was the Philadelphia Journal. I mean, 0:42:47.520 --> 0:42:50.520 back then every town had three or four newspapers, especially 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:53.320 the big cities. And he's, oh, that's a great newspaper. 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:55.120 I said, really, what do you like about that? You know, 0:42:55.160 --> 0:42:58.400 they showed the show Women's Boobs on the front stage, 0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:03.200 and like, you know, I'm going anyway. I at this. 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.319 I mean, they offered to triple my salary and I 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:08.560 turned it down. I mean, I think that was the 0:43:08.600 --> 0:43:13.200 moment when I started thinking, Uh, I began being pragmatic 0:43:13.239 --> 0:43:15.560 about my career. People thought I was insane, but I 0:43:15.640 --> 0:43:19.240 knew in the bottom of deep down the paper folded 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:21.759 in six months. So I made a good decision there. 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:23.759 But I still did not want to stay stay too 0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:27.400 long in Birmingham, and and uh I didn't waste a 0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:29.160 lot of time. I got off to a pretty fast 0:43:29.239 --> 0:43:33.400 start there and got involved about about a year and 0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:35.879 a half. About a year in on an investigative story 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:39.040 about a high school player in Huntsville that was bought 0:43:39.080 --> 0:43:44.080 by Alabama. Did I say that that was allegedly bought 0:43:44.080 --> 0:43:48.040 by Yeah, yeah, that would be unbelievable. With Alabama, it 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:53.800 became a massive story. Uh that Uh that turned around 0:43:53.880 --> 0:43:56.239 to win me every award. I mean, but I had 0:43:56.239 --> 0:43:57.759 a partner on the story. I don't want to like 0:43:57.800 --> 0:44:00.799 it was all mine. But that was more than more 0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:02.799 than anything just to keep me out of trouble. It 0:44:02.880 --> 0:44:06.279 was the more the elder statesman of the newspaper. And uh, 0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:09.040 I mean I Clay, I mean at this age, Uh, 0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:11.400 I mean, I was, I was, I was. I was 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:14.640 a hurricane walking into any any any office building, any 0:44:14.640 --> 0:44:19.600 any d a's office, any anybody's office. And uh the 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:24.000 story won all the Alabama Awards, won all the regional awards, Sigama, 0:44:24.080 --> 0:44:27.440 Sigma Delta Kai Awards, and it won all the national 0:44:27.560 --> 0:44:30.759 ap AP Sports Editor Awards. And when you win those 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:33.200 awards back in the day, you you are going to 0:44:33.280 --> 0:44:37.880 get a good job. So. Uh it not only did 0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:41.080 it create a lot of attention, it also got a 0:44:41.160 --> 0:44:46.319 sued um so and this is important. The principal at 0:44:46.320 --> 0:44:49.520 the high school. Uh, tried to bow out before we 0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:52.080 wrote the next story. He got a job in Texas 0:44:52.320 --> 0:44:54.400 and then our story came out, so they would they 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:57.680 were threw the offer, and he did what anybody would 0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:00.799 do to try to say face. He sued us, Well, 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:03.000 not a big deal because nobody really thought he had 0:45:03.040 --> 0:45:05.680 a case except I had a lawsuit against me. So 0:45:05.719 --> 0:45:07.759 I win these all. I win these AP awards. I 0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:10.160 get a call from on a Friday night from the 0:45:10.280 --> 0:45:15.600 Philadelphia Inquirer. Uh, there were the Economy is Bad and 0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:21.000 the and the sports editor guy named Jay Cercys from Tennessee. Um. 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:24.000 He calls me, says, uh, we we we saw you 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:25.799 won all these awards. We've read your stuff. We think 0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:28.000 you're great. What what's what are the odds of you 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:30.799 getting up here on a Monday and let's you know, 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:33.320 get you in here. Uh, We're about to hit a 0:45:33.400 --> 0:45:35.279 hiring freeze. I'd like to get you under the gun. 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.600 I said, you got it, Clay, Do you have any 0:45:38.719 --> 0:45:39.839 Do you have any I do what it's like at 0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:42.680 this age to pretty much. I mean he offered me 0:45:42.719 --> 0:45:44.800 the job to have an offer from the Philadelphia Inquirer. 0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:47.240 After going through what I've been through in my career. 0:45:48.120 --> 0:45:50.319 I can't I can't imagine how excited you are. I mean, 0:45:51.040 --> 0:45:53.040 you get the call on Friday and they want you 0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:55.799 there by Monday to start. Basically, it was uh, it was. 0:45:55.840 --> 0:45:57.840 I mean, I went out with my buddies. It was 0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:01.719 the greatest night of my career. And I think, you 0:46:01.760 --> 0:46:05.360 know what's about to happen, don't you. Um. On Sunday, 0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:08.440 I'm packed and ready to go, and I've got this 0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:12.839 relationship and this poor girl is all distraught because I'm 0:46:12.880 --> 0:46:16.440 about to head to Philadelphia. Get a call. It's Jay Sarcey. 0:46:16.880 --> 0:46:20.279 He said, hey, Paul, Jay, I said, yeah, yeah, he said, 0:46:20.440 --> 0:46:24.760 we've got to change the plans. Um he had discovered 0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:26.560 the lawsuit. Now, by the way, should I have told 0:46:26.640 --> 0:46:28.960 him that the lawsuit? Yeah? Maybe I should have, but 0:46:29.080 --> 0:46:31.960 I didn't, he said, And you know I tried to. 0:46:32.040 --> 0:46:34.520 You don't want to stop somebody from hiring you, right, 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:36.520 That's what you always say. It's always better to beg 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:39.440 for forgiveness. Then, so yeah, I'm not surprised you didn't say. 0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:42.759 And oh, by the way, I'm getting sued. So I hang, 0:46:42.920 --> 0:46:48.560 I hang up the phone, and my life was over 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:54.520 that It was literally over. Uh, and I don't know 0:46:55.600 --> 0:47:00.000 at that moment if I ever got another legitimate newspaper off. 0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:03.359 And because it took about an year and a half 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:07.960 to adjudicate this this lawsuit, we went to trial, we 0:47:08.000 --> 0:47:11.680 won the case. It ended up being a significant, uh 0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:14.920 a significant victory for the newspaper business. I mean we 0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:17.520 had we had the money we spent on lawyers was 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:20.600 was in calculable. We had the top label lawyer in 0:47:20.600 --> 0:47:22.719 New York, the top label lawyer. And when we won 0:47:22.800 --> 0:47:25.920 on enemy and enemy territory. But the day afterwards, my career, 0:47:25.960 --> 0:47:28.520 I mean I was damaged. Good. So I've been through 0:47:28.520 --> 0:47:31.360 a lawsuit. Uh did you get on the way to 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:35.080 stand at the at the trial? Absolutely yeah, and cross 0:47:35.120 --> 0:47:37.640 examined and everything. Oh yeah, And you know it was 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:39.400 you know, we won the case, and it was I 0:47:39.400 --> 0:47:41.319 mean it was a big deal to win back then. 0:47:41.320 --> 0:47:44.120 I mean every newspaper in the country back then was 0:47:44.120 --> 0:47:45.719 was was following it. I mean it was in all 0:47:45.760 --> 0:47:49.480 the papers. Uh. And but but I was as good 0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:52.680 as dead. And a couple of months later, the newspaper 0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:56.080 made me a columnist, figuring that they had spent enough 0:47:56.080 --> 0:47:59.080 money on my reporting. Um, but you know what, it's 0:47:59.120 --> 0:48:02.440 it's like the old uh cliche. Uh. You know, the 0:48:02.480 --> 0:48:05.399 allegations are on the front page, and when they when 0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:07.520 they clear your name, it's on the it's on the food, 0:48:07.520 --> 0:48:11.240 it's on the it's it's inside the one edge section. 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:13.400 I mean, I get realized nobody reached newspapers anymore. But 0:48:13.440 --> 0:48:15.560 this is the way it used to be said. And 0:48:16.040 --> 0:48:19.080 by the time we were cleared, uh, my career had 0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:24.719 cooled off and things were changing too. At the same 0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:28.360 time contemporating as to this Bear Bryant was was the 0:48:28.400 --> 0:48:32.120 result was retiring and and everything else was was wasn't 0:48:32.239 --> 0:48:36.520 was in was in constant motion. But yeah, my newspaper career, 0:48:36.520 --> 0:48:39.799 we've had such great hopes and dreams of being at 0:48:39.800 --> 0:48:43.520 the Times or who knows where else. Was over. I 0:48:43.560 --> 0:48:46.239 want to go back to a couple of things here. One, 0:48:46.320 --> 0:48:49.880 when you write a story about Alabama allegedly paying a 0:48:49.920 --> 0:48:52.719 player and it goes out in the newspaper, you have 0:48:52.880 --> 0:48:55.680 to get a lot of negative blowback because those stories 0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:58.000 still provoke a ton and I think there are a 0:48:58.040 --> 0:49:00.800 lot of listeners out there that probably would and even understand, 0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:03.160 particularly if they're not in the South and they're listening 0:49:03.200 --> 0:49:06.520 to this right now. How persona non grata you are 0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:11.120 to write a story like that in the local newspaper. Uh, 0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:14.880 pretty bad. I mean it was dangerous and uh you 0:49:14.920 --> 0:49:17.960 know we I mean as as the story was coming 0:49:18.000 --> 0:49:22.600 off the press, there were a bunch of Alabama attorneys, 0:49:22.840 --> 0:49:26.319 uh literally outside by the by the loading dock, ready 0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:28.239 for the you know, get the newspaper. Again, this is 0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:31.240 in the eighties. There's no internet. I mean you literally 0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:34.799 had to read the newspaper. And it was it was 0:49:35.360 --> 0:49:37.719 by the way. Uh, Paul Bryant was still alive and 0:49:37.840 --> 0:49:42.120 was the athletic director at Alabama, and so it was. 0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:47.120 It was a very The player involved went to Alabama. 