Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
Speaker 1: I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, and I write
Speaker 1: the Dear Guy advice column for TED. And this is
Speaker 1: Dear Therapists. Each week we invite you into a session
Speaker 1: so you can learn more about yourself by hearing how
Speaker 1: we help other people come to understand themselves better and
Speaker 1: make changes in their lives. So sit back and welcome
Speaker 1: to today's session. This week we'll get updates from last
Speaker 1: season sessions to find out how our advice worked out
Speaker 1: a year later. I was always taught that your parents
Speaker 1: will live with you and you take care of them
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. There's no other option.
Speaker 1: So when you both presented something else to me and
Speaker 1: gave me permission of a sort, that that was life changing.
Speaker 1: First A quick note, Dear Therapist is for information purposes only,
Speaker 1: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not
Speaker 1: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
Speaker 1: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
Speaker 1: unqualified health provided with any questions you may have regarding
Speaker 1: a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you
Speaker 1: are agreeing to let I Heart Media use it in
Speaker 1: part or in full, and we may edit it for
Speaker 1: length and clarity. And the sessions you'll hear all names
Speaker 1: have been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 1: Hey Guy, Hey Laurie. So I'm really excited for today
Speaker 1: because we're doing our second Where They Now episode, And
Speaker 1: in these episodes, we follow up with people who came
Speaker 1: on season one to hear how they're doing a year later.
Speaker 1: And what we've noticed is that certain episodes fall under
Speaker 1: certain themes. In our first Where They Now, a lot
Speaker 1: of that was about what we've learned about love, and
Speaker 1: in this episode, we're going to be talking a lot
Speaker 1: about what happens in emilies. And so we were talking
Speaker 1: last time about how we get very attached to the
Speaker 1: people that we talked to and how invested we are
Speaker 1: in their lives and their situations. And we're going to
Speaker 1: start off today with someone that a lot of our
Speaker 1: listeners have been asking about, and that is Molly. Molly
Speaker 1: is one of the people I thought about most throughout
Speaker 1: this year. And just as a reminder to you all,
Speaker 1: Molly was dealing with the aftermath of her father who
Speaker 1: had died by suicide, and her mother then blamed Molly
Speaker 1: for having caused this. And there was also quite a
Speaker 1: history with her mother that went back way before this
Speaker 1: had happened. There really was. Molly's mom was living with
Speaker 1: Molly and her husband and kids, so there was really
Speaker 1: no escape for Molly. In addition, Molly was taking care
Speaker 1: of her mom still as she used to, by driving
Speaker 1: her to all her errands and appointments, and she wasn't
Speaker 1: I think, any gratitude for that, just more of the
Speaker 1: same hurtful comments she had been getting since childhood. So
Speaker 1: let's get a reminder from last year. So when my
Speaker 1: son was crying, I remember one time she came down
Speaker 1: the hallway pushed me out of the way to get
Speaker 1: to his room and pick him up. At one point
Speaker 1: she would tell me, just because you gave birth to
Speaker 1: make your mother, So that was very hardful to me.
Speaker 1: You know, these these comments are so devastatingly cruel. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was very hartful. Sometimes when she made these comments
Speaker 1: and my dad would hear them, he was the one
Speaker 1: that would apologize to me because he was always the
Speaker 1: one that apologized for her. What makes this even more
Speaker 1: painful is that it was your father who would be
Speaker 1: the voice of reason in this who could see you.
Speaker 1: He was the one who said, I'm sorry. She said
Speaker 1: that even if he didn't stand up to her, he
Speaker 1: acknowledged that it was not okay what she said. Wow, Lourie,
Speaker 1: hearing that brings back how distressed Molly was and how
Speaker 1: actually felt. Let's see what's happened in her life over
Speaker 1: this past year. Hi, Laurie and Guy. So since the podcast,
Speaker 1: I listened to a couple of times, and the moment
Speaker 1: that you both told me that it was my call
Speaker 1: and that was my choice, that almost was a mind
Speaker 1: blowing moment where that option was never presented to me
Speaker 1: before because as a child and as an adult, I
Speaker 1: was always taught that your parents will live with you
Speaker 1: and you take care of them for the rest of
Speaker 1: your life. That's it. There's no other option. That was
Speaker 1: the only option. So when you both presented something else
Speaker 1: to me, that was life change. So from that point on,
Speaker 1: with that mindset, I spoke to my mom again and
Speaker 1: I am I presented um an option for her where
Speaker 1: I will give her money and she can live comfortably
Speaker 1: in a different location. Help her out. So she did
Speaker 1: not like that option, and she put some guilt on me. Ever,
Speaker 1: since I was a child, she took care of me,
Speaker 1: and so I turned the tables on her and I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I too, also took care of you, and
Speaker 1: that is longer than when you took care of me,
Speaker 1: because if you add all of those years up, I've
Speaker 1: actually started when I was a child helping them out. Wow,
Speaker 1: this is so amazing to hear that Molly truly understood
Speaker 1: that she was not in jail. Right. Sometimes when we're
Speaker 1: doing these sessions, we don't know what the most important
Speaker 1: moment of that session will be for someone. We think
Speaker 1: it might be one thing, and then the person says,
Speaker 1: oh no, no, no, no, no, it was this. And
Speaker 1: for Molly, it was that moment when she realized that
Speaker 1: she had choices that she was no longer in jail.
