1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to steph you missed in history class from how 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Crazy B. Wilson, and today 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: we have an author interview for you, and it's one 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: that I'm really delighted to share with our listeners because 6 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: as I read rinker bucks new book, The Oregon Trail, 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: I got more and more excited about speaking with him. 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: He is a really compelling writer and he has this 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: personality that just shines through in the pages of his work. 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: In this book, Buck talks about a long journey that 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: he and his brother Nick took by mule pold covered wagon, 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: and they retrace the steps of the pioneers who traveled 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: from Missouri to Oregon. So, as you can imagine, the 14 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: kind of person who thinks that would be a fun 15 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: thing to do is quite interesting. So we're going to 16 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: jump in, and before we start, I want to make 17 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: a quick note of the sound quality on this one 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: is not ideal. Awesome Producer Nolan I and Rinkerbuck, we're 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: kind of calling each other back and forth trying to 20 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: get a good connection, and we had some trouble, so, uh, 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: bear with us. It's not as perfect and christmin clear 22 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: as we like, but oh man, he says some fantastic stuff. 23 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy it, and we're gonna hop 24 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: right in. Okay. So, first, we are so excited to 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: have rincer Buck on the show because you are a 26 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: history lover, so this is like an extra treat for us. Um, 27 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: And I first want to jump right into your new book, 28 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: The Oregon Trail and some of the stuff in it. 29 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: But because I know that you are a very erudite 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: man with a lot of history knowledge in your noggin, 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, feel free to go down whatever path you like. Um. 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: One of the first things that I wanted to talk 33 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: to you about. It's really not a particularly important part 34 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: of the book, but I found it so charming. There's 35 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: a phrase that comes up early in the book to 36 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: describe having an adventure, and it's seeing the elephant. And 37 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit about the etymology of 38 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: that incredibly charming phrase. Yeah, it is. It is a 39 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: great phrase, and it's interesting because in the nineteenth century, 40 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: if you asked what that was, everyone would have known. 41 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: So it's a colloquialism that we've lost, but everyone would 42 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: have known, but also the meaning of the term changed 43 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: over time. So seeing the elephant, we're not positive about 44 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: the etymology, but we think it derives from living in 45 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: rural areas of the country and lonely frontier areas because 46 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: remember by the eighteen thirties Ohio and in beyond on Michigan, 47 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: places like that which was called the Old Northwest UM 48 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: they were frontier areas and they were reasonably settled, but 49 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: people lived on remote farms, and so it was a 50 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: big treat once the prince once a year, maybe every 51 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: other year, that you would get to go to the surface. 52 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: They were always traveling in still showers and services, and 53 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: even on the Mississippies there were boats supports that went 54 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: down and to go less shipspeare fascinating, but um going 55 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: to see the elephants. But you would get into town 56 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: early when the parade arrived. In the Um surface parade 57 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: arrive and usually the surface wagons would stop a mile 58 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: or two out of town and they'd much all the 59 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: animals everything they had into town to try and attract 60 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: um as big at allience as they can for the 61 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: surface before they put up the tent. So it's going 62 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: to see the elephant was um taking a big, bad 63 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: break from the ali in the bordom of fun life, 64 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: going into town. Let's pick you very far from your 65 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: home at that point and sitting there and seeing elephants. 66 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: Its report was not something that you normally saw, and 67 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: the kids always look for fort to it. So that 68 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: was the meaning. Originally, you're going to sort of taking 69 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: Eventually you're going to see something you've never seen before, 70 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: or have a breaking life and something exciting and actually 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: robbed over time, So the Pioneers, we'll talk about I'm 72 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: going to see the elephant, which means I'm going to 73 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: cross anyway hundred miles from the Missouri River to the 74 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: Columbia River which is six present day stakes and hit 75 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: the Oregon or the California Trail, and over time, because 76 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: so many people about it, cholera and uh. After the 77 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: Civil War there were Indian attacks because they had decided 78 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: to slaughter the bussel up to the area better for farming, 79 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: and that of course sam the Indians hostel Um. They 80 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: were careless and I do mean careless middle forts and 81 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So going to see the elephant 82 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: came to me later in the centuries. Taking a daring 83 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: adventure that was risky and might be more emotionally supportive 84 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: and life changing than safe. So someone's going to see 85 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: the elephant and sort of happening into the wilderness, and 86 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: it could be any wilderness. You might be trying to 87 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: see the office because you've decided to do something crazy 88 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: that your family doesn't expect you to do, like becoming 89 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: a minister or something so implied a journey of many 90 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: different kinds of particularly of a philosophical or psychological one, 91 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: and you decided and it became the tale that's told 92 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: in your new book to go see the Elephant in 93 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: the form of taking on the Oregon Trail. And the 94 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: last documented crossing of the Oregon Trail before yours was 95 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: more than a hundred years ago in nineteen o nine. 96 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: And of course it's changed a great deal in the 97 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: last century. So there is really not a guide book 98 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: to tell you how to do this. And I know 99 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: you had to figure out a lot as you win. 100 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: So what sorts of changes do you did you have 101 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: to make to your game plan along the way? Sure, Well, 102 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: one thing, let me just make clear, because people have 103 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: written in the Amazon and everything. He said, Well, nine, 104 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: there's a sasttennial crossing of the Oregon Trail. A uh um, 105 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: that to me, those stunt counts, and he said, maybe 106 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: only on a sister pressing. There have been very few 107 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: crossings of the whole trail. But what people are generally 108 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: referring to is you can pay a thousand dollars and 109 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: go out and tay Wyoming Outsidre and he'll take you 110 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: out for that. Canaser's team miles on the trail all 111 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: day and you have this very rugged pioneer experience in 112 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: a covered wagon with horses, which in the nineties century 113 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: and nobody use horses. They use fules for oxen. And 114 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: then the night you gather around and they roll in 115 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: the all gates and you can take a nice shower 116 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: and maybe sweeping an act of the zoom, and the 117 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: meals are catered and and all those kind of things. 