0:49:47.160 --> 0:49:49.440 He suited us too, but we were told that Brian 0:49:49.520 --> 0:49:51.520 told him to drop the lawsuit because he didn't want 0:49:51.719 --> 0:49:56.279 the university to post uh and and it but what 0:49:56.400 --> 0:49:58.400 it did the I mean at the time, I started 0:49:58.400 --> 0:50:00.600 looking at other things as well. Uh, I mean know 0:50:00.680 --> 0:50:04.120 it was it was a fairly difficult time for me. Um, 0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:06.640 I could go to a I could go to an 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:11.279 Alabama and back then they used to the media would 0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:13.960 go to the dorm at Alabama and Auburn and other 0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:16.800 schools Clay and you'd have lunch. I would. I would 0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:21.399 walk in there and not forget the administration. There wasn't 0:50:21.440 --> 0:50:25.560 another sportswriter that would speak to me. Uh. It's not 0:50:25.680 --> 0:50:28.400 like the rest of the media back back the newspaper 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:30.759 up on this. I mean I was. I was as 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.279 much of an outcast in the media as I was 0:50:33.320 --> 0:50:36.000 in the public. Well. I think that's what people a 0:50:36.000 --> 0:50:39.720 lot of don't understand is there is a great deal 0:50:39.920 --> 0:50:44.239 of power in these local universities, right and uh, and 0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:48.279 if you stand up to them at all, they'll ostracize you. 0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:52.680 And it's not just being ostracized by the university. It's 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:55.040 that other media members will feel like, oh, I don't 0:50:55.080 --> 0:50:57.120 even really want to be in that club, right, Like 0:50:57.160 --> 0:50:58.680 I don't want to be in the Fine Bomb club 0:50:58.760 --> 0:50:59.800 right now, or I don't want to be in the 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:02.560 Travis club or whatever it is. If you have been 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:05.840 particularly critical in a negative way, it's like the university 0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:08.280 is a kingdom and you have just spurned the kingdom, 0:51:08.400 --> 0:51:13.959 right Yeah, And so, I mean, I will tell you though, 0:51:14.000 --> 0:51:17.759 it was such a such a great learning experience though, 0:51:17.760 --> 0:51:21.279 because I mean you you you begin to walk in 0:51:21.400 --> 0:51:23.680 rooms like a secret service man. You're you're looking at 0:51:23.719 --> 0:51:27.040 every corner you're you're watching. You learn a lot of 0:51:27.120 --> 0:51:33.160 interpersonal communications, how to deal with various people. And it 0:51:33.320 --> 0:51:37.000 was it was. It was a great experience because I 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:40.160 also learned how fickle that the media can be. Clay. 0:51:40.200 --> 0:51:42.719 This sounds predictable today after all the things you've said 0:51:42.760 --> 0:51:47.960 about the media, uh in your platforms, But uh, they are. 0:51:48.120 --> 0:51:51.600 They were a pack in a call back then and 0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:55.680 in many ways they still are. But uh, it was 0:51:55.800 --> 0:51:57.960 it was alone in the existence. But I got a 0:51:57.960 --> 0:52:02.560 lot tougher and it helped prepare me for really anything 0:52:02.600 --> 0:52:06.000 that that was to come. What was it like covering 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:11.160 Bear Bryant. It was fascinating because even at the end 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:15.560 of his career, he was he was just such a big, 0:52:15.760 --> 0:52:18.520 larger than life figure. We hadn't think at the at 0:52:18.520 --> 0:52:22.920 the newspaper. Uh Bryant read the morning newspaper. It was 0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:26.439 his paper in Tuscaloosa, so he cared what was said 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:29.480 in there. And we had every Monday during the football season, 0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:32.520 we had a Q and A with him. So I 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:37.160 would call Bear Bryant every Monday or whatever designated time, 0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:39.120 and you know, talk to him for ten minutes and 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:40.840 and do you have any idea what's that like to 0:52:40.840 --> 0:52:42.520 go out to go out to lunch with your buddies. 0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:45.560 You're sitting there, uh and you just say, oh, yeah, 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:47.360 I talked to coach Bryant today. I mean, all of 0:52:47.400 --> 0:52:51.040 a sudden, it was the whole restaurant would stand up. 0:52:51.320 --> 0:52:54.000 I didn't know him very well. I mean he clearly 0:52:54.080 --> 0:52:56.200 knew me by this point because of some of the 0:52:56.239 --> 0:53:00.520 investigative work. Um, but he was cordial, he was he 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:03.439 was friendly. I mean he was kind of hard to hear, 0:53:04.120 --> 0:53:08.760 uh to understand his words at times. But but covering 0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:12.920 him for two years was was was a remarkable experience, 0:53:13.320 --> 0:53:16.800 especially at the end. Were you a part of the 0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:20.080 skywriters as well? Um, you know the guys who would 0:53:20.080 --> 0:53:22.960 get on airplanes and fly around and go instead of 0:53:23.000 --> 0:53:25.960 like the SEC media days which they have now. In July, 0:53:26.520 --> 0:53:28.279 I just had it in Atlanta, going to have it 0:53:28.320 --> 0:53:31.040 in Birmingham, you know where all the coaches come by 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:33.960 and talk about their their new teams. I understand you 0:53:33.960 --> 0:53:36.360 guys used to hop on planes and go around to 0:53:36.400 --> 0:53:39.239 all the different campuses and file articles from there. Did 0:53:39.239 --> 0:53:42.040 you ever partake in that? No, A friend of mine 0:53:42.600 --> 0:53:44.799 is working on a documentary on that. I would love 0:53:44.880 --> 0:53:48.600 to see that. The stories that I've heard are phenomenal. Yeah, 0:53:48.640 --> 0:53:52.839 I came my boss was on that was on the skywriters. 0:53:53.560 --> 0:53:56.440 Uh so, Uh, I knew about it. And and and 0:53:56.760 --> 0:53:59.399 even even though this is a podcast where there's there 0:53:59.440 --> 0:54:01.920 there there are, there's still no sense that there's no censering. 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:04.680 I wouldn't begin to talk publicly about the stories I've 0:54:04.719 --> 0:54:11.400 heard called believable. Yeah, no, there Uh, there's still living 0:54:11.440 --> 0:54:14.200 relatives out there, and I just don't think it's fair 0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:18.799 to anyone to uh. And it involves way too many people. Oh, 0:54:18.840 --> 0:54:20.879 I mean coaches like the coach would just walk out 0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:23.640 with a whiskey bottle and say, all right, what questions 0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:26.359 you got, let's get drunk, right. I mean basically, it 0:54:27.640 --> 0:54:29.960 was a crazy party. It would make a great it 0:54:29.960 --> 0:54:33.239 would make a great thirty thirty. I and I, through 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:35.480 my friend, I've tried to get ESPN. I'm interested in it. 0:54:35.560 --> 0:54:38.000 It's so far I'm not even sure they want they 0:54:38.000 --> 0:54:40.080 want to touch this one. Oh. I would love to 0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:41.680 see that, just based on the stories that I've heard 0:54:41.719 --> 0:54:43.520 from some of the older guys who have covered over 0:54:43.520 --> 0:54:45.480 the years. And I was wondering if you were part 0:54:45.520 --> 0:54:48.239 of that. Now you mentioned the Bear Bryant the day 0:54:48.280 --> 0:54:50.840 that he died. For people who are a lot younger 0:54:50.880 --> 0:54:52.839 that will be listening to this podcast and have heard 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.839 a lot of Nick Saban and Bear Bryant comparisons, what 0:54:56.080 --> 0:54:58.319 was the state of Alabama like the day Bear Bear 0:54:58.440 --> 0:55:01.799 Bryant died. Well, as I answered this question, I want 0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:06.040 to remind you that, Uh, I was in Memphis the 0:55:06.120 --> 0:55:09.200 day Dr King was assassinated. As a young person, I 0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:13.440 was also in downtown Memphis today Elvis Presley died. So 0:55:13.920 --> 0:55:16.960 I want to use that as a preamble to this 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:23.960 It's it's it was on the same level. Um. I. 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:28.440 I was a Legion Field interviewing a group of Alabama 0:55:28.480 --> 0:55:31.760 players who had just played at Alabama. They were trying 0:55:31.760 --> 0:55:34.120 out for a USFL team. This is the league that 0:55:34.320 --> 0:55:37.399 Donald Trump was part of. Um. We were sitting there 0:55:37.880 --> 0:55:45.239 inside Legion Field and on this great January day, they 0:55:45.920 --> 0:55:50.280 and somebody came running out and said that that something happened, 0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:55.759 something happened with coach Bryant. Uh, think about this. I 0:55:55.960 --> 0:55:58.319 left the interview. I didn't say hey, guys, you know, 0:55:58.960 --> 0:56:05.680 I ran outside the stadium to a phone booth. Let 0:56:05.719 --> 0:56:09.080 me think about it. A phone booth, dialed the number 0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:12.239 of the newspaper. I said, what's the deal. He said, 0:56:13.040 --> 0:56:16.520 we think, uh, we think he's dead. Get back here immediately. 0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:21.760 I drove back about three three miles and began writing 0:56:21.760 --> 0:56:23.960 the story. Uh, and I mean it was it was 0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:27.600 that shocking, And yeah, that was shocking enough. I went 0:56:27.640 --> 0:56:30.000 to Tuscaloosen that night for a couple of days and 0:56:30.000 --> 0:56:31.840 and the listen, you've seen, you've seen and heard a 0:56:31.840 --> 0:56:35.920 million stories about the funeral procession. Um the show you 0:56:35.920 --> 0:56:38.080 had different. The newspaper business was. My job was to 0:56:38.160 --> 0:56:43.719 cover the service in Tuscaloosa at the church and the 0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:49.280 burial in at Elmwood Cemetery in in in Birmingham. Not easily, 0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:52.040 not not easy to do, Clay, considering there is a 0:56:52.080 --> 0:56:54.960 procession and I was not part of the procession. So 0:56:55.000 --> 0:56:58.200 I did what any enterprising young reporter did. I broke 0:56:58.239 --> 0:57:01.320 into the procession and rode back with police escort to 0:57:01.480 --> 0:57:04.680 Birmingham and saw everything you've seen now on all the 0:57:04.719 --> 0:57:09.600 documentaries and literally spoke to myself and an old cassette 0:57:10.120 --> 0:57:14.279 tape recorder describing the scene so I would have a 0:57:14.400 --> 0:57:16.960 history of it for the article that I would write 0:57:17.000 --> 0:57:21.280 later that that afternoon or evening describing his his his 0:57:21.280 --> 0:57:24.480 his burial. It was unlike anything I've ever seen. I mean, 0:57:24.520 --> 0:57:29.480 I I found myself as a cynical young reporter, uh 0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:34.000 literally washing away tears rolling down my very chubby cheeks 0:57:34.040 --> 0:57:37.040 at the time, because you know, the scenes were were 0:57:37.080 --> 0:57:40.320 epic of you know, little kids holding signs will miss 0:57:40.360 --> 0:57:44.080 you Bear. I mean, I remember writing this line in 0:57:44.120 --> 0:57:46.479 the article, and because it was true, I said, even 0:57:46.520 --> 0:57:53.600 the dogs looked sad. Deadline writing is an incredibly difficult 0:57:53.600 --> 0:57:56.320 thing to do. It's made even more so when it's 0:57:56.360 --> 0:57:59.560 a legitimately serious story. Right we're not talking about who 0:57:59.560 --> 0:58:02.640 wanted to Fall game? Is that some of the most 0:58:02.880 --> 0:58:06.120 proud of your writing you are. If somebody comes to 0:58:06.160 --> 0:58:08.760 you now and says, show me, Paul findbaumb the writer, 0:58:09.160 --> 0:58:11.600 what clips would you give them? Would it be included 0:58:11.640 --> 0:58:14.840 among them? Yeah? They were certainly this this day would 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:16.760 be one of them. And and you know then the 0:58:16.880 --> 0:58:20.880 nighties of his last game in Memphis, Uh was a 0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:24.680 uh end of the game. It was like a four 0:58:24.680 --> 0:58:28.280 and a half hour game. Um. And yeah, I mean 0:58:28.600 --> 0:58:30.520 I always thought that was the toughest thing I've ever 0:58:30.520 --> 0:58:33.640 done in my career. Was to right on a a 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:38.000 late deadline, and because I I didn't realize how difficult 0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:39.720 it would be if I wrote in today's Erara with 0:58:39.920 --> 0:58:43.040 having to tweet throughout the entire game as well. But 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:47.919 it was, it was. It's a rush that I think 0:58:48.000 --> 0:58:53.520 is similar to a rock star on stage or an actor. 0:58:54.480 --> 0:58:57.120 I mean, it's it's not a very sexy profession, but 0:58:57.720 --> 0:59:00.360 you did get quite an adrenaline rush when you've finally 0:59:00.400 --> 0:59:04.400 hit the send button and it was over. And nowadays 0:59:04.440 --> 0:59:07.320 it's never over, as you well know, But then it was, 0:59:07.440 --> 0:59:09.160 I mean, there wasn't much you could do once you 0:59:09.760 --> 0:59:14.320 I mean, once you sent the article in uh, you 0:59:14.320 --> 0:59:16.040 could take you can take a breathing. How did you 0:59:16.280 --> 0:59:18.000 and I don't know the answer to this, how did 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:21.680 you even send articles in UM? Well, when I was 0:59:21.680 --> 0:59:25.960 in college, early on college, it was you literally called 0:59:26.000 --> 0:59:29.440 them in UM and read the whole read the whole story, 0:59:29.560 --> 0:59:32.200 or yeah, yeah, you kind of you just kind of 0:59:32.200 --> 0:59:33.640 made it up as you went alonger I mean, not 0:59:33.720 --> 0:59:36.280 made it up, but you just verbalized it, which is 0:59:36.280 --> 0:59:37.840 a good way of doing it. By the way, by 0:59:37.840 --> 0:59:39.760 the time I got to Shreveport, they had these things 0:59:39.800 --> 0:59:44.120 called Texas Instrument had. It was. It was a very 0:59:44.240 --> 0:59:47.040 archaic machine that worked about half the time. Then we 0:59:47.080 --> 0:59:50.320 went to what was called a tele bubble or tell 0:59:50.360 --> 0:59:53.520 a ram, which you had a little, very small screen 0:59:54.040 --> 0:59:55.920 and you would put the phone in a coupler and 0:59:55.920 --> 0:59:57.880 it took about five minutes to send in like a 0:59:58.000 --> 1:00:02.280 facts and and then we finally got their computers. But 1:00:02.840 --> 1:00:05.840 it was it was quite an ordeal, you know, I 1:00:05.840 --> 1:00:08.680 mean I saw it all. We're talking to Paul fine Bomb. 1:00:08.720 --> 1:00:11.480 You can follow him on Twitter at fine Bomb. This 1:00:11.560 --> 1:00:14.680 is the Wins and Losses Podcast. I'm Clay Travis. Was 1:00:14.680 --> 1:00:19.320 your mom proud of your career? She was. I'll tell 1:00:19.320 --> 1:00:23.000 you one story about her. I mean she I didn't. 1:00:23.280 --> 1:00:24.920 I mean she never let on too much to me. 1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:28.760 I later found out that she showed everybody on the 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:34.440 street my articles. But in uh it was nineteen three, Uh, 1:00:34.920 --> 1:00:39.200 I won the the Herbie Kirby Award. Clay, you know, 1:00:39.280 --> 1:00:42.880 you probably don't know who Herbie Kirby was, but Herbie 1:00:42.920 --> 1:00:48.880 Kirby was a Birmingham Post gerald writer who was really 1:00:49.720 --> 1:00:52.560 kind of way down on the totem pole. And you're 1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:55.520 probably asking why am I telling the story? But like 1:00:55.560 --> 1:00:57.880 the sports editor was in the hospital. The next guy 1:00:58.120 --> 1:01:01.400 was out sick. He ended up having to cover like 1:01:01.440 --> 1:01:04.560 one of the most amazing important games in Alabama history, 1:01:04.600 --> 1:01:07.680 Alabama Notre Dame seventy three one verses two in the 1:01:07.720 --> 1:01:12.680 Sugar Bowl. And he's as he as he was sending 1:01:12.680 --> 1:01:15.200 in his heart article speaking of pressure, he had a 1:01:15.200 --> 1:01:19.680 heart attack and died, Oh my god, in the press boxing, 1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:24.600 in the press box at the at the Tulane Stadium. 