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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Hello, my friends, coming to

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Speaker 1: you a little bit different today, actually in a hotel

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Speaker 1: room in Los Angeles, getting ready to do an episode

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Speaker 1: of Doctor Phil. We need to talk about the affidavit today.

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Speaker 1: Talk about some of the forensic aspects here, talk about

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Speaker 1: what the police might be looking for, what they might have,

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Speaker 1: and what is yet to be uncovered. I'm Joseph Scott

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Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Bags. Guys. I have been

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Speaker 1: on more media outlets than I can count over the

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Speaker 1: past I don't know, six weeks. I am so incredibly

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Speaker 1: grateful that I have got my friend, who I consider

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Speaker 1: one of my best friends in the world, Jackie Howard,

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Speaker 1: the executive producer for Nancy Grace's Crime Stories. Jackie is

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Speaker 1: joining me right now. She's in her studio. I'm here

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Speaker 1: in La Jackie. Wow, do we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: information to go through? I don't know. I don't know

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Speaker 1: that I actually thought that we would get this much

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Speaker 1: out of this nineteen page document that dropped, but it

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Speaker 1: landed in our laps, and boy, is it really causing

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Speaker 1: a lot of people to stop and think and reconsider

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Speaker 1: a lot of positions. I think it's something that you

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Speaker 1: and I should have a chat about today. What do

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Speaker 1: you think? Well, I think that you started out with

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Speaker 1: some wonderful browning points there, Joe. So thanks, But yes,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of information to unfold. The first thing

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about, though, is how much do

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Speaker 1: you think that the police learned that was not included

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Speaker 1: in what was released? Well, I think you have to

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Speaker 1: start off at the baseline. You know, they only require

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Speaker 1: as much as is needed to get this thing before

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Speaker 1: a judge to draw up and arrest warrant. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: they're they're not They are not revealing everything that they have.

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Speaker 1: Trust me, this is only the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 1: And boy, what a volume of information that they have

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Speaker 1: presented us with. We've got everything from DNA, We've got

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Speaker 1: we've got pings relative to the movement of Brian Coberger

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Speaker 1: and his cell phone. We've got CCTV footage. The list

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Speaker 1: goes on and on. We've got trace evidence. You know

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Speaker 1: when you think about footprints and all of these sorts

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Speaker 1: of things that have that have come to light, and

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Speaker 1: probably for me what is most defining is we've sheath, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: We've got a knife sheath. If memory serves me right.

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Speaker 1: You called that saying if they can find that sheath,

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Speaker 1: they're set with DNA, and you obviously were right. So

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Speaker 1: the DNA that was found was found one spot on

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Speaker 1: that knife sheath. It was akbar as we know I've

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Speaker 1: been talking about for quite some time now, but the

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Speaker 1: sheath DNA was found in one spot on the clip,

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Speaker 1: the snap clip. I'm wondering, do we know where that

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Speaker 1: DNA came from? Was it blood DNA or is it

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Speaker 1: just skin cell DNA? Hard to say. It truly is

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Speaker 1: hard to say, and we don't have enough in from

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Speaker 1: We do know that there is a specific linkage to

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Speaker 1: the suspect, and that's important, at least at this juncture.

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Speaker 1: We will find out more what the sourcing of that

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Speaker 1: DNA is. There are many people that have openly opined

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Speaker 1: that this is probably going to be touched DNA, and

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Speaker 1: we've talked about touch DNA before on bodybacks. But just

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Speaker 1: kind of revisit this very very briefly. We sluf thousands

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Speaker 1: and thousands of skin cells, and the reason you sluft

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Speaker 1: them is that they're dead and so the DNA strand

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Speaker 1: or that it's just a partial of a strand that's

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Speaker 1: contained within what's referred to as touch DNA. So when

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Speaker 1: you find that bit of DNA, you have to go

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Speaker 1: back into lab and kind of reconstruct a DNA. But

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Speaker 1: it was sufficient enough to the task that when they

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Speaker 1: did recover the DNA, they were able to develop a

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Speaker 1: profile that eventually, you know, within I don't know ninety

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Speaker 1: nine point nine nine nine eight, I think percentage points

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Speaker 1: is likely hel and that's big. But yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: that gives us an idea that he actually had contact.

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Speaker 1: He had physical contact with a sheath. Some people say, ah, well,

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Speaker 1: you know it doesn't matter. That could come from anywhere. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's fine. Yeah, I'll give you that. It could. It could.

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Speaker 1: He could have picked it up. I've heard some people

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Speaker 1: say he could have picked it up at a knife

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Speaker 1: and gun show and just handle the thing. And they're

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Speaker 1: calling it a button snap is actually what they're calling it.

