WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: DNA Forensics 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.360 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.680 Jonathan Strickland, Diamond executive producer with iHeart Radio and how 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.480 the tech are you? It's time for a tech Stuff 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:25.200 classic episode. This episode is called d n A Forensics. 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:29.400 It originally published on October seventh, two thousand fifteen. In 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:34.839 this episode, Ben Bolan, host of such shows as Ridiculous 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:37.839 History as well as Stuff they Don't want you to 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:42.479 know and as a tireless producer, the kind of person 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:44.680 you can ask to be on your show and he'll 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.199 say yes, even if he's already committed to like a 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.680 billion other things, and he'll somehow find a way to 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.120 do all of them. I don't understand this man anyway. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.520 He joined the show to talk about DNA forensics. Hope 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:02.160 you enjoy this classic episode. Ben has had people mark 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.680 all over him and crayon today. I'm not gonna ask 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.679 why I don't get into personal lives in the show. Well, 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:09.680 you know, it's it's a big deal. Whenever I could 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.120 be on the show and I wanted to do something special, 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.440 my suits at the cleaners got a bunch of sharpies 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.440 and asked people to go nuts. It's kind of like 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.080 body paint, but really they'll super like on the cheap 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.200 because we just can't. We don't have that in our budget, honestly, right, 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.360 not yet. But Hope springs eternal. And what's weird about 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.280 having um all these all these colors and markers all 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.240 over me is that anything I touched literally is leaving 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:37.840 a trace. Yeah, and that kind of you know, we 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.840 were going to have a really in depth conversation on 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.039 how catalytic converters work, but once I noticed you're doing that, 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.080 I thought, why don't we talk about DNA forensics, like 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.640 the traces people leave behind. So that's why I decided 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:53.440 to switch in the last minute. I hope you can 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.120 roll with it. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And just 0:01:56.240 --> 0:02:00.040 in in you know, Ben and I have talked a 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.280 little bit about our our mutual interest in the true 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:07.640 crime uh discipline, the whole the whole true crime like field, 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:09.680 and it turns out we're not the only ones in 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.799 the office. There are certain people in the office who 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.359 have a really deep interest in this sort of stuff, 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:16.440 and so we thought, you know, it'd be kind of 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.480 fun to explore the concept in different shows. So if 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.760 you listen to all of How Stuff Work shows, you 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.320 may have noticed things popping up here and there that's 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.840 not entirely by accident, and so, uh really was one 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.040 of those things where as we all started talking, we're like, hey, 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:33.600 you know, I would like to do something in that 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.080 and we can kind of It's almost like an easter 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.520 egg for those of you who subscribe to lots of 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.720 different shows, and you should let us know if you 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.359 thought it was really cool. So from the technology standpoint, 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.640 we thought DNA forensics would be really really interesting to 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.720 cover and to talk about how it actually works. Uh, 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.639 what are the processes, what are some of the challenges, 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:56.959 What are some of the things that people are doing 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.080 with DNA forensics now that might end up helping uh, 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.760 like investigations in the future where could it actually end 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.120 up giving us a false positive, because there there is 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.880 the possibility of that as well. But to start it 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.839 all off, we really kind of have to lay the groundwork. Yeah, 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:14.440 I was gonna I was just gonna ask you. I 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.520 hate to be the bad kid in class right now, 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:24.600 but what's what's DNA d oxy ribonucleic acid, man, Yeah, 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.440 that's that's what it is. It's so obviously you know, 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.080 anyone who's had science class, like a biology class anything recently, 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.320 you know all about DNA. But you know, we gotta 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.119 build from the ground up. So DNA is a molecule 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.480 that carries the genetic instructions that govern the development, function, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:44.480 and reproduction of organisms. DNA is found in all of 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.240 your cells. Essentially, an entire blueprint of what makes you 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.560 you is in every single one of your cells in 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.320 the form of d N A UH. And the molecule 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.040 is in that double helix form. So that says, if 0:03:58.040 --> 0:03:59.880 you were to make a ladder and then twisted in 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:04.400 to a twisty shape, that's the DNA double helix. The 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.480 rungs on that letter are made up of pairs of 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.440 what we call nucleotides, alright, So each rung on the 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.400 ladder is two different nucleotides that that bond together. Uh. 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:19.560 There's adenine and thymine. Those always pair up together. So 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.640 those are your two base pairs of nucleotides that will 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.200 always join. And then there's guanine and cytosine and those 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:31.640 always join. And it's the sequence of these pairs that 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:35.960 end up determining what makes you you. Right yeah, yeah, 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:40.720 so it could be. And these pairs can affect multiple 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:45.520 the order of these pairs can affect multiple characteristics. Sure, yeah, absolutely. 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:50.520 And also what's really interesting to me is that point 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:55.080 nine of all the DNA that is in you is 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.200 shared with every other human Like we we have ninety 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.359 nine of our DNA in common, which means the stuff 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.080 that makes you who you are as indifferent from every 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:09.360 other person makes up just point one percent of your DNA. 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:11.840 But that's all it takes. Is that point one percent. 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.800 That's about three million base pairs that are unique to 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:19.800 you unless you have an identical sibling. Ah ah the 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:24.080 old Now this goes into um, this verges into some 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:29.160 good detective fiction. Now, yes, that old The evil twin, Yeah, exactly, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.320 it wasn't me. It was my evil twin or or 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.440 evil triplet or evil quadruplet really which we did an 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.200 ill fated brain Stuff but it was, oh my gosh, 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.159 we did. We did. Yeah. If you if you watch 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.720 brain Stuff the video series and you look up how 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:49.440 twins work, Ben and I did a funny At the time, 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.080 I thought I still thought there were parts of it 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.919 that were funny. Honestly, Ben, I still fully enjoy it, 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.560 but my sense of humor is very corny. So but 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:00.880 if you want to see you want to see me 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.000 and Ben dressing up in two different types of outfits, 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.760 like we're the the good Ben and Jonathan and then 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.919 there's the evil Ben and Jonathan and we each have 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.640 an eyepatch. Jonathan I were talking and it was it 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:14.560 was strange because when we were talking about doing this 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.480 episode and said, well, how could we represent evil twins 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:23.280 like I patch is clearly because you know, the the 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.760 goatee is not gonna work for right, because it wasn't 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:27.720 like neither of us were going to end up shaving 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.039 just so that I can be the good twin. But 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.119 both of us are the kind of person who would 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.159 have an I patch. And actually I ended up taking 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.440 a quick walk to a nearby toy store to pick 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.880 some up um. So, at any rate, if you do 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.880 have an identical sibling, your identical sibling shares your DNA. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.160 There they are identical like the d N. If you 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.720 were to compare the two and look at those base pairs, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.000 they're going to be the same all the way down, right, 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.000 So that's one of the that's one of the exceptions. 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:59.240 Really the exception so our DNA can be found in 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.159 twenty three pairs of chromosomes. That's what humans have. Not 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.919 all animals have that many, so have fewer, and etcetera, etcetera. 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.800 So chromosomes are ribbons of protein essentially have a strand 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.280 of DNA that are wrapped up in that and within 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.640 each pair, one chromosome comes from your mother, one chromosome 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.920 comes from your father, and that's what uh you know, 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.600 those are the ingredients that come together to create the 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:27.880 unique individual that is you and or your identical siblings. 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.320 Uh So, if we took look at each person's DNA 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:33.239 and pay attention to the order of those base pairs, 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.040 we get something like a d NA fingerprint. It is 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.120 unique to that person. But we can't just look at 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.600 one section. We have to look at several different sections 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.040 also known as loci in the in the parlance of 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:50.920 forensics to get a robust fingerprint profile. So, just as 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.640 we would look at a fingerprint and look for points 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.960 of comparison to from from a from a fingerprint that 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.880 we've gathered from a suspect, let's say, and a fingerprint 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:01.880 that is left at the scene of a crime, you 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.080 would have to look at several different points to make 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.960 sure that all those points correspond to one another to 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.320 say that there's a match. Same thing with DNA DNA forensics, 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.320 you would look at several different locations along a strand 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:18.320 of DNA and see if the same sequence of nucleo 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:23.360 tides were appearing on both sets, because that would tell 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.680 you what are the statistical probabilities of the person that 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.560 you suspect and the the evidence that was left behind 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:34.000 are one and the same, right, Okay, So each time 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.400 there's a new location, the more loci there are, the 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.439 more certitude you have that you've got your catch. Yeah, 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.160 if you were to say, look at just one location, 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.640 then that would mean you would have a very you know, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.160 there's actually quite a good chance depending upon the sequence, 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:57.040 that coincidence could could completely explain away any any uh 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.520 duplication there. Right, So it could just be coincidence. It 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:04.160 could be that this person just coincidentally has that same sequence. 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.520 As you add more loci, that becomes less and less likely. 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:14.640 Uh FBI. The FBI has thirteen that they suggest, so 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.720 thirteen specific loca that's their standard, and that that results 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.040 in about a one in a billion chance that if 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.800 you were to take all thirteen loca and compare the 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.880 two strength you know, the stuff that was left at 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.480 the evidence and the suspect or whatever is in the database. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.920 If you were to compare the two and they were 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.360 to come up equal at all thirteen, it's a one 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.200 in a billion chance that somebody else besides the person 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.040 you're looking at possesses that. So seven of the six 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.000 other people in the world. Yeah, it's like flash forward 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.680 to that day in court where someone's doing that horrible 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.000 reference joke and going, so you're saying that there's a chance. Yeah, 0:09:56.040 --> 0:10:00.400 And honestly, people who are analyzing the stuff they speak 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.120 in statistical probabilities, because you cannot say for certain that 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:07.920 this person left behind that DNA. You can say, like, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.760 what is the statistical probability that they did? And then 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.400 you look at other elements of the case, right like saying, 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.120 all right, can we put the person in that area, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:21.560 because let's say that it's in a small town. Well, 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:23.520 if it's a one in a billion chance and you 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.800 know that the suspect was in that small town, that's 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:31.560 a pretty darn compelling yeah, because why are the chances 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:33.920 of the other one of the other six people in 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:37.679 the entire world was also in that small town. Not good, 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:40.920 Ben and I will be back to talk more about 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:54.080 DNA forensics after we take this quick commercial break. So 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.120 where do we get the DNA evidence from? Well, stuff 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.120 that people leave behind, Uh, a much anything that has cells, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.000 like living tissue that was left behind our living or 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.920 stuff where living cells could have been in before being 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.320 deposited at the crime scene. So stuff like blood or 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:18.920 saliva or semen or skin cells, mucus, ear wax, sweat. Yeah, 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.640 all of that, All of that can leave behind cells 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.760 that we can pull DNA from that. What about hair, 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:31.040 hair not so much, not not not for traditional DNA 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.719 hair follicles, yes, but hair itself is dead. Those are 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:39.479 dead cells. So you can do some some DNA analysis, 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.160 but not the the standard kind that most people use 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:47.360 in DNA. For instance, Uh, fingernails, same thing, but fingernails 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.920 often come with other tissue attached to it, and that's 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.360 where you find the DNA. So if we want to 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.679 look at the history of people actually saying hey, why 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.839 don't we use this this DNA stuff to try and 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.120 help with investigations, you've got to look back to the 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:08.760 nineteen eighties when a brit named Alec Jefferies, who now 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.640 you may refer to as Professor Sir Alec John Jefferies 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:20.679 f R S hang okay, good, Professor Sir Alec John Jeffries, FRS. Uh, 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.560 that would be his full title. Now. He hit upon 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.479 the idea of using DNA as a means of genetic fingerprinting, 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.480 and he realized that the unique sequences of DNA could 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.440 serve as a means to link an individual to a 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.640 scene where DNA samples were found. And his process was 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.480 first applied in the court system in nineteen eight five. 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.120 In that case, it was an it was an immigration case. 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.199 It wasn't like a murder or a rape or something 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.840 like that. It was to ascertain if the identity of 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.080 a British boy was actually related to a family who 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.600 had originally immigrated to the United Kingdom from elsewhere. And 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.000 he did. Uh. The first time it was used in 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.840 a criminal case would be nine seven. That was yeah, 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.679 not not long after, and that wasn't a case. Uh. 