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Speaker 1: Oh no, it's not Santa, it's Nancy Grace. Are you

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Speaker 1: trying to find the perfect gift for a parent or

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Speaker 1: an expecting parent, Please do not give them another onesie.

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Speaker 1: Don't do it, and not another plastic toy that is

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Speaker 1: going to end up in the trash being or the

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Speaker 1: garage or sent to Goodwill this holiday season. Give them

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Speaker 1: something that really matters, and what matters more than protecting

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Speaker 1: their child. I sat down with the smartest people in

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Speaker 1: the world that I know when it comes to child safety,

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Speaker 1: finding missing children, and fighting back against predators, and what

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Speaker 1: I learned is so critical and the information so powerful

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Speaker 1: and important. I want you to have it. I want

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Speaker 1: them as parents to have it. Go to crimestops here

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Speaker 1: dot com for a five part series with action information

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Speaker 1: that you can use to change your life and protect

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Speaker 1: your child. Because I I've done it myself based on

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Speaker 1: what they have told me. Give that as a gift,

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Speaker 1: not another onesie. Please find out how to protect your

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Speaker 1: child out and about at the mall, at the store,

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Speaker 1: at the grocery store, in parking lots, in parking decks,

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Speaker 1: at your home, in your neighborhood. Find out about protection

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Speaker 1: regarding babysitters nanny's daycare, even protection online. It's the very

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Speaker 1: best gift you can give any parent. Go to crimestops

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Speaker 1: here dot com and join the Justice Nation crime stops

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Speaker 1: here dot com Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Can you

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Speaker 1: show me the area that you guys searched in? Makes

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Speaker 1: you play? This area about five acres? Alton Renew and

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Speaker 1: David Arnette were among the first lawn horseman officers to

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Speaker 1: get a call about a missing duck hunter. What we

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Speaker 1: thought had happened? Is it he possibly fell out of

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Speaker 1: the boat or capsized. Is it unusual for people to

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Speaker 1: fall out of boats while they're hunting for ducks? It's

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Speaker 1: not unusual. It happens quite awful out here, for he

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Speaker 1: might hit a stump and throw him out. Early the

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Speaker 1: next morning, there was a break. Mike's boat was found

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Speaker 1: on board or some decoys and his shotgun, but no

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Speaker 1: sign of Mike himself. What happened? Out duck hunting husband

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Speaker 1: Mike Williams goes missing near Tallahassee, his body believed to

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Speaker 1: be in the water. But oh what a tangled web

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Speaker 1: we weave when first we practice to deceive. Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: here Crime Stories, thank you for being with us straight

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Speaker 1: out to John Limley Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter

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Speaker 1: John Limley, how did this guy and sperienced hunter fall overboard?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what dides buddy say about how he fell overboard?

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Speaker 1: It was a complicated story, to say the very least.

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Speaker 1: As Denise Williams begins the tale to police, on the

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Speaker 1: morning of December sixteenth, her husband woke up early, leaving

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Speaker 1: their house on Centennial Oak Circle well before dawn bowed

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Speaker 1: and tow to go duck hunting at Lake Seminole. This

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Speaker 1: is a large reservoir just west northwest of Tallahassee. The

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Speaker 1: couple actually had plans to celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary

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Speaker 1: that night in Appalachicola at noon. Denise, stop right there,

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Speaker 1: Jile Emily, investigative reporter. Have you ever been to Appalachicola?

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Speaker 1: I have not. Actually, it is some of the prettiest

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Speaker 1: beach I've ever seen in my life. Nobody seems to

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Speaker 1: know about it. And in Appalachicola, I'm telling you, you

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Speaker 1: can get the best oysters in shrimp at this little

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Speaker 1: place called Boss Oyster. And I have a very strong

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Speaker 1: suspicion they may have been going there to celebrate I mean,

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Speaker 1: Ashley Woolcott. This is on the Panhandle, and it is beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's really the salt life. Everybody has a boat, whether

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Speaker 1: it's a little skiff or a big, beautiful, expensive thing.

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Speaker 1: Everybody has a boat, even if it's tiny, and they

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Speaker 1: are out on the water. They are fishing, they are

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Speaker 1: living the salt life. I'm telling you, Ashley, you know

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Speaker 1: about the Panhandle, right, Yeah, I've been and I agree

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Speaker 1: with you. It's absolutely gorgeous and it's a whole different

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Speaker 1: attitude because it is the salt life. They are on

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Speaker 1: the boat, they're enjoying life. They're out in the beautiful weather,

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Speaker 1: beautiful beaches, beautiful fishing. Let me tell you a little story, Ashley.

