1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hi, This is newt Twenty twenty is going to be 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: I want to invite you to join my Inner Circle 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: as we discuss each twist and turn in the presidential race. 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: In my members only Inner Circle Club, you'll receive special 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: flash briefings, online events, and members only audio reports from 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: me and my team. Here is a special offer for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. 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Join My Inner Circle today at Newtcenter 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Circle dot com slash podcast use the Code podcast at checkout. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: Sign up today at Newtcenter Circle dot com slash podcast 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway Spires, February fourteenth, 16 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World this Easter Sunday, I 17 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: really want to introduce you to somebody that Callista and 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: I have grown to love and who we just think 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: as a remarkable person, Joan Lewis. I think you're going 20 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: to find her fascinating. She was born and raised in 21 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: the United States, she attended Saint Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana. 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: Then she taught French for five years in the United States, 23 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: but that wasn't her future, so she moved to Rome 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: and she began her career as a journalist. In nineteen 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: ninety she was invited to work for the newly created 26 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: Vatican Information Service and the Holy See Press Office as 27 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: the English language writer and editor. Then, after representing the 28 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: Holy See at many United Nations conferences, she moved to ETN. 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: Since two thousand and five, she has served as ewtn's 30 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: Rome Bureau Chief. Through her many years, she's been in 31 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: the company of five popes. She's personally met four of them. 32 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: Since we've gotten to know each other, I can tell 33 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: you there's no one more unique, more engaging, and frankly 34 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: a little bit wacky than Joan Lewis. She's devoutly Catholic. 35 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: She knows everyone in Rome. I am pleased to welcome 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: her as my guest. John, would you just share with 37 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: our listeners your story of baking cookies for the Pope? Well, 38 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: one day I was reading a story about this amazing 39 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: pontiff from Poland, John Paul, Saint John Paul's we know 40 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: him today, And it was a story not about his 41 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: travels or his speeches, hamilies, anything else. It was a 42 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: story about John Paul the man and how he lived 43 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: his daily life, what his favorite foods, And in that 44 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: sentence about his favorite foods, we had Pope John Paul 45 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: Love's chocolate. And of course I'm an alcoholic. So the 46 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: first thing I thought of was I had made cookies 47 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: for a lot of people in the Vatican. And the 48 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: first thing I thought of was, well, why wouldn't the 49 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: Pope perhaps like some cookies, maybe even brownies? So I 50 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: made a couple dozen brownies and maybe three or four 51 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: dozen cookies for the whole staff of the papal household, 52 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: and I bought a beautiful box to put them all in, 53 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: and called his secretary, whom I knew, and said, my 54 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: Senior Stanislaw, I have something for the Holy Father, and 55 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: I think you'll like it too, but I want to 56 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: give it to you in person. Well, could I come 57 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: over at five thirty? And so I brought the box 58 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: of brownies and cookies over at five thirty. And that 59 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: turned out to be the first of many times that 60 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: I made cookies for ap and I got a thank 61 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: you note or a phone call from Monsignor stan now 62 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: Cardinal Stanislaus Hivits every single time I baked cookies. And 63 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: sometimes he'd see me in person, we'd meet somewhere in 64 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: the Vatican. He'd say, I did tell you how much 65 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: the Pope likes ship cookies the last time you baked them, right, 66 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: So that was the beginning, And why shouldn't there be 67 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: a second time, in a fifth time, in a tenth time. 68 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: So that's my story. What I think is intriguing about 69 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: your life is the Vatican, on the one hand, is 70 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: the center of a religion with a billion, three hundred 71 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: million people. And on the other hand, it's a really 72 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: tiny town. I think, what a quarter square mile total. 73 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: Yet inside this little town there are all sorts of 74 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: personalities and people who relate to each other primarily as people, 75 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: in a way that I think sometimes folks might not appreciate. 76 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: And you've done this amazing job of wandering through here 77 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: for years and getting to know people been with you, 78 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: and cardinals and others will wander up to you and 79 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: as with you. As you remember Saint Patrick's in New York, 80 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: when Cardinal Dolan was reminiscing about what he used to 81 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: be here at the North American College, and as he 82 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: put it, you were making lemon cello in your bathtub, 83 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: So you know, I mean, there's things where that are 84 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: so human. And I would like, if you don't want, 85 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: I want to go back and begin at the beginning, 86 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: because I'm a historian by training. How did you get 87 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: interested in Rome and in the Vatican. I mean, tell 88 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: us about your early life, which I think was what 89 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: in Chicago, in Chicago suburb a Park, Illinois. That's where 90 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: I grew up, and I attended high school in River Forest. 91 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: Saint Mary's of Notre Dame was my university, and then 92 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: my third year of university, I was majoring in French 93 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: and minoring in political science. And my third year in 94 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: college was spent in Switzerland. And in our academic year 95 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: we had many, many weeks of travel. We had a 96 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: six week spring vacation, three in Ely, three in France. 97 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: And I want to tell you I just crossed the 98 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: border from Switzerland into Italy and my life changed. I 99 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: don't know if it was something in the air. I 100 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: don't know if it was the Parmesan cheese that I 101 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: put on everything but dessert. It was the music, the people, 102 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: their love of life. They were my people. I just 103 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: fell in love with Italians, fell in love with Italy. 104 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: And I remember standing by a fountain in Rome with 105 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 1: three of my college friends and I said, I'm coming 106 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: back here some day to Rome. I'm going to live 107 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: here and work here and die here. It took a 108 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: while to make that happen because I did not go 109 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: to college in the age of internet. There was no internet. 