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Speaker 1: And then he maybe he actuated the button snap, flicking

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Speaker 1: it back and forth, just said Okay, that's a starting spot,

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Speaker 1: that's not the ending spot, okay, and that's important here. Well,

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Speaker 1: that was my question because let me let me jump

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Speaker 1: in on it. That was my question. If this knife

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Speaker 1: sheath belonged to Brian Hoberger. Wouldn't they have found his

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Speaker 1: DNA on more spots than just that clip? Possibly, But

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Speaker 1: could he have worn gloves and taking those gloves off,

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Speaker 1: or could he have manipulated that knife sheath prior to

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Speaker 1: putting gloves on, wipe down the rest of the knife sheath,

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Speaker 1: but forgot to wipe off that specific area. Do you

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Speaker 1: see there's so many there's so many possibilities here that

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Speaker 1: we don't know the dynamic of it. We don't know

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Speaker 1: how much he's handled the scene. We don't know if

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Speaker 1: the sheath is new, if this is something he just

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Speaker 1: went out and picked up and bought. Why isn't there

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Speaker 1: other people's DNA on the scene. Maybe there are unknowns

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Speaker 1: on here. We never know at this point because they

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Speaker 1: haven't given us that information. You know, you have to

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Speaker 1: figure if he let's just say he went to a

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Speaker 1: stall at a gun show and he bought this from somebody. Well,

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Speaker 1: just think about the person that was selling it to him,

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Speaker 1: had to handle the thing and would hand it over

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Speaker 1: to him, would have manipulated it in some way. Well,

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Speaker 1: they don't say anything about unknowns that might be on

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Speaker 1: the exterior of the sheath. They only talk about that

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Speaker 1: one linkage that goes back to the accused that I

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Speaker 1: think that that's significant here. And again, we don't know

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Speaker 1: what the sourcing of the DNA is. You know, we

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Speaker 1: I'd mentioned touch DNA. You know, you can get DNA

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Speaker 1: that derives from you know, a multiple multiple sources. You know,

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Speaker 1: we can have sweat, you can get saliva, you can

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Speaker 1: get blood among other things you know that emanate from

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Speaker 1: our body essentially, and so we don't know specifically what

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Speaker 1: the source is at this particular time. And I think

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Speaker 1: another big question is is it possible that there might

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Speaker 1: be blood on the sheath? Is it possible? Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: it is possible that there could be blood, and it

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Speaker 1: might not necessarily be his blood, the accused. It might

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Speaker 1: be the victim's blood because it was laying there in

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Speaker 1: the bed. It wasn't laying on the floor, according to

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Speaker 1: what they're saying. It was laying there in the bed,

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Speaker 1: So that that's kind of interesting as well. Was there

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Speaker 1: any other kind of answer evidence that was found on

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Speaker 1: that sheath from any of the victims into bed now, hair,

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Speaker 1: any kind of body fluids from them, including blood, anything

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Speaker 1: that might be linkage to tie that back. It's not

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Speaker 1: just one person that you're considering when you're looking at

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Speaker 1: unknown sample. You consider everybody that's kind of in the

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Speaker 1: orbit of this environment at this particular time, and all

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Speaker 1: of these are going to be key. They will develop

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Speaker 1: profiles on all of these people moving forward. They're also

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Speaker 1: going to talk about anybody that may have handled this

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Speaker 1: sheath prior to Coburger having purchased it, if it was

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Speaker 1: a recent purchase, for instance, and they will develop those

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Speaker 1: as well if they find those unknown sources, and they'll

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Speaker 1: try to track those down as well. Again, what's the

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Speaker 1: beauty of this, Jackie is the fact that if you

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Speaker 1: have all of these other people that have touched it,

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Speaker 1: it's not just a matter of him physically touching the

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Speaker 1: knife and it being there at the scene. If you

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Speaker 1: have unknown DNA that you can tie back to other

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Speaker 1: people that are in his peripheral past, you can kind

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Speaker 1: of track the movement of that knife through time. You know,

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Speaker 1: if he went to purchase this thing, you know you

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Speaker 1: can find it famously. You know, there's been a number

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Speaker 1: of cases, for instance, involving sexual assault, where there be

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Speaker 1: a pair of underwear and you will actually find touch

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Speaker 1: DNA on the surface of a package of a previously

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Speaker 1: packaged pair of underwear that was packaged in maybe Southeast

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Speaker 1: Asia somewhere, and you'll find somebody's DNA on it that

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Speaker 1: handled it in a factory. Just let that sink in

