1 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You've worked your entire 2 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: life to make a home, to create a family, maybe 3 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: even put away enough money to have a lakehouse somewhere 4 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: where you can get away, get away from all of 5 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: the every day the grind. But suddenly your life ends 6 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: brutally at the end of a rifle, and then your 7 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: body is dismembered. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is 8 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: Body Backs. Joining me today is my good friend Jackie Howard, 9 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories. Would Nancy Grace joining me 10 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of 11 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Jackie, what can you tell 12 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: us about this case? Today? Twenty three year old Chander 13 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: Holderson is charged with first degree intentional homicide, mutilating and 14 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: hiding a corpse, and giving false information to authorities. Now. 15 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: The tension between Halderson and his parents began after it 16 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: was discovered that he had been lying about a variety 17 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: of things, including attending Madison Area Technical College. It was 18 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: Holderson who first reported that his parents were missing. He 19 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: told the LAE that they had intended to spend the 20 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: weekend at their Lakeside cottage, but according to Chandler Holderson, 21 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: they did not return as expected. That missing person report 22 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: was made at approximately eleven thirty in the morning. He 23 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: also told them that maybe they decided to go to 24 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: a casino. He said their phones were off, or they 25 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: had no reception, or maybe they were on a boat 26 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: having some fun. What we find out is Blart and 27 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: Krista Holderson are missing because their son has murdered them 28 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: and dismembered the bodies. Joe, there were so much deception 29 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: in this case, and that really caused a problem with 30 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: the investigation. When you have so many lines that are 31 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: being told, what do you do? How do you start 32 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: an investigation like this? It's very difficult, Jackie. When you 33 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: begin to think about it. Um, it's it's one of 34 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: these things where you, as as an investigator, you begin 35 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: to look at it and you see it's almost like 36 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: fishing line that gets tied in this massive not Some 37 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: people call it a bird's nest, and it's your job 38 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: to go in there and begin to kind of take 39 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: this thing apart very carefully. You don't want to tear it, 40 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: uh tear tear the uh. You don't want to pull 41 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: it apart to the point where you you break it 42 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: into pieces. You want to try to unravel it so 43 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: that you can understand the time line, because that's what 44 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: this all is all about. Uh. You know with this 45 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: young man, he was specifically lying about timelines, and time is, 46 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: as investigators, is the most important thing that we possess. 47 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: It is the greatest asset that we have in any 48 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: death investigation, in particular for a variety of reasons. You know, 49 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: if you look at it from the forensic standpoint, you 50 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: begin to think about the main One of the main 51 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: questions they ask a death investigator is how long in 52 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: fact has the individual been deceased. Well, when you when 53 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: you have witnesses, and in this case, you have a 54 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: son that's that possesses what you hope is firsthand knowledge. 55 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: If he is giving you bad time information, then everything 56 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: begins to get twisted. But here's here's the reverse of that. 57 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: When you begin to when you finally get your hands 58 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: on a body, for instance, and you begin to examine 59 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: the body, the science says otherwise, okay, relative to the timeline, 60 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that we look for, 61 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: and many time criminals don't think about that. They don't 62 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: think that the science can actually trip them up at 63 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: the most simple level of science. You know, when we 64 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: begin to talk about postwarum changes in decomposition and all 65 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: those sorts of things, that's when the science doesn't marry 66 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: up with a narrative that the potential perpetrators trying to 67 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: sell to us. So we know that Chandler Holderson first 68 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: reported his parents missing at eleven thirty that morning, and 69 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: he said they could be with friends. He didn't know 70 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: where they were, so the police started there, Where did 71 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: they go next? Since we don't have an idea who 72 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: the couple is. Do they go to the home, to 73 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: the farm that they were supposed to be at? Do 74 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: they start looking for bank records? I mean, how do 75 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: you start to form that timeline? Well, you know, you 76 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: want to reach out to any of the principles that 77 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: are in in the life of the missing individual. And 78 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: in this particular case with Krista and specifically her, her 79 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: coworkers had become concerned over the fact that um, that 80 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: she hadn't turned up at work and you know, she's 81 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: apparently very diligent and what she does she doesn't you know, 82 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: not come to work. So that is a head scratcher 83 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: for them. She hadn't requested any kind of time off, 84 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: a time off at that point in time. And here 85 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: he is, he's telling this the story that well. First off, 86 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: the story he said is that they had left with 87 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: a mystery couple, Okay, that