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Speaker 1: My dad who you know. Don't tell my husband, but

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Speaker 1: I still say he was my soul mate. It's from

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Speaker 1: a little city called well, it's not really a city

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Speaker 1: called Hey Cody. Yes, it's really a place Hey Cody.

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Speaker 1: I think that's an Indian name. And it's near. To

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Speaker 1: give you a perspective, it is near Mobile. Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: near Sampson, which is near Mobile. That's how you have

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Speaker 1: to find it. So long story short, it's the Panhandle, Alabama.

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Speaker 1: Florida Panhandle, and he grew up crabbing and fishing. And

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Speaker 1: I remember going to these exact spots as a little girl,

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Speaker 1: and my sister and I were supposed to watch the

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Speaker 1: crabs not get out of the net, and of course

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Speaker 1: they would, and we'd run away from the crabs. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but the beaches are so deserted you could get them

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Speaker 1: right back in. That's where they were. They were along

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Speaker 1: the Panhandle, but they were on Lake Seminole. And it

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Speaker 1: is not unusual, as this cop said, for people to

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Speaker 1: fall in the water because so many people there are

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Speaker 1: boating and fishing. All right, sorry, John Lamley, I digress,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, back to the store. Absolutely well. It was

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Speaker 1: at noon that same day that Denise calls her dad

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Speaker 1: to let him know that Mike had not come back.

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Speaker 1: That's when her father hopped in his car drove with

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Speaker 1: Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, to the areas of the

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Speaker 1: lake where they knew Mike Williams frequently went duck hunting.

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Speaker 1: They were able to find his night. Wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, the wife goes with the friend to

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Speaker 1: look for him. It wasn't the friend with him when

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Speaker 1: he fell in the water or no, well this is

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Speaker 1: this is later in the day that that Brian Winchester

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Speaker 1: goes with them with the dad where they knew that

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Speaker 1: he went duck cutting and that's when they found the

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety You're so not answering my question. I'm asking you,

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Speaker 1: John Limley, did the victim in this case go with

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Speaker 1: his long time high school friend, Brian will Winchester duck hunting?

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Speaker 1: And absolutely? Why were they? Okay, they were duck hunting

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Speaker 1: out on a boat. Correct, So you go out into

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Speaker 1: the water to scare the ducks up out of stumps

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Speaker 1: that are or swampy area. Is that why they were

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Speaker 1: out on the water shooting guns? Right, usually go into

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Speaker 1: an area that is camouflaged by a lot of vegetation.

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Speaker 1: How do you know that, John Limley, You've never really

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Speaker 1: struck me as a hunter or out in a swamp.

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Speaker 1: I try to research research, Well, okay, so you don't

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Speaker 1: know firsthand? No, I do not, okay, Bober, doctor Daniel

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Speaker 1: Bober forensic psychiatrists. I didn't really see you as the

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Speaker 1: type out and no, not out in a boat and

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Speaker 1: swamp with a gun shooting at ducks. Yes, no, maybe doctor,

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Speaker 1: boat Okay, it's probably not me, Okay, all right, So

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Speaker 1: I'm down to Karen Smith. Karen Smith, you actually seen

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Speaker 1: the most likely to go duck counting of this bunch.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you what they're saying. I

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Speaker 1: have no idea. I have never duck hunted either, Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, So it's on me, all right. Actually, I

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Speaker 1: guess you know there's a lot of stumps and growths

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Speaker 1: and trees out in the middle of swampy area. So

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Speaker 1: I guess the ducks are hiding there and you scare

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Speaker 1: them up and shoot them. That's my guess. Okay. I

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Speaker 1: didn't see a gun or touchy gun until I was

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor, contrary to everyone's beliefs about the south Land.

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Speaker 1: So they're out in a boat. Let me get back

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Speaker 1: to you, Limley. They're out in a boat. They're shooting ducks.