118 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: And we didn't do that. I didn't want to have 119 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: anything to do with that kind of Ironically, they call 120 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: themselves reenactors, but they're not reenactors. Um. So we designed 121 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: a truck cluff that went along with us. Um. It's 122 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: like a commissary part of tow part that we could 123 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: behind the wagon. They have you build, you just carry 124 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: it up fifty hundred to two thousand towns of surprise, hunting, 125 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: gowns of water and all this stuff. That we were independent, 126 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: We were free of motorized support. So and they're certainly 127 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: with the only ones that done not in a hundred years. 128 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: So the kinds of changes that had to make the 129 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: trail is twenty one dred moles all the way out 130 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: to Oregon, mostly across nearly dry country and high digets 131 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: is Wyoming and Idaho, and that's just thing. So the 132 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: kind of change um And and about a thousand miles 133 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: of the trail is now small two lane black tops, 134 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: uh farming country roads and then another thousand miles of 135 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: ruts and occasionally especially in eastern um Nebraska and eastern 136 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: mail And occasionally you do go to small farming towns 137 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. So we had a rear 138 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: view of hear, we had led safety lights, we had 139 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: that orange triangular thing that you see on the back 140 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: of tractors. To Warren chest and the guy that made 141 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: our truck up and restart our wagon because we did 142 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: pick the strip in it actually nights and sence we 143 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: Peter shutlow wagon um he was playing, and it was like, well, 144 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: those are period details, and nobody cussed the planes and 145 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: we were real new and we were making a modern 146 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: pressing what is the trail today and what is the 147 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: history of the trail? And he didn't have any you know, 148 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: And they said, well, where's your period trast where's your 149 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: period chest? And I don't want to I don't want 150 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: to tell you the answer that maya I sort of 151 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: profane and sarcastic. Younger brother gave to that when they 152 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: asked him were his tiord tests? But um and so yeah, 153 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: we just went around the corner and we went like 154 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: five miles up the road and pulled us the side 155 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: and put out our tool kit and put on our 156 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: real ears and our r D rights and anything like that. 157 00:08:54,880 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: So there's safety things like that. Um uh. One thing 158 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: that was very important, and what I explained in the 159 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: book is it's something called a ton reliever, the tongue 160 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: being a very heavy pro in the front of the 161 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: wagon that hangs off the collars of the mules. And 162 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: in the next two essentially you can hardly ever see 163 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: a picture of a diagram of a wagon at office 164 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: screen and chain device that comes down from the wagon 165 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: and holds the polar because the way that poll all 166 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: day on the mules, um retire out the shoulders and 167 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: give them shoulder source quicker than uh that their legs 168 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: with the entire out from all the distance you're gone. 169 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: And nobody knew how to build one. Nobody nobody do Uh. 170 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: I've seen a picture of wine. I've seen an actual 171 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: one on a wagon in the Smithsonian Institution once. So 172 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: it just did it for memory, and it was it 173 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: was something that made our trip possible, um, because we 174 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: got the way of that pro offten Wulf and so 175 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: they were all kinds of little mobs like that. One 176 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: other chance I'll play about just because it's funny, we 177 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: end up not using We had no technology and the 178 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: half the time you don't uh, you don't need tps 179 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: if you're moving in four miles from how and but flashlight, 180 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: cold and land, any kind of artificial feel like that. 181 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: We had. The wagon just tweats and groans. There's no 182 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,599 Speaker 1: springs on it. Everything breaks the doctor source for the 183 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: first couple of weeks until les muscles it took up 184 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: and so even a flashlight wouldn't work there a couple 185 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: of days. So um, we just started living. Um sent 186 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: up to sundown, Yeah, and that light in the morning 187 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: what they probably woke up and Higston news, Neil breakfast 188 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: and hump Boston. When we got the air of seven 189 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: Ponti the at night, UM some sort of tense to 190 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: be a little later out west in those northern UM 191 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: two attitudes so um, and it looked like since that 192 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: was got on our way and he came and weston 193 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: news and stuff like that, so we moved closer to 194 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: kind of changes we didn't. He didn't. You didn't live 195 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: with particularly light, and we won't. I'm I'm just thinking 196 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: about how much I realized that the world is completely different, 197 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: like if we lose power and I don't have light. 198 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: So it's uh fascinating to think about, like where you 199 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: just reach a point of that's fine, no light is okay, 200 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: we can keep going. Yeah, I'm independent of all that stuff. 201 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: Not feel like I've been blow. I can easily imagine 202 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: what Rinker's brother Nick said when he was asked about 203 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: where his period dress was. Um, but Tracy, do you 204 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: think you could possibly go for several months traveling across 205 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: country without any of the niceties and without any of 206 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: your technology that actually sounds really liberating. It sounds terrifying 207 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: to me. Nobody could email me, I will see this. 208 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: That's kind of what I like about when I do 209 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: things like go deep sea fishing with my dad, is 210 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: that there's no connectivity, but it's only for a day. Yeah. 211 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: The vacation that I took at the beginning of this year, 212 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: I intentionally had no Internet at all, and I did 213 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: not I didn't connect to the outside world and anyway. 