110 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: You had to write real letters, you had to write 111 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: everything by hand. But it took a few years, made 112 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: a few acquaintances, and then it ended up that actually 113 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: my college had a program in Rome. They opened a 114 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: program in Rome. They had an opening from one year, 115 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: and I knew if I could get my foot in 116 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: the door for one year, then I could open a 117 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: lot of other doors. And that's exactly what happened. I 118 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: worked for Saint Mary's on their Rome program, met many 119 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: other people, some of whom were Vatican people, priests whose 120 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: theses I ended up typing, and then through them I 121 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: met many other people at the Vatican. I didn't work 122 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: in the Vatican in the first years I was in Rome, 123 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: but I eventually, while had been in the return to 124 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: the States, briefly, came to Rome on a vacation and 125 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: was offered a job at a new office in the 126 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: Holy See Press Office. It's called the Vatican Information Service. 127 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: John Paul set it up in eighty nine and it 128 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: really opened and functioned in nineteen ninety. I was asked 129 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: to work for that office. So that was the beginning 130 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: of my Vatican career. Let me take you all the 131 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: way back from it. So you come here as a 132 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: young lady and still in college. You look around, you've 133 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: fallen over with Rome and with the Italy. You show 134 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: up to teach at your formal mater, and what are 135 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 1: you teaching? The good point. I was asked to work 136 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: in the main office of our campus here in Rome, 137 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: and also to liaise with the students because of my 138 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: knowledge of Italian, which was not as good then as 139 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: it is now many years later. I was asked to 140 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: liaise with the students for any single need that they had, 141 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: any problems they had, and that could have been bringing 142 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: them to a doctor's office because they had the flu 143 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: or something. But in the meantime I was in realm, 144 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: learning a lot about realme, learning the language. I knew 145 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: I only had a year. I had to make something 146 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: happen at the end of that year and move on, 147 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: and that's what I did. Nowadays, you have this marvelous apartment. 148 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: Where were you staying when you first got here? I mean, 149 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: you're arrived in Rome and you're looking around as a 150 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: young American and dreaming. Of course, people were surprised when 151 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: I said, my dad gave us our PhD. And you 152 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: asked me what I was. I said, it's passion, hard work, 153 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: and dreams. The passion and the hard work, I guess 154 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: got me to Rome, and then I was dreaming what 155 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: am I going to do? What kind of a contribution 156 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: can I make? I never knew i'd be where I 157 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: am now, or the years at the Vatican, but in 158 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: any event, my dream, obviously was to have a beautiful 159 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: place to live. In answer to your question, I started 160 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: out by living in the hotel. All the students we 161 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: lived in a hotel. Now, at the end of a year, 162 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: I had some savings, so it was like, your first 163 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: department's going to be small, because my savings were small. 164 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: The apartment I live in now overlooks the dome of 165 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: Saint Peter's and it's stunning. It's in a building that 166 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: is owned by the Vatican. The Vatican was given a 167 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: lot of property in Rome many many years ago nineteen 168 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: twenty nine, when the Vatican was compensated for all the 169 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: property that had been taken by the Italian government to 170 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: form what today we know as the country of Italy. 171 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: And so the Catholic Church was given land and buildings, 172 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: they were given money, and they were also what we 173 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: know today as Vatican City. State was created on February eleventh, 174 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine. I knew that as a Vatican employee, 175 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: I would have the right to an apartment in a 176 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: Vatican owned building, and took me a lot of years 177 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: to make that happen. But my last trip to the 178 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: real estate office, I told them on Senior, who was 179 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: there at the time, I said, I'm going to be 180 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: just like the widow in Luke eighteen who insisted did 181 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: she get what is due her from the judge. I 182 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: can see you looking at this poor guy and him 183 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: starting them helt, well, you know, my dad told us 184 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: never to be backward about coming forward. And that was 185 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: one of those occasions when I just I had waited 186 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: so long to make this happen working at the Vatican, 187 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, you know, in July of 188 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, it happened. Clifts and I are 189 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: still overwhelmed. Every time we drive by the Adela Conciliati onim, 190 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: we look down that great street and see Saint Peter's. 191 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: What is it like to wake up every morning with 192 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: Saint Peter's in your window? I have to be honest 193 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: and not only wake up in the morning, but going 194 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: to bed at night. I never take it for granted. 195 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: I'm overwhelmed by the privileges that I have had in 196 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: covering the church and working for the church, getting to 197 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: know you know, we could fill an entire show just 198 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: with names of people and events. But I never take 199 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: it for granted. I look out at the Dome and 200 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: I see my faith, I see the church. I do 201 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: see Saint Peter when I walk by it. I've walked 202 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: by it, can I say thousands of times? I probably sure, 203 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: I probably can for sure. So to wake up to 204 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:02,239 Speaker 1: that and to go to bed with that, I'm thankful, grateful, delighted, surprised. 205 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: I never cease being surprised at things. That's one quality 206 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: I think that can bring you through life, many many 207 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: moments of life. Well, it's part of what makes Joan's 208 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: Rome and your reports and everything you do. You're always 209 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: sharing with the rest of us your newest discovery, and 210 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: you every week have discoveries. I'm Joan Lewis and this 211 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: is Rome Dispatch. Welcome back to Rome Dispatch. It's been 212 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: a while since we've been in touch. But if there's 213 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: a big event in Rome, EWTN and yours truly are 214 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: going to bring it to you. And of course we're 215 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: coming from Rome because of the big canonization on Sunday, 216 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: the canonization of two saints. So the church has two saints, 217 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: two new saints. And by the way, eighty popes before today, 218 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: before Sunday's canonization, have been canonized. So with John the 219 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: twenty third and John Paul the second, we will have 220 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: eighty two popes who will have been canonized in the 221 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: history of the Church. So I don't think you've ever 222 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: gotten board. Oh no, that is not a word in 223 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: my vocabulary. Retalians. They say, have you ever thought of retiring? 224 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: And I said no, I said in English, there's two 225 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: meanings to the word retire. One is to leave your 226 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: job to definitively start a new life. The other is 227 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: go to bed. I think I'll retire for the night, 228 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: and that's me. That's my retire, retire for the night exactly. 