1:01:25.040 --> 1:01:27.160 And so they named this award after him. And I 1:01:27.200 --> 1:01:30.000 tell you that because I was reminded of it, that 1:01:30.160 --> 1:01:32.560 there is a lot of pressure and and this this 1:01:32.600 --> 1:01:36.920 poor guy, um, he was like the bowling editor. He 1:01:37.000 --> 1:01:39.520 was not the normal guy, but he ended up having 1:01:39.560 --> 1:01:42.080 to be the guy and it's it can be dangerous. 1:01:42.240 --> 1:01:44.520 So he filed his article and died in the press 1:01:44.560 --> 1:01:46.600 box like that was literally the final thing that he 1:01:46.640 --> 1:01:48.920 ever did. I mean, I think he got it in. 1:01:49.120 --> 1:01:52.280 And I mean, and I know this, nobody was joking 1:01:52.280 --> 1:01:53.960 about it, but I knew the guy that was on 1:01:54.000 --> 1:01:56.160 the desk at the time, and I said, I said, 1:01:55.920 --> 1:01:59.000 you realize you might have killed this guy? I mean 1:01:59.040 --> 1:02:03.600 because because I mean, they needed the story. It was 1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:06.680 an epic game. I mean, just uh, I mean, Tom 1:02:06.680 --> 1:02:09.480 Clemens from Notre Dame hit a long third down in 1:02:09.520 --> 1:02:11.480 his own end zone, and it's it's a game that 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:13.520 Alabama's hands. By the way, this is a game. In 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:16.240 the nineteen seventy three Alabama was still awarded the UPI 1:02:16.360 --> 1:02:19.200 National Championship even though they lost to Notre Dame, and 1:02:19.240 --> 1:02:23.280 they still claim it, by the way, along with eight 1:02:23.320 --> 1:02:25.200 and four season, I think where they got a national 1:02:25.240 --> 1:02:27.680 title out of it. So ten years later, I'm on 1:02:27.720 --> 1:02:30.120 the phone with my mom. I had just gotten back 1:02:30.160 --> 1:02:34.000 from this Sportswriter's convention and I had won the Herbie 1:02:34.040 --> 1:02:37.880 Kirby Award Top Sports Story of the Year. And I 1:02:37.960 --> 1:02:41.160 called my mom. Remember she's from Brooklyn, and I said, 1:02:41.360 --> 1:02:43.320 I mean, I am so excited. I mean, I'm I've 1:02:43.560 --> 1:02:46.640 you know, this career, the idea that not that many years, 1:02:47.120 --> 1:02:50.000 you know, for four years after sreport, I'm winning the 1:02:50.040 --> 1:02:54.600 top award and uh, she said, well that's great. I said, well, 1:02:54.720 --> 1:02:57.240 she said, what was it for again? This is right 1:02:57.280 --> 1:02:59.760 before I had won the national awards. I said, I 1:02:59.800 --> 1:03:03.360 said sports story of the Year in Alabama, and I mean, 1:03:03.360 --> 1:03:06.680 I'm screaming at her. Uh And she said sports story 1:03:06.680 --> 1:03:08.800 of the Year in Alabama, So I didn't know people 1:03:08.800 --> 1:03:13.200 in Alabama could read. I'm like, oh my good, are 1:03:13.240 --> 1:03:16.600 you talking about being deflated? But that's my mom was 1:03:16.680 --> 1:03:20.720 Vince Lombardi, uh, Nick Saban, Bill Belichick all wrapped into one. 1:03:20.760 --> 1:03:22.760 I mean, she she knew how to keep me honest 1:03:22.800 --> 1:03:25.640 and hey, I said, okay, I'll call you. Uh this 1:03:25.680 --> 1:03:27.320 was this was the year before I take it back. 1:03:27.400 --> 1:03:29.720 I said, okay, I hung up the phone, so I'll 1:03:29.720 --> 1:03:31.400 call you next So next year I called her. I said, 1:03:31.400 --> 1:03:34.360 by the way, I won, I won first place in 1:03:34.400 --> 1:03:38.120 the country. She said, Now I'm impressed. And so, I 1:03:38.120 --> 1:03:40.640 mean she was a motivator. Um, but yeah, she was 1:03:40.680 --> 1:03:43.440 really proud. I mean she didn't Uh she saw a 1:03:43.480 --> 1:03:47.919 little bit of the radio uh career, but not much. 1:03:48.840 --> 1:03:51.080 I don't know what she would I think today, if 1:03:51.120 --> 1:03:53.920 she was still alive, she would be sitting next to 1:03:53.920 --> 1:03:58.800 me like Lebertard's father, and the show would be immensely 1:03:59.120 --> 1:04:02.640 more popular. I mean, because she she she literally could 1:04:02.680 --> 1:04:04.439 have had her own sitcom. She just came too early. 1:04:04.640 --> 1:04:07.480 Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in 1:04:07.520 --> 1:04:10.520 the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports 1:04:10.600 --> 1:04:13.680 radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app. 1:04:13.760 --> 1:04:18.480 Search f s R to listen live. We're talking to 1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:20.560 Paul fine Bomb at five Bomb on Twitter as the 1:04:20.560 --> 1:04:23.720 Wins and Losses podcast. I'm Clay Travis. Now. Uh, you 1:04:23.760 --> 1:04:26.520 mentioned radio. So you have all this success in the 1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:29.880 writing business, but you feel like you are just stuck 1:04:29.920 --> 1:04:33.360 in Birmingham. The lawsuit happens, your goal of getting to 1:04:33.400 --> 1:04:36.120 the New York Times by the age of thirty is disappearing. 1:04:36.760 --> 1:04:39.480 Uh when do you start going on the radio? Do 1:04:39.520 --> 1:04:42.720 you remember the first time you went on? Yeah? I started. 1:04:42.960 --> 1:04:45.920 Uh My first show was in the early eighties. Ey 1:04:46.000 --> 1:04:50.000 Gold uh, the legendary announcer for Alabama, he used to 1:04:50.040 --> 1:04:53.200 go He used to go Daytona every Tuesday to do 1:04:53.240 --> 1:04:55.520 a NASCAR show. So he asked me if I could 1:04:55.560 --> 1:04:58.360 fill in for him on Tuesday. I did that in 1:04:58.440 --> 1:05:01.360 the show became popular. Um, and it just so happened 1:05:01.360 --> 1:05:04.160 that was the year after Bryant. Uh So it led 1:05:04.200 --> 1:05:06.720 into the Or two years after that, it led into 1:05:06.720 --> 1:05:10.640 the Coaches Show for Ray Perkins, who was the Alabama successor. 1:05:11.240 --> 1:05:14.240 And it just so it happened that in perkins second 1:05:14.280 --> 1:05:17.200 year at Alabama, they had the first losing season in 1:05:17.240 --> 1:05:22.800 twenty five years. And uh, people wanted him out, and 1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:25.840 he got pretty sick of all the negativity leading into 1:05:25.960 --> 1:05:28.120 him on his number one Birmingham affiliate. So he got 1:05:28.120 --> 1:05:31.560 me fired. So got you fired. So let me ask 1:05:31.600 --> 1:05:34.320 you this for radio, because I get this question a lot. 1:05:34.680 --> 1:05:38.040 I got into radio, started with writing, went into radio, 1:05:38.280 --> 1:05:42.840 then went into TV. How did you find doing radio 1:05:43.720 --> 1:05:46.520 compared to writing? Because you get that question a lot, 1:05:46.600 --> 1:05:48.680 and there's not a lot of people who do all three. 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:51.240 And I'll get to television later, But how did you 1:05:51.280 --> 1:05:54.760 find radio? Did you find it easier, more challenging, difficult? What? 1:05:54.920 --> 1:05:57.840 How did you find their different disciplines and what works 1:05:57.880 --> 1:06:01.120 in one may not necessarily work in the there. I 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:03.640 struggled early on because I would come in, I would 1:06:03.640 --> 1:06:05.560 try to write things out. I remember you, I saw 1:06:05.560 --> 1:06:07.160 me one day, so what are you doing? He should 1:06:07.200 --> 1:06:09.400 just talk and and and it took a long time, 1:06:10.160 --> 1:06:12.040 but but I liked it. I like to give and 1:06:12.080 --> 1:06:17.080 take in clay, Uh, I was so confrontational back then 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:19.440 with everyone. I mean I would yell at the callers, 1:06:19.520 --> 1:06:22.840 I would yell at the guests. Um. It took me 1:06:22.920 --> 1:06:25.960 a long time to to slow down my my radio game. 1:06:26.000 --> 1:06:28.080 But I did love it though, and and and and 1:06:28.120 --> 1:06:30.800 so I lost. Yeah, I lost the job, and the 1:06:30.840 --> 1:06:35.520 next day the Auburn station hired me. You know, but 1:06:35.560 --> 1:06:38.640 the radio career took I wasn't doing a talk show 1:06:38.680 --> 1:06:39.840 for a long time. I was doing I was on 1:06:39.960 --> 1:06:44.880 with some morning guys UH doing doing FM commentary, and ultimately, 1:06:44.920 --> 1:06:49.120 in the late eighties, UH, I started doing a Saturday 1:06:49.120 --> 1:06:52.880 show UH with one of the legendary voices in town. 1:06:52.960 --> 1:06:56.520 And and that moved into a nighttime show, which still 1:06:56.560 --> 1:06:59.280 took a long time too. I was still on a 1:06:59.320 --> 1:07:02.400 fairly off off the off brand station, so it took 1:07:02.400 --> 1:07:04.280 three or four years. But I got what I What 1:07:04.360 --> 1:07:07.560 I got was a lot of experience, and I began 1:07:07.640 --> 1:07:10.000 meeting a lot of people and and but but I 1:07:10.000 --> 1:07:14.240 found myself at a crossroads in the nineties because you know, 1:07:14.240 --> 1:07:17.040 the newspaper wanted to send me to cover some event 1:07:17.440 --> 1:07:21.040 and I couldn't leave the radio show. So I I 1:07:21.040 --> 1:07:24.040 I made the decision. Uh. And by the way it looks, 1:07:24.240 --> 1:07:27.200 some people say, man, you were smart to get out it. 1:07:27.200 --> 1:07:30.160 It wasn't tough to figure out the newspaper business was 1:07:30.160 --> 1:07:34.400 was heading towards the abyss um. I I stayed with 1:07:34.440 --> 1:07:37.960 it for a while, but radio became my main concentration. 1:07:38.480 --> 1:07:41.120 So when did you start to think I might be 1:07:41.200 --> 1:07:43.960 good at radio? Was there a moment where you went 1:07:44.000 --> 1:07:46.200 back and you had a show, you finished it, you 1:07:46.240 --> 1:07:48.160 walk out of the studio and you're like, you know what, 1:07:48.240 --> 1:07:50.880 I think that was pretty good? Or do you think 1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:53.720 it was just a gradual thing where you, you know, 1:07:53.800 --> 1:07:55.760 kept getting a little bit better, a little bit better. 1:07:56.040 --> 1:07:57.600 I mean, I'm sure if you went back and listened 1:07:57.640 --> 1:07:59.480 to some of those shows you did in the early eighties, 1:07:59.480 --> 1:08:01.600 you'd be like, God, those were awful shows. Maybe you 1:08:01.680 --> 1:08:03.640 listen to him and think, my god, they're incredible. But 1:08:03.720 --> 1:08:05.640 at what point did you start thinking, hey, I got 1:08:05.680 --> 1:08:09.760 some talent here. It probably took a long time, um, 1:08:11.000 --> 1:08:14.080 because I I cannot listen to myself. I know that 1:08:14.160 --> 1:08:18.200 sounds like a lot of artists, but uh, I mean, slowly, 1:08:18.240 --> 1:08:21.599 but surely, I just got I became more comfortable with it, 1:08:22.120 --> 1:08:26.439 um and I started having fun with it, which I which, 1:08:26.439 --> 1:08:28.960 which took a while. So, I mean, I wasn't sure 1:08:29.000 --> 1:08:33.360 where I was going, but I was. I spent I 1:08:33.360 --> 1:08:36.840 spent about ten twelve years on a news talk station 1:08:36.880 --> 1:08:42.000 in Birmingham. We followed Rush Limbough every day, and I 1:08:42.320 --> 1:08:45.960 probably had more fun talking about politics than I did 1:08:46.000 --> 1:08:48.360 about sports. So it was a little bit of everything. 1:08:48.960 --> 1:08:51.439 So I began. I did get to meet a lot 1:08:51.439 --> 1:08:55.200 of people outside of the sports world. Um so, I bet. 1:08:55.320 --> 1:08:56.960 But but yeah, I mean the answer to your question 1:08:57.040 --> 1:08:59.919 is it took a long time before I felt comfortable. 1:09:00.439 --> 1:09:03.519 And since we were in a sports show per se, 1:09:04.479 --> 1:09:09.400 Uh yeah, I didn't. Uh I was. I was still 1:09:09.439 --> 1:09:11.760 somewhat lost because I mean, you know, I mean, you know, 1:09:11.840 --> 1:09:13.920 the stations back then you would talk about everything. It 1:09:13.920 --> 1:09:17.320 wouldn't just talk about sports. So you go to jocks. 1:09:17.600 --> 1:09:21.880 Is that the point for who who aren't who aren't 1:09:21.920 --> 1:09:27.479 familiar with Alabama Radio Jocks is five in Birmingham. It's got, 1:09:27.560 --> 1:09:29.679 you know, I don't know, a hundred thousand watt station. 1:09:29.760 --> 1:09:32.880 It just kind of broadcasted out everywhere. When did you 1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:35.320 go to Jocks? What was the first year there? Yeah? 1:09:35.360 --> 1:09:37.200 I I had talked to them every time my contract 1:09:37.240 --> 1:09:40.400 could come up. We had talked, and it just it 1:09:40.439 --> 1:09:43.479 was it was hard to make it work. And then finally, 1:09:44.400 --> 1:09:50.160 um I I began to realize that it was time 1:09:50.200 --> 1:09:53.599 to make a change. I was at this news talk station, 1:09:53.720 --> 1:09:58.960 as I said, and ratings were great, then they were terrible. 