214 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: But I have lots of other niceties. So it's it's 215 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: the it's the being disconnected from things that sounds liberating. 216 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: I probably would be. I would get very tired of 217 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: cooking over a fire after a while. Yeah, I think 218 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: I'm such an information junkie. I can't kind of go 219 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: without being able to look something up when it occurs 220 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: to me. But before we get to this next bit 221 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 1: of our interview with rinker Buck, let's pause for a 222 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: quick word from one of the great sponsors that keeps 223 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: us going. Now we will pick up with our interview 224 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: with rinker Buck, and we're going to talk in this 225 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: next segment about all the supplies that got loaded into 226 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: their wagon. Initially, I know you had packed a lot 227 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: of supplies that you ended up deeming unnecessary and kind 228 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: of ditching along the way, just as the pioneers that 229 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: were doing this trail in the eight hundreds often found 230 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: that they had things that they could not keep carrying 231 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: with them. And I know you have mentioned that in 232 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: some areas where the trail is still remote and largely 233 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: unchanged over the years, you sometimes are following a debris trail. 234 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: And I think I heard you mentioned in one interview 235 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: that you had seen like a piano on the trail, 236 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering what the sort of most odd 237 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: or surprising thing you saw out there was. Well, first 238 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: of all, I thought that I was pitching their nite 239 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: and smart guy, and I read all these books first, 240 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: and read all the pioneer journals, and they talk a 241 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: lot about how they overload the wagons. One reason they 242 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: over a litted their wagons is that the os and 243 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: the merchants into jumping off towns along them as a river. 244 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: Um would use a lot of scare tactics to tell people, 245 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, you better, you better take at least one 246 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: big battle of bacon for each kid, you know, and 247 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: the kids are gonna get to arting, you know, like 248 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: looking like baby shoey, you know. But um so I 249 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: then made this same mistake. And there was a funny 250 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: passage in the book where I talked about, you know, 251 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: waking up the first morning after you're traveling and realizing 252 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: I had way too much here and um you know 253 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: probably I mean just kind of give me a break here. 254 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: It was. It was pretty touching it. I thought that 255 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: I needed a shoeshine, carre In and my books brothers Bass, 256 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: so you know, to leave. Well, you were going to 257 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: continue a gentlemanly life even on the road, roughing it. 258 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: I can't respect that. I think what it was, Yeah, yeah, 259 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: I think what it was is I was I wasn't 260 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: put a plan area and I was thinking, well, my 261 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: old I'm bringing my own life with you, and then 262 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: you get out there and you know your old life 263 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: has been eradicated, you know. I think new For instance, 264 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: crossing my owning, well you have to pick showers, and 265 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: that's my own license. I think that crossing my own 266 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: and took the twenty nine days the four system up 267 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: is twenty nine days, and most of that was original. 268 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: Rest in the high desert was nothing wrong. It's insist 269 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: miles we did test two towns and UM one town 270 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: had four hundred people in it and the other town 271 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: had three people in it. So what we learned about 272 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: the pioneers, which a seconding is there's still a lot 273 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: of archaeological bigs stuff up there. And it is true 274 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: that the pioneers um could navagate all the way to 275 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: origin by needs and fifties aft of the trail was 276 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: premature just by following with the free pall. It could 277 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: be the carcass system of all the animals from the 278 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: year before and that sort of thing. But there's a 279 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: lot of archaeological picked out there and people going with 280 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: metal detectives and stuff. And there are especially below places 281 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: like Rocky Woods, a big killin item where it was 282 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: really a powerless uh distant down to some touch ring. 283 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: There are places where you can just turn on the 284 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: metal detection now and you're gonna find old wagon Paul, 285 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: the old buckets, old um you know, AMA belts and 286 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: stuff like that. So UM, you know, hiring fifty years later, 287 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: you're still in the dry climber quick, You're still finding 288 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: the moment of the original climbers. That's so amazing, UM, 289 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: And you originally intended to take this trip solo, which 290 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: was something that you eventually recognized as delusional, as you 291 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: put it. And then your brother Nick, who is a 292 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: really accomplished mechanic and craftsman of many varieties, insisted on 293 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: joining you. And you yeah, and you said many times 294 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: that you absolutely could not have done this trip without 295 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: your brother. But just as a speculative thing, I wonder 296 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: how far you think you would have gotten had you 297 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: gone on your own to begin with, I think that's 298 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: probably would have gotten about yeah miles three days handling 299 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: these Cantans, knew amazing and hignessing all three of them 300 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: up on my stuff every day. And then there's the 301 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: conclusion that I thought, Ohio a cowboy, um, and now 302 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: I'm had to find somebody out there. I actually I 303 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: was looking to the people, and UM, I think what 304 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: the trip demonstrates this way is that if you take 305 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: a big risk, UM, things do work out. UM. I 306 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: mean I had a lot of planning into it, and 307 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't completely spontaneous about it, but um, thanks just 308 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: for that. My brother had both his foot um in 309 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: a construction accident name was supposed to be incorporating, but 310 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: he told the doctor, UM, I'll take a little trip 311 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: out west with my brother, would that be all right? 