Speaker 1: I think, as kids, we don't have those choices, and
Speaker 1: then we grew up to be adults and we think
Speaker 1: that we're still in jail, but we're not. And there's
Speaker 1: this great cartoon that illustrates that. And it's a cartoon
Speaker 1: that I talked about in my Ted talk, and it's
Speaker 1: of a prisoner and the prisoner is shaking the bars
Speaker 1: desperately trying to get out. But on the right and
Speaker 1: the left it's open. There are no bars. All the
Speaker 1: prisoner has to do is walk around those bars. And
Speaker 1: I think that really relates to Molly and her situation.
Speaker 1: And once she understood that it was open on the
Speaker 1: right and the left, that there were no jailers, that
Speaker 1: she could just walk out, Molly said, that's exactly what
Speaker 1: I'm going to do. And Molly is walking out. One
Speaker 1: of the things that kept Molly in jail for so
Speaker 1: long was this feeling of guilt an obligation. And when
Speaker 1: she had this exchange with her mom and her mom
Speaker 1: was trying to give her another guilt trip about it,
Speaker 1: Molly was like, I'm not going on that guilt trip
Speaker 1: to me. That was so much the proof that she
Speaker 1: truly understood that she's free, because not only she refused
Speaker 1: to go on the guilt chip, she didn't actually was
Speaker 1: able to nullify the mom's argument by saying, no, I've
Speaker 1: taken care of you for more years and you have
Speaker 1: taken care of me, which is true, and that's the
Speaker 1: real sign that she really is free now and she
Speaker 1: can't be jailed by guilt, right, And it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: make it easy, but I think Molly was clear that
Speaker 1: it was necessary, So let's hear a little bit more
Speaker 1: so from that point I got ugly. Of course, she
Speaker 1: would call my relatives and bad mouth me, and they
Speaker 1: called me to yell at me, and of course I
Speaker 1: hung up. I'm not listening to that. But anyways, it
Speaker 1: really made me realize that I really have no family
Speaker 1: at this point. Because everybody was on her side. She
Speaker 1: somehow convinced them decide with her, and nobody wants to
Speaker 1: hear from me. So I thought, well, if they think
Speaker 1: it's I'm such a horrible person, I'm not doing a
Speaker 1: great job, then they can help you out. They can
Speaker 1: help you move, they can help you with your medical care,
Speaker 1: with anything you need. So who decided to move and
Speaker 1: sell the house, and they gave her some of that money,
Speaker 1: actually a lot of that money for her to live
Speaker 1: and I actually haven't been in touch with her, and
Speaker 1: life has been fantastic after that. I don't have to
Speaker 1: hear the complaints, daily complaints, insults, criticism, lists of stuff
Speaker 1: for me to do. It's it's been very free, so
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying that. The aspect that is hard on
Speaker 1: me is that the decision that I made affected my
Speaker 1: kids because I took away their grandma, her and their relatives.
Speaker 1: So that's been hard to grasp. Molly's honesty here about
Speaker 1: what she lost as well as what she gained is
Speaker 1: so important because she did lose her extended family, and
Speaker 1: her kids lost their grandmother and their aunts and uncles
Speaker 1: and their cousins, which is really heartbreaking. And so with
Speaker 1: those gains also comes some loss. The fact that despite
Speaker 1: these really painful losses for her for her family, she
Speaker 1: is able to acknowledge that she feels so much freer
Speaker 1: and that she's enjoying her freedom to me as a
Speaker 1: statement about how much she was suffering in her day
Speaker 1: to day life with her mom in the home, because
Speaker 1: despite losing so much, Molly still feels like I came
Speaker 1: out ahead and my family came out ahead. And I
Speaker 1: think that the gain for her kids is that get
Speaker 1: a happy mother, because we all know that when you
Speaker 1: grow up with a mother who is depressed and feels
Speaker 1: trapped and is miserable all the time, that is not
Speaker 1: good for your kids. It's not good modeling for them,
Speaker 1: and it interferes with the relationship that the kids have
Speaker 1: with the mother and that the mother has with the kids.
Speaker 1: And so in freeing herself, while her kids did lose
Speaker 1: those other relationships, it does get them out of jail too,
Speaker 1: because they get to see a happy mother and they
Speaker 1: get to see a happy family. Because what happens when
Speaker 1: people get free is that they find other people to
Speaker 1: fill in the gaps for them, they find a surrogate family.
Speaker 1: And so being able to hold the both and of this,
Speaker 1: the good and the bad of her decision, is a
Speaker 1: real sign of emotional strength. And I think it did
Speaker 1: a real favor not just to her, but to her
Speaker 1: entire immediate family. And I agree because attentions in that
Speaker 1: household must have been so significant. It's not as if
Speaker 1: the kids weren't aware of them or the husband wasn't
Speaker 1: aware of them. So it must have changed the entire
Speaker 1: vibe and culture of the household for the better. So
Speaker 1: I think Molly had a little bit more to tell us.