1:09:59.000 --> 1:10:00.799 They were all over the map. But we were competing 1:10:00.800 --> 1:10:05.280 with the sports station. So the sports station came to me. Uh, 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:09.800 Ryan Haney, Uh, someone you know well called me and 1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:13.800 said listen, we want to talk. And I had this 1:10:13.840 --> 1:10:16.599 weird cause in the contract that I could start talking 1:10:17.280 --> 1:10:19.559 ninety days out or whatever it was. So they we 1:10:19.600 --> 1:10:24.640 had lunch at just just absolutely dreadful Chinese restaurants, and 1:10:24.680 --> 1:10:27.639 they told me that they were about to make make 1:10:27.680 --> 1:10:29.920 a move to f M. Now think about this, Clay. 1:10:29.960 --> 1:10:33.800 This was nineteen excuse me, two thousand and six. Yeah, 1:10:34.000 --> 1:10:37.160 that's not that long ago. That's how long AM radio 1:10:37.280 --> 1:10:41.160 had been really really popular in in Birmingham. And you know, look, 1:10:41.280 --> 1:10:44.559 Birmingham is basically the capital of college sports in America. 1:10:44.640 --> 1:10:47.120 You go look at the ratings. People are obsessed with 1:10:47.200 --> 1:10:49.519 college sports, all right. So this is two thousand six. 1:10:50.360 --> 1:10:55.320 This was November December two thousand and six. Uh. They 1:10:55.360 --> 1:10:57.760 they were they were about to make a change. They 1:10:57.800 --> 1:11:01.000 had a legendary guy doing the afternoon show. He happened 1:11:01.040 --> 1:11:02.280 to be a friend of mine. It was it was 1:11:02.320 --> 1:11:05.880 really awkward. Um, you're always facing that situation. I said 1:11:05.920 --> 1:11:08.040 to what's gonna happen with him. They said, we're gonna 1:11:08.080 --> 1:11:13.720 put him on the the second channel. Yeah, I said 1:11:13.840 --> 1:11:15.360 this was gonna I think, by the way, that's the 1:11:15.400 --> 1:11:18.000 station that my morning show is on. I think we're 1:11:18.000 --> 1:11:20.599 on the Jock's Am in the morning. I'll kick the coverage, 1:11:20.680 --> 1:11:26.679 I think. So anyway, I uh, I still wasn't sure. 1:11:26.840 --> 1:11:30.080 I mean, all yeah, I had a team together. We 1:11:30.120 --> 1:11:31.880 had just moved in. We were we were working for 1:11:31.920 --> 1:11:35.799 Clear Channel. They had put us into just incredible studio 1:11:35.840 --> 1:11:38.920 that overlooked downtown Birmingham from a mountain. I mean, it 1:11:39.000 --> 1:11:41.960 was all the people. Uh So I kind of I 1:11:42.000 --> 1:11:43.800 was really not sure what I wanted to do. And 1:11:43.920 --> 1:11:49.960 so one day, um, this guy came in and they 1:11:49.960 --> 1:11:52.360 called him in around right right right before Christmas, and 1:11:52.360 --> 1:11:56.960 they said, we're gonna move you to the Beach Channel 1:11:57.040 --> 1:12:00.519 whatever was called. He blew up. He yelled that heiney, 1:12:01.120 --> 1:12:07.840 you know, I'll spare the language and quip and he 1:12:07.880 --> 1:12:10.360 went to the newspaper and said, I'm not I'm I'm 1:12:10.400 --> 1:12:13.599 not a j V guy. I'm a And so then 1:12:14.600 --> 1:12:16.040 I knew I had to go. I mean that at 1:12:16.040 --> 1:12:19.240 that point, uh, it was it was going to be 1:12:19.600 --> 1:12:22.120 uh so I started gravitating towards it. I still couldn't 1:12:22.120 --> 1:12:28.240 sign a deal yet. Um and Clear Channel, Uh, Clear 1:12:28.360 --> 1:12:31.479 Channel was trying to too high to sign these guys 1:12:31.520 --> 1:12:35.280 named Rick and Bubba, and I knew they weren't going 1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:38.120 there because I was friends with them too. And all 1:12:38.120 --> 1:12:40.760 of a sudden, about a week later, they lost Rick 1:12:40.800 --> 1:12:43.200 and Bubba. So suddenly they had money to try to 1:12:43.240 --> 1:12:46.680 retain me. So they came to me and so I 1:12:46.800 --> 1:12:49.840 but I I had already decided I was leaving. And 1:12:49.880 --> 1:12:53.639 by the and the the offer was terrible, uh Clay, 1:12:53.680 --> 1:12:57.920 I mean the the GM was who was a close 1:12:57.960 --> 1:13:00.559 friend of mine. Now he was longer there, but uh, 1:13:01.120 --> 1:13:04.400 it was a terrible offer. And I had I had 1:13:05.280 --> 1:13:06.840 Pat Smith with me. I don't know if you remember 1:13:06.840 --> 1:13:10.920 the past. Patt had started the network. And I said, listen, Pat, 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:13.920 that's the guy running this network. I mean they gave 1:13:13.920 --> 1:13:16.760 they gave me a blanket number. And I said, well, 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:18.960 what is They said to the guy to look at me, 1:13:19.000 --> 1:13:20.680 So listen, I don't care if you give him the 1:13:20.840 --> 1:13:24.960 entire salary. This is what we're offering you. And uh, 1:13:25.160 --> 1:13:28.000 I asked, we had like four guys, four other guys 1:13:28.040 --> 1:13:29.920 that I worked with, and I sent each one of 1:13:29.960 --> 1:13:32.400 them an email. I said, I want to keep this private. 1:13:32.400 --> 1:13:34.360 I want you all to tell me what you want 1:13:34.360 --> 1:13:38.760 to do. Go or stay. All four voted to stay 1:13:38.800 --> 1:13:43.719 at the station we were at. I decided to leave, 1:13:44.800 --> 1:13:47.720 and they were furious with me. But I knew even 1:13:47.760 --> 1:13:50.200 though I was making, by the way, not less money, 1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:53.920 significantly less money, I knew it was the right decision. Now, 1:13:54.160 --> 1:13:57.479 what I failed to tell you was it two weeks 1:13:57.520 --> 1:14:00.080 before they went to FM and one other thing, the 1:14:00.920 --> 1:14:05.280 Nick Saban arrived and I knew, I knew. I knew 1:14:05.360 --> 1:14:08.160 I had to be on sports station and Clay, I 1:14:08.160 --> 1:14:10.960 don't need to tell you that. I think within uh, 1:14:11.160 --> 1:14:15.320 within it. Within a year, the station's men demos headquadrupled. 1:14:17.160 --> 1:14:19.280 And so I want to go to this this moment 1:14:19.320 --> 1:14:22.160 here because the podcast is called Wins and Losses, and 1:14:22.280 --> 1:14:26.400 I feel like so many people chase the money, right, 1:14:26.400 --> 1:14:28.960 they make the decision wherever the most money is. I'm 1:14:29.000 --> 1:14:31.680 going to go there here. You are not a young guy, right, 1:14:31.720 --> 1:14:33.640 You've been in your career for a long time at 1:14:33.680 --> 1:14:37.640 this point, and you chose because you thought the opportunity 1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:43.599 was offered better. Jocks down in Birmingham and Nick Saban 1:14:43.760 --> 1:14:46.200 is arriving. And by the way, before we get to that, 1:14:46.760 --> 1:14:49.840 do you accept credit for rich Rod not taking the 1:14:49.880 --> 1:14:53.639 Alabama job? Because people forget that the expectation was rich 1:14:53.720 --> 1:14:55.639 Rod was going to take the job. But that your 1:14:55.720 --> 1:14:58.719 callers and what you had said on the air upset. 1:14:58.760 --> 1:15:01.240 What's the story there for how rich Rod didn't leave 1:15:01.320 --> 1:15:04.960 West Virginia As our mutual friend Lance Taylor takes some 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:08.120 of the credit. Um, what happened was I think we 1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:10.599 had more to do with it. Um. A bunch of 1:15:10.600 --> 1:15:13.400 callers car started calling in our show when it when 1:15:13.400 --> 1:15:15.400 I mean rich Rod was going to Alabama, I mean 1:15:15.439 --> 1:15:17.640 he had, he had agreed to the deal, and the 1:15:17.640 --> 1:15:20.519 Birmingham News broke the story, and and and the night 1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:23.479 before as it was being speculated, a couple of people 1:15:23.520 --> 1:15:26.000 started calling in. I think, Uh, I mean, I think 1:15:26.000 --> 1:15:27.599 at the time you couldn't stream our show. I mean, 1:15:27.600 --> 1:15:30.879 it wasn't that long ago. Uh, and started just trashing 1:15:30.960 --> 1:15:36.640 Rita Rodriguez. Yeah, I mean, with with everything imaginable, what 1:15:36.840 --> 1:15:39.479 she looks like, trailer park, you got you know, you 1:15:39.600 --> 1:15:42.840 name it. And there's no question I heard from pretty 1:15:42.880 --> 1:15:45.280 pretty reliable and I've got to know Rich and I've 1:15:45.320 --> 1:15:48.200 never asked him what I will. The word was his 1:15:48.240 --> 1:15:52.960 wife heard about it and said, we're not going there. Um. 1:15:53.000 --> 1:15:55.360 When the story broke that he had turned the job down, 1:15:56.080 --> 1:15:58.160 he broke about two two thirty in the afternoon on 1:15:58.200 --> 1:16:01.080 our show, I had a stream of callers called up 1:16:01.120 --> 1:16:05.640 and blamed me for costing him, uh costing Alabama. Rich Rodriguez, 1:16:05.920 --> 1:16:08.840 a talk show host in Mobile, literally came out and said, 1:16:09.160 --> 1:16:12.480 it is Paul Finebaum's fault. He has destroyed this program. 1:16:12.640 --> 1:16:15.160 Now that's what That's where all that came from. And 1:16:15.320 --> 1:16:17.160 at the time I was a little bit upset about it. 1:16:17.240 --> 1:16:18.920 And now I mean, I listen, I think for the 1:16:19.000 --> 1:16:24.040 university owes me a statute. So that's the story on 1:16:24.120 --> 1:16:28.080 rich Ron. So. Uh So this is kind of fascinating 1:16:28.080 --> 1:16:30.200 in and of itself. Um So you go to ninety 1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:33.120 four five jocks in Birmingham right as Nick Saban is 1:16:33.240 --> 1:16:37.160 arriving at Alabama two weeks later, Did you know Nick 1:16:37.200 --> 1:16:41.439 Saban at all? Yes, that's what's so interesting. A good 1:16:41.479 --> 1:16:44.680 friend of mine, uh had been who has met as 1:16:44.680 --> 1:16:49.120 a graduate assistant at Alabama, later became Saban's administrator of 1:16:49.160 --> 1:16:51.720 assistant at L s U and he kept telling me 1:16:51.720 --> 1:16:56.480 about Saban and there was a controversy of no consequence that, Uh, 1:16:56.520 --> 1:16:59.160 everyone in Alabama hated Saban because he got into a 1:16:59.160 --> 1:17:01.439 t to tay with Alabama coach at the time, Dennis 1:17:01.439 --> 1:17:04.639 Friend showny. My friend told me about it. I think 1:17:04.680 --> 1:17:07.000 Saban even talked to me off the air and then 1:17:07.120 --> 1:17:10.320 came on our show on the year I took up 1:17:10.520 --> 1:17:12.360 and Clay, you've done this before. You know what, you 1:17:12.360 --> 1:17:14.639 know how important it is you take up for someone 1:17:14.720 --> 1:17:18.080 when everyone else is after him. And I took up 1:17:18.080 --> 1:17:21.680 for Saban. He never forgot it. And the day that 1:17:21.760 --> 1:17:25.200 he was introduced to Alabama, he agreed to do one 1:17:26.320 --> 1:17:30.680 exclusive interview and it was with us on on My 1:17:30.920 --> 1:17:33.760 on My show that afternoon, and that that bonded us 1:17:33.840 --> 1:17:36.840 and we we became fairly close after that was Saban. 1:17:37.200 --> 1:17:40.080 Saban is one of these people. Uh. And we could 1:17:40.080 --> 1:17:43.240 do a whole another podcast on him another date where 1:17:43.600 --> 1:17:46.639 if he if he trust you, you're good. He doesn't. 1:17:46.680 --> 1:17:48.760 He doesn't really care, he doesn't want it. He doesn't 1:17:48.800 --> 1:17:51.479 trust more than a handful of people at one time. Uh. 1:17:51.479 --> 1:17:54.360 He's like Noah's ark In. In the first year that 1:17:54.400 --> 1:17:57.840 he was in Birmingham. In Tuscaloosa, he chose two newspapers, 1:17:58.040 --> 1:18:00.679 two newspaper radio guys that were going to be his friends. 1:18:00.680 --> 1:18:02.960 Who was myself and Cecil heard the rest of them 1:18:03.040 --> 1:18:06.720 he had no use for. Is it still the same way? No, 1:18:07.120 --> 1:18:10.320 because I mean, listen, Saban, Uh, you know, by by 1:18:10.400 --> 1:18:14.479 leaving there, I don't see him as much. Um and 1:18:15.120 --> 1:18:18.040 I have certainly had critical comments about him over the years, 1:18:18.080 --> 1:18:20.640 and I know he hasn't liked them. But yeah, I 1:18:20.640 --> 1:18:23.680 think I think there's mutual respect. But the fact that um, 1:18:25.080 --> 1:18:27.280 I've left town and and don't see him very much, 1:18:27.280 --> 1:18:29.519 I think probably has you know, it puts a little 1:18:29.520 --> 1:18:32.599 more distance between people. So for people who out there, 1:18:32.640 --> 1:18:36.280 because it's it's amazing how quickly you can go from 1:18:36.320 --> 1:18:39.759 a program that is in the absolute depths of despair. 1:18:39.800 --> 1:18:42.360 Because I think people forget about Alabama now because they're 1:18:42.400 --> 1:18:45.840 so good. But Mike Schula had lost six straight years 1:18:45.880 --> 1:18:49.080 to Auburn. Right when Nick Saban took over, there was 1:18:49.120 --> 1:18:53.080 the question of will Alabama ever be anywhere near what 1:18:53.120 --> 1:18:56.960 they were with Bear Bryant. Right, there was that desperate hope. 1:18:56.960 --> 1:18:59.360 I mean, you can contextualize the program status better than 1:18:59.400 --> 1:19:01.879 I can, but I feel like people have short memories. 1:19:01.880 --> 1:19:04.800 I mean, they were worse than Tennessee has been at 1:19:04.800 --> 1:19:07.200 the dregs of Tennessee's ability, right, Like, that's kind of 1:19:07.200 --> 1:19:11.920 where the Alabama program listen when, uh, when Saban originally 1:19:11.960 --> 1:19:14.839 came out in late December in Miami in this famous 1:19:15.080 --> 1:19:18.040 moment when someone said, are are you going to be 1:19:18.080 --> 1:19:20.960 the Alabama coach? And and Saban said, if you're asking 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:22.720 me to say I'm not going to be the Alabama coach, 1:19:22.760 --> 1:19:25.120 I'm saying i Am not going to be the Alabama coach. 