WEBVTT - Divine Weapon: The Trident 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:14.320 Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.639 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. Joe, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:24.320 what do you think of when I say the word triedent? Uh? Gum? 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.480 Is that the wrong answer? No? Wait, give me another shot. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:31.120 All right? Okay? I think of Ariel's father in The 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.800 Little Mermaid. I think he's got one. He does. Yes, 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.080 he has some form of trident, as I recall. Wait, No, 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:39.920 that's not a good answer either, is it. No? Wait, 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.479 let's see. How about I think of the devil, right, 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:45.680 the devil's got a trident? He does? He has that 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.320 that pitchfork, which is essentially a trident, a a three 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.720 pronged spear for you know, stabbing sinners in the backside. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:57.160 I imagine, why are you asking me about a particular 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:59.800 three tipped spear weapon, Robert, because that is what we 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:02.160 were talking about today here on Stuff to Blow Your 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.800 Mind Now, Robert, when you said let's do an episode 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.480 about tridents, Originally I admit I have a skeptical I 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.600 was like, what is there to say about tridents? But okay, 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.679 I'm glad I trusted you because we found some weird 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.520 stuff about tridents. This is a topic that I think 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.800 it's been brewing for a while for me, because like 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.480 I grew up seeing these images of you know, Neptune 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.880 or Poseidon with a trident, certainly at the Devil and 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.600 the Pitchfork, and I never really thought about it that 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.120 much because on one level, it didn't look like a 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.160 very good weapon, Like I just I couldn't imagine like 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.000 really cool fighting scenarios with it. I was kind of awkward. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.240 It looks awkward. Yeah, And then when you see it 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.360 used in gladiatorial combat, which we'll we'll discuss in this episode, 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.600 that too looks awkward in force, like that poor guy, 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.559 uh forced to fight for his life and he's given 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.440 such a stupid weapon to do it with. You know, 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:53.800 it looks like it would be much better if you 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.840 were trying to accurately spear of fish and if you're 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.760 trying to like fight a gladiator in the arena. Yes, 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.520 and and indeed that is one of the practical uses 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:05.520 of the trident, which will will also discuss here. But 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:07.680 I think the thing is, I just I kept encountering 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:11.800 the trident in various places. You know, different symbols of 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.840 the trident. Um. You know, I went with my family 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:18.160 to Barbados and the flag. Uh, there has this this 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:22.440 really cool trident image if you start looking for it. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.600 The trident seems to be everywhere and just cultures around 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.800 the world. You know where the trident is not is 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:34.240 in nature. That's right. You look around for trident shapes 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:39.480 in nature. Now there are branching tree shapes everywhere in nature. Uh. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.600 And you know, you can maybe argue that I guess 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.400 there's some sort of trident things. They're like plants with 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.000 three leaf structures. There's like clover and stuff. But I 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.839 try to think of like a three legged animals, say, 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.440 that would be a good analogy in nature for the trident. 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:55.840 But there's no such thing. There is no three legged 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.160 animal in nature, not a naturally occurring one. I mean, 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:00.320 do you do find dogs with three legs? Of course 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.560 there's one of the office. Oh yeah, yeah, Oh, I 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.680 mean three legged dogs are great, But yeah, there are 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.880 not animals that are supposed to have three legs. And 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.280 that's kind of odd, isn't it. Like wouldn't you expect 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.160 there'd be at least one animal out there that has 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.240 three legs. But no, this does not occur. This is 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:23.480 just not something that d NA on Earth makes molecules do. Yeah. Yeah, 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.920 and now you mentioned trees and streams and things of 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.360 this nature, and I do think that is probably part 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.920 of the appeal of of the trident symbol. It implies 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.960 movement into vision. It's also a three in one image, 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.720 three points obeying the thrust of a single combatant, a 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.360 natural visual expression too, of power, both in the power 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.640 of of tool use and in the power of of 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.280 one commanding others to follow their command. So it's no 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.560 wonder that we see see various trident weapons in the 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.760 clutch of gods and demons or other beingings that are 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.680 that are that that we uh that that we embody 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.200 with power. Okay, So it sounds like you're setting up 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.840 the trident as a kind of a divine tool or 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.600 divine weapon by virtue of its three prongs. Yeah, and 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.120 that's where we see it all over the place. And 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.760 we'll get to those wonderful examples of the trident as 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.919 the divine weapons. Is the some sort of of holy 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.359 instrument that the gods use to u, you know, to 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:29.720 inflict damage on the earth. Poor mortals and rival demons, 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.359 and the stemming from that, we also get various holy 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.159 weapons and sacred items that are used by by warriors 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:41.040 and rulers in various cultures. But then we also have 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.480 these just ancient tools that we also find around the world. 