1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:21,716 Speaker 1: Push Kim. I hate to do this, but I just 2 00:00:21,796 --> 00:00:24,076 Speaker 1: have to pick up right where we left off. In 3 00:00:24,116 --> 00:00:29,396 Speaker 1: our last episode, we were talking about insider trading, how 4 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:32,436 Speaker 1: it's become the one crime the sports gambling industry really 5 00:00:32,476 --> 00:00:35,556 Speaker 1: wants to police. But it's also the one thing that 6 00:00:35,636 --> 00:00:38,356 Speaker 1: every other guy on an American college campus wants to do. 7 00:00:39,076 --> 00:00:41,516 Speaker 1: As my producer LJ found out after just a few 8 00:00:41,556 --> 00:00:43,636 Speaker 1: hours at the University of Kansas. 9 00:00:44,796 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 2: I ask you for aniela intel on the player pot. 10 00:00:47,196 --> 00:00:51,356 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well he's driving there right now. He's on 11 00:00:51,396 --> 00:00:53,276 Speaker 3: the bus, so I'm gonna text him Layer and I'd 12 00:00:53,276 --> 00:00:54,316 Speaker 3: be like, what'sh I put money on. 13 00:00:56,116 --> 00:00:59,796 Speaker 1: Wandering around the integrity landscape these last six months, we 14 00:00:59,916 --> 00:01:02,476 Speaker 1: found that some huge number of Americans who are too 15 00:01:02,556 --> 00:01:05,716 Speaker 1: young to drink now gamble on sports. Yet no one 16 00:01:05,716 --> 00:01:08,636 Speaker 1: ever gets in trouble for taking their bets. What people 17 00:01:08,676 --> 00:01:11,596 Speaker 1: do get trouble for is trading on inside sports information. 18 00:01:12,516 --> 00:01:15,276 Speaker 1: The analogy, which seems obvious to some people is the 19 00:01:15,356 --> 00:01:18,316 Speaker 1: SEC ban on trading stocks when you have inside information. 20 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:21,596 Speaker 1: But even that is not an obvious type of crime. 21 00:01:22,876 --> 00:01:25,396 Speaker 4: You know, some kind of frauds clearly fall under thou 22 00:01:25,436 --> 00:01:29,156 Speaker 4: shalt not steal some kinds of frauds clearly fall under 23 00:01:29,156 --> 00:01:31,796 Speaker 4: thou shalt not bear false witness. But there really is 24 00:01:31,876 --> 00:01:36,796 Speaker 4: no commandment that says thou shalt not trade securities while 25 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 4: in possession of material non public information. 26 00:01:39,876 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 1: That's Dan Davies, once an economist at the Bank of England, 27 00:01:43,116 --> 00:01:46,396 Speaker 1: an analyst for a bunch of investment banks. He now 28 00:01:46,396 --> 00:01:49,996 Speaker 1: writes about financial fraud lying for money. His first book 29 00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:50,716 Speaker 1: was called. 30 00:01:51,036 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 4: Most people would consider that's like just the epitome of 31 00:01:54,836 --> 00:01:57,556 Speaker 4: doing good business. If you don't have more information, why 32 00:01:57,596 --> 00:02:01,636 Speaker 4: are you making this transaction? And it wasn't a crime 33 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:03,956 Speaker 4: in most of the world for most of the history 34 00:02:03,956 --> 00:02:07,476 Speaker 4: of stock markets. It became a crime in the USA 35 00:02:07,876 --> 00:02:11,396 Speaker 4: in the nineteen thirty after the Wall Street crash. 36 00:02:11,996 --> 00:02:14,596 Speaker 1: It's kind of odd, right that the financial markets are 37 00:02:14,636 --> 00:02:16,916 Speaker 1: the only place where you're vilified if you trade on 38 00:02:16,956 --> 00:02:19,636 Speaker 1: some piece of information not available to the general public. 39 00:02:20,396 --> 00:02:23,116 Speaker 1: Amazon can buy your property without telling you that they've 40 00:02:23,156 --> 00:02:26,036 Speaker 1: already acquired the rest of your city. But if Jeff 41 00:02:26,076 --> 00:02:29,356 Speaker 1: Bezos buys Amazon's stock because he knows Amazon has just 42 00:02:29,396 --> 00:02:32,636 Speaker 1: secretly bought an entire city really cheaply, he might go 43 00:02:32,676 --> 00:02:33,116 Speaker 1: to jail. 44 00:02:33,796 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 4: It's a decision that society has made to create this 45 00:02:37,876 --> 00:02:41,516 Speaker 4: crime on the basis of a tradeoff, and that tradeoff 46 00:02:41,636 --> 00:02:45,716 Speaker 4: is obviously that if you have inside to dealing rules 47 00:02:46,076 --> 00:02:48,676 Speaker 4: you make it look like a fair game, You're going 48 00:02:48,716 --> 00:02:52,396 Speaker 4: to attract more people into that game, and that in 49 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:54,996 Speaker 4: turn is going to attract more of the savings of 50 00:02:55,036 --> 00:02:58,756 Speaker 4: the middle class in to finance the industrial developments of 51 00:02:58,796 --> 00:03:00,316 Speaker 4: the capitalist will. 52 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:03,476 Speaker 1: So maybe insider trading laws make sense in the stock market, 53 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:05,556 Speaker 1: though I got to say that their main effect is 54 00:03:05,596 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 1: to trick a lot of people into thinking that the 55 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:10,276 Speaker 1: financial markets are more fairly police than they actually are. 56 00:03:10,996 --> 00:03:14,396 Speaker 1: But that's my point, not Dan's. Here's why I called 57 00:03:14,476 --> 00:03:17,396 Speaker 1: Dan up because his country is now trying to turn 58 00:03:17,436 --> 00:03:21,116 Speaker 1: the informal rules against insider trading in sports gambling into 59 00:03:21,316 --> 00:03:24,556 Speaker 1: actual laws, just like in the stock market. 60 00:03:25,236 --> 00:03:28,876 Speaker 4: It is being done, in my view, on the basis 61 00:03:28,916 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 4: of a very very shaky legal footing. The Gambling Commission 62 00:03:36,116 --> 00:03:40,756 Speaker 4: have taken it upon themselves to say that placing a 63 00:03:40,836 --> 00:03:45,916 Speaker 4: bet with material non public information is in principle cheating, 64 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:50,236 Speaker 4: and that they will investigate it with their own criminal powers. 65 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:54,876 Speaker 1: You're basically policing the market for who's benefit, Like who 66 00:03:54,956 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: benefits from raising it to the level of a crime. 