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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to

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Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out a year later.

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Speaker 4: I was always taught that your parents will live with

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Speaker 4: you and you take care of them for the rest

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Speaker 4: of your life. There's no other option. So when you

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Speaker 4: both presented something else to me and gave me permission

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Speaker 4: of a sort, that that was life changing.

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Speaker 3: First. A quick note, dee therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 3: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not

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Speaker 3: a substitute for professional healthcare. Advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

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Speaker 3: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or

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Speaker 3: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

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Speaker 3: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 3: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 3: and clarity. And the sessions you'll hear all names have

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Speaker 3: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey Guy,

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Speaker 3: Hey Laurie.

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Speaker 1: So, I'm really excited for today because we're doing our

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Speaker 1: second where Are They Now? Episode? And in these episodes,

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Speaker 1: we follow up with people who came on season one

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Speaker 1: to hear how they're doing a year later. And what

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Speaker 1: we've noticed is that certain episodes fall under certain themes.

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Speaker 1: In our first Where Are They Now? A lot of

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Speaker 1: that was about what we've learned about love, and in

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Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to be talking a lot about

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Speaker 1: what happens in families. And so we were talking last

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Speaker 1: time about how we get very attached to the people

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Speaker 1: that we talked to and how invested we are in

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Speaker 1: their lives and their situations. And we're going to start

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Speaker 1: off today with someone that a lot of our listeners

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Speaker 1: have been asking about, and that is Mollie.

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Speaker 3: Mollie is one of the people I thought about most

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Speaker 3: throughout this year.

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Speaker 1: And just as a reminder to you all, Mollie was

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Speaker 1: dealing with the aftermath of her father who had died

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Speaker 1: by suicide, and her mother then blamed Mollie for having

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Speaker 1: caused this. And there was also quite a history with

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Speaker 1: her mother that went back way before this had happened.

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Speaker 3: There really was, Molly's mom was living with Molly and

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Speaker 3: her husband and kids, really no escape for Molly. In addition,

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Speaker 3: Molly was taking care of her mom still as she

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Speaker 3: used to, by driving her to all her errands and appointments,

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Speaker 3: and she wasn't getting any gratitude for that, just more

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Speaker 3: of the same hurtful comments she'd been getting since childhood.

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Speaker 3: So let's get a reminder from last year.

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Speaker 4: So, when my son was crying, I remember one time

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Speaker 4: she came down the hallway pushed me out of the

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Speaker 4: way to get to his room and pick him up.

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Speaker 4: At one point she would tell me, just because you

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Speaker 4: gave birth doesn't make your mother.

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Speaker 5: So that was very hortful to me.

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Speaker 6: So you know, these comments are so devastatingly cruel.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was very hortful.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes when she made these comments and my dad would

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Speaker 4: hear them, he was the one that would apologize to me,

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Speaker 4: because he was always the one that apologized for her.

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Speaker 6: What makes this even more painful is that it was

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Speaker 6: your father who would be the voice of reason in this,

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Speaker 6: who could see you. He was the one who said,

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Speaker 6: I'm sorry she said that. Even if he didn't stand

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Speaker 6: up to her, he acknowledged that it was not okay

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Speaker 6: what she said.

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Speaker 3: Well, Laurie, hearing that brings back how distressed Molly was

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Speaker 3: and how actually felt. Let's see what's happened in her

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Speaker 3: life over this past year.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Laurie and Guy. So since the podcast, I listened

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Speaker 4: to it a couple of times, and the moment that

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Speaker 4: you both told me that it was my call and

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Speaker 4: that it was my choice, that almost was a mind

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Speaker 4: blowing moment where that option was never presented to me

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Speaker 4: before because as a child and as an adult, I

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Speaker 4: was always taught that your parents will live with you

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Speaker 4: and you take care of them for the rest of

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Speaker 4: your life. That's it. There's no other option. That was

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Speaker 4: the only option. So when you both presented something else

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Speaker 4: to me, that was life changing. So from that point on.

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Speaker 4: With that mindset, I spoke to my mom again and

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Speaker 4: I presented an option for her where I will give

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Speaker 4: her money and she can live comfortably in a different

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Speaker 4: location help her out. So she did not like that option,

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Speaker 4: and she put some guilt on me. Ever, since I

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Speaker 4: was a child, she took care of me, and so

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Speaker 4: I turned the tables on her and I said, you know,

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Speaker 4: I too, also took care of you, and that is

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Speaker 4: longer than when you took care of me, because if

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Speaker 4: you add all of those years up, I've actually started

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Speaker 4: when I was a child helping them out.

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Speaker 3: Wow, this is so amazing to hear that Molly truly understood.

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Speaker 1: That she was not in right. Sometimes when we're doing

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Speaker 1: these sessions, we don't know what the most important moment

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Speaker 1: of that session will be for someone. We think it

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Speaker 1: might be one thing, and then the person says, oh no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it was this. And for Mollie, it was that moment

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Speaker 1: when she realized that she had choices, that she was

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Speaker 1: no longer in jail. I think as kids, we don't

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Speaker 1: have those choices, and then we grow up to be

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Speaker 1: adults and we think that we're still in jail, but

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Speaker 1: we're not and there's this great cartoon that illustrates that.

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Speaker 1: And it's a cartoon that I talk about in my

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Speaker 1: Ted talk and it's of a prisoner and the prisoner

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Speaker 1: is shaking the bars desperately trying to get out. But

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Speaker 1: on the right and the left it's open. There are

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Speaker 1: no bars. All the prisoner has to do is walk

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Speaker 1: around those bars. And I think that really relates to

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Speaker 1: Mollie and her situation. And once she understood that it

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Speaker 1: was open on the right and the left, that there

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Speaker 1: were no jailers, that she could just walk out, Molly said,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what I'm going to do, and Mollie is

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Speaker 1: walking out.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that kept Molly in for so

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Speaker 3: long was this feeling of guilt and obligation. And when

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Speaker 3: she had this exchange with her mom and her mom

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Speaker 3: was trying to give her another guilt trip about it,

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Speaker 3: Molly was like, I'm not going on that guilt trip

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Speaker 3: to me. That was so much the proof that she

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Speaker 3: truly understood that she's free, because not only she refused

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Speaker 3: to go on the guilt ship, she then actually was

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Speaker 3: able to nullify the mom's argument by saying, no, I've

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Speaker 3: taken care of you. For more years and you have

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Speaker 3: taken care of me, which is true, and that's the

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Speaker 3: real sign that she really is free now. And she

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Speaker 3: can't be jailed by.