312 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: And you know they signed off all its forms at 313 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: the Dietoris administration. But no, without him, I never would 314 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: have made it. And it just shows you. I think 315 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: the first line of the book, the first line of 316 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: the book is to the effect that naive k is 317 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: the mother of a denture. And if you're not naive, 318 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: if you're not willing to realize that most of what 319 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: you need to know you're gonna learn once you get 320 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: out there, you'll never take these trips. So I was 321 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: very lucky that my brother heard I was going and 322 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: and said uncommon, you know, So he kind of saved 323 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: me that way. Uh. And there's this juxtaposition throughout the 324 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: book of the historical and the modern that plays out 325 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: in a number of ways. But one of the major 326 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: ways that really struck me is is what we've been 327 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: talking about that some on some areas of your journey, 328 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,239 Speaker 1: you're traveling basically on interstate, and on others you are 329 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: on the original ruts that have been there since this 330 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, whatever part of the trailer you were on 331 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: was forged. And I know you have great knowledge of history, 332 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: um and of those that traveled these trails before you. 333 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: But as you were forced to figure out ways to 334 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: navigate both the old and the new along the way, 335 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: did you get a new sense or a new appreciation 336 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: for the pioneers that originally traveled along these routes. Sure, 337 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: most of the wagon chains had experienced UM wagon packs 338 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: a lawn, there were a lot of The organ trail 339 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: was actually the old search After that the search apter 340 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: saw west up into the Rockies into the gate Bover 341 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: country UM after the Lewis and Clark expedition and the 342 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: Louisiana purchase UM. So they had the advantage and and 343 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: a lot of those foot trappers became wagon masters because 344 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: they this very organic thing, and they led the pioneers 345 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: across the dignity the Mormons who were the most organized 346 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: on the trail UM because they seven thousand Mormons crossed 347 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: between eighteen seven and roughly eighteen seven and eighteen Mosy, 348 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: and they because they were precious back in the Midwest 349 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: where they had lived at the time, and they they 350 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: were the only group to have organized UM actual professional 351 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: wagon masters, and they were sent back east every every 352 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: year after the Black and Train started, So Lake and 353 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: all the wagon masters would made uh sort of a 354 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: parallelous late fall crossing the snow and that's same thing, 355 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: UH to get back east so that they could leave 356 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: the next train the next time. So they actually had 357 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: pretty good guides, UM, and we didn't. We didn't have that. 358 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of places where the trail is 359 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: marked or mark curley, but it's marking such a way 360 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: that grant or um battle markets are ways hidden up 361 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: in the worlderness up in the foothills. Well, I had 362 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: to walk ahead of the wagon a lot, and UH, 363 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: I estimate that I walked at least seven hild miles 364 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: the trail to stuff as are is the other hazards 365 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: that we faced, UM was that UM in a couple 366 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: of places we actually we have our interstates. We were 367 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: always um, you know, stay the tunny roads doing black ups, 368 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: but they like right along the old Rust's pretty much 369 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: power to them. But a couple of points when the 370 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: interstates came to like twenty five, which is the main 371 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: northwest street from Texas to Montana, that's blocked away and 372 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: uh Wyoming and Mooving four and U or eighty six 373 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: in Idaho, Oregon, and so I had to discover roots 374 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: around that while still staying on the trail. Unfortunately, and 375 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: this is expling book. Unfortunately, there were the very areas 376 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: where um they were cut offs, alternate roots. There were 377 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: forty major colorff of the trail. The pioneers kept experimenting 378 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: was slightly put the ways to get there, whether training, 379 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,239 Speaker 1: get a terrain or the rivers that overflowed that year. 380 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: So they went a slightly different way and explainstance in 381 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: wayoming when we brought the highway finished the point fry 382 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: uh I had read about the childhood and a couple 383 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: of ranches, and they told me, so this took the 384 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: child'shoods the new thanks too, and here's how you get 385 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: up there, and that we just took her life headed 386 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: up into the rolling instance, you know, four years later 387 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: and you know they use all the standard things in navigation, 388 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: calling higher memorial, take a compass, staring on the cli 389 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: really and then just follow that gun down below to 390 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: see whis been planning and right place. So all the 391 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: um ultimately to call us I knew about them. I 392 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: personally cannot imagine, even for a minute, trying to find 393 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: my way in the situations that Rinker and his brother 394 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: were navigating. We're gonna hear a lot about mules in 395 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: the next segment that comes up. But before we get 396 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: to that, Tracy would do like to have another word 397 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: from one of the great sponsors that keeps this show going. Yes, please, 398 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: as promised, it is time to talk about some mules. 399 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: Rincer devotes a lot of space in the early part 400 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: of his book talking about mules in the United States history, 401 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: and it's something he knows loads about. You think I 402 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: was something of a mule advocate in this book? Do 403 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: you give a really impressive history of the mule in 404 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: the US as both an ecademic driver and as a 405 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: largely misunderstood animal. Will you talk to us a little 406 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: bit about their ties to George Washington in their place 407 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: in the early financial landscape of America? Sure? I love 408 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: like this is to give you an opportunity to readvisit 409 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: a stuff that when they finished the chapter, readers got wow. 410 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, but I sort of should have 411 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: known that. And so with the mule was interesting? Is 412 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: the plateful economics of the globe at the time very interesting? 