Speaker 1: Husband and I with m we work everything out. It's
Speaker 1: or we work together, and it's been going great. Our
Speaker 1: relationship is really strong. So thank you so much for
Speaker 1: opening my eyes up and getting me on that prison.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I am so glad. Molly mentioned her husband.
Speaker 1: One of our assignments for her was to lean on him.
Speaker 1: Clearly they were coming together to work as a team
Speaker 1: to make these big, big decisions. And when you come
Speaker 1: together and work as a team in a very difficult circumstance,
Speaker 1: it always strengthens your relationship, right, And we're always saying,
Speaker 1: go where the love is. So her mother loved her
Speaker 1: in a certain way that was also very toxic, and
Speaker 1: with the husband, there wasn't enough attention being paid to
Speaker 1: that relationship where all of the good, positive kind of
Speaker 1: love was coming in and that there was potential for more.
Speaker 1: And so they decided together, yes, we're going to sell
Speaker 1: the house and get a house. That really signifies our
Speaker 1: starting a new chapter with our immediate family here, this
Speaker 1: positive chapter in our lives. And I think that they
Speaker 1: are going to get closer and closer. And I think
Speaker 1: for the husband, he is probably so relieved that he
Speaker 1: gets part of his wife back and she gets part
Speaker 1: of him. That isn't all about complaining about the mother.
Speaker 1: They can have aspects to their relationship that are about
Speaker 1: the positive things in their lives, so there's not so
Speaker 1: much emotional real estate being taken up by the daily
Speaker 1: problems that were there because the mother was living in
Speaker 1: the house with them. This was such a difficult situation
Speaker 1: that Molly was in, and I'm sure that people had
Speaker 1: different thoughts and feelings about what she did. Our perspective
Speaker 1: is that she was able to free herself from something
Speaker 1: that was so damaging for so long and really get
Speaker 1: her life back for the first time truly ever. And
Speaker 1: the fact that she did it by working with her
Speaker 1: husband is a great reminder that when you have a
Speaker 1: partner who's willing to help you get out of jail,
Speaker 1: use their support to make changes. And this was a
Speaker 1: big change, but sometimes it's a little change, whatever the
Speaker 1: change is that gets you out of jail. You're listening
Speaker 1: to Deal Therapists from my Heart Radio. We'll be back
Speaker 1: after a quick break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy
Speaker 1: Wench and this is Dear Therapists. So Guy Molly's situation
Speaker 1: is so common, not in the specifics, but in the
Speaker 1: sense of feeling like you're in a situation with a
Speaker 1: family member and you're kind of trapped. And that was
Speaker 1: the situation and with the next person we're hearing from,
Speaker 1: who is Lenny, And here the situation was reversed. It
Speaker 1: was a parent who was trying to have a relationship
Speaker 1: with his adult daughter and they had been alienated for
Speaker 1: t years. That's gonna reminder of that session. She said,
Speaker 1: I changed my mind. I don't want you to come
Speaker 1: to my wedding. And I just asked her. I said,
Speaker 1: I don't understand what you're doing. Why you're doing this?
Speaker 1: And she said to me, she said, you weren't there
Speaker 1: for my teenage years, the last several years that I
Speaker 1: was growing up. It just weren't in my life. I said,
Speaker 1: I wasn't in your life because you kicked me out.
Speaker 1: But then you did end up coming to the wedding.
Speaker 1: How did that come about? I spoke to a rabbi
Speaker 1: and he insisted that I go, and so we went.
Speaker 1: What happened when Julia did see you? Though, because she
Speaker 1: must have seen you there, I can't even remember having
Speaker 1: eye contact with her. To be honest, hasn't been contact
Speaker 1: at all between you and Julia's since then? And what
Speaker 1: efforts did you make sense then to try and stay
Speaker 1: in touch in some way? No, I would write letters,
Speaker 1: I would send gifts at first, but everything was unanswered.
Speaker 1: So let's hear what's been happening with Lenny. Hi, Laurie,
Speaker 1: and guy, this is Lennie. You want to know how
Speaker 1: I've done over the past a year. In the beginning,
Speaker 1: when I was reaching out two or three times a week,
Speaker 1: it was making an impact. At first, I felt very
Speaker 1: nervous because it was it was something very scary and
Speaker 1: it was something very different. Then it became once a week,
Speaker 1: and it became every other week, and as time went on,
Speaker 1: I guess I would say I got used to the
Speaker 1: fact that I was getting absolutely zero response to whatever
Speaker 1: I tried to do. You know, Laurie, I'm remembering that
Speaker 1: last year when he did the exercise for two weeks.