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Speaker 1: And this is what I don't understand. The high school

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Speaker 1: friend they I mean they're grown now, is out fishing

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Speaker 1: with I mean, shooting with him. Why are you telling me,

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Speaker 1: Limley that they go back to where they think he was.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't he know where he was? Well that's where the

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Speaker 1: stories begin to get really tangled and confusing, because one

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Speaker 1: story is being told by Denice, another by Brian. He

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Speaker 1: comes back into the city and is now helping the

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Speaker 1: dad look for his best friend, and so the timelines

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Speaker 1: very clearly do not match up. Well, I don't see

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Speaker 1: a problem so far. I don't even know what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about, John Limley, because you're saying the friend Brian Winchester,

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Speaker 1: goes out with Mike. They go duck hunting out in

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Speaker 1: Lake Seminole, he falls overboard, the friend comes back, and

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Speaker 1: then the wife gets involved. I don't see the inconsistency

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Speaker 1: with that. Am I missing something because that's all I've

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Speaker 1: heard from you so far. Well, the story at that

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Speaker 1: point was that he didn't know fully what happened to

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Speaker 1: his friend Mike. They were looking for for what happened

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Speaker 1: to him. He's sitting in the boat and then he disappeared.

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Speaker 1: You know what, that reminds me of, Ashley will kind.

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Speaker 1: That reminds me one of my favorite shows, Bewitched. You know,

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Speaker 1: actually just disappear. But that was a TV show, Ashley.

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Speaker 1: People don't just disappear. Yeah, see, you can tell already

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Speaker 1: the story is a little flimsy. And he said some

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Speaker 1: stinks who fell overboard and then he was gone. It

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Speaker 1: stinks that's exactly right. Listen to our friend at CBS

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Speaker 1: forty eight hours, Mike Slussinger are talking with Alton Raimu

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Speaker 1: and David Arnel. We've done a grid search, very slow,

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Speaker 1: meticulous grid search, back and forth, old in search area,

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Speaker 1: and what began as a search and rescue soon turned

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Speaker 1: into a search for a body. We stayed with that

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Speaker 1: grid until we covered this whole area. Couldaver dogs were

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Speaker 1: brought in while teams scoured the murky bottom of Lake

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Speaker 1: Seminole in a gruesome search for Mike's body that was

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Speaker 1: high intensity and low tech. This is the tool of

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Speaker 1: your trade, right that was that was actually one of

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Speaker 1: the poles. And all you do is put it in

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Speaker 1: the water and see if you feel anything. If there's

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Speaker 1: a log, there's kind of a thump, kind of a

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Speaker 1: hard thump. If it would been her body, you hit it,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like a pillow. Did you feel something

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Speaker 1: ever on the bottom that felt like a never Maybe

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Speaker 1: he just abandoned his family or something like that. That

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Speaker 1: that was the strongest scenario of everything that we had.

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Speaker 1: It was do you believe that? I mean, did you

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Speaker 1: think that was possible? I thought that was possibility. What

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Speaker 1: did you think we knew Mike cannot run off? I

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Speaker 1: mean he loved his family and he adored his daughter,

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Speaker 1: adored her, So Mike did not run off. This was

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Speaker 1: not some elaborate ruse. Soon there was another explanation offered

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Speaker 1: for why Mike's body could not be found, that he

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Speaker 1: had been snatched by an alligator. Alligators, they don't eat

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Speaker 1: you right then, this is morbid to talk about, but

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Speaker 1: they go stuff you somewhere for six months and then

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Speaker 1: come back later. One of the rescue teams agreed, writing

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Speaker 1: the alligators have dismembered and have stored the remains in

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Speaker 1: a location that we would not be able to find.

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Speaker 1: What happened to husband and father Mike Williams. He goes

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Speaker 1: out duck hunting and never comes back. Was it an

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Speaker 1: elaborate ruse to get away from responsibility? Was he helped

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Speaker 1: by his high school friend Brian Winchester longtime best friend

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Speaker 1: from high school? Or as he a fatality? Was his

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Speaker 1: body at the bottom of Lake Seminole being stored by

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Speaker 1: an alligator dismembered joining me Ashley Wilcot, judge lawyer, You

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Speaker 1: can find her at Ashley Wilcot dot com, Karen Smith,

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Speaker 1: renowned forensics expert, doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and joining

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Speaker 1: me right now. Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Lmley. So, John,

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Speaker 1: the friend Brian Winchester, I would have hooked him up

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Speaker 1: to a polygraph pronto to figure out if he helped

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Speaker 1: Mike Williams, you know, take a powder crap out on

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Speaker 1: his wife and family. So the wife is in hysterics,

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Speaker 1: Denise Williams. You can't find Mike Williams anywhere, not as jacket,

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Speaker 1: not anything belonging to him. Brian Winchester is the last

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Speaker 1: one with him out in the middle of Lake Seminole

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Speaker 1: on a boat, and then you get the final decision

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Speaker 1: by the police. Will and alligators dismembered him and is

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Speaker 1: storing him for when he gets the munchies in about

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Speaker 1: six months. So that's what we know. So, John Lemley,

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Speaker 1: what happens next? Did any part of the body ever

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Speaker 1: surface or was there a siding of Mike Williams. There

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Speaker 1: was no body parts or no sightings at all. However,

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Speaker 1: within days parts of his clothing started showing up along

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Speaker 1: the shore in different places. The initial search was handled

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Speaker 1: in a way that they were viewing it as a

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Speaker 1: missing hunter, and the agency handles those cases in a

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Speaker 1: completely different way, focusing on search and rescue or recovery.