413 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: We really needed mules um ready h turn of the 414 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, because we are now consing the allogames and 415 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: that first transapolation pushed into Ohio Illinoian and playing them 416 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: go into the Rockies. Um, and we we didn't have 417 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: them for a good NEAs and horses. It's just not 418 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: as reliable. The hos line is good and lucky terrain, 419 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: they hire more easily, etcetera. They don't have that enough 420 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: of that shill genetic makeup that you get from the 421 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: borough side of a mule. So what had happened was 422 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: we always known in the Europeans had these great draft 423 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: mules with Jackson being a big the animal made from 424 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: the desire would be a man of jack And we 425 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: moved the European tabn but talk until the Revolutionary War. 426 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: The Spanish and the French, who were the main breeders 427 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: of these big animals, would not allow them into the 428 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: United States, into the colonies, the English colonies, because they've 429 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: been warring forever with they've written and they didn't didn't 430 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: want to help the British colony. As soon as George 431 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: Washington had been successful at houstain the British from the 432 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: United States, Um, the King of Spain and uh Macyette, 433 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: um the big Ally of Washington, essential Ally of Washington 434 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: to the Revolution, Spain and France were sent Sepho breeding stock. Um, 435 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: the one that came from Francis Club Law gifts and 436 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: the one that came from Um. Actually the all gifts 437 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: came from Spain, and then uh multis Jack came from 438 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: from France. And that was the initial breeding stock that 439 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: was sent directly to George Washington, who've had a lot 440 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: of loan in the West the Mud. He's gonna need 441 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: the European style mules to us to develop that property 442 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: and to get to that property. And George Washington again 443 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: began the first meeting farm the mules in Martha. But 444 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: the currently died. There was sixty working mules on mountain 445 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: burning alone, and he was turning his fires around to 446 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 1: the man of jack that are bret to a female horse. Well, 447 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: they're kind of the unsung heroes of American history. Like 448 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: you don't hear about the great mules that helped build 449 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: the country, but they really did. Um yeah, um, they 450 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: were here. And my book is about a lile on 451 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: pump here. But Cross just a whitman who was to 452 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: um the angels to first plus the trail in eighteen 453 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: six and sent back these when it was very daring 454 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: and interested do so. And there's a lot of prejudice 455 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: against it because the West was not considered a safe 456 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: place for a white woman. Um, because it was Indian 457 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: country and the great American desert and so forth. Um. 458 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: And she walked back to the series of layers that 459 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: convinced the Americans that it would be safe for women 460 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: and children to cross the trail. She really opened up 461 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: the trail. She's completely forgotten today. So my resits by 462 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,959 Speaker 1: walking out on the trail and reading all the primary 463 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: sources and then actually crossing it by wagon, you really 464 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: learned how arduous was to get these wagons up and 465 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: down the mountains and so forth. Um reveals a lot 466 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: of them from here. It's just it's just sad you 467 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: want to history that we've never confirmed that we don't 468 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: see anymore. Um be could it's not to kind of 469 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: sense in history class? I guess, well, yeah. And I 470 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: really love that there are many places in the book 471 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: where you really break down some of the incorrect myths 472 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: that have circulated for years, As you mentioned, Um nursiss 473 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: a Whitman. I love that whole section. You break down 474 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: the myth of the mule being obstinate, and ordinary creature. 475 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: You talked about how the Native Americans really were quite 476 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: cooperative for the most part until they realized that they 477 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: were really getting the shaft um right right, Well, there's 478 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: something fascinating about this today mentioned a little bit, but 479 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: it's still have a sub text ons then this is 480 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: really fascinated today. Well studied just to you a like 481 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: kind of become a writer instead of getting more history. 482 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: But one things that historians to Pistorians if they still 483 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: have a big advance, big personality approach to history. So 484 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: if you want to understand Americic expansion west work, know, 485 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: you read a book like the Mantos Decisions, Your Decision 486 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: they six and it's all about Thomas part that and 487 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: the forces in Congress and the politics and the Pierced 488 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: administration and the Buchanan administration and so forth and the 489 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: events big guy. But what historians don't do is they 490 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: don't go back and look chiefly, and they don't. It's 491 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that gives them academic freshpiche 492 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: to look at, well, how did people live? You know, 493 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: if you're getting across the Chail and you get to 494 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: Missouri and you know, um, more than ten thousand people 495 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: on a cross that year, and every one of them 496 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: crossed with me mules that we're not properly trained, and 497 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: they were. They should be pleased by the new brokers 498 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: at Missouri. Um, what did that do to life? You know, 499 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: what was your life like on the trail when you 500 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:03,719 Speaker 1: were exposed to an almost daily scramble for water, et cetera. Um. 501 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: And that's the kind of thing that interests me. And 502 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: when I get into in the book, it's like, forget 503 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: it off the politics and you know, the biggest picture 504 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: and howe moral fun people the Exican American world, which 505 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: took so much of this can't play. Um. I think 506 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: about that full moment. How did people actually live accomplishing 507 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: this two thousand track plus the country And to me, 508 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,239 Speaker 1: that's a lot more imputant stuff sometimes than the than 509 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: the big picture in the big politits. Yeah, I mean 510 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: that's the kind of stuff we love to talk about 511 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: as well. It's like it's it's easy to see the 512 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: big broad strokes and the the sort of catalyst that 513 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: happened on the world stage, but at the same time 514 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: you cannot lose sight of the fact that there are living, 515 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: breathing people in the trenches so to speak, that never 516 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: get any recognition, but they're really the ones that we're 517 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: making history. Um. So I love that you touch on 518 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: that a little um, one little thing stuff the wind. 519 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: You know, the way we live today is we moved 520 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: from way over built their condition eagerly to the next 521 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: you know, you get out of their condition car and 522 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: you go into an air condition to ari m and 523 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: then and now you go home to Yes, it's place 524 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: that has all these worrying little motors that that solve 525 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: all your problems. And you're kind of alienated from nature. 