Speaker 1: He was nervous about it, but he felt really good
Speaker 1: about doing it, and his wife reported that he was
Speaker 1: in a better mood and he felt more empowered, and
Speaker 1: it was even carrying over to other aspects in the
Speaker 1: home life, things he was doing proactively. And now we're
Speaker 1: hearing that as the frequency dropped, then he began focusing
Speaker 1: on the fact that he wasn't getting a response. And
Speaker 1: I can imagine how disheartening. This was him doing that
Speaker 1: so frequently and not getting a response, and we asked
Speaker 1: him to do that. The point of the exercise was
Speaker 1: that one of the last points of contact he had
Speaker 1: with Julia was her telling him that he wasn't there
Speaker 1: for her, and he was living with those doubts and
Speaker 1: questions for twenty five years, and we wanted him to
Speaker 1: do something that would really eliminate that so he would
Speaker 1: know that he's done all he could so he could
Speaker 1: truly get to some peace with what's happening. I think
Speaker 1: it's worth mentioning too, that some listeners felt that our
Speaker 1: assignment would feel intrusive to Julia, and in situations where
Speaker 1: there has been any kind of abuse, verbal, physical, sexual,
Speaker 1: obviously this would not be the assignment, And of course
Speaker 1: we should also take into account that we're only getting
Speaker 1: one side of the story. But we also felt that
Speaker 1: because we had his current wife on the call, who
Speaker 1: had witnessed the events over the years, who had been
Speaker 1: there for all of these years and knew Julia, it
Speaker 1: seemed to be that this was a case of either
Speaker 1: parental alien nation from Julia's mother or there was a
Speaker 1: huge miscommunication going on between Lenny and Julia during a
Speaker 1: pivotal time in Julia's life when she was a teenager,
Speaker 1: when she was a young adult, and she felt that
Speaker 1: her father wasn't there for her, and she was deeply
Speaker 1: wounded by that experience. And so we didn't have high
Speaker 1: hopes here, given how long the estrangement had been going on,
Speaker 1: but we did want Julia to know that her father
Speaker 1: is here for her and in no uncertain terms, and
Speaker 1: if she chose not to respond to that, she chose
Speaker 1: not to respond to that, it wasn't going to go
Speaker 1: on for the rest of her life, but it was
Speaker 1: going to be a full blown campaign of I'm your father,
Speaker 1: I love you, and you can engage with me or
Speaker 1: not engage with me. And so again, this was really
Speaker 1: for Lenny to know that he did absolutely everything he
Speaker 1: could to try to let Julia know that he's there
Speaker 1: for her. One other aspect people considering was actually, Lenny
Speaker 1: does this for a living. He's an attorney. He deals
Speaker 1: with families that are going through divorce and trying to reconcile.
Speaker 1: And we didn't want Julia to feel like, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: you spent all your years fighting for other kids and
Speaker 1: their relationships with their parents, but you didn't fight for hours,
Speaker 1: and if that was something Julia was feeling, we really
Speaker 1: wanted her to know that now here he is, he
Speaker 1: is fighting. So let's see a little bit more about
Speaker 1: what happened. So during the course of this year, I've
Speaker 1: sent Julia pictures that I dug up from the first
Speaker 1: ten years of her life, and it was showed the
Speaker 1: the times we share during those years, and I've continued
Speaker 1: sending your pictures right up until last week I sent
Speaker 1: your pictures. One thing that happens with parental estrangement or
Speaker 1: even just disagreements between parents and their children is that
Speaker 1: you have vastly different perspectives on what has actually happened
Speaker 1: and moves towards connection. Bids for connection, we call them,
Speaker 1: are often misperceived as missing. The mark is being misunderstood.
Speaker 1: So when Lenny says he sent pictures of the good
Speaker 1: times that he and Julia shared, I can imagine Julia thinking,
Speaker 1: you're trying to show that we had all these good times,
Speaker 1: But from my perspective, those were not good times at all,
Speaker 1: and it becomes this very all or nothing thing that
Speaker 1: I wonder if for Julia she can't hold both things
Speaker 1: at the same time that they did have these good times,
Speaker 1: and it was very stressful because her parents were in
Speaker 1: this very contentious situation. Her mother was saying very negative
Speaker 1: thing is about the father. The mother was very hurt,
Speaker 1: and Julia might have felt loyalty towards the mother. So
Speaker 1: I can imagine that maybe these pictures did not land
Speaker 1: in the way that they were intended to land. And
Speaker 1: I can understand from Lenny's perspective why it's so confusing,
Speaker 1: and it often is in cases of parental alienation, because
Speaker 1: you go back, you look at the pictures and you go, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: we had such a good relationship at points, and we
Speaker 1: had such good times together. How can you go from
Speaker 1: that to this? So it's very very difficult, and you
Speaker 1: really want to try to parent everything to try and
Speaker 1: get through. So let's hear how things ended up for Lenny.
Speaker 1: In my career, I help other children, and I help
Speaker 1: other families, and I help them reunify and get through
Speaker 1: difficult times. And unfortunately, this is something that I just
Speaker 1: could not do in my own life with my own daughter,
Speaker 1: and for that, I'm very sad. It's it's but, but
Speaker 1: it's something that I've kept in mind now all this time,
Speaker 1: and I am very proud of the fact that I
Speaker 1: can't help other people, and I think it's important. This
Speaker 1: past Sunday evening, I reached out again, and of course
Speaker 1: I got no response at all, and I've decided that
Speaker 1: there really is no point in continuing this. So at
Speaker 1: this point in time, I'm going to reach out to
Speaker 1: her again and I'm going to let her know that
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna keep doing this because frankly, it's just
Speaker 1: too painful to me. But an important thing I got
Speaker 1: out of this is that I feel I've done whatever
Speaker 1: I can do and I've left no stone unturned, and
Speaker 1: I will be stopping this with knowing that I don't
Speaker 1: have doubts that I could have done more. So, I
Speaker 1: want to thank you for allowing me this opportunity with
Speaker 1: Julia to try one more time him and for a
Speaker 1: shot at reunification. I really commend Lenny for having the
Speaker 1: courage to do this. I know he was a little
Speaker 1: bit reluctant. His wife was there for support, and I
Speaker 1: think she really supported it because she could see the
Speaker 1: toll that this was taking on him. And I think
Speaker 1: it's totally legitimate. After a year's worth of efforts to
Speaker 1: write to her and say this is too much for me,
Speaker 1: and say I'm not going to do it anymore because
Speaker 1: it's too difficult, it's too painful. But the sentiment is
Speaker 1: still there, and I just hope that this brought him peace.