they were going to this 88 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: a lake cottage that the family had and uh, he 89 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: didn't know who the couple was. All right, how can 90 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: you do that? You live with your parents, you don't 91 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: know who they're who they're going off with. And when 92 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: her coworkers came to the house, they looked in the 93 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: garage and they saw that both of the cars were there, 94 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: so that was kind of a head scratcher for them. 95 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: And then Chandler puts forth also that the family that 96 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: his mom and dad had to go to the lake, 97 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: uh because of an emergency. They were going there to 98 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: check on the cottage in order because there had been 99 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: a big storm that had come through and they were 100 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: gonna go do repairs. And then the story just becomes 101 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: bigger and bigger and bigger all along. And this is 102 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: the trick, isn't it. If you're trying to stay uh, 103 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: convincing when it comes to investigators. The more you add 104 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: onto this, you can't remember the lies that you've already told, 105 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: and so this is gonna make alarm bells go off 106 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: with the cops at any moment in time. And you 107 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: have to be very very careful if you're the perpetrator, 108 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: and it distracts you, doesn't it It distracts you from 109 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: what the reality is versus what the story is that 110 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: you're trying or the story that you're trying to sell 111 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: them is. So it's kind of an odd situation to 112 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: be in the first Live when Chandler reported that his 113 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: parents were missing again, I just mentioned that, I know, 114 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: but it's really important because his report was made on Wednesday, 115 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: July seven. That was when Chandler reported his parents missing 116 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: again that morning. But the last time that Bart and 117 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: Krista Holderson were seen was life first at their home. 118 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: You would think that there would be more concerned with 119 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: the fact that your parents did not come back when 120 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: they said they were going to before six days. Yeah, 121 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: you would think so, Jackie that uh, you know that 122 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: you would have contact with him. Now, you know, Chandler's 123 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: got a brother and older brother that doesn't live at home. 124 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: He's out on his own. This young man lives with 125 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: his parents. He has an intimate relationship with them from 126 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: a familial standpoint, you know, he kind of knows their 127 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: comings and goings. That's why it's so odd about this, 128 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: uh mystery couple that they were supposed to have gone 129 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: off with that he can't come up with a name for. 130 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: How how can you not keep track of your parents timeline? 131 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: And why is it that you would wait six days Jackie, 132 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: six days to report your parents missing? I mean, this 133 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: is these are people that he sees day in and 134 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: day out. Uh. He he knows what his father does 135 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: for a living as an accountant, he knows his mom's schedule. 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: He's he's fully aware of what's going on. And here's 137 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: another wrinkle, and this is kind of interesting that, you know, 138 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of a head scratcher, knowing what we know 139 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: about Chandler's father. Um, Chandler had put forth the narrative 140 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: as well that um, that his mom and dad had 141 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: gone to a casino. Well, just let me tell you, 142 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: Bart Holderson. Guess what he did for a living. He 143 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: was an accountant. And according to his friends, the people 144 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: that were quote unquote in his intimate circle, this guy 145 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: knew every single scent that he had. He didn't spend 146 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: money at all. Now, for somebody that holds onto money 147 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: like that, uh, that is fully aware of of what 148 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: they have in the bank, going off to a casino 149 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: rather spontaneously seems a bit frivolous, doesn't It does. And 150 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: what compounds this web of lies is that Halterson told 151 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: the police that he had messages between himself and his 152 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: parents while they were gone. Messages are easily traced. You 153 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: would think that people nowadays would have an understanding this 154 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: is not like this took place, um, you know, two 155 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: decades ago, where you know, back then, text messaging and 156 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: everything was it was rudimentary compared to what it is 157 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: like now and tracking the phone devices and all of 158 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: those sorts of things. We are in a connected universe now, 159 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: and this, this case is a prime example of the 160 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: lack of an awareness that an individual has relative to 161 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: how they can be tracked, not just with the messages 162 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: that they're sending, but also the movement of a phone. Uh, 163 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: you know. And to keep this in mind, both uh, 164 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: Christa and and Bart's phones were nowhere to be found, 165 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: at least initially. Uh. They couldn't track them. They didn't 166 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: know where they were. As a matter of fact, one 167 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: of the messages or one of the pains that they 168 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: had came back from a county which they had not 169 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: been visiting, that they did not regularly go to, and 170 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: so from Jump Street, the police were suspicious at that 171 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: moment time, Jackie, I gotta tell you, as as a 172 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: death investigator, one of the most overwhelming task that we 173 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: have is anytime we have a case where a body 174 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: or bodies have been dismembered. And the reason it's so 175 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: difficult is is the fact that there's always the potential 176 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: that you're going to have multiple scenes with a case 177 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: like that. What you need to tell us about the 178 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: evidence in this case, one of the biggest clues that 179 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: came forward Joe to help the police solve this crime 180 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: is that even though Chandler Holderson told police that he 181 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: did not have any idea where his parents were, that 182 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: he had not been to the family cottage, we now 183 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: know that he had been. A witness came forward after 184 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: the couple was reported missing to tell police that Chandler 185 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: was seen coming out of the woods by the cottage house, 186 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: and that gave the police a place to start searching 187 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: and is in that search that they found the remains 188 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: or partial remains. I should say of bart Holderson, you know, 189 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: with with Chandler key, they he he claimed that he 190 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: had no idea as to the location of his parents. 191 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: But let's keep in mind that several witnesses had actually 192 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: placed an individual that looked similar to Chandler in these 193 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: specific areas. I think one area was near what's referred 194 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: to as the Wisconsin River, where he was kind of 195 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: wandering back and forth between a roadway and the river 196 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: h presumably to look for a place to deposit remains. 197 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: There was also a vehicle that fit the description of 198 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: one of the family's vehicles there at the scene with 199 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: and now get this, with the hatchback open, and he 200 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,599 Speaker 1: was seen walking away from the vehicle with a backpack 201 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: on his shoulders. And so anytime you begin to see 202 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: this kind of activity and it sticks in the brain 203 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: of a witness, that could be very damning, but it 204 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: can also be a major help to the police, because 205 00:12:58,160 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: keep in mind, at this point in time, when you 206 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: walk into an investigation like this, you don't really know 207 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: which way the wind is blowing, particularly if you have 208 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: a primary suspect witness like the son who is giving 209 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: you bad information all the way along. The key here 210 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: is discovering physical information, whether it would be UH say, 211 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: gunfire related evidence, blood evidence, uh instrumentalities, or specifically human remains. 212 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: We know that the first piece of evidence that the 213 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: police came across was a tarp covered in blood, and 214 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: inside that tarp was bar Holderson's body. So with the 215 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: discovery of that, that gave the police SAMPA just to 216 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: get a search warrant to search the entirety of the 217 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 1: property and other related properties. So let's start with the tarp, Joe, 218 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: what all is that gonna tell us? We know, Jackie, 219 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand you, in particularly if 220 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: you listen to any kind of trial, any kind of 221 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: testimony from trial, and you cannot simply go up on 222 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: a stand as a forensic witness and say I saw 223 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: blood at the scene. You have to jump through several 224 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: layers in order before you can get to blood. So 225 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: one of the things they would have done with that 226 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: tarp is they do what is referred to as a 227 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: presumptive test, and that's a field test that you can 228 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: do out of the scene. You look at the tarp 229 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: and you might see a dried red area or brown. 230 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes it appears brown. Sometimes I've even seen it look 231 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: like milk chocolate. And you swab that area and you 232 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: do a test. At that point in time, you say, okay, yeah, 233 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: this is blood. Chemistry is telling me this is blood. 234 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: But you can't you can't go any further than that 235 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: without doing another test, and that is a test where 236 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: you test it to see if it is actually human blood, 237 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: because it could be an animal. Maybe it was a deer, 238 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: maybe it was a dog. You have no idea. And 239 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: so once you find human blood, then you have to think, well, 240 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: we've got people that are missing. H is this blood 241 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: tied back to the individuals that are missing in some way? 242 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: And of course it turned out to be Bart. Now 243 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: you had mentioned that they found Bart's body, Well, they 244 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: didn't actually find the totality of his body. They found 245 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: his torso and his torso it was missing limbs, Jackie. 246 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: So you know, can you imagine your police officer and 247 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: you have no idea what to expect, and then suddenly 248 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: you recover the body that is missing limbs. It's missing 249 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: ahead and as it turns out, I had a couple 250 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: of gunshot ones in it as well. That was the 251 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: first indication of the gruesomeness of this case. At that 252 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: time that the father's body was found, Krista Holderson's body 253 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: was still missing, and we still do not believe that 254 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: full remains of Krista have been found. The parents were 255 00:15:54,960 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: dismembered and brutally dismembered. Explained to me Joe what he used? 256 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: How is that going to be done? How difficult is 257 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: that going to be done? And what is the evidence 258 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: that is going to show up on the body to 259 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: let us know which instruments were used? I want, I 260 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: want our listeners who are just really bright. You wouldn't 261 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: believe some of the comments I get from folks about 262 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: what we talked about on body bags. I know that 263 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: you guys are gonna understand this. When you think about 264 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: a body and you're taking a body apart, what are 265 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: you doing? Well, you're creating more evidence, aren't you. And 266 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: it's not just the marks that you leave on the body, 267 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: it's what you leave behind, all of the blood evidence 268 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: because it's hard to keep blood evidence, for instance, contained. 