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Speaker 1: So in their minds, they're looking for a living person.

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Speaker 1: But when these pieces of clothing began popping up, that's

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Speaker 1: when investigators began to think they're dealing with something else. Well,

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Speaker 1: not everybody bought the alligator story. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: Tella has A Democrat reporter Jennifer Portsmouth reporting on Mike's mother.

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Speaker 1: The case of the missing Hunter seemed closed and was

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Speaker 1: soon forgotten by almost everyone, but not by Mike's mother

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Speaker 1: Sheryl did she believe that her son drowned in Lake

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Speaker 1: summin All. She never ever believed that her son was

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Speaker 1: in the lake. Not from day one, Not from day

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Speaker 1: one did she think it happen. She didn't know. All

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Speaker 1: she knew was that her son was not in that lake.

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Speaker 1: She just knew it, knew it like a motto, something

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Speaker 1: just deep inside of her. And she was absolutely committed

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Speaker 1: to finding out what happened to him. It's never out

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Speaker 1: of my head. Where is this child? He may be good,

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Speaker 1: but he's not in that like and if somebody did

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Speaker 1: hurt my child. I want them found and I want

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Speaker 1: him punish. Karen Smith, forensics expert. If they have the boat,

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Speaker 1: what if anything could that prove? Well, it could prove

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Speaker 1: a lot of different things, Nancy. Did the boat have

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Speaker 1: water in it? Was it completely dry? You know these

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Speaker 1: small boats they tipped, they're going to have water in

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Speaker 1: it also. But it's from clothing. You know, alligators, If

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Speaker 1: that theory pans out, they're not delicate eaters. Where their

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Speaker 1: rips were their tears? Was the clothing indicative of a

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Speaker 1: gator attack? Was there any other forensic evidence within that clothing?

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Speaker 1: You know? The boat itself? Was his wallet? There was

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Speaker 1: his information? There was there other indicators? Was his gun

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Speaker 1: still laying there? Was his gun missing? If he was

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Speaker 1: duck hunting? All of these things are going to play

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Speaker 1: into a timeline, and it's going to play into what

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Speaker 1: really happened. So as one piece of clothing after the

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Speaker 1: next starts floating up to the surface, everyone's looking from

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Speaker 1: Mike Williams, did he just leave town or did an

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Speaker 1: alligator devour him? How did he get in the water

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Speaker 1: to start with? To John Limley, what can you tell

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Speaker 1: me about his background? For instance, how did he meet

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Speaker 1: his wife Denise. Well, Denise and Mike were actually high

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Speaker 1: school sweethearts. It's that great old story that we hear

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Speaker 1: so often. In reality, you know, most of the time

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Speaker 1: it's not true. In this case, it is. They met

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Speaker 1: at North Florida Christian School in Tallahassee, and most details

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Speaker 1: from their early lives to the couple's college days at

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Speaker 1: Florida are interchangeable. Both were active in extracurriculars through high school.

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Speaker 1: Mike was a promising football player, voted best Personality. His wife,

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Speaker 1: then known by the maiden name Denise Merrill, was a

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Speaker 1: cheerleader for the North Florida Eagles. Former classmates and even

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Speaker 1: then current friends of Mike say he was very well respected,

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Speaker 1: then at private school, then in business, where he excelled

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Speaker 1: in both. It wasn't unlike Mike to step into the

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Speaker 1: role of a protective older brother and to look over

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Speaker 1: younger friends and family members. Mike and Denise graduated in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, alongside classmates Brian Winchester and his future bride,

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Speaker 1: Kathy Aldridge. The two couples remained close as they each

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Speaker 1: married in nineteen ninety four and had children, So those coach.

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Speaker 1: Couples became very best friends. They're all they go way

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Speaker 1: way back. Now. As a matter of fact, Williams the victim.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Mike Williams and Brian Winchester

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Speaker 1: hay gone duck hunting that day and then somehow he disappears.

