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Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland, Diamond executive producer with iHeart Radio and how

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Speaker 1: the tech are you? It's time for a tech Stuff

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Speaker 1: classic episode. This episode is called d n A Forensics.

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Speaker 1: It originally published on October seventh, two thousand fifteen. In

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Speaker 1: this episode, Ben Bolan, host of such shows as Ridiculous

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Speaker 1: History as well as Stuff they Don't want you to

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Speaker 1: know and as a tireless producer, the kind of person

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Speaker 1: you can ask to be on your show and he'll

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Speaker 1: say yes, even if he's already committed to like a

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Speaker 1: billion other things, and he'll somehow find a way to

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Speaker 1: do all of them. I don't understand this man anyway.

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Speaker 1: He joined the show to talk about DNA forensics. Hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoy this classic episode. Ben has had people mark

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Speaker 1: all over him and crayon today. I'm not gonna ask

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Speaker 1: why I don't get into personal lives in the show. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a big deal. Whenever I could

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Speaker 1: be on the show and I wanted to do something special,

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Speaker 1: my suits at the cleaners got a bunch of sharpies

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Speaker 1: and asked people to go nuts. It's kind of like

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Speaker 1: body paint, but really they'll super like on the cheap

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Speaker 1: because we just can't. We don't have that in our budget, honestly, right,

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Speaker 1: not yet. But Hope springs eternal. And what's weird about

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Speaker 1: having um all these all these colors and markers all

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Speaker 1: over me is that anything I touched literally is leaving

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Speaker 1: a trace. Yeah, and that kind of you know, we

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Speaker 1: were going to have a really in depth conversation on

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Speaker 1: how catalytic converters work, but once I noticed you're doing that,

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Speaker 1: I thought, why don't we talk about DNA forensics, like

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Speaker 1: the traces people leave behind. So that's why I decided

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Speaker 1: to switch in the last minute. I hope you can

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Speaker 1: roll with it. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And just

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Speaker 1: in in you know, Ben and I have talked a

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Speaker 1: little bit about our our mutual interest in the true

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Speaker 1: crime uh discipline, the whole the whole true crime like field,

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Speaker 1: and it turns out we're not the only ones in

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Speaker 1: the office. There are certain people in the office who

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Speaker 1: have a really deep interest in this sort of stuff,

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Speaker 1: and so we thought, you know, it'd be kind of

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Speaker 1: fun to explore the concept in different shows. So if

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Speaker 1: you listen to all of How Stuff Work shows, you

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Speaker 1: may have noticed things popping up here and there that's

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Speaker 1: not entirely by accident, and so, uh really was one

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Speaker 1: of those things where as we all started talking, we're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would like to do something in that

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Speaker 1: and we can kind of It's almost like an easter

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Speaker 1: egg for those of you who subscribe to lots of

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Speaker 1: different shows, and you should let us know if you

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Speaker 1: thought it was really cool. So from the technology standpoint,

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Speaker 1: we thought DNA forensics would be really really interesting to

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Speaker 1: cover and to talk about how it actually works. Uh,

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Speaker 1: what are the processes, what are some of the challenges,

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Speaker 1: What are some of the things that people are doing

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Speaker 1: with DNA forensics now that might end up helping uh,

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Speaker 1: like investigations in the future where could it actually end

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Speaker 1: up giving us a false positive, because there there is

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Speaker 1: the possibility of that as well. But to start it

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Speaker 1: all off, we really kind of have to lay the groundwork. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna I was just gonna ask you. I

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Speaker 1: hate to be the bad kid in class right now,

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Speaker 1: but what's what's DNA d oxy ribonucleic acid, man, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what it is. It's so obviously you know,

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Speaker 1: anyone who's had science class, like a biology class anything recently,

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Speaker 1: you know all about DNA. But you know, we gotta

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Speaker 1: build from the ground up. So DNA is a molecule

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Speaker 1: that carries the genetic instructions that govern the development, function,

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Speaker 1: and reproduction of organisms. DNA is found in all of

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Speaker 1: your cells. Essentially, an entire blueprint of what makes you

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Speaker 1: you is in every single one of your cells in

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Speaker 1: the form of d N A UH. And the molecule

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Speaker 1: is in that double helix form. So that says, if

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Speaker 1: you were to make a ladder and then twisted in

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Speaker 1: to a twisty shape, that's the DNA double helix. The

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Speaker 1: rungs on that letter are made up of pairs of

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Speaker 1: what we call nucleotides, alright, So each rung on the

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Speaker 1: ladder is two different nucleotides that that bond together. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There's adenine and thymine. Those always pair up together. So

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Speaker 1: those are your two base pairs of nucleotides that will

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Speaker 1: always join. And then there's guanine and cytosine and those

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Speaker 1: always join. And it's the sequence of these pairs that

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Speaker 1: end up determining what makes you you. Right yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it could be. And these pairs can affect multiple

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Speaker 1: the order of these pairs can affect multiple characteristics. Sure, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And also what's really interesting to me is that point

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Speaker 1: nine of all the DNA that is in you is

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Speaker 1: shared with every other human Like we we have ninety

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Speaker 1: nine of our DNA in common, which means the stuff

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Speaker 1: that makes you who you are as indifferent from every

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Speaker 1: other person makes up just point one percent of your DNA.

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Speaker 1: But that's all it takes. Is that point one percent.

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Speaker 1: That's about three million base pairs that are unique to

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Speaker 1: you unless you have an identical sibling. Ah ah the

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Speaker 1: old Now this goes into um, this verges into some

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Speaker 1: good detective fiction. Now, yes, that old The evil twin, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't me. It was my evil twin or or

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Speaker 1: evil triplet or evil quadruplet really which we did an

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Speaker 1: ill fated brain Stuff but it was, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: we did. We did. Yeah. If you if you watch

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Speaker 1: brain Stuff the video series and you look up how

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Speaker 1: twins work, Ben and I did a funny At the time,

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Speaker 1: I thought I still thought there were parts of it

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Speaker 1: that were funny. Honestly, Ben, I still fully enjoy it,

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Speaker 1: but my sense of humor is very corny. So but

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Speaker 1: if you want to see you want to see me

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Speaker 1: and Ben dressing up in two different types of outfits,

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Speaker 1: like we're the the good Ben and Jonathan and then

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Speaker 1: there's the evil Ben and Jonathan and we each have

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Speaker 1: an eyepatch. Jonathan I were talking and it was it

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Speaker 1: was strange because when we were talking about doing this

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Speaker 1: episode and said, well, how could we represent evil twins

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Speaker 1: like I patch is clearly because you know, the the

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Speaker 1: goatee is not gonna work for right, because it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like neither of us were going to end up shaving

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Speaker 1: just so that I can be the good twin. But

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Speaker 1: both of us are the kind of person who would

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Speaker 1: have an I patch. And actually I ended up taking

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Speaker 1: a quick walk to a nearby toy store to pick

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Speaker 1: some up um. So, at any rate, if you do

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Speaker 1: have an identical sibling, your identical sibling shares your DNA.