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Speaker 1: Guilty right, And it doesn't necessarily make it easy, but

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Speaker 1: I think Molly was clear that it was necessary. So

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Speaker 1: let's hear a little bit more.

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Speaker 4: So from that point I got ugly. Of course, she

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Speaker 4: would call my relatives and bad mouth me, and they

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Speaker 4: called me to yell at me, and of course I

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Speaker 4: hung up. I'm not listening to that. But anyways, it

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Speaker 4: really made me realize that I really have no family

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Speaker 4: at this point. Because everybody was on her side, she

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Speaker 4: somehow convinced them decide with her, and nobody wanted to

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Speaker 4: hear from me. So I thought, well, if they think

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Speaker 4: I'm such a horrible person, I'm not doing a great job,

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Speaker 4: then they can help you out. They can help you move,

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Speaker 4: they can help you with your medical care, with anything

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Speaker 4: you need. So we decided to move and sell the house,

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Speaker 4: and they gave her some of that money, actually a

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Speaker 4: lot of that money for her to live and I

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Speaker 4: actually haven't been in touch with her, and life has

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Speaker 4: been fantastic after that. I don't have to hear the complaints,

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Speaker 4: daily complaints, insults, criticism, list of stuff for me to do.

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Speaker 4: It's been very free, so I've been enjoying that. The

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Speaker 4: aspect that is hard on me is that the decision

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Speaker 4: that I made affected my kids because I took away

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Speaker 4: their grandmother and their relatives. So that's been hard to grasp.

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Speaker 1: Mollie's honesty here about what she lost as well as

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Speaker 1: what she gained is so important because she did lose

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Speaker 1: her extended family, and her kids lost their grandmother and

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Speaker 1: their aunts and uncles and their cousins, which is really heartbreaking,

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Speaker 1: and so with those gains also comes to loss.

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Speaker 3: The fact that despite these really painful losses for her

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Speaker 3: for her family, she is able to acknowledge that she

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Speaker 3: feels so much freer and that she's enjoying her freedom.

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Speaker 3: To me, is a statement about how much she was

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Speaker 3: suffering in her day to day life with her mom

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Speaker 3: in the home, because despite losing so much, Molly still

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Speaker 3: feels like I came out ahead and my family came

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Speaker 3: out ahead.

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Speaker 1: And I think that the gain for her kids is

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Speaker 1: that they get a happy mother, because we all know

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Speaker 1: that when you grow up with a mother who is

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Speaker 1: depressed and feels trapped and is miserable all the time.

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Speaker 1: That is not good for your kids. It's not good

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Speaker 1: modeling for them, and it interferes with the relationship that

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Speaker 1: the kids have with the mother and that the mother

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Speaker 1: has with the kids. And so in freeing herself, while

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Speaker 1: her kids did lose those other relationships, it does get

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Speaker 1: them out of jail too, because they get to see

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Speaker 1: a happy mother and they get to see a happy family.

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Speaker 1: Because what happens when people get free is that they

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Speaker 1: find other people to fill in the gaps for them,

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Speaker 1: They find a surrogate family. And so being able to

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Speaker 1: hold the both and of this, the good and the

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Speaker 1: bad of her decision, is a real sign of emotional strength,

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Speaker 1: and I think it did a real favor not just

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Speaker 1: to her, but to her entire immediate family.

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Speaker 3: I agree because attentions in that household must have been

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Speaker 3: so significant. It's not as if the kids weren't aware

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Speaker 3: of them or the husband wasn't aware of them. So

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Speaker 3: it must have changed the entire vibe and culture of

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Speaker 3: the household for the better.

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Speaker 1: So I think Molly had a little bit more to

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Speaker 1: tell us.

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Speaker 4: My husband and I we work everything out, or we

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Speaker 4: work together, and it's been going great. Our relationship is

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Speaker 4: really strong. So thank you so much for opening my

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Speaker 4: eyes up and getting me on that prison. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: I am so glad. Molly mentioned her husband. One of

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Speaker 3: our assignments for her was to lean on him more clearly,

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Speaker 3: they were coming together to work as a team to

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Speaker 3: make these big, big decisions. And when you come together

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Speaker 3: and work as a team in a very difficult circumstance,

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Speaker 3: it always strengthens your relationship, right, And.

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Speaker 1: We're always saying go where the love is. So her

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Speaker 1: mother loved her in a certain way that was also

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Speaker 1: very toxic, and with the husband, there wasn't enough attention

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Speaker 1: being paid to that relationship where all of the good,

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Speaker 1: positive kind of love was coming in and that there

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Speaker 1: was potential for more. And so they decided together, yes,

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Speaker 1: we are going to sell the house and get a house.

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Speaker 1: That really signifies our starting a new chapter with our

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Speaker 1: immediate family here, this positive chapter in our lives. And

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Speaker 1: I think that they are going to get closer and closer.

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Speaker 1: And I think for the husband, he is probably so

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Speaker 1: relieved that he gets part of his wife back and

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Speaker 1: she gets part of him. That isn't all about complaining

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Speaker 1: about the mother. They can have aspects to their relationship

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Speaker 1: that are about the positive things in their lives, so

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Speaker 1: there's not so much emotional real estate being taken up

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Speaker 1: by the daily problems that were there because the mother

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Speaker 1: was living in the house with them.

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Speaker 3: This was such a difficult situation that Molly was in,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sure that people had different thoughts and feelings

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Speaker 3: about what she did. Perspective is that she was able

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Speaker 3: to free herself from something that was so damaging for

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Speaker 3: so long and really get her life back for the

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Speaker 3: first time truly ever. And the fact that she did

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Speaker 3: it by working with her husband is a great reminder

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Speaker 3: that when you have a partner who's willing to help

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Speaker 3: you get out of jail, use their support to make changes.

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Speaker 3: And this was a big change, but sometimes it's a

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Speaker 3: little change, whatever the change is that gets you out

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Speaker 3: of jail. You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll

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Speaker 3: be back after a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.

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Speaker 1: So Guy Molly's situation is so common, not in miss specifics,

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Speaker 1: but in the sense of feeling like you're in a

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Speaker 1: situation with a family member and you're kind of trapped.

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Speaker 1: And that was the situation with the next person we're

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Speaker 1: hearing from, who is Lenny, And here the situation was reversed.

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Speaker 1: It was a parent who was trying to have a

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Speaker 1: relationship with his adult daughter.