526 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: And even if you kept torn ao or something um 527 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: most of your life, you're you're protected, you isolated, your 528 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 1: hermetically feeled from the real forces of nature. And then 529 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: you get into come the wagon, and as soon as 530 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: you get west of the Middle Nebraska, the wind is 531 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: going at three five three miles to day, thy fidells 532 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: now um all day and you completely lost the DNA. 533 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: Who's completely lost the memory of how exhausting it is 534 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: to sit on a wagon, see the exposed to this thing. 535 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: And it's always right in your face that the west 536 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: we windhting how its how even can be, just how 537 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: we wind all day. And this trip was, as you 538 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, arduous. It was incredibly ambitious and you had 539 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: a lot of challenges along the way. But one episode 540 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: that I found so affecting was the struggle to get 541 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: the mule team in the wagon up California Hill in Nebraska. 542 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: And so for our listeners, that's a climb of about 543 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: two ft of the course of a mile and a 544 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: half and your brother Nick made the case that you 545 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: should take this route rather than an eight mile detour 546 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: around it. Can you talk to us a little bit 547 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: about how that challenge played out, because it really was 548 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: like I got goose bumps reading that. I was so 549 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: terrified for all of you. Um, it's amazing. What happened 550 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: was so we got there and Calciorny Hills when he 551 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: was very important choke point of the trail was plineers 552 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: at that point have to make a near bu the 553 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: black guy and the planeers has to make a transition 554 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: formal never jines the little bottom line that the south 555 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: plot to the north pot across the very high plateau 556 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: is the only country the rest of the very raisine. 557 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: And to reach that plateau there's just a single hill 558 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: which got the name California Hill because you had to 559 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: confident Disco killed to make it to California. He followed 560 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: the Oregon Trail to the California Trail. The um we 561 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: get there, explaining to Nick, you know this places. There's 562 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: these hundreds of wagons day day during sumil. The plane 563 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: eas and blah blah blah, and there's a big plot 564 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: there anything. And Nick looks up at the hill and 565 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: he goes, if I can put him, I can put 566 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: these mules up that hill. And I'm going, Nick, na glory, 567 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: come on the Firehu. So it's not, and he's calling me, 568 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: you know this is a podcast while seeing the stec 569 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: us a probably only coming phrases for being a grown man, 570 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: uh kind of thing that guys used and uh. But 571 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: finally I learned and I say, okay, it was just 572 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: this a tidal model of the trip. I went off 573 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: on my own scary at horizon and my conclusion was, well, 574 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: I wouldn't even be this fars it wasn't for my 575 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: brother Nick, So I better trust him. So let me 576 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: go back and climb the first hill. And this is 577 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: what you learn about the West from the base terrain. 578 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: Down below, you see the first hill and then you 579 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: get up there and there's two more really steeper, much 580 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: steeper hill. And so we got to the top and 581 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: even Nick was doing Jesus yeah, but he still insisted 582 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: that he could get the mules up there, and there 583 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: was no turning back now because the trail is too 584 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: now or turn the wagon around on. So Nick just conto, Nick, 585 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put these mules on that hill. Don't work 586 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: at the night age. And when we get into camp 587 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: tonight and they go, yeah, yeah, Nick, what you can 588 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: take your medication. Okay, But it was really rough. We 589 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: we were kind of the mules are straining. It was 590 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: huge embedded tum believed the rotten tumb believe that they 591 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: had to stumble too. And you literally reached the top 592 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: just moving an inch of the time. And I was 593 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to so the break on 594 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: it if the meles gave up and couldn't get up, 595 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: and prevent the wagons from sliding backwards and pulling the 596 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: news on top of this. So um, yeah, it was 597 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: if you had two stumps just reading it, you can imagine. 598 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: But we both got to the top with the daily breezy, 599 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: so christ the mules is easy too, that we were 600 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: just so um overstimuli. Of course. Yeah, it's an amazing 601 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: section of the book. I really was so affected by it. 602 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: And then you actually summitted another ridge, Rocky Ridge in Wyoming, 603 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: which you have been told flat out was something you 604 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: were not going to be able to do with a 605 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: mule team. Uh, and you, once again, with Nick's amazing abilities, uh, 606 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: managed to do this undoable thing. How did accomplishing the 607 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: seemingly impossible tasks as part of this journey really affect 608 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: you in the long run and even your relationship with 609 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: your brother? Yeah, we mean it tastes effective relationship with 610 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: my brother, says. I trusted him a lot more and learned. 611 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean I knew he was a great driver, but no, 612 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: I just didn't know he was factually the driver and mules. Um. 613 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: I think the big the big change in me is 614 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: how it affected me is I'm kind of a jeamie guy. 615 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: I don't mind taking on In fact, it think I 616 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: think that issues take on an adventure like this. It's 617 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: not so much for adventure sake, it's for um, what 618 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: are you gonna learn? What are you gonna see? And 619 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: what I learned on this is that um, it's okay 620 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: to be impulsive and and descide to like demanding him 621 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: to right, I'm going to do this no matter what, 622 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,720 Speaker 1: because you can always sit the things that you didn't 623 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: do right the Ministerius that you maybe were constantly rebuilding 624 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: the wagon and doing things for the wagon that we 625 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,240 Speaker 1: didn't think that before we lost. And you can always 626 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: pick a bad decision. You know, we put so much 627 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: stress on our life today, especially there's down millennials. I 628 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: kind of worry