1:19:26.000 --> 1:19:29.000 That moment was one of the darkest days in Alabama 1:19:29.080 --> 1:19:32.160 history because at that at that point, remember Rich Rodriguez 1:19:32.200 --> 1:19:35.240 had already said no, Spurrier had been offered the job 1:19:35.320 --> 1:19:39.320 and said no, and now Saban has said I'm not 1:19:39.360 --> 1:19:41.880 going there. I mean, there was no one left. I 1:19:41.880 --> 1:19:44.200 think Bobby Petrino was the next coach on the list, 1:19:45.080 --> 1:19:49.080 and it just seemed like always lost. And then three 1:19:49.080 --> 1:19:52.439 weeks later, uh, Saban was there and and and it 1:19:52.520 --> 1:19:54.280 all seemed right with the world. But yeah, no, I mean, 1:19:54.320 --> 1:19:57.040 the Alabama program was a was a total dumpster fire. 1:19:57.520 --> 1:20:00.200 If Nick Saban never comes to Alabama, your career year 1:20:00.320 --> 1:20:05.040 is where right now? I'm in Birmingham right now, maybe employed, 1:20:05.160 --> 1:20:10.840 maybe not, because uh, he did you know? It was 1:20:10.880 --> 1:20:14.120 the confluence of going to that station at that moment 1:20:14.160 --> 1:20:18.640 in time, and without him there, I'm not sure I 1:20:18.680 --> 1:20:21.479 would Without saving I listen, I think I probably would 1:20:21.479 --> 1:20:24.160 have still gone to Jocks, And I'd say it's likely 1:20:24.200 --> 1:20:26.559 I would still be at Jocks, but it would be 1:20:26.560 --> 1:20:28.680 a different story than it is today for people out 1:20:28.720 --> 1:20:32.680 there listening on on this podcast who maybe aren't familiar 1:20:32.720 --> 1:20:36.240 with radio. You're being humble, but how big were the 1:20:36.439 --> 1:20:39.760 ratings for you guys at Jocks? Me, Joses, And let 1:20:39.800 --> 1:20:42.439 me give pre credit to Ryan Haney too, one of 1:20:42.479 --> 1:20:46.320 the best program directors for a radio station that I've 1:20:46.320 --> 1:20:47.680 ever heard of. And I'll give you a story. I 1:20:47.680 --> 1:20:49.599 don't know if you know this story. The first time 1:20:49.600 --> 1:20:52.080 that Lance Taylor had had me on who was doing 1:20:52.080 --> 1:20:56.599 the mid days before your show was when Mike Shulo 1:20:56.720 --> 1:20:59.639 stepped down and I wrote a column at CBS Sports 1:20:59.680 --> 1:21:03.760 at the time with the best potential replacements for uh 1:21:03.920 --> 1:21:06.439 for Mike Sula, and one of it was like ten 1:21:06.560 --> 1:21:09.599 kind of a joking suggestions, right. One of my ten 1:21:10.040 --> 1:21:14.479 was the reanimated corpse of Bear Brown. Remember that, Yeah, 1:21:14.600 --> 1:21:17.680 all right? And he like the phone lines just I 1:21:17.680 --> 1:21:20.439 mean exploded. If you ask a Lance about this right now, 1:21:20.800 --> 1:21:24.080 Me coming on in Birmingham and suggesting the reanimating corps 1:21:24.160 --> 1:21:27.240 of Bear Bryant as the replacement for Mike Sula just 1:21:27.320 --> 1:21:30.679 set tongues wagging like crazy. And I remember I met 1:21:30.760 --> 1:21:33.160 Ryan Haney shortly and Lance was like, Lance loved it. 1:21:33.160 --> 1:21:35.439 So I've been going on jocks for you know, weekly 1:21:35.439 --> 1:21:38.439 with Lance for over a decade now, um, but Lance 1:21:38.520 --> 1:21:40.400 loved it. But he was like, man, you should have 1:21:40.479 --> 1:21:42.960 heard the calls. And I feel like, and you'll know this, 1:21:43.360 --> 1:21:46.560 in our business, there are two different kinds of managers. 1:21:46.880 --> 1:21:50.200 There is the manager who the minute they get a complaint, 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:53.080 he curls up in the fetal position and it's like, 1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:55.599 calls you in and just read you the Riot Act 1:21:55.600 --> 1:21:58.559 and he's like, nobody's gonna listen if you say X, 1:21:58.720 --> 1:22:02.280 Y or Z. Right. Ryan Haney is the exact opposite, 1:22:02.280 --> 1:22:04.760 and he's as aggressive as anybody I've ever heard. He said, man, 1:22:04.800 --> 1:22:06.680 if we're not getting a ton of compliments, I mean 1:22:06.720 --> 1:22:09.200 a ton of complaints every day, it means we're doing 1:22:09.439 --> 1:22:12.120 radio the wrong way right. And you can speak to 1:22:12.160 --> 1:22:14.080 this better than I can. But he gave you a 1:22:14.160 --> 1:22:18.440 runway and let you run wild with that show. No, absolutely, 1:22:18.520 --> 1:22:22.400 And and you know what's interesting. Uh, when I went 1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:27.560 to Jocks Clay, even though I just turned fifty, I think, um, 1:22:27.680 --> 1:22:31.320 I've been in Birmingham forty almost thirty years. A lot 1:22:31.360 --> 1:22:34.240 of people didn't know me because, uh, you know, the 1:22:34.240 --> 1:22:38.960 newspaper business had already collapsed. Uh, young young people were 1:22:38.960 --> 1:22:42.639 not listening to me following Rush Limbaugh on a news 1:22:42.640 --> 1:22:45.480 talk So I was introduced to well and and he 1:22:45.479 --> 1:22:48.320 he uh you know, he took a gamble because he 1:22:48.360 --> 1:22:50.639 didn't have that he didn't have to have me. Um. 1:22:51.080 --> 1:22:53.799 And I took a gamble by taking significantly less money 1:22:53.840 --> 1:22:57.360 that it would work out. And and I mean the 1:22:57.640 --> 1:22:59.640 place was a dump. Okay. I walked in there with 1:22:59.680 --> 1:23:01.880 my team, and I mean they were like, how did 1:23:01.920 --> 1:23:05.360 you and how did you? Uh? A guy came I 1:23:05.439 --> 1:23:07.000 think it was trying to remember it was a New 1:23:07.040 --> 1:23:11.680 Yorker writer. Uh. He described the building we were in 1:23:11.800 --> 1:23:16.200 as a as a as a Russian prison camp or something. 1:23:16.200 --> 1:23:17.680 I mean it was by the way, that's where a 1:23:17.680 --> 1:23:20.200 lot of radio stations are, right. I mean, there's not 1:23:20.320 --> 1:23:22.240 you said you had a great view in the in 1:23:22.320 --> 1:23:24.720 the you know, the studio that you left. There's a 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:28.519 lot of people who do radio out of basically Russian bunkers, 1:23:28.680 --> 1:23:33.280 but it was it was you were one of the 1:23:33.320 --> 1:23:36.280 few people that that understand my next statement, it was 1:23:36.720 --> 1:23:40.400 the single best decision in my entire career to go 1:23:40.520 --> 1:23:44.960 to jocks for less money, uh, for less, for inferior 1:23:45.000 --> 1:23:48.519 working conditions, uh, the wrath of my my closest friends 1:23:48.520 --> 1:23:52.080 and team, But it was the right call because without 1:23:52.120 --> 1:23:56.519 that I could have never uh gotten to where I 1:23:56.600 --> 1:23:59.920 am now. And and sometimes you just have to you know, 1:24:00.080 --> 1:24:02.559 you have to take a chance and potentially be willing 1:24:02.560 --> 1:24:04.680 to go backwards in order to go forwards, right, I mean, 1:24:04.680 --> 1:24:08.439 it's like anything else. So the show takes off, becomes 1:24:08.479 --> 1:24:11.880 wildly popular. Uh, Nick saban Is is driving you know, 1:24:11.920 --> 1:24:16.000 the Alabama Dynasty to different levels. Um. And a guy 1:24:16.080 --> 1:24:19.600 named Harvey Updke calls your show and talks about the 1:24:19.640 --> 1:24:22.040 fact that he had toys in the yoaks at Tumors, 1:24:22.120 --> 1:24:24.719 which is I think, I mean, more than anything else, 1:24:25.160 --> 1:24:29.680 put your local radio show into the stratosphere. Well, you 1:24:30.000 --> 1:24:32.280 mentioned the ratings and and and for for a guy 1:24:32.280 --> 1:24:33.720 that used to be at the news talk, I mean 1:24:33.720 --> 1:24:36.040 you kind of dreaded the four days a year when 1:24:36.080 --> 1:24:38.400 you got the ratings. I mean, now it was just 1:24:38.600 --> 1:24:40.519 it was it was It was ridiculous. It was like 1:24:40.560 --> 1:24:44.599 going to Vegas and just saying and having the pit 1:24:44.720 --> 1:24:47.639 boss nod saying that you're letting you know you're about 1:24:47.680 --> 1:24:51.120 to win a million dollars UM. So the ratings started 1:24:51.840 --> 1:24:55.599 going crazy, the show started getting attention. And one thing 1:24:55.640 --> 1:24:58.280 before that, I want to say, after Alabama won the 1:24:58.360 --> 1:25:01.480 national championship, while on the way back from from Pasadena 1:25:01.520 --> 1:25:04.479 and in early two thousand and ten, Pat Smith called 1:25:04.520 --> 1:25:07.160 me and said, I just got a crazy call from 1:25:07.200 --> 1:25:11.280 Sirius XM and they want to put our show in 1:25:11.320 --> 1:25:15.799 the afternoons on their college sports channel, which we went on. UH, 1:25:15.840 --> 1:25:18.920 and I thought they were insane. So a couple of 1:25:18.920 --> 1:25:22.080 months later, it's now January of two thousand and eleven, 1:25:22.840 --> 1:25:28.160 and Cam Newton had just led Auburn to a national championship. UH, 1:25:28.560 --> 1:25:31.280 in part because of the most creative lawyer ing in 1:25:31.320 --> 1:25:34.519 the history of the medium, our very close and dear 1:25:34.880 --> 1:25:39.880 and late friend Mike's live UH and UH. The last 1:25:39.880 --> 1:25:42.680 thirty minutes of the show, I'm like all hosts at 1:25:42.680 --> 1:25:44.640 the last year, just kind of get me out of here. 1:25:44.680 --> 1:25:48.959 It's it's it's January, and a guy named Alfam Daville 1:25:49.040 --> 1:25:52.920 calls up and starts rambling about something of no consequence 1:25:52.920 --> 1:25:54.880 that happened thirty years later. Then finally at the end 1:25:54.920 --> 1:25:58.639 he admits to poisoning the tumors trees and we hang 1:25:58.760 --> 1:26:02.639 up play and I didn't give it much thought. Two 1:26:02.680 --> 1:26:05.000 weeks later, I got a call from a friend who 1:26:05.080 --> 1:26:08.240 was uh uh the staff person for Richard Shelby, the 1:26:08.280 --> 1:26:12.240 Alabama senior senator on the Homeland Security UH Subcommittee, and 1:26:12.240 --> 1:26:15.439 he said, uh, this, this deal is being investigated for 1:26:15.560 --> 1:26:18.160 a as a terrorist threat. And the next day they 1:26:18.200 --> 1:26:23.120 arrested Harvey ub Duck and and from there it's just 1:26:23.160 --> 1:26:26.840 an absolute craziness. Now, I want to go into here 1:26:26.960 --> 1:26:30.479 from a perspective of a show. What I admired listening 1:26:30.520 --> 1:26:32.120 to your show, and I'd go back and forth from 1:26:32.120 --> 1:26:35.680 Birmingham quite a bit, is the high low dichotomy. And 1:26:35.720 --> 1:26:38.280 I'm curious how much of this was conscious on your part. 1:26:38.600 --> 1:26:41.240 People who are listening to this podcast are probably going 1:26:41.280 --> 1:26:44.200 to think Paul fis Paul five Bomb is a pretty 1:26:44.240 --> 1:26:48.639 smart guy. And certainly if you conduct interviews on your show, 1:26:48.840 --> 1:26:52.479 they are very high level interviews, and you've conducted interviews 1:26:52.520 --> 1:26:55.639 with like you said, you're interested in politics like culture. 1:26:55.680 --> 1:26:58.040 I mean, you can talk to pretty much anybody right 1:26:58.200 --> 1:27:01.599 on your on your radio program. But you would mix 1:27:01.680 --> 1:27:05.400 that with some of the most outrageous and outlandish callers 1:27:05.479 --> 1:27:08.760 that you have ever heard, and so it was a 1:27:08.880 --> 1:27:12.640 carnival of excess, both high end and low end. Was 1:27:12.680 --> 1:27:16.120 that a natural decision or did it happen organically? How 1:27:16.120 --> 1:27:19.680 did you go about creating the dynamic that exists and 1:27:19.720 --> 1:27:23.120 still exists in your show. I think it just happened. Listen. 1:27:23.160 --> 1:27:27.000 I love the highbrower interview. Um, and I've had I've 1:27:27.000 --> 1:27:31.120 had Mike Slive's wife once tried to talk me. She said, 1:27:31.120 --> 1:27:33.080 you probably you're wasting your time doing what you're doing. 1:27:33.120 --> 1:27:35.479 You need to know go to work for NPR. Yes, 1:27:35.640 --> 1:27:37.920 And I said to her, I said, listen, Liz uh, 1:27:38.040 --> 1:27:43.200 I really would rather not starve. I enjoy you and 1:27:42.800 --> 1:27:45.639 and and I think there's I think it's I think 1:27:45.680 --> 1:27:47.559 this could be said about you as well, not to 1:27:47.840 --> 1:27:51.640 psychoanalyze you for a podcast that on the subject, But 1:27:52.240 --> 1:27:55.679 I love those highbrower interviews, but when when it when 1:27:55.680 --> 1:27:58.760 it comes down to pure entertainment, my curiosity level goes 1:27:58.840 --> 1:28:03.639 to the lowest common denominators and I want the drama. 1:28:03.760 --> 1:28:06.920 And and I don't think I did it consciously, It's 1:28:06.960 --> 1:28:10.840 just started to happen. Um, and the when I'm talking 1:28:10.880 --> 1:28:13.559 to one of these type of callers, uh, that you 1:28:13.600 --> 1:28:17.320 have talked to and uh you you and and uh 1:28:17.560 --> 1:28:20.200 and Chris Vernon used to just destroy on our show. 1:28:20.479 --> 1:28:22.080 We would have a lot of fun. Just I would 1:28:22.080 --> 1:28:24.679 take calls, you know from Alabama fans who are furious 1:28:24.720 --> 1:28:27.920 with me. I just there's not another thing in the 1:28:27.960 --> 1:28:30.799 world that matters to me other than pushing that person 1:28:30.960 --> 1:28:35.479 lower um and getting the most insane call out of it. 1:28:35.520 --> 1:28:38.559 Because it's entertainment and it's listen, Howard Stern. What makes 1:28:38.560 --> 1:28:42.920 thirty two million dollars a year appealing to that level? 1:28:43.000 --> 1:28:44.640 And I don't I don't think I could do it 1:28:44.680 --> 1:28:47.719 every day, But I think the mix of it. Someone 1:28:47.760 --> 1:28:49.840 once wrote or described the show as a three ring 1:28:49.920 --> 1:28:52.320 circus that you have the middle ring and then you 1:28:52.360 --> 1:28:56.320 have the two extremes. And they're really smart people know 1:28:56.400 --> 1:28:58.759 what's going on at all times on all three rings, 1:28:58.960 --> 1:29:01.759 but a lot of people only lock into that singular 1:29:01.840 --> 1:29:04.880 ring that that appeals to their level. No, I think 1:29:04.880 --> 1:29:06.559 that's all said. And that's what I always say about 1:29:06.600 --> 1:29:09.280 high low drama. The people who like and this is 1:29:09.280 --> 1:29:11.920 where I think Stern was brilliant. The people who like 1:29:12.120 --> 1:29:16.559 high end intellectual discourse on radio interviews are often the 1:29:16.600 --> 1:29:19.840 same people who like, uh the Jared Springer elements too. 1:29:20.240 --> 1:29:23.000 And the Internet certainly has has brought this home to 1:29:23.040 --> 1:29:26.920 bear very much so where really high caliber, high end 1:29:27.200 --> 1:29:31.160 intellectual entertainment does well, but so does the exact opposite. 