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Speaker 3: And they had been alienated for twenty five years. That's

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Speaker 3: going to reminder of that session.

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Speaker 7: She said, I changed my mind. I don't want you

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Speaker 7: to come to my wedding. And I just asked her.

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Speaker 7: I said, I don't understand what you're doing. Why are

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Speaker 7: you doing this? And she said to me, she said,

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Speaker 7: you weren't there for my teenage years, the last several

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Speaker 7: years that I was growing up, you just weren't in

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Speaker 7: my life. I said, I wasn't in your life because

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Speaker 7: you kicked me out.

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Speaker 3: But then you did end up coming to the wedding.

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Speaker 3: How did that come about?

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Speaker 7: I spoke to our rabbi and he insisted that I go,

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Speaker 7: and so we went.

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Speaker 6: What happened when Julia did see you though, because she

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Speaker 6: must have seen you there.

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Speaker 7: I can't even remember having eye contact with her.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, Has there been contact at all between

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Speaker 3: you and Julia since then? And what efforts did you

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Speaker 3: make since then to try and stay in touch in

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Speaker 3: some way.

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Speaker 7: No I would write letters, I would send gifts at first,

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Speaker 7: but everything answered.

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Speaker 3: So let's hear what's been happening with LENNI.

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Speaker 7: Hi, Laurie, and guy, this is Lenny. You want to

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Speaker 7: know how I've done over the past a year. In

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Speaker 7: the beginning, when I was reaching out two or three

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Speaker 7: times a week, it was making an impact. At first,

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Speaker 7: I felt very nervous because it was something very scary

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Speaker 7: and it was something very different. Then it became once

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Speaker 7: a week, and it became every other week, and as

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Speaker 7: time went on, I guess I would say I got

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Speaker 7: used to the fact that I was getting absolutely zero

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Speaker 7: response to whatever I tried to do.

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Speaker 3: You know, Laurie, I'm remembering that last year when he

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Speaker 3: did the exercise for two weeks. He was nervous about it,

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Speaker 3: but he felt really good about doing it, and his

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Speaker 3: wife reported that he was in a better mood and

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Speaker 3: he felt more empowered, and it was even carrying over

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Speaker 3: to other aspects in the home life, things he was

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Speaker 3: doing proactively. And now we're hearing that as the frequency dropped,

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Speaker 3: then he began focusing on the fact that he wasn't

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Speaker 3: getting a response. And I can imagine how disheartening this

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Speaker 3: was for him doing that so frequently and not getting

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Speaker 3: a response, and we asked him to do that. The

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Speaker 3: point of the exercise was that one of the last

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Speaker 3: points of contact he had with Julia was her telling

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Speaker 3: him that he wasn't there for her, and he was

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Speaker 3: living with those doubts and questions for twenty five years,

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Speaker 3: and we wanted him to do something that would really

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Speaker 3: eliminate that so he would know that he's done all

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Speaker 3: he could so he could truly get to some piece

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Speaker 3: with what's happening.

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth mentioning too, that some less listeners

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Speaker 1: felt that our assignment would feel intrusive to Julia, and

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Speaker 1: in situations where there has been any kind of abuse, verbal, physical, sexual,

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Speaker 1: obviously this would not be the assignment. And of course

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Speaker 1: we should also take into account that we're only getting

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Speaker 1: one side of the story. But we also felt that

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Speaker 1: because we had his current wife on the call, who

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Speaker 1: had witnessed the events over the years, who had been

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Speaker 1: there for all of these years and knew Julia, it

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Speaker 1: seemed to be that this was a case of either

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Speaker 1: parental alienation from Julia's mother or there was a huge

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Speaker 1: miscommunication going on between Lenny and Julia during a pivotal

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Speaker 1: time in Julia's life when she was a teenager, when

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Speaker 1: she was a young adult, and she felt that her

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Speaker 1: father wasn't there for her, and she was deeply wounded

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Speaker 1: by that experience. And so we didn't have high hopes here,

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Speaker 1: given how long the estrangement had been going on, but

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Speaker 1: we did want Julia to know that her father is

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Speaker 1: here for her and in no uncertain terms, and if

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Speaker 1: she chose not to respond to that, she chose not

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Speaker 1: to respond to that, it wasn't going to go on

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Speaker 1: for the rest of her life, but it was going

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Speaker 1: to be a full blown campaign of I'm your father,

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Speaker 1: I love you, and you can engage with me or

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Speaker 1: not engage with me. And so again, this was really

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Speaker 1: for Lenny to know that he did absolutely everything he

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Speaker 1: could to try to let Julia know that he's there

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Speaker 1: for her.

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Speaker 3: One other aspect we were considering was actually, Lenny does

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Speaker 3: this for a living. He's an attorney. He deals with

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Speaker 3: families that are going through divorce and trying to reconcile,

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Speaker 3: and we didn't want Julia to feel like, hey, you know,

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Speaker 3: you spend all your years fighting for other kids and

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Speaker 3: their relationships with their parents. But you didn't fight for hours,

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Speaker 3: and if that was something Julia was feeling, we really

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Speaker 3: wanted her to know that now here he is, he

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Speaker 3: is fighting. So let's hear a little bit more about

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Speaker 3: what happened.

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Speaker 7: So during the course of the this year, I've sent

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Speaker 7: Julia pictures that I dug up from the first ten

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Speaker 7: years of her life and the show the good times

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Speaker 7: we shared during those years, and I've continued sending your

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Speaker 7: pictures right up until last week I sent your pictures.

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Speaker 1: One thing that happens with parental estrangement or even just

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Speaker 1: disagreements between parents and their children is that you have

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Speaker 1: vastly different perspectives on what has actually happened and moves

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Speaker 1: toward connection. Bids for connection, we call them, are often

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Speaker 1: misperceived as missing. The mark is being misunderstood. So when

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Speaker 1: Lenny says he sent pictures of the good times that

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Speaker 1: he and Julia shared, I can imagine Julia thinking, you're

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Speaker 1: trying to show that we had all these good times,

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Speaker 1: but from my perspective, those were not good times at all,

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Speaker 1: and it becomes this very all or nothing thing that

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Speaker 1: I wonder if for Julia she can't hold both things

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Speaker 1: at the same time. That they did have these good times,

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Speaker 1: and it was very stressful because her parents were in

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Speaker 1: this very contentious situation. Her mother was saying very negative

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Speaker 1: things about the father. The mother was very hurt, and

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Speaker 1: Julia might have felt loyalty toward the mother. So I

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Speaker 1: can imagine that maybe these pictures did not land in

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Speaker 1: the way that they were intended to land.

