Speaker 1: Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon, a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon.
Speaker 1: I am your host Shane Bacon in a fun one Today.
Speaker 1: Michael Bamberger, author of The Second Life of Tiger Woods,
Speaker 1: which came out yesterday, joins too simply discuss Tiger Woods.
Speaker 1: What better during this time in human history than to
Speaker 1: have a book come out about the most interesting golfer
Speaker 1: maybe athlete in the last years. It's a It's a
Speaker 1: great read. It takes you through not just the two
Speaker 1: thousand nineteen masters, of course that would be in professional golf,
Speaker 1: his second life, but takes you through simply Tiger is
Speaker 1: a human being and what's been different over the last
Speaker 1: two or three years versus how he was when he
Speaker 1: came out as a professional, and all of the things
Speaker 1: that have changed, all of the things that have played
Speaker 1: into his life that have led to those changes. An
Speaker 1: unbelievable read. I urge you to pick it up, order online,
Speaker 1: or just get it on your Kindle or whatever device
Speaker 1: you read on. I loved it, couldn't put it down,
Speaker 1: knocked it out in a couple of days. I think
Speaker 1: you will enjoy it as well, if you're a fan
Speaker 1: of golf, which you probably are if you listening to
Speaker 1: this podcast, and if you're a fan of Tiger Woods,
Speaker 1: which maybe you are. If you're listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: you're gonna enjoy the book, So pick it up. Bamburger
Speaker 1: was great. Always love chatting with them first time on
Speaker 1: the podcast, and uh and yeah, we went a lot
Speaker 1: longer than maybe I thought we would because we had
Speaker 1: a lot to talk about. Hopefully you guys are staying
Speaker 1: sane and keeping yourself safe and being smart during this
Speaker 1: unreal time in our history. I know it's it's been.
Speaker 1: There have been days that have been testing, there have
Speaker 1: been days that have seemed to kind of roll by,
Speaker 1: and all the while, we are, at least in my household,
Speaker 1: trying to follow all the gold guidelines that have been
Speaker 1: put out. And I hope you're doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: Because we can get through this as a group, as
Speaker 1: a society, as a country, as a world. I know
Speaker 1: we can do it. I'm trying to stay positive. Hopefully
Speaker 1: you are as well. One last thing for we get
Speaker 1: to Michael, if you haven't checked out, get a grip.
Speaker 1: That's my new. I guess new is news still fair?
Speaker 1: To say my quota. I just did quote new I
Speaker 1: did air quotes my new golf podcast with PJ Tour
Speaker 1: winner Max Homa. Max and I have had now ten
Speaker 1: episodes of Get a Grip. We try to do one
Speaker 1: once a week. Of course, the early ones were a
Speaker 1: little bit more current golf specific. The last few have
Speaker 1: been a little bit more all over the place. But
Speaker 1: we're trying to have some fun with it. We have
Speaker 1: started to do read your Questions, and we have started
Speaker 1: to do some lists like favorite nicknames in sports history
Speaker 1: and and all of that. So we're trying to have
Speaker 1: a little bit of fun and pass the time and
Speaker 1: give people something to listen to. Of course, as Quarantine
Speaker 1: continues on, that's enough for me. Let's get to Michael
Speaker 1: and we welcome to the clubhouse for the first time.
Speaker 1: Michael Bamberger, author of now Out The Second Life of
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods. Of course, Michael the scene writery Golf Magazine
Speaker 1: and golf dot Com, and Michael, I want to start
Speaker 1: with this. They talk a lot about the smaller the ball,
Speaker 1: the better the story. I've always felt the more famous
Speaker 1: the person, the tougher the profile, because we know so
Speaker 1: much about him. Why would you want to take on
Speaker 1: a Tiger Woods profile a Tiger Woods book. That is
Speaker 1: a great question. Uh. Gary Dematto uh, writing up the
Speaker 1: book UH for one of the Wisconsin Golf or his
Speaker 1: own Wisconsin Golf publication, said there have been millions of
Speaker 1: words written about this guy? Do we really need eighty
Speaker 1: five thousand more? And it was and it was funny
Speaker 1: that he said that, because I've written a million words
Speaker 1: about this guy, and I wondered myself if we need
Speaker 1: eighty five thousand more? And I guess the answer is
Speaker 1: there's a lot of differints to answer, but one concise
Speaker 1: answer would be there was a very definitive biography. You
Speaker 1: probably read a Shane uh that came out two years ago,
Speaker 1: just called Tiger by Jeff Benedict and armed contained. It's
Speaker 1: a really find book. Uh. And as a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: I would say it's a starting point if you haven't
Speaker 1: read any books about Tiger. Would say that book and
Speaker 1: and the and the Haney book, to me would be
Speaker 1: the first two books that I would read. But it's big.
Speaker 1: But a lot has happened since that book came out,
Speaker 1: and so this book really covers a two year period
Speaker 1: in Tiger Woods. This life that is extraordinary on an
Speaker 1: athletic level and on a human level. Well, that leads
Speaker 1: to one of my next questions. You know you you
Speaker 1: mentioned Haney the big miss. Of course, the Tiger book
Speaker 1: that you reference first is a deep, deep dive into
Speaker 1: everything you'd ever want to know and probably some stuff
Speaker 1: maybe you don't about Tiger. When you decided to take
Speaker 1: on this project, and I know you're a reader, I
Speaker 1: know you obviously pay attention to that world. How many
Speaker 1: Tiger books did you make sure that you had read
Speaker 1: and finished before starting your project? Well? Zero, because uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I read the Benedict book, and I read
Speaker 1: the Haney book, and I've read some of the other books,
Speaker 1: so you know, I'm well at air of what of
Speaker 1: what they have. But once I started writing my own book,
Speaker 1: and even started thinking about writing my own book, I
Speaker 1: didn't pay occasion. I would definitely go back to the
Speaker 1: Benedict Cataian book because they had so much information and
Speaker 1: just be at the index. In terms of sitting down
Speaker 1: and absorbing somebody else's take on Tiger, I didn't go
Speaker 1: there at all because I didn't I didn't want it
Speaker 1: in my head. So Tiger Woods, this is a guy
Speaker 1: that has been in your life for the better part
Speaker 1: of twenty years, if not longer, maybe twenty five years,
Speaker 1: if you will, if maybe even into the early junior ams.
Speaker 1: You know, when he was doing stuff we hadn't seen before.
Speaker 1: The title of your book is the Second Life of
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods. I feel like that could be taken in
Speaker 1: so many different ways. I've I've watched Tiger's life changed
Speaker 1: dramatically day to day, night tonight, headline to headline. This
Speaker 1: is a guy that everything that has happened personally professionally
Speaker 1: we have absorbed over the last twenty years of his
Speaker 1: professional rear. You're calling this the second life. I feel
Speaker 1: like the main focus of that title is simply about
Speaker 1: him professionally. But as I as I dove deeper and
Speaker 1: deeper into your book, I felt that the Second Life
Speaker 1: of Tiger, at least the way you presented it, was
Speaker 1: his personality. I mean, this is a guy that came
Speaker 1: into our lives a stone faced killer on the golf course,
Speaker 1: and now he's a guy that will answer questions, that
Speaker 1: does certain things I loved. At the very end of
Speaker 1: your book, you said you mentioned a note Greg Norman
Speaker 1: at handed Tiger and Tiger never said anything about it,
Speaker 1: about the win, and one of the last few pages
Speaker 1: of the book, you said, you know, Tiger saw Greg
Speaker 1: and thanked him for the note. It were those, there
Speaker 1: were those little tidbits that made you feel like the
Speaker 1: second life of Tiger wasn't anything about his golf. It
Speaker 1: was all about how he's presented now and how he
Speaker 1: approaches life. Well, that's a very good insight, I would
Speaker 1: I agree with all of that. Uh, you know what
Speaker 1: you know from having read the book. My take on
Speaker 1: the idea of the second life of Tiger Woods actually
Speaker 1: having a starting date in my mind, uh, in my writing.
Speaker 1: In other words, you know, I don't know this was
Speaker 1: sound self absorbed, but this is what authors often do.