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Speaker 1: Everybody has to the light together with their boat to

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Speaker 1: start searching, and they search in the dark hours and

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Speaker 1: hours and hours until Winchester and his dad stumble on

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Speaker 1: williams motorized canoe and it was kind of uptouching the

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Speaker 1: lake shore. They found his ford Bronco about seventy five

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Speaker 1: yards away, abandoned, and that's all they found. But eventually,

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Speaker 1: after they searched, they found at the very bottom of

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Speaker 1: Lake Seminole, his hunting license, his jacket, his waiters. Investigators

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Speaker 1: convinced Williams was eaten by alligators or in North Florida

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of alligators. We went back out there,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was more evidence that there was there

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Speaker 1: had been alligator activity around there. That's what you believed

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Speaker 1: happened to Mike, Yes, I firmly believe that. I guess

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Speaker 1: you're sort of hoping you find something and sort of

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Speaker 1: hoping you don't what I was just hoping if he

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Speaker 1: was here, we would find him and get closured. But

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Speaker 1: now it didn't have. People are attacked by alligators, little

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Speaker 1: dogs are eaten by alligators. But you never hear of

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Speaker 1: someone who's just vanished, eaten by an whole by an alligator. Hi,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace here? Have you ever googled yourself, your neighbors,

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Speaker 1: somebody at work a crush? Fifty seven percent of Americans

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00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 1: admit keeping an eye on their own online reputation. Forty

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Speaker 1: six admit to using the Internet to look up somebody

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Speaker 1: from their past. But Google and Facebook the tip of

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00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 1: the iceberg when it comes to finding personal information. There's

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00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 1: an innovative new website called truth Finder. It's now revealing

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00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 1: the full scoop on millions of Americans. Truthfinder can search

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00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 1: through hundreds of millions of public records in a matter

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00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 1: of minutes. Truth Finder members can literally he begins searching

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00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 1: in seconds for sensitive data like criminal traffic arrest records.

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Speaker 1: Before you bring someone new into your life and around

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Speaker 1: the people you care for your children, consider using Truthfinder.

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00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 1: What you find may astound you. Go to truthfinder dot com,

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Speaker 1: forward slash Nancy right away to start searching truthfinder dot

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00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 1: com forward slash Nancy truthfinder dot Com forward slash Nancy

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Speaker 1: find the truth crime stories with Nancy Grace. The investigation

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Speaker 1: goes on, and then and the weeks and months that

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Speaker 1: follow nobody finds him. But then Denise, the wife, goes broke.

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Speaker 1: But Scott Dungee says, now that Denise was a single mom,

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Speaker 1: money was getting tight. I was helping her with some

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Speaker 1: of the items that needed to be sold and to

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Speaker 1: generate some cash until the insurance money came. And there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of insurance money involved. Williams had three

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Speaker 1: policies worth more than one point seven to five million dollars.

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Speaker 1: With her expenses reportedly mounting, Denise went after the insurance

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Speaker 1: money quickly. While the search itself is still going on,

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Speaker 1: while he is still actively missing, they're still actively searching

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Speaker 1: for her. She is going and filing a claim against

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Speaker 1: his life insurance. She was really ready to accept the

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Speaker 1: fact that he was missing and presumed dead very early on,

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Speaker 1: but the state of Florida was not. According to Florida law,

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Speaker 1: since there was no proof Williams had died, he would

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Speaker 1: not be declared dead for five years how much time

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Speaker 1: it had taken this case, it took six months. It

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Speaker 1: was very fast, abnormally fast. That's because Denise's at He

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Speaker 1: argued to a judge that the waiters, the vest, and

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Speaker 1: the hunting license were proof enough that William's dead. The

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Speaker 1: judge agreed and issued a death certificate cause of death

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Speaker 1: accidental drowning while duck hunting on Lake Seminole. Body has

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Speaker 1: not yet been recovered. Based on that and that alone

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Speaker 1: was what got him declared dead. Parro waiters in a

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Speaker 1: fishing license and yeah, exactly straight out. To John Limley,

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter with Crime online dot Com, John Limley, the

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Speaker 1: facts to me are very confusing. Let me understand this.