67 00:03:58,876 --> 00:04:01,476 Speaker 4: I think that is completely the right question to ask, 68 00:04:01,916 --> 00:04:04,276 Speaker 4: because we know the trade off that we made with 69 00:04:04,356 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 4: securities markets, which is that we decided that we would 70 00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:11,436 Speaker 4: police their internal rules for them using the criminal law 71 00:04:11,796 --> 00:04:15,356 Speaker 4: because we want to attract everyone into the capital markets. 72 00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:17,996 Speaker 4: And I think it's a very good question to ask, 73 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:21,916 Speaker 4: what is this great benefit that the gambling industry provides 74 00:04:21,956 --> 00:04:25,036 Speaker 4: to society that we should do it, this huge favor 75 00:04:25,516 --> 00:04:29,396 Speaker 4: of letting it put people in actual grown up prison 76 00:04:29,716 --> 00:04:33,676 Speaker 4: in the worst cases, for the crime of knowing more 77 00:04:33,676 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 4: about a horse race than the book maker does. 78 00:04:36,276 --> 00:04:38,316 Speaker 1: And the answer to the question who benefits, it's the 79 00:04:38,356 --> 00:04:41,276 Speaker 1: book maker. I assume the book. 80 00:04:40,996 --> 00:04:45,636 Speaker 4: Makers are the concentrated interest. They're the people who pay 81 00:04:45,956 --> 00:04:49,956 Speaker 4: quite a lot of the bills, and so a lot 82 00:04:49,996 --> 00:04:53,956 Speaker 4: of these sports seem to be quite happy to bend 83 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:59,156 Speaker 4: over backwards to keep things nice and safe for the bookmakers, 84 00:04:59,676 --> 00:05:03,996 Speaker 4: to allow them effectively the kind of privileged position that 85 00:05:04,116 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 4: stock market specialists used to have in the nineteen sixties 86 00:05:07,396 --> 00:05:08,236 Speaker 4: and nineteen seventies. 87 00:05:09,196 --> 00:05:12,076 Speaker 1: Sports bookies hate insider trading for the same reason they 88 00:05:12,076 --> 00:05:15,836 Speaker 1: hate smart sports gamblers. They're in the business of maximizing 89 00:05:15,876 --> 00:05:20,276 Speaker 1: stupid sports bets and minimizing smart ones. They don't want 90 00:05:20,316 --> 00:05:22,196 Speaker 1: to take bets from people who know more than they do. 91 00:05:23,276 --> 00:05:26,676 Speaker 1: One way to avoid those bets is to criminalize the information. 92 00:05:34,756 --> 00:05:39,276 Speaker 1: I'm Michael Lewis and this is against the rulers. It's 93 00:05:39,276 --> 00:05:42,276 Speaker 1: still hard to tell how exactly sports gambling will play 94 00:05:42,276 --> 00:05:44,916 Speaker 1: out in the United States. It's still so new here. 95 00:05:45,636 --> 00:05:48,516 Speaker 1: But outside the United States there are places that are 96 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:51,436 Speaker 1: way ahead of us. They give us a glimpse of 97 00:05:51,476 --> 00:06:03,236 Speaker 1: our future, and it's not a pretty sight. The British 98 00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:05,996 Speaker 1: have allowed online sports gambling since two thousand and five. 99 00:06:06,756 --> 00:06:08,916 Speaker 1: Within a couple of years, sports betting in Britain had 100 00:06:08,916 --> 00:06:10,516 Speaker 1: gone from a thing you had to work to do 101 00:06:10,876 --> 00:06:13,476 Speaker 1: to a thing you had to work to avoid. As 102 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:17,156 Speaker 1: like this are everywhere football. 103 00:06:16,876 --> 00:06:21,196 Speaker 4: Black cop competitions, the relegation bottles, the dykes under the lights. 104 00:06:21,316 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 5: I absolutely love it. 105 00:06:25,956 --> 00:06:28,556 Speaker 1: You can see the effects of this gambling culture everywhere. 106 00:06:29,236 --> 00:06:33,756 Speaker 1: Just google gambler's anonymous meetings in London. The gambling industry 107 00:06:33,796 --> 00:06:36,596 Speaker 1: in Britain has acquired so much political clout that the 108 00:06:36,596 --> 00:06:39,516 Speaker 1: British government still thinks mostly in terms of policing the 109 00:06:39,556 --> 00:06:44,636 Speaker 1: gambler rather than policing the industry. But it's the Australians 110 00:06:44,676 --> 00:06:48,876 Speaker 1: who are way ahead of everyone, even the British. Australia 111 00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:52,196 Speaker 1: legalized sports gambling with few restrictions back in two thousand 112 00:06:52,236 --> 00:06:53,396 Speaker 1: and one. 113 00:06:54,036 --> 00:06:56,636 Speaker 6: Australians lose more per capita than any other country in 114 00:06:56,676 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 6: the world on gambling. 115 00:06:58,436 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 1: That's Charlie Lewis, journalists for the Australian news site Krichie. 116 00:07:02,596 --> 00:07:05,676 Speaker 1: Charlie was amazed to learn that twenty seven million Australians 117 00:07:05,996 --> 00:07:10,796 Speaker 1: were losing twenty four billion dollars a year gambling per capita. 118 00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:12,956 Speaker 1: That would be the equivalent of Americans blowing more than 119 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:17,116 Speaker 1: two hundred billion dollars a year. In Australia. Problem gambling 120 00:07:17,156 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 1: has become such a big issue that it was front 121 00:07:18,916 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: and center in the last election, which the Labor Party 122 00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:24,716 Speaker 1: won by promising to enact lots of restrictions on the 123 00:07:24,756 --> 00:07:25,916 Speaker 1: sports gambling industry. 124 00:07:26,716 --> 00:07:30,316 Speaker 6: There was a bipartisan process that unanimously concluded that there 125 00:07:30,316 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 6: ought to be a blanket ban on online gambling advertising 126 00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:36,956 Speaker 6: in Australia. The government had kind of sat on those 127 00:07:37,036 --> 00:07:41,036 Speaker 6: recommendations for over a year until recently announcing that they 128 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:43,356 Speaker 6: were going to do a much more water down version 129 00:07:43,436 --> 00:07:45,916 Speaker 6: of what that report was recommending. 