Speaker 1: My take is that his second life began the day
Speaker 1: he was arrested on that horrible Memorial Day night in
Speaker 1: a in two thousand and seventeen, and he had to
Speaker 1: he was really at a cross roads. Uh. I have
Speaker 1: a personal take on the sex scandal, which you know,
Speaker 1: in one sense was you know, a tragedy for Ellen
Speaker 1: and uh and and his in his family life, but
Speaker 1: none of our business. A lot of people think that, oh,
Speaker 1: when he came back from that went to rehab after that,
Speaker 1: came back from that that that was maybe you know,
Speaker 1: a new chapter in the in the in the Life
Speaker 1: and Times of Tiger Woods. I don't really think it was.
Speaker 1: I think that I think the real moment of reckoning
Speaker 1: came on that Memorial Day in two thousand and seventeen. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I think he had to dig deep and find
Speaker 1: out who he really was. So all the things Shane
Speaker 1: that you just talked about, expressing more gratitude in in interviews,
Speaker 1: being more patient with fans, being more engaged with officials
Speaker 1: and tournament sponsors and and other players. Um, I think
Speaker 1: that all is a function of him digging deeper into
Speaker 1: who he really is, and uh and shedding some of
Speaker 1: that you know, stone cold killer that you just described,
Speaker 1: and uh and finding a humanity that some of us
Speaker 1: really would never have might not have ever known really
Speaker 1: existed when you rewatch the two thousand nineteen Masters. And
Speaker 1: we'll talk a lot about that, because that was the
Speaker 1: victory that that weaved itself through your book. Was his
Speaker 1: his fifteenth major, finally getting that Masters in two thousand nineteen,
Speaker 1: you know, the last obviously major, coming Tory Pines, when
Speaker 1: HD was barely a thing. I mean when you were
Speaker 1: we were watched it a couple of weekends ago. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a lot different in O eight it is in nineteen.
Speaker 1: But I always, you know, when I close my eyes
Speaker 1: and think of Tiger Woods, and I think of Tiger
Speaker 1: Woods the golfer. You know, I go to moments, the
Speaker 1: huge fist pump at Sawgrass when he was playing in
Speaker 1: the Ameter, and I think of you know, the celebrations
Speaker 1: throwing his hat at bay Hill, you know, the two
Speaker 1: fists up in the air to get into the playoff
Speaker 1: with Rocko. The one thing that I continually noticed that
Speaker 1: Sunday at Augusta was how that none of those things happened.
Speaker 1: It was it was almost like he had a full
Speaker 1: cell phone battery of of ability that day. This is
Speaker 1: what I have in me. I can't waste any of
Speaker 1: it because I've got to get my cell phone to
Speaker 1: the end of the day with battery power. And then
Speaker 1: it all came out when he finally won on the
Speaker 1: eighteenth Green. But everything about that Sunday was just a
Speaker 1: little bit different. I mean, three stomes going off early.
Speaker 1: You know, it's Tiger, He's there, but he's chasing and
Speaker 1: he's chasing a guy that face Tiger in a major
Speaker 1: championship the year before and wasn't aired. It is so
Speaker 1: interesting to see this quote unquote new Tiger and how
Speaker 1: he approaches these huge moments versus what we've seen for
Speaker 1: the better part of his career. All right, Shane, now
Speaker 1: now you're making me mad. I mean, it's bad enough
Speaker 1: that you're such a good golfer, you're such a handsome guy,
Speaker 1: but now you're coming up with analogies that a way
Speaker 1: better than I. I'm a guy that always has a
Speaker 1: dead cell phone battery, so it makes total sense to me.
Speaker 1: That's that's perfect. I would completely agree with that he
Speaker 1: was playing I mean, just to get it down into
Speaker 1: the mechanics of Sunday at Augusta. Everything you said, I
Speaker 1: completely agree with. Uh, But he was playing chess. Now
Speaker 1: you're not playing chess that moment. You know you're on
Speaker 1: seventeen team. You got to drill on. That's pure athleticism.
Speaker 1: But everything else is chess, and chess requires tremendous reservoirs
Speaker 1: of of ptitions and UH and and intellectual output, and
Speaker 1: then you gotta go when it's time to go. So
Speaker 1: I think you're right. He was pacing himself all the while.
Speaker 1: He knew he was the guy with the four coats
Speaker 1: and and none of those guys had any and that
Speaker 1: gave big advantage, and that mistakes would be made by others,
Speaker 1: and if he could avoid making mistakes, uh, that he
Speaker 1: could get to the house with a little bit of
Speaker 1: charged left in that battery. And as we saw, there
Speaker 1: was a very little left in that battery. And luckily
Speaker 1: for him, uh, it didn't go to a playoff, because
Speaker 1: who knows what those fresher younger players might have done,
Speaker 1: uh in a playoff. Yeah, you you talked a little
Speaker 1: bit about that. You mentioned his fear of that Bogey
Speaker 1: bogey finish at Augusta. We saw it against De Marco.
Speaker 1: You know, he chips in and things go crazy. And
Speaker 1: this goes back a little bit to the energy, right,
Speaker 1: that was so much energy he used in celebration and
Speaker 1: firing up the crowd him and Stevie high five and
Speaker 1: kind of missing the high five. But then he bogey's
Speaker 1: seventeen and eighteen. It was a little bit like Kenny
Speaker 1: Perry and all of a sudden he's in a playoff
Speaker 1: and now he's got to refocus, re click in. And
Speaker 1: of course he won that Masters as well. But I'm
Speaker 1: with you, he did not win any extra holes. He
Speaker 1: wanted that thing to end, and it ended. I want
Speaker 1: to go back to the book. Just early on you
Speaker 1: talk a little. I mentioned Greg Norman already. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure I ever understood how close Tiger in his life
Speaker 1: and his career followed what Norman did in his life
Speaker 1: and his career. Well, how clearly, how closely Tiger followed.
Speaker 1: Oh are you talking about the mechanics of hiring Steve Williams.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of that. There were so many
Speaker 1: similarities with those two guys. And then he and then
Speaker 1: he hired Norman's lawn guy. And by the way, to
Speaker 1: call him a lawn guy an understatement. It's ridiculous art.
Speaker 1: He's an artist with a lawnmower or estate managers. Maybe
Speaker 1: I might be the right term. I'm not man sure. Yes, Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, start with Butch Harmon. Start with the fact
Speaker 1: that Greg Norman was the best player in the world,
Speaker 1: drove the ball on a string, had all the shots
Speaker 1: pretty much, uh, and had Butch Harmon as a seat.
Speaker 1: And then uh, it was the number one player in
Speaker 1: the world, and every which way that Tiger could supplant
Speaker 1: the guy. And he goes back to what you said earlier,
Speaker 1: shaneem of being a stone cold killer. He was going
Speaker 1: to supplant him. Uh so uh teacher, Uh state residents
Speaker 1: approach to practice. You know, Butch says this all the time,
Speaker 1: or he used to. Uh, you know, the hardest working
Speaker 1: student he ever had was Greg Norman until he until
Speaker 1: he had developed a relationship with this teenage golfer Tiger Woods,
Speaker 1: and Tiger Woods had more capacity for work and more
Speaker 1: ability to absorb information than even Greg Norman. Uh. It's
Speaker 1: kind of weird because you know, you know, Greg was
Speaker 1: the only one, you know, the two British opens his majors.
Speaker 1: He's sort of gotten a short shrift and you know
Speaker 1: he's got such a big personality stort of gott a
Speaker 1: short shrift here. But before there was Tiger, there was Norman. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and we always here, you know, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: thirty six. I didn't have a chance to watch a
Speaker 1: lot of the Greg Norman prime days, but he was
Speaker 1: the type of player that dominated with his distance, dominated
Speaker 1: with his ball striking. Brad Faxton's told me a story
Speaker 1: that he was playing I think Brad and Norman were
Speaker 1: playing in a practice round and Brad, you know, famously
Speaker 1: not a great driver. The golf ball was spraying it
Speaker 1: a little bit all over the place, and I guess
Speaker 1: Norman went up to Butch and goes, is this guy
Speaker 1: a pro? And Butch goes, yeah, he's beating you by two.