229 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: One of the things you surprised me that after I 230 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: had known you for years, was that your first pope 231 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: is I think a polaroid picture that you took when 232 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: you were in college share with all of us, because 233 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: it's a very important pope who's often I think neglected now. 234 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: So John the twenty third was the first pope I 235 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: ever met. March of nineteen sixty one, and at that 236 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: time there was no audience hall. It was the Hall 237 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: of Blessings, which is right where the five windows are 238 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: above say Peter's entrance, the atrium and the main logia 239 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: where the popes come out and speak a couple times 240 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: a year. Behind those windows is the beautiful hall, the 241 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: Hall of Blessings. There were just a couple hundred of us. 242 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: It was amazing. And when I brought my camera up, 243 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: some little brownie camera or something to take a picture. 244 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: In those days, you didn't know if your picture turned 245 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: out to you had it developed. So it was going 246 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: to be like when I got back to Switzerland, you know, 247 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: And here's this amazing picture of this little, rotund, happy 248 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: man sitting in a chair. That's when popes were carried 249 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: by the seediari, sitting in the chair, his arms out 250 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: like this, a big smile on his face. I showed 251 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: that to people, the press when he became a saint, 252 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: along with John Paul in twenty fourteen. In some ways 253 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: he's in the shadow of John Paul. A second, why, 254 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: in your judgment is he so important in the history 255 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: of the church. John twenty third seems to me is 256 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: the guy who really unleashes all the modernization that then 257 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: John Benedict really sort of the completion of a very 258 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: very long, almost forty year project. Well with John twenty 259 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: first of all, if you could get to know them, 260 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: and he was a farmer's son, he was the most 261 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: down to earth pope probably in the last century. Well 262 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: except i'd put John Paul actually in that same category. 263 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: But John the twenty third, as we know, he was 264 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: a diplomat. He was in many countries. He was a 265 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: diplomat for the Vatican in Paris, he was in Turkey. 266 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: He made friends wherever he went because he was interested 267 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: not only in the president of a country. He was 268 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: interested in the guy who did the gardening in the 269 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: house where he lived. He was very, very human with 270 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: this experience. He just had such a broad sense of 271 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: humanity of people and of very good sense of the church, 272 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: and he knew some things had to change. So without 273 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: going into all the specifics, we know that he opened 274 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: the doors for Vaticant Council too, and it was of 275 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: course Paul the six who closed the door. So I 276 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: also did meet. So I've actually been in the presence 277 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: of five popes and spoken to four, which is rather wonderful. 278 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: But John was in many many ways bigger than life. 279 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: And of course I hope that people know that if 280 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: they go into Saint Peter's Basilica, his incorrupt body is 281 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: below an altar, just off the right hand side, maybe 282 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: two thirds the way up the basilica, towards the main altar. 283 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: But he had a special love for children. He loved families. 284 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: This is where I see a parallel between John the 285 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: twenty third and John Paul. And by the way John 286 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: Paul took his name, he why did he have a 287 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: double name. He wanted to be for the church, for 288 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: the world. What John was in his own personal and 289 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: even historical way. And also what Paul, John's successor was. 290 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: He was a very different type of person, much more 291 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: of a studious, erudite person that people didn't feel they 292 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: could approach him as easily as they could a John. 293 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: But both men had enormous contributions, and that's why John 294 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: Paul took the double name, because he wanted to reflect 295 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: and be those same gifts to the church. You know 296 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: something I've never understood. If you can, you want to 297 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: correct me if I got this wrong, But if you 298 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: walk in the papal gardens, there's a tower up sort 299 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: of towards the top, and somebody was telling me that 300 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: later in his life, John Paul lived in that tower. 301 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: I believe the story is that he lived there while 302 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: work was being done on the paper apartments in the Vatican, 303 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: because actually the guest rooms in that tower at the 304 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: time were, or for many many years were four important guests, 305 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: usually church guests, so like you'd have the patriarch of 306 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: the Acumenical Patriarch Bartholomeo. I believe he has stayed there, 307 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: so he wasn't hiding it was this perspective, oh absolutely, 308 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: But he was a pope who would go out of 309 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: the Vatican at night. He would just have his little 310 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: black priest vestments on. He'd go outside of Vatican City 311 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: because he knew Rome before he was pope, and he 312 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: could just walk about. That's what I know, Pope Francis 313 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: missus being able to walk about the city. But John 314 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: would go out and maybe if somebody said to come 315 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: into his home, sometimes they didn't recognize him right away. 316 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: So you could be sitting on Italian you could, yeah, 317 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: having a glass of wine, and here comes the pope walking. 318 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: Has anybody ever told you you look like John the 319 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: twenty third, you know? And so he also had a 320 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: great habit of when he would go out in a 321 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: car if he ever drove by himself, had a great 322 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: habit of locking the key inside the car when he 323 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: would close the door. And there was actually a key smith. 324 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: I interviewed this person for an article years ago because 325 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: I love the human side. There was actual a person 326 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: who had a key in making place not too far 327 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: from the Vatican. He became the keymaker and opener of 328 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: car doors for from Yeah exactly I want know, is 329 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: he the last one who didn't automatically have security and drivers? 