WEBVTT - Bush v. Gore: Bonus - A Mile In Their Shoes 0:00:16.311 --> 0:00:16.711 Pushkin. 0:00:24.311 --> 0:00:27.431 We felt like we had won, and when we got 0:00:27.471 --> 0:00:30.510 there and there were all these contests and all these questions, 0:00:30.511 --> 0:00:33.271 we thought that there was a effort in place to 0:00:33.311 --> 0:00:37.631 steal the election. Using the word stealing the election is 0:00:37.671 --> 0:00:40.510 just political hyperbole, and I don't usually use that, but 0:00:40.591 --> 0:00:41.991 I definitely felt that emotion. 0:00:45.551 --> 0:00:48.910 Hey, Fiasco listeners, this is Leon Apok. I hope you 0:00:48.991 --> 0:00:50.230 enjoyed listening to Bush v. 0:00:50.391 --> 0:00:50.591 Gore. 0:00:51.631 --> 0:00:54.111 Now that you've heard the whole show, we wanted to 0:00:54.111 --> 0:00:56.431 share with you some bonus material related to the two 0:00:56.431 --> 0:01:00.270 thousand election that we collected during our reporting process. We 0:01:00.311 --> 0:01:03.350 talked to around sixty people for the series, and though 0:01:03.351 --> 0:01:05.911 we included bits and pieces of most of those interviews 0:01:05.911 --> 0:01:08.471 in the episodes you've heard, there were a bunch of 0:01:08.511 --> 0:01:12.791 conversations where after we thought to ourselves, man, people should 0:01:12.831 --> 0:01:15.671 really hear more of this than we're able to include. 0:01:15.791 --> 0:01:18.471 So in the spirit of using every part of the buffalo, 0:01:18.951 --> 0:01:21.591 we are bringing you six additional episodes in which you 0:01:21.591 --> 0:01:23.911 will hear my conversations with some of the most interesting 0:01:23.951 --> 0:01:27.631 people we spoke to. Today bringing you an interview I 0:01:27.671 --> 0:01:31.711 conducted with a Bush campaign staffer named Brian Noys. Noise 0:01:31.751 --> 0:01:34.351 served as a regional political director on the Bush campaign 0:01:34.391 --> 0:01:36.951 in two thousand. We were eager to talk to him 0:01:36.991 --> 0:01:38.671 because we wanted to talk to as many people from 0:01:38.711 --> 0:01:41.471 the Bush side as we could. But we became even 0:01:41.551 --> 0:01:43.791 more interested when we learned about something he had been 0:01:43.791 --> 0:01:46.871 working on, an oral history project about the Bush Camp's 0:01:46.951 --> 0:01:50.791 experience of the Florida recount. As someone who had talked 0:01:50.791 --> 0:01:52.951 to dozens of people to try to piece together what 0:01:53.111 --> 0:01:56.991 happened during that process and why, I was immediately excited 0:01:56.991 --> 0:01:59.591 to compare notes with someone who had been doing something similar. 0:02:00.511 --> 0:02:03.151 When we spoke, Noise told me about his experience working 0:02:03.231 --> 0:02:05.231 on the oral history project and what it was like 0:02:05.271 --> 0:02:07.791 for him and his colleagues back in two thousand when 0:02:07.791 --> 0:02:11.191 they were working on the ground in Florida. Noise started 0:02:11.231 --> 0:02:13.351 out by telling me where the idea for a Bush 0:02:13.391 --> 0:02:18.191 Team oral history came from. 0:02:20.031 --> 0:02:23.831 We were coming up to the twentieth anniversary, and I 0:02:23.831 --> 0:02:26.871 actually have an older daughter who is in college, and 0:02:26.911 --> 0:02:30.591 one of her friends asked about me being involved in politics, 0:02:30.631 --> 0:02:33.751 and I went back through all my old boxes that 0:02:33.791 --> 0:02:35.831 were very unorganized. It just kind of shoved in the 0:02:35.911 --> 0:02:39.550 garage and came across a lot of information from the 0:02:39.871 --> 0:02:44.111 election in two thousand and realized I had some memorabilia, 0:02:44.151 --> 0:02:48.071 and that started me reminiscing with friends, and we decided 0:02:48.111 --> 0:02:50.751 that instead of just telling each other these stories forever, 0:02:51.271 --> 0:02:54.831 we should probably record a few of them for my 0:02:54.951 --> 0:02:57.471 daughter and people like her friends who wanted to get 0:02:57.551 --> 0:03:00.471 kind of a first hand account of a historical event. 