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Speaker 1: just for a second. So the possibilities here are kind

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Speaker 1: of mind blowing when you think about it. What is

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Speaker 1: the volume of DNA that we're talking about here, and

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Speaker 1: how much would have been needed to match up with

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Speaker 1: the evidence taken from his Pennsylvania home. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: that that evidence from the Pennsylvania home is probably going

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Speaker 1: to be very rich if you consider that. Let's just

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Speaker 1: think about it. If you're talking about napkins, if you're

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Speaker 1: talking about like cups that he may have placed to

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Speaker 1: his lips, you know, anything that would be an intimate

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Speaker 1: contact with him. And when you think about a trash

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Speaker 1: bag and how we discard things, you know, in trashbags,

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Speaker 1: we're throwing stuff away and it's all kind of getting

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Speaker 1: jumbled up in there. There will be quite a number

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Speaker 1: of things that will come back to him. Certainly, certainly

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Speaker 1: there will be things in there that will come back

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Speaker 1: to his familial grouping. And again that's significant, right if

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Speaker 1: you can tie that one bit of DNA that they

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Speaker 1: found on this button snap back to this home all

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Speaker 1: the way over two thousand miles away in Pennsylvania, in Poconos. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's a that's a big piece of circumstantial slash,

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Speaker 1: physical evidence that you have there. If you're going to

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Speaker 1: move forward with this and go to court with it,

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Speaker 1: you know, how how can you explain that away? And

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Speaker 1: it's it's very very difficult. But my question is, given

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Speaker 1: the amount of DNA that we are led to believe

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Speaker 1: they pulled off of this sheath, it seems to be

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Speaker 1: very very small. So does that matter? I mean, is

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Speaker 1: that going to give Well obviously it did, but is

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Speaker 1: that going to give um forensic investigators enough to say

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Speaker 1: with you know, beyond a reasonable doubt that they matched.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's certainly more than enough. We're talking,

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Speaker 1: you know, at a molecular level here. That's how strong

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Speaker 1: the connectivity is. So it takes very little. It takes

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Speaker 1: very very little, Jackie, very very little. And you know,

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Speaker 1: let's think about you're already, okay, we're already kind of

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Speaker 1: a bit behind the eight ball. Would touch DNA because

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Speaker 1: it's not a complete strand because you know, like I said,

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Speaker 1: it's coming from a dead skin cell. It's slept of

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Speaker 1: assuming that that that it is touched DNA. Of course

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Speaker 1: it could be you know, a number of other things

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Speaker 1: as well. We don't have enough information right now, but

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Speaker 1: it does not require a tremendous amount of sample in

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Speaker 1: order to work back through this. For these DNA scientists

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Speaker 1: who are just incredibly brilliant and the technology they have

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Speaker 1: at their disposal, it's daunting when you're staring down the

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Speaker 1: barrel of this as a defense team. The father of

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Speaker 1: Kaylee Gonzolvis, has mentioned that his daughter's wounds were different

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Speaker 1: than the other victims, saying that she had gouges in

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Speaker 1: her body. I'm curious whether or not we would be

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Speaker 1: likely to see defensive wounds on either person that could

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Speaker 1: be definitively defined as they were trying to defend the

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Speaker 1: other person. Well well, yeah, and okay, here here's here's

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Speaker 1: something that you have to consider. At this point, we

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Speaker 1: don't know what position Mattie and Kaylee were actually in

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Speaker 1: in this bed. We know that they were in the

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Speaker 1: bed together, and to your point, you know, was was

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Speaker 1: one huddled over the other in a defensive posture attempting

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Speaker 1: to defend against any kind of strikes by the accused.

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Speaker 1: Is that is that what we're talking about? Or were

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Speaker 1: they both lyned in what would be considered quote unquote

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Speaker 1: a normal sleeping posture, you know, face up, facedown or

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Speaker 1: on their sides. You had mentioned earlier that it's it's

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Speaker 1: really hard I think for many of us to even

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Speaker 1: think that a stabbing could have taken place without one

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Speaker 1: person having been aware of it. You know, how how

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Speaker 1: do you get past that? You know, because this is

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Speaker 1: not like a gunshot wound, where uh, it's sudden and

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Speaker 1: you might have, I don't know, a pretty quick death.