Speaker 1: You know, Norman was the hit it down the middle
Speaker 1: of the fairway, hit it three and twenty yards, had
Speaker 1: that look on his face all the time. But the differences,
Speaker 1: of course being that Norman, when it seemed like the
Speaker 1: brakes were gonna go his way, they didn't, And with Tiger,
Speaker 1: the brakes always always went his way. And it even
Speaker 1: happened in nineteen. I mean, he's got two guys, he's
Speaker 1: got a guy in front of him. In two thousand nineteen,
Speaker 1: they're all chasing the same goal and all these guys
Speaker 1: rinted and Tigers the guy that plays it to the
Speaker 1: middle of the green smartly on twelve. And that was
Speaker 1: really the story of that championship. Yes, although sometimes people
Speaker 1: forget about what a mess mullinar he played the fifteen
Speaker 1: bad first I did. I did as well. When I
Speaker 1: was reading the book that is altered just a quick
Speaker 1: funny note. Since you work in TV, you'll especially appreciate
Speaker 1: the same. When um, when Harrington won that second Open
Speaker 1: that was at Birkdale, correct and uh. And he was,
Speaker 1: I believe playing with Norman in the fourth round, and
Speaker 1: Norman was newly married to Christie Evert and he I
Speaker 1: think he would have been I'm sure he would have
Speaker 1: been the oldest winner of a major. Could he have
Speaker 1: pulled it off? And his putting stroke is spectacular And
Speaker 1: fathers doing the commentary, I don't know for whom, but
Speaker 1: I know I heard him say this, uh and uh,
Speaker 1: and he looks at Norman's putting stroke and he says,
Speaker 1: it's not fair. It's there's absolutely no yipp in it whatsoever.
Speaker 1: A little a little bit of what we are we
Speaker 1: are seeing and continue to see with Tiger. One thing
Speaker 1: and again one of my favorite things about there's two
Speaker 1: things I love about your writing style. And I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say it. I continually believe you're one
Speaker 1: of the best, if not the best, that covers this
Speaker 1: beat in the entire world at what you do. So
Speaker 1: reading a book that you and obviously a lot of
Speaker 1: time on was a treat for me. But two things
Speaker 1: you do that are amazing. One is you're just a
Speaker 1: perfect word smith. Let me just give people an example.
Speaker 1: You were talking about Tiger and last year at the
Speaker 1: Masters and on Sunday, correct me if I'm wrong here,
Speaker 1: but on Sunday before the Masters. So that's the drive,
Speaker 1: chip and put day. The only people allowed on the
Speaker 1: big course, if you will, are members and past champions.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Yes, that's so. Tiger was playing an
Speaker 1: afternoon nine whole practice around and you wrote this and
Speaker 1: I just loved it. I screened. I had to take
Speaker 1: a picture of the page. You said. The PGA Tour
Speaker 1: produces a mountain of stats under headlines like strokes gained
Speaker 1: putting and strokes gained ball striking. What nobody can measure
Speaker 1: is strokes gained thinking, strokes gained preparing, strokes gained imagining,
Speaker 1: and you you just felt like what you were seeing
Speaker 1: with Tiger, he just had a couple of edges and
Speaker 1: a putter, and he was out there going over a
Speaker 1: golf course that we all know he understands and has
Speaker 1: seen more than anybody in the field, maybe outside of
Speaker 1: Phil Mickelson. Yet he's out there this Sunday before the Masters,
Speaker 1: just just using everything he can, using all the time
Speaker 1: allowed to prepare for what he knew was a chance
Speaker 1: at another major championship. Well shame. First off, I want
Speaker 1: to thank you for those that extraordinarily generous uh comment
Speaker 1: about my writing. I really really appreciate it. And then uh,
Speaker 1: and you you know this, but other others wouldn't. Any
Speaker 1: writer nonfiction gets a lot of help and I've got
Speaker 1: a lot of and uh and and too, so two
Speaker 1: things that come to mind when you're talking about that. Uh. No,
Speaker 1: of course I wasn't out there walking with Tiger woods
Speaker 1: and play the nine holes. But you know, between talking
Speaker 1: a little bit, hearing Tiger talk about it, a little bit,
Speaker 1: hearing Joe Kaba talk about it, Chaldo who was out there,
Speaker 1: Terry Holt, Bernard Langer's caddy, who's out there? So they
Speaker 1: all these sources together helped me get a deeper sense
Speaker 1: of what it was. But Faldo was the most selpful
Speaker 1: because because he saw it through a champion's eyes, that
Speaker 1: he understood what I might not have understood. How to
Speaker 1: not talked to Faldo, uh that he was getting in
Speaker 1: the mood, in the mood to play that that golf course. Uh,
Speaker 1: so you do get so so I do want to
Speaker 1: acknowledge all the help that a nonfiction marter gets, whereas
Speaker 1: the picture writers, you know, often just sitting in the room,
Speaker 1: although he or she gets a lot of help too.
Speaker 1: And then another thing, he said, I have no idea
Speaker 1: if the story is apocryphal or not, but even if
Speaker 1: it is, it conveys so much. There's a famous story
Speaker 1: about Jack Nicholiffs going to the driving range of the
Speaker 1: practice tea and uh and there's a ball sitting there
Speaker 1: and he stands over the ball with no club and
Speaker 1: he just looks at the ball, and then he walks
Speaker 1: back to the cliphouse. He says, yeah, I'm done for
Speaker 1: the day. And the point is, you know so much.
Speaker 1: I've never heard that one before. I have not, And
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't sound true. It doesn't sound big Jack,
Speaker 1: but but it does make it sounds a little bit
Speaker 1: more like Hogan. But it does make the point that
Speaker 1: that's at that level, when you've got the physical parts
Speaker 1: basically worked out, then it's how prepared are you mentally
Speaker 1: for what you want to do to the golf course?
Speaker 1: How much do you have a blueprint of what it's
Speaker 1: going to look like? And Tiger is the king of
Speaker 1: this and U And one one example that that comes
Speaker 1: to mind is was, now, let's see, he's won two
Speaker 1: opens at the old course. So this I'm I'm not
Speaker 1: remembering the year immediately. No, okay, not two thousand. That
Speaker 1: was his first of the second time. Okay, thank you,
Speaker 1: so oh five when he won the second one, and
Speaker 1: uh And it was a clinic and he came into
Speaker 1: the and he came into the depressed send. Everyone's leaning
Speaker 1: in and he starts the sentence with I'll tell you what,
Speaker 1: and people are leaking, you know, all the writers are
Speaker 1: leaning in. It's like, oh, Tiger is going to give
Speaker 1: us a revelation. And this is this is close to
Speaker 1: what he said before I went out there today. That
Speaker 1: was the best warm obsession I've had in years, or
Speaker 1: you know, the best warm obsession I had in my life.
Speaker 1: And everyone's like, oh man, could you possibly give us
Speaker 1: something we can use? Uh. I remember just sinkly thinking
Speaker 1: it was boring, but it was truthful. In other words,
Speaker 1: he had played the golf course in his mind and
Speaker 1: played the shots that he thought he was going to
Speaker 1: need in the on the practice tea, and then it
Speaker 1: was just a simple question of of executing. It's not
Speaker 1: so simple, but it is a question of executing it. Uh,
Speaker 1: that's how his mind works. And uh, it's not colorful
Speaker 1: and it's not romantic like seve A or Trevino or
Speaker 1: you know, remember else you might put in that group,
Speaker 1: but it is Tiger. And the proof of the pudding
Speaker 1: is what two tour wins, including fifteen major championships. So
Speaker 1: it's pretty hard to beat that. Yeah, the focus of
Speaker 1: this book in terms of golf is of course the
Speaker 1: Masters last year. But I I guess i'd maybe either
Speaker 1: I don't remember how important it was or I have
Speaker 1: glossed over it considering what else had happened in two
Speaker 1: thousand and eighteen. But something I felt like he brought
Speaker 1: up well was the two thousand eighteen Honda and just
Speaker 1: the way Tiger played that week, it seemed like that
Speaker 1: was what the world, the Tiger fans, the golf fans
Speaker 1: that follow this guy, that was really what we were
Speaker 1: waiting for. Yes, and the that was the special week
Speaker 1: that that hont Tournament. I've always enjoyed that hond Tournament
Speaker 1: and going all the way back to Eagle Trace days.