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Speaker 1: There they are identical like the d N. If you

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Speaker 1: were to compare the two and look at those base pairs,

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Speaker 1: they're going to be the same all the way down, right,

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the that's one of the exceptions.

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Speaker 1: Really the exception so our DNA can be found in

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Speaker 1: twenty three pairs of chromosomes. That's what humans have. Not

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Speaker 1: all animals have that many, so have fewer, and etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: So chromosomes are ribbons of protein essentially have a strand

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Speaker 1: of DNA that are wrapped up in that and within

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Speaker 1: each pair, one chromosome comes from your mother, one chromosome

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Speaker 1: comes from your father, and that's what uh you know,

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Speaker 1: those are the ingredients that come together to create the

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Speaker 1: unique individual that is you and or your identical siblings.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, if we took look at each person's DNA

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Speaker 1: and pay attention to the order of those base pairs,

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Speaker 1: we get something like a d NA fingerprint. It is

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Speaker 1: unique to that person. But we can't just look at

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Speaker 1: one section. We have to look at several different sections

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Speaker 1: also known as loci in the in the parlance of

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Speaker 1: forensics to get a robust fingerprint profile. So, just as

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Speaker 1: we would look at a fingerprint and look for points

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Speaker 1: of comparison to from from a from a fingerprint that

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Speaker 1: we've gathered from a suspect, let's say, and a fingerprint

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Speaker 1: that is left at the scene of a crime, you

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Speaker 1: would have to look at several different points to make

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Speaker 1: sure that all those points correspond to one another to

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Speaker 1: say that there's a match. Same thing with DNA DNA forensics,

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Speaker 1: you would look at several different locations along a strand

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Speaker 1: of DNA and see if the same sequence of nucleo

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Speaker 1: tides were appearing on both sets, because that would tell

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Speaker 1: you what are the statistical probabilities of the person that

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Speaker 1: you suspect and the the evidence that was left behind

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Speaker 1: are one and the same, right, Okay, So each time

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Speaker 1: there's a new location, the more loci there are, the

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Speaker 1: more certitude you have that you've got your catch. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you were to say, look at just one location,

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Speaker 1: then that would mean you would have a very you know,

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Speaker 1: there's actually quite a good chance depending upon the sequence,

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Speaker 1: that coincidence could could completely explain away any any uh

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Speaker 1: duplication there. Right, So it could just be coincidence. It

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Speaker 1: could be that this person just coincidentally has that same sequence.

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Speaker 1: As you add more loci, that becomes less and less likely.

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Speaker 1: Uh FBI. The FBI has thirteen that they suggest, so

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Speaker 1: thirteen specific loca that's their standard, and that that results

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Speaker 1: in about a one in a billion chance that if

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Speaker 1: you were to take all thirteen loca and compare the

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Speaker 1: two strength you know, the stuff that was left at

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Speaker 1: the evidence and the suspect or whatever is in the database.

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Speaker 1: If you were to compare the two and they were

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Speaker 1: to come up equal at all thirteen, it's a one

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Speaker 1: in a billion chance that somebody else besides the person

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Speaker 1: you're looking at possesses that. So seven of the six

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Speaker 1: other people in the world. Yeah, it's like flash forward

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Speaker 1: to that day in court where someone's doing that horrible

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Speaker 1: reference joke and going, so you're saying that there's a chance. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And honestly, people who are analyzing the stuff they speak

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Speaker 1: in statistical probabilities, because you cannot say for certain that

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Speaker 1: this person left behind that DNA. You can say, like,

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Speaker 1: what is the statistical probability that they did? And then

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Speaker 1: you look at other elements of the case, right like saying,

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Speaker 1: all right, can we put the person in that area,

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Speaker 1: because let's say that it's in a small town. Well,

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Speaker 1: if it's a one in a billion chance and you

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Speaker 1: know that the suspect was in that small town, that's

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Speaker 1: a pretty darn compelling yeah, because why are the chances

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Speaker 1: of the other one of the other six people in

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Speaker 1: the entire world was also in that small town. Not good,

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Speaker 1: Ben and I will be back to talk more about

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Speaker 1: DNA forensics after we take this quick commercial break. So

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Speaker 1: where do we get the DNA evidence from? Well, stuff

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Speaker 1: that people leave behind, Uh, a much anything that has cells,

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Speaker 1: like living tissue that was left behind our living or

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Speaker 1: stuff where living cells could have been in before being

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Speaker 1: deposited at the crime scene. So stuff like blood or

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Speaker 1: saliva or semen or skin cells, mucus, ear wax, sweat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all of that, All of that can leave behind cells

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Speaker 1: that we can pull DNA from that. What about hair,

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Speaker 1: hair not so much, not not not for traditional DNA

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Speaker 1: hair follicles, yes, but hair itself is dead. Those are

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Speaker 1: dead cells. So you can do some some DNA analysis,

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Speaker 1: but not the the standard kind that most people use

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Speaker 1: in DNA. For instance, Uh, fingernails, same thing, but fingernails

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Speaker 1: often come with other tissue attached to it, and that's

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Speaker 1: where you find the DNA. So if we want to

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Speaker 1: look at the history of people actually saying hey, why

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Speaker 1: don't we use this this DNA stuff to try and

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Speaker 1: help with investigations, you've got to look back to the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties when a brit named Alec Jefferies, who now

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Speaker 1: you may refer to as Professor Sir Alec John Jefferies

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Speaker 1: f R S hang okay, good, Professor Sir Alec John Jeffries, FRS. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that would be his full title. Now. He hit upon

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Speaker 1: the idea of using DNA as a means of genetic fingerprinting,

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Speaker 1: and he realized that the unique sequences of DNA could

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Speaker 1: serve as a means to link an individual to a

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Speaker 1: scene where DNA samples were found. And his process was

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Speaker 1: first applied in the court system in nineteen eight five.