0:03:00.911 --> 0:03:02.751 And so how long ago they just start working on it. 0:03:03.591 --> 0:03:08.711 I think the idea germinated for a while, but we 0:03:08.791 --> 0:03:12.111 really took it on in earnest at the end of 0:03:12.111 --> 0:03:16.631 twenty eighteen. So we started, you know, identifying who we 0:03:16.671 --> 0:03:20.311 would want to be on, what kind of technical issues 0:03:20.311 --> 0:03:22.071 we would have to get over to record, the kind 0:03:22.151 --> 0:03:27.471 of things. But we we really kind of an interesting 0:03:27.511 --> 0:03:31.430 point for you is we are not recording Carl Rove 0:03:31.551 --> 0:03:34.951 or Karen Hughes or Joe albar Ben Ginsberg. We're trying 0:03:34.991 --> 0:03:38.311 to get the individuals that haven't been captured in all 0:03:38.351 --> 0:03:41.791 the historical reviews in the past. There may be some crossover, 0:03:42.191 --> 0:03:45.191 but our real goal is to get, you know, people 0:03:45.231 --> 0:03:49.911 that are from Florida, the local representatives, as well as 0:03:50.311 --> 0:03:54.591 kind of a group of colleagues that were either Bush 0:03:54.751 --> 0:03:59.951 campaign or the volunteers professional volunteers that were part of it. 0:03:59.951 --> 0:04:01.831 It's funny, it's so great to hear you. I mean 0:04:01.911 --> 0:04:05.311 to describe it that way, because you know, that's really 0:04:05.351 --> 0:04:07.911 the purpose of our show, too, is to try to 0:04:07.951 --> 0:04:12.311 find people who haven't those barely been canonized as part 0:04:12.351 --> 0:04:15.351 of the you know, people who get top billing in 0:04:14.631 --> 0:04:16.751 a in a movie like Recount or something. 0:04:16.751 --> 0:04:20.431 Sure, well, let's view them as complementary projects exactly, all right, 0:04:20.431 --> 0:04:24.470 because we made a conscious decision to not do both 0:04:24.551 --> 0:04:30.671 sides and just literally focus on the Bush Cheney staff 0:04:30.751 --> 0:04:35.231 volunteers in Florida folks, and large part because after the election, 0:04:35.991 --> 0:04:37.711 a lot of us just didn't tell the stories on 0:04:37.791 --> 0:04:42.231 the record. And so I actually have interviewed somebody who 0:04:42.231 --> 0:04:45.191 has since passed, and so we're realizing our own mortality 0:04:45.271 --> 0:04:47.190 and the number of years that have passed since this. 0:04:47.991 --> 0:04:50.071 And then if we're going to capture this for posterity, 0:04:50.511 --> 0:04:52.991 we need to do it in a way that you know, 0:04:53.111 --> 0:04:56.631 is respectful of the Bush legacy that we all worked for, 0:04:57.071 --> 0:05:00.551 but is personal enough that is interesting. And you know, 0:05:00.591 --> 0:05:02.951 otherwise people like me and a lot of the people 0:05:02.991 --> 0:05:05.671 they're involved in here wouldn't be in a historical record. 0:05:06.391 --> 0:05:08.711 Yeah, well, that's great, what are you gonna do with that? 0:05:08.791 --> 0:05:10.351 I mean, are you gonna just really you sell the 0:05:10.391 --> 0:05:11.871 interviews or what's like the end product. 0:05:12.231 --> 0:05:17.111 So we're really looking at probably three different products. One 0:05:17.551 --> 0:05:21.911 a book or some contemporary story or condensed narraty above 0:05:21.951 --> 0:05:25.191 it that we would hopefully release next year sometime, not 0:05:25.231 --> 0:05:27.591 a profit making thing, just to have it as a record, 0:05:28.111 --> 0:05:30.831 an oral history of all these and finding a presidential 0:05:30.871 --> 0:05:35.070 center or a museum that's interested in housing this, some 0:05:35.191 --> 0:05:38.471 reunions to kind of gather everybody twentieth adversary you do 0:05:38.511 --> 0:05:42.031 that type of thing, and hopefully have that in multiple 0:05:42.071 --> 0:05:43.991 cities so that we would be able to maximize the 0:05:43.991 --> 0:05:45.031 people that can come together. 