Speaker 1: But there's something about it. But so well, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: shame you have your such a noledgeal golfers and uh
Speaker 1: but you know, for for more casual gopers, they're they're
Speaker 1: owed by the driving game always, and and and some
Speaker 1: of the other aspects. But at at tigers level, the
Speaker 1: thing that really gets people's attention is ability to hit
Speaker 1: irons on the face the distance you want to hit them,
Speaker 1: because they're going to hit them left and right, they're
Speaker 1: gonna they're they're not gonna be too far off there there.
Speaker 1: That part is kind of mechanical. But but to hit
Speaker 1: it to the link you want to hit it, you know,
Speaker 1: as as as Johnny Miller used to say, you know,
Speaker 1: in my prime, I could distinguish from one seventy six
Speaker 1: and one seventy seven. Uh, well, that's gonna leave you
Speaker 1: with a make up a put. So that that was
Speaker 1: the first thing I saw at that Honda tournament, aside
Speaker 1: from some other cultural things that were extremely interesting. But
Speaker 1: just to pass forward there per minute, so all the
Speaker 1: you know, you know whatever two roughly eighty shots that
Speaker 1: he played are fewer than that. Uh. At Augusta last year.
Speaker 1: One of the ones that stands up most of my
Speaker 1: mind is the second shot five iron on Sunday from
Speaker 1: the right side of the Ferrway on fifteen two hundred
Speaker 1: forty yards raw shot piercing. You know when I say
Speaker 1: draw show, I mean like three yards of draw sat
Speaker 1: of the green is gonna take that slope and go
Speaker 1: down there. And the absolute worst score this guy is
Speaker 1: gonna make is four. Well, four is huge. Four is
Speaker 1: way better than seven. You know, four windsy the tournament.
Speaker 1: So you know how Tiger talks about the the t
Speaker 1: shot and seventeen blah blah blah. But I mean the
Speaker 1: purity of that's now, that's that's a bread and butter
Speaker 1: shot form. It's not really even a hard shot form.
Speaker 1: But there aren't that many people play. And then another
Speaker 1: quick one that comes to and I'm just blanking here,
Speaker 1: but this was the first or second round. I think
Speaker 1: it was the well, I just can't remember right now,
Speaker 1: but the first or second round he drove it in
Speaker 1: the green side excuse me, the fairway bunker on the
Speaker 1: left side of eighteen. And you know there's a lip there,
Speaker 1: it's nasty, it's straight up a hill and he's in there,
Speaker 1: I think with the seven iron, and and there are
Speaker 1: so few I mean you're a really good golfer and
Speaker 1: you're a really foot person, and you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know your your game, won't have to know, but but
Speaker 1: the number of people who could actually advance a golf
Speaker 1: ball from that trap to the back right of the
Speaker 1: green from where you could to put it's a very
Speaker 1: short list. So the skill set of hitting an iron lush,
Speaker 1: the distance you want to hit it and need to
Speaker 1: hit it um is off the charts. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: that story brings up to your point of again, you
Speaker 1: said it to start, it was like he was playing
Speaker 1: chess on Sunday against everybody else, and maybe he's been
Speaker 1: playing chess against everybody his entire life, and we're just
Speaker 1: starting to realize how good he is a chess. But
Speaker 1: I think it was Hogan. It's a story of Hogan
Speaker 1: playing fifteen at Augusta with an amateur and he laid up.
Speaker 1: He was a whole bunch under par He laid up
Speaker 1: and he knocked on the green and made birdie and
Speaker 1: the amateur asked him why didn't go for it? And
Speaker 1: I think Hogan stone faced of course as he was
Speaker 1: said I didn't need eagle, you know, And I just
Speaker 1: felt like that's the same point here. Tiger would have
Speaker 1: loved to make three there, but he didn't need three.
Speaker 1: You know, he's I, I just want to make four.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hit the exact shot I need to hit.
Speaker 1: And the distance control thing with him his entire career.
Speaker 1: You know how people say it's your it's your favorite
Speaker 1: pros favorite pro. I feel like Tiger's iron game as
Speaker 1: everybody's favorite pros favorite aspect of any golfer in the
Speaker 1: history of the game was his Tiger's continued ability to
Speaker 1: be able to hit iron shots exactly where he wants them. Well,
Speaker 1: that's well said. I totally agree with that. And now, Butch,
Speaker 1: where he on the phone, I think would would would
Speaker 1: add this to the conversation. In at twenty one, in
Speaker 1: his first major as a professional, he wins the Masters
Speaker 1: by twelve shots. Now, any normal person of thousands going
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, I've got this. All I have to
Speaker 1: do is hold on to what I have and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna win for a long time to come. And what
Speaker 1: Butch Harmon said, and with Tiger acknowledged to be true
Speaker 1: or I'm not sure what the orders might have been
Speaker 1: the other way around, was that I am really good
Speaker 1: at golf. But I've got a distance control problem with
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was I think it was
Speaker 1: really the wedge. But let's say eight nine wedge sandwich possibly,
Speaker 1: And uh, and I've got if I'm going to dominate
Speaker 1: for a long time, I've got to get better at that.
Speaker 1: And so who would think that you would want to
Speaker 1: do make any changes to the swing that just allowed
Speaker 1: you to win a Master's by twelve shots? Who would
Speaker 1: make And it just gets the thing that we're talking about.
Speaker 1: It was distance control with the shortest clubs. Uh, that
Speaker 1: was really what he worked on. And then we know
Speaker 1: what happened in two thousands. Yeah, I loved the part
Speaker 1: in the book you and this is just the golf
Speaker 1: dork in me. You love you dove into the Champions
Speaker 1: dinners at August Over the years, was that information always
Speaker 1: made public? Was that something that in the nineties and
Speaker 1: in the late eighties, was that information that they would
Speaker 1: tell the media and the public because now you know
Speaker 1: you you see the pictures posted on social media and
Speaker 1: they obviously aren't scared to reveal that information. But if
Speaker 1: it wasn't public, how much digging do you have to
Speaker 1: do to find out what meals were served. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, Shane, I think that menu has always
Speaker 1: been released. Uh, But I don't want this to come
Speaker 1: up off by being I hope this one sounded modest,
Speaker 1: but I would say the mechanics of how the dinner works,
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think I've read that anywhere before,
Speaker 1: you know, typing it up for for for this book.
Speaker 1: And I'm just you know, as as I'm sure the
Speaker 1: same is true for you. I'm fortunate to have relations,
Speaker 1: you know, trusting relationships with a lot of people who
Speaker 1: have who have won that, uh won that tournament and
Speaker 1: are at that dinner. So I was able to get
Speaker 1: a good sense of what that dinner is like. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it seemed like and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: lean on you here. It seems like Vj's dinner is
Speaker 1: kind of the consensus goat of the champions inners. There
Speaker 1: that fair. I think it's only for the foodies, uh okay,
Speaker 1: And I don't think and I don't think there were
Speaker 1: that many foodies among I don't think Jack Nicholas is
Speaker 1: a foodie. I don't think Gary players. I think they're like,
Speaker 1: give me a piece of Gary players like bring me
Speaker 1: the cod no sauce, and Jack's like, you know, bring
Speaker 1: me the prime wrist with the burnets. Uh. But you
Speaker 1: do have you do have some I think, uh you
Speaker 1: know very much uh a loft the ball and seven
Speaker 1: before he died, of course uh uh faio uh are
Speaker 1: are very much um foodies and they appreciated DJ's effort.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that J was, but it evidently evidently is.
Speaker 1: But yes, I do, Yes, people do talk about that
Speaker 1: VJ dinner and the tie after he brought in from Atlanta.
Speaker 1: So as a writer somebody that's laying out a book
Speaker 1: like this, I know you're doing hours and hours and
Speaker 1: hours of interviews. But something that I feel like, specifically
Speaker 1: to you, I love I talked about a couple of things.
Speaker 1: This is the other thing is how you'll sprinkle in
Speaker 1: quotes from something completely non golf related throughout the story
Speaker 1: to help hammer home your point. Let me give an example,
Speaker 1: because this is one of my favorites. You were you
Speaker 1: were talking about winning and the Masters, and and you're
Speaker 1: talking about prep and how it's not the sexiest thing
Speaker 1: in the world, and you gave a war in Buffett
Speaker 1: quote about how he invested in brick and other durables.