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Speaker 1: In that case, it was an it was an immigration case.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like a murder or a rape or something

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Speaker 1: like that. It was to ascertain if the identity of

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Speaker 1: a British boy was actually related to a family who

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Speaker 1: had originally immigrated to the United Kingdom from elsewhere. And

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Speaker 1: he did. Uh. The first time it was used in

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Speaker 1: a criminal case would be nine seven. That was yeah,

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Speaker 1: not not long after, and that wasn't a case. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The The suspect was named Colin Pitchfork, which is a

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Speaker 1: heck of a name. Talking about nominative determinism, Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he was arrested on suspicion of rape and murder, and

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Speaker 1: he was the first criminal cut as a result of

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Speaker 1: DNA screening. So this was DNA screen that led to

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Speaker 1: his capture. He actually confessed to his crimes, so the

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Speaker 1: DNA didn't lead to his conviction. He confessed UH and

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Speaker 1: he received life in prison as a result. So I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk a little bit before we get into

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Speaker 1: some of the pros and cons about what actually happens

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Speaker 1: with DNA because you hear like DNA forensics and you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: what goes into that? Yeah, this is a great thing

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Speaker 1: to contextualize right now because there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: fans and tech stuff who have probably seen and scoffed

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Speaker 1: at the various entertaining but inaccurate crimes shows c s I,

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Speaker 1: CSI being the big one, Like they're there are are

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Speaker 1: FRIENDSIC specialists who say that c s I is probably

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Speaker 1: one of the most damaging things that have happened to

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Speaker 1: their their career path ever because people have unrealistic expectations, specifically,

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Speaker 1: juries have unrealistic expectations, which can hurt a trial case

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Speaker 1: because juries will often one want DNA UH data when

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Speaker 1: it's not even relevant to a case. Like they're like

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Speaker 1: it's not necessary for them to make a determination in

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Speaker 1: a case, but they want it because it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things that people associate with. Oh, d NA gets

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Speaker 1: you the the locked in answer was that person there

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Speaker 1: were they not there? Um, just run the DNA enhanced

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Speaker 1: the photograph. I see what the problem right? Exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's pull up one of those three dimensional holographic images.

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Speaker 1: We're just we're just throw every single science fiction CSI

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Speaker 1: trope in there, so early friends. Now, this actually used

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Speaker 1: a process called restriction fragment length polymorphism or r f LP,

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Speaker 1: and that involves taking a sample of DNA that has

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Speaker 1: repeating base pairs, like they can repeat from anywhere between

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Speaker 1: one and thirty times. They're called variable number tandem repeats

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Speaker 1: or v N t r s. And what they would

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Speaker 1: do is they would dissolve this DNA in an enzyme

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Speaker 1: to break the strand at specific locations along that the DNA.

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Speaker 1: So uh saying like, um, when there are this many repetitions,

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Speaker 1: this enzyme is going to break the strand at that point,

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Speaker 1: so that way we can measure how long the strand

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Speaker 1: DNA is in and out point. Yeah, So imagine that

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Speaker 1: you've got like a ribbon, right, And let's say that

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Speaker 1: little ribbon is maybe three ft long, and you're going

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Speaker 1: to cut out a six inch segment of that ribbon.

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Speaker 1: Use this enzyme, and it cuts it at the very

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Speaker 1: specific locations along that strand that you want. You do

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Speaker 1: the same thing with the material that was left behind

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Speaker 1: at the scene. So let's say you've got you've got

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Speaker 1: your your DNA sample from your suspect, you've got the

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Speaker 1: sample from the scene, and you compare the two and

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Speaker 1: you're essentially measuring them against each other, like literally measuring

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Speaker 1: the length of them, because it's those repeating pairs that

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Speaker 1: determine how long that segment is. So if the two

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Speaker 1: are about the same length, or actually they are the

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Speaker 1: same length, then you know, or at least you you

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Speaker 1: have a good uh inclination to say that this person

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Speaker 1: was the one who left behind that DNA. That's not

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Speaker 1: really used that frequently anymore, but more frequently now we

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Speaker 1: use a method called short tandem repeat analysis, which is

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Speaker 1: more reliable, more popular, And in this method, analysts take

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Speaker 1: a sample of DNA and they count the repetition of

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Speaker 1: those base pairs along certain locations the loci of that sample.

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Speaker 1: So for or five base pair repeats, like where you

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Speaker 1: get you know, your your those nucleo tied pairings I

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Speaker 1: talked about, sometimes those pairings repeat in a sequence, right,

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Speaker 1: They look for uh, preferably four or five base pair

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Speaker 1: repeat segments. So that way, because it's less likely than

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Speaker 1: if you would have two or three in a row. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the more you have in a row, the less likely

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Speaker 1: you're going to find that exact same repetition in another

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Speaker 1: in an unrelated person's DNA. And these are by the way,

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Speaker 1: called tetra nucleotide or penta nucleotide repetitions because of the

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Speaker 1: number tetra being four, penta being five. Um. There, those

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Speaker 1: are best in order to indicate an accurate match. So

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Speaker 1: the FBI, like I said, says, thirteen specific locai to

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Speaker 1: find this, you would do this in thirteen different locations

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Speaker 1: along the strand of DNA. And if you were to

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Speaker 1: find these, uh, these base pair repeats that are identical

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Speaker 1: in both and both samples, that's a really good indication

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Speaker 1: that they belong to the same person. And this this

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Speaker 1: investigation technique, while it is while it's pretty solid and

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Speaker 1: there's solid science behind it, it doesn't work in every

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Speaker 1: in every case, it's not a silver bullet, and this

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Speaker 1: is kind of some dark territory. Yeah yeah. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there there are a lot of reasons why, uh, this

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Speaker 1: can be this can be problematic. Um. One other thing

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about before we get into the challenges,

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Speaker 1: specifically things like contamination and chain of possession and this

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Speaker 1: chain of custody, thank you, before we get into that,

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Speaker 1: is to talk about all right, So you know, I

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Speaker 1: gave these these overviews of how they're analyzing the DNA,

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Speaker 1: but one of the big issues here is that often

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Speaker 1: when you're in the field and you're looking for anything

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Speaker 1: that has you know, remnants of DNA on it, you

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Speaker 1: may not have a very large sample to work with, Right,

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Speaker 1: So you've got a tiny amount of d and a

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Speaker 1: how do you make sure you can do the tests

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Speaker 1: you need with a tiny little amount? And the answer

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Speaker 1: is you duplicate the crap out of it? What how? Yeah? Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this is this is gonna get super weird because

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get into molecular biology and chemistry. But starting it,

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Speaker 1: I want to Okay. So they use a process called

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Speaker 1: polymerase chain reaction or PCR to duplicate a specific region

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Speaker 1: of the DNA in a sample. So this process was

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Speaker 1: developed in three by Carrie Mullis who actually he won

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Speaker 1: a Nobel Prize in chemistry for his work in this field.