330 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: And I mean now it is. It's a little hard 331 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: to imagine a wandering off on his own, leaving locking 332 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: his key in his car. Right, he did have security 333 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: in those days. That would always have been security. But 334 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: I don't think like today. When you think of the 335 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: threats that the world, that individuals, that the church, etc. 336 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: Face Today, you just have to in the face of 337 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: someone like a popera president, you just have to have 338 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: the proper securities. And that'll mean numerous people around when 339 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: we come back, Joan and I talk about the beauty 340 00:19:53,240 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: and pace of life in Rome. You know, you talked 341 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: a little bit about the first time you crossed the 342 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: border from Switzerland and just the sense of it which 343 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: clisson I've had. And I told my granddaughter that Americans 344 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: lived to work and Italians work to live, and that 345 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: there's there's something about Rome, but all of Italy. I 346 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: think that is so magically different. Well, the Vatican in 347 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: that sense, is very Italian. How would you try to 348 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: communicate the rhythm of being at the Vatican and what 349 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: it's like and just the relationships and the way people interact. 350 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: As an American when I first came here, when I 351 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: saw the pace, the very slow pace of how things 352 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: were done. You've just wanted to get things done. Come on, guys, 353 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: we can at the sun by three o'clock today. It 354 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: doesn't have to go over till tomorrow morning. I was 355 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: fortunate to work in an office for the Vatican which 356 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: we had a schedule to keep up. Our job was 357 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: to transmit a summary every single day of the Pope's 358 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: speeches in four language speech homilies, events at the Vatican 359 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: press conferences, and we had to get that out there 360 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: for the press by about one fifteen or one thirty 361 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: two o'clock. So we were on a schedule that was 362 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: much much more American. Here you start, now, here's your deadline. 363 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: It has to be out by that hour. I liked 364 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: that as an American, but sometimes persuading other offices in 365 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: the Curia to get their information to you let us 366 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 1: know if Cardinal so and so is going on a 367 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: trip to wherever, so that we can put that in 368 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: our news article so people can see the Universal Church 369 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: at work. Persuading other offices to do that. My boss 370 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: and I actually visited when the Vatican Information Service was 371 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: set up. We went around to visit every single cardinal 372 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: that ran an office in the Vatican to let them 373 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: know that Vatican Information Service was a new service, a 374 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: Vatican wire service. But we were on their side. We 375 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: were not an outsider looking in. We were part of 376 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: the Vatican, and bit by bit, yes, they began to 377 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: trust us more. We're not out there to denigrate any office, 378 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: but rather to build up an office to get the 379 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: Vatican's story out. And what I loved were actually were 380 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: the moments when there weren't a lot of papal events 381 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: or speeches, such as times when the Pope would go 382 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: away for vacation to Caste Gandolpho for long periods. And 383 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: then I loved to be able to do stories about 384 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: Caste Gandolpho, do something about the history and the gardens 385 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: and the farm that's out there, do the history of 386 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: all the different offices in the Vatican, some of which 387 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: go back to the fourteen or fifteen hundreds. Vatican diplomacy 388 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: goes back to the four hundreds, were the oldest diplomatic 389 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: corps on earth. Chlis and I were just up at 390 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 1: Kestel Gandolfo the other day. It's about forty five minutes 391 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: away from Rome. It's up on a little volcanic mountaintop. 392 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: It is part of the original agreement in nineteen twenty 393 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 1: nine and the latter and records, so it's extra territory. 394 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: It's actually the Vatican, not Italy. It's a palace because 395 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: the current pope doesn't like going down there. It's become 396 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: an amazing museum. They have the tape recordings. I went 397 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,239 Speaker 1: through as a somebody who used to study history. I mean, 398 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: I found myself just overwhelmed with the stories and the 399 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: one pope who took I think it was two hundred 400 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: and seventy five votes to be chosen in the conflict, 401 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: and then the other thing. I didn't know that. Of 402 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: course you did know. But when they talk about the 403 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: papal gardens at Gandolfo Castel Gandolfo, I'd always thought it 404 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: was this little small area next to the palace. It's 405 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: actually the garden is larger than the Vatican. Then it's amazing. 406 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: And they have a farm. They produce milk and eggs 407 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: with the pope, and they make their own yogurt and butter, 408 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: and that's brought in. Can you buy it at the Yes, 409 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: the grocery store here. I often buy their milk and 410 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: often buy their yogurt, so that comes in at six 411 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: o'clock in the mornings. I'm not sure about Pope Francis, 412 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: but I know as predecessors things were brought right to 413 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: their kitchens in the Apostolic Palace, so that if benedictor 414 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: John Paul wanted strawberry yogurt for lunch, they had it 415 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: from Castel Gandolpho. Costa Gandolpho's about that's fifty five hectors, 416 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: and this Vatican City state, which we're close to right now, 417 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: is forty four. It's the size of an average eighteen 418 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: hole golf course one hundred and eight point seven acres. Yeah, 419 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: it's remarkable. So and there's also, as I understand, there's 420 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: a train that you can take at the Vatican. Is 421 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 1: it on Saturday on Saturdays only, right, So you can 422 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: actually get on the train exactly and ride down to 423 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: Castel Gandolfo and then come back up to the Vatican. 424 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: For anybody who signs up for the full trip, you 425 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: begin at the Vatican Museums. You have an hour and 426 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: a half there, then you're brought to the town of 427 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: Kasta gandolph and then smaller busses bring you up to 428 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: the Palace. The Vatican was historically a very very male 429 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: maybe the most male dominated as any place on the planet. 430 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: You were a genuine pioneer. What's it been like all 431 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: these years to gradually become as nowadays? You're totally accepted 432 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: by the hierarchy and people. Surely everybody knows you. People 433 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: always asked me in the early days if anything was 434 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: special about being a woman or was it? Usually they asked, 435 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: was it more difficult to be a woman? And I said, 436 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: I didn't feel that anyway. I don't know. I guess 437 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: I've always approached the priests, the bishops, the cardinals that 438 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 1: we had to deal with in my work when I 439 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: worked at the Vatican, and then afterwards, I just approached 440 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: them as fellow human beings. And I've brought flowers to 441 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: cardinals who were sick. I'll bake cookies for different offices 442 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: of the Roman Curia. So I've just tried to be me. 443 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: I would treat a cardinal with due respect for the office. 