Speaker 1: One of the things that feels hopeful to me about
Speaker 1: this is that this is going to be a heartbreak
Speaker 1: that he's going to live with for the rest of
Speaker 1: his life. That's just what happens when you love someone
Speaker 1: and they have cut you out of their life. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, he had this wonderful relationship with
Speaker 1: his wife's children and grandchildren, and he got so much
Speaker 1: out of that. And sometimes we have to create our
Speaker 1: own families, and it sounds like Lenny did that. He
Speaker 1: has a wife who loves him so much. He has
Speaker 1: the stepchildren and the step the grandchildren, and he will
Speaker 1: have to live with the both and of this, the
Speaker 1: not having Julia, which is heartbreaking, but also having this
Speaker 1: other family who can really see him for who he is,
Speaker 1: right And I think that that extra layer of the
Speaker 1: heartbreak goes on forever. But at least now he doesn't
Speaker 1: have the question whether he could have done more, or
Speaker 1: whether there was more to do, and I think that
Speaker 1: makes a big difference. That would allow him to enjoy
Speaker 1: the family that he does have and his life going forward.
Speaker 1: So next we're going to hear from someone else who
Speaker 1: was also trying to redefine family, and that was Christine
Speaker 1: and Louis. There's so many dramatic stories these days with
Speaker 1: DNA testing being so popular. Here's what happened with Christine.
Speaker 1: She was adopted and she knew that, and she thought
Speaker 1: she found her biological father when she became an adult,
Speaker 1: and she formed a very close relationship with him and
Speaker 1: his family. But then through DNA testing, she found out
Speaker 1: years later that the man she thought was her biological
Speaker 1: father in fact wasn't related to her, and another man
Speaker 1: was her biological father, and that shook every one sense
Speaker 1: of who they were and whose family and who cares
Speaker 1: about who, and what's going to happen from now. So
Speaker 1: let's hear a bit from last year session. So now
Speaker 1: you know who both your biological parents are. What was
Speaker 1: it like to actually get that answer for you? Well,
Speaker 1: it's a huge relief. I mean, growing up was super
Speaker 1: important to me to have the answers as to who
Speaker 1: my pological parents were, and so it was pretty devastating
Speaker 1: in the period when then the person who was supposed
Speaker 1: to be my father wasn't my father, and I had
Speaker 1: another father there somewhere, So on the one hand, it
Speaker 1: was a big relief. But then I have to say
Speaker 1: when I called him, when I was making that first call,
Speaker 1: it took me a really long time to do it.
Speaker 1: It was very overwhelmed by emotion. So even talking about
Speaker 1: it now, it's a little hard. Um. It was also
Speaker 1: kind of acknowledging that Alan, the man who was my
Speaker 1: father for the past twenty two years, acknowledging that he's
Speaker 1: being kind of replaced by someone else is again. I
Speaker 1: want to have a relationship with him, and he'll always
Speaker 1: be a dad. But it was really solidifying, like this
Speaker 1: is real. This other person is my father and not Alan.
Speaker 1: So that's what was going on with Christine when we
Speaker 1: had our session, and let's hear how things have developed
Speaker 1: since then, and just for our listeners, when she refers
Speaker 1: to her family in this first update, she means Alan
Speaker 1: and his family Halloween guys, Christine from season one, Well,
Speaker 1: my family is still dealing with the results on certain levels.
Speaker 1: The reframing of the situation you offered me that they
Speaker 1: might be just as afraid of losing me as I
Speaker 1: was afraid of losing them. Continues to be really helpful.
Speaker 1: Sometimes on the show, we have these situations that feel
Speaker 1: very specific to that person, but they're actually quite universal.
Speaker 1: And here the universality was this concept of reframes and
Speaker 1: why they're important because often people will come into therapy
Speaker 1: and they will have a very specific idea of a
Speaker 1: version of a story. And with Christine, it was important
Speaker 1: for her to reframe the situation not so much of well,
Speaker 1: now that I know that the person I thought was
Speaker 1: my biological dad is not my biological dad, and will
Speaker 1: I lose him? That he might be thinking will I
Speaker 1: lose this woman who I've considered to be my daughter
Speaker 1: for the last twenty years. And this principle is actually
Speaker 1: one that plays out in life in many, many ways,
Speaker 1: will be usually much less dramatically. It's that Prince Suple
Speaker 1: of all right, a certain set of circumstances or a
Speaker 1: context brought to people together, and then that circumstance or
Speaker 1: context changes, and so what does that mean for their relationship?