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Speaker 1: And what they'll do, because they'll take samples of DNA,

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Speaker 1: they'll take a string of DNA. So you've got your

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Speaker 1: double helix right, and then you heat it to between

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Speaker 1: ninety four and ninety six degrees celsius for a few minutes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's almost boiling um for a few minutes. And

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Speaker 1: this is to d nature the sample, which means that

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Speaker 1: the DNA straightens out, so it's no longer a twisted ladder,

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Speaker 1: it's a ladder, and the rungs split apart. So those

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Speaker 1: base pairs split and you get two strands, two half

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Speaker 1: strands of DNA, all right, So then you end up

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Speaker 1: changing the temperature. You lower it to between fifty and

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Speaker 1: sixty five degrees celsius for a few minutes. That first

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Speaker 1: one only takes a few minutes to so you lower

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Speaker 1: it down to fifty to six degrees celsius for a

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Speaker 1: few more minutes. That allows the left and right primers.

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Speaker 1: These are small sections of DNA that have matching nucleo

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Speaker 1: tides to the two separated pieces that you've created. Think

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Speaker 1: of them as almost like half zippers. So you've got

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Speaker 1: the right and left half of a zipper on either

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Speaker 1: like they're they're spreading out there there there's apart from

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Speaker 1: one another. You've got a small section that interlocks with

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Speaker 1: each side. Because that you've got the the complementary base pairs. Uh,

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Speaker 1: those will then connect to those sections. Now that's only

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Speaker 1: a tiny little part overall part of the full DNA.

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Speaker 1: But um. They then raise the temperature to seventy two

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Speaker 1: degrees celsius for a few minutes to allow the tach

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Speaker 1: polyme race. Now this is the material that can then

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Speaker 1: build and synthesize new DNA to the two separate strands.

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Speaker 1: So if you think about it like a video game.

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Speaker 1: All right, so you get your little you get your

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Speaker 1: little segment that's locked onto the half ladder of DNA,

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Speaker 1: the stuff you started off with in the first place.

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Speaker 1: At one end of that, imagine that you get a

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Speaker 1: little bitty blob, all right, a little big blob just

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Speaker 1: builds the corresponding rungs and goes down the line rebuilding

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Speaker 1: the DNA. And it doesn't you know, there's one on

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Speaker 1: both sides. There's a primer on each half strand of DNA,

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Speaker 1: so at the end of this process you end up

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Speaker 1: with two strands of d N. A. Okay, we've got

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Speaker 1: more to say in this classic episode of tech stuff

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Speaker 1: after these quick messages. Now you started with one, but

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Speaker 1: because you've used this molecular biology slash chemistry approach, you've

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Speaker 1: been able to duplicate it. And then you repeat that process,

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Speaker 1: so you do it again. Those two become four, the

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Speaker 1: four become a You see how this expands very rapidly.

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Speaker 1: You do it over and over, so that way, even

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Speaker 1: if you started with a very small sample of DNA,

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Speaker 1: by the end you've got plenty to work with, so

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Speaker 1: you don't have to worry about you know, we had

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Speaker 1: one little drop of sweat at the scene and and

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Speaker 1: we blew it on on a test that didn't work out.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about that. I'm sorry to

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Speaker 1: be like, uh, emotionally or mentally a nine year old here, Jonathan,

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Speaker 1: but can we can we make it a booker? I

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Speaker 1: just love picture in us as cops or like no,

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Speaker 1: no one knows who stole the bus. We have only

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Speaker 1: this single the mysterious picker has struck again. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so you're in Yeah, well we weren't talking about urine.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about the boogers, all right, you got me.

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Speaker 1: But this is but this is a great that that's

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Speaker 1: a great explanation of how this occurs. Because given that

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Speaker 1: you're essentially destroying the evidence every time that you you

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Speaker 1: conduct this kind of this, this kind of investigation, than

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Speaker 1: being able to reproduce it is fundamental. Yeah, it's absolutely

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Speaker 1: key because again, if you do not have very much

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Speaker 1: of that material, then you really have to be careful.

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Speaker 1: And there are a lot of things that can complicate this,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of where we were leading to a

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Speaker 1: little bit earlier. There are a lot of reasons why

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Speaker 1: you cannot just say that DNA forensics is going to

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Speaker 1: solve you know, the crimes out there as long as

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Speaker 1: someone's left something behind. Because even though it's versatile, even

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Speaker 1: though we have this amazing capability, life is weird and

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Speaker 1: things can go wrong, and they can go wrong either

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Speaker 1: accidentally or on purpose. So one thing that can happen

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Speaker 1: is multiple people could be involved in a an incident

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Speaker 1: crime of some sort, and so the more people who

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Speaker 1: are involved, the harder it is. To be absolutely certain

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Speaker 1: that the DNA samples you're working with all linked to

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Speaker 1: a specific individual. In fact, there are currently some changes

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Speaker 1: in the way DNA can be handled UH in cases

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Speaker 1: court cases actually to the point where it's in the

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Speaker 1: legal case since UH in Texas and other places as well,

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Speaker 1: and so forensics labs are having to put in greater

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Speaker 1: restrictions because forensics analysts would go into testify in court

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Speaker 1: cases and say, there's a one in a billion chance

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Speaker 1: this belonged to someone else. But if you start the

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Speaker 1: factor in that there is more than one person's DNA

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Speaker 1: found at the scene and the contamination issues that result

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Speaker 1: from that, then people would say like, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: really it's more like one in a thousand or one

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Speaker 1: in a hundred. And then at this point you might say, well,

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Speaker 1: the DNA evidence is not strong enough for it to

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Speaker 1: be a compelling argument for the guilt or innocence of

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Speaker 1: a person, because there's enough like if you're in a

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Speaker 1: really dense urban area and you say there's a one

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Speaker 1: and a hundred chance that's you know, it's it's hard

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Speaker 1: to say that shouldn't introduce reasonable doubt that it doesn't

430
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: meet the burden of reasonable doubts. But and then you

431
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: have to try to chase down all the other possibilities.

432
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: And that's that's if there are multiple people involved. But

433
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: even if there's not multiple people involved, obviously you have

434
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: to be very cognizant of the possibility of contamination. Yeah, okay,

435
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: we we can talk about this a little bit, because

436
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: we this is something that you might not see on

437
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: Hollywood as often as you see it in real life. Yes, exactly, Jonathan.

438
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: So let's say you know the Let's say you're the detective,

439
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: right and Noel is the prosecutor, and I'm the I'm

440
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: the JABRONI at the scene. You was supposed to pick

441
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: up the stuff and bring it, right, Yeah, So you're

442
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: you're your job is to actually go in and collect

443
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: the evidence before anyone else can go through that area, right, Yeah,

444
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: because as soon as you introduce other people, then you've

445
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: introduced other DNA that could be left at the scene.