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Speaker 1: There would have been pain associated with it. There would

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Speaker 1: have been an awareness at a very primal level. You know,

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Speaker 1: you would think that a scream would have emanated a

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Speaker 1: reaction of some kind. I think that it would be

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Speaker 1: speculative at best for forensic pathologists to be able to

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Speaker 1: get upon the stand and say, yet this person was

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Speaker 1: defending the other person from you know, an aggressor. Based

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Speaker 1: upon the examination of the wounds and again these comments

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Speaker 1: that the father is making, I have a difficult time

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Speaker 1: kind of measuring out how much information he knows about

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Speaker 1: the injuries on the other victims. Has he's spoken with

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Speaker 1: the family members of other victims and they've described injuries

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Speaker 1: to him, and he's been able to kind of compare

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Speaker 1: and contrast, if you will. That's that's very interesting that

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Speaker 1: he can make that statement, you know, and he uses

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Speaker 1: the term gauges, and that's not something that's generally associated

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Speaker 1: with forensic pathology, so that that's not something that a

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist or a trained corner would say. We would

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Speaker 1: not say, well, they have gauge marks on them. Now,

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Speaker 1: I think a broader, broader thought here is was he

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Speaker 1: able to see her remains at the funeral home? And

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Speaker 1: if that's the case, he could be assessing this in

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Speaker 1: his own in his own way, I think famously. You know,

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Speaker 1: he made one of the early initial comments when he

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Speaker 1: was given a press conference, he alluded to this interesting

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Speaker 1: construct where he said, I paid for that. I paid

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Speaker 1: for that. I didn't know what he meant by that.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know was he talking about the funeral. Was

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Speaker 1: he talking about the funeral? Did he go to the

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Speaker 1: funeral home prior to his daughter's body being prepared and

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Speaker 1: he saw the remains? So I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 1: know where this is kind of bubbling up from, and

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Speaker 1: I would I think i'd be interested in seeing what

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Speaker 1: the actual forensic pathologist has to say about this case

254
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Speaker 1: and about everything that's connected to it in order to,

255
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Speaker 1: you know, kind of assess these injuries, because look, I mean,

256
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Speaker 1: he's a dad, He's going to be very very emotional

257
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Speaker 1: over this, and I don't know what he is saying

258
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Speaker 1: and what contexts he's saying this in at the scene

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Speaker 1: of a death, anything, and I mean anything that is

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Speaker 1: particularly an indoor scene, anything that is in that residence,

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00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 1: in that structure, has value because you just never know,

262
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Speaker 1: you never know where the road is going to lead

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Speaker 1: from an evidentiary standpoint. With that said, I would argue,

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Speaker 1: I would argue that perhaps aside from the evidence that

265
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Speaker 1: the bodies contain, one of the most important things, one

266
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Speaker 1: of the most important things here are the mattresses that

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Speaker 1: these bodies were found upon, because you're you're going to

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Speaker 1: learn a lot, You're going to learn so much from

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Speaker 1: the surfaces of these mattresses, You're gonna learn so much

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Speaker 1: from perhaps the interior of these mattresses'. It is what

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Speaker 1: we would term an evidence rich environment. Well, I had

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Speaker 1: a big lightbulb go off over my head, Joe as

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Speaker 1: we all watched as investigators removed those mattresses. Is from

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Speaker 1: the hall. Those mattresses, it looked like they were inside

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Speaker 1: I would have I guess a huge evidence bag or

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Speaker 1: a mattress bag or something. But they were loaded into

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Speaker 1: the back of a pickup truck. And the first thing

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Speaker 1: that went through my head was, that's not how Joe

279
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Speaker 1: Scott would do it. Am I right, Yes, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: And this goes back to valuable sentimental objects that were

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Speaker 1: released from the scene already. You know, so you're releasing

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Speaker 1: these items from the scene that quote unquote have sentimental

283
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Speaker 1: value whatever that means. I have no idea what that means. Okay,

284
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Speaker 1: but yet you're going to keep these mattresses within the

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Speaker 1: environment and having not secured them to the point where

286
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Speaker 1: you're going to remove them to be analyzed. Because here

287
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,439
Speaker 1: this is the key, pay very close attention to be

288
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Speaker 1: analyzed at the lab, you're going to leave them in there.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't understand that. Most of the time,

290
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Speaker 1: when you're talking about mattresses that are involved in homicides

291
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 1: like this, that are arguably blood soaked, all right, contained

292
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of physical evidence that's going out the

293
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Speaker 1: door to the crime lab, like immediately, like that night,

294
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Speaker 1: you're going to make arrangements. They're going to be taken away.