Speaker 1: So that plays out when you've been in a workplace
Speaker 1: and had worked friends for the past ten years, but
Speaker 1: then you go or they go somewhere else, what does
Speaker 1: that mean about the friendship? Or when you graduate from
Speaker 1: college and your college friends and college roommates are now
Speaker 1: going all over the place, what does that mean for
Speaker 1: your friendships? And it's always the case that if it's
Speaker 1: a close friendship, both sides are wondering about, well, what's
Speaker 1: going to happen now that the circumstances have changed, And
Speaker 1: a lot of people make the mistake of saying like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: so we'll talk, we'll be in touch soon, but they
Speaker 1: don't actually talk about what's going on and having that
Speaker 1: conversation saying hey, I'm not going to be working here anymore,
Speaker 1: or you're not gonna be working anymore, but I really
Speaker 1: want to continue our friendship, and I hope that's good
Speaker 1: with you, that we really make an effort to do that.
Speaker 1: It is such an important way to communicate to the
Speaker 1: other person. This is meaningful them to get the reassurance
Speaker 1: from them that it's meaningful for them to and those
Speaker 1: relationships tend to survive and the change of circumstance. And
Speaker 1: when we talk about change of circumstance and families, there
Speaker 1: are so many changes of circumstance, people get divorced, and
Speaker 1: then what happens to those relationships, and then they marry
Speaker 1: new people, and what happens if there are kids, and
Speaker 1: what happens between the people who were married. And it
Speaker 1: also happens with siblings that you have a certain relationship
Speaker 1: with your sibling when you're a child or when you're
Speaker 1: a teenager, and then circumstances changes an adult, and then
Speaker 1: what happens to the relationship. So it's really important that
Speaker 1: people have a conversation about it, and have many conversations
Speaker 1: about it, because if you're not intentional about it, you
Speaker 1: start making all kinds of assumptions about what the other
Speaker 1: person wants or doesn't want. And that's part of what
Speaker 1: happened here with Christine, So let's see it a bit
Speaker 1: more from her having had the honest conversation about it
Speaker 1: with them. I also feel gave us a good foundation
Speaker 1: to work from and having conversations and what is a
Speaker 1: painful topic and having our fears out in the open
Speaker 1: makes them less scary because we're now dealing with it together.
Speaker 1: And in a much bigger sense, that advice has built
Speaker 1: over into other areas of my life, as I can
Speaker 1: look at people from that gentle perspective that maybe they
Speaker 1: are scared of losing what they have. So thank you
Speaker 1: for giving me really great advice that not only helped
Speaker 1: with my family crisis, but has also impacted all of
Speaker 1: my relationships positively. When she says that it has impacted
Speaker 1: all of her relationships positively, it shows that when we
Speaker 1: make positive change in one situation, it almost always leads
Speaker 1: to positive changes in other areas of our lives. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know, DNA testing amazing thing, but it's thrown so
Speaker 1: many families into crisis for all kinds of reasons. But
Speaker 1: it's also such an important opportunity to redefine our concept
Speaker 1: of family and to really expand it, because the principle
Speaker 1: is if two people feel like family, an act like
Speaker 1: family their family. You're listening to, dear therapists from my
Speaker 1: heart rate. We'll be back after a short break. We've
Speaker 1: been talking a lot about family today, and so the
Speaker 1: last person we're going to hear from is Shannon. And
Speaker 1: Shannon wrote to us as the holidays were coming up
Speaker 1: and she was reeling from a divorce and she was
Speaker 1: having trouble navigating her first holiday season after this very
Speaker 1: messy breakup, and what we heard from her at the
Speaker 1: time was that the holidays went really well. She actually
Speaker 1: did an excellent job in reclaiming the holidays, but she
Speaker 1: was also coming to terms with her relationship and her divorce.
Speaker 1: So let's hear where Shannon was last year. So I
Speaker 1: got divorced Christmas time. We were married for three years,
Speaker 1: together for seven, and officially ended it all of months
Speaker 1: before the divorce was finalized. It was like a whirlwind.
Speaker 1: It felt like my world sort of just came crashing
Speaker 1: down in a way. I mean, in retrospect, I can
Speaker 1: see how much I lost myself in the relationship, but
Speaker 1: going into it really had no idea. Let's see what's
Speaker 1: happened with her. But with the past year, Hey, Laurian guy,
Speaker 1: I am calling with an update. Gosh, so much has changed.
Speaker 1: It's quite amazing. I am just in such a different
Speaker 1: place in relation to my marriage and my divorce. I think,
Speaker 1: frankly that has been the result of a ton of
Speaker 1: work in therapy, just overall processing what happened, the abuse
Speaker 1: that I experienced, but honestly, even more importantly in some ways,
Speaker 1: just the role that I played in that dynamic. This
Speaker 1: was a relationship that it was very emotionally abusive, and
Speaker 1: I think it was hard for her to come to
Speaker 1: terms with that. She wasn't sure whether she could trust
Speaker 1: her instincts about you know, was this okay? Was this
Speaker 1: not okay? So there was the processing of the trauma,
Speaker 1: But then there was the equally important part, which is
Speaker 1: what was my role in this? What drew me to
Speaker 1: this person? And then what kept me there even when
Speaker 1: I was treated in a way that I knew I
Speaker 1: should not tolerate. And sometimes it's difficult to do that
Speaker 1: work at the same time. You might first have to
Speaker 1: come to terms with really the extent of the trauma,
Speaker 1: with how bad things were, and then once you have
Speaker 1: that picture more accurately, then you look at okay, wow,
Speaker 1: so given that what kept me there for so long?