446
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: But I've been having a I've been having a crazy

447
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: time work lately, and I've been cutting corners a little

448
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: and everybody knows. Nobody said anything yet because it's not

449
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: a big deal yet. But here's what happens. Uh, while

450
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: I'm on while I collect the evidence. Let's see, I

451
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: get blood samples, and I'm on the way back. I

452
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 1: stop it cook out because my diet is as much

453
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: of a train wreck as my life, and and because

454
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: I'm personable, I shake hands with six people as I'm

455
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: walking back into our holding, right, I don't wash my hands.

456
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: And I also kept the sample for some reason, in

457
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: the bag from cookout. Yeah, that would there there might

458
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: be a chance that that was encountered some form of

459
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: contamination from the scene to the point where you get

460
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: to the lab and then you you run the d NA. Yeah, right, Well,

461
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: clearly the suspect was a roast pig. Right, Yeah, clearly

462
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: suspect was a roast pig. Or even more dangerously, Uh,

463
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: clearly the suspect, Uh, the suspect maybe someone that already

464
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: pings in our database, who just got out of prison

465
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: for grand theft auto and now works out of cookout. Yeah. Yeah,

466
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: that's I mean that that's a you know, it's it

467
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: seems like it's a convoluted example, except for the fact

468
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: that this is the source of stuff that can happen r. Yeah,

469
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: it's not. I would say it's possible, but that one

470
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: is not plausible. No, No, But but the example you

471
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: give does show that there has to be great care

472
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: the the people who come in to collect the evidence

473
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: have to do so before there can be a lot

474
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 1: of disturbance of the crime scene. Because the more disturbance

475
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: there there is, like I said, the more chances other

476
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: people will leave behind DNA skin cells, or or um

477
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 1: sweat or blood or whatever it might be. Um might

478
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: be that there were other people who were involved in

479
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: it who have no or you know, people who maybe

480
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: the person who stumbled upon the scene left something behind

481
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: without intending to, like cutting a hand on a on

482
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: a piece of glass or something, letting themselves into see

483
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: what's happened. Yeah, even something as simple as that. So

484
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: there's there's that you have to be aware of contamination there.

485
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: You also have to be aware of contamination through the

486
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: moment you've collected it, all the way through the testing phase.

487
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: So that's where the chain of custody comes in. By

488
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: the way, if you ever see people like putting stuff

489
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: in plastic bags in order to preserve it, that's pretty

490
00:28:53,520 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: much a fiction because plastic will will contain moisture, right anything,

491
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: Any moisture that's in the bag will stay there and

492
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: moisture can can degrade DNA samples, so usually they're actually

493
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: put in paper, so it's usually a paper envelope or

494
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: a paper bag that's quickly labeled, and then there's this

495
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: chain of custody that must be documented through the entire

496
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: process until it gets to the lab, and then at

497
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: the lab. Even at the lab, they have to be

498
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: very careful with the equipment they're using. They have to

499
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: make certain that it's completely clean and that way you

500
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: don't end up cross contaminating from a previous test into

501
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: your current test. That's happened a couple of times. There

502
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: actually been a couple of cases. Yeah, there was a

503
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: case where, uh, there was a victim of a crime

504
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: and there was another crime that was committed, and the

505
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: initial DNA test results of the crime that was committed

506
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: came back with the victim from the other crime as

507
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: a positive. And they realized that the reason why that

508
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: was happening was that there were two different DNA tests

509
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: that had been performed, and the victim from the first

510
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: one that their DNA had not been completely cleaned out

511
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: of the system before they started doing the next test,

512
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: and so they were getting these false positives, and they

513
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: knew it couldn't have been the victim because the victim

514
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: was the victim was victimized, the victim was not capable

515
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: of committing that crime. Um. So it was already like

516
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: one of those things that proved that there was an

517
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: issue here. And in almost every case, in fact, I'll

518
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: go ahead say the vast majority of cases, this has

519
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: to do with a person either mistakenly or purposefully, not

520
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: following procedure or not making certain that that everything is

521
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: on the up and up. Rather than the process itself

522
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: being a failure, it's it's it's a human error, either

523
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: intentional or otherwise introduced typically um. And so another thing

524
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: that you have to worry about is whether or not

525
00:30:54,320 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: someone has purposefully introduced DNA. There have been cases where

526
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: in order to try and either uh, to hide one's

527
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: involvement in a crime or to implicate someone else specifically

528
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: in a crime, people have left behind samples of DNA

529
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: in order to throw people, throw investigators off the track.

530
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: Whether again, whether it is to protect yourself, like let's

531
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: say that you committed the crime and you leave behind

532
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: the DNA of you know, your uh, your your hated cousin.

533
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: So that your cousin takes the rapid you don't, or

534
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: you're an investigator and you're like, well, there's this really

535
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: awful guy, and we want to get him for this crime.

536
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: We really like him for this crime, but we don't

537
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: have the direct evidence for him. However, I do have

538
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: this DNA from a separate incident. I can leave this

539
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: behind the crime scene collected, and therefore we can finally

540
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: get the guy. I'm pretty sure he did it anyway,

541
00:31:52,840 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: you know, solid solid. Yeah. So that's again, this is

542
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: not something that happens all the time. It's not not

543
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: something that's even prevalent, but it's it's one of those

544
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: things that you have to be aware of. That's why

545
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: these things like the chain of custody is so important

546
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: to maintain. I have a question, sure, uh, And I

547
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm jumping ahead here, no, please ask,

548
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: But I was kind of foreshadowing this while we're asking

549
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: about hair follicles. So the it sounds like the home

550
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: run for UH, for DNA testing would be something, as

551
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: you said, containing living cells, so blood, bodily fluid, stuff

552
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: like that. But if that's a home run, the kind

553
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: of stuff that people are much more likely to leave

554
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: behind would be things like hair follicles or flakes of skin.

555
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: You know, so, what what's the deal with that? How

556
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: how does that work? It's still the same same process

557
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: in the sense that these are things that can leave

558
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: behind traces of DNA, like as long as as long

559
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: as for instance, let's say that you have h you're

560
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: at a murder scene scene and you are you are

561
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: investigating one of the things, You're going to look for

562
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: our traces of any skin under the victim's fingernails, because

563
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: that that's a an indication that the victim fought back

564
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: against his or her murderer and may in fact have

565
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: samples of that skin underneath his or her fingernails. And

566
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: so you can collect that and then do the same

567
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: process I was talking about. You can extract the DNA

568
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: from those cells and then do the same process to

569
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: duplicate that DNA and then run it either against suspects

570
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: DNA or or use a database. We mentioned the databases

571
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: briefly to a little bit about yeah, let's do that,

572
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: because there are a couple of different ones. There there

573
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: are state databases, there's a national database, and then there's

574
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: the FBI's database. Uh So, These are all databases that

575
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: contain the DNA information of various people who have been

576
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: booked for specific types of crimes. It's not every crime.