1:29:31.240 --> 1:29:33.160 And uh, and you mentioned I want to get to 1:29:33.160 --> 1:29:36.000 to this certainly, you mentioned Mike Slide just threw a 1:29:36.560 --> 1:29:40.160 quote from his wife there. When did Slive start listening 1:29:40.200 --> 1:29:43.479 to the show? When did you start interacting with Mike Slive? 1:29:43.720 --> 1:29:46.479 What was your relationship? And for people out there who 1:29:46.479 --> 1:29:51.599 don't know, Mike's live was the SEC commissioner who basically 1:29:51.640 --> 1:29:55.879 took the SEC into a national brand. Um and obviously 1:29:55.920 --> 1:29:58.639 the SEC is based out of Birmingham. Uh So you 1:29:58.640 --> 1:30:01.680 guys were not very far apart from a geographic perspective 1:30:01.720 --> 1:30:04.640 as this show is going. I met him for the 1:30:04.640 --> 1:30:06.200 first time. I chased him down in the U A 1:30:06.280 --> 1:30:09.960 B basketball game, uh, yelling at him why why the 1:30:10.040 --> 1:30:12.800 league had not taken U A B into Conference USA? 1:30:12.960 --> 1:30:16.120 And he the next time I think I saw him 1:30:17.439 --> 1:30:19.720 a correction, That's not true, because he was he was 1:30:20.320 --> 1:30:21.640 he was at he was at a U A B 1:30:21.720 --> 1:30:23.720 game as a Conference us A commissioner. I was. I 1:30:23.760 --> 1:30:26.599 was chasing him down, asking him why uh, something about 1:30:26.600 --> 1:30:30.160 Alabama's probation Clay I stand corrected. He was the chairman 1:30:30.160 --> 1:30:33.839 of the Appeals Committee. And he brushed me off, like 1:30:33.840 --> 1:30:36.599 like I was a bum on the street. Um, and 1:30:36.600 --> 1:30:41.240 this would have been at something uh and and then 1:30:41.240 --> 1:30:43.160 I think I was critical of him about something else 1:30:43.240 --> 1:30:47.880 involving a Conference USA, and and uh and and you 1:30:48.000 --> 1:30:50.479 a B but when you know? And then then there 1:30:50.520 --> 1:30:53.719 was a break, and then he came back his first 1:30:54.400 --> 1:30:57.040 press conferences commissioner. He said every every school would be 1:30:57.080 --> 1:30:59.920 off probation in five years. And I spent the entire 1:31:00.120 --> 1:31:03.200 afternoon cascadading him, saying that this guy is so clueless, 1:31:03.520 --> 1:31:05.800 doesn't know what he's talking about. He heard about it, 1:31:06.080 --> 1:31:08.120 and instead of saying, you know what, I'll never talk 1:31:08.200 --> 1:31:10.840 to that guy again, he decided to come down and 1:31:10.880 --> 1:31:14.080 do the show. Um. About a month or two later, 1:31:14.120 --> 1:31:17.280 we found ourselves in a press box and Sayettville, Arkansas, 1:31:17.680 --> 1:31:19.680 and he asked me. I'd gone with one of the 1:31:19.720 --> 1:31:22.640 team doctors and he said, uh, are you are you 1:31:22.680 --> 1:31:26.479 going right back? Or what? I said? Well, there was 1:31:26.479 --> 1:31:29.439 something long we we had to go somewhere, he said 1:31:29.479 --> 1:31:31.200 to me, Um, he said, well, why don't you fly 1:31:31.280 --> 1:31:33.960 back with Liz and I. So I flew back with 1:31:34.120 --> 1:31:39.320 Liz and we spent the entire she was learning Hebrew 1:31:39.360 --> 1:31:41.960 at the time, or it is, or I can't remember 1:31:41.960 --> 1:31:43.680 what she was, and we spent the entire time talking 1:31:43.720 --> 1:31:46.800 about Judaism. We had lunch about a week or two later. 1:31:46.880 --> 1:31:48.960 I brought him a book and you know the rest. Uh. 1:31:49.200 --> 1:31:51.479 We we started this book club, which he was. He 1:31:51.560 --> 1:31:53.760 loved talking about that and we would just have these 1:31:53.800 --> 1:32:00.400 intellectual lunches every four the six weeks. And I was 1:32:00.479 --> 1:32:02.680 with him the day I had lunch with him the 1:32:02.760 --> 1:32:04.760 day he was going over to Atlanta to meet with 1:32:04.960 --> 1:32:09.479 John Skipper to UH agree on launching the SEC network. 1:32:10.280 --> 1:32:13.400 I was with him many other momentous moments uh and 1:32:13.400 --> 1:32:16.320 we had and these lunches were fantastic until we started 1:32:16.320 --> 1:32:18.400 talking about my own career at one of these at 1:32:18.400 --> 1:32:20.479 the lunches, and then most of the fun was over 1:32:20.520 --> 1:32:22.280 because it was much more fun talking about books and 1:32:22.760 --> 1:32:24.679 than whether or not I would go to work for ESPN. 1:32:24.720 --> 1:32:27.760 I know, I just jumped about eight eight blocks ahead there. 1:32:27.880 --> 1:32:32.080 But he's he was sixteen years older than me. He 1:32:32.120 --> 1:32:35.760 was the older brother I never had UM. And by 1:32:35.760 --> 1:32:38.439 the time he died a little over a year ago, 1:32:39.160 --> 1:32:41.679 I mean, he was clearly one of the closest friends 1:32:42.200 --> 1:32:46.919 UH in my life, and the being asked and delivering 1:32:46.920 --> 1:32:51.400 the eulogy at his general remains the singular UH honor 1:32:51.479 --> 1:32:53.320 of my career and the thing I'm most proud of. 1:32:54.479 --> 1:32:57.080 He is he was an incredible guy and UH, I 1:32:57.120 --> 1:33:00.400 will say this, the high low humor was not lost 1:33:00.479 --> 1:33:03.680 on him because I remember I did a big profile 1:33:03.760 --> 1:33:07.400 piece on him and UH, and before we started the 1:33:07.439 --> 1:33:11.479 profile piece, he wanted to talk about me taking calls 1:33:11.720 --> 1:33:14.800 from your callers and say how much he loved it, right, 1:33:14.840 --> 1:33:17.559 I mean, how much he absolutely loved me going after 1:33:17.600 --> 1:33:20.720 the callers and UH and arguing with them and you know, 1:33:20.800 --> 1:33:22.519 kind of getting in the mud, so to speak. And 1:33:22.560 --> 1:33:25.920 he was like, oh, it's you know, fantastic stuff. And um, 1:33:26.120 --> 1:33:28.360 and I think and I don't think I'm doing any 1:33:28.400 --> 1:33:32.559 exaggeration here. He was so instrumental in the way that 1:33:32.600 --> 1:33:37.320 the SEC network exists in sounds now because the conservative 1:33:37.360 --> 1:33:39.360 and we're talking about Ryan Haney and the risks that 1:33:39.439 --> 1:33:44.439 programmers can take. The conservative gesture would have been to 1:33:44.560 --> 1:33:46.599 do a little bit like what the Big ten network 1:33:46.640 --> 1:33:51.280 has done, right, anything remotely controversial, let's run away from it. 1:33:51.640 --> 1:33:55.200 You're on that network for four hours every day, and 1:33:55.360 --> 1:33:57.400 I don't know what you know, what the numbers would be, 1:33:57.680 --> 1:34:01.160 but every single day a lot of coaches and administrations 1:34:01.320 --> 1:34:06.000 and schools come in for for for getting censured by callers, right, 1:34:06.400 --> 1:34:09.800 and sometimes negative things that are being said, maybe even 1:34:09.840 --> 1:34:12.840 frequently negative things that are being said. Yet it's also 1:34:13.280 --> 1:34:16.920 a as a result, a somewhat accurate reflection of a 1:34:16.960 --> 1:34:19.599 fan base or fan basis on a day to day basis, 1:34:19.880 --> 1:34:22.479 which we had not seen and frankly still haven't seen 1:34:22.520 --> 1:34:24.479 from the Big ten network. So this was a pretty 1:34:24.560 --> 1:34:26.640 radical jump for him to want to put you on 1:34:26.720 --> 1:34:31.600 the SEC network. No, and and and listen, Uh, I 1:34:31.600 --> 1:34:34.160 don't want to go too many steps back, but but 1:34:34.240 --> 1:34:39.479 the road here was pretty fascinating. Uh, Clay because um 1:34:39.680 --> 1:34:44.280 I you've probably heard the story before. But towards the 1:34:44.400 --> 1:34:48.160 end of the towards the middle of two thousand and twelve, 1:34:48.640 --> 1:34:54.599 I was I was not unhappy with with Jocks per se. 1:34:54.640 --> 1:34:56.439 I love jocks. It was the it was the it 1:34:56.520 --> 1:34:58.960 was a parent company that I was distraught with him. 1:34:58.960 --> 1:35:02.760 I had joined the club. Yeah, well, uh, Clay and 1:35:02.760 --> 1:35:06.439 I were pretty much introduced, having many conversations about so anyway, 1:35:06.439 --> 1:35:08.479 I had had legal issues with them. You had you 1:35:08.479 --> 1:35:11.639 had legal issues with them, and so I began looking 1:35:11.720 --> 1:35:14.600 around for a someplace to go. I mean, I just 1:35:14.640 --> 1:35:17.719 did not want to stay there any longer. The company 1:35:17.800 --> 1:35:20.320 was the parent company was in bankruptcy, was just too 1:35:20.600 --> 1:35:25.360 So one of these lunches with Mike Slive, Uh, we 1:35:25.400 --> 1:35:27.240 had now been on serious X them for two years. 1:35:27.280 --> 1:35:29.719 They wanted to hire me, I said, Mike, I said, listen, 1:35:30.200 --> 1:35:34.200 I'm talking to various people. Had I had a really 1:35:34.200 --> 1:35:37.120 good lawyer in town that represented me, that represents a 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:40.559 lot of our mutual friends. But I felt like I 1:35:40.600 --> 1:35:44.559 needed an entertainment agent. So he recommended somebody and he said, 1:35:44.640 --> 1:35:48.440 let me let me set it up. I said, I'm sure. Um, 1:35:48.520 --> 1:35:52.160 So he set up this meeting with I would say 1:35:52.160 --> 1:35:54.479 at the time Clay, he was the number one guy 1:35:54.520 --> 1:35:58.240 in the business. Uh in New York. Took six weeks 1:35:58.240 --> 1:35:59.960 to set the meeting up. Not only was he there, 1:36:00.080 --> 1:36:04.960 but the head of the company was there. I thought 1:36:05.040 --> 1:36:09.840 my career was had been made um that this was it. 1:36:10.040 --> 1:36:11.519 I mean, you get a meeting with a guy like that. 1:36:11.560 --> 1:36:13.920 The guys like this don't take meetings with with SMOs 1:36:14.000 --> 1:36:19.640 like me. I walk in, Uh, he said, in a 1:36:19.960 --> 1:36:23.280 very brusque New York fashion. I'm over. We're over on 1:36:23.360 --> 1:36:26.640 the floor, We're looking Central Park. He goes, what can 1:36:26.680 --> 1:36:29.840 I do for you? I'm like, going, whoa this is? 1:36:30.040 --> 1:36:37.120 This isn't going very well. I said, Uh, don't worry this. 1:36:37.240 --> 1:36:40.080 This is not a long conversations, so you don't worry 1:36:40.080 --> 1:36:42.160 about wearing at a tape on this one. I said, 1:36:43.400 --> 1:36:48.200 I've been in contact with Sirius XM. And before I 1:36:48.200 --> 1:36:49.880 could even finish, he said, they're not going to hire you. 1:36:51.120 --> 1:36:54.599 I go, okay, I said, well, I'm um. By the way, 1:36:54.640 --> 1:36:56.479 I've been on serious X time out for two years. 1:36:58.000 --> 1:37:00.080 He said, I said, well, he said, listen, I'm oh, 1:37:00.160 --> 1:37:02.519 all those guys. Uh, you know, someone shows one of 1:37:02.560 --> 1:37:04.559 my closest friends. They're not gonna hire you. You're a 1:37:04.560 --> 1:37:09.679 regional guy. I go, well, I mean, Clay, I didn't 1:37:09.760 --> 1:37:11.120 for a guy who talks for a living. I didn't 1:37:11.120 --> 1:37:13.639 know what to say. We're now at maybe the two 1:37:13.640 --> 1:37:19.840 and a half minute market this meeting, so I'm I said, well, listen, 1:37:19.960 --> 1:37:25.600 uh anything else. I'm like what I said, Well, I 1:37:25.680 --> 1:37:29.639 had given some thought to maybe working for ESPN at something. 1:37:29.640 --> 1:37:33.519 He said, ESPN is not gonna hire you. I go, well, um, 1:37:33.840 --> 1:37:35.880 he said you. He said, do you know who something 1:37:35.920 --> 1:37:39.040 my clients are, and then he listed a bunch of 1:37:39.040 --> 1:37:42.040 a list people that we're all at the very upper 1:37:42.080 --> 1:37:45.360 echelon of the business. I go, well, I'm struggling to 1:37:45.400 --> 1:37:48.080 even say anything at this point. So the president of 1:37:48.080 --> 1:37:51.080 the company is no longer the president. He he looks 1:37:51.120 --> 1:37:53.320 at me, he looks at the other guy, says, well, 1:37:53.320 --> 1:37:56.439 maybe we could uh, I mean, feeling sorry for me, 1:37:56.439 --> 1:37:58.920 he said, we get Paul some uh you know we 1:37:59.000 --> 1:38:03.560 own uh and say it we own. I am g college, Um, 1:38:03.600 --> 1:38:07.600 maybe we could get Paul some sideline work. I'm like, 1:38:08.200 --> 1:38:10.840 I mean, I'm like, I mean, I'm you know about 1:38:10.880 --> 1:38:15.240 being I mean, humiliation doesn't describe it. Okay. I said, 1:38:15.240 --> 1:38:20.000 well that's okay, um, so he said anything else. We're 1:38:20.040 --> 1:38:23.280 now maybe eight minutes in okay, okay. I have another 1:38:23.360 --> 1:38:26.400 meeting in about two hours before I go to La Guardia. 1:38:26.880 --> 1:38:29.599 I said, well, listen, um, if you get a chance, 1:38:29.680 --> 1:38:33.960 maybe you could call the guy's serious xm uh. He said, yeah, 1:38:34.000 --> 1:38:35.080 I'll give him a call. And he said, you know, 1:38:35.080 --> 1:38:37.720 as a as a favor to the family. That was 1:38:37.800 --> 1:38:40.519 a take that for whatever you want. But I was like, 1:38:40.920 --> 1:38:43.840 I'm doing this as a favorite of Slive. I walk 1:38:43.920 --> 1:38:47.920 out of there. I head over to Central Park because 1:38:47.960 --> 1:38:51.680 my next meeting was at the Ritz Carlton On I 1:38:51.680 --> 1:38:55.120 think Central Park South. I mean, I'm talking to myself. 