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Speaker 1: Did he go out originally alone on the boat or

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Speaker 1: was he with the high school friend. They allegedly chose

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Speaker 1: December ninth as the day Winchester would take Mike on

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Speaker 1: a duck hunting trip, knock him overboard, and stage his

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Speaker 1: death as a boating mishap, But the morning of the

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Speaker 1: trip arrived and Mike called Winchester to back out. Winchester

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Speaker 1: invited Mike to go on another duck hunting trip, but

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Speaker 1: it seems no one else in Mike's family knew that

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Speaker 1: he was meeting Brian, so it was in the early

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Speaker 1: morning hours of December sixteenth that the two pals launched

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Speaker 1: their boat out into Lake Seminole. When they reached a

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Speaker 1: landing down from where they parked their vehicles, Winchester got

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Speaker 1: Mike to stand up, and that's when he shoves him overboard.

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Speaker 1: After that, Mike takes off his jacket, takes off his Waiters.

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Speaker 1: Was in an absolute panic, and Winchester says he was

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Speaker 1: driving the boat, didn't know what else to do, and

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Speaker 1: then ends up shooting his best friend. Winchester then allegedly

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Speaker 1: dragged his friend's body to the shore put him in

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Speaker 1: the back of his Chevrolet Suburban. He then pushed Mike's

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Speaker 1: boat back out into the water and headed back to

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Speaker 1: his house, where his wife Kathy was still asleep. Kathy,

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Speaker 1: of course, knows nothing about any of this, and Winchester

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Speaker 1: says he got undressed, got back into bed, and pretended

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Speaker 1: that he just woke up as usual. It's not all

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Speaker 1: as it seems. I want you to listen to high

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Speaker 1: school friend Brian Winchester. We launched the boat. It was

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Speaker 1: just like a hunting trip was supposed to be. The

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Speaker 1: plan that was discussed and come up with was that

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Speaker 1: he was going to be wearing waiters, and leaf was

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Speaker 1: somebody falls in the water with waiters, you're going down.

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Speaker 1: So we went out like we were going honey. We

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Speaker 1: got to the area where his waiters and jacket were found.

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Speaker 1: I got him to stand up and I pushed him

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Speaker 1: into the water. You are hearing a long time high

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Speaker 1: school friend, Brian Winchester describing breaking down crying he put

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Speaker 1: his friend from high school into the muddy waters of

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Speaker 1: Lake Seminole Ashley Wolcott. I mean, from the very beginning

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Speaker 1: his story didn't make sense to me, but to push

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Speaker 1: somebody into the water. But you know what, Ashley hold on.

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Speaker 1: I want you to hear this. He got his jacket

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Speaker 1: off and his waiters off, and he was in a panic.

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Speaker 1: Obviously I was in a panic. I was driving the

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Speaker 1: boat and I didn't I didn't know what to do,

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Speaker 1: and I ended up shooting him. I ended up shooting him.

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Speaker 1: To Ashley Wilcot, judge lawyer or at Ashley Wilcott dot

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Speaker 1: com Ashley Wilcott, it's like he didn't do it himself. Well,

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Speaker 1: I ended up and I've seen that so many times

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Speaker 1: when defendants gives statements or they're you know, stupid enough

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Speaker 1: to take the stand where they just going the gum

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Speaker 1: went off, No, you pull the trigger. What happened, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: is he tricks his friend Mike Williams into standing up

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Speaker 1: in the boat. Okay, the little skiff. When he stands up,

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Speaker 1: he pushes him in. The guy can swim. He's an athlete,

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Speaker 1: all right, remember captain of the football team, Hunter Fisher.

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Speaker 1: The works. The guy swims to a swamp, a stump

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Speaker 1: or something in the water, and he's not dead, he's

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Speaker 1: not drowning, even with the waiters on. He gets his

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Speaker 1: jacket off, he gets his waiters off. So what does

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Speaker 1: Winchester do. He starts circling him in the boat. So

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Speaker 1: can you and that imagine Mike Williams clinging to a

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Speaker 1: stump in the middle of Lake Seminole and his best

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Speaker 1: friend is circling him in the water and finally gets

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Speaker 1: close enough and shoots him multiple times. That's what happened, Ashley.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what happened, Nancy, And that's horrific. And think

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Speaker 1: about this. There's also testimony by Mike that he had

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Speaker 1: to take time to load his gun, stood up by Mike,

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Speaker 1: I apologized by Brian Winchester. So Mike's in the water,

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Speaker 1: really literally hanging on to life on a tree, and

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Speaker 1: he has to watch his quote unquote friend load his

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Speaker 1: gun to circle around to then shoot him. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists, this is not

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Speaker 1: a stranger on stranger attack. This is his high school friend.