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Speaker 3: And I can understand from Lenny's perspective why it's so confusing,

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Speaker 3: and it often is in cases of parental alienation, because

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Speaker 3: you go back, you look at the pictures and you go, oh, wow,

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Speaker 3: we had such a good relationship at points in me

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Speaker 3: you had such good times together. How can you go

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Speaker 3: from that to this? So it's very very difficult, and

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Speaker 3: you really want to try, as a parent everything to

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Speaker 3: try and get through. So let's hear how things ended

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Speaker 3: up for Lenny.

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Speaker 7: In my career, I help other children, and I help

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Speaker 7: other families, and I help them reunify and get through

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Speaker 7: difficult times. And unfortunately, this was something that I just

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Speaker 7: could not in my own life with my own daughter,

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Speaker 7: and for that, I'm very sad.

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Speaker 5: It's but it's.

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Speaker 7: Something that I've kept in mind now all this time,

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Speaker 7: and I am very proud of the fact that I

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Speaker 7: can help other people, and I think it's important. This

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Speaker 7: past Sunday evening, I reached out again, and of course

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Speaker 7: I got no response at all, and I've decided that

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Speaker 7: there really is no point in continuing this. So at

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Speaker 7: this point in time, I'm going to reach out to

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Speaker 7: her again and I'm going to let her know that

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Speaker 7: I'm not going to keep doing this because frankly, it's

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Speaker 7: just too painful to me. But an important thing I

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Speaker 7: got out of this is that I feel I've done

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Speaker 7: whatever I can do and I've left no stone unturned,

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Speaker 7: and I will be stopping this with knowing that I

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Speaker 7: don't have doubts that I could.

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Speaker 2: Have done more.

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Speaker 7: So, I want to thank you for allowing me this

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Speaker 7: opportunity with Julia to try one more time and for

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Speaker 7: a shot at reunification.

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Speaker 1: I really commend Lenny for having the courage to do this.

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Speaker 1: I know he was a little bit reluctant. His wife

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Speaker 1: was there for support, and I think she really supported

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Speaker 1: it because she could see the toll that this was

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Speaker 1: taking on him.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's totally legitimate. After a year's worth

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Speaker 3: of efforts to write to her and say this is

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Speaker 3: too much for me and say not going to do

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Speaker 3: it anymore because it's too difficult, it's too painful. But

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Speaker 3: the sentiment is still there, and I just hope this

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Speaker 3: brought him peace.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that feels hopeful to me about

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Speaker 1: this is that this is going to be a heartbreak

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Speaker 1: that he's going to live with for the rest of

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Speaker 1: his life. That's just what happens when you love someone

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Speaker 1: and they have cut you out of their life. At

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Speaker 1: the same time, he had this wonderful relationship with his

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Speaker 1: wife's children and grandchildren, and he got so much out

437
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: of that. And sometimes we have to create our own families,

438
00:25:23,239 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: and it sounds like Lenny did that. He has a

439
00:25:25,239 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: wife who loves him so much, he has the stepchildren

440
00:25:28,679 --> 00:25:33,039
Speaker 1: and the grandchildren, and he will have to live with

441
00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: the both and of this, not having Julia, which is heartbreaking,

442
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: but also having this other family who can really see

443
00:25:39,999 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: him for who.

444
00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:44,239
Speaker 3: He is, right And I think that that extra layer

445
00:25:44,919 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: of the heartbreak goes on forever. But at least now

446
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: he doesn't have the question whether he could have done more,

447
00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:54,519
Speaker 3: or whether there was more to do. And I think

448
00:25:54,559 --> 00:25:57,599
Speaker 3: that makes a big difference that would allow him to

449
00:25:58,159 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 3: enjoy the family that he does have and his life

450
00:26:01,839 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 3: going forward.

451
00:26:06,439 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: So next we're going to hear from someone else who

452
00:26:08,439 --> 00:26:11,559
Speaker 1: is also trying to redefined family, and that was Christine

453
00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 1: and Lourie.

454
00:26:12,719 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 3: There's so many dramatic stories these days with DNA testing

455
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:20,239
Speaker 3: being so popular. Here's what happened with Christine. She was

456
00:26:20,279 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 3: adopted and she knew that, and she thought she found

457
00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:25,759
Speaker 3: her biological father when she became an adult, and she

458
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:28,559
Speaker 3: formed a very close relationship with him and his family.

459
00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 3: But then through DNA testing, she found out years later

460
00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:35,999
Speaker 3: the the man she thought was her biological father in

461
00:26:36,039 --> 00:26:39,039
Speaker 3: fact wasn't related to her, and another man was her

462
00:26:39,079 --> 00:26:42,279
Speaker 3: biological father, and that shook everyone's sense of who they

463
00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 3: were and whose family and who cares about who, and

464
00:26:44,959 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 3: what's going to happen from now. So let's hear a

465
00:26:47,399 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 3: bit from last year's session. So, now you know who

466
00:26:50,199 --> 00:26:52,559
Speaker 3: both your biological parents are. What was it like to

467
00:26:52,639 --> 00:26:54,599
Speaker 3: actually get that answered for you?

468
00:26:54,839 --> 00:26:57,279
Speaker 5: Well, it's a huge relief.

469
00:26:57,479 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 8: I mean, growing up was super important to me to

470
00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:04,519
Speaker 8: have the answers as to who my biological parents were,

471
00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:07,319
Speaker 8: and so it was pretty devastating in the period when

472
00:27:07,919 --> 00:27:10,039
Speaker 8: then the person who was supposed to be my father

473
00:27:10,159 --> 00:27:13,319
Speaker 8: it wasn't my father, and I had another father there somewhere,

474
00:27:13,999 --> 00:27:16,039
Speaker 8: So on the one hand, it was a big relief.

475
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 8: But then I have to say when I called him,

476
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 8: when I was making that first call, it took me

477
00:27:21,439 --> 00:27:23,799
Speaker 8: a really long time to do it. It was very

478
00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:27,519
Speaker 8: overwhelmed by emotion. So even talking about it now, it's

479
00:27:28,239 --> 00:27:32,479
Speaker 8: cool a little hard. It was also kind of acknowledging

480
00:27:32,639 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 8: that Alan, the man who was my father for the

481
00:27:36,919 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 8: past twenty two years, acknowledging that he's being kind of

482
00:27:41,439 --> 00:27:43,959
Speaker 8: replaced by someone else. It is again, I want to

483
00:27:43,959 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 8: have a relationship with him, and he'll always be a dad.