577
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: Don't worry, the FBI does not have your genetic blueprint

578
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: because one time you purposely parked in a handicap spot.

579
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: Although Jonathan and Nolan I do judge you for that, Yes,

580
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: we think you should definitely never do that. If you don't,

581
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: if you do not have a the handicap label, uh,

582
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: then don't park in that spot. But now these are

583
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: specifically pretty serious crimes where that's really the only way

584
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: that they that that the state or federal government is

585
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: allowed to to collect a DNA sample from you to

586
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: use in this database when they've got a lot of people.

587
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: I've got some statistics here to yeah, please hit me. Okay,

588
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: so let's let's go with the big one, right, Okay,

589
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: The big one here in the States is the National

590
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: DNA Index or in d I S. That's the that's

591
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: the Fed's, that's the FBI. It contains a little under

592
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: twelve million offender profiles, specifically eleven million, eight hundred twenty two,

593
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: nine hundred and twenty seven. It has to a little

594
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: over two million R s D profiles and a little

595
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: over six hundred thousand forensic profiles. That's as of June.

596
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: If you visit the FBI's website, you can learn a

597
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: lot about their biometric analysis, which does also contain print work.

598
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: It's it's sort of a mixtape of all the stuff

599
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: that they could use to investigate. And here's the thing

600
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: you can do if you live in the US and

601
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: you would like to feel a little bit less comfortable

602
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: each day. Okay, it's there's a breakdown by state, so

603
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: you can see how many offender profiles are are located

604
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: in your state. Here in Georgia, in our case, it's

605
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: two hundred nine five thousand, nine hundred and thirty eight.

606
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: Considering the population of Georgia, that is a significant number. Right.

607
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: You can see the forensics profiles, the arrestees. You can

608
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: also see the number of investigations aided in labs participate. Now,

609
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: one of the things I want to point out is

610
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: that this also goes back into the drawbacks or the

611
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: challenges of forensics, is that forensic labs can get really

612
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: backed up with this stuff, Like the backlogs can be

613
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: can be crazy because while I I you know, I

614
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: mentioned that process just for duplicating the DNA. That can

615
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: take a couple of hours to do that process, and

616
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: then of course you've got all the cleaning of the

617
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: material that has to happen in order for you to

618
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: be able to use it again. That's not that doesn't

619
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: even involve the actual analysis of the DNA that tends

620
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: to require a forensic specialist to do this. It's not

621
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: like it's all automated, although there are more and more

622
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: automated systems that help, but generally speaking, it's it's sort

623
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: of an augmented approach where you still have forensic expert

624
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: do the the look you know they're doing. They're looking

625
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: at the DNA to look at those base pairs and

626
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: actually makes certain visually that they are in fact identical.

627
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: So it takes a lot of time. And meanwhile, while

628
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: you're doing all this, more samples are coming in, so

629
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: there's a backlog that starts to build up, and depending

630
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: upon the area and the number of labs that are available,

631
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: it might be a very serious backlog. And there was

632
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: also a pre existing backlog because if we look at

633
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 1: how recently this occurred and off air we talked about

634
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: this in the course of your research. You send in

635
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: some great stuff about cold cases. Yeah, so there was

636
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 1: already a built in backlog for this technology, and they're

637
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: already been cases of people who were in jail for years, decades, Yeah,

638
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: who were innocent. Yeah, yeah, where the DNA evidence ended

639
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: up clearing them like it could not possibly have been

640
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: that person. Um. And you know, actually, that's when I

641
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: say that there are some serious restrictions and tax us

642
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: about this multi person DNA approach. It's specifically so that

643
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 1: there is every attempt to make certain that innocent people

644
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 1: aren't incarcerated. There is a huge obviously there's a huge

645
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: pressure on law enforcement to to assign guilt and uh

646
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: and bring somebody in for particularly awful crimes. And there's

647
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: an enormous pressure because of course, the community wants to

648
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: feel safe, they want to feel that something is being done.

649
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: That has to be balanced against making sure you get

650
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: the right person. Yeah. Yeah, because we know that we

651
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: live in an age of instant gratification. Yeah, things should

652
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: be right immediately and right the first time and right

653
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: now and right now, yes, the three rights. But unfortunately

654
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: the wheels of justice hows those saying go. Man, they

655
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 1: grinds low but exceedingly fine. Yes, as opposed to go

656
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: round and round. Yes, the wheels in the bus. I

657
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: was thinking, you know we would be here, terrible lawyers. Yeah,

658
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: we would be Actually, I know I would be. I

659
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 1: remember participating in a mock trial in school and not

660
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: knowing what the heck I was doing? What was your

661
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: what was your rule? I was defense and it was terrible.

662
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: It was terrible. I did not want to do it.

663
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: I was. I was. I was bullied into it and

664
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: I it was awful. I could see you doing like

665
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: a judge or maybe a bailiff who's over it, like

666
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: sit down. Yeah, no, I was. Uh my my client

667
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: would have gotten the chair. It was terrible for a

668
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: very minor offense too, That's how bad I was. We'll

669
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 1: wrap up this discussion about DNA forensics after this quick break.

670
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: So I away getting back into DNA forensics. Uh so, yeah,

671
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: you mentioned cold cases. I've got one specific one I'll mention,

672
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: and it's not it's one that has not been um

673
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: seen to completion yet. In other words, there there hasn't

674
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: been a conviction yet in this case, but it does

675
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 1: show how how far reaching this can go. So in December,

676
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: the body of a young lady named Crystal Lynn bez

677
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: bes Lana, which was found along the Provo River in Utah.

678
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: She was seventeen years old when she was killed, and

679
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: she had been sexually assaulted and murdered, uh perhaps bludgeoned

680
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: to death with rocks. That was what the police believed

681
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: at the time. Now, the original investigator of the crime,

682
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: it was a guy who became the the deputy sheriff,

683
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,919
Speaker 1: I believe, but Todd Bonner decided to continue investigation even

684
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: long after all the leads were drying up, like they

685
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: just could not find any leads, and in a lab

686
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: was able to extract what's called touch DNA. It was

687
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 1: left behind on a granite rock that the police had

688
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: believed was used in killing this young lady, and the

689
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: lab used a vacuum instrument to pull this touch DNA

690
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: off the granite rock and then put it through this

691
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: analysis process and the results ended up matching DNA from

692
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: a suspect that people were interested in but had no

693
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: direct connection to the crime. The suspect's name was Joseph

694
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: Michael Simpson, and they got the sample DNA from a

695
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: discarded cigarette butt he had tossed us a cigarette but

696
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: the cops scooped it up, they tested the DNA, they

697
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: found a match. They arrested him back in Uh, he

698
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: has a previous conviction for murder. He had actually been

699
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: out on parole for eight months for before Brasilanta, which

700
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: is death. Yeah, so he had been in jail for

701
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: several years but got paroled and then uh, eight months

702
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: later Brisilana, which was dead, and he's been linked to

703
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: this and arrested for the crime. Now that being said,

704
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: the last I checked into this case, you know, that

705
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 1: was back in the last I checked into this case.