269 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: I mean, how many of us have spilled a glass 270 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: of milk before it goes everywhere? It doesn't? Well, blood 271 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: is no different you're gonna have a shower of blood 272 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: all over these locations where you're attempting to dismember body. 273 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: And then you're going through bone Jackie, and we do 274 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: know that he used a saw hand saw. And not 275 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: only did he use a saw, Jackie, they found broken 276 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: saw blades, which means he went through several iterations of 277 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: the saw. You know he's attempting to and because the bone, 278 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: human bone is so robust, if you don't have the 279 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: right tools in order to take it apart, it's gonna 280 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: be problematic. So he actually broke a couple of blades 281 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: while sawing through the remains of his parents, and so 282 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: that's gonna leave telltale marks on the bone. And that's 283 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: where we call in people like tool mark examiners, people 284 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: that are criminals, and they can actually microscopically match up 285 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: marks on the bone that are created by metal objects, 286 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: like like teeth from the saw and every every saw. 287 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: I urge anybody at home, if you have a hack saw, 288 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: for instance, it's going to look different than say a 289 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: limb saw or the saws that we use for instance 290 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: in the Morgue. I mean, how many of you watch 291 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: the show, like Dexter or something like that, and hear 292 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: the little buzzing sound, that high pitch buzzing sound for 293 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: a bone saw. Uh, that's that's called a striker saw. 294 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: We use those in the morgue and that's how we open, say, 295 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: for instance, the head. It's an agitating saw like a 296 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: cast saw. So those teeth mark are gonna look different, 297 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: particularly microscopically. So anytime you apply an instrument to a body, 298 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: it leaves a specific marking on the body, much like 299 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: a bullet has specific markings, and it's something that can 300 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: be tied back to the instrumentalities that are being used. 301 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: We do know that they found scissors that had blood, 302 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: bone and DNA on them. We do know that they 303 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: also found the aforementioned saw with the handle and the 304 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: broken blade. Jackie. They found bolt cutters. Can you imagine 305 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: that bolt cutters were used as well, and an axe. 306 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: So you have all of this instrumentality that is literally 307 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: bathed in the parents DNA and then to boot. You know, 308 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: after the dismemberment takes place, he has to deposit these 309 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: remains somewhere. So at the end of the day, the 310 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: remains are found dispersed in a variety of different locations. 311 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: I think uh in total, almost six maybe with one 312 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: of them actually being the family home. But of course 313 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: the most gruesome thing is yet to follow. What actually 314 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: happened in the fireplace? Jackie, Well, that would be the 315 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: discovery of the father's skull inside the fireplace. It is 316 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: believed that Holderson burned his parents heads in the fireplace. 317 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: That is apparently what had happened. The fire in this fireplace, 318 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: according to the arson investigators, got so very hot that 319 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 1: the bone begin to fragment. And when you look at 320 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: fragmented bone that comes about as a result of burning, uh, 321 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: you it's it's a very interesting presentation. When it kind 322 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: of cracks apart, it looks like a matrix. It's like 323 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: a spider web looking appearance, and you'll generally get this. 324 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: It's very pronounced and burned bone. If it doesn't pulpify 325 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: that means go down to powder. It begins to kind 326 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: of break apart, and you can see this webbing that 327 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: it appears like within the interior of the bone itself. Now, 328 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: I want I want our listeners to really understand this 329 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: and kind of grab hold of this. A crematory if 330 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: if you've ever had loved ones that you know their 331 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: remains have been taken care of by funeral home and 332 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: they've been cremated. It takes eight hundred degrees of sustained 333 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: heat in order to render down a human remain. And 334 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: that's where a constant fuel source, which of course uh 335 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: is natural gas in in most cases. You know, this 336 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: is going into the line that powers the powers the 337 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: crematory and that's sustained. And keep in mind, cremation unit 338 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: is actually all contained. It's not like an open hearth fireplace. 