295
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Speaker 1: And yeah, I saw it, and my jawhead floor when

296
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Speaker 1: I was I was looking at I was thinking, wait,

297
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Speaker 1: am I am I actually seeing this? When I saw

298
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Speaker 1: the footage of a mattress being placed into the back

299
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Speaker 1: of a pickup truck. And granted it appears to be

300
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 1: it's enveloped in something, all right, in some kind of

301
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 1: of you know, container of some type of pouch if

302
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,399
Speaker 1: you will, to get it to the crime lab. But

303
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 1: you're going to put it in the back of a

304
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,119
Speaker 1: pickup truck. That's that's what we're doing. Now, you're not

305
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 1: going to have a van, You're not going to have

306
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,359
Speaker 1: some other resource that you can place this thing in

307
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,199
Speaker 1: where it's protected from the elements completely and transported to

308
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 1: the lab. At that point, I don't understand the rationale

309
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 1: behind that, because the mattresses have fragile evidence on them.

310
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Speaker 1: You know, obviously we're talking about DNA, but we're also

311
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 1: talking about things like hair and fiber, and we're also

312
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: talking about the potential for tool marks. So what do

313
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 1: you mean by that, Well, let's just say that these

314
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:55,160
Speaker 1: mattresses were the surface that the victims were lying upon.

315
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Speaker 1: If the perpetrator did not land the knife strike on

316
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: the body and mist and it went into the mattress,

317
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 1: then now you're transferring whatever was on the surface of

318
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 1: that knife to the interior of the mattress. So now

319
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,199
Speaker 1: you're getting down into the substratum of the mattress. So

320
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 1: you've got this very dynamic environment that these attacks are

321
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: occurring in. One of the biggest areas for evidence capture

322
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 1: is going to be on the surface of this mattress

323
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Speaker 1: and potentially the interior of this mattress. So I was left,

324
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,239
Speaker 1: you know, kind of with my mouth open, you know,

325
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 1: really really trying to understand what their purpose was in

326
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: removing them so late and after the fact. Well, and

327
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: looking at the news coverage, the mattresses were not removed

328
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: until about a month after the last time the investigators

329
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,360
Speaker 1: were last seen taking items out of the home for

330
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 1: that reason and then questioning them how they moved them.

331
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: Obviously some of these investigators or seasoned investigators, So I'm

332
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: sure that there was a plan. So how do you

333
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: think with what they encased those mattresses in How were

334
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,439
Speaker 1: they hermetically sealed to make sure that nothing got in.

335
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily worried about as much getting out as

336
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: I am of whatever is in there being contaminated. I

337
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: think we need to worry about both things, both aspects

338
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: to this. We do need to worry about things certainly

339
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 1: getting in as you stay at jack, anything from externally

340
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: that could find its way inside of this pouch that

341
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 1: might be outside of what you would expect to find

342
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 1: in the pristine, interior protected scene. All right, when you

343
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: hit that door, have you got to think secured to

344
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 1: the point where anything on the outside is not going

345
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: to find its way, you know, because the environment that

346
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 1: you're exiting is reasonably protected, you know, within the apartment

347
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: or the house as it is. But then you go

348
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: into an outdoor environment with this thing, and you have

349
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: to make sure that it is secured. Now to the

350
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: other point here losing things. If it's a if it's

351
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: a blood stain, for instance, and it has saturated into

352
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: the mattress, there's high possibility that you're going to be

353
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: able to, you know, protect that to a great degree

354
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: from you know, wind and rain, because you've got this

355
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: this covering on it. I'm really worried about fragile evidence,

356
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: certainly like touch, which is if you think about touched

357
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: in a being the consistency of ten times more fragile

358
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: than say, for instance, halcoulm powder that dainty and grass aisle.

359
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 1: It can actually, you know, kind of blow away. Also

360
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: to be considered our hair and fiber, which you know

361
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: any of us, know you know that have dogs or

362
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: have maybe we were finding hair on ourselves. Anything that's fragile,

363
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: it can either attach itself to us or it can

364
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: be blown away, and that would be a consideration as well.

365
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: You don't want to lose anything that you may have

366
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: captured up there in a scene. I hope that that

367
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: they had these these pouches secured on those mattresses before

368
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: they brought them downstairs. All of this is not as

369
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: concerning to me though, as the amount of time it's

370
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 1: taken and then the conveyance in which they chose to

371
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: do this with. And it goes more to the way

372
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 1: the lawyers are going to look at this, and particularly

373
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 1: the sense team, because they're going to take that that

374
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: videography that you and I both saw and at trial

375
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: they'll they'll run that. They'll run that on the screen.