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.880 The The suspect was named Colin Pitchfork, which is a 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.480 heck of a name. Talking about nominative determinism, Yeah, and 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.760 he was arrested on suspicion of rape and murder, and 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:19.760 he was the first criminal cut as a result of 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.600 DNA screening. So this was DNA screen that led to 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.480 his capture. He actually confessed to his crimes, so the 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.160 DNA didn't lead to his conviction. He confessed UH and 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.200 he received life in prison as a result. So I 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.240 wanted to talk a little bit before we get into 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.880 some of the pros and cons about what actually happens 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:42.920 with DNA because you hear like DNA forensics and you're like, well, 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.280 what goes into that? Yeah, this is a great thing 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.280 to contextualize right now because there are a lot of 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:55.479 fans and tech stuff who have probably seen and scoffed 0:13:55.480 --> 0:14:02.199 at the various entertaining but inaccurate crimes shows c s I, 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.160 CSI being the big one, Like they're there are are 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.319 FRIENDSIC specialists who say that c s I is probably 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.480 one of the most damaging things that have happened to 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:15.520 their their career path ever because people have unrealistic expectations, specifically, 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:20.760 juries have unrealistic expectations, which can hurt a trial case 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:25.960 because juries will often one want DNA UH data when 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:29.560 it's not even relevant to a case. Like they're like 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.280 it's not necessary for them to make a determination in 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.560 a case, but they want it because it's one of 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.080 those things that people associate with. Oh, d NA gets 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.600 you the the locked in answer was that person there 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.560 were they not there? Um, just run the DNA enhanced 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.280 the photograph. I see what the problem right? Exactly. Yeah, 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.120 let's pull up one of those three dimensional holographic images. 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.280 We're just we're just throw every single science fiction CSI 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:01.560 trope in there, so early friends. Now, this actually used 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:07.320 a process called restriction fragment length polymorphism or r f LP, 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.840 and that involves taking a sample of DNA that has 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.440 repeating base pairs, like they can repeat from anywhere between 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.600 one and thirty times. They're called variable number tandem repeats 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.880 or v N t r s. And what they would 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.560 do is they would dissolve this DNA in an enzyme 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:29.120 to break the strand at specific locations along that the DNA. 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:33.840 So uh saying like, um, when there are this many repetitions, 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.960 this enzyme is going to break the strand at that point, 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.640 so that way we can measure how long the strand 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:44.120 DNA is in and out point. Yeah, So imagine that 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.560 you've got like a ribbon, right, And let's say that 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.840 little ribbon is maybe three ft long, and you're going 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.320 to cut out a six inch segment of that ribbon. 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.520 Use this enzyme, and it cuts it at the very 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.400 specific locations along that strand that you want. You do 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.240 the same thing with the material that was left behind 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.880 at the scene. So let's say you've got you've got 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:12.160 your your DNA sample from your suspect, you've got the 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.640 sample from the scene, and you compare the two and 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.720 you're essentially measuring them against each other, like literally measuring 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.760 the length of them, because it's those repeating pairs that 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:26.240 determine how long that segment is. So if the two 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:30.160 are about the same length, or actually they are the 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:32.720 same length, then you know, or at least you you 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.800 have a good uh inclination to say that this person 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.360 was the one who left behind that DNA. That's not 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.520 really used that frequently anymore, but more frequently now we 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.640 use a method called short tandem repeat analysis, which is 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.240 more reliable, more popular, And in this method, analysts take 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.080 a sample of DNA and they count the repetition of 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.840 those base pairs along certain locations the loci of that sample. 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.120 So for or five base pair repeats, like where you 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.200 get you know, your your those nucleo tied pairings I 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.159 talked about, sometimes those pairings repeat in a sequence, right, 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:14.200 They look for uh, preferably four or five base pair 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.879 repeat segments. So that way, because it's less likely than 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.840 if you would have two or three in a row. Yeah, 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.280 the more you have in a row, the less likely 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.520 you're going to find that exact same repetition in another 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.240 in an unrelated person's DNA. And these are by the way, 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.040 called tetra nucleotide or penta nucleotide repetitions because of the 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.800 number tetra being four, penta being five. Um. There, those 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.920 are best in order to indicate an accurate match. So 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.080 the FBI, like I said, says, thirteen specific locai to 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.360 find this, you would do this in thirteen different locations 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.480 along the strand of DNA. And if you were to 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.600 find these, uh, these base pair repeats that are identical 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.040 in both and both samples, that's a really good indication 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.520 that they belong to the same person. And this this 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:08.040 investigation technique, while it is while it's pretty solid and 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:12.280 there's solid science behind it, it doesn't work in every 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.480 in every case, it's not a silver bullet, and this 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.520 is kind of some dark territory. Yeah yeah. In fact, 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.639 there there are a lot of reasons why, uh, this 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:26.760 can be this can be problematic. Um. One other thing 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.000 I want to talk about before we get into the challenges, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.760 specifically things like contamination and chain of possession and this 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:37.960 chain of custody, thank you, before we get into that, 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.680 is to talk about all right, So you know, I 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.359 gave these these overviews of how they're analyzing the DNA, 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:46.920 but one of the big issues here is that often 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.360 when you're in the field and you're looking for anything 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:54.680 that has you know, remnants of DNA on it, you 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.760 may not have a very large sample to work with, Right, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.200 So you've got a tiny amount of d and a 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.439 how do you make sure you can do the tests 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.800 you need with a tiny little amount? And the answer 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:11.760 is you duplicate the crap out of it? What how? Yeah? Okay, 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.000 So this is this is gonna get super weird because 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.480 I'm gonna get into molecular biology and chemistry. But starting it, 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.080 I want to Okay. So they use a process called 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:25.440 polymerase chain reaction or PCR to duplicate a specific region 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.840 of the DNA in a sample. So this process was 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.320 developed in three by Carrie Mullis who actually he won 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.320 a Nobel Prize in chemistry for his work in this field. 