339 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: So this is what this young man would have allegedly 340 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: had to have done. Can you imagine, Jackie, You're having 341 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: to sit in front of the fireplace. You've got your 342 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: father's head, potentially your mother's head. You build a fire 343 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: in the hearth heart that you've sat around as families, 344 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: maybe on Christmas is and you begin to burn wood 345 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: in order to fuel the fire, and you have to 346 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: constantly ten this fire as these heads are literally cooking 347 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: down before your eyes. And this is a big takeaway 348 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: from me. On the right side of the fireplace there 349 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: is a large black stained area and this is quite horrific. 350 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: The fire investigator said that was an indication of liquefied 351 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: fat that had rolled off of the bodies and had 352 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: stained that metallic grate that holds the wood in place, 353 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: and presumably that's where the head or heads would have 354 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: been rendered down. Now, apparently there was an attempt made 355 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: to push there's an ash trap in the base of 356 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: the fireplace, and the individual had opened the ash trap 357 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: and pushed these ashes down into the ash trap and 358 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: they had fallen behind the wall. It's like this catch 359 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: area that they had. And you would not believe what 360 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: the investigators had to go through in order to retrieve 361 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: these fractured remains. They actually had to call a forensic 362 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: anthropologist out to the scene to sift through this ash 363 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: that they're trying to collect. It is a major major undertaking, Jackie. 364 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: When you talk about rendering down the bones, Joe and 365 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: you talked about how robust bone is. What kind of 366 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: temperatures are you're talking about that he used to break 367 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: down the bone and it's not like paper, It doesn't 368 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: just oh there's heat and it turns into ash. Talked 369 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: about sustained temperatures. But did he pound did he grind 370 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: the skull down? I mean, how do you actually get 371 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: it down to powder? Will find are actually just do that. 372 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: I think that it probably could over a protracted period 373 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: of time. But listen, if you don't have a contained 374 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: space where you can hit that uh, hit that sustained 375 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: temperature of eighteen hundred degrees. Remember, in a crematory, they're 376 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: not tending remains, they're they're not having to add fuel, 377 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's just as I've stated, it is 378 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: a sustained constant heat until this is untill these remains 379 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: become what are referred to as cremains. In this particular case, 380 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: he would have had to or the perpetrator would have 381 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: had to have set in front of the hearth and 382 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: maintain this heat. So if you cannot attain that eighteen 383 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: hundred degrees, Jackie, you're going to have to work with 384 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: a lower heat and a longer period of time. I 385 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: cannot even begin to fathom to fathom how long he 386 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: had to sit there and tend that fire and continue 387 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: to add fuel to that fire in order to keep 388 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: the sustainability going where you can begin to render it 389 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: down into your question, I think that's a fantastic question. 390 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: Would you have had to have pulpified the remains? Yeah, 391 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: I think that you would probably have to and the 392 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: question is would you have the will to do you 393 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: have the ability to take an instrumentality like a hammer 394 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: or maybe even a sledge hammer, or maybe even your 395 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,959 Speaker 1: foot and then take the mortal remains of your parents 396 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: out of there and stomp them down or beat them 397 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: down until they become pulpified, you know. And it's totality. 398 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: When you begin to look at this case, you can 399 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: see how much activity has involved in this. You know, 400 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about the disappearance, uh, we're talking about the murder, 401 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: the homicide, and then we're talking about dismemberment. And you know, 402 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: as I previously stated, Jackie, yeah, I mean the idea 403 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: here is that everywhere you go, even going back to 404 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: old my favorite, my favorite forensic scientist of all time, 405 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: Edmund Lekard, who stated that every contact leaves a trace. 406 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: He said that over a hundred years ago. This is 407 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: a perfect example of that happening here. Every contact left 408 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 1: a trace. In this case, well, I think the obvious 409 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: answer here is that Holderson contacted his parents in just 410 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: about every location of that home. DNA and blood found 411 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: throughout the home. Police do believe that the parents were 412 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: shot in the home with the DNA that was found. 413 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: It was even found on his shoes and in the walls. 414 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: How did that part of the investigation progress? You know 415 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: on once the police had a search warrant into the 416 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: Holderson home. Uh, they really took their time once they 417 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: were in there. And keep in mind, when you have 418 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: a search warrant to go through a home, it gives 419 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: you license to be in there for a protracted period 420 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: of time. You can take your time. It's a controlled 421 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: environment and you want to be very very careful. But 422 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: through their care in this investigation, what the police discovered was, 423 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: first off, they found mom and Dad's phone. They were 424 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: hidden away and uh, I think if I remember correctly, 425 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: they were hidden hidden away on a shelff and eathan 426 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: old pair of shoes, if I'm not mistaken. But the 427 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: other thing that they found were several