444 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: That goes without saying, but why couldn't I also see 445 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: him as a friend. And once they knew that you 446 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: saw them as a friend or a human being, things 447 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: were fine. I never, ever, for one moment, felt that 448 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: being a woman was a challenge or difficult, or that 449 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: I was treated differently. The other unusual story was the 450 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: painting in the bathroom. And you told me the story 451 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: one time about being at a cardinal's office and what 452 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: you what happened in terms of just the random art 453 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: that's all over the Vatican. I went to interview he's 454 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: now Cardinal Sandri his offices in the Apostolic Palace. And 455 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: while I was waiting for him to come, I was 456 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: with a journalist colleague. While I was waiting for him 457 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: to come out of the office, we were in a 458 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: small room. Everywhere you look, I mean from the ceiling 459 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: on down. Literally in these rooms there's history, there's art, 460 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: amazing art objects. And I saw a teensy small window, 461 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: probably only two feet high and one foot across, and 462 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: I went over to see what I could see through 463 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: that window. Where was I in Vatican City state? And 464 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: I looked out the window. I turned around to come back, 465 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: and I saw breathtaking mosaics a very small room. I 466 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: literally could have held my arms out and touched the 467 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: right and the left hand walls. I asked my colleague, 468 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: I said, oh, you have to come and see this. 469 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: This is magnificent. He said, no, no, no, you know 470 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: what if the archbishop balks in? I said, well, so 471 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: a few minutes later, the archbishop comes in and we 472 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: have our interview much much longer than expected. At the end, 473 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: I asked him, and I don't know why, but I 474 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: switched to Italian. I said, your excellency, what is that 475 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: beautiful little room a few feet down here? And he 476 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: took my arm and he smiled, and he said, that's 477 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: the best question you've asked today. And it turned out 478 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: to be what used to be a papal bathroom. It 479 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: was the room painted by Raphael, and so I'm look. 480 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: The only thing that it was any sign it was 481 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: the bathroom was the tube coming out of the wall 482 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: that where water would have come out. I had the 483 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: same experience when we were visiting. I think it was 484 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: the Secretary of State for Foreign Relations or State relations. 485 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: That entire corridor the ceiling has been was painted by Raphael, 486 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: and I have this image that it was a slow 487 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: summer and he said to the Pope, you know I 488 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: could use some work in. The Pope said, well, we 489 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 1: got the ceiling, yeah, but I mean, don't you one 490 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: year as you walk around here when you take the 491 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: Vatican Museum itself is enormous, but when you take all 492 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: of the art in Vatican City, it has to be 493 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: the largest art collection in the world. It's breathtaking. I 494 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: have to say, whenever I'm in the museums or the 495 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: Apostolic Palace, I am in awe of the art of 496 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: the men, many of whom fantastic artists. They are mere 497 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: pupils of a Michelangelo or a Raphael. I mean, you 498 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: go into the Borgia rooms and the fact that hundreds 499 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: of years later you are still looking at this amazing art. 500 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: It never ceases to overwhelm me, just the sheer quantity 501 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: of it. And I know people have said, well, you know, 502 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: the pope talks about feeding the poor, why don't you 503 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 1: sell the art. The Vatican doesn't consider the art there's 504 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: to own. They consider themselves as guardians of art that 505 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: has been given, who was done by popes or given 506 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: to popes over the years. And I know, one important 507 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: thing to know about the Vatican Museums is that there's 508 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: a group called the Patrons of the Vatican Museums, and 509 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: that came about through an American diplomat, the first American 510 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: Ambassador to the Holy See, William Wilson, and in nineteen 511 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: eighty four he was named ambassador. Shortly after that or 512 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: about that same time, he was going through the museums 513 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: and he asked the director, now, how do you raise 514 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: money to buy art or to refurbish art, restore a tapestry? 515 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: And the director said, I think it was Walter Persecati, 516 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,479 Speaker 1: and he said, at the time, we can't spend money 517 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: buying art or refurbishing, not when there's hunger in the world, 518 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: not when there's people out there who need money for 519 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: humanitarian reasons. So he said, we have to rely on donations. 520 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: Someone wants to give us a painting, money to restore something. 521 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: And that's how Bill Wilson thought of bringing about this group, 522 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: the patrons of the Vatican Museums, just so that the 523 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: Church does not have to spend because it doesn't want 524 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: to spend money buying art. Now, if they need to 525 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: acquire art or repair something, restore something, the money is 526 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: there through the patrons. So I always think that's an 527 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: important thing for people to know about the art in 528 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: the Vatican because, as you know, there's so much of it. 529 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: The Gallery of Maps, the beautiful ceilings. Anyone who comes 530 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: to Rome, if they can spare the time, you can 531 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: easily spend a day or more. It is such an 532 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: extraordinary museum, and it's so much of it is history 533 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: in its own right. So it's not just it's not 534 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: only going to the Metropolitan Museum or the Louver, which 535 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: are great, great museums, but this actually is the living 536 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: history where the people who Michelangelo was working here. Michelangelo 537 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: designed the dome of Saint Peter's and one of the 538 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: four hundred things he did in his life. So you're 539 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: actually in the middle of the production of the art 540 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: that you're also witnessing. There's a historic context here that 541 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: you don't get, I think in any other museum in 542 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: the world. And Paul the six was the great pope 543 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: for adding to the art. He felt that there was 544 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: not a very good modern art section, and he did 545 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: love modern art, and he collected two things for the museums. 546 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: He got people to donate certain pieces of what we 547 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: would call modern art. He also had a huge autograph collection. 