0:05:45.511 --> 0:05:47.471 And you've heard all the stories, No, not all of. 0:05:47.391 --> 0:05:49.831 Them, not all of them. There were probably a couple 0:05:49.951 --> 0:05:51.431 that people didn't want recorded. 0:05:52.511 --> 0:05:55.111 There's one thing I've noticed, I wonder if you've if 0:05:55.151 --> 0:05:57.390 you've had this experience at all, there's been like a 0:05:57.391 --> 0:06:01.190 surprising number of competing theories of the case, Like what 0:06:01.591 --> 0:06:05.191 was the decisive thing that you know, led to the 0:06:05.231 --> 0:06:08.190 outcome that we had, And so everyone has like a 0:06:08.191 --> 0:06:10.271 moment in their mind where they think it, you know, 0:06:10.351 --> 0:06:13.751 decisively turned. Have you had that experience at all hearing 0:06:13.791 --> 0:06:14.311 that from people. 0:06:14.511 --> 0:06:17.711 You know, what's funny is the majority of people I'm 0:06:17.751 --> 0:06:21.911 talking to are not attorneys, and so our experience, my 0:06:22.031 --> 0:06:25.070 experience in theirs was I had that gut feeling that 0:06:25.111 --> 0:06:27.391 we were going to win and that all was lost 0:06:27.431 --> 0:06:32.151 probably fifteen times during the thirty six days. So looking 0:06:32.231 --> 0:06:36.311 back at it now, it's kind of, you know, not 0:06:36.471 --> 0:06:38.431 the same perspective that I had at the time is 0:06:38.471 --> 0:06:41.831 to when it was really truly over. And that is 0:06:41.871 --> 0:06:44.871 one of the questions that I ask is you know, 0:06:45.191 --> 0:06:46.991 when was it that you felt like it was over? 0:06:47.111 --> 0:06:49.751 And the majority of people that I talked to didn't 0:06:49.791 --> 0:06:53.671 release until the Supreme Court made his decision. There wasn't 0:06:53.671 --> 0:06:57.391 that moment after the first seventy two hours where you 0:06:57.431 --> 0:06:59.551 didn't feel like another shoe was going to drop, that 0:06:59.631 --> 0:07:03.190 another court case would help you or hurt you. And 0:07:03.951 --> 0:07:07.471 whenever you felt good, you just weren't allowing yourself to 0:07:07.551 --> 0:07:10.031 celebrate and feel like you had hit a conclusion because 0:07:11.071 --> 0:07:13.071 you know, you just never knew when you know, another 0:07:13.151 --> 0:07:15.351 level of court or another level official was going to 0:07:15.391 --> 0:07:19.351 review this and change the rules. And this is not 0:07:19.551 --> 0:07:21.951 the project. This is kind of my personal recollection. You know, 0:07:22.551 --> 0:07:25.071 when we were in the counting room in Palm Beach, 0:07:25.271 --> 0:07:27.631 the Emergency Operations Center, when we had moved to the 0:07:27.951 --> 0:07:31.751 bigger platform and we're doing all the precincts. Particularly in 0:07:31.751 --> 0:07:34.991 the first few days, there were so many moments where 0:07:35.591 --> 0:07:37.951 we thought they were getting an advantage, then all of 0:07:37.991 --> 0:07:40.791 a sudden they thought we were getting an advantage, and 0:07:41.151 --> 0:07:45.071 just never knew, you know, whether one counting station was 0:07:45.111 --> 0:07:48.991 going too fast and putting too many core votes out there, 0:07:49.591 --> 0:07:52.271 or whether you had, you know, things going into your 0:07:52.271 --> 0:07:55.311 advantage and it would just go minute by minute. 0:07:55.871 --> 0:07:57.431 Well, it was like the lowest moment for you when 0:07:57.431 --> 0:08:00.151 you when you remember thinking that like you really were 0:08:00.191 --> 0:08:02.111 going to lose, or that the chances were, you know, 0:08:02.151 --> 0:08:05.031 as high as they felt at any at any other point. 