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.280 And what they'll do, because they'll take samples of DNA, 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.479 they'll take a string of DNA. So you've got your 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:44.639 double helix right, and then you heat it to between 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:49.560 ninety four and ninety six degrees celsius for a few minutes. Yeah, 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.320 so it's almost boiling um for a few minutes. And 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.720 this is to d nature the sample, which means that 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.960 the DNA straightens out, so it's no longer a twisted ladder, 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.640 it's a ladder, and the rungs split apart. So those 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:08.280 base pairs split and you get two strands, two half 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:13.080 strands of DNA, all right, So then you end up 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.560 changing the temperature. You lower it to between fifty and 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.320 sixty five degrees celsius for a few minutes. That first 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:21.360 one only takes a few minutes to so you lower 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:23.639 it down to fifty to six degrees celsius for a 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.000 few more minutes. That allows the left and right primers. 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:32.960 These are small sections of DNA that have matching nucleo 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:36.720 tides to the two separated pieces that you've created. Think 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.399 of them as almost like half zippers. So you've got 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.560 the right and left half of a zipper on either 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:46.040 like they're they're spreading out there there there's apart from 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.119 one another. You've got a small section that interlocks with 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:55.760 each side. Because that you've got the the complementary base pairs. Uh, 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.880 those will then connect to those sections. Now that's only 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:03.840 a tiny little part overall part of the full DNA. 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.040 But um. They then raise the temperature to seventy two 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.320 degrees celsius for a few minutes to allow the tach 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.600 polyme race. Now this is the material that can then 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:20.320 build and synthesize new DNA to the two separate strands. 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.440 So if you think about it like a video game. 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.239 All right, so you get your little you get your 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.240 little segment that's locked onto the half ladder of DNA, 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:30.480 the stuff you started off with in the first place. 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:32.600 At one end of that, imagine that you get a 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.359 little bitty blob, all right, a little big blob just 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:41.600 builds the corresponding rungs and goes down the line rebuilding 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.639 the DNA. And it doesn't you know, there's one on 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:48.080 both sides. There's a primer on each half strand of DNA, 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:50.359 so at the end of this process you end up 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:55.320 with two strands of d N. A. Okay, we've got 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.760 more to say in this classic episode of tech stuff 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:11.159 after these quick messages. Now you started with one, but 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:15.040 because you've used this molecular biology slash chemistry approach, you've 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.800 been able to duplicate it. And then you repeat that process, 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.040 so you do it again. Those two become four, the 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.120 four become a You see how this expands very rapidly. 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:26.520 You do it over and over, so that way, even 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:28.800 if you started with a very small sample of DNA, 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.440 by the end you've got plenty to work with, so 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.280 you don't have to worry about you know, we had 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:38.159 one little drop of sweat at the scene and and 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.600 we blew it on on a test that didn't work out. 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:43.399 You don't have to worry about that. I'm sorry to 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.960 be like, uh, emotionally or mentally a nine year old here, Jonathan, 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:49.520 but can we can we make it a booker? I 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.040 just love picture in us as cops or like no, 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.840 no one knows who stole the bus. We have only 0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:00.760 this single the mysterious picker has struck again. Yeah, okay, 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:03.760 so you're in Yeah, well we weren't talking about urine. 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.560 We were talking about the boogers, all right, you got me. 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:09.280 But this is but this is a great that that's 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:13.800 a great explanation of how this occurs. Because given that 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:20.560 you're essentially destroying the evidence every time that you you 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:24.640 conduct this kind of this, this kind of investigation, than 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:28.880 being able to reproduce it is fundamental. Yeah, it's absolutely 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:32.080 key because again, if you do not have very much 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:35.480 of that material, then you really have to be careful. 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.000 And there are a lot of things that can complicate this, 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:39.680 and that's kind of where we were leading to a 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:41.800 little bit earlier. There are a lot of reasons why 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:45.320 you cannot just say that DNA forensics is going to 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:50.000 solve you know, the crimes out there as long as 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:53.680 someone's left something behind. Because even though it's versatile, even 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:58.560 though we have this amazing capability, life is weird and 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:01.240 things can go wrong, and they can go wrong either 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:04.280 accidentally or on purpose. So one thing that can happen 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.920 is multiple people could be involved in a an incident 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:11.679 crime of some sort, and so the more people who 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:15.560 are involved, the harder it is. To be absolutely certain 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:18.320 that the DNA samples you're working with all linked to 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:23.920 a specific individual. In fact, there are currently some changes 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:28.600 in the way DNA can be handled UH in cases 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:30.639 court cases actually to the point where it's in the 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:35.040 legal case since UH in Texas and other places as well, 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:37.720 and so forensics labs are having to put in greater 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:42.680 restrictions because forensics analysts would go into testify in court 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:45.240 cases and say, there's a one in a billion chance 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:47.560 this belonged to someone else. But if you start the 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:50.720 factor in that there is more than one person's DNA 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:54.640 found at the scene and the contamination issues that result 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:57.040 from that, then people would say like, all right, well, 0:24:57.119 --> 0:24:59.879 really it's more like one in a thousand or one 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:02.359 in a hundred. And then at this point you might say, well, 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.359 the DNA evidence is not strong enough for it to 0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:09.399 be a compelling argument for the guilt or innocence of 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:12.879 a person, because there's enough like if you're in a 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.320 really dense urban area and you say there's a one 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:19.720 and a hundred chance that's you know, it's it's hard 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:24.920 to say that shouldn't introduce reasonable doubt that it doesn't 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:29.040 meet the burden of reasonable doubts. But and then you 0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:32.879 have to try to chase down all the other possibilities. 0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:36.200 And that's that's if there are multiple people involved. But 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:40.200 even if there's not multiple people involved, obviously you have 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:45.680 to be very cognizant of the possibility of contamination. Yeah, okay, 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:48.000 we we can talk about this a little bit, because 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:51.520 we this is something that you might not see on 0:25:51.760 --> 0:25:57.200 Hollywood as often as you see it in real life. Yes, exactly, Jonathan. 0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:03.120 So let's say you know the Let's say you're the detective, 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:09.600 right and Noel is the prosecutor, and I'm the I'm 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:11.880 the JABRONI at the scene. You was supposed to pick 0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:14.480 up the stuff and bring it, right, Yeah, So you're 0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:17.120 you're your job is to actually go in and collect 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:21.400 the evidence before anyone else can go through that area, right, Yeah, 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:24.000 because as soon as you introduce other people, then you've 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:26.480 introduced other DNA that could be left at the scene. 