130 00:07:46,076 --> 00:07:49,716 Speaker 1: Pole still showed that seventy percent of Australians won a 131 00:07:49,756 --> 00:07:53,996 Speaker 1: total ban on sports gambling ads. The major political parties 132 00:07:54,036 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 1: say they agree, but there's been no ban. The sports 133 00:07:57,836 --> 00:07:59,836 Speaker 1: gambling ads are still everywhere. 134 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:03,236 Speaker 2: Good I just chap fifty bucks on rice for don't 135 00:08:03,236 --> 00:08:03,916 Speaker 2: give me lucky. 136 00:08:03,756 --> 00:08:06,596 Speaker 5: Ni puller out one thing I love about you alses 137 00:08:06,676 --> 00:08:07,476 Speaker 5: you're all different. 138 00:08:07,596 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 2: And on the punt as mad as cuts. 139 00:08:14,076 --> 00:08:17,836 Speaker 1: Mad Is cutsnakes. You gotta love it. Anyway, Charlie set 140 00:08:17,876 --> 00:08:20,236 Speaker 1: out to understand why the ad ban was going nowhere. 141 00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:23,916 Speaker 1: What he found was a situation even worse than in 142 00:08:23,956 --> 00:08:27,716 Speaker 1: Great Britain. The sports gambling companies hadn't simply bought the 143 00:08:27,756 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 1: political process that bought the bulk of the Australian media 144 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:34,036 Speaker 1: too with ad money. 145 00:08:34,836 --> 00:08:39,316 Speaker 6: The real unity is from the Australian mainstream media because 146 00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 6: they rely on that money much more than they ever 147 00:08:41,036 --> 00:08:44,236 Speaker 6: used to. So they are of one voice opposing reform, 148 00:08:44,436 --> 00:08:46,716 Speaker 6: which is kind of interesting because that's also who pays 149 00:08:46,716 --> 00:08:48,116 Speaker 6: for journalism in this country. 150 00:08:49,156 --> 00:08:52,556 Speaker 1: It wasn't that the Australian media completely ignored the problems 151 00:08:52,556 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 1: that sports gambling caused, but Charlie found that a lot 152 00:08:56,156 --> 00:08:58,876 Speaker 1: of the Australian media had settled on a narrative that 153 00:08:59,036 --> 00:09:03,236 Speaker 1: was extremely convenient for the gambling industry. Yes, they report 154 00:09:03,276 --> 00:09:07,436 Speaker 1: on the bankruptcies, the ruined lives, the suicides, but their 155 00:09:07,476 --> 00:09:10,796 Speaker 1: reporting also implied that the industry bore is zero blame 156 00:09:10,876 --> 00:09:13,996 Speaker 1: for any of it because some people simply didn't know 157 00:09:14,036 --> 00:09:18,716 Speaker 1: how to gamble responsibly. Now we know that young males 158 00:09:18,796 --> 00:09:21,676 Speaker 1: like to gamble, and we know that they're vulnerable to 159 00:09:21,716 --> 00:09:26,516 Speaker 1: gambling problems. A society allows gambling companies to bombard young 160 00:09:26,556 --> 00:09:30,956 Speaker 1: males with ads and free offers to gamble and VIP status, 161 00:09:31,436 --> 00:09:34,156 Speaker 1: and then when vast numbers of young males get themselves 162 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:38,236 Speaker 1: in trouble, we all say, well, those young people really 163 00:09:38,276 --> 00:09:42,956 Speaker 1: shouldn't have done that. To Charlie, Lewis, down under this 164 00:09:43,076 --> 00:09:46,876 Speaker 1: frame felt off, so he dug deeper and found that 165 00:09:46,956 --> 00:09:51,076 Speaker 1: this whole blamed The gambler. Frame indeed had an origin story, 166 00:09:51,996 --> 00:09:57,396 Speaker 1: an American one, created by an American lawyer named Frank Farnkoff. 167 00:10:00,396 --> 00:10:03,076 Speaker 1: Frank Farnkoff grew up in Reno, but made his career 168 00:10:03,116 --> 00:10:06,236 Speaker 1: as a Washington lawyer and later became chairman of the RNC. 169 00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:11,556 Speaker 1: Back in the early nineties, Charlie Wrights, the Las Vegas casinos, 170 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 1: and the companies that made slot machines wanted to expand 171 00:10:14,596 --> 00:10:18,556 Speaker 1: their operations. But at the very same time they were 172 00:10:18,556 --> 00:10:21,196 Speaker 1: a US congressmen who were upset about the effects of 173 00:10:21,236 --> 00:10:25,276 Speaker 1: gambling and who were writing legislation to ban all forms 174 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:28,796 Speaker 1: of gambling, which would not only have stopped the spread, 175 00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:33,356 Speaker 1: but would have shut down Las Vegas too. It was 176 00:10:33,396 --> 00:10:35,836 Speaker 1: Frank who convinced the casino operators to get ahead of 177 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:39,116 Speaker 1: the conversation. He told them they needed to come together 178 00:10:39,276 --> 00:10:42,716 Speaker 1: around a strategy and the first step would be to 179 00:10:42,796 --> 00:10:45,516 Speaker 1: admit that gambling addiction is real. 180 00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:49,436 Speaker 7: And now that was not an easy sell. 181 00:10:50,116 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 1: That's Frank himself now the co chair of the Commission 182 00:10:53,676 --> 00:10:57,876 Speaker 1: on Presidential Debates. But back in the nineteen nineties, the 183 00:10:57,956 --> 00:11:01,196 Speaker 1: Vegas casino owners hired him to be president and CEO 184 00:11:01,876 --> 00:11:04,276 Speaker 1: of the New American Gaming Association. 185 00:11:05,076 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 7: The guys who were running the gaming industry of the 186 00:11:07,836 --> 00:11:11,916 Speaker 7: various companies didn't believe there was any problems with you know, 187 00:11:12,036 --> 00:11:16,356 Speaker 7: we responsible gaming. And when the first meetings, when I went, 188 00:11:16,596 --> 00:11:19,516 Speaker 7: I brought with me the picture of all the leaders 189 00:11:19,556 --> 00:11:23,236 Speaker 7: of the tobacco industry standing before Congress, raising their right hand, 190 00:11:23,276 --> 00:11:25,156 Speaker 7: saying that tobacco wasn't addictive. 191 00:11:25,796 --> 00:11:27,996 Speaker 1: Yes or no? Do you believe nicotine is not addictive? 192 00:11:28,836 --> 00:11:30,476 Speaker 1: I believe nicotine is not addictive. 193 00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:35,876 Speaker 6: Yet I believe that nicotine is not predictive. I believe 194 00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:37,636 Speaker 6: that nicotine is not addicted. 