spent case sings 428 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: which the caliber was seven point six two by thirty nine, which, um, 429 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: if folks are familiar with with firearms, that's actually the 430 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: same round that an a K forty seven platform or 431 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: an a K platform utilizes. In this case, when the 432 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: police began to search through the home, they pulled back 433 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: part of the wall. Uh, that was that was kind 434 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: of hidden and they discovered what turned out to be 435 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: an s K S rifle that actually fires uh this 436 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: same uh, the same shell case in that they found 437 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: the same the same AMMO that they found uh with 438 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: the spent spent brass at the scene, and so that 439 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: was a specific tie back uh to these injuries UM 440 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: that Bart had sustained. He had uh. The forensic pathologist 441 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: actually testified that one of the rounds UM traveled through 442 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: his spine, smashed it and cut through his spinal cord um, 443 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: quite horrific. And there's evidence that there was an attempt 444 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: to clean up. But as we know, UH, it doesn't 445 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: matter how much you clean up nowadays, we're going to 446 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: be able to find The forensic community is going to 447 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: be able to find blood. In this case, they did. 448 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: They found a treasure trove of blood at the scene, 449 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: and as you rightly mentioned, Jackie, this is a real 450 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: interesting uh point here they found Bart and Christa's blood 451 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: droplets and they identified those through DNA on the exterior 452 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: of a pair of shoes there. But guess what they did. 453 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: They swabbed the interior of the shoe and guess what 454 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: The only DNA was that they found on the interior 455 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: this year, those chandlers, and so you've got this kind 456 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: of odd marriage between a son and his parents and 457 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: death where there uh, their evidence is being borne out 458 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: in shoes that he utilized as he was taking the 459 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: bodies of part in your home. You said something very 460 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: specific there, Joe, talking about blood droplets. One of the 461 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: things that I have learned from listening to you and 462 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:41,719 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is there's a difference in the way blood falls. 463 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: Can you explain that to me? Yeah, absolutely, Jackie will 464 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: will get you know, you can have various forms of 465 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: blood staining that take place. You have like a dynamic form, 466 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: of very dynamic form where we measure velocity, where we'll 467 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: talk about low velocity. If you think and kind of 468 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: break this down for you, think about low velocity blood staining. 469 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: That's gonna be where someone let's say, for instance, is punched, Okay, 470 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: that's about as much velocity as a human punch could sustain, 471 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: or maybe a stump Okay, the blood droplets will be 472 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: rather big. Then you go up to a medium velocity okay. 473 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: And the medium velocity is gonna be say, if an 474 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: individual is struck with a bat or they're hit with 475 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: a machete or something like that where you can leverage 476 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: force all right, that will be medium velocity. And then 477 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 1: you have high velocity, which is this kind of fine 478 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: particular or histamine like spray that comes off and that's 479 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: generally associated and it's almost always associated with gunfire. Um. 480 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: And so those are the three types of dynamic blood 481 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: staining that we have. Now you do have other types. 482 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: You have this kind of passive dripping. Say, for instance, 483 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: if back to somebody being punched, if you have a 484 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: bloody nose, and many people have as you're standing there 485 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: in the blood it is falling from your nose, that's 486 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: kind of a passive droplet and the droplets remained large 487 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. And then you have transfer blood, 488 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: which is where you brush up against something or you 489 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: grab something and blood is transferred onto a surface. So 490 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: all of these types of blood droplets and blood staining 491 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: are very specific, and somebody that is a blood expert 492 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: can actually kind of ferret through this and understand this, 493 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: and they can actually tell a tale. So if you 494 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: have blood droplets on a shoe, say, for instance, in 495 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: this case, the thing that you want to think about, well, 496 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: we know that there was a fire, I'm involved, right. 497 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: So is it a high velocity blood stain where you 498 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: have this kind of fine histam and spray that's on 499 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: the surface of the shoe and and kind of on 500 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: the tongue of the shoe and this sort of thing. 501 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: Or is it this kind of passive dripping that's taking 502 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: place as if you were, say, for instance, sawing or 503 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: remain all right? Or is it a transfer? Is this 504 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: a transfer where for instance, you got a bloody surface, 505 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: say like an arm uh that's been dismembered or taken 506 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: away from a body, and you brush up against it 507 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: with your shoe and this creates this kind of swath, 508 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: this blood swath that's on the shoe itself, on the surface. 509 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: So we look at this and these the dynamics of 510 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: the blood itself can tell us a tale about what 511 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: actually happened. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body 512 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: backs