0:08:05.391 --> 0:08:10.471 Probably the two biggest points for me were when the 0:08:10.511 --> 0:08:15.911 Palm Beach County canvassing Board went from the one percent 0:08:16.031 --> 0:08:20.671 test to the full manual recount, because we knew it 0:08:20.831 --> 0:08:25.551 was a county that Gore had covered very well and 0:08:25.951 --> 0:08:28.911 there was a higher presented chance that he might make 0:08:28.951 --> 0:08:33.471 gains that would overturn us. The second time was when 0:08:33.471 --> 0:08:40.151 the Florida Supreme Court stepped in on right before Catherine 0:08:40.151 --> 0:08:44.710 Harris was going to certify, and they basically prevented her 0:08:44.710 --> 0:08:47.871 from certifying. And so those were probably the two worst 0:08:47.871 --> 0:08:50.991 moments for me, because when loser draw, you accept it. 0:08:50.991 --> 0:08:53.711 When it's over, right, it's over, we move on to 0:08:53.751 --> 0:08:57.351 the next campaign. Well, this was never over. This was 0:08:57.471 --> 0:09:01.551 always in perpetually a state of anxiety as to when 0:09:01.590 --> 0:09:04.510 would it be over. And that's just kind of counterintuitive 0:09:04.511 --> 0:09:05.511 to a political operative. 0:09:06.471 --> 0:09:09.510 Why that's specifically counter intuitive to a political operative. 0:09:09.471 --> 0:09:13.231 Because you want an end date, So election day, when 0:09:13.271 --> 0:09:16.310 loser draw, it's over. And then each one of these 0:09:16.351 --> 0:09:20.271 decisions that would extend the election was just kind of 0:09:20.310 --> 0:09:23.631 new territory for me. It didn't compute. What do you mean, 0:09:23.670 --> 0:09:27.431 the campaign's continuing this efforts continuing the election was X 0:09:27.511 --> 0:09:31.591 number of days ago. You know, I was already away 0:09:31.590 --> 0:09:34.551 from my family for six months, and every day was 0:09:34.590 --> 0:09:36.871 just more excruciating that I wasn't with my wife and 0:09:36.950 --> 0:09:41.670 young child. And you know, again, sometimes when you're that exhausted, 0:09:42.471 --> 0:09:44.550 you'll take a loss just because you want it to 0:09:44.590 --> 0:09:44.950 be over. 0:09:45.590 --> 0:09:48.391 I can imagine before we get any further, I wanted 0:09:48.430 --> 0:09:51.391 just to make sure that I understand your job correctly. 0:09:51.430 --> 0:09:55.751 You served as the regional political director from all the 0:09:55.751 --> 0:09:58.190 states that touched the ocean or the Gulf of Mexico. 0:09:58.271 --> 0:10:00.950 Is that right correct? And you had Florida correct? How 0:10:01.030 --> 0:10:03.111 much of your like brain space did Florida take up 0:10:03.231 --> 0:10:05.271 during the campaign leading up to the election. 0:10:05.751 --> 0:10:09.751 It was fifty percent for most of the time, and 0:10:09.790 --> 0:10:12.831 then going into the last month it was ninety percent. 0:10:13.751 --> 0:10:16.991 Was there a time when when it felt to the 0:10:16.991 --> 0:10:19.151 Bush campaign like Florida was in the bag. 0:10:20.190 --> 0:10:21.790 No, we always thought it was competitive. 0:10:22.910 --> 0:10:24.231 You always thought they had a chance there. 0:10:24.430 --> 0:10:27.151 Yeah, we always thought it was competitive. I mean the 0:10:27.231 --> 0:10:30.350 number is too big. I mean there's you look at Florida, 0:10:30.391 --> 0:10:34.750 this very diverse. We had advantages and they had advantages. 0:10:35.271 --> 0:10:38.711 You know, Jeb Bush is the name and the governor, 0:10:38.751 --> 0:10:41.990 and everybody pays attention to that. But you know, you 0:10:42.070 --> 0:10:44.111 had you know, law and Childs had just been the 0:10:44.111 --> 0:10:47.750 governor before him, and you had Democratic US senators. You 0:10:47.871 --> 0:10:52.030 had a balance of huge voter bases in the southeast 0:10:52.070 --> 0:10:55.751 that counterweighted the entire rest of the state. So we 0:10:55.830 --> 0:10:58.710 knew we needed to have turnout in order to be successful. 0:10:59.231 --> 0:11:01.831 It's interesting to hear you say that, because I think 0:11:01.871 --> 0:11:05.790 the Jeb Bush thing. It was what made them, the Democrats, 0:11:05.830 --> 0:11:11.231 or at least the Gore folks in Tallahassee, pretty pretty pessimistic. 0:11:12.391 --> 0:11:14.790 They felt like they gave the Bush campaign an advantage 0:11:15.190 --> 0:11:17.111 that they would were unlikely to overcome. 0:11:17.430 --> 0:11:21.110 Well, I mean, think about it, Florida has had Democratic 0:11:21.430 --> 0:11:23.550 leaders on the state wide level too, and so they 0:11:23.550 --> 0:11:28.910 had just as many major donors, just as many volunteers 0:11:29.151 --> 0:11:32.310 historically that were available to them. They had, you know, 0:11:32.471 --> 0:11:35.470 Bob Butterworth, the Attorney General, was a you know, the 0:11:35.950 --> 0:11:38.831 top ranking Democrat I think on the state level. So 0:11:38.950 --> 0:11:41.630 there's a lot of counterbalances to it. I mean the 0:11:41.871 --> 0:11:45.111 other thing too is from a practical level, Jeb was 0:11:45.151 --> 0:11:49.311 on the state canvassing board, but other than that, he 0:11:49.391 --> 0:11:53.070 had no authority over how the elections were managed at 0:11:53.070 --> 0:11:53.830 the local level. 0:11:54.391 --> 0:11:56.830 And so why I think I think the people I 0:11:56.871 --> 0:11:59.191 talked to were saying more that it was an advantaged 0:11:59.271 --> 0:12:02.950 during the campaign because, for instance, because there were a 0:12:02.991 --> 0:12:07.110 lot of people in Florida who were would be reluctant 0:12:07.151 --> 0:12:10.070 to say donate to Gore because they didn't want, you know, 0:12:10.351 --> 0:12:12.871 to be out of favor with with the governor. 0:12:13.631 --> 0:12:17.670 Well, I think there are some people in that category certainly, 0:12:17.751 --> 0:12:20.071 but there were also equal people that would want to 0:12:20.070 --> 0:12:22.231 be in favor with the incoming president and they would 0:12:22.271 --> 0:12:24.990 be working to get their favor with the Senator Gore. 0:12:25.430 --> 0:12:29.591 And so it again, the state was not clearly a 0:12:29.631 --> 0:12:31.631 red or blue state at the time. There was a 0:12:31.670 --> 0:12:32.790 lot of counterbalance. 0:12:33.590 --> 0:12:35.751 I wonder if there was any sense on your end 0:12:35.910 --> 0:12:39.670 on the Bush side that, like after the convention specifically, 0:12:39.751 --> 0:12:45.110 they seemed to really focus on Florida and really it 0:12:45.271 --> 0:12:50.350 seemed to be in good position there, like post Lieberman's nomination, right, 0:12:50.590 --> 0:12:53.950 which obviously helped there. And then you know, I've been 0:12:53.950 --> 0:12:58.631 talking to folks about how after Jeb Bush's Action education 0:12:58.710 --> 0:13:02.030 policy there was a really really huge surge in African 0:13:02.070 --> 0:13:03.350 American voter registration. 0:13:04.430 --> 0:13:07.990 I would concur with that, And I think technology and 0:13:08.030 --> 0:13:10.191 the way that you had information was just differ for 0:13:10.430 --> 0:13:13.471 twenty years ago, and so a lot of what you 0:13:13.550 --> 0:13:17.231 had was word of mouth and anecdotal and polling. So 0:13:17.351 --> 0:13:20.071 polling was a king at the time, but you could 0:13:20.231 --> 0:13:22.830 measure with a lot of that with any definitive level, 0:13:22.910 --> 0:13:25.310 and really not until we changed it in two thousand 0:13:25.310 --> 0:13:28.231 and four and then Obama changed it to another ratchet. 0:13:28.271 --> 0:13:31.430 It to another level. You really couldn't tell your intensity. 0:13:31.871 --> 0:13:35.591 So we gazed our intensity by the absentee ballot program, 0:13:35.710 --> 0:13:38.311 and we had a very extensive absentee ballot program with 0:13:38.391 --> 0:13:42.151 a large turnout, and we thought we were doing extremely well. 0:13:42.590 --> 0:13:46.950 And our Miami Dade kind of on the ground organizer, 0:13:47.910 --> 0:13:51.871 Cuban Fella, did tell me now in retrospect, you know, 0:13:52.030 --> 0:13:56.710 nineteen years later, that he did not anticipate the large 0:13:56.790 --> 0:14:00.591 numbers of African Americans and the turnout to match hours 0:14:01.231 --> 0:14:04.151 because he was so focused on it, and because Eleon 0:14:04.271 --> 0:14:08.351 Gonzales situation was so intense and there was so much 0:14:08.391 --> 0:14:11.711 of a fervor, they thought that, you know, our intensity 0:14:11.751 --> 0:14:15.191 couldn't be matched. And then on election day they did 0:14:15.231 --> 0:14:17.351 match it, and I mean it turned out to be 0:14:17.590 --> 0:14:19.591 neck and neck all the way up and down. So 0:14:19.631 --> 0:14:22.751 I think he was probably a little surprised, only because 0:14:22.991 --> 0:14:24.991 he was so focused on our side and he knew 0:14:24.991 --> 0:14:28.191 we had an intensity. It wasn't that he underestimated. I 0:14:28.231 --> 0:14:31.751 just don't think he was even aware of it. 0:14:31.191 --> 0:14:33.470 It's really satisfied to talk to you about this, and 0:14:33.511 --> 0:14:36.151 it's like, this is exactly the feeling we've been trying 0:14:36.151 --> 0:14:38.271 to conjure in the in the show, just that like 0:14:38.551 --> 0:14:41.231 there's so many little things that could be determinative. 0:14:41.751 --> 0:14:44.071 Oh yeah, well, when there's I mean, when there's five 0:14:44.151 --> 0:14:47.311 hundred and thirty seven votes out of six million casts, 0:14:48.151 --> 0:14:50.871 you know, I probably can't even fathom all the different 0:14:50.871 --> 0:14:54.831 things that really could have affected it. From a state 0:14:54.911 --> 0:14:59.471 the size and is geographically diverse in two time zones 0:14:59.471 --> 0:15:02.391 as Florida, who knows what could have happened. That's why 0:15:02.830 --> 0:15:05.831 when we argue about the early call in the Central 0:15:05.830 --> 0:15:09.111 time zone, how many votes does that affect? How many 0:15:09.111 --> 0:15:11.631 people turned around, didn't go to the polling stations in 0:15:11.671 --> 0:15:15.111 the Panhandle or left or whatever because they felt like 0:15:15.151 --> 0:15:16.110 it was a lost cause. 0:15:16.191 --> 0:15:18.710 I've seen some Republicans say there was like ten thousand votes, 0:15:18.710 --> 0:15:19.951 which strikes me as a little bit. 0:15:20.271 --> 0:15:24.830 It was a billion. You No, I can't quantify it. 0:15:41.871 --> 0:15:44.311 So just let's let's le's boom zoom forward a little 0:15:44.311 --> 0:15:50.230 bit to the actual recount period. What was your understanding 0:15:50.311 --> 0:15:53.951 of what the Democrats were doing? Like did you think 0:15:53.991 --> 0:15:58.551 they were trying to steal the election? Did it that 0:15:58.590 --> 0:16:00.471 what it felt like or how did you conceive of 0:16:00.830 --> 0:16:01.671 like what they were up to? 0:16:02.791 --> 0:16:05.951 We felt like we had won and when we got 0:16:05.991 --> 0:16:08.951 there and there were all these contests and all these questions, 0:16:09.031 --> 0:16:11.791 we thought that they were an effort in place to 0:16:11.830 --> 0:16:16.031 steal the election. And I say that with the political 0:16:16.471 --> 0:16:20.111 hyperbole that it is I personally the way I would 0:16:20.111 --> 0:16:22.511 describe it just day to day, I would say that, 0:16:22.631 --> 0:16:24.271 you know, we thought we had the lead, and they 0:16:24.311 --> 0:16:29.351 were taking efforts to you know, to change the rules 0:16:29.391 --> 0:16:31.591 that they would They were trying every way they could 0:16:31.671 --> 0:16:35.111 to win, which is what you do. But you know, 0:16:35.351 --> 0:16:38.991 using the word stealing the election is just political hyperbole, 0:16:39.071 --> 0:16:41.631 and I don't usually use that, but I definitely felt 0:16:41.671 --> 0:16:46.151 that emotion at the time. I mean, the rules were 0:16:46.151 --> 0:16:49.271 the rules the day of election, and every time that 0:16:49.311 --> 0:16:52.791 there was a standard that was changed or a court 0:16:52.830 --> 0:16:56.750 decision that reset certain parameters, we felt like they were 0:16:56.830 --> 0:16:58.351 changing the rules after the election. 0:16:59.471 --> 0:17:00.271 What rules. 0:17:00.710 --> 0:17:05.231 So the butterfly ballot from the first twenty four hours 0:17:05.271 --> 0:17:10.791 and so on had become a political they were they 0:17:10.830 --> 0:17:17.271 were a political controversy. Rather so the the idea that 0:17:18.110 --> 0:17:21.710 you know, the election was not held in an appropriate 0:17:21.711 --> 0:17:24.751 fashion just didn't we We didn't agree with that that 0:17:24.830 --> 0:17:28.311 the butterfly ballot had been agreed to by the canvassing board. 0:17:28.830 --> 0:17:32.110 You know that in a county that was largely controlled 0:17:32.150 --> 0:17:35.590 by local Democrats, a canvassing board that was you know, 0:17:35.791 --> 0:17:41.110 one elected official and two Democrats, and so we felt 0:17:41.191 --> 0:17:46.071 that there was no inherent Jeb Bush you know, fixed 0:17:46.110 --> 0:17:49.630 to change, you know Palm Beach. That actually was the reverse, 0:17:49.870 --> 0:17:52.190 is that the county officials were the ones that had 0:17:52.231 --> 0:17:54.791 determined the voting methods, and so if there was a 0:17:54.791 --> 0:17:57.870 disadvantage to Gore, it was probably a mistake, not an 0:17:57.911 --> 0:17:59.110 intentional issue. 0:17:59.711 --> 0:18:01.750 I know this sounds cheesy, but I'm curious just if 0:18:01.751 --> 0:18:03.551 you could describe from sort of what it felt like 0:18:03.711 --> 0:18:05.951 to be on the receiving end of what you perceived 0:18:05.991 --> 0:18:09.910 to be an attempt to do something really unfair. 0:18:10.671 --> 0:18:13.551 You know, Leon, to some degree, there wasn't a whole 0:18:13.551 --> 0:18:16.911 lot of feeling. You were just plowing through your day 0:18:17.551 --> 0:18:20.350 trying to figure out what a task you had accomplish. 0:18:20.590 --> 0:18:23.951 You know, what was the situation, How many people did 0:18:23.991 --> 0:18:25.271 you have to get in the room, you know, that 0:18:25.390 --> 0:18:28.671 level of basic logistics. There wasn't a whole lot of feeling. 0:18:28.911 --> 0:18:31.791 And then you know, you're working twenty hour days and 0:18:31.870 --> 0:18:33.511 at the end of the day, there wasn't much time 0:18:33.511 --> 0:18:37.111 for feeling because you were just basically falling exhausted into 0:18:37.150 --> 0:18:40.590 a hotel room. I mean it was chaos for me 0:18:40.751 --> 0:18:44.271 personally too, because I had packed for three days. I 0:18:44.311 --> 0:18:47.830 went to one hotel and I changed in the first 0:18:47.830 --> 0:18:52.150 three days, I changed three different hotels because they weren't 0:18:52.150 --> 0:18:56.950 booking them for thirty six days. The logistics people, or 0:18:57.071 --> 0:18:59.630 even when I would just go sometimes to find an 0:18:59.671 --> 0:19:01.991 open hotel, they were like, say, how long are you 0:19:01.991 --> 0:19:05.350 gonna stay? And I would have to guess, you know, 0:19:05.471 --> 0:19:08.511 I'm not sure, maybe a week this time, and that 0:19:08.830 --> 0:19:11.191 you had to restart. I got kicked out of one 0:19:11.191 --> 0:19:15.110 hotel one time in Palm Beach because of a girl 0:19:15.431 --> 0:19:18.911 softball tournament had come in and they would only book 0:19:18.951 --> 0:19:22.271 me up to like Saturday, And I said, but I 0:19:22.311 --> 0:19:24.271 have to stay through Sunday and they said, well tough. 0:19:24.951 --> 0:19:26.630 Well, I know a lot of people got displaced in 0:19:26.671 --> 0:19:29.951 Tallahassee because of the Florida State game. Yeah, and they 0:19:29.951 --> 0:19:31.910 had to because I guess you will rent those hotel 0:19:31.991 --> 0:19:33.351 rooms like a year in advance. 0:19:33.711 --> 0:19:34.671 Football is important. 