548 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: He kept letters from heads of state and if he 549 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: could find out who's autograph am I missing? So he 550 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: had a great autograph collection. There was once an exhibit, 551 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: oh probably twenty years ago in the Vatican and Paul's 552 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: art collection. So you know, you remind me in terms 553 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: of the sort of historic depth here one of the 554 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: things that is limited in the number of people per 555 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: day they can do it, but it is called the 556 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: Scavi tour. Oh yeah, and can you just share it 557 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: in terms of giving you a feeling for why Saint 558 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: Peter's matters and why it's historically so central to the 559 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: practice of Christianity. The Scavy Tour, it seems to me, 560 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: is one of the things that just a must blows 561 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: your mind. Must scavy, of course from the Italian word 562 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: for excavations. And in nineteen forty nine, when they were 563 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: actually excavating under Saint Peter's to create a foundation for 564 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: a tomb of I think it was Bias the eleventh 565 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: a worker fell through a certain area, ended up in 566 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: what we would call catacombs, that's the word probably most 567 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: people would know better. And he finds this underground burial area, 568 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: and after quite a bit of research, they actually came 569 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: across the tomb that they knew had to be Saint Peter's, 570 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: which we do now know from many many tests, was 571 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: where Saint Peter was buried. And the fascinating thing is 572 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: if you were to take a plumb line from the 573 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,479 Speaker 1: center of the dome, it goes right through the center 574 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: of the main altar, right through the floor of the 575 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: basilica down into the scavi, right where the tomb of 576 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: Saint Peter is. So that the Scavi tour lasts about 577 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. You have docents taking you 578 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: through this Preconstantine necropolis. You're speechless all the time because 579 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: of the history. You're going back two thousand years, You're 580 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: going back to the first Pope Peter, and then all 581 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: the other graves. Whatever's written on the graves or the 582 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: little monuments is explained by the wonderful people who take 583 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: you through the Scavi. It is about The only thing 584 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: is groups are small. It's only like ten to twelve 585 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: max fifteen people in a group, just because the spaces 586 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: are so small. There's also a challenge that too many 587 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: people bring too much carbon dioxide in and that it 588 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: changes the composition and risks are messing up the bones 589 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: as you're actually looking at real cemetery as it does, 590 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean even in the museums, which is why they 591 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: have such an amazing air conditioning and air freshening system, 592 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: a lighting system, etc. But the SCAVI, I don't know 593 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: how many groups they bring in a day, not really 594 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 1: that many groups. And as I said, they're only twelve 595 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: or fifteen. They don't allow anyone under the age of twelve, 596 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. But it's definitely worth it for 597 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: an awesome sense of history. I talk to people occasionally 598 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: who if you're at all claustrophobic, I mean, you're really 599 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: underground and you're really in in the middle of all 600 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: of these cemeteries, and it's quite I mean, and they're very, 601 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: very narrow passageways and everything. Yeah, but I found myself 602 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 1: as a historian and as a Christian when you finally 603 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: end up at the center and you have the guide 604 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 1: saying to you, based on every all the data we have, 605 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: sometime around sixty eight, this is where they buried Peter. Yeah, 606 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: and that's why this whole thing, this entire complex, basically 607 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: circles around his grave and you're looking at two thousand 608 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: years of history. To me, it's just astonishing. Well, the 609 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: original Saint Peter's Basilica was built over the grave. That 610 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 1: was the whole idea, and that was inaugurated in three 611 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: twenty six. Many years later that was raised to the 612 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: ground for the new current Basilica, which we see. That's 613 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: when so much of what we call the scavi today 614 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: was just raised right over and they had ground fill. 615 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: So what you would and I are walking in today 616 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: for many many years was just covered with ground pill 617 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: when they came in and put all that ground in 618 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: there as a foundation for the new Basilica, which is 619 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: dedicated by the way, on the same day in the 620 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: year sixteen twenty six, three twenty six to sixteen twenty six. 621 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: I'm a very, very big fan of michael Angelo, just 622 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 1: because of the length of his life in the range 623 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: and the notion that when you first walk into Saint 624 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: Peter's over on the right is this magnificent Pieta of 625 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: Mary holding Christ in white marble, which he did as 626 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: a very young man, and it's an astonishing piece of sculptor. 627 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: And then you keep walking in and you look up 628 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: and here's the dome, which he did. I think he's 629 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: eighty three. Then they call him and they say, we 630 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: had this problem. We can't quite figure the dome out. 631 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: It's really big. And he said well, I'll do it 632 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: and passing. So you look at his entire lifetime, but 633 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: the sixteen Chapel in between, and you know, the Pietas 634 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: is one of only two works he signed his name. 635 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: He went to the Basilica one night, chartly after the 636 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: Pieta had been placed in the Basilica, not where it 637 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: is today, further up towards the main altar, and he 638 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: happened to be there as two cardinals were walking in 639 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: the Basilica and one of him looked at the statue. You, 640 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: I've never seen this before. I wonder who did it? Well, 641 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: Michael Angelo was what do you mean you wonder who 642 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: did it? Yeah? Right, And so when they left, he 643 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: went and he sculpted his name on the band of 644 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: material that goes across Mary's dress. And the only other 645 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: piece that he signed was Moses. He sculpted his own 646 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: image into Moses's huge beard that's in the Church of 647 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: Saint Peterson Chains. So the two signed works by Michael 648 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: Angelo's wild. Yeah, but it's but again, it's part of 649 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: what I find about Rome. You know that you've got 650 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: and this is things a common in your good sense 651 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: many years ago and deciding to fall in love with Italy. 652 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: But you've got the church, You've got this extraordinary Renaissance 653 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: and all the different art that came out of that music, sculpture, paintings, architecture. 654 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: Then you have the Roman Empire. Then you have modern 655 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,800 Speaker 1: Italy exactly, and then you have a really nice little 656 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: restaurant with some wine and some plasta. I mean, all 657 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: of this comes together. Everything you could want in life 658 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: is right here, It really really is. Why don't we 659 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: come back. We'll talk about one of my favorite restaurants 660 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: in Rome, where I frequently run into jump Lavatorium. One 661 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: of the things I want you to talk about for 662 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: just a minute. For all of our friends who are listening, 663 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: I mean, somebody come to Rome. The most commonplace for 664 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: clost to me to find you is Lavatoria. You've got 665 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: to share Lavatoria. Lavatoria, as a matter of fact, as 666 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: we speak, is one hundred years old. They're celebrating their centenary, 667 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: opened in nineteen nineteen. The current owner, Claudio, started out 668 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: a number of years ago, twenty or so years ago 669 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: in the kitchen. One of his sons now is following 670 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: in his footsteps in the kitchen as a chef. But 671 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: what's wonderful Lavatoria is about two hundred yards off of 672 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: the left hand colonnade of Saint Peter's Square. It's not 673 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: the only restaurant in the area, but it surely is 674 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: the most popular. You have the Swiss guards go there. 