Speaker 1: And you said, quote, try to contain your excitement, and
Speaker 1: it was just such a perfect quote for the moment.
Speaker 1: How are you grabbing these quotes? How many quotes do
Speaker 1: you have in your brain? Mr? Bamburger? Well they float around,
Speaker 1: But let's let's make a nod to uh by acquaintance
Speaker 1: slash friend and I think maybe you're buss uh. Mark
Speaker 1: Loomis here. Mark Loomis is the producer of you help
Speaker 1: me if I don't have the title correct. Mark Lomis
Speaker 1: is the producer of golf for for the Fox broadcast,
Speaker 1: so he handles all the U. S J events that
Speaker 1: you see on Fox, and Shane works with him very closely.
Speaker 1: If I may speak to your Shane and uh, and
Speaker 1: I've had the pleasure work machine with well Will Shane
Speaker 1: as well. But what I meant to say is Mark.
Speaker 1: Mark's mother is a legend now in in early nineties,
Speaker 1: her name is Carol Loomis. Now many would not know,
Speaker 1: but many would know that Carol Loomis, among many other things,
Speaker 1: is Warren Buffett's ghostwriter. So when you see some and
Speaker 1: was was a longtime writer for different Time inc. Magazines,
Speaker 1: Most most notably uh Fortune Business, you know the time
Speaker 1: magazine of the business world, Fortune and anyway. Uh So
Speaker 1: some of these legendary lines like, uh, you know this
Speaker 1: year we invested in cement, try to continue your excitement.
Speaker 1: I don't know specifically about that line, but Mark's mother,
Speaker 1: Carol Loomis fingerprints are all over some of these, uh
Speaker 1: some of these Buffet ones. So uh so that's where
Speaker 1: that one comes from. And uh yeah, they do. They
Speaker 1: float around in my head. They're not written down anywhere.
Speaker 1: But I go to a lot of movies, I read
Speaker 1: a lot of books, and and uh I do retain
Speaker 1: things that that amused me or you know, one of one.
Speaker 1: Another one of Buffetts things is if you know, this
Speaker 1: is something only a really rich person can say. If
Speaker 1: you see an investment you like, don't take a child's portion.
Speaker 1: Well that's great. If you've got a few billion dollars
Speaker 1: to in, that's right. You can dive into a little easier. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. When when you don't worry about what your
Speaker 1: debit card amount is, he probably hasn't checked his debit
Speaker 1: card statement too much over the years. Yeah, exactly. I
Speaker 1: was very impressed at one point when I learned the
Speaker 1: Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett's housekeeper came by monthly twice a month,
Speaker 1: and you know, well ours came once a week. So
Speaker 1: I said to my Christine, you know, isn't it funny
Speaker 1: Warren Buffett's I'm glad our house comes once week because
Speaker 1: it makes everything nicer than anyway. We digress. We're gonna
Speaker 1: take a quick break and be right back. I want
Speaker 1: to get to Tiger and something you pointed out that
Speaker 1: I never knew and I had no idea about, and
Speaker 1: now it makes total sense. We knew that Tiger in Majors,
Speaker 1: when he had one hand around the trophy going into
Speaker 1: the weekend, he basically won. I never knew how solidly
Speaker 1: he played on Saturday, specifically against whomever he was paired with.
Speaker 1: You framed it as moving day Saturday. It was almost
Speaker 1: like a match played day for Tiger, and his record
Speaker 1: nearly flawless against the person next to him that day.
Speaker 1: He will kill the versit he's playing with on Saturday. Well,
Speaker 1: look if if Tiger, if Tiger is contending, that means
Speaker 1: the guy that he's playing with on Saturdays contending as well.
Speaker 1: Tiger doesn't wanna have to worry about that guy comes Sunday,
Speaker 1: so he will bury that guy. Now, I've asked Tiger
Speaker 1: about this and he and he denies it. But you know,
Speaker 1: Tiger keeps his methods very close to the best, and
Speaker 1: I don't blame him at all all for that. Uh.
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is an inside or not,
Speaker 1: but one of the things that I picked up about
Speaker 1: Tiger really only in the writing of this book was
Speaker 1: that Tiger mastered match play. He won three straight U
Speaker 1: S Juniors, as you know, and that followed by three
Speaker 1: straight U S m s. It's completely a heard of
Speaker 1: that you could do that for six straight years. So
Speaker 1: he came onto the PGA Tour having figured out match
Speaker 1: play golfle match play golf is boxing, knock the guy
Speaker 1: out that you're playing, and and tournament golf of course
Speaker 1: is very different. But what I think Tiger was able
Speaker 1: to do, I mean, they're almost different games. Uh. I
Speaker 1: think what Tiger was able to do is hold on
Speaker 1: to that match play mentality, I'm going to bury this
Speaker 1: guy on Saturday, so I don't have to worry about
Speaker 1: him on Sunda day, and played the chess required of
Speaker 1: tournament golfer. You're playing the course and you're playing the
Speaker 1: whole field at the same time. So yes, it was
Speaker 1: very useful for him to be those guys on Saturday.
Speaker 1: And yes, the I mean and it's not just you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes absolutely destroyed the guy. And by the way, if
Speaker 1: you can do it, you know, one time, and you know,
Speaker 1: if you do it at the two thousand and six
Speaker 1: p J Championship wherever it was, and then you're gonna
Speaker 1: face that guy six years later on on a Sunday, Well,
Speaker 1: he's got him in the back of the mind. Or
Speaker 1: like this guy has no fun to play with when
Speaker 1: all the lights are on you. Yeah, Tony Fenow you
Speaker 1: you said you talked to Tony Fine a few months
Speaker 1: after the Masters, and he said he was on the
Speaker 1: range and he couldn't get out of his head that
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods was a couple of spots, you know, and
Speaker 1: he was gonna play with him in the final round
Speaker 1: of the Masters. This is the thing that he'd always
Speaker 1: wanted to do. And again, as as you said, Earl
Speaker 1: would always tell Tiger, let the legend grow. The legends
Speaker 1: just sitting there warming up and you're thinking about him,
Speaker 1: He's not thinking about you, right, And uh and and
Speaker 1: I think it's great that we're at a place right
Speaker 1: now where you have people like Tony Finow, uh justin
Speaker 1: Thomas Rory McRoy, Jordan's Speef h Francesco Mulinary who are
Speaker 1: actually willing to tell you a little bit about their
Speaker 1: internal lives because it makes the game more interesting for us.
Speaker 1: Of course, Tiger famously was not really willing to do that.
Speaker 1: And that's okay, you know, it's his his business and
Speaker 1: his approach, and uh, that's up to him. But but
Speaker 1: but but what what a truthful thing for Finelle to
Speaker 1: h to acknowledge and along the same lines and uh
Speaker 1: and and this is in the book, uh, which reminds
Speaker 1: me of quick secutly, my my friend Gary Nansickle form
Speaker 1: former colleague Sports Illustrated will always say, you want to
Speaker 1: win a writer store and promoter his book will say, well,
Speaker 1: as I say in pause the book, you know it's apology.
Speaker 1: But anyway, but I do say this in the book
Speaker 1: the book, Uh, that that wakes up on Sunday morning
Speaker 1: and he's getting dressed and he knows what he's gonna wear,
Speaker 1: and it's like you can't put on its. You know,
Speaker 1: it's probably dark, it's probably pre dawn because they're going
Speaker 1: off on Sunday morning, and you can't not think about
Speaker 1: how is this going to look with a green code on?
Speaker 1: You don't want to be thinking it, but you're a
Speaker 1: human being. Of course, Tiger Woods, he's got four coats.
Speaker 1: What's got one coat? But he's got four winds. He
Speaker 1: knows what that whole deal is like plus black and
Speaker 1: red and green. He knows that that whole thing that's right.
Speaker 1: He's not worried about a clash, he's not worried about
Speaker 1: Gosh's he's so, he's so, he's in the club forever.