1:38:55.479 --> 1:38:58.080 I mean, I'm like a bum in Central Park. I 1:38:58.160 --> 1:39:01.280 call my wife. She said, howd to go? I said, 1:39:01.360 --> 1:39:04.759 it was a disaster, and she she said, well maybe 1:39:04.760 --> 1:39:07.880 I guess, um, I guess, I said. I said to her, 1:39:07.880 --> 1:39:09.000 I said, I guess we'll just spend the rest of 1:39:09.040 --> 1:39:10.800 our lives in Birmingham. And she said, well, there's nothing 1:39:10.800 --> 1:39:13.280 wrong with that, you know. She's I called Pat Smith 1:39:13.320 --> 1:39:16.400 and he's in shock. And I mean I literally walked 1:39:16.439 --> 1:39:20.080 around for an hour and finally meet this guy at 1:39:20.160 --> 1:39:22.280 the Rich Carlton and you're gonna You're gonna figure out 1:39:22.280 --> 1:39:25.320 the story here in a minute. He was a blogger 1:39:26.000 --> 1:39:27.800 and he had asked if he could do talk to 1:39:27.840 --> 1:39:29.720 me if I was ever up there, and I told 1:39:29.760 --> 1:39:31.160 him I'd be in New York. So I meet this 1:39:31.200 --> 1:39:34.599 guy named Reid's Wideman for some coffee. I'm not listening 1:39:34.600 --> 1:39:37.679 to a word he says. He's a he's a sports 1:39:37.720 --> 1:39:44.040 blogger for the New Yorker magazine and he I heard 1:39:44.120 --> 1:39:47.680 him say David Remnick, who's the editor of the magazine, 1:39:48.120 --> 1:39:50.920 that had wanted to do a college football profile they 1:39:50.920 --> 1:39:53.360 had not done one in many years, and that they 1:39:53.360 --> 1:39:57.559 talked about something between five and six thousand words on me. 1:39:58.360 --> 1:40:02.600 Am I going, what uh So? Anyway, I leave, I go, 1:40:02.800 --> 1:40:07.080 I go, I catch a Capital Guardia. A week later, 1:40:08.800 --> 1:40:11.479 the same guy just sat with in the office who 1:40:11.479 --> 1:40:13.680 blew me off, called me and said serious wanted to 1:40:13.760 --> 1:40:16.120 hire me and he'd be more than happy to send 1:40:16.120 --> 1:40:21.200 me an engagement agreement. I went back to Slide, I said, Mike, 1:40:21.240 --> 1:40:23.400 I'm done with this guy. I ended up talking to 1:40:23.479 --> 1:40:27.000 Joe Tessa Tour, who I had gotten to know through 1:40:27.120 --> 1:40:29.320 roll Tide War Eagle He and Bruce Felman had been 1:40:29.320 --> 1:40:32.600 the producers of them, and he said, I got a 1:40:32.600 --> 1:40:34.360 guy for you need to meet Nick Con. I said, 1:40:34.640 --> 1:40:38.280 I didn't know who Nick was. UM, so Nick offered 1:40:38.280 --> 1:40:42.160 to fly to see me. UM, think about this. One 1:40:42.200 --> 1:40:44.760 of my closest friends I got named Gene Hallman. Do 1:40:44.800 --> 1:40:48.519 you know Gene. Gene used to be an agent. I 1:40:48.560 --> 1:40:50.920 told you, Jean said, I really know who this guy is. 1:40:51.280 --> 1:40:55.080 Let so Jene calls Nick con who, for those who 1:40:55.120 --> 1:40:57.040 don't know, is now the biggest agent in the business, 1:40:57.600 --> 1:41:01.080 and in full disclosure, also refer that's me in addition 1:41:01.160 --> 1:41:02.840 to a lot of a lot of other people in 1:41:02.880 --> 1:41:05.080 the universe of sports. Me. But Nick is an awesome guy. 1:41:05.160 --> 1:41:08.000 But yes, I can tell you Gene calls and interviews 1:41:08.080 --> 1:41:10.559 Nick con form and make sure he's okay. That's how, 1:41:10.720 --> 1:41:13.120 that's how, that's how down on agents. I was so 1:41:13.200 --> 1:41:16.200 anyway to speed this story up because I realized we're 1:41:16.200 --> 1:41:19.240 gonna go into like the tenth hour here in a minute. UM. 1:41:19.960 --> 1:41:23.639 I go through the college football season the first week 1:41:23.640 --> 1:41:26.840 of December, the Monday after the championship game, the epic 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:32.200 game between Alabama and Georgia. Hello, Aaron Murray. UM, the 1:41:32.360 --> 1:41:39.719 article comes out in the New Yorker. Uh the I'm 1:41:39.720 --> 1:41:41.840 in New York the next day. I'm happened to be 1:41:41.880 --> 1:41:44.880 there for the Sports Business Journal conference. I get a 1:41:44.880 --> 1:41:48.280 call from a literary agent who comes up with this 1:41:48.320 --> 1:41:52.519 idea to do a book. Nick con sends the article 1:41:52.800 --> 1:41:55.560 to John Skipper, the former president of the ESPN. I 1:41:55.600 --> 1:41:58.479 don't know one of your closest friends. He had called 1:41:58.479 --> 1:42:00.599 Skipper in September and said, listen, I got a guy 1:42:00.680 --> 1:42:02.639 named Paul fin Boum. I think you ought to look 1:42:02.680 --> 1:42:07.040 at He goes, never heard of him. The article that 1:42:07.280 --> 1:42:09.400 that's wild in and of itself to me that Skipper 1:42:09.600 --> 1:42:11.479 hadn't heard of you at that point. But that's what 1:42:11.520 --> 1:42:15.400 the New Yorker can do. Write profile piece, he tells. 1:42:15.479 --> 1:42:17.320 The Skipper reads the article, so we gotta hire this 1:42:17.360 --> 1:42:20.200 guy for the SEC network. A couple of weeks later, 1:42:20.560 --> 1:42:24.800 I'm running I run into uh, Mike's Mike's Live. I 1:42:24.880 --> 1:42:27.479 run into Mike's Live on the field of the National 1:42:27.560 --> 1:42:30.320 Championship game between Alabama and Notre Dame. He said, you're 1:42:30.320 --> 1:42:32.800 not gonna believe this story. I go, what's that? He said? 1:42:32.840 --> 1:42:36.719 I had breakfast with Skipper today and he goes Mike, 1:42:38.000 --> 1:42:39.680 I've got a guy I want to make I want 1:42:39.680 --> 1:42:41.679 to hire to be the first guy at the SEC network. 1:42:41.720 --> 1:42:43.720 Make him to face. But I'm not sure you're going 1:42:43.760 --> 1:42:46.360 to go along with it. But we have we have 1:42:46.520 --> 1:42:48.920 to have this guy. And Michaels well, who is it? 1:42:49.240 --> 1:42:51.479 Of course my card, he knows the story, he says, 1:42:51.520 --> 1:42:54.080 it's Paul fin Boum. He said, what's your relationship? He said, 1:42:54.080 --> 1:42:55.280 other than the fact he's one of my two or 1:42:55.280 --> 1:42:57.559 three closest friends, he said, we don't know each other 1:42:57.640 --> 1:43:00.280 very well. Skipper breaks out laughing. They make the stason 1:43:00.280 --> 1:43:02.960 to hire me, obviously, I just I sped through a 1:43:02.960 --> 1:43:04.519 lot of a lot a lot of ground there on 1:43:04.600 --> 1:43:06.439 that long, drawing out story. But I think you know, 1:43:06.720 --> 1:43:10.320 you realize now how I got to ESPN. So you're 1:43:10.360 --> 1:43:13.240 at ESPN. You've got the show two to six, the 1:43:13.400 --> 1:43:18.080 SEC Network of launches. It has been wildly successful, blown 1:43:18.160 --> 1:43:22.320 through all of the pre revenue expectations. The show has 1:43:22.360 --> 1:43:25.120 gone really, really well. You are now in many ways. 1:43:25.120 --> 1:43:27.280 We started off this conversation talking about the fact that 1:43:27.320 --> 1:43:29.320 they now have a drink named after you. At the 1:43:29.360 --> 1:43:34.639 five year anniversary party for ESPN and the SEC How 1:43:34.680 --> 1:43:37.479 has the show changed as a result of being on 1:43:37.600 --> 1:43:43.760 the SEC network. It's different in certain ways. Uh. It's 1:43:43.800 --> 1:43:47.440 it's a television show versus a radio show, which, um, 1:43:47.520 --> 1:43:49.840 a lot of the old line people don't like it. 1:43:49.880 --> 1:43:52.920 I mean it's it's it's you know, television, television, Clay 1:43:52.960 --> 1:43:55.160 you do it. Uh, it's not quite the same as 1:43:55.240 --> 1:43:58.559 as a freewheeling radio show. You end up doing certain 1:43:58.600 --> 1:44:02.720 things to to check check boxes because it is a 1:44:02.760 --> 1:44:08.800 conference affiliation. Uh, it's not quite as cutthroat as it 1:44:08.920 --> 1:44:12.920 was back in Birmingham. I mean, you are cognizant of 1:44:12.920 --> 1:44:16.040 of the relationships, although I don't you. I don't. I 1:44:16.040 --> 1:44:17.840 don't walk in every day going or are you gonna 1:44:17.840 --> 1:44:20.599 make somebody mad? Because you you you know, Uh, it's 1:44:20.600 --> 1:44:22.680 impossible not to make somebody mad if you give an 1:44:22.720 --> 1:44:25.280 opinion on anything, and you and you wrote a lot 1:44:25.320 --> 1:44:27.519 about things that happened a year ago which are no 1:44:27.520 --> 1:44:32.400 longer terribly important that m I uh, you know, I've 1:44:32.400 --> 1:44:36.439 made a few people mad here, um, and but you 1:44:36.800 --> 1:44:39.680 just you work through it. And unfortunately now we're in 1:44:39.720 --> 1:44:42.799 a really good place. The company is in a good place, 1:44:42.880 --> 1:44:46.080 and and all of that seems like another lifetime ago. 1:44:46.200 --> 1:44:49.240 But uh, it's been Uh, I've been at the company 1:44:49.280 --> 1:44:53.480 six years, about starting my seventh. The network is celebrating 1:44:53.520 --> 1:44:55.519 its fifth and I mean, you go through a lot 1:44:55.560 --> 1:44:59.080 of a lot of trials and tribulations in any kind 1:44:59.080 --> 1:45:01.720 of relationship like us, but it's still, at the end 1:45:01.760 --> 1:45:04.320 of the conversation, a really great place to work. Be 1:45:04.400 --> 1:45:06.960 sure to catch live editions about Kick the Coverage with 1:45:07.000 --> 1:45:10.600 Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern, three am Pacific. 1:45:12.040 --> 1:45:15.000 We're talking Paul Fine Bomb, Wins and Losses is the podcast. 1:45:15.080 --> 1:45:19.160 I'm Clay Travis. Last question for you, how would you 1:45:19.200 --> 1:45:21.640 distinguish for people out there who are listening to us 1:45:21.760 --> 1:45:25.200 right now and they're interested in writing, they're interested in radio, 1:45:25.439 --> 1:45:28.400 they're interested in TV. I tell them all that the 1:45:28.479 --> 1:45:31.880 disciplines are completely different. What works in one may not 1:45:32.000 --> 1:45:34.559 work in the other may not work at all across 1:45:34.600 --> 1:45:37.760 the board. What have you learned about writing, radio, and 1:45:37.800 --> 1:45:40.960 TV having done them all well, that you think is 1:45:41.080 --> 1:45:43.400 useful for people out there listening right now who may 1:45:43.479 --> 1:45:46.680 want to one day following your footsteps and potentially be 1:45:46.760 --> 1:45:51.320 doing all three well as a radio reporter, excuse me, 1:45:51.360 --> 1:45:53.880 as a newsaper reporter. I think you have to have 1:45:53.960 --> 1:45:58.120 a level of of relentlessness because nowadays there's there's so 1:45:58.120 --> 1:46:01.920 many doors being slammed in your face. In radio, I 1:46:01.960 --> 1:46:04.519 think you have to find a way to nuance that 1:46:04.640 --> 1:46:07.519 a little bit. Uh. You don't want to come off 1:46:07.520 --> 1:46:09.639 to crass. You want to you want to give people 1:46:09.640 --> 1:46:12.719 a chance to talk. But but you always in radio 1:46:12.960 --> 1:46:16.439 have to be aware that there's there's somebody sitting in 1:46:16.479 --> 1:46:21.000 their home, they're driving in their car, they're they're listening 1:46:21.040 --> 1:46:24.200 to it on their phone on a train. You have 1:46:25.080 --> 1:46:27.320 it's say, it's an audience of one, and you have 1:46:27.360 --> 1:46:29.599 to keep them entertained. You cannot put people to sleep. 1:46:29.960 --> 1:46:32.639 And television is a little bit different television. The hardest 1:46:32.640 --> 1:46:36.759 thing I've had to learn about television is the visual 1:46:36.920 --> 1:46:39.000 is the most important thing. A lot of times I'll 1:46:39.080 --> 1:46:41.920 rush to a breaking story and if the if the 1:46:41.960 --> 1:46:46.320 network isn't ready with the graphics, you're talking to yourself. Uh, 1:46:46.360 --> 1:46:50.439 there's a there's a great story Clay about Ronald Reagan. Uh, 1:46:50.680 --> 1:46:53.320 CBS had done like a fourteen minute hit job on 1:46:53.400 --> 1:46:58.680 him during Iran Contra, and his PR guy called the 1:46:59.800 --> 1:47:04.040 the correspondent Leslie Stall afterwards and said, well, by the way, 1:47:04.040 --> 1:47:06.000 thanks so much. That was great. She said, what are 1:47:06.000 --> 1:47:08.120 you talking about? We just like killed your boss, she said. 1:47:08.720 --> 1:47:11.320 She said, nobody listened. He said, nobody listened to a word. 1:47:11.360 --> 1:47:13.280 You guys said. The graphics were great. You have great 1:47:13.600 --> 1:47:16.879 Mount Rushmore at Normandy. I mean, it was just beautiful. 1:47:16.880 --> 1:47:19.240 And that's the hardest thing I've had to learn is 1:47:19.240 --> 1:47:22.400 that if you're watching on television, um, you have to 1:47:22.680 --> 1:47:26.880 you the words are not quite as important. In fact, 1:47:26.960 --> 1:47:30.840 most people probably watch our show, or watch ESPN or 1:47:30.920 --> 1:47:34.840 most shows with the sound low. Uh. And and that 1:47:34.960 --> 1:47:37.639 that that's something that I may never quite grasp but 1:47:37.640 --> 1:47:40.639 but it is. And by the way, I've thought about 1:47:40.680 --> 1:47:42.920 this at some point later in my life to uh, 1:47:43.240 --> 1:47:45.960 to teach. I talked to various schools, and it's something 1:47:46.000 --> 1:47:48.479 that I am really interested in. But the thing that 1:47:48.479 --> 1:47:51.320 that baffles me the most with young people, and I say, 1:47:51.840 --> 1:47:55.200 is a lack of curiosity. I know you have it. 1:47:55.200 --> 1:47:58.400 It's driven your career through law, into journalism and the 1:47:58.560 --> 1:48:02.720 radio and now obvious very successfully into television. And I've 1:48:02.720 --> 1:48:04.679 tried to apply it as well. But too many people 1:48:04.760 --> 1:48:09.559 just are are satisfied with whatever they're told. Uh. They 1:48:09.600 --> 1:48:12.640 don't follow up, And I know I'm sounding like my 1:48:12.760 --> 1:48:18.000 grandfather or yours, but it continues to to literally baffle 1:48:18.080 --> 1:48:21.639 me about younger people. Uh. And maybe it's the times, 1:48:21.680 --> 1:48:25.479 maybe it's all the toys that we have, but you 1:48:25.520 --> 1:48:27.639 can never be satisfied with an answer. I don't think 1:48:28.360 --> 1:48:30.920 even in a two hour podcast. Has I know I 1:48:30.920 --> 1:48:33.200 said last question, but has there ever been a time 1:48:33.240 --> 1:48:36.840 where you have finished a program and thought to yourself, 1:48:36.880 --> 1:48:41.160 either one, I'm gonna get fired or two I need 1:48:41.160 --> 1:48:46.560 to apologize for something that I said on radio. Yeah. 1:48:46.200 --> 1:48:49.320 I have apologized before, because I think what what always 1:48:49.400 --> 1:48:51.680 upsets me the most is when I when I key 1:48:51.760 --> 1:48:54.920 off on a call or without really thinking it through 1:48:55.479 --> 1:48:57.040 and I've done an interview. I mean, rarely am I 1:48:57.080 --> 1:49:01.719 going to want to apologize to some uh suit I interview? Um. 1:49:01.760 --> 1:49:05.800 I have occasionally uh with a gun at my head, 1:49:06.640 --> 1:49:12.080 but uh most of the time, Uh, I have not. Uh. 1:49:12.120 --> 1:49:13.840 But yeah, I mean there are a lot of days 1:49:13.840 --> 1:49:16.000 you walk out. I mean, and I take it very personally. 