675 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: So many people from the Roman Curia, people from the 676 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: North American College. I don't think I have ever had 677 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: a meal, lunch, or dinner without running into a friend 678 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: from the Vatican. I mean, clostener I are addicted to 679 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: their pizza. Yeah, oh yes, I've seen a few pictures 680 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: on your Facebook. I think you've been at the table 681 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: with us. Oh, I have to when we've you know, 682 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: had a little prosecco and a wonderful slice of pizza 683 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: or some other fabulous, fabulous pasta. But it's very inexpensive, 684 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: and so it's part of what makes Italy so interesting 685 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: that you can visit Saint Peter's walk a couple of 686 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: blocks and be at this really relaxed, pleasant and you 687 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: had very good restaurant. And this is the kind of 688 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: thing that Pope Francis missus he would love to be able, 689 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: as he did in Point of Sires, just to be 690 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: able to walk out and be with people, sit down 691 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: and you know, add a law victory and have a 692 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: have a pizza and just enjoy. He he's dying to 693 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: have pizza. I mean you can have it sent in, 694 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: but that's not the same thing. You know, why eat 695 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: in when you can go out to this colorful restaurant 696 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: in the summer, you sit outside and enjoy watching people 697 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 1: walk by. You've known and seen close up five different popes. 698 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: How do you compare them? Well, I think to be 699 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: precise in mentioning, by the way, the five popes are 700 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: John the twenty third, Paul the sixth, John Paul, Benedictine Francis. 701 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: Those are the five popes in whose presence I've been, 702 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: and it was the last four that I have had 703 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: the privilege of speaking to John Paul many many times. 704 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: But one thing about John the twenty third, when I 705 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: earlier mentioned that his incorrupt body is in an open 706 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: casket in Saint Peter's Basilica. By incorrupt, I mean this 707 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: is his body. He did not deteriorate into just a 708 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: skeleton form. So you're looking at a pope in this 709 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: crystal casket that looks like he's simply asleep. Bodies of people, anybody, 710 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: not just a pope. When they're going to be beatified, 711 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: the church asks that their bodies be the exhumed, and 712 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: in his case, of course, it was exhumed, but it 713 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,839 Speaker 1: was found to be incorrupt. That is to say, he 714 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: looked like he was just sleeping and a pope. Actually, 715 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: Cardinal Schivitz made an exception with John Paul. He did 716 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,959 Speaker 1: not want the tomb open of John Paul for beatification, 717 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: so it never was. But lots of interesting stories about 718 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: the popes. When you talk about the five popes, you 719 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: knew you got to John Paul second, but there was 720 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: a very brief John Paul in between just disappear, right, 721 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: can you dishart all unusual? Sure? What thirty days? I think? Right? 722 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: The reason I did not mention one pope, and that 723 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: was John Paul. We now call him John Paul the First. 724 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: But the pope who was elected after Paul the sixth 725 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: only was pope for a month, and he had been 726 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:55,800 Speaker 1: the cardinal Archbishop of Venice. But of Pope Luciani, and 727 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: the story I love about him is he was actually 728 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: signing a document, one of the few that he did 729 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: sign in the month that he was pope he died 730 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 1: in September nineteen seventy eight. Paul the sixth had died 731 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: in August of seventy eight. John Paul First died in September. 732 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: Then we had John Paul the Second elected October sixteenth 733 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy eight. But John Paul, whom we now 734 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 1: call the first, because there can't be a first unless 735 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: there's a second. He signed a document one day and 736 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: he wrote in Latin John Paul, and he put the 737 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: Roman numeral one. And the monsignor standing next to him said, 738 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: your holiness, you do not put a one before your name. 739 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: And he looked at him and he said, there will 740 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 1: be a John Paul two. That's probably the most one 741 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: of the most astonishing stories about John Paul one. So 742 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: you're like Pope Francis. In the beginning, people mistakenly wrote 743 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: Francis the first. He only becomes Francis the first if 744 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 1: there is a Francis the second. In talking about the 745 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: five popes, you asked me the difference between them John 746 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: twenty third. To me, he was like a grandfather. I 747 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: would love to have sat down next to him. I 748 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: knew some of the stories. I had read a few 749 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 1: things before we met him, and his great, great, great 750 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 1: sense of humor. The famous question, of course, when he 751 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: was asked walking through the Vatican gardens one day, he 752 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: was asked by his visitor and oh, no, your holiness, 753 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: how many people work at the Vatican? And he said, well, 754 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 1: about half. So that's probably one of John's most famous lines. 755 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 1: I always felt that I wanted to know him, and 756 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: I never got to. With Paul the six he came 757 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: across as a person you wanted to be, you felt 758 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: you should be more formal with. He just came across 759 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 1: as the intellect. And I understand personally that he was 760 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: a very, very warm person. He cared about the people 761 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: and their families, those who worked for him, and so forth. 762 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: With John Paul, I had so many more moments to 763 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: experience with him and Benedict. Fewer than John Paul, but 764 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: more than any other Pope. Benedict I just absolutely adore it. 765 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: He is such a wonderful gentleman, an erudite person. But 766 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: for some reason I did want to get to know him. 767 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: I felt wonderful in his company. When Benedict looked at you, 768 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: he had the bluest eyes which never seemed to show 769 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 1: up as that blue in pictures. When Benedict looked at you, 770 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: you were the only person in the room. What you 771 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 1: have just said was of the maximum importance. It was 772 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: an amazing you only had a few seconds. Sometimes with popes, 773 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: but still they could be amazing. And then with Francis, 774 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: they've been I've met him three times, more or less 775 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: fleeting visits. But I was a reader at mass in 776 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: his chapel, his private chapel, so we got to talk 777 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: after that mass, and that was very, very nice. But 778 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,720 Speaker 1: again I think with certainly with John Paul, approachable. That's 779 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: how I would say John the twenty third on Paul 780 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,439 Speaker 1: and Pope Francis, the word approachable immediately comes to mind. 781 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: But anybody who said to me that, oh Benedict was 782 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: so cold, and I'd go, oh wow, you didn't give 783 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,160 Speaker 1: him a chance. His warmth was a different kind of warmth. 