Speaker 1: And try and get that perspective on what was actually
Speaker 1: going on for you? And once you start getting that clarity,
Speaker 1: you can start to look at other parts of your
Speaker 1: life that have been neglected. So let's hear what else
Speaker 1: happened with her over the past year. And there have
Speaker 1: just been so many other changes too. I've been really
Speaker 1: just building a life, I think for myself that's on
Speaker 1: my own terms. I realized I've never actually sat back
Speaker 1: and actually reflected on what routines make me happy and
Speaker 1: what makes me feel grounded. In some ways, I sort
Speaker 1: of feel like I'm finally an adult who knows what
Speaker 1: I like and what I need and what I want.
Speaker 1: I have hobbies outside of work again, running and reading
Speaker 1: and writing. It's honestly sort of been like building a
Speaker 1: life for myself for the first time. I like what
Speaker 1: she said about finally feeling like an adult because she
Speaker 1: had spent the bulk of her twenties and I think
Speaker 1: early thirties with her partner, and those are developmentally very
Speaker 1: important years of moving into adulthood, and she had been
Speaker 1: so absorbed in her difficult relationship that she lost those years.
Speaker 1: So now she's doing the tasks of growing up, but
Speaker 1: with a lot of intention and reflection this time. And
Speaker 1: we see this often with people who have been in
Speaker 1: either a single relationship or they have been serial monogamists
Speaker 1: in the earlier adult years, that they never really had
Speaker 1: the space to figure out who they are as individuals,
Speaker 1: what pleases them, and it's only even the break up
Speaker 1: happens later that they can then do that catch up
Speaker 1: and the heartbreak is terrible, for sure, but it gives
Speaker 1: someone an opportunity to get in touch with those parts
Speaker 1: of themselves that they've never fully explored, right, And I
Speaker 1: think that she's going to learn a lot about herself,
Speaker 1: but I think she's also going to learn a lot
Speaker 1: about herself in relation to others, so that when she
Speaker 1: does start dating again, she's going to do it very differently.
Speaker 1: So let's hear more. And all that led me to
Speaker 1: start dating again, which honestly helped me to rebuild my
Speaker 1: confidence and has given me a really good idea of
Speaker 1: what I want and need and frankly, what I don't
Speaker 1: want and don't need. And the great news is that
Speaker 1: all of that led me to meet someone who is
Speaker 1: wonderful and treats me with so much respect and kindness.
Speaker 1: I feel so lucky to have found that which is
Speaker 1: really wonderful. And then I also bought a new home.
Speaker 1: I wasn't kidding. There was a lot of changes, but
Speaker 1: all of this work on myself honestly really helped me
Speaker 1: to find what I want and need in my life.
Speaker 1: And one of those important things was a place that
Speaker 1: is mine, a place that's peaceful and happy and safe.
Speaker 1: And I have right now. The research tells us that
Speaker 1: we often seek out not the same kind of person,
Speaker 1: but the same kind of relationship, and that's operating often
Speaker 1: a conscious level and an unconscious level. But what has
Speaker 1: helped Shannon here is the work she's done has made
Speaker 1: us so much more mindful, and so much more aware,
Speaker 1: and so much more in touch with what she wants
Speaker 1: and what she needs. She's commartely sought out a very
Speaker 1: different relationship to the one with her ex, and the
Speaker 1: one that sounds much more nurturing and loving. And I'm
Speaker 1: so glad to hear that she avoided that trap of
Speaker 1: going back to something that looks different but in fact
Speaker 1: it's the same relationship. You know, often as therapist, we
Speaker 1: say change happens gradually then suddenly, and what we mean
Speaker 1: by that is that it might seem very sudden to
Speaker 1: the person to whom the change is happening. That so
Speaker 1: much has happened in Shannon's life over the past year,
Speaker 1: but it's not a coincidence. There was all this groundwork
Speaker 1: that was aid and then the changes happened. One Shannon
Speaker 1: was willing to do the work to move through the
Speaker 1: pain and understand her role in the earlier marriage. She
Speaker 1: was much more clear about who she was and what
Speaker 1: she wanted. And when we get clear on that, often
Speaker 1: it feels like the right person just magically appears. But
Speaker 1: it's not magic. It's that you're ready and other people
Speaker 1: see that you're ready, and people who are ready or
Speaker 1: drawn toward each other, just like people who aren't ready
Speaker 1: tend to be drawn toward each other. We say that
Speaker 1: people at similar levels of emotional and relational development often attract.