0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:29.720 But I've been having a I've been having a crazy 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:33.520 time work lately, and I've been cutting corners a little 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:36.680 and everybody knows. Nobody said anything yet because it's not 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:41.000 a big deal yet. But here's what happens. Uh, while 0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:44.159 I'm on while I collect the evidence. Let's see, I 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.119 get blood samples, and I'm on the way back. I 0:26:47.920 --> 0:26:50.439 stop it cook out because my diet is as much 0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:55.600 of a train wreck as my life, and and because 0:26:55.640 --> 0:26:58.920 I'm personable, I shake hands with six people as I'm 0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:02.720 walking back into our holding, right, I don't wash my hands. 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:07.000 And I also kept the sample for some reason, in 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:10.159 the bag from cookout. Yeah, that would there there might 0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:13.520 be a chance that that was encountered some form of 0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:16.000 contamination from the scene to the point where you get 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:20.160 to the lab and then you you run the d NA. Yeah, right, Well, 0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:24.600 clearly the suspect was a roast pig. Right, Yeah, clearly 0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:28.040 suspect was a roast pig. Or even more dangerously, Uh, 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:32.240 clearly the suspect, Uh, the suspect maybe someone that already 0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:35.760 pings in our database, who just got out of prison 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:39.760 for grand theft auto and now works out of cookout. Yeah. Yeah, 0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:42.639 that's I mean that that's a you know, it's it 0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:45.040 seems like it's a convoluted example, except for the fact 0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:47.240 that this is the source of stuff that can happen r. Yeah, 0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:49.800 it's not. I would say it's possible, but that one 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:53.240 is not plausible. No, No, But but the example you 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:56.359 give does show that there has to be great care 0:27:56.760 --> 0:28:00.480 the the people who come in to collect the evidence 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:03.040 have to do so before there can be a lot 0:28:03.119 --> 0:28:05.360 of disturbance of the crime scene. Because the more disturbance 0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:07.520 there there is, like I said, the more chances other 0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:12.000 people will leave behind DNA skin cells, or or um 0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:14.959 sweat or blood or whatever it might be. Um might 0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:17.000 be that there were other people who were involved in 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:21.000 it who have no or you know, people who maybe 0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:24.119 the person who stumbled upon the scene left something behind 0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:28.399 without intending to, like cutting a hand on a on 0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:31.320 a piece of glass or something, letting themselves into see 0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:36.080 what's happened. Yeah, even something as simple as that. So 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:39.040 there's there's that you have to be aware of contamination there. 0:28:39.080 --> 0:28:41.560 You also have to be aware of contamination through the 0:28:41.760 --> 0:28:45.240 moment you've collected it, all the way through the testing phase. 0:28:45.680 --> 0:28:48.320 So that's where the chain of custody comes in. By 0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:50.240 the way, if you ever see people like putting stuff 0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:53.400 in plastic bags in order to preserve it, that's pretty 0:28:53.520 --> 0:29:00.640 much a fiction because plastic will will contain moisture, right anything, 0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:03.040 Any moisture that's in the bag will stay there and 0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:08.440 moisture can can degrade DNA samples, so usually they're actually 0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:11.040 put in paper, so it's usually a paper envelope or 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:15.160 a paper bag that's quickly labeled, and then there's this 0:29:15.360 --> 0:29:18.960 chain of custody that must be documented through the entire 0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:21.560 process until it gets to the lab, and then at 0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:23.480 the lab. Even at the lab, they have to be 0:29:23.720 --> 0:29:26.360 very careful with the equipment they're using. They have to 0:29:26.400 --> 0:29:29.800 make certain that it's completely clean and that way you 0:29:29.920 --> 0:29:33.400 don't end up cross contaminating from a previous test into 0:29:33.480 --> 0:29:36.200 your current test. That's happened a couple of times. There 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:38.840 actually been a couple of cases. Yeah, there was a 0:29:38.920 --> 0:29:42.080 case where, uh, there was a victim of a crime 0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:46.120 and there was another crime that was committed, and the 0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:50.120 initial DNA test results of the crime that was committed 0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:52.880 came back with the victim from the other crime as 0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:55.480 a positive. And they realized that the reason why that 0:29:55.600 --> 0:29:58.640 was happening was that there were two different DNA tests 0:29:58.760 --> 0:30:01.560 that had been performed, and the victim from the first 0:30:01.640 --> 0:30:05.000 one that their DNA had not been completely cleaned out 0:30:05.040 --> 0:30:07.280 of the system before they started doing the next test, 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:10.040 and so they were getting these false positives, and they 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:11.960 knew it couldn't have been the victim because the victim 0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:15.120 was the victim was victimized, the victim was not capable 0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:18.200 of committing that crime. Um. So it was already like 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:21.200 one of those things that proved that there was an 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:24.880 issue here. And in almost every case, in fact, I'll 0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:28.320 go ahead say the vast majority of cases, this has 0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:33.080 to do with a person either mistakenly or purposefully, not 0:30:33.400 --> 0:30:38.240 following procedure or not making certain that that everything is 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:42.320 on the up and up. Rather than the process itself 0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:45.720 being a failure, it's it's it's a human error, either 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:51.760 intentional or otherwise introduced typically um. And so another thing 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:54.160 that you have to worry about is whether or not 0:30:54.320 --> 0:31:00.240 someone has purposefully introduced DNA. There have been cases where 0:31:00.680 --> 0:31:06.080 in order to try and either uh, to hide one's 0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:10.480 involvement in a crime or to implicate someone else specifically 0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:13.840 in a crime, people have left behind samples of DNA 0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:18.280 in order to throw people, throw investigators off the track. 0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:22.080 Whether again, whether it is to protect yourself, like let's 0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:24.160 say that you committed the crime and you leave behind 0:31:24.240 --> 0:31:28.240 the DNA of you know, your uh, your your hated cousin. 0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:32.760 So that your cousin takes the rapid you don't, or 0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:35.440 you're an investigator and you're like, well, there's this really 0:31:35.600 --> 0:31:38.800 awful guy, and we want to get him for this crime. 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:41.440 We really like him for this crime, but we don't 0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:43.640 have the direct evidence for him. However, I do have 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:47.560 this DNA from a separate incident. I can leave this 0:31:47.720 --> 0:31:50.320 behind the crime scene collected, and therefore we can finally 0:31:50.360 --> 0:31:52.600 get the guy. I'm pretty sure he did it anyway, 0:31:52.840 --> 0:32:00.320 you know, solid solid. Yeah. So that's again, this is 0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:02.240 not something that happens all the time. It's not not 0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:05.600 something that's even prevalent, but it's it's one of those 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:07.240 things that you have to be aware of. That's why 0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:10.560 these things like the chain of custody is so important 0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:13.600 to maintain. I have a question, sure, uh, And I 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:16.200 don't know if I'm jumping ahead here, no, please ask, 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:19.200 But I was kind of foreshadowing this while we're asking 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:25.560 about hair follicles. So the it sounds like the home 0:32:25.720 --> 0:32:29.840 run for UH, for DNA testing would be something, as 0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:34.640 you said, containing living cells, so blood, bodily fluid, stuff 0:32:34.680 --> 0:32:38.960 like that. But if that's a home run, the kind 0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:41.120 of stuff that people are much more likely to leave 0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:45.480 behind would be things like hair follicles or flakes of skin. 0:32:46.000 --> 0:32:49.280 You know, so, what what's the deal with that? How 0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.720 how does that work? It's still the same same process 0:32:52.760 --> 0:32:54.920 in the sense that these are things that can leave 0:32:55.000 --> 0:32:59.640 behind traces of DNA, like as long as as long 0:32:59.720 --> 0:33:03.320 as for instance, let's say that you have h you're 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:05.800 at a murder scene scene and you are you are 0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:08.600 investigating one of the things, You're going to look for 0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:13.280 our traces of any skin under the victim's fingernails, because 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.480 that that's a an indication that the victim fought back 0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:20.840 against his or her murderer and may in fact have 0:33:21.480 --> 0:33:26.160 samples of that skin underneath his or her fingernails. And 0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:28.920 so you can collect that and then do the same 0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:31.400 process I was talking about. You can extract the DNA 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:34.120 from those cells and then do the same process to 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:38.280 duplicate that DNA and then run it either against suspects 0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:41.760 DNA or or use a database. We mentioned the databases 0:33:41.840 --> 0:33:44.920 briefly to a little bit about yeah, let's do that, 0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:47.040 because there are a couple of different ones. There there 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:51.280 are state databases, there's a national database, and then there's 0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:55.120 the FBI's database. Uh So, These are all databases that 0:33:55.800 --> 0:33:59.680 contain the DNA information of various people who have been 0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:04.120 booked for specific types of crimes. It's not every crime. 