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Speaker 1: They're grown now, they're both married with families, and his

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Speaker 1: high school friend, his best friend for twenty years, shoots

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Speaker 1: him dead. Well, how does that happen? You know, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know how he could have

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Speaker 1: thought he was going to get away with this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's just a you know, there's like a lot. It's

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Speaker 1: like a trail of red crumbs. Given these connections of

423
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: all these people, it just seems silly to me that

424
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: they thought the story would be plausible at you know,

425
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: when you when you get right down to it, though,

426
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: doctor Bober, I've been asked so many times about motive.

427
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: The state of course doesn't have to prove motive for murderer,

428
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: but it always boils down. Aren't money, sex, slash love, revenge? Anger?

429
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: It's it's always one of those four. I mean, it's

430
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: got to be one of those four. Doctor Bober agree

431
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: or disagree, No, I totally agree. I think that that

432
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: pretty much encompasses all the all the motivation. Take a

433
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at forty eight hours, seventeen and

434
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: a half years. We have always talked about Mike Williams

435
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: being missing, not ever finding his body, not ever having

436
00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: resolution was very difficult. He was going to wake up

437
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: early and go duck hunt. He was a big duck hunter,

438
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: and so we went off to the lake and then

439
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: he ever came back. Mike Williams was a straight shooter.

440
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: He loved his family, he loved his wife. He put

441
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: her on a pedestal. I did everything that she wanted done.

442
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: Denise said, jump Mike one and out how high they

443
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: were going to be celebrating their winning anniversary. And so

444
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: when he did not come home about noon when he

445
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: was supposed to, Denise started getting worried and started calling around.

446
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: This search was the most ever seen. Law enforcement and

447
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: friends and family combing the lake looking for me. They

448
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: found the boat, his truck, the trailer. That was all there.

449
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: I got up in the helicopter and flew around and

450
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: looked for his body. And one of the things that

451
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: I noticed there were no less than fifteen to twenty

452
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: very large alligators swimming all around this area. The governor

453
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: a letter every day for nine years. She was absolutely

454
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 1: possessed with finding this out. What had happened to mine?

455
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: And your God ChEls me on my haunt about childish jake,

456
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: I cannot give us looking sly, she wasn't more quit

457
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: until she had a body. He didn't just fall out

458
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: of the boat. This wasn't just a honey accident. This

459
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: man was murdered, and they blamed it on alligators for

460
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: seventeen years. Many a murder has been blamed on an alligator.

461
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: But that's exactly what did not happen in this case.

462
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, what we learned was happening

463
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: is that after many, many double dates together, Brian Winchester

464
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: falls in love with Mike Williams's wife, Denise Williams, and

465
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: on one of their double dates, they start kissing after

466
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: a discussion about six Wow, what a surprise. So now

467
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: we see it's not an alligator wanting a snack, it's

468
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: a love triangle. Ashley Wilcott absolutely love triangle. Not only that,

469
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: but it comes out they were having an affair before

470
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: they before the victim was shot in the face of murder.

471
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, they go on and they

472
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: marry John Limley. How long after Mike Williams is shot

473
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: dead do the two mary? It was just a year

474
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: and a half before they married. The years dragged on,

475
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: it looked like the mystery of what happened to Mike

476
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: Williams might never be solved. Yes, that's what's gonna be here.

477
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: This isn't This one's not bad. I mean, I went

478
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: a joke around the newsroom that you know, they'd have

479
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: to drag manut of the old lady reporter nursing home

480
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: when they finally found Mike Williams. I never thought that

481
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: they would ever know anything about what happened to him.

482
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: If Brian and Denise knew anything about Mike's disappearance, they

483
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: weren't talking and no one could make them. By Florida law,

484
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: as long as they stayed married, neither could be forced

485
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: to testify against the other. With Brian and Denise being married,

486
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: you were how are you ever going to get the truth?

487
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: Because one is not going to turn on the other.

488
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: But behind the scenes, Denise and Brian's marriage was disintegrating. Wow,

489
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: can you imagine that? So Mike Williams is gunned down

490
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: his widow, Denise Williams against that life insurance policy over

491
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: a million dollars and marries the high school best friend,

492
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: Brian Winchester. You know, are you surprised, Ashley that over

493
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: as time passes the two started hating each other, the

494
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: high school friend and the widow who are now married

495
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: and joined at the hip and bound together by murders. No,

496
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: I'm not at all surprised. There are such a concoluted

497
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: web as you already alluded to. Oh the tangle where

498
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: we weave, and it was there were multiple affairs by

499
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: different partners in these two men marriages that led to this.