376
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: And remember they don't have to prove anything, they just

377
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: have to kind of implant that doubt in their minds,

378
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: you know. And anybody up in this region, it's ever

379
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: ridden around a pickup truck. They've been in the bed

380
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: of a pickup truck. They know the wind blows. Anybody

381
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: that's ever moved period, moved, Yeah, anybody. And driving down

382
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: the interstate, you see mattresses and furniture on the side

383
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: of the road. I mean that was all I could

384
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: think of, truly, well, almost all I can think of

385
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: was Holy cow. I hope they have strapped those things

386
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 1: down really well, yeah, I do too. And you know,

387
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: just the physical security of the items themselves. It's It's

388
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: an odd thing, isn't it, Because you know, most of

389
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: the time when you're watching videography outside of crime scenes

390
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: and you see the you see the technicians walking out

391
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: of the door, they're generally carrying bags. You know, you

392
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: think about all the time, thousands and thousands of hours

393
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: of footage that we've seen, stuff that I've seen in

394
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: real time being out on scenes. You think about, you know,

395
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: paper bags that are sealed. You can see the evidence tape.

396
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: These things are sealed with and of course there's other

397
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: types of packaging that you can use, and then it

398
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: kind of goes into the back of a van and

399
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: it disappears, right, it just vanishes. That's not what happened

400
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: with this. It comes out of the house and it's

401
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: then planted in the back of a pickup truck. And

402
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: it gives you pause, It certainly does, and just hoping

403
00:26:40,840 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: that they haven't lost anything here. People have asked me,

404
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: how would you describe the forensics in this case. The

405
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: one word that kind of sums it up for me

406
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: is dense. There's so much. There's so much on so

407
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: many levels that it's hard, you know, just to kind

408
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: of sit here and way through it all. But there's

409
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: certain things that we can consider, and not everything's been

410
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: revealed yet. Jackie. One of the things that I've learned

411
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: from you is how you can prove that a certain

412
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: gun caused a certain wound? How are you going to

413
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: do that with a knife, especially a knife? You've not found,

414
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: great question, and let's let's let's look at what we

415
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: do have. What we do have is a sheath, okay,

416
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: which I think is a monumental piece of evidence and

417
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: it's going to play in court when this think finally

418
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: goes to trial. But along with that sheath you get

419
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: at least the beginnings of an identification. That is, provided

420
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: that the knife that was carried in that sheath is

421
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: the same type of knife that would have come with

422
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 1: the sheath, Okay, because you can't have a sheath and

423
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: carry a different type of knife in it. That's certainly

424
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: something that must be considered, all right. So to begin with,

425
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: what will happen is that the authorities the investigators will contact,

426
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: will contact the company that manufactures this knife, in particular,

427
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: specifically K Bar right. And if I remember correctly, on

428
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: the exterior of the sheath it is stamped with USMC.

429
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: It's got the Marine Corps emblem on it, okay, and

430
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: that is an identifier for that particular knife. There's probably

431
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: somewhere on there a serial number. So they'll contact the manufacturer,

432
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: will say, hey, look, we're working this case. We need

433
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: to get what are referred to as as knowns or

434
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: exemplars of this knife. So they'll ask for you maybe

435
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: two of these knives to come from the factory, and

436
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: they'll get the sheath and they'll get the knife itself,

437
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: all right, and this is something that they're going to

438
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: hang on to. Now, what they can do is that

439
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: they can actually take a look at the injuries, at

440
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: the injuries that these kids sustained, and the forensic pathologists

441
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: will look at the knife and come up with a

442
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: conclusion as to whether or not this particular type of

443
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: knife can generate this injury. Now, if you want to

444
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: take it a step further, if there are any marks

445
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: on any of the skeletal bodies within these remains, and

446
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: I'm talking about ribs, sternam spine, collar bone, any of

447
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: these areas, there is a potential that the samples of

448
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: these injured areas have been retained. This happens with great

449
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: frequency at autopsy. So you if there's what's referred to

450
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: as an insulted piece of bone, that piece of bone

451
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,239
Speaker 1: would be removed from the body and it would be

452
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: retained by the crime lab or by theme. And once

453
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: you get that knife or a knife similar to that,

454
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: you will ask a tool mark expert at the crime lab,

455
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: maybe at the state crime lab, maybe with the FBI

456
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: to do a comparison. Give you, give us an idea,

457
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: what's your opinion here? Looking at this microscopically, at this

458
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: injury on the bone. Can you look at this knife

459
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: and say that this knife generated this injury and they

460
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: might can you know, they'll come up with an opinion

461
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: about it, you know, and a lot goes into it.