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:07.400 Don't worry, the FBI does not have your genetic blueprint 0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:10.520 because one time you purposely parked in a handicap spot. 0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:14.719 Although Jonathan and Nolan I do judge you for that, Yes, 0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:17.839 we think you should definitely never do that. If you don't, 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:22.120 if you do not have a the handicap label, uh, 0:34:22.320 --> 0:34:25.120 then don't park in that spot. But now these are 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:29.520 specifically pretty serious crimes where that's really the only way 0:34:30.000 --> 0:34:34.880 that they that that the state or federal government is 0:34:34.880 --> 0:34:40.360 allowed to to collect a DNA sample from you to 0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:42.879 use in this database when they've got a lot of people. 0:34:42.960 --> 0:34:45.560 I've got some statistics here to yeah, please hit me. Okay, 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:49.719 so let's let's go with the big one, right, Okay, 0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:53.120 The big one here in the States is the National 0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:57.200 DNA Index or in d I S. That's the that's 0:34:57.239 --> 0:35:00.520 the Fed's, that's the FBI. It contains a little under 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:05.359 twelve million offender profiles, specifically eleven million, eight hundred twenty two, 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:08.759 nine hundred and twenty seven. It has to a little 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:12.560 over two million R s D profiles and a little 0:35:12.600 --> 0:35:16.240 over six hundred thousand forensic profiles. That's as of June. 0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:21.759 If you visit the FBI's website, you can learn a 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:27.719 lot about their biometric analysis, which does also contain print work. 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.600 It's it's sort of a mixtape of all the stuff 0:35:30.680 --> 0:35:33.960 that they could use to investigate. And here's the thing 0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:36.160 you can do if you live in the US and 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:38.400 you would like to feel a little bit less comfortable 0:35:38.480 --> 0:35:42.040 each day. Okay, it's there's a breakdown by state, so 0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:47.040 you can see how many offender profiles are are located 0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:50.200 in your state. Here in Georgia, in our case, it's 0:35:50.320 --> 0:35:53.680 two hundred nine five thousand, nine hundred and thirty eight. 0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:58.520 Considering the population of Georgia, that is a significant number. Right. 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:02.960 You can see the forensics profiles, the arrestees. You can 0:36:03.000 --> 0:36:08.319 also see the number of investigations aided in labs participate. Now, 0:36:09.120 --> 0:36:10.719 one of the things I want to point out is 0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:14.279 that this also goes back into the drawbacks or the 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:19.000 challenges of forensics, is that forensic labs can get really 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:21.920 backed up with this stuff, Like the backlogs can be 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:25.719 can be crazy because while I I you know, I 0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:28.560 mentioned that process just for duplicating the DNA. That can 0:36:28.600 --> 0:36:31.520 take a couple of hours to do that process, and 0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:34.320 then of course you've got all the cleaning of the 0:36:34.400 --> 0:36:36.200 material that has to happen in order for you to 0:36:36.239 --> 0:36:39.200 be able to use it again. That's not that doesn't 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:44.160 even involve the actual analysis of the DNA that tends 0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:48.840 to require a forensic specialist to do this. It's not 0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:52.160 like it's all automated, although there are more and more 0:36:52.200 --> 0:36:56.399 automated systems that help, but generally speaking, it's it's sort 0:36:56.440 --> 0:37:01.160 of an augmented approach where you still have forensic expert 0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:05.040 do the the look you know they're doing. They're looking 0:37:05.200 --> 0:37:07.800 at the DNA to look at those base pairs and 0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:12.040 actually makes certain visually that they are in fact identical. 0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:17.279 So it takes a lot of time. And meanwhile, while 0:37:17.320 --> 0:37:20.160 you're doing all this, more samples are coming in, so 0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:23.280 there's a backlog that starts to build up, and depending 0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:26.480 upon the area and the number of labs that are available, 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:29.960 it might be a very serious backlog. And there was 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:32.480 also a pre existing backlog because if we look at 0:37:32.520 --> 0:37:36.439 how recently this occurred and off air we talked about 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:38.840 this in the course of your research. You send in 0:37:38.960 --> 0:37:42.160 some great stuff about cold cases. Yeah, so there was 0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:46.439 already a built in backlog for this technology, and they're 0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:51.040 already been cases of people who were in jail for years, decades, Yeah, 0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:55.839 who were innocent. Yeah, yeah, where the DNA evidence ended 0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:58.400 up clearing them like it could not possibly have been 0:37:58.480 --> 0:38:03.120 that person. Um. And you know, actually, that's when I 0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:06.200 say that there are some serious restrictions and tax us 0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:10.279 about this multi person DNA approach. It's specifically so that 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:15.879 there is every attempt to make certain that innocent people 0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:19.879 aren't incarcerated. There is a huge obviously there's a huge 0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:25.040 pressure on law enforcement to to assign guilt and uh 0:38:25.120 --> 0:38:29.880 and bring somebody in for particularly awful crimes. And there's 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:32.840 an enormous pressure because of course, the community wants to 0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:35.080 feel safe, they want to feel that something is being done. 0:38:36.000 --> 0:38:38.600 That has to be balanced against making sure you get 0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:42.560 the right person. Yeah. Yeah, because we know that we 0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:47.320 live in an age of instant gratification. Yeah, things should 0:38:47.320 --> 0:38:52.680 be right immediately and right the first time and right 0:38:52.760 --> 0:38:56.360 now and right now, yes, the three rights. But unfortunately 0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:59.359 the wheels of justice hows those saying go. Man, they 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:03.400 grinds low but exceedingly fine. Yes, as opposed to go 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:05.960 round and round. Yes, the wheels in the bus. I 0:39:06.080 --> 0:39:10.000 was thinking, you know we would be here, terrible lawyers. Yeah, 0:39:10.040 --> 0:39:12.120 we would be Actually, I know I would be. I 0:39:12.200 --> 0:39:15.800 remember participating in a mock trial in school and not 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:18.319 knowing what the heck I was doing? What was your 0:39:18.360 --> 0:39:21.360 what was your rule? I was defense and it was terrible. 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:23.840 It was terrible. I did not want to do it. 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:26.960 I was. I was. I was bullied into it and 0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:29.520 I it was awful. I could see you doing like 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:33.560 a judge or maybe a bailiff who's over it, like 0:39:34.000 --> 0:39:39.120 sit down. Yeah, no, I was. Uh my my client 0:39:39.160 --> 0:39:42.160 would have gotten the chair. It was terrible for a 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:45.680 very minor offense too, That's how bad I was. We'll 0:39:45.800 --> 0:39:49.760 wrap up this discussion about DNA forensics after this quick break. 0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:02.799 So I away getting back into DNA forensics. Uh so, yeah, 0:40:02.920 --> 0:40:06.080 you mentioned cold cases. I've got one specific one I'll mention, 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:09.359 and it's not it's one that has not been um 0:40:10.080 --> 0:40:12.600 seen to completion yet. In other words, there there hasn't 0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:15.600 been a conviction yet in this case, but it does 0:40:15.719 --> 0:40:21.240 show how how far reaching this can go. So in December, 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:26.480 the body of a young lady named Crystal Lynn bez 0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:31.280 bes Lana, which was found along the Provo River in Utah. 