500
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: And Nancy, let me add this to your little food

501
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: for thought. There were three life insurance policies that amounted

502
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: to one point seventy five million dollars, and guests who

503
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: wrote put together two of those policies. You got it,

504
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: Brian Winchester. Okay, So John Lumley and investigative reporter Crime

505
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: online dot Com. The two wouldn't talk. How was the

506
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: case cracked? Well, a story emerges of Brian actually kidnapping Denise.

507
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: This is such a bizarre twist to the story. Denise

508
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: and Brian separated in twenty twelve, reportedly due to his

509
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: sex addiction. She filed for divorce in twenty fifteen. So

510
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: he's a killer and he has a sex addiction. Absolutely, okay,

511
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: go ahead. Denise tells the Leon County Sheriff's Office that

512
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: on an August afternoon, the day when the appraisal of

513
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: their home had been filed with court, she left her

514
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: house to drive to her job at Florida State University.

515
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: While she's on the phone with her sister, she sees

516
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: someone climb over the back of her car, and it

517
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: turned out to be Brian. He takes her phone away

518
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: begins yelling directions to her. She didn't comply until he

519
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: shows a gun. She said later that he claimed that

520
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: this was necessary since she was not taking his calls

521
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: and was blocking his text messages. Well, and the whole

522
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: time she knows he's already killed. Once listen to Denise

523
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: Williams in her own words, he's raining and I'm just

524
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: like shaking, and he saw that people are going to notice.

525
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: Denise reported her kidnapping to the Leon County Sheriff's office.

526
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 1: I was like, are you planning on you know, any

527
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: both of our lives? Say, well, mine, I'm plaining online.

528
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: And then he would say I want to kill us.

529
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: He must have said a many times, I want to

530
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: kill myself. Brian Winchester was soon arrested and charged with

531
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: the kidnapping and aggravated assault of his wife. I was

532
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: just kind of agreeing with whatever he was saying, and

533
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: I was like, I know that you love me. Police

534
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: quickly realized that the rift and Denise in Brian's marriage

535
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: presented an opportunity. Word travels fast in law enforcement circles

536
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: and they recognized it for what it was. This was

537
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: a huge break in the Mike Williams case, and a

538
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: break it was so after she then Karen Smith goes

539
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: to police saying she's being kidnapped. I guess she had

540
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: no idea that everything she was saying was breaking the

541
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: husband wife privilege. But how can you back up her story?

542
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: That's a really good question other than words at this point,

543
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,479
Speaker 1: because they don't have forensics, they don't have the gun.

544
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: All they have is what Denise's telling police at this point.

545
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: So John Limley after she goes in on the kidnap

546
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 1: do the alleged kidnap? How did they get the truth

547
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: out of her? Well, the case really, as you mentioned,

548
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: really cracked open with this break in their bond, the

549
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: marriage bond legal and he began to tell investigators details

550
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: as well. This is during the investigation of the kidnapping

551
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: and in December twenty seventeen, Winchester was sentenced to twenty

552
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: years in prison for the kidnapping. Now, no mention was

553
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: made of the Williams case at Brian Winchester's sentencing. However,

554
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: there was some sort of deal that was reached that

555
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: would reduce his sentence for information in the case, specifically

556
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: what happened and where the well hold on. Let's go

557
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: to ask you Willcott, judge and lawyer. Didn't he get immunity?

558
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: He sure did, Nancy, He did get immunity, and they

559
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 1: took life in prison off the table for the kidnapping charge.

560
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: He got both. So how long is he's the sugar man?

561
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: So in order to testify against his new wife, Mike

562
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: William's widow, how much time is he going to get?

563
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: He gets none for killing He got immunity, so he

564
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: gets none for killing. Now, the only caveat is they said,

565
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: if there's any new evidence discovered outside of your version

566
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: of what happened, we could prosecute on the new evidence.

567
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: But he told the whole shebang, the whole story, so

568
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine that happening. So on twenty years, we'll

569
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: probably do about ten. Yes, okay man, you're not kidding.

570
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 1: A kidnapping, a murder, a cold blooded murder, and bombshell.

571
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: Right now, in the last hours, the trial of Denise

572
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: Williams has just ended. The jury has just returned a

573
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: verdict guilty on all counts. This would never have broken

574
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: open if it had not been from Mike William's mother,

575
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: A mother's love, strongest power on Earth. Nancy Grace Crime

576
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: Story signing off, Goodbye friend,