462
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: You can talk about the shape of the blade along

463
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: the long axis. All of these blades are unique to

464
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: the manufacturer. Those are things that they will explore. Now,

465
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: we don't have the actual knife to compare at this time,

466
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: not saying it's not going to make an appearance, but

467
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: in my experience with knife injuries, it's important to consider

468
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: that depended upon the quality of the blade and the

469
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: metal and the way it's forged is created, this type

470
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: of blade might chip. Okay, it might chip, and if

471
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: it chips, many times it'll chip within the body, particularly

472
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: if it's striking bony areas. You say, well, what can

473
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: you do with that? Well, before an autopsy is conducted,

474
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: one of the things that is done is you do

475
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: what is called an AP and a lateral X ray

476
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: of the body. AP means if anybody that's listening, you've

477
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: been to the docks office and they make you stand

478
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: to get a chest X ray and they make you

479
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: stand and put your shoulders to the wall. Um, they're

480
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: taking a chest X ray. That's an ap that's kind

481
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: of an overall view from that perspective, and then they

482
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: do a lateral you know, when you're in the X

483
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: ray room, they make you turn and profile and they

484
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,479
Speaker 1: shoot you from that perspective. Well, that's a lateral and

485
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: so what do you do with those two two X rays. Well,

486
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: you look at them before you do the autopsy and

487
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: you say, Okay, anatomically, if I'm looking at this at

488
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: this image and I see a little metal storm right here,

489
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: it might be just to the right of the mid line,

490
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: maybe adjacent to the left upper lobe of the left lung, Okay,

491
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: then you flip it and you look at the lateral

492
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: perspective and you can get an idea of depth. So

493
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: you're not going in blind. The key is can you

494
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,719
Speaker 1: can you find mind? Can you find that metallic body

495
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: and retrieve it? And if you can't. If you can't,

496
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: there's an off chance that you can submit that to

497
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: the crime lab and they could do a metallurgical analysis

498
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: on that. And very simple terms, what that means is

499
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: that that item has a specific chemical signature that is

500
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: unique to that manufacturer. You know how that blade is forged.

501
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: If it's is an amalgam of various different types of metal,

502
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: you know, how do they fold it in and all

503
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: those sorts of things, And that's that's kind of a

504
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: chemical signature. Additionally, what happens with knife wounds, and again

505
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: we don't have the knife, and we don't know at

506
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: this point, but many times, with sharp force injuries, the

507
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: tip of the knife, the very point of it will

508
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: actually break off and it will lodge, It will lodge

509
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: in the body. I've seen this happen any number of times,

510
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: and most of the time it goes back to the

511
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: structural integrity of the knife as it applies to the

512
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: quality of the manufacturer, you know how they make these things.

513
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: And secondly, the age of the blade. You know, how

514
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 1: old is this blade? And then how much stress has

515
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: the blade been put under. Well, let's think about what

516
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, right, We're talking about four victims,

517
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: Jackie four. All right, This knife, I think, just from

518
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: a structural standpoint, has been involved in very in a

519
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: very intense, a very intense attack. So the more and

520
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: more these victims are stabbed, it would stand a reason

521
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: that the structural integrity of the blade could begin to

522
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: break down. People don't think about. You know, every time

523
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: you use a blade, say in your kitchen, to cut

524
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: something with that blade, even though you may have just sharpened,

525
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: it is not as sharp as it was before you

526
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: used it. And you keep that progression up without sharpening

527
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: the blade, it blunts the blade. And as the blade

528
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: gets blunted and you're still using the same amount of force,

529
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: you put stress on those edges and it can begin

530
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: to break down. It'll chip, it'll chip, and sometimes those

531
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: tips will break off. I just hope that they did

532
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: full body X rays prior to doing the autopsy. Let's

533
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: see if for once I know more than you do, Joe.

534
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: Not likely, but let's see. Come on, do you know

535
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: where the name Kbar came from? I do not who? Okay,

536
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: all right, let me let me enjoy it this moment.

537
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: So the name Kabar came from the company that manufactured

538
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: these knives was Union Cutlery. And the name Kabar reportedly

539
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,439
Speaker 1: is derived from a story of a man who went

540
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 1: toe to toe with a bear. His rifle didn't kill,

541
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: it didn't inflict enough damage, and he went hand to

542
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: hand and finished off the bear with his knife from

543
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: Union cutlery. Hence the name k a bar came from

544
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: kill a bear. Wow, I had no idea. And plus,

545
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: you're originally from East Tennessee, so you guys would pronounce

546
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: bar like that, bear like that, right, So yeah, good

547
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: country folks would have said bar. Well, that's that's actually

548
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. I had to know. So I went

549
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: and I went and looked it up. And this is

550
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 1: coming from I'm getting this from the website Exquisite Knives

551
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: dot com. Well, you know, I would believe that it's