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:35.400 She was seventeen years old when she was killed, and 0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:40.000 she had been sexually assaulted and murdered, uh perhaps bludgeoned 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:43.160 to death with rocks. That was what the police believed 0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:45.440 at the time. Now, the original investigator of the crime, 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:49.200 it was a guy who became the the deputy sheriff, 0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:53.919 I believe, but Todd Bonner decided to continue investigation even 0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:57.040 long after all the leads were drying up, like they 0:40:57.120 --> 0:41:02.600 just could not find any leads, and in a lab 0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:06.600 was able to extract what's called touch DNA. It was 0:41:06.719 --> 0:41:10.359 left behind on a granite rock that the police had 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:14.880 believed was used in killing this young lady, and the 0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:18.960 lab used a vacuum instrument to pull this touch DNA 0:41:19.160 --> 0:41:21.719 off the granite rock and then put it through this 0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:27.920 analysis process and the results ended up matching DNA from 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:31.680 a suspect that people were interested in but had no 0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:35.400 direct connection to the crime. The suspect's name was Joseph 0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:39.960 Michael Simpson, and they got the sample DNA from a 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:44.520 discarded cigarette butt he had tossed us a cigarette but 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.520 the cops scooped it up, they tested the DNA, they 0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:52.719 found a match. They arrested him back in Uh, he 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:56.680 has a previous conviction for murder. He had actually been 0:41:56.760 --> 0:42:01.759 out on parole for eight months for before Brasilanta, which 0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:04.239 is death. Yeah, so he had been in jail for 0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:07.640 several years but got paroled and then uh, eight months 0:42:07.760 --> 0:42:11.640 later Brisilana, which was dead, and he's been linked to 0:42:11.719 --> 0:42:15.040 this and arrested for the crime. Now that being said, 0:42:15.760 --> 0:42:18.000 the last I checked into this case, you know, that 0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:20.439 was back in the last I checked into this case. 0:42:20.560 --> 0:42:24.399 It's still not it still hasn't been tried. There's been 0:42:25.719 --> 0:42:30.640 request for more evidence on the prosecution side, including uh 0:42:30.800 --> 0:42:36.279 an actual DNA sample from Simpson himself to confirm that 0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:39.839 the findings are in fact accurate, so in other words, 0:42:39.920 --> 0:42:43.360 not just from the cigarette, but but from Simpson in custody. 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:47.600 And then there's also a request to get a print 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:51.239 sample because of a partial print that was left behind 0:42:51.320 --> 0:42:55.520 on the victim herself. So, uh, this case is not 0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:58.920 one that's like cut and dry and it's definitive, but 0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:02.440 it does Indica eight that this approach is able to 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:07.040 start pulling up connections that otherwise would have been unlikely 0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:10.040 or even impossible to make. And this brings us to 0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:13.320 this is just a sidebar, Okay, this brings us to 0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:16.960 a dangerous thing. And you know, of course that I 0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:20.040 who can sometimes be a cartoon of myself and am 0:43:20.120 --> 0:43:23.600 required to mention this. What do you think about the 0:43:23.719 --> 0:43:28.200 idea of blanket DNA sampling? They're taking every citizen. You know, 0:43:28.440 --> 0:43:32.759 some prominent members of the UK legal system have advocated 0:43:32.840 --> 0:43:37.000 this for all British citizens, and Kuwait is doing the 0:43:37.080 --> 0:43:40.120 same thing. Well, let me put it to you this way. Okay. 0:43:42.920 --> 0:43:45.200 There's always the argument that some people will make that 0:43:45.320 --> 0:43:47.239 if you're not doing anything wrong, then what do you 0:43:47.320 --> 0:43:49.439 have to fear? Right, Well, here's what you have to fear, 0:43:49.680 --> 0:43:53.480 I'm gonna tell you. Okay. So there have been at 0:43:53.520 --> 0:43:57.839 least a couple of companies that have shown that through 0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:01.279 a little bit of your DNA, they and do a 0:44:01.440 --> 0:44:05.839 very similar process to duplicating DNA, which means that they 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:09.160 can synthesize your DNA, which means then that if your 0:44:09.200 --> 0:44:12.720 DNA can be synthesized, it could be created and dropped somewhere. 0:44:12.840 --> 0:44:15.640 And you had never been to that place. Oh wow, 0:44:15.880 --> 0:44:18.640 So you all of a sudden, you get a summons 0:44:18.800 --> 0:44:23.879 for some horrendous crime in uh Iceland or something. You say, 0:44:24.000 --> 0:44:26.439 I've never been Yeah, this is the weirdest thing because 0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:29.719 I've never been there. Like, but this is match to 0:44:29.800 --> 0:44:32.600 your DNA. There's a one and a billion chance that 0:44:32.719 --> 0:44:35.799 someone else did this, um and you you know that's 0:44:36.080 --> 0:44:38.520 that's a thing like, that's we're in a world where 0:44:38.560 --> 0:44:42.080 technologically it is possible to do this. Now, is that 0:44:42.239 --> 0:44:46.520 likely to happen? It's definitely, like and it's in the 0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:50.440 realm of possibility, but not plausibility. However, as long as 0:44:50.480 --> 0:44:54.000 it's possible, then I would argue that it is too 0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:58.920 invasive to demand from your population that everyone submit to 0:44:59.280 --> 0:45:03.319 d n A like submitting a DNA sample and yeah, yeah, 0:45:03.400 --> 0:45:05.920 what about well, let's take a step further. What about 0:45:06.000 --> 0:45:10.200 the idea that there would be what about the idea 0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:13.840 that this stuff, which is you set a blueprint in 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:18.319 some ways. Also it's it's similar to metadata. Okay, let's 0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:21.680 I can see where you're saying. So the ability then 0:45:22.000 --> 0:45:25.399 to build this enormous sample size let's say the entire 0:45:25.520 --> 0:45:28.000 population of the UK. I think right now they're only 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:31.320 at maybe five of the population because you have to 0:45:31.400 --> 0:45:35.040 get you know, you have to get pinched. So if 0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:38.920 they had this enormous sample size, then they could start 0:45:39.040 --> 0:45:44.760 comparing and collating and analyzing this stuff on a larger 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:50.000 scale such that they would be able to possibly again 0:45:50.120 --> 0:45:55.440 possibly not plausibly, uh predict um not epo genetic trends, 0:45:55.480 --> 0:45:59.320 but but predict the likelihood of someone incurring a certain 0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:03.239 disease or something. Well, we're getting into more of a 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:08.160 genomic sequencing at that point. Yeah, yeah, when you're when 0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:11.160 you're getting into genomic sequencing, it's it's much further, it's 0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:14.920 much it's a much longer process. Because again, this is 0:46:15.120 --> 0:46:18.200 very close to when they call a genetic fingerprinting. It 0:46:18.760 --> 0:46:20.759 makes sense to call it that because you're really just 0:46:20.880 --> 0:46:25.680 looking at the physical resemblance of two strands, right, Like 0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:28.360 like two drawings and there are two drawings of ladders, 0:46:28.440 --> 0:46:30.239 and if the two drawings of ladders are the same, 0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:32.120 then you know you've got a one and a billion 0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:36.480 chance of it not being that person. So that's a 0:46:36.560 --> 0:46:39.640 lot different than going through and identifying things like which 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:42.520 genes do want I mean, we still don't even know, right, 0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:46.600 So in case you guys are not terribly familiar with 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:50.799 with genetics. The genes can be pretty complicated things. Think 0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:54.720 about like a giant switchboard. Right, You've got an enormous switchboard, 0:46:54.760 --> 0:46:59.120 and there's like a thousand switches on little metal toggle switches, 0:46:59.200 --> 0:47:03.480 the classic up down toggle switches. Right, unlabeled. That you 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:07.440 have a bank of lightbulbs in front of you, also unlabeled. 0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:10.759 You flip one switch and one lightbulb comes on. You 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:13.920 flip a second switch, that lightbulb stays on. Three other 0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:16.479 lightbulbs come on. You turn off the first switch. Only 0:47:16.600 --> 0:47:18.839 one lightbulb goes off, and you start thinking, Okay, wait, 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:22.240 what how is this? Well, that's the thing about genes 0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:24.960 is that they it's not so simple as to say 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:29.040 that this one gene is in charge of this one trait. 0:47:29.800 --> 0:47:32.400 It's it can be much more complicated, where it's a 0:47:32.640 --> 0:47:36.000 a selection of genes that some are active, some are 0:47:36.040 --> 0:47:40.120 not active. Um So, because of that, even if you've 0:47:40.120 --> 0:47:44.960 got all the DNA from an entire population, you might 0:47:45.040 --> 0:47:48.279 be able to say, well, this one person suffered from 0:47:48.600 --> 0:47:52.839 a particular inherited disease. Let's examine the DNA and then 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:55.080 compare it to other people who have suffered from that 0:47:55.160 --> 0:47:57.160 same disease and see where the points of comparison are. 0:47:57.239 --> 0:48:00.600 But that is I mean, it's a monu mental task 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:06.760 because you just it's beyond taking points along a strand 0:48:07.040 --> 0:48:10.879 and comparing the them against a second sample. Right, it's 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:14.399 it's a it's another it's almost like a an order 0:48:14.480 --> 0:48:17.160 of magnitude greater in the amount of effort that you 0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:19.360 have to take. Yeah, that's a really good way to 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:22.080 put it. And that that a squatches some of my 0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:25.920 apien predictions. I do have one other question, all right, 0:48:26.239 --> 0:48:31.960 So we talked about in identical twins, right there, there 0:48:32.160 --> 0:48:37.279 is another, Um, there's another possibility where a person could 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:40.600 get pinched with the wrong DNA. Are you going with 0:48:40.680 --> 0:48:44.399 a clone? What's your Well, there's a there's another possibility. Wait, 0:48:44.520 --> 0:48:46.840 maybe not. It's not the same as identical twins, but 0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:54.200 it throws another monkey wrench into this. Uh uh chimeras. 