Speaker 1: Mulinari has got the passing thought. And thank you, Francesco
Speaker 1: molinary On behalf of this writer for sharing with me
Speaker 1: so I could use it so um, but what an
Speaker 1: insight for what it's like to be in that moment
Speaker 1: on Sunday morning trying to do some by the way,
Speaker 1: and this is the guy won the Bridge showpen a
Speaker 1: few months earlier or a half year earlier. Was it
Speaker 1: Wise Cough or was it Miller who apparently had that
Speaker 1: thought crossed their mind on fifteen on Sunday before they
Speaker 1: hit in the water and they said it man green
Speaker 1: Jacket's gonna look good on me. I don't know that one.
Speaker 1: It could be either, but I know, I know wives
Speaker 1: Scott said on twelve, when you stood on twelve and
Speaker 1: those fans are close to when you're on the part
Speaker 1: three twelve, he's like, I felt, I felt naked of fryeball,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, and here's the best dress
Speaker 1: guy on tour with you know, the perfect posture and
Speaker 1: the perfect sweater and the Kashmir this, and you know,
Speaker 1: just the beautiful dresser and I felt naked. So yeah,
Speaker 1: they it's great that they're willing to admit their frailties.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that draws us all
Speaker 1: to the game, no matter what level which we play,
Speaker 1: is those frailties are basically the same for all of us.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why, you know, so many of
Speaker 1: the golf writers play as well, and the broadcasters as well,
Speaker 1: and to some degree, even though the stakes of course
Speaker 1: are way way different. But but what we do when
Speaker 1: they do are there are a lot of similarities, a
Speaker 1: lot of differences, but a lot of similarities as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: speak of similarities. One of the best debates in all
Speaker 1: of sports, I think, and of course the best debate
Speaker 1: in golf is Jack versus Tiger. You said this early
Speaker 1: in the book, and I guess I've never really thought
Speaker 1: about it. You were talking about their accomplishments in the
Speaker 1: major championships. You said, two men with three career Grand
Speaker 1: Slam So Tiger and Jack have won the Grand Slam
Speaker 1: three times over. Nobody else has won it twice over.
Speaker 1: So that's a good example of how much different they are.
Speaker 1: And then late in the book, one of the last
Speaker 1: things you talked about were these two. You said, Tiger
Speaker 1: Woods is the best player in history, you said, and
Speaker 1: I believe Jack is the greatest of all time. So
Speaker 1: you're You're kind of on both camps there, and I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm in the same camp as you dominance
Speaker 1: his ability to win. I feel like Tiger eclipse Jack,
Speaker 1: while Jack obviously has what Tiger cannot reach yet. Right, Shane,
Speaker 1: you we're looking at this the same way. Uh, to me, Jack,
Speaker 1: you know to be the greatest. You know, I'll leave
Speaker 1: used to say, you know, I'm the greatest of all time. Well,
Speaker 1: who really knows what that means, especially in boxing, because
Speaker 1: you've just got the one guy that you've got to beat,
Speaker 1: and you know, Uh, it's hard to compare the generations.
Speaker 1: But what does it mean to be the greatest of
Speaker 1: all time? What's I would say, it's the stamp you leave,
Speaker 1: you know, on your sport. If we're gonna you know,
Speaker 1: definancial athletes in this conversation, And I think Jack's stamp
Speaker 1: on golf is unmatched. I think Tiger's record is unmatched
Speaker 1: in part because and I know a lot of people
Speaker 1: disagree with this. Jack be a tremendous group of crusty
Speaker 1: tough men, you know, from Hubert Green and John Maffey,
Speaker 1: you know who aren't often part of the conversation. Of course,
Speaker 1: you know, Billy Casper and Arnold and Johnny Miller and
Speaker 1: other true legends of the game. Uh, Tiger be fewer
Speaker 1: of those kinds of personalities. But the population, the world
Speaker 1: population of super league golfers that Tiger had to be
Speaker 1: is vastly bigger. If you look at now, what is
Speaker 1: Jack Happy's got five p g A So when he
Speaker 1: won those pgs, well, he's beating a bunch of American
Speaker 1: golfers and a bunch of club pros. A bunch of
Speaker 1: club pros who could, on their best four days together,
Speaker 1: could never come within five or six or ten shots
Speaker 1: of Jack Nicholas on his for best days or even
Speaker 1: it's four average days. In other words, he's got so
Speaker 1: much of that field beat before you know the first
Speaker 1: shot is played Thursday morning, So Tigers beating a much deeper,
Speaker 1: deeper pool. But for overall impact on the game, I
Speaker 1: don't know how anyone can top Jack Nicholas because he,
Speaker 1: to me is the true heir of Jones in terms
Speaker 1: of the values of the game that transcend the actual
Speaker 1: planning of the game. And just to finish up this
Speaker 1: one thought, Arnold's career, it's overstated in terms of what
Speaker 1: he did. It was a tremendous, tremendous career. But we
Speaker 1: didn't win the career Grand Slam. Um uh. He didn't
Speaker 1: win all over the world like like Gary, like Garrett
Speaker 1: Player has done. But Arnold's overall stamp on the game
Speaker 1: is immeasurable because he lifted the game, and he lifted people.
Speaker 1: Uh uh. He made the game better. And that I know.
Speaker 1: None of this is definable, but it's deep in me
Speaker 1: my belief of what constitutes greatness, and that's why, among
Speaker 1: many other things that I could add to that, but
Speaker 1: that's why Jack is number one in r was way
Speaker 1: up there for me as well. A wild nugget in
Speaker 1: the book I found out about you nine rounds of
Speaker 1: golf with Trump? Who would have I ever thought of
Speaker 1: You're almost a double digits. Well, I've got. I meant
Speaker 1: nine and a half. I don't know what went one
Speaker 1: day we played eighteen, and then he went out for
Speaker 1: an emergency nine. That the West Bond Beach course where
Speaker 1: he's got twenty seven holes, which abuts the prison where
Speaker 1: Tiger actually was detained for a while. After that that
Speaker 1: horrible night, Well what happened there? Shame. The only reason
Speaker 1: that Trump want to play golf with me was that
Speaker 1: I was writing up his golf courses for Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 1: In other words, I had something he wanted, which was
Speaker 1: a good write up for about the courses in its
Speaker 1: owner for Sports Illustrated. So he wasn't gonna let me
Speaker 1: far out of my sight. And then he you know,
Speaker 1: he's a very he's a very congenial golf partner. We're
Speaker 1: not gonna do a whole political thing here, but just
Speaker 1: a limited to what it's like to play golf with
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. He's a lot of fun. To play with.
Speaker 1: It's not golf, as you and I know, and I'm
Speaker 1: a ninety shooter, but you know, if I tell you
Speaker 1: shoeed ninety three, I probably shot pretty close to ninety one.
Speaker 1: That's not the case with Trump, you know, because Trump
Speaker 1: plays like millions do, just a very sort of casual golf.
Speaker 1: Only problem is he said by bluest six to Bill,
Speaker 1: you should put in your story. But he's a capable
Speaker 1: golfer and he's fun to play with. That anyway, That's
Speaker 1: how I played nine half rounds of golf with Donald
Speaker 1: Trump was because because I had something you wanted. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had Rick Riley on last year about his book.
Speaker 1: If you want to deep dive into the into the
Speaker 1: Trump golf world, you can listen to that podcast. I
Speaker 1: just I was. I was shocked and surprised. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know, he obviously has his life has has been
Speaker 1: in and out of golf for years and years and years.
Speaker 1: But I was like, man, that's that's a lot of rounds.
Speaker 1: Of course, most of them, if not all of them,
Speaker 1: assuming happened before he was president. You you wrote a piece,
Speaker 1: and the last thing I wanna talk about is I
Speaker 1: love this piece. It was after of course the passing
Speaker 1: of Kobe Bryant. You wrote a piece and it compared
Speaker 1: Kobe and Tiger in their careers. Can you just expand
Speaker 1: on their similarities, you know, kind of like hat tipping
Speaker 1: back to the points you were making in that piece, right, Well,
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're similar in age, They're they're
Speaker 1: transformational because uh, they Kobe had appeal way beyond there
Speaker 1: were basket There were people who have the most casual
Speaker 1: interest or no interest in NBA basketball who were drawn
Speaker 1: to Kobe. To Kobe style, to Kobe's sophistication with language,
Speaker 1: uh uh, to Kobe's openness. Tigers different personality type from Kobe. Uh,
Speaker 1: but Tiger also was played a very uh similar role.