484
00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:50,519
Speaker 8: But it was really solidifying, like this is real. This

485
00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:53,039
Speaker 8: other person is my father and not Alan.

486
00:27:56,199 --> 00:27:57,999
Speaker 1: So that's what was going on with Christine when we

487
00:27:58,039 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 1: had our session, and let's hear how things have developed

488
00:28:01,079 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: since then, and just for our listeners, when she refers

489
00:28:03,959 --> 00:28:08,039
Speaker 1: to her family in this first update, she means Alan

490
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,319
Speaker 1: and his family.

491
00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 5: Hilari and guys. Christine from season one, Well, my family's

492
00:28:13,439 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 5: still dealing with the results on certain levels. The reframing

493
00:28:16,759 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 5: of this situation.

494
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 8: You offered me that they might be just as afraid

495
00:28:20,199 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 8: of losing me as I was afraid of losing them.

496
00:28:23,399 --> 00:28:25,039
Speaker 5: Continues to be really helpful.

497
00:28:26,239 --> 00:28:28,759
Speaker 1: Sometimes on the show, we have these situations that feel

498
00:28:28,839 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: very specific to that person, but they're actually quite universal.

499
00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 1: And here the universality was this concept of reframes and

500
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:42,039
Speaker 1: why they're important because often people will come into therapy

501
00:28:42,479 --> 00:28:45,759
Speaker 1: and they will have a very specific idea of a

502
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:49,759
Speaker 1: version of a story. And with Christine, it was important

503
00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:53,999
Speaker 1: for her to reframe the situation not so much of well,

504
00:28:54,159 --> 00:28:57,159
Speaker 1: now that I know that the person I thought was

505
00:28:57,159 --> 00:29:01,279
Speaker 1: my biological dad is not my biological dad, and will

506
00:29:01,719 --> 00:29:05,439
Speaker 1: I lose him? That he might be thinking will I

507
00:29:05,639 --> 00:29:08,999
Speaker 1: lose this woman who I've considered to be my daughter

508
00:29:08,999 --> 00:29:10,279
Speaker 1: for the last twenty years.

509
00:29:10,879 --> 00:29:14,319
Speaker 3: And this principle is actually one that plays out in

510
00:29:14,919 --> 00:29:18,079
Speaker 3: life in many, many ways, orbit usually much less dramatically.

511
00:29:18,159 --> 00:29:20,599
Speaker 3: It's that principle of all right, a certain set of

512
00:29:20,639 --> 00:29:24,439
Speaker 3: circumstances or a context brought two people together, and then

513
00:29:24,479 --> 00:29:27,439
Speaker 3: that circumstance or context changes, and so what does that

514
00:29:27,479 --> 00:29:30,159
Speaker 3: mean for their relationship? So that plays out when you've

515
00:29:30,159 --> 00:29:32,079
Speaker 3: been in a workplace and had work friends for the

516
00:29:32,119 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 3: past ten years, but then you go or they go

517
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 3: somewhere else, what does that mean about the friendship? Or

518
00:29:36,999 --> 00:29:39,719
Speaker 3: when you graduate from college and your college friends and

519
00:29:39,759 --> 00:29:42,199
Speaker 3: college roommates are now going all over the place, what

520
00:29:42,239 --> 00:29:45,159
Speaker 3: does that mean for your friendships? And it's always the

521
00:29:45,239 --> 00:29:48,359
Speaker 3: case that if it's a close friendship, both sides are

522
00:29:48,399 --> 00:29:51,639
Speaker 3: wondering about, well, what's going to happen now that the

523
00:29:51,679 --> 00:29:53,879
Speaker 3: circumstances have changed, And a lot of people make the

524
00:29:53,919 --> 00:29:56,119
Speaker 3: mistake of saying like, oh, well, so we'll talk, we'll

525
00:29:56,159 --> 00:29:58,039
Speaker 3: be in touch soon, but they don't actually talk about

526
00:29:58,039 --> 00:30:01,119
Speaker 3: what's going on and having that conversation saying Hey, I'm

527
00:30:01,119 --> 00:30:02,839
Speaker 3: not going to be working here anymore, or you're not

528
00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:04,919
Speaker 3: going to be working anymore, but I really want to

529
00:30:04,919 --> 00:30:07,039
Speaker 3: continue our friendship and I hope that's good with you.

530
00:30:07,159 --> 00:30:09,519
Speaker 3: That we really make an effort to do that is

531
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 3: such an important way to communicate to the other person.

532
00:30:12,319 --> 00:30:14,519
Speaker 3: This is meaningful them to get the reassurance from them

533
00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:17,439
Speaker 3: that it's meaningful for them too, And those relationships tend

534
00:30:17,519 --> 00:30:20,519
Speaker 3: to survive and lost the change of circumstance.

535
00:30:20,759 --> 00:30:23,359
Speaker 1: And when we talk about change of circumstance and families,

536
00:30:23,759 --> 00:30:26,799
Speaker 1: there are so many changes of circumstance people get divorced,

537
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:29,039
Speaker 1: and then what happens to those relationships, and then they

538
00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:31,679
Speaker 1: marry new people, and what happens if there are kids,

539
00:30:31,679 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 1: and what happens between the people who were married. And

540
00:30:35,199 --> 00:30:37,159
Speaker 1: it also happens with siblings that you have a certain

541
00:30:37,199 --> 00:30:40,679
Speaker 1: relationship with your sibling when you're a child or when

542
00:30:40,719 --> 00:30:43,279
Speaker 1: you're a teenager, and then circumstances change as an adult,

543
00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:46,639
Speaker 1: and then what happens to the relationship. So it's really

544
00:30:46,679 --> 00:30:49,799
Speaker 1: important that people have a conversation about it, and have

545
00:30:49,879 --> 00:30:53,479
Speaker 1: many conversations about it, because if you're not intentional about it,

546
00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 1: you start making all kinds of assumptions about what the

547
00:30:55,759 --> 00:30:58,319
Speaker 1: other person wants or doesn't want. And that's part of

548
00:30:58,319 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 1: what happened here with Christine, So.

549
00:31:00,479 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 3: Let's hear a little bit more from her.