about them. You know. It's it's you 629 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: have to met with properly, you have to get the 630 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: right internships, you have to have it all planned out perfectly, 631 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: and you don't really, I mean, you can make make 632 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: post directions as often as you want. So that that 633 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: was the big changrum and take the risk and then 634 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: fitness and stop as you get there. And in fact, 635 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: when we got to Rocky this which just this wall 636 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: of rock that goes up over um Away, only that 637 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: it's very hard to climb with such a staircase of rock. 638 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: It's very hard to climb. With the team mules going 639 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 1: to Roggins, it wasn't actually that difficult. And we met 640 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: some people said there was a Mormon puff over your 641 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: going back up to kind of visit that the pilgrim 642 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: moves to the Shrine of Raptosis, which is where a 643 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: lot of Mormons did and when six since they got 644 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: caught up there in the snow, and they were horsing too, 645 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: and they they're still on either end of the roots 646 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: when we figured out a possibly can make the crust 647 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: these rocks and signing up to keep on the right line. 648 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: And um, and they morning for the police structors. They're strong, 649 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: They're willing to say things that they other they just 650 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: keep going that they wouldn't. But they believed that they 651 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: were angels sent there to help us, and that we 652 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: were angelus sent there to show them that Rotisie really 653 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: had been conquered by a covered wagon. And uh, I didn't. 654 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: I don't pul think that way and believe that way, 655 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,919 Speaker 1: but I did that day. How could you so, Yeah, 656 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: make a decision to do it, and if there's something 657 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: wrong with the decision, you exit later. I love it. 658 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: I think that's good life advice. UM. At the beginning, 659 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 1: the very beginning of the book is you're kind of 660 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: setting up the whole kind of narrative that's going to 661 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: unfold before us. You wrote this one thing that just 662 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: charmed me to pieces, which is that you wrote about 663 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: how you are a history buff and how you quote 664 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: you wrote quote I break by wrote at every historical marker, 665 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: and I just love that, UM. And I know that 666 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: a lot of the markers that you encountered on this 667 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: trip inspired the stories that intertwine with your own in 668 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: the book. And I know that, UM. You know this 669 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: ended up being edited, of course, and I'm wondering if 670 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 1: there were any of these stories that you encountered along 671 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: the way, at these historical markers that ended up edited out, 672 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: edited out of the book, but that you really wish 673 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: you could have kept. In Sure, there was a lot 674 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: of things like that. One one thing in particular that 675 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: I remember was the way you tell where the um 676 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: mark grace to really tell you where the trailers and 677 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: there's a destroying lnging and Randy Brown, who's this amazing 678 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: guy who's basically documented every grade that can be found 679 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: on the Origin trail and getting the book about it. 680 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: I had that book along with me, and because coordinates 681 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: and directions to each face, if you know where the 682 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: grace are, you know where the players were at that time. 683 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: Because they vary a lot. There was a main set 684 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: of rust that they might play to UM to find 685 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: better force for the jacked animals, or to get out 686 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: of the dust of UM the wagon chain ahead of them. 687 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: And if someone died, they tended to be very close 688 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: to the trail, and that they were hardly to move on. 689 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: They had to make a certain amount of products every 690 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: day even still on God so UM. There were a 691 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: lot of grace types that I wish that I could 692 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: have written more about. And I have to wonder, and 693 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: you may have already covered this, but what is the 694 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: one thing above all others that you wish for readers 695 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: to take away from this book. I think that everybody 696 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: had to kind of in the closing lines of the book, 697 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: but I think everybody has the Oregon trail. You know 698 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: there's something don't come put things off, UM. You know 699 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: there's something you've always wanted to do and you're not 700 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: doing it, UM, and you more at your job or whatever. 701 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: There's always a way to do it if you want 702 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: to do it, you know. UM. I also think the 703 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: second thing I hope people take away is UM, I 704 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: don't I don't really like that the society has become 705 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: right now and you're going to a restaurant and there's 706 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: a family there and every really staring at these little 707 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: black boxes in front of it in the hands. You know, Um, 708 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: we're living so much of social media and websites and 709 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, jumpy little TV shows and our cell phones 710 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: that um, you're not really to meeting with each other 711 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 1: as people and we're not really living with just we're 712 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: just catched it the brain that it's um sophone device. 713 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: And I have to wonder, um, because you kind of 714 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: became like a piece of living history, one in your 715 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: own right, because to have a mule team do this 716 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: trip and particularly the things that people said mule teams 717 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: were not going to be able to do, you kind 718 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: of made your own history. So I wonder did this 719 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 1: journey overall change your relationship with history or how you 720 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: view it? Well, it's interesting, Um, I believe actually that 721 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: the book is more important than the adventure stuff, because 722 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: the adventure stuff because I had like a previous eventure 723 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: in our teenager my brother and I type of tump 724 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: that we rebuilt it on by the California back and 725 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,479 Speaker 1: it was only when you got to California that we rush. 726 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: But the Associated Press was calling off the youngest aviators 727 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 1: to fright coast to coast, and I realized he writing 728 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: a book, and it's much harder to write the book, 729 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: to have the adventure um. The pict would just be 730 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: some little practial chatter things, some little thing maybe some 731 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,280 Speaker 1: of my old friends would remember, et cetera. You Shane, 732 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: without the book, without the turnive the document of the 733 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: book UM and people being able to share that adventure 734 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: and share that history. The history did the So there's 735 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: all these things about the origins trail that now I 736 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: was the people that that didn't He wasn't part of 737 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: the analoge base um before I decided to write the book. 738 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: And so the book is actually the adventure it stuff. 