Speaker 1: He he had tremendous appeal for the way he carried
Speaker 1: himself and when he played the game, uh to people
Speaker 1: who really had passing interests or even no interest in golf.
Speaker 1: Uh and uh and they dominated their games. Uh, they
Speaker 1: played through injuries and they also you know, if you
Speaker 1: have a six year run in golf, it's tremendous, and
Speaker 1: Tigers has been twenties. Uh, Kobe the same. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you have a six year NBA NBA cruise tremendous.
Speaker 1: What did Kobe have close to twenty So the longevity
Speaker 1: is astounding. Uh, some of the off court and off
Speaker 1: course problems are are are broadly similar. The commitment to education,
Speaker 1: the commitment to their to their own children in the
Speaker 1: face the pressures of being a public person and having
Speaker 1: the steps as we all do in life. Uh, there
Speaker 1: was just a lot of similarities there. And I had
Speaker 1: the feeling and I don't know this, but just listening
Speaker 1: to the little that I've heard Tiger talk about Kobe,
Speaker 1: I don't think there was an everyday closeness at all
Speaker 1: between the two. Of course, Tiger worships, the worship the
Speaker 1: Lakers are growing up, but I think they probably didn't
Speaker 1: really need to be, because, uh, their understanding of each
Speaker 1: other's life was on on such a deep level and
Speaker 1: such as really a pround level. All right, last thing, Michael,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you, if you retired tomorrow, what three majors?
Speaker 1: And I know this is putting you on the spot,
Speaker 1: but what three major championships? On Sunday, as you're sitting
Speaker 1: in front of your computer preparing to write, were you
Speaker 1: most excited about writing the story? Which three events, and
Speaker 1: I'm assuming twenty nineteens probably gonna kind of land in
Speaker 1: one of the three spots. The weird thing about nine
Speaker 1: and because you know much and no you'll believe me,
Speaker 1: but most people won't. But that's okay. I was rooting
Speaker 1: like crazy for Frantriscal Millinary to win that tournament, and
Speaker 1: people would say that's crazy because if he, if Tiger wins,
Speaker 1: that's great for your book. Yes, it was good for
Speaker 1: the book The Tiger One, no question about that. But
Speaker 1: Millinary is my favorite player in the game right now.
Speaker 1: I love the way he goes about his business, and
Speaker 1: also I'm looking for moments for character reveals itself. I've
Speaker 1: said this before, so I hope it doesn't sound to reverse,
Speaker 1: but I deeply believe it. And had Tiger made a
Speaker 1: double on eighteen and lost in a playoff, we would
Speaker 1: have learned a lot more about Tiger's character then then
Speaker 1: through winning, and uh so that would have been I
Speaker 1: would have been very drawn to that. Having said that, definitely,
Speaker 1: I put I put the nineteen the two thousand nineteen Masters.
Speaker 1: I put the ninety seven Masters on there for lots
Speaker 1: of different reasons, one of which was just a house
Speaker 1: full of s I writers, all with different assignments, writing
Speaker 1: it up on deadline, pulling all nighters and trying to
Speaker 1: capture something original about about an event that had legs
Speaker 1: that went and reached, that went way way beyond golf,
Speaker 1: that was very meaningful. And then because I really grew
Speaker 1: up on him, uh Watson had Turnberry. Uh Uh that
Speaker 1: really springs to mind because Watson handled the defeat of
Speaker 1: that playoff just Stewart sinking the two thousand nine Open Championship. Um,
Speaker 1: he handled it with more grace than than an I did.
Speaker 1: Trying to write it up, and I remember leaving the town.
Speaker 1: I remember leaving the President Turnbury and it was pitch black.
Speaker 1: I mean it was nearly it was nearly actually was
Speaker 1: not pitch blacks what I'm saying it because it was
Speaker 1: it was nearly dawn, which comes very early in Scotland
Speaker 1: in summer, you know, probably about what four third or
Speaker 1: five in the more, And trying to just trying to
Speaker 1: get that. Were you at that event, Chane, No, but
Speaker 1: I lived over there for summer and I remember that.
Speaker 1: I always said it never got dark. It always got
Speaker 1: midnight blue, but it never got actually dark. You know,
Speaker 1: you never felt like the sky was black. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: So those those three spring to mind very quickly. But
Speaker 1: you know, the matriction runs wild on these questions because
Speaker 1: you know, if you read about the game, as I
Speaker 1: know you do and I do, you know what about
Speaker 1: sars and making that two and thirty five? You know
Speaker 1: what about Arnold and fifty eight lay, don't you? You know?
Speaker 1: So there's things that exist only on YouTube. Erland highlight
Speaker 1: reels are only in our imagination from reading that you
Speaker 1: know are part of uh, you know, there's they're scrolling
Speaker 1: around in my mind too. But for events where I
Speaker 1: was actually there, those three, those three would be probably
Speaker 1: the first thing that's room to mind. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I I've been to your point about some of the
Speaker 1: majors we maybe forget about sometimes when we talk about
Speaker 1: the greatest ones. I've been during all of this, where
Speaker 1: there's no sports and nothing on TV. I've been diving
Speaker 1: into old final rounds of Masters. All those masters are
Speaker 1: on YouTube. I've been trying to watch the ones that
Speaker 1: maybe we don't consider greatest masters ever. I watched the
Speaker 1: Kenny Perry one a couple of weeks ago. I want
Speaker 1: to get into the Zack Johnson Masters, because you know,
Speaker 1: Tiger had a chance to win that one as well,
Speaker 1: and that was one of the tougher modern day masters
Speaker 1: we've ever had. And as you watch these ones, that again,
Speaker 1: the nineties seven Masters might have seven million views on YouTube,
Speaker 1: and you look at some of the other ones and
Speaker 1: they have a hundred thousand views on there. But they're
Speaker 1: great in their own regards, and they're fun to roll through.
Speaker 1: They're fun to see which moment changed, what was the
Speaker 1: you know, two thousand, nineteen twelve hole of the O
Speaker 1: nine Masters. And I've I found them really revealing because
Speaker 1: it's easy to forget about the great moments there. My last,
Speaker 1: my last thing I want to ask you again putting
Speaker 1: you on the spot, but we have free time right now.
Speaker 1: Any other golf books beside yours and the ones you've
Speaker 1: penned over the years, any golf books that you would
Speaker 1: push people towards, of course, after they read the Second
Speaker 1: Life of Tiger Woods? Well really really, if if you've
Speaker 1: never read a book on Tiger Woods, I would I
Speaker 1: would probably start with the Contain Bennett book, uh, because
Speaker 1: still give you a scope of his life. I find
Speaker 1: the book semi depressing, Uh, Shane, what was your experience
Speaker 1: a little bit? It was it just it just bummed
Speaker 1: you out because it was it was so much about
Speaker 1: again that the person that is Tiger and the demons
Speaker 1: that exists and and and this bubble my life is
Speaker 1: so I can't relate to it really because it's such
Speaker 1: a self absorbed life of just golf and me, me, me,
Speaker 1: And I think what's interesting what's happened since then is
Speaker 1: he's he's I think, broken out of that too to
Speaker 1: a great degree. And how he actually did that will
Speaker 1: lead to the third book that I would put ahead
Speaker 1: of my book excep if it's not written yet, which
Speaker 1: would be if Tiger ever writes his own book, which
Speaker 1: you know he says it's going to do, and I
Speaker 1: hope he does do it because I think it'll be
Speaker 1: a I think it'll be a great exercise for him. Uh.
Speaker 1: But you know, if someone is new to reading books
Speaker 1: about golf and they loved golf, they're welcome to write
Speaker 1: to me, and I'd be I'd be happy to to
Speaker 1: give a listen and be a little easier to do
Speaker 1: if I woul at home begin my bookshelf right now.