550
00:31:03,079 --> 00:31:05,919
Speaker 8: Having had the honest conversation about it with them, I

551
00:31:05,959 --> 00:31:08,839
Speaker 8: also feel gave us a good foundation to work from

552
00:31:09,439 --> 00:31:13,039
Speaker 8: having conversations and what is a painful topic and having

553
00:31:13,079 --> 00:31:15,519
Speaker 8: our fears out in the open makes them less scary

554
00:31:15,639 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 8: because we're now dealing with it together.

555
00:31:19,199 --> 00:31:21,839
Speaker 5: And in a much bigger sense. That advice is built over.

556
00:31:21,719 --> 00:31:24,359
Speaker 8: Into other areas of my life as I can look

557
00:31:24,399 --> 00:31:27,519
Speaker 8: at people from that gentle perspective that maybe they are

558
00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 8: scared of losing what they have. So thank you for

559
00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:33,039
Speaker 8: giving me really great advice that not only helped with

560
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:36,519
Speaker 8: my family crisis, but has also impacted all of my

561
00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:38,039
Speaker 8: relationships positively.

562
00:31:38,679 --> 00:31:41,039
Speaker 1: When she says that it has impacted all of her

563
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:45,079
Speaker 1: relationships positively, it shows that when we make positive change

564
00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:49,199
Speaker 1: in one situation, it almost always leads to positive changes

565
00:31:49,239 --> 00:31:50,639
Speaker 1: in other areas of our lives.

566
00:31:51,399 --> 00:31:55,799
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, Dally testing amazing thing, but it's thrown

567
00:31:55,959 --> 00:31:59,039
Speaker 3: so many families into crisis for all kinds of reasons.

568
00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:03,479
Speaker 3: But it's also such an important opportunity to redefine our

569
00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:06,799
Speaker 3: concept of family and to really expand it because the

570
00:32:06,879 --> 00:32:11,159
Speaker 3: principle is if two people feel like family, an act

571
00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:13,199
Speaker 3: like family their family.

572
00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:19,399
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

573
00:32:19,439 --> 00:32:35,039
Speaker 1: be back after a short break. We've been talking a

574
00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:37,679
Speaker 1: lot about family today, and so the last person we're

575
00:32:37,679 --> 00:32:40,639
Speaker 1: going to hear from is Shannon. And Shannon wrote to

576
00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:43,199
Speaker 1: us as the holidays were coming up and she was

577
00:32:43,239 --> 00:32:46,559
Speaker 1: reeling from a divorce and she was having trouble navigating

578
00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 1: her first holiday season after this very messy breakup.

579
00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:54,199
Speaker 3: And what we heard from her at the time was

580
00:32:54,199 --> 00:32:57,119
Speaker 3: that the holidays went really well. She actually did an

581
00:32:57,119 --> 00:33:00,359
Speaker 3: excellent job in reclaiming the holidays. But she was also

582
00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:04,319
Speaker 3: coming to terms with her relationship and her divorce.

583
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:06,679
Speaker 1: So let's hear where Shannon was last year.

584
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:12,239
Speaker 9: So I got divorced at Christmas time. We were married

585
00:33:12,399 --> 00:33:18,079
Speaker 9: for three years, together for seven, and officially ended it

586
00:33:18,199 --> 00:33:22,199
Speaker 9: a couple of months before the divorce was finalized. It

587
00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,679
Speaker 9: was like a whirlwind. It felt like my world sort

588
00:33:26,719 --> 00:33:29,239
Speaker 9: of just came crashing down in a way. I mean,

589
00:33:29,279 --> 00:33:32,639
Speaker 9: in retrospect, I can see how much I lost myself

590
00:33:32,919 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 9: in the relationship, but going into it really had no idea.

591
00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:42,559
Speaker 3: Let's see what's happened with her the past year.

592
00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:48,319
Speaker 9: Hey, Lauri and Guy, I am calling with an update. Gosh,

593
00:33:48,439 --> 00:33:52,039
Speaker 9: so much has changed. It's quite amazing. I am just

594
00:33:52,159 --> 00:33:55,279
Speaker 9: in such a different place in relation to my marriage

595
00:33:55,279 --> 00:33:58,399
Speaker 9: and my divorce. I think, frankly that has been the

596
00:33:58,399 --> 00:34:03,079
Speaker 9: result of a ton of work in therapy, just overall

597
00:34:03,159 --> 00:34:06,999
Speaker 9: processing what happened, the abuse that I experienced, but honestly,

598
00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 9: even more importantly in some ways, just the role that

599
00:34:09,439 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 9: I played in that dynamic.

600
00:34:12,319 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 1: This was a relationship that was very emotionally abusive, and

601
00:34:17,439 --> 00:34:18,959
Speaker 1: I think it was hard for her to come to

602
00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: terms with that. She wasn't sure whether she could trust

603
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,679
Speaker 1: her instincts about you know, was this okay? Was this

604
00:34:24,839 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: not okay? So there was the processing of the trauma,

605
00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 1: But then there was the equally important part, which is

606
00:34:31,359 --> 00:34:33,679
Speaker 1: what was my role in this? What drew me to

607
00:34:33,759 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: this person? And then what kept me there even when

608
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,599
Speaker 1: I was treated in a way that I knew I

609
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:39,599
Speaker 1: should not tolerate.

610
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:42,079
Speaker 3: And sometimes it's difficult to do that work at the

611
00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:44,599
Speaker 3: same time. You might first have to come to terms

612
00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 3: with really the extent of the trauma, with how bad

613
00:34:46,839 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 3: things were, and then once you have that picture more accurately,

614
00:34:50,919 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 3: then you look at okay, wow, so given that what

615
00:34:53,959 --> 00:34:56,039
Speaker 3: kept me there for so long? And try and get

616
00:34:56,079 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: that perspective on what was actually going on for you.

617
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,159
Speaker 1: And once you start getting that clarity, you can start

618
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:03,519
Speaker 1: to look at other parts of your life that have

619
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:06,519
Speaker 1: been neglected. So let's hear what else happened with her

620
00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: over the past year. And there've just been so many

621
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,079
Speaker 1: other changes too.

622
00:35:11,359 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 9: I've been really just building a life, I think for myself.

623
00:35:14,839 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 1: That's on my own terms.

624
00:35:16,759 --> 00:35:19,599
Speaker 9: I realized I've never actually sat back and actually reflected

625
00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:22,039
Speaker 9: on what routines make me happy and what makes me

626
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:24,959
Speaker 9: feel grounded. In some ways, I sort of feel like

627
00:35:24,999 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 9: I'm finally an adult who knows what I like and

628
00:35:27,479 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 9: what I need and what I want. I have hobbies

629
00:35:29,839 --> 00:35:33,399
Speaker 9: outside of work again, running and reading and writing. It's

630
00:35:33,519 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 9: honestly sort of been like building a life for myself

631
00:35:36,439 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 9: for the first time.