195 00:11:39,116 --> 00:11:41,836 Speaker 7: And I said to them, you know, I want you 196 00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 7: to picture this in your mind. If we don't do 197 00:11:43,956 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 7: something affirmatively which is in the public interest, the dealing 198 00:11:47,516 --> 00:11:50,396 Speaker 7: with we we know is a problem. No one had 199 00:11:50,436 --> 00:11:52,356 Speaker 7: any idea how deep the problem was. 200 00:11:53,876 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 1: The gambling industry wouldn't do what the tobacco industry did 201 00:11:57,316 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 1: and lie and tell people that its products never caused harm. Instead, 202 00:12:02,636 --> 00:12:05,036 Speaker 1: it would shift the focus away from the industry and 203 00:12:05,116 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: on to its customers. It would fund lots of research 204 00:12:08,516 --> 00:12:12,596 Speaker 1: about gambling addiction without ever having to do anything that 205 00:12:12,636 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 1: reduced the money they made from the attics. 206 00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:18,116 Speaker 6: The gambling industry is only really doing what every big 207 00:12:18,156 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 6: harmful industry does, which is fund research to try and 208 00:12:21,236 --> 00:12:22,596 Speaker 6: get their message out there. 209 00:12:23,516 --> 00:12:25,956 Speaker 1: That's the Australian journalist Charlie lewis again. 210 00:12:26,556 --> 00:12:28,276 Speaker 6: Certainly not to back of companies. And I don't think 211 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:31,756 Speaker 6: even fossil fuel companies were ever as successful as the 212 00:12:31,796 --> 00:12:35,436 Speaker 6: gambling industry has been in making that process kind of invisible, 213 00:12:35,636 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 6: making it something that people don't really know is happening. 214 00:12:38,996 --> 00:12:41,876 Speaker 1: We are all now just living in frank feign costs frame, 215 00:12:43,236 --> 00:12:46,236 Speaker 1: a frame that keeps people's attention on the person and 216 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:51,196 Speaker 1: off the situation, on individual weakness, and off an environment 217 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:55,756 Speaker 1: designed a profit from that weakness. In Australia, the regulatory 218 00:12:55,836 --> 00:12:59,516 Speaker 1: environment has fallen entirely under the control of the gambling industry. 219 00:13:00,756 --> 00:13:02,636 Speaker 1: But this is in a show about Australia. It's a 220 00:13:02,676 --> 00:13:06,636 Speaker 1: show about America and how this latest predatory industry is 221 00:13:06,796 --> 00:13:11,636 Speaker 1: likely to affect us. Happening in Australia seems bad, but 222 00:13:11,716 --> 00:13:15,236 Speaker 1: if the pattern holds, what will happen in America will 223 00:13:15,236 --> 00:13:31,676 Speaker 1: one day seem even worse. They are now a long 224 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: list of products and substances either banned, they're strictly controlled 225 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:38,076 Speaker 1: in other countries that were allowed to wreak havoc in 226 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:41,596 Speaker 1: the United States, whereupon lawyers have rushed in and made 227 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 1: a fortune by suing the relevant industry. And then everyone 228 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:48,396 Speaker 1: looks back and says, how did that happen? How did 229 00:13:48,436 --> 00:13:51,476 Speaker 1: those tobacco companies get away with doing that, or how 230 00:13:51,516 --> 00:13:53,996 Speaker 1: did opioids run wild for so long? 231 00:13:55,076 --> 00:13:58,836 Speaker 5: The drug is released in nineteen ninety six, and initially 232 00:13:58,876 --> 00:14:01,316 Speaker 5: there's this incredible reinforcement for them where they're getting these 233 00:14:01,396 --> 00:14:04,316 Speaker 5: letters from people, these amazing letters who say, you know, 234 00:14:04,356 --> 00:14:06,436 Speaker 5: I can pick up my grandkid for the first time 235 00:14:07,196 --> 00:14:08,876 Speaker 5: in years, I can go back to work. You've given 236 00:14:08,916 --> 00:14:09,796 Speaker 5: me my life back. 237 00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:14,836 Speaker 1: That's Patrick raden Keief, author of Empire of Pain, the 238 00:14:14,876 --> 00:14:18,396 Speaker 1: story of the Sackler family in Purdue Pharma, which back 239 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six came to market with a new 240 00:14:20,756 --> 00:14:22,796 Speaker 1: painkiller called oxy contin. 241 00:14:23,436 --> 00:14:27,556 Speaker 5: And the drug becomes a huge blockbuster. There's a big 242 00:14:27,596 --> 00:14:30,316 Speaker 5: moment where it edges out Viagra as the number one 243 00:14:30,356 --> 00:14:31,036 Speaker 5: drug of the day. 244 00:14:31,316 --> 00:14:34,116 Speaker 1: So it's released in ninety six, when it is the 245 00:14:34,116 --> 00:14:36,876 Speaker 1: first signs like if you were sitting there and you 246 00:14:36,916 --> 00:14:40,116 Speaker 1: were concerned, when would you have first noted this some 247 00:14:40,156 --> 00:14:40,916 Speaker 1: problems here? 248 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:45,956 Speaker 5: Really early, it's like almost within a year, really really early. 249 00:14:46,756 --> 00:14:51,956 Speaker 5: When they released oxy conton they sent out into the 250 00:14:51,996 --> 00:14:55,636 Speaker 5: field all across the country the biggest sales force that 251 00:14:55,676 --> 00:14:58,916 Speaker 5: had ever been put to work marketing. 252 00:14:58,636 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 1: A single drug. 253 00:14:59,996 --> 00:15:02,196 Speaker 5: The interesting thing about doing that is those are your 254 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:05,036 Speaker 5: canaries in the coal mine. You have this early warning system, 255 00:15:05,076 --> 00:15:06,756 Speaker 5: which is these people who are actually out there in 256 00:15:06,796 --> 00:15:11,956 Speaker 5: the communities. And so when you start getting doctors who say, well, 257 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 5: Jesus is interesting, I had a patient come back and 258 00:15:13,956 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 5: say the pain is coming back within eight hours. They've 259 00:15:17,396 --> 00:15:20,156 Speaker 5: started taking three pills every twenty four hours, not two pills. 260 00:15:20,636 --> 00:15:23,156 Speaker 5: You know, you get pharmacists saying people are starting to 261 00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:26,916 Speaker 5: break into my pharmacy and steal the OxyContin. The people 262 00:15:26,956 --> 00:15:29,636 Speaker 5: who are hearing about that are produced sales reps. 263 00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:33,836 Speaker 1: Now, obviously opioids aren't the same as sports gambling companies. 264 00:15:34,556 --> 00:15:37,516 Speaker 1: Sports gambling companies make you poor instead of making you dead. 265 00:15:37,956 --> 00:15:40,436 Speaker 1: Then again, if you're poor, you're more likely to die. 266 00:15:41,476 --> 00:15:43,476 Speaker 1: What opio It's taught us, or should have taught us, 267 00:15:43,676 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 1: was that when lots of money is being made, massive 268 00:15:46,236 --> 00:15:49,116 Speaker 1: public health problems confesster out in the open for years. 269 00:15:49,996 --> 00:15:52,236 Speaker 5: So it's not that people didn't notice in a public 270 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 5: way that there were problems with OxyContin, that it was 271 00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:58,636 Speaker 5: killing people, that people were addicted to it, and indeed 272 00:15:58,636 --> 00:16:01,556 Speaker 5: that the company had done a lot of bad things. 273 00:16:02,116 --> 00:16:05,276 Speaker 5: And there's this fascinating moment where there's a congressional hearing, 274 00:16:05,356 --> 00:16:10,356 Speaker 5: and Arlen Specter, the late Republican senator from Sylvania in 275 00:16:10,396 --> 00:16:12,956 Speaker 5: this hearing, has this moment in two thousand and seven. 276 00:16:13,996 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 8: I say fines with some frequency and think that they 277 00:16:17,316 --> 00:16:24,116 Speaker 8: are expensive licenses for criminal misconduct. I don't know whether 278 00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:27,556 Speaker 8: that applies in this case, but a jail sentence is 279 00:16:27,596 --> 00:16:30,556 Speaker 8: a deterred and a fine is not not a corporate 280 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:33,676 Speaker 8: fine in the context of the kind of profits which 281 00:16:33,676 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 8: you're involved here. 282 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:37,396 Speaker 5: And he says, are we not, on some level just 283 00:16:37,476 --> 00:16:41,196 Speaker 5: issuing them an expensive license to keep doing business? And 284 00:16:41,236 --> 00:16:43,676 Speaker 5: it's this kind of incredibly poignant moment to look back. 285 00:16:43,516 --> 00:16:48,076 Speaker 1: At the evil now seems so obvious. The Sackler family 286 00:16:48,076 --> 00:16:51,476 Speaker 1: made billions peddling a drug they knew was addictive, But 287 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:54,156 Speaker 1: the fact that it now seems so obvious should make 288 00:16:54,236 --> 00:16:58,236 Speaker 1: everyone a little uneasy, Like what is going on right 289 00:16:58,316 --> 00:17:01,996 Speaker 1: now that one day in the distant future will seem 290 00:17:02,076 --> 00:17:03,356 Speaker 1: so obviously evil. 291 00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 5: You're actually working in a very familiar kind of a 292 00:17:08,796 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 5: Marria moral vernacular, right, which is guns don't kill people. 293 00:17:13,636 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 5: People kill people, right, Like we have a deeply ingrained 294 00:17:17,716 --> 00:17:21,276 Speaker 5: libertarian sense that you can create something that will wreak 295 00:17:21,356 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 5: havoc and put it out in the world and get 296 00:17:23,316 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 5: very rich doing it. And as long as there's some 297 00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:29,516 Speaker 5: person downstream of you making some bad decision, you're kind 298 00:17:29,516 --> 00:17:30,156 Speaker 5: of off the hook. 299 00:17:30,356 --> 00:17:34,316 Speaker 1: Morally and legally. We lead the world in many things, 300 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 1: and one of those things is in our tendency to 301 00:17:37,596 --> 00:17:41,436 Speaker 1: see the person, rather than his situation, as the ultimate 302 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,796 Speaker 1: cause of some problem, even when the situation has been 303 00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:48,996 Speaker 1: designed to lead the person to his ruin, maybe especially 304 00:17:49,036 --> 00:17:52,396 Speaker 1: when an industry has designed the situation. So long as 305 00:17:52,396 --> 00:17:54,916 Speaker 1: that industry remains faceless. 306 00:17:55,756 --> 00:18:00,036 Speaker 5: Telling the story of how the wrong happened and how 307 00:18:00,076 --> 00:18:02,396 Speaker 5: it should be righted is a lot harder if there's 308 00:18:02,396 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 5: no characters in the story. 309 00:18:03,916 --> 00:18:08,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's an accident with driverless cars, exactly, exactly, 310 00:18:10,796 --> 00:18:17,996 Speaker 1: stay faceless, Blame the customer, buy media, and politicians. All 311 00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:20,236 Speaker 1: of that needs to be part of the sports gambling 312 00:18:20,276 --> 00:18:23,036 Speaker 1: industry's strategy if they want to stay out of trouble. 313 00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 1: After that, there's only one more thing they need to do, 314 00:18:28,156 --> 00:18:39,396 Speaker 1: create doubt. Lots of smart people recently have been noticing 315 00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:42,916 Speaker 1: the same addictive forces at work in American life. We've 316 00:18:42,956 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 1: interviewed some of them. For example, the anthropologist Natasha Shall, 317 00:18:46,556 --> 00:18:50,276 Speaker 1: who wrote a book called Addiction by Design, and whose 318 00:18:50,316 --> 00:18:53,956 Speaker 1: interview can be heard later this season. Another great writer 319 00:18:54,036 --> 00:18:57,436 Speaker 1: on this topic is the historian David Courtwright, author of 320 00:18:57,476 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 1: the Age of Addiction, How Bad Habits Became Big Business. 321 00:19:02,076 --> 00:19:04,956 Speaker 1: There are now shelves of books on how strong market 322 00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:10,396 Speaker 1: forces and weak regulations leave Americans wildly exposed to predatory industries. 