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, any of the Jenkins books. George
Speaker 1: Plimpton's The boguey Man is one of my favorite books
Speaker 1: of all time. Golf in the Kingdom was a huge
Speaker 1: hit for me, and it's a shame did you have
Speaker 1: did you read it to do it or not? Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you touched on it late late in second life and
Speaker 1: and I love that you kept bringing that up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a monumental book to me. It doesn't you know
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't register and that's you know
Speaker 1: that that's the reading experience. There are people who will,
Speaker 1: you know, take a book at this book. You know
Speaker 1: that I just just say, I feel like I know
Speaker 1: this already, and those oh this is opening. So you know,
Speaker 1: the reading experience is so individual and people bring their
Speaker 1: life experience to It's very hard to say, but you know,
Speaker 1: to go back to the thing that you first said.
Speaker 1: And I know the quote from George Plimpton, but you
Speaker 1: said it right from the start. And I'm not sure
Speaker 1: who really is responsible for the smaller the ball, the
Speaker 1: better writing will Golf has such a rich literature. Um,
Speaker 1: some of your listeners will know, but but some wanted
Speaker 1: the names Herbert Warren Wind and Bernard Darwin, who has
Speaker 1: Charles Darwin's I think I think nephew maybe grinstematic nephew. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, long well long before your time, Chaine, a
Speaker 1: little bit before my time. And uh so you can
Speaker 1: have a lot of fun in this period getting lost
Speaker 1: in golf books in Chaine. I really this whole time
Speaker 1: that we've been talking, so you know, the occasional lapse,
Speaker 1: this has been a pleasure. We've been on the phone
Speaker 1: now for getting close to an hour and just to
Speaker 1: get sort of lost in golf and not thinking about
Speaker 1: C D D or any you know, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: nineteen right now. It's not it's not two numbers at
Speaker 1: the end of the virus. You know, it's the whole
Speaker 1: where Arnold would you know, uh down a couple of
Speaker 1: uh with his buddies out fins for all that. Anyway,
Speaker 1: it's nice to have this break, and I'm not apologizing
Speaker 1: at all. And you know, in this interview or any
Speaker 1: other time I talked about the book because we need
Speaker 1: and we deserve a break from the surreal lentless news.
Speaker 1: And you know, my own take on is that we're
Speaker 1: getting closer to good news every single day. Uh, but
Speaker 1: of course we are, and and that golf gives us
Speaker 1: we who are serious golfers. I've written this, but uh
Speaker 1: so I don't want to go go with this. Guy just
Speaker 1: came up with this is pretty good, but uh, I
Speaker 1: think we are Golf requires tremendous reservoirs of patients and
Speaker 1: planning and actually teamwork to get through something. You know,
Speaker 1: if you and I go around for around to golf
Speaker 1: and so we're playing, you know, in a match at
Speaker 1: our do you play Whisper Chain or where do you play?
Speaker 1: Play a Phoenix country club? Oh wow? Uh, it's Jessica
Speaker 1: Marksberry's husband. Is he still he's there? Yeah? Great, unbelievable guy, Paul.
Speaker 1: He uh, he's he's got the accident. They just had
Speaker 1: a second they just had a second child, and he's
Speaker 1: still out there. He's still out there making sure everything's running.
Speaker 1: You know. I mean, there's still golf to be played
Speaker 1: in this state, at least for the time am on Tuesday.
Speaker 1: I know everything's changing minutes a minute, but as of
Speaker 1: right now, there's a there's golf to be played. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a fabulous fan thest Golf Course. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: well so so Paul's wife is my colleague Jessica Marksbury
Speaker 1: one of the great people on this world. But anyway,
Speaker 1: the point being is that the very things that draw
Speaker 1: us to golf, um and part of it is playing
Speaker 1: by the rules and doing our part, you know, leaving
Speaker 1: that bunker in better shape than when you walked into it,
Speaker 1: are the very things that I'll get it through this, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, through this unfortunate episode that we're in. But
Speaker 1: we but we will get through it, and we'll have
Speaker 1: golf before too long. Here, as I let you go,
Speaker 1: we have nothing going on in terms of sports. As
Speaker 1: you said, we're sitting around just passing the time with
Speaker 1: whatever we do to pass the time. If it's a puzzle,
Speaker 1: if you're playing chess, if you're starting a new hobby
Speaker 1: or a new book. You're a man that is not
Speaker 1: ventured into the social media world. Are we getting closer
Speaker 1: to social media for for for this reporter, No, not
Speaker 1: at all. I thought maybe Simon and Schuster would push
Speaker 1: it towards it with the book coming out, But you've
Speaker 1: always avoided Twitter. I'm impressed. I did say, yeah, I
Speaker 1: have no interest. I did say that one of my
Speaker 1: bosses at Sports Illustrator before I left Sports Sollstor went
Speaker 1: to Golf magazine and golf dot com with my friend
Speaker 1: and Colin Alan Ship Knuk and and others. Uh uh
Speaker 1: and that was a lifeline given where sports solsittors right now.
Speaker 1: And uh, I want to thank Howard missing every opportunity
Speaker 1: to get Jack Cooks is business part of the bought
Speaker 1: Golf magazine golf dot Com from sports solicitor. But anyway,
Speaker 1: one of my former bosses said he had me on
Speaker 1: the phone for something. I said, so, look, if you're
Speaker 1: thinking about firing me, because you know I'm not doing
Speaker 1: any social media, could you let me know ahead of
Speaker 1: time because I will start if that's what I need
Speaker 1: to do to keep my job. I don't really want to.
Speaker 1: And the guy's like, no, I understand you're not on
Speaker 1: it at all. And Ship knucks on it too much.
Speaker 1: It's a perfect balance. Yeah. Well, he says he's taking
Speaker 1: a page from from him ideas and me of you know,
Speaker 1: wanting to do us of it. Uh, but I do.
Speaker 1: I just like to express myself in other ways. I
Speaker 1: guess it's got the point. But I'm I'm I'm glad
Speaker 1: for people who do get something out of it. And
Speaker 1: I think any way that people. I'm not negative and
Speaker 1: I think I know, I think people need to communicate
Speaker 1: with one another, and I think that changes over time.
Speaker 1: And I'm a big user of email and people are
Speaker 1: you know my emails writ in the book or you
Speaker 1: know it's very available online as well, and anybody who
Speaker 1: writes to me, I pretty much right back to everybody
Speaker 1: writes to me, because I love connecting with people who
Speaker 1: connect to the written work. Your email address is literally
Speaker 1: in the back of the book. You can check it out.
Speaker 1: The Second Life a Tiger was Michael Bamberger. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Read the book, you'll love it. It'll bring you back
Speaker 1: to a happier time in our lives when the Masters
Speaker 1: was on and Tiger was battling it out with some
Speaker 1: other superstars, and you weave through his life and it
Speaker 1: is a crazy, crazy what life at forty four and
Speaker 1: we can only hope to see more and more of it.
Speaker 1: I appreciate the time, my friend, and we'll catch up
Speaker 1: soon down the road. Jane, I appreciate the time. I mean,
Speaker 1: you've done me a great favor here, give me a
Speaker 1: little break and uh and letting me talk about the book.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate it, so, thank you very much. We're
Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break and be right back. A
Speaker 1: big thanks to Michael Bamberger for his time. As I
Speaker 1: mentioned to start, please, if you're a reader, if you're
Speaker 1: someone that likes golf and likes golf books, check out
Speaker 1: The Second Life of Tiger Woods. I promise you you'll
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Thank you all for listening. I appreciate that
Speaker 1: as well. Send me a note on Instagram at the
Speaker 1: Clubhouse Pod. If you're at home and you'd like a
Speaker 1: Clubhouse Pod sticker. If you want one of those, go
Speaker 1: on Instagram at the Clubhouse Pod. Send the note. I'll
Speaker 1: send one. It's the least I can do for spending
Speaker 1: an hour with me every couple of weeks or so.
Speaker 1: I hope you guys have a safe and healthy and
Speaker 1: smart rest of your week, and we'll be back next week.
Speaker 1: I've got a few of these in the can already,
Speaker 1: so hopefully there will be more consistent clubhouses as we
Speaker 1: go on. That's my hope. Nothing else to do. My
Speaker 1: studio here is at my house. That's where I record.
Speaker 1: Let's keep them going. Have a great week. The Clubhouse
Speaker 1: was Shane Bacon as a production of I heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.