706
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: It's still not it still hasn't been tried. There's been

707
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: request for more evidence on the prosecution side, including uh

708
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: an actual DNA sample from Simpson himself to confirm that

709
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: the findings are in fact accurate, so in other words,

710
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: not just from the cigarette, but but from Simpson in custody.

711
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: And then there's also a request to get a print

712
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: sample because of a partial print that was left behind

713
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: on the victim herself. So, uh, this case is not

714
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: one that's like cut and dry and it's definitive, but

715
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: it does Indica eight that this approach is able to

716
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: start pulling up connections that otherwise would have been unlikely

717
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: or even impossible to make. And this brings us to

718
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: this is just a sidebar, Okay, this brings us to

719
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: a dangerous thing. And you know, of course that I

720
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: who can sometimes be a cartoon of myself and am

721
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: required to mention this. What do you think about the

722
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: idea of blanket DNA sampling? They're taking every citizen. You know,

723
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: some prominent members of the UK legal system have advocated

724
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: this for all British citizens, and Kuwait is doing the

725
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: same thing. Well, let me put it to you this way. Okay.

726
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: There's always the argument that some people will make that

727
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: if you're not doing anything wrong, then what do you

728
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 1: have to fear? Right, Well, here's what you have to fear,

729
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you. Okay. So there have been at

730
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: least a couple of companies that have shown that through

731
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: a little bit of your DNA, they and do a

732
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 1: very similar process to duplicating DNA, which means that they

733
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: can synthesize your DNA, which means then that if your

734
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 1: DNA can be synthesized, it could be created and dropped somewhere.

735
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: And you had never been to that place. Oh wow,

736
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: So you all of a sudden, you get a summons

737
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 1: for some horrendous crime in uh Iceland or something. You say,

738
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 1: I've never been Yeah, this is the weirdest thing because

739
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: I've never been there. Like, but this is match to

740
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: your DNA. There's a one and a billion chance that

741
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: someone else did this, um and you you know that's

742
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: that's a thing like, that's we're in a world where

743
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: technologically it is possible to do this. Now, is that

744
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: likely to happen? It's definitely, like and it's in the

745
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: realm of possibility, but not plausibility. However, as long as

746
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: it's possible, then I would argue that it is too

747
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: invasive to demand from your population that everyone submit to

748
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: d n A like submitting a DNA sample and yeah, yeah,

749
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: what about well, let's take a step further. What about

750
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: the idea that there would be what about the idea

751
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: that this stuff, which is you set a blueprint in

752
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: some ways. Also it's it's similar to metadata. Okay, let's

753
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: I can see where you're saying. So the ability then

754
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 1: to build this enormous sample size let's say the entire

755
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: population of the UK. I think right now they're only

756
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 1: at maybe five of the population because you have to

757
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: get you know, you have to get pinched. So if

758
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: they had this enormous sample size, then they could start

759
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 1: comparing and collating and analyzing this stuff on a larger

760
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: scale such that they would be able to possibly again

761
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: possibly not plausibly, uh predict um not epo genetic trends,

762
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 1: but but predict the likelihood of someone incurring a certain

763
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: disease or something. Well, we're getting into more of a

764
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: genomic sequencing at that point. Yeah, yeah, when you're when

765
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: you're getting into genomic sequencing, it's it's much further, it's

766
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: much it's a much longer process. Because again, this is

767
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: very close to when they call a genetic fingerprinting. It

768
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: makes sense to call it that because you're really just

769
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: looking at the physical resemblance of two strands, right, Like

770
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: like two drawings and there are two drawings of ladders,

771
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: and if the two drawings of ladders are the same,

772
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: then you know you've got a one and a billion

773
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: chance of it not being that person. So that's a

774
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: lot different than going through and identifying things like which

775
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: genes do want I mean, we still don't even know, right,

776
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: So in case you guys are not terribly familiar with

777
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: with genetics. The genes can be pretty complicated things. Think

778
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: about like a giant switchboard. Right, You've got an enormous switchboard,

779
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: and there's like a thousand switches on little metal toggle switches,

780
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: the classic up down toggle switches. Right, unlabeled. That you

781
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: have a bank of lightbulbs in front of you, also unlabeled.

782
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: You flip one switch and one lightbulb comes on. You

783
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: flip a second switch, that lightbulb stays on. Three other

784
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,479
Speaker 1: lightbulbs come on. You turn off the first switch. Only

785
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 1: one lightbulb goes off, and you start thinking, Okay, wait,

786
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: what how is this? Well, that's the thing about genes

787
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: is that they it's not so simple as to say

788
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: that this one gene is in charge of this one trait.

789
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: It's it can be much more complicated, where it's a

790
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: a selection of genes that some are active, some are

791
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: not active. Um So, because of that, even if you've

792
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: got all the DNA from an entire population, you might

793
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: be able to say, well, this one person suffered from

794
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 1: a particular inherited disease. Let's examine the DNA and then

795
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: compare it to other people who have suffered from that

796
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: same disease and see where the points of comparison are.

797
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: But that is I mean, it's a monu mental task

798
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 1: because you just it's beyond taking points along a strand

799
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 1: and comparing the them against a second sample. Right, it's

800
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 1: it's a it's another it's almost like a an order

801
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: of magnitude greater in the amount of effort that you

802
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: have to take. Yeah, that's a really good way to

803
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: put it. And that that a squatches some of my

804
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: apien predictions. I do have one other question, all right,

805
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: So we talked about in identical twins, right there, there

806
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: is another, Um, there's another possibility where a person could

807
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: get pinched with the wrong DNA. Are you going with

808
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 1: a clone? What's your Well, there's a there's another possibility. Wait,

809
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: maybe not. It's not the same as identical twins, but

810
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: it throws another monkey wrench into this. Uh uh chimeras.

811
00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, Yeah, okay, uh, all right, Well I want

812
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: to hear your thought process on this, because this is

813
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: not something I specifically looked into, because chimerism is not

814
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: that it's super rare. Yeah, it's not that it's like

815
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: an episode of SPU for that time. Um, And so yeah,

816
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: it's true though it sounds crazy. And you guys talked

817
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: about this on one of your other shows, right yeah,

818
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: and Forward Thinking, we talked about cameras and yeah. It

819
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: was one of those things where where the more you

820
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: talked about it, the more the more like unsure I

821
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: was that I was reflecting reality because it seems so weird.