0:19:34.791 --> 0:19:39.791 Yeah. So one thing I'm interested in was this idea 0:19:39.991 --> 0:19:43.911 that the approach that the Bush side or the Republican 0:19:43.991 --> 0:19:47.350 side took during the recount process during those thirty six 0:19:47.431 --> 0:19:51.470 days was sort of a new thing for them. You know. 0:19:51.630 --> 0:19:54.791 Before the mid nineties, sure, Democrats were the ones who 0:19:54.830 --> 0:19:56.590 were sort of better at you know, on the ground 0:19:56.991 --> 0:19:59.110 activism or whatever, and that this election kind of changed 0:19:59.110 --> 0:19:59.631 that a little bit. 0:19:59.711 --> 0:20:03.830 From my perspective, in the nineties, we were looking at 0:20:03.870 --> 0:20:07.551 a historical perspective where Republicans had not had complete control 0:20:07.590 --> 0:20:12.350 of Congress, meeting both House and Senate for probably four decades, 0:20:12.991 --> 0:20:16.231 and it wasn't until ninety four when that was my 0:20:17.071 --> 0:20:21.391 first real election in Georgia. Were working around new gamers 0:20:21.390 --> 0:20:25.230 and those folks when we took control of Congress, and 0:20:25.271 --> 0:20:28.430 that was historic because it had been decades since that 0:20:28.590 --> 0:20:33.590 change had happened. And part of the political structure was 0:20:34.231 --> 0:20:37.710 Republicans had this, you know persona of being you know, 0:20:38.110 --> 0:20:43.231 presidential white, you know, more wealthy, economically oriented, and Democrats 0:20:43.271 --> 0:20:47.350 were viewed as more bootstrap union, you know, working on 0:20:47.390 --> 0:20:51.711 the ground kind of people. And Republican campaigns during that 0:20:51.751 --> 0:20:54.791 period were learning how to go knock on doors and 0:20:54.830 --> 0:20:57.150 do more of that type of stuff. But we really 0:20:57.150 --> 0:21:01.670 depended institutionally on direct mail and phone calls and television ads. 0:21:02.311 --> 0:21:05.630 Well newt in that quote revolution started that change, but 0:21:05.711 --> 0:21:10.311 it didn't really come to fruition until after the two 0:21:10.350 --> 0:21:13.911 thousand election because that was that kind of wake up 0:21:13.991 --> 0:21:19.711 call that institutionally, the RNC and the political organizations outside 0:21:19.711 --> 0:21:22.551 of you know where like New York or Ohio, or 0:21:22.590 --> 0:21:27.431 those political organizations that existed forever in new places like Georgia, 0:21:27.471 --> 0:21:30.391 the Republican Party hadn't really existed, so we didn't have 0:21:30.471 --> 0:21:34.151 the same kind of level grassroots. So in that two 0:21:34.191 --> 0:21:37.271 thousand election, we had the opinion that if we got 0:21:37.271 --> 0:21:40.190 into a scrap on the ground that we were going 0:21:40.231 --> 0:21:42.071 to get out numbered, that they were just going to 0:21:42.150 --> 0:21:45.591 institutionally have a better ground game than we did. And 0:21:45.630 --> 0:21:47.071 so we countered. 0:21:46.590 --> 0:21:48.950 That, say you what does ground game mean? During the 0:21:48.991 --> 0:21:51.190 recount though, like the campaign's over, like what do you 0:21:51.311 --> 0:21:52.311 what's what's there to do? 0:21:52.911 --> 0:21:55.910 Well, we had to learn so some of that was 0:21:56.150 --> 0:21:59.951 just an unknown, but we made the assumption that they 0:21:59.951 --> 0:22:03.151 were going to be better organized by filling those roles 0:22:03.991 --> 0:22:07.311 once we found them out. And so as we started 0:22:07.390 --> 0:22:11.471 learning what those roles were, we we filled volunteers in 0:22:11.511 --> 0:22:15.791 from every direction. So there's been a lot of historical 0:22:15.870 --> 0:22:18.151 view of the people who flew in from out of 0:22:18.191 --> 0:22:21.870 the state, but those were only a small subjection of 0:22:21.911 --> 0:22:24.511 the total people that were volunteers. I can tell you 0:22:24.590 --> 0:22:28.111 for a fact, on the ground, particularly those first few 0:22:28.150 --> 0:22:31.230 days before planes could start flying in with other folks, 0:22:32.311 --> 0:22:35.630 ninety percent of the volunteers we had doing counting at 0:22:35.671 --> 0:22:39.551 the Emergency Operation Center were local Florida people. And then 0:22:39.590 --> 0:22:41.590 over time it probably evened out to a little bit 0:22:41.630 --> 0:22:45.110