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.800 Three pronged fishing spears. Now, why would three prongs be 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.320 especially useful in a fishing spear as opposed to any 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.680 other kind of spear, like say, a hunting spear. I 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.480 was thinking about this, and it seems to me correct 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.240 me if you disagree. The advantage of a three pronged 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.159 spear might have to do with the properties of how 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.080 water interacts with light and the refraction of light as 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.800 it passes through the surface of a body of water. Oh, yes, 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:12.560 we've talked about this, and you can, of course. The 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.039 easiest way to experience this is to have like a glass, 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.760 a clear glass for half filled with water, and then 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.719 you stick a pencil in it and look at the 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.880 glass from the side and and and there's an optical 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.640 illusion that throws you off there. Yeah. So, if there 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.000 if there is difficulty in seeing exactly where you need 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.120 to stab to hit something in the water, especially if 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.359 it's something like a fish, not like a whale or 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.560 something that's like a big easy target to him. But 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.560 if it's like a fish, I can imagine it being 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.800 sometimes difficult to aim correctly to hit the fish with 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.520 a single pronged spear. But if you've got more sort 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.680 of a range of attack points that you can aim 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.800 roughly perpendicular to the fish, then you might have a 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.960 better chance of getting it with somewhat approximate aim. Yeah. 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.159 I like this hypothesis. This, Uh, this, this sounds reasonable. 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:04.040 Now for whatever reason, uh, people have been using spears 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:08.440 to fish with since very ancient times. Their fifteenth century 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.480 b c. Egyptian depictions of it. The Book of Job 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.520 refers to spear fishing as well. And today you can 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:16.760 still you can go online and you can shop for 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.880 fishing spears. You'll find quite a quite quite a few 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.599 different types. You can get your two pronged or bident 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.960 style spears. You can get four or five pronged spheres. 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.480 You can get your three pronged tridents, which I see 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.279 referred to as frog spears. I don't know white white 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:37.400 three is particularly good for for frogs versus these other models. Um, 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.480 but I was looking around about it, and I actually 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.080 looked up a Gizmoto article titled so you want to 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.240 go spear fishing for the very first time? And the 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:49.560 author shares the following quote spear tips. We used both J. B. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:54.040 L's three pronged barbed paralyzer thirty four dollars and basic 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.520 single point spear tip with fold out barbed. The paralyzer 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.840 reduced the need for pinpoint accuracy, but wasn't quite as 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.920 good as the single point at retaining fish once they 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.719 were speared. The compromises of life, Yes, now, I have 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:12.119 to admit, for the longest, like basically up until this week, 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.559 I just always assumed that the tridents that you see 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.160 held by various gods and beings and in these various 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.119 myths and artistic depictions, I just assumed that they were 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:27.920 all fishing spears that had been you know, transformed from 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.600 a mundane tool to a divine object. Because we see 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.280 this kind of movement a lot, right, We see God's 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.080 wielding things like hammers. Oh yeah, Thor's hammer. It's what's 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:42.000 it called mule near? That sounds right, mule dear? Okay, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.440 so mule dear um. But you know it, it makes sense, right, 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.840 you have these these these these objects, these tools, and 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.520 then when we we we create these gods, we give 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:56.080 them things signify various powers and acts. Um. There's a 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:01.360 there's one curious case two of the Chinese. He's a ruyee, 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.680 which is a scepter, a royal scepter, so a symbol 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.000 of divine power, right, you know, you just one with 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.720 power would brandish it. It identifies that they have the 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:11.880 power to command people around. And then you can, if 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.360 you want, you can point it at various things and say, hey, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.200 you give me that. Right, That's basically the function of 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:21.160 a scepter, except this particular scepter has also clearly been 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.440 used as a backscratcher. So there there's kind of you see, 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:29.200 different theories about this, whether it began as a backscratcher 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.280 or it is just a you know, just a symbol 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.720 of power that was then used as a backscratcher later on. 