552
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: probably do you know that our marines and our sailors

553
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: and actually our coasties have carried k bars for a

554
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: long time. Of course, the sailors and the coasties have

555
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: a different utility for him. They'll you know, do work

556
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: on decks and that sort of thing, cut rope and

557
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: and you know, and do maintenance for marine corps. We

558
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: know what the Marine corps likes to use their k

559
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: bars for. And so it's a and that's who it's

560
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: most closely associated with. I think one last thing that

561
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: I want to get your take on is the footprint

562
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:19,479
Speaker 1: that was left outside the surviving roommates door. Yeah, what's

563
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: that going to give us a lot? And not many

564
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: people are talking about it. I haven't really talked about

565
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: it a lot, but I think that it's significant. And

566
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm kind of unclear based upon the affidavit because they

567
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: used they used an agent a Meato blue. That is

568
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: said that again, a Meato blue, and it is it's

569
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: used it. It's a it binds with protein and it

570
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: binds with protein in blood. And so you'll use it

571
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: to lift latent prints with all right, or two let's

572
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: say not lift, let's say document. Latent prints and latent

573
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: prince can either be handprints palm prints, but it can

574
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: actually also be footprints. And in this case that's how

575
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: they recognize this. They were applying this agent to the

576
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: floor and they came up with this analysis from the

577
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: scene and they established that this print, this print was

578
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: not only did they say what the print was, as

579
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: far as the shape, they used the term diamond, I think, Jackie.

580
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: They came back with the manufacturer and this is um

581
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: it's a van and for those that don't know, it

582
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: is a skatershoe For those that are not familiar. If

583
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: you're familiar with the movie Fast Fast Times at Ridgemont High.

584
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: There's a famous scene where Sean Penn takes pair of

585
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: vans and he takes it and he slaps itself and

586
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: the skull with it and says, hey, you know what

587
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: that is. That's my skull. And if you reflect, that's

588
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: a pair of vans. That's what those are. They just

589
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: kind of slip on. They look like deck shoes really,

590
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: but they're they're used for skating, they do. But why

591
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 1: is that significant? Well, it's significant. You know, we talk

592
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: a lot about DNA and you know the trace evidence,

593
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,959
Speaker 1: but you know, when you get these manufacturer connections as well,

594
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: one of the questions, I think that it's really important.

595
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: I know that these guys are doing their due diligence

596
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: and asking these questions. Very simply put, did the suspect

597
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: own pair of vans? That seems very simplistic, but you

598
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: got to start somewhere right, Well, if he owned a

599
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 1: pair of vans, did he own this type of pair

600
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: of vans where it has this particular pattern? And also,

601
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 1: I don't know how robust this print was that they

602
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: had raised, but here's a very interesting aspect. If it

603
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: was significant enough that print that was left behind, you

604
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: might could tell something about the wear pattern. And when

605
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: I say wear pattern, I'm talking about maybe how old

606
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: the shoes were. Was it was it kind of a

607
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: faint kind of print? Was it something that looks like

608
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: it was generated from something that was worn down? Think

609
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: about a pencil within a racer. You know how the

610
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: eraser on a brand new pencil will look, you know,

611
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: like it'll have all the little curves on, it will

612
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: be perfectly round on the side. And but yeah, after

613
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: you use it for a while, you wear if you

614
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: wear it down, it has a completely different appearance to

615
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. And also another thing that you

616
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: can analyze here is is perhaps if this how they step?

617
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: Do they pronate, do they supernate? You know? What? Do

618
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: they do they heal strike? Well, it all depends on

619
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: do they flex their feet in? Do they walk kind

620
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 1: of on the arch of their foot? Yeah? Well yeah,

621
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: some people used to use term not need you know,

622
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: you roll your feet in and you strike on the

623
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: the inter portionary foot or do you do you say,

624
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: list more to the outer edges of your foot or

625
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: kind of roll your feet out when you walk? And

626
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: then how are you a heel striker? Are you a

627
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: tow striker when you're walking or do you just shuffle?

628
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: Do you like plant your feet, you know, straight up

629
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: and down, almost like a piston. And you know, these

630
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: people that do this, this shoe analysis, are amazing people,

631
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: and they don't get a lot of credit because it's

632
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: a very it's a very fine science. There's a bit

633
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: of art involved in it too. But that footprint is

634
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: very significant, at least to my way of thinking. And

635
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: I'd have to ask if they raise the print with

636
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: something this agent that binds with the proteins in blood,

637
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 1: are we left to believe that this is a bloody

638
00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: shoe print. I'm just as Scott Morgan and this is

639
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: body bags