739 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: The book is the medium that makes that adventure um 740 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: available to people. So that was my longest but really 741 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: delightful chat with ring your Bucket. He's the kind of 742 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: person I would just love the chatter with for hours. 743 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: I had such a fun time talking to him, and 744 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: I really just the door the man. So hopefully we 745 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,439 Speaker 1: will maybe get to have him for a visit again 746 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: in the future, because I know he might want to 747 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: do that as well. I will say, like just from 748 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: the point of view of his writing. I really connected 749 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: with it, which is one of the reasons I was 750 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: so excited to do this interview. His writing style is 751 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: just one that naturally hits in all the right places 752 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 1: for me. He's got this really um I we cut 753 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: it out of the interview, but he has this really 754 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: unpretentious way about him, and he's like, nobody sits down 755 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: and says him in to write a pretentious sentence. I 756 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: don't even know what that means, but it's like he 757 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: has this beautifully crafted um turn of phrase that he 758 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: manages his His writing is just beautifully written. It has 759 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: a lovely cadence. But he's so frank and honest about 760 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: himself and his relationship with his brother and their relationship 761 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: with this project. And I think that's why it's come 762 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: up in a lot of reviews that you'll read that 763 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: it's so unpretentious and that's why he just you don't 764 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: feel like it's somebody glossing things over to make themselves 765 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: look great. It's like you get a very honest picture 766 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: of what those months out on the wagon train were 767 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: like for him, and it was just spectacular. I love 768 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: talking with him. Thanks for bearing with us on the 769 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: audio on this one. Yeah, not ideal, but uh an 770 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,800 Speaker 1: ideal interview subject just the same. And the book is 771 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: called The Oregon Trail and it is out now so 772 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: you can pick it up anywhere, and I really do 773 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 1: highly recommend it. And now I'm gonna actually keep them 774 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: the listener mail short since we ran a little long 775 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: on that interview. And this one is from our listener Gene, 776 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 1: and she says, I have been catching up on some 777 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: of your past podcast episodes, and I was listening to 778 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: the Halloween Candy podcast this morning after hearing some listener 779 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: mail referencing it in another episode. The description of Sweetest 780 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: Day made me remember May Day that we celebrated in Omaha, 781 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: Nebraska as kids, but I haven't heard of anyone else 782 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: celebrating it as I moved across the country. May Day 783 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: is May one, and we would traditionally make May Day 784 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: baskets filled with candy or other sweets or small gifts 785 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: to give to our friends on May one, but the 786 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: trick was to leave them on their doorstep without them noticing, 787 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: kind of a ding dong ditch method. My sisters and 788 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: I were always very excited every May Day to open 789 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: our front door and find little baskets of goodies sitting 790 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: there from our friends. I remember we would sometimes use 791 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: Dixie cups filled with popcorn and some candy, along with 792 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 1: a little note saying who it was for and who 793 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,879 Speaker 1: it was from. Did anyone else do this and where 794 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: did it come from? Sounds like a good idea for 795 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: a podcast. Thank you for expanding my knowledge. I love 796 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: your podcast and the energy and excitement about learning from 797 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: both of you. Um Gene, I will tell you I 798 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: fondly remember may Day myself when I was living in 799 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest as a kid. It was always my 800 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: thing because I was a little bit of a suck 801 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,879 Speaker 1: up to make sure that my teachers had made a baskets. Um, 802 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: So I remember it fondly. But I like you, I 803 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: remember when we moved to Florida from um from Washington. 804 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: They didn't know what I was talking about. So it 805 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: may be is isolated pockets. Tracy, did you do may 806 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: Day as a kid? Nope? Nope. We have to map 807 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 1: this out so if any of our other listeners did this, 808 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: and maybe it's an an age thing and generational thing. 809 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: I'm a few years older than Tracy, but not drastically. UM, 810 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 1: we should make the map of May Day celebrations, because 811 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: I'm quite fascinated that some of us did it and 812 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: some don't. In the meantime, I'll see if I can 813 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: look up some other information about where it originated and 814 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 1: what happened to it. Uh. It could be one of 815 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 1: those grassroots things that somebody thought was fun and some 816 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: of some places are caught on at some didn't. UH. 817 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us and share 818 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: your stories of may Day or some other delightful candy 819 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: and treat related activity that maybe other people didn't do, 820 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:36,759 Speaker 1: you can do that at History Podcast at how stuff 821 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,720 Speaker 1: works dot com, or also at Facebook dot com slash 822 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,839 Speaker 1: missed in history, on Twitter at misst in history, at 823 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,439 Speaker 1: pinterest dot com slash missed in history. We're at misst 824 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: in history dot tumbler dot com, and on Instagram at 825 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,800 Speaker 1: misston history. If you would like to do additional research 826 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: on almost anything you can think of, you can do 827 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: that at our parents site, which is how stuff works 828 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: dot com. Or you can visit Tracy and I and 829 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,320 Speaker 1: missed in history dot com up for show notes for 830 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 1: all of the episodes we've been on together, plus an 831 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,800 Speaker 1: archive of every episode ever of all time of Stuffy 832 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: Missy History Class, as well as occasional other goodies uh 833 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,440 Speaker 1: and again. You can do that at missed in history 834 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: dot com or visit our parents site how stuff works 835 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: dot com for more on miss thousands of other topics. 836 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com