0:48:54.920 --> 0:49:01.319 Oh interesting, Yeah, okay, uh, all right, Well I want 0:49:01.360 --> 0:49:03.279 to hear your thought process on this, because this is 0:49:03.360 --> 0:49:06.719 not something I specifically looked into, because chimerism is not 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:11.120 that it's super rare. Yeah, it's not that it's like 0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:15.080 an episode of SPU for that time. Um, And so yeah, 0:49:16.000 --> 0:49:18.759 it's true though it sounds crazy. And you guys talked 0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:20.960 about this on one of your other shows, right yeah, 0:49:20.960 --> 0:49:24.400 and Forward Thinking, we talked about cameras and yeah. It 0:49:24.480 --> 0:49:26.040 was one of those things where where the more you 0:49:26.120 --> 0:49:30.480 talked about it, the more the more like unsure I 0:49:30.680 --> 0:49:34.440 was that I was reflecting reality because it seems so weird. 0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:38.200 It seems very very strange. So it's a person composed 0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:44.279 of two genetically distinct types of cells. So you might have, um, 0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:46.920 I think the first time I was discovered it was 0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:49.640 related to blood type, right, yeah, I believe, So I 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:54.080 believe you're correct. So somebody had more than one blood type, 0:49:54.120 --> 0:49:56.920 which is already so trippy to me. I just felt 0:49:56.960 --> 0:50:00.680 like to do the to do just to this topic, 0:50:01.000 --> 0:50:04.279 we would have to mention that that is one of 0:50:04.360 --> 0:50:10.880 those very very exceedingly rare cases where DNA testing is 0:50:10.920 --> 0:50:14.480 not again a silver bullet. Yeah, so you could in 0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:19.600 a bizarre like this is almost like a science fiction novel. Yeah, 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:21.879 Like to the point where you're like, for this to work, 0:50:23.200 --> 0:50:25.440 so many things would have to fall in line perfectly 0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:27.840 that you might as well say it's impossible. But imagine 0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:30.360 that you have a scenario in which you have a 0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:33.520 chimera and DNA is left behind at the scene, but 0:50:33.600 --> 0:50:36.920 it's only one type of DNA somehow, and then the 0:50:37.040 --> 0:50:40.600 sample they get is somehow just the other type of DNA, 0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:47.440 thus exonerating your your perpetrator um practically. Yeah, there's no, 0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:52.080 it's impossible. The only way that that could really affect 0:50:52.160 --> 0:50:54.880 it is if there were somehow a chimera on the 0:50:55.800 --> 0:50:59.240 involved in this scene and it became a contaminating factors, 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:03.360 then they would say, well, aside from the victim, it 0:51:03.480 --> 0:51:05.960 seems it appears that there were three people here. Yes, 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:09.279 that that would certainly, that would certainly cause problems, right, 0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:12.680 that would certainly cause confusion in the whole process. But 0:51:12.760 --> 0:51:14.760 it's also so rare for someone to be a criminal. 0:51:14.960 --> 0:51:18.839 I think it's already yeah, begging beggaring belief right right, 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:21.360 like like like you you already have. Like if you 0:51:21.520 --> 0:51:24.160 think of the population of people who have some form 0:51:24.280 --> 0:51:29.000 of of that, you know, the chimera DNA thing going on, 0:51:29.600 --> 0:51:33.319 and then within that population, what percentage of those people 0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:38.120 are our master yeah, are are committing these sort of crimes. 0:51:38.600 --> 0:51:42.799 It's got to be pretty pretty small number. Sorry, man, 0:51:42.920 --> 0:51:44.560 I'm sorry, I just had to bring it up. No, No, 0:51:44.760 --> 0:51:46.759 it's fine, like you know, it's it's you know, but 0:51:47.040 --> 0:51:51.200 what if so one other thing I wanted to talk about. 0:51:51.320 --> 0:51:54.520 I almost forgot about this. So did you read up 0:51:54.600 --> 0:52:00.319 about the um the technology of reconstructing a person's face 0:52:00.680 --> 0:52:06.359 using just DNA material, and you, like you you had 0:52:06.400 --> 0:52:09.200 sent that to me off there, And I was initially 0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:13.239 skeptical when I was looking at it, but I'm out. 0:52:13.400 --> 0:52:16.759 It's it's called Snapshot, and it's from a company called 0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:20.520 Parabond and Snapshot what it's what it attempts to do 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:24.680 is take the information from a DNA sample and create 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:28.359 a essentially a police sketch of a person, a three 0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:34.160 dimensional uh representation of what a person might look like. Now, 0:52:34.239 --> 0:52:36.480 when I say might look like, you've got to be 0:52:36.760 --> 0:52:39.560 super generous with this because if all you have is 0:52:39.600 --> 0:52:42.239 the DNA, if that's all you have, like you don't 0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:46.920 have any any knowledge of what the person's face looks like, 0:52:47.000 --> 0:52:50.440 otherwise how old they are, they're height, or anything. What 0:52:50.640 --> 0:52:54.080 you'll be able to do is probably approximate their skin tone, 0:52:54.680 --> 0:52:59.759 their ethnicity, their gender, at least their biological gender there, 0:52:59.800 --> 0:53:02.960 they're hair color, their eye color, that kind of stuff, 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:05.080 whether or not they have freckles, that kind of thing. 0:53:06.040 --> 0:53:08.640 But beyond that, you're not gonna be able to tell 0:53:08.640 --> 0:53:10.840 their age. You're not gonna tell their higher weight, So 0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:13.960 you can't you can't tell how heavy said or thin 0:53:14.120 --> 0:53:16.120 they may be. How you don't know how much how 0:53:16.239 --> 0:53:19.600 much like what sort of wrinkles would you need to 0:53:19.600 --> 0:53:22.919 add in if they're you know, if they're older. Yeah, 0:53:22.920 --> 0:53:25.360 you wouldn't know any of that. Uh, And you wouldn't 0:53:25.400 --> 0:53:28.359 know their skull shape, Like you wouldn't know their face shape, right, 0:53:28.520 --> 0:53:31.160 like the DNA wouldn't. So, so what you can do 0:53:31.320 --> 0:53:34.200 is create like a very generic looking person but with 0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:38.000 those traits. So it may not be so useful in 0:53:38.160 --> 0:53:41.919 the sense of using this as a means of trying 0:53:41.960 --> 0:53:45.400 to track down the suspect there may not come in handy. 0:53:45.480 --> 0:53:48.800 Where it might help is if you have unidentified remains. 0:53:49.680 --> 0:53:52.760 So let's say you've found the remains of a person 0:53:53.040 --> 0:53:56.080 and you're able to extract some DNA information, but you're 0:53:56.120 --> 0:54:00.560 not able to ascertain the identity of this this person. Uh. 0:54:00.800 --> 0:54:03.880 This would allow you once if you have the person's 0:54:04.040 --> 0:54:06.320 like skull, like if if that's part of the remains 0:54:06.360 --> 0:54:08.800 that are left behind, you then know at least the 0:54:08.880 --> 0:54:12.440 dimensions of the skull. And there are also other technologies 0:54:12.719 --> 0:54:15.680 that allow people to approximate lot of person's face looks 0:54:15.719 --> 0:54:19.680 like based upon their skull shape. So combining those two 0:54:20.360 --> 0:54:22.759 where you you say, all right, this is what they're 0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:25.800 they probably look like based upon the the shape of 0:54:25.880 --> 0:54:30.120 their skull. Plus here are their characteristics that they had 0:54:30.320 --> 0:54:32.960 according to their d n A, then you might be 0:54:33.120 --> 0:54:36.560 able to create a few different looks for that particular 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:41.399 individual that might help in identifying who that person was. Yeah, 0:54:41.520 --> 0:54:45.480 and that that I think is the most tremendous possibility 0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:49.640 of this technology, absolutely right, because we're seeing already that 0:54:50.600 --> 0:54:54.000 the study of d n A and and the application 0:54:54.239 --> 0:54:58.720 of this sort of science has fundamentally changed the nature 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:02.120 of crime and investor negation. Yeah, to the point where 0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:07.160 again it can affect juries, uh and there and their 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:11.480 perception of a case to the So so it can 0:55:11.520 --> 0:55:13.560 be a frustration, right, like if you have if you 0:55:13.640 --> 0:55:17.040 have other lines of evidence that clearly indicate that the 0:55:17.120 --> 0:55:20.440 person accused of the crime has committed it, but because 0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:24.520 there was there was no DNA evidence, or maybe there 0:55:24.600 --> 0:55:27.080 was some problem with the chain of custody, that can 0:55:27.760 --> 0:55:31.439 create enough doubt in a jury's mind, a jury that's 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:33.640 been conditioned to believe the DNA evidence is the end 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:36.440 all be all that it can it can cause problems 0:55:36.719 --> 0:55:38.520 in that case. This is this is the thing, is 0:55:38.560 --> 0:55:42.200 that human beings were messy, right, Like we're not just 0:55:42.320 --> 0:55:44.680 messy and that we leave DNA behind. We're messy in 0:55:44.800 --> 0:55:49.080 the way we try to process information. And so sometimes 0:55:49.520 --> 0:55:52.920 you know, when you go through an entire process of 0:55:53.600 --> 0:55:58.080 when a crime is committed, to figuring out who potentially 0:55:58.160 --> 0:56:01.759 did it, to apprehend that person, to then trying that 0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:04.840 person for the crime, to then deciding whether or not 0:56:04.920 --> 0:56:08.279 they're guilty. I mean, there's so much stuff going on 0:56:08.480 --> 0:56:12.000 through that whole process. I hope you enjoyed that classic 0:56:12.080 --> 0:56:16.160 episode with Ben Bolan guest hosting. Was a lot of fun. 0:56:16.239 --> 0:56:19.480 Having him on always is fun. Occasionally you might hear 0:56:19.600 --> 0:56:22.320 me pop on his show Ridiculous History as a character 0:56:22.360 --> 0:56:26.600 called the Quister, where I am even more obnoxious than 0:56:26.680 --> 0:56:29.520 I am on this show. And I know that's hard 0:56:29.560 --> 0:56:32.880 to believe, but it is true. If you would like 0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:35.200 to reach out with suggestions for topics I should cover 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:36.960 on future episodes of Tech Stuff, there are a couple 0:56:36.960 --> 0:56:39.160 of different ways of doing that one is to download 0:56:39.239 --> 0:56:42.319 the I heart Radio app, navigate over to the text 0:56:42.360 --> 0:56:45.880 Stuff page, use little microphone icon, record a message up 0:56:45.920 --> 0:56:47.680 to thirty seconds in length letting me know what you 0:56:47.680 --> 0:56:50.560 would like me to cover, or you can reach out 0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:52.960 on Twitter. 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