784 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: Maybe people wouldn't have called him a people's pope, but 785 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,840 Speaker 1: I did. Benedict is such a scholar, amazing, one of 786 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: the great theologians of the twentieth century, so I think 787 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 1: that's part of what surrounds his imagery. But tell me 788 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: from about it. It's been fun watching Callista have an 789 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: opportunity as the ambassador to meet with Pope Francis and 790 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: to be in those kind of settings. And he has 791 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: always been very warm and very charming when he's interacting 792 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 1: with her. And he also likes music, and because of 793 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: her background in the Basilica Choir, she gave him some 794 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: CDs from the Basilica and he really enjoyed him. It's 795 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: a clear part of who he is. But you get 796 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: the sense that this is my take anyway, he is 797 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,799 Speaker 1: the most like a parish priest. He's not a theologian, 798 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,359 Speaker 1: he's not a grand strategist. He's a guy who wants 799 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: to live his religion and in that process bring his flock. 800 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,239 Speaker 1: And he just thinks of now is a bigger flock. 801 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: But he really behaves in a lot of ways like 802 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: a parish priest. I don't know if you would agree 803 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 1: with that or not. I think that's what he wants 804 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: to do more than anything. And of course that's why 805 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: for so long he didn't go out to some of 806 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: the parishes in Rome like John Paul did. Almost all 807 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,360 Speaker 1: of the parishes he visited, Benedict visited a number that 808 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: John Paul hadn't, but Francis did find out what parishes 809 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,400 Speaker 1: in Rome had not been visited by a pope, and 810 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,239 Speaker 1: many were fairly new parishes created since the year two 811 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: thousand and so he would have twenty five people, including 812 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,719 Speaker 1: like the pastor and assistant pastor from that parish, come 813 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 1: to his chapel for Mass in the morning. It's a 814 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: very different setting, just twenty five people as opposed to 815 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: maybe hundreds or a thousand or something. But he does 816 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: care about parish life. I think you're right. If it 817 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: was up to him, he'd walk out some morning and 818 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,480 Speaker 1: go to Saint Monica's or some of the other churches 819 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 1: within walking distance. I mean I have there's one, three 820 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: four places, including Saint Peter's, where I could go to 821 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 1: Mass within five minutes of my house walk You've been 822 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: a number of papal trips over the years, not on 823 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,880 Speaker 1: the papal plane. I did cover the papal trips when 824 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: I worked at the Vatican. We covered the trips from 825 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: inside Vatican City. We did not go. There was a 826 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: separate logistics staff from the Press office that went. But 827 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: with ewten, I've covered various papal visits, mostly of course 828 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,719 Speaker 1: with Benedict, and so it's still on my bucket list 829 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: to go on the papal plane, certainly on whose plane 830 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,600 Speaker 1: I would love to have been. All the trips of 831 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: John Paul one hundred and four foreign Apostolic trips and 832 00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 1: then I've forgotten, but it's a very high number, you know, 833 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,760 Speaker 1: in the eighties or nineties in Italy, or it's probably 834 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: even more than that, where he would visit institutions in Rome, 835 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: dioceses in other parts of Italy and so forth, because 836 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,239 Speaker 1: he was a very peripatetic pope for sure, but he 837 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: never wanted to be away longer than like twelve days. 838 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,759 Speaker 1: So if he would go to Asia, he'd visit as 839 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: many countries as he could, but he never wanted to 840 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: be away from Rome. Because popes are also the bishops 841 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: of Rome. We have to always remember that, and he 842 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: never wanted to be away from Rome for more than 843 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: twelve days. One of the great joys for Christen me 844 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,400 Speaker 1: has been getting to know you, and you've been a 845 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: remarkable friend. I think today once again you've out done yourself. 846 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: People can find you both through your website at Joon's Rome, 847 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,640 Speaker 1: but also on EWTN. It is Joon's Rome. It's my column. 848 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: You can sign up to have it sent to you, 849 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,440 Speaker 1: and I can't tell you how blessed I am. Our 850 00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,840 Speaker 1: friendship goes back to real ten years and it was 851 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 1: a pope who brought us together, John Paul, a man 852 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,080 Speaker 1: we deeply love, and we're delighted he's a saint. So 853 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,000 Speaker 1: our lives have been intertwined. Washington, our friends there, the 854 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: choir now Rome, a pope who's a saint, and a 855 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: friend who's an ambassador. Yep. As always Joan, it's been 856 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,919 Speaker 1: great fun. Thank you for this. It's just been great. 857 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:33,840 Speaker 1: It's been my joy. Thank you Grazzier, Thank you to 858 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: my guest Joan Lewis. You can find links to many 859 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,800 Speaker 1: of the sights in Rome we've discussed in this episode, 860 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: as well as Jones's cookie recipes, photographs of her with 861 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,800 Speaker 1: the pope she's met, and some clips from her storied 862 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,399 Speaker 1: career on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newts 863 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: World is produced by Westward One. The executive producer is 864 00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: Debbie Myers. Our producer is Garnsey Slump, Our editor Robert Borowski. 865 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,439 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 866 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. The music was composed by 867 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,359 Speaker 1: Joey Salvia. Special thanks to the team at Genglish three 868 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:18,719 Speaker 1: sixty and Westwood Ones, Tim Sabian and Robert Mathers. Please 869 00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,279 Speaker 1: email me with your comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. 870 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to 871 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and 872 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,399 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 873 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 1: all about. On the next episode of Newtsworld. On Monday, 874 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,279 Speaker 1: April fifteenth, the entire world watched in horror and disbelief 875 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,920 Speaker 1: as the cathedral of Notre Dame burned. We're releasing a 876 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: special episode of Newtsworld devoted to Notre Dame, its historical 877 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: significance and its importance to Paris in the world. One 878 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: of my favorite authors is Ken Foller. I'm pleased to 879 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,439 Speaker 1: welcome in as my guest to talk about Notre Dame. 880 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,040 Speaker 1: Please join me on this narrative journey Newtsworld. The Notre 881 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,400 Speaker 1: Dame episode premieres tomorrow