323 00:19:11,196 --> 00:19:14,476 Speaker 1: But the grandmama of all these studies is Merchants of 324 00:19:14,556 --> 00:19:19,236 Speaker 1: Doubt by Eric Conway and Naomia Rescues. It's about the 325 00:19:19,276 --> 00:19:22,716 Speaker 1: way that predatory industries use bad science to obscure the 326 00:19:22,756 --> 00:19:26,316 Speaker 1: good science. It's trying to reveal harms to the wider society. 327 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 2: So I started just pulling on that thread and discovered 328 00:19:32,196 --> 00:19:34,636 Speaker 2: this whole universe of scientific work that nobody had really 329 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:35,236 Speaker 2: written about. 330 00:19:35,956 --> 00:19:39,636 Speaker 1: That's Naomia Reski's Harvard professor in the history of science. 331 00:19:40,876 --> 00:19:43,076 Speaker 1: Way back in two thousand and one, she was looking 332 00:19:43,156 --> 00:19:45,956 Speaker 1: into the question of how much difference it made who 333 00:19:45,996 --> 00:19:50,476 Speaker 1: paid for science, and she was looking specifically at oceanography, 334 00:19:51,076 --> 00:19:53,036 Speaker 1: a field that launched in a big way after World 335 00:19:53,076 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 1: War Two with money from the US Navy. These early 336 00:19:56,596 --> 00:20:01,196 Speaker 1: oceanographers discovered, among other things, that oceans were warming, that 337 00:20:01,276 --> 00:20:02,436 Speaker 1: the climate was changing. 338 00:20:03,316 --> 00:20:06,756 Speaker 2: So I wrote what became my most famous paper, the 339 00:20:06,756 --> 00:20:10,076 Speaker 2: Paper on the Scientific Consensus on Climate Change, saying, hey, guys, 340 00:20:10,196 --> 00:20:12,476 Speaker 2: there really is a consensus on this issue, and there 341 00:20:12,516 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 2: has been for a while now. And I started getting 342 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:17,396 Speaker 2: hate mail and threatening phone calls. 343 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:22,436 Speaker 1: Naomi soon found herself under systematic attack from a machine 344 00:20:22,556 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 1: she didn't know existed, a machine built to deny climate 345 00:20:26,716 --> 00:20:30,836 Speaker 1: change and paid for by the fossil fuel industry, a 346 00:20:30,996 --> 00:20:35,476 Speaker 1: very American machine that happens to employ scientists. She decided 347 00:20:35,516 --> 00:20:38,796 Speaker 1: to study the machine and others like it. I want 348 00:20:38,796 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 1: to know the playbook, so I'm asking her to play 349 00:20:41,396 --> 00:20:45,436 Speaker 1: a game with me. It's called Devil's Advocate. Naomi hasn't 350 00:20:45,436 --> 00:20:48,156 Speaker 1: paid much attention to sports gambling, but it doesn't matter 351 00:20:48,716 --> 00:20:52,196 Speaker 1: because she understands the big picture, sort of like a 352 00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:57,156 Speaker 1: talented consultant to Hell Incorporated. I would turn you into 353 00:20:57,196 --> 00:21:00,636 Speaker 1: an advisor to the forces of darkness. How do you 354 00:21:00,796 --> 00:21:04,076 Speaker 1: tell them what they do to combat what's coming? 355 00:21:05,356 --> 00:21:05,716 Speaker 4: Great? 356 00:21:06,036 --> 00:21:08,396 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I charge a lot of money 357 00:21:08,436 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 2: for this. I just want to be clear up, friends, 358 00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:14,076 Speaker 2: this is not a pro bono operation. But what we 359 00:21:14,116 --> 00:21:16,356 Speaker 2: need to do is situate you as an honest business 360 00:21:16,596 --> 00:21:19,276 Speaker 2: you're good guys. Just giving people an opportunity to do 361 00:21:19,316 --> 00:21:21,596 Speaker 2: something that they enjoy. This is a form of entertainment. 362 00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 2: It's fun, it's enjoyable. People love professional sports, and people 363 00:21:26,036 --> 00:21:30,236 Speaker 2: enjoy gambling on professional sports. Now, we recognize that for 364 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:33,356 Speaker 2: some people it can be a problem, but that's relatively minor. 365 00:21:33,796 --> 00:21:36,676 Speaker 2: What you will do is promote the notion of responsible gambling, 366 00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:41,316 Speaker 2: that this is an adult activity, adults can decide for themselves, 367 00:21:41,316 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 2: and for the vast majority of people it's perfectly safe. 368 00:21:44,796 --> 00:21:47,636 Speaker 1: Now vast majority might be too strong. I mean, the 369 00:21:47,676 --> 00:21:50,916 Speaker 1: respected medical journal The Lancet just published a bunch of 370 00:21:50,956 --> 00:21:55,476 Speaker 1: scary scientific findings. For example, one in six adolescents who 371 00:21:55,476 --> 00:21:59,516 Speaker 1: gamble on sports develop a problem. That sort of science 372 00:21:59,636 --> 00:22:01,716 Speaker 1: could screw up your business if you're running a sports 373 00:22:01,756 --> 00:22:04,316 Speaker 1: gambling app. That's why you need Naomi. 374 00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:07,876 Speaker 2: You're going to cast doubt on that science. You're going 375 00:22:07,916 --> 00:22:11,516 Speaker 2: to say it's unsettled, we don't know, the methodology is suspect. 376 00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:12,916 Speaker 2: You're going to come up with a whole set of 377 00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:14,956 Speaker 2: strategies and I'm going to help you with that. You 378 00:22:14,996 --> 00:22:19,596 Speaker 2: will find credible researchers at credible universities, including my own Harvard, 379 00:22:19,956 --> 00:22:23,276 Speaker 2: places like Harvard, Stanford, University of Chicago, and you will 380 00:22:23,316 --> 00:22:26,836 Speaker 2: find scientists who are willing to do research that cast 381 00:22:26,916 --> 00:22:29,956 Speaker 2: out on the mainstream view that this is harmful. Once 382 00:22:30,036 --> 00:22:32,076 Speaker 2: you have that research in place, then you will be 383 00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 2: able to say in public that there's no scientific consensus 384 00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:38,916 Speaker 2: on the harms of this activity, and therefore that there's 385 00:22:38,956 --> 00:22:41,516 Speaker 2: no reason for the government to regulate it or control 386 00:22:41,596 --> 00:22:42,356 Speaker 2: it in any way. 387 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:46,836 Speaker 1: And you think this will be effective, not think. 388 00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:49,116 Speaker 2: I know it will be effective because we've done it before. 389 00:22:49,796 --> 00:22:53,236 Speaker 2: I can show you many books, many articles, many examples. 390 00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:55,156 Speaker 2: I can show you examples of court cases that we 391 00:22:55,276 --> 00:22:58,196 Speaker 2: have won because we cast out on the science. 392 00:22:58,596 --> 00:23:01,676 Speaker 1: And what other industries should I look to as models 393 00:23:01,676 --> 00:23:04,556 Speaker 1: from my own, Like if I want to see who's 394 00:23:04,556 --> 00:23:06,876 Speaker 1: done this, well, who's like state of the art? 395 00:23:07,276 --> 00:23:11,716 Speaker 2: Well, the textbook case is tobacco. We've known that tobacco 396 00:23:11,796 --> 00:23:14,356 Speaker 2: was harmful since the nineteen thirties. We've known since the 397 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:19,116 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties the tobacco caused cancer, emphysema, bronchitis, heart disease. 398 00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:22,676 Speaker 2: But tobacco is still legal everywhere in the world. Millions 399 00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:26,556 Speaker 2: of people still smoke, and even in the United States, 400 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:30,356 Speaker 2: where significant controls were placed on tobacco. From the nineteen 401 00:23:30,436 --> 00:23:35,676 Speaker 2: nineties onwards, we delayed. We effectively delayed tobacco regulation for 402 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:37,156 Speaker 2: the better part of half a century. 403 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:41,116 Speaker 1: And So if I don't take your advice, if I like, 404 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:44,236 Speaker 1: just let the science pile up. The gambling addiction is 405 00:23:44,276 --> 00:23:47,516 Speaker 1: growing because of legalized force betting. What's going to happen 406 00:23:47,596 --> 00:23:51,036 Speaker 1: to me? If I try to just stay out of this, well. 407 00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 2: Your business will be destroyed because the scientific evidence will 408 00:23:54,236 --> 00:23:57,196 Speaker 2: make it clear that this is massively damaging. There will 409 00:23:57,236 --> 00:24:02,316 Speaker 2: be public outcry. There will be parents, mothers, the spouses 410 00:24:02,396 --> 00:24:05,156 Speaker 2: of people who have been bankrupted by your industry. There 411 00:24:05,196 --> 00:24:09,796 Speaker 2: will be teenagers who committed suicide after being incrupted or 412 00:24:09,796 --> 00:24:12,756 Speaker 2: having their lives destroyed by gambling addiction. You will be 413 00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 2: hauled into court, you will face thousands of lawsuits. You'll 414 00:24:17,956 --> 00:24:23,036 Speaker 2: face both personal injury lawsuits, class action lawsuits, and possibly 415 00:24:23,076 --> 00:24:26,316 Speaker 2: state and federal prosecution. And your industry will be destroyed. 416 00:24:26,556 --> 00:24:28,396 Speaker 2: So this is a matter of life and death for 417 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:29,116 Speaker 2: your industry. 418 00:24:29,476 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 1: Sorry, don't have any choice. That's the big point here, 419 00:24:35,316 --> 00:24:38,356 Speaker 1: the inevitability of what the sports gambling industry must do 420 00:24:39,356 --> 00:24:43,436 Speaker 1: if it wants to survive in its current most profitable form. 421 00:24:43,676 --> 00:24:45,796 Speaker 1: The first thing it must do is figure out the 422 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:50,116 Speaker 1: best scientists to buy Our Devil's advocate isn't worried about that. 423 00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:54,436 Speaker 2: We can identify three different types of scientists who you 424 00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:55,596 Speaker 2: might be able to find help you. 425 00:24:56,596 --> 00:24:58,996 Speaker 1: Type number one is the shill the hacks who show 426 00:24:59,076 --> 00:25:01,916 Speaker 1: up every time some predatory new industry needs help, but 427 00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:04,596 Speaker 1: they aren't all that useful because of their past association 428 00:25:04,716 --> 00:25:07,716 Speaker 1: with Big Tobacco or Purdue Farmer or whoever. 429 00:25:09,116 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 2: That is, if we can find someone who's a bit 430 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:13,756 Speaker 2: of a true believer, and we do that in two ways. 431 00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:17,956 Speaker 2: A person could be a true scientific believer, and that 432 00:25:18,196 --> 00:25:23,916 Speaker 2: happens when for some reason someone doesn't accept the science, 433 00:25:23,916 --> 00:25:26,676 Speaker 2: and it might be a legitimate reason. We can find 434 00:25:26,716 --> 00:25:29,596 Speaker 2: those people and they may be willing to accept funding 435 00:25:29,716 --> 00:25:32,556 Speaker 2: from us for their research because this is the research 436 00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:35,396 Speaker 2: they want to do independently, so we can make common 437 00:25:35,436 --> 00:25:36,476 Speaker 2: calls with those people. 438 00:25:37,756 --> 00:25:40,876 Speaker 1: Yes, we can get the science we pay for. We 439 00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:44,116 Speaker 1: can buy the science we need, but in the end 440 00:25:44,436 --> 00:25:47,476 Speaker 1: we might not need to pay that much because this 441 00:25:47,516 --> 00:25:51,036 Speaker 1: is America, baby Land of the Free, which means, among 442 00:25:51,076 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 1: other things, being free from science. 