632
00:35:38,439 --> 00:35:40,999
Speaker 1: I like what she said about finally feeling like an

633
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:43,679
Speaker 1: adult because she had spent the bulk of her twenties

634
00:35:43,759 --> 00:35:47,039
Speaker 1: and I think early thirties with her partner, and those

635
00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:51,679
Speaker 1: are developmentally very important years of moving into adulthood, and

636
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,959
Speaker 1: she had been so absorbed in her difficult relationship that

637
00:35:56,079 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 1: she lost those years. So now she's doing the tasks

638
00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:02,679
Speaker 1: of growing up, but with a lot of intention and

639
00:36:02,759 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: reflection this time.

640
00:36:04,839 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 3: And we see this often with people who have been

641
00:36:06,799 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 3: in either a single relationship would have been serial min

642
00:36:09,319 --> 00:36:12,679
Speaker 3: monogamists in the earlier adult years, that they never really

643
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,479
Speaker 3: had the space to figure out who they are as individuals,

644
00:36:16,519 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 3: what pleases them, and it's only e when the breakup

645
00:36:18,879 --> 00:36:22,039
Speaker 3: happens later that they can then do that catchup, and

646
00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:25,159
Speaker 3: the heartbreak is terrible, for sure, but it gives someone

647
00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 3: an opportunity to get in touch with those parts of

648
00:36:27,319 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 3: themselves that they've never fully explored or defined.

649
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 1: Right, And I think that she's going to learn a

650
00:36:33,359 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 1: lot about herself, but I think she's also going to

651
00:36:35,479 --> 00:36:38,199
Speaker 1: learn a lot about herself in relation to others, so

652
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: that when she does start dating again, she's going to

653
00:36:40,799 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: do it very differently. So let's hear more.

654
00:36:44,199 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 9: And all of that led me to start dating again,

655
00:36:46,399 --> 00:36:50,119
Speaker 9: which honestly helped me to rebuild my confidence and has

656
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 9: given me a really good idea of what I want

657
00:36:51,879 --> 00:36:55,039
Speaker 9: and need and frankly, what I don't want and don't need.

658
00:36:55,879 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: And the great news is that all of that led

659
00:36:58,439 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: me to.

660
00:36:58,799 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 9: Meet someone who is wonderful and treats me with so

661
00:37:02,319 --> 00:37:06,479
Speaker 9: much respect and kindness. I feel so lucky to have

662
00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 9: found that which is really wonderful.

663
00:37:09,359 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 5: And then I also bought a new home. I wasn't kidding.

664
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,119
Speaker 9: There was a lot of changes, but all of this

665
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 9: work on myself honestly really helped me to find what

666
00:37:16,959 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 9: I want and need in my life. And one of

667
00:37:19,359 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 9: those important things was a place that is mine, a

668
00:37:22,399 --> 00:37:26,159
Speaker 9: place that's peaceful and happy and safe and I have

669
00:37:26,279 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 9: that now.

670
00:37:27,359 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 3: The research tells us that we often seek out not

671
00:37:29,919 --> 00:37:32,959
Speaker 3: the same kind of person, but the same kind of relationship,

672
00:37:33,599 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 3: and that's operating off on an a conscious level and

673
00:37:36,839 --> 00:37:40,039
Speaker 3: an unconscious level. But what has helped Shannon here is

674
00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:42,599
Speaker 3: the work she's done has made us so much more mindful,

675
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:44,679
Speaker 3: and so much more aware, and so much more in

676
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,479
Speaker 3: touch with what she wants and what she needs. She's

677
00:37:47,479 --> 00:37:50,679
Speaker 3: completely sought out a very different relationship to the one

678
00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 3: with her ex, and one that sounds much more nurturing

679
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 3: and loving. And I'm so glad to hear that she

680
00:37:56,479 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 3: avoided that trap of going back to something that looks different,

681
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:01,639
Speaker 3: but in fact it's the same relationship.

682
00:38:01,919 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 1: You know, Often a therapists, we say change happens gradually

683
00:38:04,439 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: then suddenly, and what we mean by that is that

684
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:08,639
Speaker 1: it might seem very sudden to the person to whom

685
00:38:08,639 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: the changes happened. That so much has happened in Shannon's

686
00:38:11,799 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: life over the past year, but it's not a coincidence.

687
00:38:16,799 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 1: There was all this groundwork that was laid, and then

688
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: the changes happened once Shannon was willing to do the

689
00:38:23,399 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: work to move through the pain and understand her role

690
00:38:26,319 --> 00:38:29,079
Speaker 1: in the earlier marriage, she was much more clear about

691
00:38:29,079 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: who she was and what she wanted. And when we

692
00:38:31,319 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: get clear on that, often it feels like the right

693
00:38:33,759 --> 00:38:37,039
Speaker 1: person just magically appears. But it's not magic. It's that

694
00:38:37,079 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 1: you're ready and other people see that you're ready, and

695
00:38:39,959 --> 00:38:43,479
Speaker 1: people who are ready or drawn toward each other, just

696
00:38:43,519 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: like people who aren't ready tend to be drawn toward

697
00:38:45,799 --> 00:38:48,679
Speaker 1: each other. We say that people at similar levels of

698
00:38:48,679 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: emotional and relational development often attract. So when people say, oh,

699
00:38:53,279 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: I always have bad relationships with bad people, maybe it's

700
00:38:55,799 --> 00:38:58,479
Speaker 1: time to look inside and say, what is my role here?

701
00:38:58,959 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 1: Shannon did the work, and her world opened up to

702
00:39:01,479 --> 00:39:03,679
Speaker 1: the people that she wanted to be with, and then

703
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:04,599
Speaker 1: she met someone great.

704
00:39:05,519 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 3: But wait, there's more. Let's see the more.

705
00:39:09,359 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 9: You both really helped me to see how much I

706
00:39:12,759 --> 00:39:17,159
Speaker 9: have never defined my own needs, and frankly, you pushed

707
00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 9: me to confront the reality of my experience and recognize

708
00:39:20,439 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 9: that I actually have the power to set the terms

709
00:39:23,319 --> 00:39:26,559
Speaker 9: of my life, and that I needed to do some

710
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 9: learning and discovering of that to be able to get there.