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:40.679 So divine emperor's itch too. Yeah. But but it's it's 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.959 interesting because which which direction is the movement going. Is 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:48.840 the object going from mundane, practical object to something that 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.439 is merely symbolic, or is the movement going in the 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.960 other direction, something that has no practical purpose. But then 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.320 a practical purpose emerges for it. Well, that's a really 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.320 good question. I would tend to assume that it could 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.040 go both ways, right, But which which did it go 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:09.760 in this case? Because obviously, yeah, practical tools take on divine, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.040 divine aspects, especially when they become you know, embedded in 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.320 our consciousness, like if we use them a lot, the 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.040 tool sort of becomes an extension of the body. So 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:21.600 in the same way that the body has a counterpart 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.800 in heaven. Of course, the tool is an extension of 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.280 the body has a counterpart in heaven. I mean, there 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.880 is no actual Thor's hammer, But if you have a 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.360 king or an emperor with a divine scepter, you know 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:34.360 they've got it around. They might as well use it 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.680 for things that they need. A big stick for scratching 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:39.920 backs might be one of those things. There might be 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.200 other things too. Now, coming back to tried dent's before 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.160 we proceed with some mythological examples, we should probably touch 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:48.280 on the the etymology of the word uh tri dent 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.559 comes from the Latin tried dentists or three toothed as 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.920 opposed to buy dent, which we also have have referred to. 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.560 And we'll referred to, which would be a two toothed 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.760 weapon which has enjoyed avoid arguably less symbolic success that 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.080 you do see it pop up in artistic depictions. Now, 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.559 I just thought of a great superhero superhero who fights 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.880 with the tuning fork, be like a musical superhero. It 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:17.240 would be called like the tuner. The tuner, yeah, tuner 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.960 is Yeah, that's essentially a bident. All right, So let's 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:24.080 talk about some some mythic examples of trident use, or 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.959 things that at least appear to be tridents and have 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:32.120 been treated as tridents by in various interpretations. Robert, please 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.480 please tell me you're gonna take me to ancient Babylon. 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.280 Of course, we always go to ancient Babylon. It's the 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.120 best place to go all the best gods. Yeah, well, 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.559 we're gonna actually check in with our old friend mar 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.960 Duke here. Um. Mar Duke is often seen with an 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:50.359 odd looking three toothed weapon, uh that is sometimes interpreted 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.360 as a form of trident. Now, mar Duke was a 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.319 Babylonian thunder god who eventually rose up in the pantheon 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.720 to the point that he became considered the prime god 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.600 of Babylon and was apparently described with fifty different names, 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.640 and he's also the slayer of the primordial Tiamat uh. 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:11.040 And there's actually a wonderful uh image depicting this where 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.400 you see this uh, this winged of like lion, dragon 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.800 like monster and here comes mar Duke with these with 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.480 one of these weapons in each hand. Why would he 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.880 have a trident? Why would he have a phishing spear? 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.760 Because there are plenty of other Babylonian gods that are 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:28.760 that are associated with the ocean, they would be the 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.120 ones to have the trident, right. Uh. So I was 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.080 reading about this, I found a book by Derek m 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.320 Elsom titled Lightning, Nature and Culture, which has a lot 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.920 of info in it about various thunder and lightning gods. 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.440 So if that's if that's your jam, I highly recommend 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.439 picking that up. But the author makes a connection between 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.400 the trident weapon of mar Duke and not fishing, but lightning. Lightning, 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.600 of course, is a traditional weapon of mighty gods, right, 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.280 I mean that's the weapon of Zeus, and Zeus is 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:01.720 sometimes depicted holding three thunderbolts in his hand. Elsa writes 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:06.080 the images of successive storm gods in Mesopotamia depicted on 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.520 monuments and cylinder seals reveal developments in the depiction of lightning. 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.080 Lightning was originally shown by two or three wavy or 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.959 zigzag lines representing the celestial flames of its flashes or bolts. 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:21.840 They were later joined together at the bottom by a 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.880 short stem handle or sometimes a longer staff that the 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:30.120 storm god would hold and throw. The two pronged bident 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.760 and and three pronged trident thunder weapon should not be 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.560 confused with Poseidon's trident, which usually has barbs on the 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:42.520 prongs like a fishing spear. He continues. An alternative development 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.200 and imagery along with the addition of a short stem 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.960 or staff to the lightning flashes, was that two or 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.840 three of the wavy lines were placed together to form 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.160 a bundle of lightning flashes. The middle of this bundle 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.640 was later modified and molded together to create a hand grip, 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.600 and the single underbolt or karania was formed with two 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.680 active ends. So what we're seeing here isn't a double 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:12.520 bladed trident sword as much as a clutch of three thunderbolts. 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.160 With the style drifting over the years. You know, I 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.679 think I misspoke a minute ago when I said Zeus 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.880 is holding the three thunderbolts. Zeus is sometimes depicted holding 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.400 something that looks like a bundle of thunderbolts or something 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.760 like that. But specifically, what I was thinking of was 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.840 the god a DoD or hadd, another ancient Near Eastern 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.520 storm god who clutched three thunderbolts exactly like you're talking 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.000 about it. It also reminds me of another odd weapon 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.760 slash symbol that one comes across in a Hindu iconography, 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.679 and one that has also intrigued me in the past, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.640 the vadra. One finds the vadra either as an embellishment 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.560 on the pommel of a sword or on both ends 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.319 of a hilt in the same manner as this. Uh, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:58.040 this this symbol that Marduke is holding, and also points 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.440 out that this too is a highly hillis thunderbolt quote 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.240 shaped like a double ended flower bulb or club. That 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.880 is a wicked sword. I mean it looks like it 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.120 looks like a good old sword hat made out of 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.280 gold fire. Yeah. Yeah. If you if you want to 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.320 see this for yourself, just do an image search for 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.400 vadra that's v A j r A and then sword 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.000 and you'll see some wonderful examples of this, But there 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:24.200 are also straight up tridents in the in the Hindu pantheon, right, 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.960 that's right. Shiva has a weapon that is known as 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.400 the trishula, which we'll get to in a minute. But 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.840 before we get to Ta Shiva, we should probably talk 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.320 a little bit about Poseidon or Neptune or well, first 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.000 we should take a break, and then when we come back, 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.440 we will get into the Greek god of the sea. 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.040 Thank you, thank alright, we're back. Sorry to keep Poseidon 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.120 waiting like that, but but he's patient, right, he's not 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.160 so patient, right the Sidon, because Sidon holds the grudges, 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.520 doesn't Hey, he does. He's the enemy of Odysseus, that's right. Uh, 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.720 and reaks a lot of havoc u in Odysseus's direction 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.520 with that try that symbolic divine weapon that he uses 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.600 to just pretty much what make anybody's life miserable that 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.480 gets in his way? Now what I can't remember. How 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:15.040 does Poseidon use his his trident against Odysseus. Well, in general, 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.800 he uses it to basically just to stir things up, 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:22.640 quite literally, to to to stir up storms, devatating, devastating waves, 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.200 to create new sources of water, just general geologic chaos. 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.920 I don't is that the best use of tool physics? 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.200 If you're using a trident to stir things up, wouldn't 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.320 it be better if he had a powerful magic spoon 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.240 or something with a large flat surface to really get 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.920 the waters churning like an or Yeah, it seems like 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:42.480 a tried. It might be better if you wanted to, 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.240 I don't know what, like dissolve some sugar into the water. 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.000 This is a great question though, because it gets down 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.520 to the heart of why does Poseidon have this weapon? 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.400 Like I've having just grown up seeing images of Poseidon 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.920 my whole life, I just I never really questioned it, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:00.960 like that's the weapon he has? And then when I 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.080 thought about it, I'm like, Oh, it's a fishing spear, right, 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.160 That's all there is to it. Well, yeah, he's got 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.920 of the sea. There's some fish in the sea, I think, right, 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.400 aren't there fish in the sea? That's what I'm told 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.840 makes sense now. The mythic origins of the weapon very 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.720 is one might expect with with myth and mythic traditions. Uh. 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.560 It was perhaps the work of of the master crafts 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:24.120 people or giants who were known as the Telconese who 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.720 also created Chronus's sickle, or it was the gift of 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.880 the cyclothes that's plural for Cyclops. Now, didn't Poseidon have 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.320 a son who was a cyclops? He did? He did it? 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:41.760 Gets it gets complicated, um, But this is what Apollodorus 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.520 had to say in the library, as translated by Fraser Okay. 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.520 And the cyclothes then gave Zeus thunder and lightning and 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.240 a thunderbolt, and on Pluto they bestowed a helmet, and 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.720 on Poseidon a trident. Armed with these weapons, the gods 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.680 overcame the Titans shut them up in Tartarus and appointed 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.840 the hundred handers their guards. But they themselves cast lots 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.359 for the sovereignty. And to Zeus was a lot to 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.280 the dominion of the sky, and to Poseidon the dominion 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.560 of the sea, and to Pluto the dominion in Hades. 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:16.440 So is it better to get the sea or to 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.080 get Hades. I always thought that, like Poseidon came in 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.240 second I was kind of my read. But that's that's 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.800 like kind of a land locked way of looking at it, right, 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:27.960 I mean, I was that's me as a child in 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:32.199 Tennessee thinking about about the ocean. But if you were 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.600 a Greek, it might well be the opposite, or it 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.680 might well be the case that that Zeus and Poseidon 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.280 are on equal footing. Yeah, if you're a seafaring culture, 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.800 say a lot of your economy is based on trade 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.760 across the oceans or on fishing. Uh, you've got to 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:47.520 think that a god of the sea is much more 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.159 consequential than we would normally consider a god of the 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.760 sea living in you know, some kind of landlocked area. 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:54.800 Like you say, I mean the whims of the sea 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.840 decide your fortunes and then Hades. I mean certainly that 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.400 had is. It's everybody right, there's no whims of Hades. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.240 Hades is just it's like death and taxes. So maybe 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.720 they all maybe they're these they are truly equal, uh, 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.800 portions of the cosmos. But this actually ties into some 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.560 of the research I was looking at. HB. Walters wrote 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.919 a paper in that was published in the Journal of 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.520 Hellenistic Studies. So we got we got an archaic but 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.720 scholarship here. Yeah, this is this is this one's a 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:30.400 bit old, but but it actually reads really really well. 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.960 It's a very nicely written paper. But he discusses the 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.840 artistic evolution of the trident and discusses that that, you know, 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.959 the writing of the trident predates any artistic depiction that 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.600 was then known. But if you look at the Iliad, 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.680 there's nothing to indicate the shape of the trident. There's 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.040 there's merely the suggestion, based on the word choice, that 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:55.439 it's composed of three parts in some key way. So 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:57.760 it could be like three sticks bound in the middle 0:18:57.880 --> 0:18:59.640 or something, I guess. I mean, if it's if you're 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.160 just looking at the word and there's some room for interpretation, 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:07.000 they're interesting. So Walters looked at various early artistic examples 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:11.560 and he traced an interesting evolution for the depiction of tridents. Uh, 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.040 not from like a fishing spear to more elaborate uh, 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.800 you know, three pronged weapons or symbols, but from a 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.119 lotus bud to this barbed, three pronged spear that we 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.680 associate with with the side and the neptin. Now, what's 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.600 the significance of the lotus bud? Well, this is interesting. 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.320 This gets back to what was something we're talking about earlier. 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.760 The trident. The proper trident may not appear in nature, 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.760 but something like a lotus bud does, and has this 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.760 trifold design and instantly speaks to us with various you know, 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.440 symbology related to uh to you know, units of three. 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:46.520 I want to come back to the significance of that 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.880 symbology in a little bit. This lotus sceptor is apparently 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.320 pretty common in Greek art and is typically held by 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:56.560 a god or goddess, and Zeus himself is seen in 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.280 in various depictions with a with a very similar scepter. 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.359 So the idea is that this lotus bud scepter eventually 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:07.399 somehow morphed into the three pronged weapon. Yes, the idea 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.479 here is that the lotus staff was the emblem of Zeus, 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.159 and that there might have been just less distinction between 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.439 Zeus and Poseidon among early Greeks, and the Poseidon might 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.400 have been nothing short of Zeus's marine form. I've read 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.399 the exact same thing, that Poseidon was in some sense 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.680 the Zeus of the sea. Yeah, and uh, and so 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.680 they simply had the same scepter. But then as time 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.000 goes by, as we as we have different artistic depictions 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.240 a roll one after the other. You see this, uh, 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:40.240 this evolution, you see this uh, this distinction made and 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.000 this this thing. This scepter, the symbol that Poseidon is 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:49.040 holding gradually comes to resemble a phishing spear rather than 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.000 the lotus scepter of Zeus. Oh. If this is a 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.280 correct explanation, this is fantastic because it matches up some 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:56.879 stuff we've talked about on the show before that I 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.040 always really like where there there's a way of interpreting 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:05.880 an artistic tradition as deriving from a misunderstanding of previous art. 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.359 One explanation for the origin of the unicorn tradition is 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:14.480 that possibly there were ancient depictions on say, uh, cylinder 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:18.440 seals or something like that, of natural animals naturally occurring 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.840 two horned animals like the Arx or the ibex, but 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:24.520 they're depicted in profile, so it looks like they've only 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.000 got one horn shooting up out of their head because 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.480 the horns are lined up with each other as the 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.280 animals in profile. And so people saw that misunderstood it, 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.480 thought that there was this one horned animal out there, 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.240 and started the unicorn tradition. We don't know that's what happened, 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.280 but that's highly possible. Uh, And so maybe what's going 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:47.040 on here is a similar like misinterpretation of previous generations 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.919 of artists depicting a god holding something. Yeah, it reminds 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.240 me of the line from member to echo about books 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.080 speaking to other books. But of course art works of 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:00.679 art speak to other works of art. Yeah, so that's correct. 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:04.280 That's really interesting, so Walter also. Walters also references the 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:08.440 work of John O'Neill, who argued that the Hindu through 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.040 shula which we're about to talk about, may have also 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.280