822
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: It seems very very strange. So it's a person composed

823
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: of two genetically distinct types of cells. So you might have, um,

824
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: I think the first time I was discovered it was

825
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: related to blood type, right, yeah, I believe, So I

826
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: believe you're correct. So somebody had more than one blood type,

827
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: which is already so trippy to me. I just felt

828
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: like to do the to do just to this topic,

829
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: we would have to mention that that is one of

830
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: those very very exceedingly rare cases where DNA testing is

831
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: not again a silver bullet. Yeah, so you could in

832
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: a bizarre like this is almost like a science fiction novel. Yeah,

833
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 1: Like to the point where you're like, for this to work,

834
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: so many things would have to fall in line perfectly

835
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: that you might as well say it's impossible. But imagine

836
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 1: that you have a scenario in which you have a

837
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: chimera and DNA is left behind at the scene, but

838
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: it's only one type of DNA somehow, and then the

839
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: sample they get is somehow just the other type of DNA,

840
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: thus exonerating your your perpetrator um practically. Yeah, there's no,

841
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: it's impossible. The only way that that could really affect

842
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: it is if there were somehow a chimera on the

843
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 1: involved in this scene and it became a contaminating factors,

844
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: then they would say, well, aside from the victim, it

845
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: seems it appears that there were three people here. Yes,

846
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 1: that that would certainly, that would certainly cause problems, right,

847
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: that would certainly cause confusion in the whole process. But

848
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 1: it's also so rare for someone to be a criminal.

849
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: I think it's already yeah, begging beggaring belief right right,

850
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: like like like you you already have. Like if you

851
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: think of the population of people who have some form

852
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: of of that, you know, the chimera DNA thing going on,

853
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: and then within that population, what percentage of those people

854
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: are our master yeah, are are committing these sort of crimes.

855
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: It's got to be pretty pretty small number. Sorry, man,

856
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just had to bring it up. No, No,

857
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: it's fine, like you know, it's it's you know, but

858
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: what if so one other thing I wanted to talk about.

859
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: I almost forgot about this. So did you read up

860
00:51:54,600 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: about the um the technology of reconstructing a person's face

861
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: using just DNA material, and you, like you you had

862
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: sent that to me off there, And I was initially

863
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: skeptical when I was looking at it, but I'm out.

864
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: It's it's called Snapshot, and it's from a company called

865
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: Parabond and Snapshot what it's what it attempts to do

866
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: is take the information from a DNA sample and create

867
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: a essentially a police sketch of a person, a three

868
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: dimensional uh representation of what a person might look like. Now,

869
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: when I say might look like, you've got to be

870
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: super generous with this because if all you have is

871
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: the DNA, if that's all you have, like you don't

872
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: have any any knowledge of what the person's face looks like,

873
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: otherwise how old they are, they're height, or anything. What

874
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: you'll be able to do is probably approximate their skin tone,

875
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: their ethnicity, their gender, at least their biological gender there,

876
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: they're hair color, their eye color, that kind of stuff,

877
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: whether or not they have freckles, that kind of thing.

878
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: But beyond that, you're not gonna be able to tell

879
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 1: their age. You're not gonna tell their higher weight, So

880
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: you can't you can't tell how heavy said or thin

881
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: they may be. How you don't know how much how

882
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: much like what sort of wrinkles would you need to

883
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,919
Speaker 1: add in if they're you know, if they're older. Yeah,

884
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know any of that. Uh, And you wouldn't

885
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 1: know their skull shape, Like you wouldn't know their face shape, right,

886
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: like the DNA wouldn't. So, so what you can do

887
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: is create like a very generic looking person but with

888
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: those traits. So it may not be so useful in

889
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,919
Speaker 1: the sense of using this as a means of trying

890
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: to track down the suspect there may not come in handy.

891
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 1: Where it might help is if you have unidentified remains.

892
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,760
Speaker 1: So let's say you've found the remains of a person

893
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: and you're able to extract some DNA information, but you're

894
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: not able to ascertain the identity of this this person. Uh.

895
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: This would allow you once if you have the person's

896
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 1: like skull, like if if that's part of the remains

897
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 1: that are left behind, you then know at least the

898
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: dimensions of the skull. And there are also other technologies

899
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: that allow people to approximate lot of person's face looks

900
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 1: like based upon their skull shape. So combining those two

901
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: where you you say, all right, this is what they're

902
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: they probably look like based upon the the shape of

903
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: their skull. Plus here are their characteristics that they had

904
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: according to their d n A, then you might be

905
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: able to create a few different looks for that particular

906
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 1: individual that might help in identifying who that person was. Yeah,

907
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: and that that I think is the most tremendous possibility

908
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: of this technology, absolutely right, because we're seeing already that

909
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: the study of d n A and and the application

910
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 1: of this sort of science has fundamentally changed the nature

911
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: of crime and investor negation. Yeah, to the point where

912
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: again it can affect juries, uh and there and their

913
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: perception of a case to the So so it can

914
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: be a frustration, right, like if you have if you

915
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: have other lines of evidence that clearly indicate that the

916
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: person accused of the crime has committed it, but because

917
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: there was there was no DNA evidence, or maybe there

918
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: was some problem with the chain of custody, that can

919
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,439
Speaker 1: create enough doubt in a jury's mind, a jury that's

920
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: been conditioned to believe the DNA evidence is the end

921
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 1: all be all that it can it can cause problems

922
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: in that case. This is this is the thing, is

923
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: that human beings were messy, right, Like we're not just

924
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: messy and that we leave DNA behind. We're messy in

925
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: the way we try to process information. And so sometimes

926
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: you know, when you go through an entire process of

927
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: when a crime is committed, to figuring out who potentially

928
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 1: did it, to apprehend that person, to then trying that

929
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 1: person for the crime, to then deciding whether or not

930
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: they're guilty. I mean, there's so much stuff going on

931
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: through that whole process. I hope you enjoyed that classic

932
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: episode with Ben Bolan guest hosting. Was a lot of fun.

933
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: Having him on always is fun. Occasionally you might hear

934
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 1: me pop on his show Ridiculous History as a character

935
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: called the Quister, where I am even more obnoxious than

936
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: I am on this show. And I know that's hard

937
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: to believe, but it is true. If you would like

938
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: to reach out with suggestions for topics I should cover

939
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: on future episodes of Tech Stuff, there are a couple

940
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 1: of different ways of doing that one is to download

941
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, navigate over to the text

942
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: Stuff page, use little microphone icon, record a message up

943
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: to thirty seconds in length letting me know what you

944
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 1: would like me to cover, or you can reach out

945
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: on Twitter. The handle for the show is text Stuff

946
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: H s W and I'll talk to you again really soon.

947
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: Text Stuff is an I heart Radio production. For more

948
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

949
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.