1:49:16.000 --> 1:49:18.679 I mean, I I don't go go back go home 1:49:18.720 --> 1:49:20.920 and listen to the show or watch it. But I 1:49:21.240 --> 1:49:23.160 know when I've I've done a poor job. And I 1:49:23.200 --> 1:49:26.479 know when I've been ill prepared for something, and that 1:49:26.560 --> 1:49:30.280 probably upsets me more than anything else, Clay, to interview 1:49:30.360 --> 1:49:34.080 someone and to miss something. Uh. To me, the job 1:49:34.160 --> 1:49:37.080 of the host is, as you know better than anyone, 1:49:37.160 --> 1:49:39.320 is to try to make the person you're talking to 1:49:39.800 --> 1:49:43.840 as interesting as possible and to use whatever resources you have. 1:49:44.000 --> 1:49:46.800 And I think too often, uh we don't do that. 1:49:46.840 --> 1:49:50.040 But that that that that really drives me crazy. Uh 1:49:50.080 --> 1:49:53.960 to have a to have somebody that's really interesting or talented, uh, 1:49:54.160 --> 1:49:57.200 and not get that across, because too often people just 1:49:57.200 --> 1:50:00.000 don't want to say anything. I mean, how many interviews 1:50:00.000 --> 1:50:01.800 if you had with a d S or coaches or 1:50:02.000 --> 1:50:05.640 and they give you and that's why and and and 1:50:05.680 --> 1:50:07.280 I know they're not telling the truth. And and and that 1:50:07.400 --> 1:50:10.200 probably of all the things that that that drive me 1:50:10.439 --> 1:50:13.639 uh over the edge more than anything. It's it's being 1:50:13.680 --> 1:50:17.639 lied to, it's being deceived, Uh, it's being misled, it's 1:50:17.640 --> 1:50:19.960 being it's being told what I can say and what 1:50:20.080 --> 1:50:23.679 I can't say, what guests I can have on the show, 1:50:23.800 --> 1:50:26.559 and what guests I can I think you're I know 1:50:26.640 --> 1:50:31.000 we're leading into a sequel, but but but that that 1:50:31.800 --> 1:50:33.639 I think it's just it goes back to the very 1:50:33.680 --> 1:50:37.439 beginning of of how I was brought up with New 1:50:37.520 --> 1:50:41.599 Yorkers and how I pursued my career. That I just, 1:50:42.320 --> 1:50:44.640 I just I'm not sure. I don't I don't have 1:50:44.680 --> 1:50:47.360 to have the last word, but but I don't like 1:50:47.439 --> 1:50:49.360 being I don't like people dictating what we can do 1:50:49.400 --> 1:50:51.160 and can't do here. I think I think you are. 1:50:51.320 --> 1:50:54.519 My obligation every day is to the audience. You said 1:50:54.880 --> 1:50:56.720 when we started that your goal was to be at 1:50:56.760 --> 1:50:59.720 the New York Times by thirty. Do you feel like 1:50:59.760 --> 1:51:02.040 it's some way you met that goal with that New 1:51:02.120 --> 1:51:05.880 Yorker five thousand word profile that they did, because I mean, 1:51:06.120 --> 1:51:07.800 there are a lot of people who have written at 1:51:07.800 --> 1:51:11.040 the New York Times over the years, I don't think 1:51:11.040 --> 1:51:13.040 there are very many of them that have had a 1:51:13.080 --> 1:51:16.439 five thousand a word profile in The New Yorker. For 1:51:16.680 --> 1:51:20.200 that was you almost like a capstone on your career, 1:51:20.280 --> 1:51:22.160 even though you've got a lot of years left still 1:51:22.240 --> 1:51:25.080 to work. But that also feels like a fulfillment of 1:51:25.120 --> 1:51:29.960 that initial desire you had when you entered newspapers. It Uh, 1:51:30.160 --> 1:51:33.560 it was as much a game changer as anything that 1:51:33.600 --> 1:51:37.479 could possibly happen, because it led to ESPN. It led 1:51:37.520 --> 1:51:42.160 to a book. Uh, it led to a level of 1:51:42.160 --> 1:51:45.240 of awareness. When when when? When? When I got I 1:51:45.240 --> 1:51:47.160 got back that night and told my wife. She said, well, 1:51:47.200 --> 1:51:49.120 who's going to read that? I said, oh, I've really 1:51:49.520 --> 1:51:51.680 really about ten people in America. If they read it, 1:51:51.680 --> 1:51:53.720 I'm going to be very happy. Yes, And I think 1:51:53.760 --> 1:51:56.559 most of them did. I remember you tweeted the day 1:51:56.560 --> 1:51:58.479 it came out. You were one of the few people 1:51:58.520 --> 1:52:02.120 of my friends and colleagues who understood it. I mean, 1:52:02.120 --> 1:52:04.520 you knew exactly well. I was a New Yorker subscriber 1:52:04.560 --> 1:52:07.280 for a long time. I still am. I read those articles. 1:52:07.280 --> 1:52:09.360 I mean when they did a review of my newest book, 1:52:09.520 --> 1:52:11.559 I was like, wow, this is I mean, they did 1:52:11.560 --> 1:52:13.479 a couple of thousand words, mixing it in with a 1:52:13.479 --> 1:52:16.639 couple of other books. But I remember thinking, it's hard 1:52:16.680 --> 1:52:18.840 for me to feel like I've made it anymore. But 1:52:18.880 --> 1:52:21.679 when I read that piece for you, it's you said it, well, 1:52:22.160 --> 1:52:25.040 it's not only about how many people read it, it's 1:52:25.080 --> 1:52:27.680 about whether the right people read it right. And I 1:52:27.680 --> 1:52:30.400 think similarly on this podcast, a lot of people were 1:52:30.439 --> 1:52:32.880 starting off early. The amount of people I'm hearing who 1:52:32.880 --> 1:52:35.800 are listening that are quote unquote the right people. Um, 1:52:35.960 --> 1:52:38.439 you start with the right people, and then eventually everybody 1:52:38.439 --> 1:52:40.679 else knows about something too. And that's what I thought 1:52:40.680 --> 1:52:45.000 when I read the piece. No, it Uh, it was, 1:52:45.120 --> 1:52:48.000 it was. It was a stunning revelation to me to 1:52:48.120 --> 1:52:52.320 to to see and hear the reaction of certain people. Um, 1:52:52.720 --> 1:52:55.320 and you know, I don't know, Uh, you never know 1:52:55.360 --> 1:52:58.559 what's next. And I'm listening. I thought, my career has 1:52:58.560 --> 1:53:04.120 been over a couple of times, so I don't everyone says, well, 1:53:04.200 --> 1:53:05.639 what are you gonna do? How long are you gonna 1:53:05.680 --> 1:53:07.320 do it? I mean, these are these are questions I 1:53:07.360 --> 1:53:09.320 don't know the answer to. Uh. There are a couple 1:53:09.320 --> 1:53:13.479 of things I'm interested in doing, and I rarely say 1:53:13.560 --> 1:53:17.120 something that I'm about to say. Uh, I am working 1:53:17.120 --> 1:53:19.960 on something that's really interesting that it may become, it 1:53:20.000 --> 1:53:22.559 may be a big deal, it may disappear, it may 1:53:22.640 --> 1:53:27.120 vaporize in the night. Um. But I'm like you and 1:53:27.120 --> 1:53:30.200 and and and other people that we know. Well, I mean, 1:53:30.200 --> 1:53:32.960 there's always something that I'm I'm I'm working on next. 1:53:34.120 --> 1:53:38.320 I'm not overly satisfied with the status quo. UM, I 1:53:38.320 --> 1:53:41.320 probably should uh enjoy what I'm doing. But I read 1:53:41.360 --> 1:53:45.680 an interview with Stern and Jerry seinfeld once who, by 1:53:45.720 --> 1:53:48.240 the way, Jerry Seinfeldt turned down a hundred and ten 1:53:48.280 --> 1:53:52.720 billion dollars to do another year of Seinfeld and I 1:53:53.680 --> 1:53:55.719 and Stern said, I mean, of all people, Howard Stern 1:53:55.800 --> 1:53:58.400 said this to him, you don't seem like you're you're 1:53:58.520 --> 1:54:00.519 enjoying this for him, But you don't. You never seemed 1:54:00.520 --> 1:54:03.360 like you were enjoying doing Seinfeld and and and And 1:54:03.560 --> 1:54:08.080 Jerry said something that I will forever remember. He said, 1:54:08.120 --> 1:54:12.200 my job isn't too, isn't It's not for me to 1:54:12.439 --> 1:54:16.000 enjoy the acting. It's not for me to enjoy presenting. 1:54:16.479 --> 1:54:20.280 My job is to present something to an audience that 1:54:20.439 --> 1:54:23.200 enjoys it. And I feel the same way. Um, It's 1:54:23.240 --> 1:54:27.400 it's not about me, It's about entertaining. However, many people 1:54:27.439 --> 1:54:30.479 are watching or listening on a given moment, and I 1:54:30.520 --> 1:54:33.200 think that's what what too many people lose sight of. 1:54:33.320 --> 1:54:37.280 I mean, I'll have fun doing something else one day. Um. 1:54:37.800 --> 1:54:40.520 And and Clay, I enjoy this. I mean you you 1:54:40.680 --> 1:54:44.800 enjoy it, But it's it's not a picnic. Um. I 1:54:44.800 --> 1:54:47.400 wouldn't trade it for anything. But but the job and 1:54:47.480 --> 1:54:49.440 the goal is for other people and to enjoy it. 1:54:49.480 --> 1:54:52.960 I mean when someone calls up and says, you know 1:54:53.000 --> 1:54:56.200 what I'm I'm disabled and and this is what I 1:54:56.320 --> 1:55:00.200 look forward to every day, that is satisfying to me. Uh, 1:55:00.360 --> 1:55:03.160 not to have a you know, somebody you know slap 1:55:03.240 --> 1:55:06.120 me on the back and and say, you know whatever 1:55:06.480 --> 1:55:09.680 I mean I want to me. It's it's about it's 1:55:09.680 --> 1:55:13.520 about affecting people in in various ways. My wife told 1:55:13.560 --> 1:55:15.400 me this story. I once she had a patient, she's 1:55:15.400 --> 1:55:19.080 a physician. A lady came into her office and said, 1:55:19.800 --> 1:55:22.040 you're not gonna leave this, but your your your husband 1:55:22.080 --> 1:55:26.440 has really changed my life, she said. And my wife's 1:55:26.440 --> 1:55:30.120 fairly cynical. How in the world did my husband change 1:55:30.120 --> 1:55:33.600 your life? Well, she said, my mom died. Uh. And 1:55:33.680 --> 1:55:37.120 I'm the youngest of like, I have three older brothers, 1:55:37.120 --> 1:55:40.160 and I had nothing in common with my dad nothing uh. 1:55:40.200 --> 1:55:42.000 And I would go over to see him and we 1:55:42.360 --> 1:55:45.680 literally could not carry on a conversation. After my my 1:55:45.680 --> 1:55:48.480 my mom died. And one day he was in there, 1:55:48.640 --> 1:55:50.000 he was in the d he was in the kitchen 1:55:50.080 --> 1:55:53.440 listening to your husband's show. So I started listening to 1:55:53.520 --> 1:55:56.960 your husband's show. And she admitted as difficult as it was, Um, 1:55:57.680 --> 1:56:00.320 And when I would go back to see him every Sunday, 1:56:00.600 --> 1:56:02.640 we would talk about the callers, we would talk about 1:56:02.680 --> 1:56:04.480 the guests, and we would talk about the show, and 1:56:04.560 --> 1:56:07.880 suddenly we had a relationship. And that was That's more 1:56:07.920 --> 1:56:11.520 important to me, Clay, than than you know, winning the 1:56:11.560 --> 1:56:14.879 Herbie Kirby Award or or or you know, being a 1:56:14.920 --> 1:56:17.360 greeter at the SPS. I mean to me, that's really, 1:56:17.880 --> 1:56:20.360 in some ways what this is all about. It's a 1:56:20.440 --> 1:56:23.200 great final question. I've asked final questions a bunch of 1:56:23.240 --> 1:56:25.120 different ones, but I do want to mention your wife 1:56:25.160 --> 1:56:27.920 does she listen to the show, because I'll tell you this, 1:56:28.080 --> 1:56:30.360 my wife is terrified to listen to my show because 1:56:30.400 --> 1:56:32.640 she just is afraid every time I opened my mouth 1:56:32.640 --> 1:56:34.800 that I'm going to say something. Uh. You know that 1:56:34.920 --> 1:56:37.320 ends up costing him my job because I talked the 1:56:37.360 --> 1:56:39.520 same way on the show, which could be good as 1:56:39.560 --> 1:56:41.400 I do with her, I mean, there's not much of 1:56:41.440 --> 1:56:45.000 a filter. I'm curious what your wife would say if 1:56:45.040 --> 1:56:47.920 I asked her about her opinion of you. You know, 1:56:48.120 --> 1:56:52.840 I would prefer her not to listen UM, because I 1:56:52.880 --> 1:56:54.840 mean she will pick out Like your wife, the one 1:56:54.880 --> 1:56:57.280 thing you don't want to hear about one you know, 1:56:57.520 --> 1:57:01.040 the one phone or feud between Jim from Tuscaloosa and 1:57:01.080 --> 1:57:05.160 I man and so I mean, I I have finally 1:57:05.240 --> 1:57:08.920 learned though. When she does say something, I just thank 1:57:08.920 --> 1:57:13.840 her and keep my mouth shut because there's no upside 1:57:13.880 --> 1:57:17.640 and telling someone this is gonna sound familiar with a 1:57:17.720 --> 1:57:22.440 Vanderbilt medical degree, Um what what what's life all about? 1:57:22.560 --> 1:57:28.000 She's far smarter and far better well rounded than I am. 1:57:28.120 --> 1:57:30.120 So I just I just don't. I just don't discuss 1:57:30.160 --> 1:57:32.320 the show with her. If if I don't have to. Um, 1:57:32.560 --> 1:57:34.680 she said, she pays me a compliment, which is rare. 1:57:35.000 --> 1:57:38.080 I say thank you. If she says that's this dumbest 1:57:38.120 --> 1:57:40.520 interview or dumbest guest I've ever had, you've ever had, 1:57:40.560 --> 1:57:44.240 I say thank you. Let's move on. Well, that's good 1:57:44.240 --> 1:57:47.720 advice for life in general, certainly, marital Uh. Paul fine 1:57:47.760 --> 1:57:50.480 Bomb go follow him on Twitter at fine Bomb. His 1:57:50.520 --> 1:57:54.160 show airs two to six pm Eastern every single day 1:57:54.240 --> 1:57:56.960 on the SEC Network. You can hear it certainly on 1:57:57.040 --> 1:58:00.240 many of the stations as well across the Count three. 1:58:00.400 --> 1:58:03.720 Has been outstanding. I appreciate the time, Clay. It has 1:58:03.760 --> 1:58:06.360 been my pleasure thank you, and Uh, I don't remember 1:58:06.360 --> 1:58:10.879 when when two hours have flown by faster than this. Hopefully, 1:58:10.920 --> 1:58:13.080 hopefully our listeners agree, but I agree with you, it's 1:58:13.080 --> 1:58:16.000 been a really fun conversation. I hope people enjoyed it, uh, 1:58:16.000 --> 1:58:17.520 and I hope they learned a lot. But to me, 1:58:17.600 --> 1:58:19.760 it's gone by really fast. I hope they agree as well. 1:58:20.520 --> 1:58:22.600 You bet, Clay can't can't wait to see you soon. 1:58:22.680 --> 1:58:24.960 Thanks you, thank you so much. That's Paul find Balm. 1:58:25.040 --> 1:58:27.440 This has been the Wins and Losses podcast. I am 1:58:27.480 --> 1:58:29.880 Clay Travis. Go subscribe. If you enjoyed this one, you'll 1:58:29.880 --> 1:58:33.040 probably enjoy the other conversations as well. Thanks for listening, guys. 1:58:33.320 --> 1:58:35.920 Be sure to catch live editions about Kicked the Coverage 1:58:35.920 --> 1:58:39.680 with Clay Travis weekdays at six am Eastern three am Pacific.