Speaker 1: So when people say, oh, I always have bad relationships
Speaker 1: with bad people, maybe it's time to look inside and say,
Speaker 1: what is my role here? Shanna did the work and
Speaker 1: her world opened up to the people that she wanted
Speaker 1: to be with, and then she met someone great. But wait,
Speaker 1: there's more. Let's see. You both really helped me to
Speaker 1: see how much I have never defined my own needs,
Speaker 1: and frankly, you pushed me to confront the reality of
Speaker 1: my experience and recognize that I actually have the power
Speaker 1: to set the terms of my life, and that I
Speaker 1: needed to do some learning and discovering of that to
Speaker 1: be able to get there. Um At one point in
Speaker 1: the conversation, Guy had said that he didn't think I
Speaker 1: understood how bad it had been and then Lori actually
Speaker 1: later on said that oftentimes people are hesitant to confront
Speaker 1: those painful experiences because of what it might say about
Speaker 1: them and why they stayed. And I'll be honest, that
Speaker 1: was a really hard one. It's taken a lot of
Speaker 1: work in therapy to crack that box open, honestly, because
Speaker 1: it's really painful. And I think it was really painful
Speaker 1: because I've had to recognize the role I played in
Speaker 1: the dynamic and why I operated in that way, and
Speaker 1: I've realized now I think where some of those tendencies
Speaker 1: come from, and myself in terms of my own upbringing,
Speaker 1: my family dynamic and so letting go has been excruciating,
Speaker 1: But getting unstuck in that way also what's opened myself
Speaker 1: a lot more to finally feeling happy and hopeful again.
Speaker 1: So thank you, honestly for for absolutely everything. It was
Speaker 1: just a true privilege to get to speak with both
Speaker 1: of you, and your words and your advice have been
Speaker 1: a really big part of changing my life. Thank you
Speaker 1: so so much again. Shannon is really drawing direct lines
Speaker 1: from her early experiences of her parents divorce and what
Speaker 1: that did to her and what impact that had on
Speaker 1: her and the family dynamic and how that impacted the
Speaker 1: choices she made in her own relationship. And I think
Speaker 1: it's so powerful and you can actually draw those lines
Speaker 1: for yourself, which I think everyone should do, is to
Speaker 1: look back and understand your earlier experiences in life. But
Speaker 1: do it from a place of self compassion and empathy
Speaker 1: for our younger selves in a way, because kids tend
Speaker 1: to think that they deserve what happens to them, and
Speaker 1: then as an adult that makes you comfortable, and so
Speaker 1: situations in which you are not being treated well. So
Speaker 1: looking back with self compassion is crucial to undoing that
Speaker 1: underlying feeling. Yeah, and that's why therapy is different from
Speaker 1: getting advice that I'm sure when she was going through
Speaker 1: this divorce she got lots of advice, which was helpful
Speaker 1: because people were giving her a reality check about what
Speaker 1: kinds of behaviors were thinks she should tolerate and maybe
Speaker 1: thinks she shouldn't. But the part that wasn't happening was
Speaker 1: making that connection between the why of what she was
Speaker 1: willing to tolerate and when we really started talking about
Speaker 1: her family and what was going on with her parents
Speaker 1: when she was young and she had very loving parents
Speaker 1: the The issue was the predicament she was in as
Speaker 1: a child, where you don't really have perspective on it,
Speaker 1: and you carry it into your adulthood. So Shannon had
Speaker 1: to look at what happened both in her marriage but
Speaker 1: also what happened before she even met her ex wife.
Speaker 1: And if we don't understand those earlier experiences, we end
Speaker 1: up repeating them without even realizing it. Shannon kept emphasizing
Speaker 1: how much work she did in therapy. She is such
Speaker 1: a testament too, when you do that work, how much
Speaker 1: it can truly change your life and change your choices
Speaker 1: and give you an opportunity for true happiness. I think
Speaker 1: what we've seen in these follow ups today is that
Speaker 1: life is complicated and change looks different in every situation.
Speaker 1: But I think in all of these situations there's something
Speaker 1: that has helped people to move forward in some way.
Speaker 1: And I hope that our listeners are able to take
Speaker 1: something from these follow ups as well and apply them
Speaker 1: to their own lives and their own situations. And if
Speaker 1: you do that, we'd love to hear about it. So
Speaker 1: write to us and tell us what happened. Next week,
Speaker 1: we'll be back with the regular session and we'll be
Speaker 1: hearing from a woman who wonders if she should end
Speaker 1: a relationship with her childhood friend. I don't know what
Speaker 1: kind of value I would get out of a friendship
Speaker 1: with her right now, because it feels like I haven't
Speaker 1: gotten any value from that friendship for a while. Hey,
Speaker 1: fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week, don't
Speaker 1: forget to subscribe for free so that you don't miss
Speaker 1: any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by telling
Speaker 1: your friends about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: Your reviews really help people to find the show. If
Speaker 1: you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us
Speaker 1: big or smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at I
Speaker 1: heart media dot com. Our executive producer is Noel Brown.
Speaker 1: We're produced and edited by Mike John's, Josh Fisher and
Speaker 1: Chris Child's. Our interns are Dorik Corwin and Silver Lifton.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Allison Wright and to our podcast fairy
Speaker 1: godmother Katie Courrek. We can't wait to see you at
Speaker 1: next week's session. Dear Therapists is a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Thre