443 00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:56,476 Speaker 2: The other people we can make common calls with our 444 00:25:56,556 --> 00:26:01,116 Speaker 2: ideological fellow travelers, people who believe in the free market 445 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:05,236 Speaker 2: system on principle, who don't believe in government regulation. I 446 00:26:05,236 --> 00:26:07,836 Speaker 2: can assure you there are lots of them, people who 447 00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:12,276 Speaker 2: are opposed to govern regulation on principle, and they will 448 00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:14,636 Speaker 2: support us, and they will do this work because they 449 00:26:14,676 --> 00:26:18,196 Speaker 2: don't want to see your industry regulated. And those are 450 00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:20,156 Speaker 2: the best. Those are the ones we want most of 451 00:26:20,156 --> 00:26:23,236 Speaker 2: all because they are they're true believers, but they're not 452 00:26:23,356 --> 00:26:26,556 Speaker 2: industry shills. And that makes them perfect to present when 453 00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:28,516 Speaker 2: we go to the New York Times or the Washington 454 00:26:28,596 --> 00:26:30,796 Speaker 2: Post with our side of the story. 455 00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:33,996 Speaker 1: If muddying the waters is actually going to cause so 456 00:26:34,116 --> 00:26:37,796 Speaker 1: much damage, to actual damage in the society, how do 457 00:26:37,876 --> 00:26:41,476 Speaker 1: these people who are going to help us sort of 458 00:26:41,476 --> 00:26:45,516 Speaker 1: defend themselves from I mean, why are their institutions even 459 00:26:45,516 --> 00:26:47,516 Speaker 1: put up with them? I would have thought they would 460 00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:50,276 Speaker 1: be discredited just by joining forces with us. 461 00:26:51,156 --> 00:26:55,516 Speaker 2: Well, universities are very weak, and the remarkable thing about 462 00:26:55,596 --> 00:26:59,556 Speaker 2: universities is how easy it is to buy them. 463 00:26:59,676 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 1: Is it sufficient just to muddy the waters in scientific research? 464 00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:05,116 Speaker 1: That's all we need to do? 465 00:27:05,996 --> 00:27:08,916 Speaker 2: Yes, that's the beauty of what we do. You don't 466 00:27:08,956 --> 00:27:11,236 Speaker 2: need to prove that what you do is safe or good, 467 00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:13,636 Speaker 2: or right or moral. All you have to do is 468 00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:16,476 Speaker 2: prove that we don't know. Because if people think the 469 00:27:16,516 --> 00:27:20,156 Speaker 2: science is unsettled, then they will think it's premature for 470 00:27:20,196 --> 00:27:21,436 Speaker 2: the government to get involved. 471 00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:24,716 Speaker 1: So the lesson to draw from that is, don't waiver, 472 00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:28,436 Speaker 1: don't show any weakness. As long as I don't flinch, 473 00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 1: I'm more likely to be the tobacco industry than I 474 00:27:31,196 --> 00:27:34,476 Speaker 1: am the ozone whole industry. Correct, Right, So sports, if 475 00:27:34,476 --> 00:27:37,716 Speaker 1: I'm my sports gambling company, just has to be just 476 00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:39,836 Speaker 1: consistent in the messaging that we don't know. 477 00:27:40,236 --> 00:27:42,476 Speaker 2: Correct, do not flinch, Do not. 478 00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:47,756 Speaker 1: Flinch, and I don't think they'll flinch. Too many interests 479 00:27:47,796 --> 00:27:51,796 Speaker 1: are aligned. The sports leagues all see gambling as their future. 480 00:27:53,036 --> 00:27:55,676 Speaker 1: The tax revenue for states isn't big yet, but it's 481 00:27:55,756 --> 00:28:00,756 Speaker 1: new revenue, and new revenue is hard to find. I 482 00:28:00,796 --> 00:28:05,036 Speaker 1: think this is what's coming. Lots more people getting into trouble, 483 00:28:05,636 --> 00:28:11,836 Speaker 1: lots more ruin and anger and pity. Because your society 484 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:15,676 Speaker 1: will not defend you against this particular threat, not for 485 00:28:15,716 --> 00:28:21,396 Speaker 1: a very long time. You'll need to defend yourself, or 486 00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:25,716 Speaker 1: more likely, the young men in your life, and we're 487 00:28:25,716 --> 00:28:29,596 Speaker 1: going to tell you how in our next episode. 488 00:28:30,916 --> 00:28:33,196 Speaker 3: So I'm not family dinner in Paris at the Olympics, 489 00:28:33,356 --> 00:28:38,156 Speaker 3: and I made a bet i'n't an event. I didn't 490 00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:42,516 Speaker 3: tell my dad about it, and the dopamine is filling 491 00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:46,236 Speaker 3: my brain right now, I can smell the money. 492 00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:52,956 Speaker 1: Against the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael 493 00:28:52,996 --> 00:28:55,996 Speaker 1: Lewis and produced by Lydia gene Kott, Catherine Gerardeau, and 494 00:28:56,076 --> 00:29:00,116 Speaker 1: Ariela Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is 495 00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:03,996 Speaker 1: Jake Krski. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and 496 00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:07,876 Speaker 1: John Evans of stell Wagon Cinfinett. Our fact checker is 497 00:29:07,956 --> 00:29:12,476 Speaker 1: Lauren Vespoli. Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. 498 00:29:13,476 --> 00:29:17,276 Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, 499 00:29:17,676 --> 00:29:21,996 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, And if 500 00:29:22,036 --> 00:29:24,636 Speaker 1: you'd like to listen to ad free and learn about 501 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:27,716 Speaker 1: other exclusive offerings, don't forget to sign up for a 502 00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:32,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin dot Fm, slash Plus or 503 00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:35,356 Speaker 1: on our Apple show page. 504 00:29:37,196 --> 00:29:39,036 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm a little scared now. This could be taken 505 00:29:39,076 --> 00:29:41,396 Speaker 2: out of context and people will think I've gone over 506 00:29:41,436 --> 00:29:42,836 Speaker 2: the dark side. 507 00:29:43,196 --> 00:29:44,836 Speaker 1: Oh no, that was just the best. 508 00:29:44,876 --> 00:29:46,956 Speaker 2: Okay, I'll share another secret. You know, people always say, like, 509 00:29:46,956 --> 00:29:49,236 Speaker 2: if you could be reincarnated as anything in the world, 510 00:29:49,316 --> 00:29:51,036 Speaker 2: I would like to come back as a stand up 511 00:29:51,036 --> 00:29:53,796 Speaker 2: comic because I don't think anybody gives people more pleasure.