711
00:39:30,959 --> 00:39:33,639
Speaker 9: At one point in the conversation, Guy had said that

712
00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 9: he didn't think I understood how bad it had been,

713
00:39:35,799 --> 00:39:39,959
Speaker 9: and then Laurie actually later on said that oftentimes people

714
00:39:39,999 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 9: are hesitant to confront those painful experiences because of what

715
00:39:44,999 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 9: it might say about them and why they stayed. And

716
00:39:48,319 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 9: I'll be honest, that was a really hard one. It's

717
00:39:50,879 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 9: taken a lot of work in therapy to crack that

718
00:39:53,319 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 9: box open, honestly, because it's really painful.

719
00:39:56,319 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: And I think it was really painful.

720
00:39:57,879 --> 00:40:00,559
Speaker 9: Because I've had to recognize the role I played in

721
00:40:00,599 --> 00:40:03,159
Speaker 9: the dynamic and why I operated in that way, and

722
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,119
Speaker 9: I've realized now I think where some of those tendencies

723
00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:08,639
Speaker 9: come from, and myself in terms of my own upbringing

724
00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:14,079
Speaker 9: my family did, and so letting go has been excruciating,

725
00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 9: but getting unstuck in that way is also what's opened

726
00:40:19,759 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 9: myself a lot more to finally feeling happy and hopeful again.

727
00:40:25,199 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 9: So thank you, honestly for absolutely everything. It was just

728
00:40:29,799 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 9: a true privilege to get to speak with both of you,

729
00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 9: and your words and your advice have been a really

730
00:40:34,759 --> 00:40:36,639
Speaker 9: big part of changing my life.

731
00:40:36,839 --> 00:40:38,119
Speaker 1: Thank you so so much again.

732
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:43,479
Speaker 3: Shannon is really drawing direct lines from her early experiences

733
00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:47,199
Speaker 3: of her parents' divorce and what that did to her

734
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,679
Speaker 3: and what impact that had on her and the family

735
00:40:49,759 --> 00:40:53,639
Speaker 3: dynamic and how that impacted the choices she made in

736
00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 3: her own relationship. And I think it's so powerful you

737
00:40:56,759 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 3: can actually draw those lines for yourself, which I think

738
00:40:59,999 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 3: everyone should do, is to look back and understand your

739
00:41:04,399 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 3: earlier experiences in life, but do it from a place

740
00:41:07,919 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 3: of self compassion and empathy for our younger selves in

741
00:41:11,359 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 3: a way, because kids tend to think that they deserve

742
00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:17,199
Speaker 3: what happens to them, and then as an adult, that

743
00:41:17,319 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 3: makes you comfortable in the situations in which you're not

744
00:41:19,879 --> 00:41:22,919
Speaker 3: being treated well. So looking back with self compassion is

745
00:41:22,999 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 3: crucial to undoing that underlying feeling.

746
00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why therapy is different from getting advice

747
00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:35,959
Speaker 1: that I'm sure when she was going through this divorce

748
00:41:36,279 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: she got lots of advice, which was helpful because people

749
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,519
Speaker 1: were giving her a reality check about what kinds of

750
00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: behaviors thinks she should tolerate and maybe think she shouldn't.

751
00:41:46,479 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: But the part that wasn't happening was making that connection

752
00:41:49,999 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: between the why of what she was willing to tolerate

753
00:41:54,319 --> 00:41:56,919
Speaker 1: and when we really started talking about her family and

754
00:41:56,999 --> 00:41:59,159
Speaker 1: what was going on with her parents when she was young,

755
00:41:59,479 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: and she had very loving parents. The issue was the

756
00:42:02,879 --> 00:42:05,639
Speaker 1: predicament she was in as a child, where you don't

757
00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:08,679
Speaker 1: really have perspective on it, and you carry it into

758
00:42:08,959 --> 00:42:12,599
Speaker 1: your childhood. So Shannon had to look at what happened

759
00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:15,159
Speaker 1: both in her marriage but also what happened before she

760
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,079
Speaker 1: even met her ex wife. And if we don't understand

761
00:42:18,119 --> 00:42:21,519
Speaker 1: those earlier experiences, we end up repeating them without even

762
00:42:21,559 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: realizing it.

763
00:42:22,959 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 3: Shannon kept emphasizing how much work she did in therapy.

764
00:42:27,479 --> 00:42:31,159
Speaker 3: She is such a testament to when you do that work,

765
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:35,119
Speaker 3: how much it can truly change your life and change

766
00:42:35,119 --> 00:42:39,599
Speaker 3: your choices and give you an opportunity for true happiness.

767
00:42:40,039 --> 00:42:41,959
Speaker 1: I think what we've seen in these follow ups today

768
00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:46,479
Speaker 1: is that life is complicated and change looks different in

769
00:42:46,519 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 1: every situation. But I think in all of these situations

770
00:42:50,279 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: there's something that has helped people to move forward in

771
00:42:53,479 --> 00:42:56,639
Speaker 1: some way. And I hope that our listeners are able

772
00:42:56,679 --> 00:42:59,999
Speaker 1: to take something from these follow ups as well and

773
00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:03,039
Speaker 1: apply them to their own lives and their own situations.

774
00:43:03,319 --> 00:43:05,639
Speaker 3: And if you do that, we'd love to hear about it.

775
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,679
Speaker 3: So write to us and tell us what happened.

776
00:43:11,799 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: Next week, we'll be back with a regular session, and

777
00:43:14,359 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: we'll be hearing from a woman who wonders if she

778
00:43:16,279 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 1: should end a relationship with her childhood friend.

779
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,119
Speaker 10: I don't know what kind of value I would get

780
00:43:22,319 --> 00:43:25,679
Speaker 10: out of a friendship with her right now, because it

781
00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 10: feels like I haven't gotten any value from that friendship

782
00:43:28,759 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 10: for a while.

783
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:33,439
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

784
00:43:33,639 --> 00:43:36,079
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

785
00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:39,679
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

786
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,919
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

787
00:43:41,959 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

788
00:43:45,999 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

789
00:43:48,279 --> 00:43:53,599
Speaker 3: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

790
00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

791
00:43:57,359 --> 00:44:01,519
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher and Chris Childs. Our interns

792
00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:05,079
Speaker 1: are Doric Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

793
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:08,599
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.

794
00:44:09,359 --> 00:44:11,559
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

795
00:44:11,799 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio