1 00:00:16,311 --> 00:00:16,711 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:24,311 --> 00:00:27,431 Speaker 2: We felt like we had won, and when we got 3 00:00:27,471 --> 00:00:30,510 Speaker 2: there and there were all these contests and all these questions, 4 00:00:30,511 --> 00:00:33,271 Speaker 2: we thought that there was a effort in place to 5 00:00:33,311 --> 00:00:37,631 Speaker 2: steal the election. Using the word stealing the election is 6 00:00:37,671 --> 00:00:40,510 Speaker 2: just political hyperbole, and I don't usually use that, but 7 00:00:40,591 --> 00:00:41,991 Speaker 2: I definitely felt that emotion. 8 00:00:45,551 --> 00:00:48,910 Speaker 1: Hey, Fiasco listeners, this is Leon Apok. I hope you 9 00:00:48,991 --> 00:00:50,230 Speaker 1: enjoyed listening to Bush v. 10 00:00:50,391 --> 00:00:50,591 Speaker 2: Gore. 11 00:00:51,631 --> 00:00:54,111 Speaker 1: Now that you've heard the whole show, we wanted to 12 00:00:54,111 --> 00:00:56,431 Speaker 1: share with you some bonus material related to the two 13 00:00:56,431 --> 00:01:00,270 Speaker 1: thousand election that we collected during our reporting process. We 14 00:01:00,311 --> 00:01:03,350 Speaker 1: talked to around sixty people for the series, and though 15 00:01:03,351 --> 00:01:05,911 Speaker 1: we included bits and pieces of most of those interviews 16 00:01:05,911 --> 00:01:08,471 Speaker 1: in the episodes you've heard, there were a bunch of 17 00:01:08,511 --> 00:01:12,791 Speaker 1: conversations where after we thought to ourselves, man, people should 18 00:01:12,831 --> 00:01:15,671 Speaker 1: really hear more of this than we're able to include. 19 00:01:15,791 --> 00:01:18,471 Speaker 1: So in the spirit of using every part of the buffalo, 20 00:01:18,951 --> 00:01:21,591 Speaker 1: we are bringing you six additional episodes in which you 21 00:01:21,591 --> 00:01:23,911 Speaker 1: will hear my conversations with some of the most interesting 22 00:01:23,951 --> 00:01:27,631 Speaker 1: people we spoke to. Today bringing you an interview I 23 00:01:27,671 --> 00:01:31,711 Speaker 1: conducted with a Bush campaign staffer named Brian Noys. Noise 24 00:01:31,751 --> 00:01:34,351 Speaker 1: served as a regional political director on the Bush campaign 25 00:01:34,391 --> 00:01:36,951 Speaker 1: in two thousand. We were eager to talk to him 26 00:01:36,991 --> 00:01:38,671 Speaker 1: because we wanted to talk to as many people from 27 00:01:38,711 --> 00:01:41,471 Speaker 1: the Bush side as we could. But we became even 28 00:01:41,551 --> 00:01:43,791 Speaker 1: more interested when we learned about something he had been 29 00:01:43,791 --> 00:01:46,871 Speaker 1: working on, an oral history project about the Bush Camp's 30 00:01:46,951 --> 00:01:50,791 Speaker 1: experience of the Florida recount. As someone who had talked 31 00:01:50,791 --> 00:01:52,951 Speaker 1: to dozens of people to try to piece together what 32 00:01:53,111 --> 00:01:56,991 Speaker 1: happened during that process and why, I was immediately excited 33 00:01:56,991 --> 00:01:59,591 Speaker 1: to compare notes with someone who had been doing something similar. 34 00:02:00,511 --> 00:02:03,151 Speaker 1: When we spoke, Noise told me about his experience working 35 00:02:03,231 --> 00:02:05,231 Speaker 1: on the oral history project and what it was like 36 00:02:05,271 --> 00:02:07,791 Speaker 1: for him and his colleagues back in two thousand when 37 00:02:07,791 --> 00:02:11,191 Speaker 1: they were working on the ground in Florida. Noise started 38 00:02:11,231 --> 00:02:13,351 Speaker 1: out by telling me where the idea for a Bush 39 00:02:13,391 --> 00:02:18,191 Speaker 1: Team oral history came from. 40 00:02:20,031 --> 00:02:23,831 Speaker 2: We were coming up to the twentieth anniversary, and I 41 00:02:23,831 --> 00:02:26,871 Speaker 2: actually have an older daughter who is in college, and 42 00:02:26,911 --> 00:02:30,591 Speaker 2: one of her friends asked about me being involved in politics, 43 00:02:30,631 --> 00:02:33,751 Speaker 2: and I went back through all my old boxes that 44 00:02:33,791 --> 00:02:35,831 Speaker 2: were very unorganized. It just kind of shoved in the 45 00:02:35,911 --> 00:02:39,550 Speaker 2: garage and came across a lot of information from the 46 00:02:39,871 --> 00:02:44,111 Speaker 2: election in two thousand and realized I had some memorabilia, 47 00:02:44,151 --> 00:02:48,071 Speaker 2: and that started me reminiscing with friends, and we decided 48 00:02:48,111 --> 00:02:50,751 Speaker 2: that instead of just telling each other these stories forever, 49 00:02:51,271 --> 00:02:54,831 Speaker 2: we should probably record a few of them for my 50 00:02:54,951 --> 00:02:57,471 Speaker 2: daughter and people like her friends who wanted to get 51 00:02:57,551 --> 00:03:00,471 Speaker 2: kind of a first hand account of a historical event. 52 00:03:00,911 --> 00:03:02,751 Speaker 1: And so how long ago they just start working on it. 53 00:03:03,591 --> 00:03:08,711 Speaker 2: I think the idea germinated for a while, but we 54 00:03:08,791 --> 00:03:12,111 Speaker 2: really took it on in earnest at the end of 55 00:03:12,111 --> 00:03:16,631 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. So we started, you know, identifying who we 56 00:03:16,671 --> 00:03:20,311 Speaker 2: would want to be on, what kind of technical issues 57 00:03:20,311 --> 00:03:22,071 Speaker 2: we would have to get over to record, the kind 58 00:03:22,151 --> 00:03:27,471 Speaker 2: of things. But we we really kind of an interesting 59 00:03:27,511 --> 00:03:31,430 Speaker 2: point for you is we are not recording Carl Rove 60 00:03:31,551 --> 00:03:34,951 Speaker 2: or Karen Hughes or Joe albar Ben Ginsberg. We're trying 61 00:03:34,991 --> 00:03:38,311 Speaker 2: to get the individuals that haven't been captured in all 62 00:03:38,351 --> 00:03:41,791 Speaker 2: the historical reviews in the past. There may be some crossover, 63 00:03:42,191 --> 00:03:45,191 Speaker 2: but our real goal is to get, you know, people 64 00:03:45,231 --> 00:03:49,911 Speaker 2: that are from Florida, the local representatives, as well as 65 00:03:50,311 --> 00:03:54,591 Speaker 2: kind of a group of colleagues that were either Bush 66 00:03:54,751 --> 00:03:59,951 Speaker 2: campaign or the volunteers professional volunteers that were part of it. 67 00:03:59,951 --> 00:04:01,831 Speaker 1: It's funny, it's so great to hear you. I mean 68 00:04:01,911 --> 00:04:05,311 Speaker 1: to describe it that way, because you know, that's really 69 00:04:05,351 --> 00:04:07,911 Speaker 1: the purpose of our show, too, is to try to 70 00:04:07,951 --> 00:04:12,311 Speaker 1: find people who haven't those barely been canonized as part 71 00:04:12,351 --> 00:04:15,351 Speaker 1: of the you know, people who get top billing in 72 00:04:14,631 --> 00:04:16,751 Speaker 1: a in a movie like Recount or something. 73 00:04:16,751 --> 00:04:20,431 Speaker 2: Sure, well, let's view them as complementary projects exactly, all right, 74 00:04:20,431 --> 00:04:24,470 Speaker 2: because we made a conscious decision to not do both 75 00:04:24,551 --> 00:04:30,671 Speaker 2: sides and just literally focus on the Bush Cheney staff 76 00:04:30,751 --> 00:04:35,231 Speaker 2: volunteers in Florida folks, and large part because after the election, 77 00:04:35,991 --> 00:04:37,711 Speaker 2: a lot of us just didn't tell the stories on 78 00:04:37,791 --> 00:04:42,231 Speaker 2: the record. And so I actually have interviewed somebody who 79 00:04:42,231 --> 00:04:45,191 Speaker 2: has since passed, and so we're realizing our own mortality 80 00:04:45,271 --> 00:04:47,190 Speaker 2: and the number of years that have passed since this. 81 00:04:47,991 --> 00:04:50,071 Speaker 2: And then if we're going to capture this for posterity, 82 00:04:50,511 --> 00:04:52,991 Speaker 2: we need to do it in a way that you know, 83 00:04:53,111 --> 00:04:56,631 Speaker 2: is respectful of the Bush legacy that we all worked for, 84 00:04:57,071 --> 00:05:00,551 Speaker 2: but is personal enough that is interesting. And you know, 85 00:05:00,591 --> 00:05:02,951 Speaker 2: otherwise people like me and a lot of the people 86 00:05:02,991 --> 00:05:05,671 Speaker 2: they're involved in here wouldn't be in a historical record. 87 00:05:06,391 --> 00:05:08,711 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's great, what are you gonna do with that? 88 00:05:08,791 --> 00:05:10,351 Speaker 1: I mean, are you gonna just really you sell the 89 00:05:10,391 --> 00:05:11,871 Speaker 1: interviews or what's like the end product. 90 00:05:12,231 --> 00:05:17,111 Speaker 2: So we're really looking at probably three different products. One 91 00:05:17,551 --> 00:05:21,911 Speaker 2: a book or some contemporary story or condensed narraty above 92 00:05:21,951 --> 00:05:25,191 Speaker 2: it that we would hopefully release next year sometime, not 93 00:05:25,231 --> 00:05:27,591 Speaker 2: a profit making thing, just to have it as a record, 94 00:05:28,111 --> 00:05:30,831 Speaker 2: an oral history of all these and finding a presidential 95 00:05:30,871 --> 00:05:35,070 Speaker 2: center or a museum that's interested in housing this, some 96 00:05:35,191 --> 00:05:38,471 Speaker 2: reunions to kind of gather everybody twentieth adversary you do 97 00:05:38,511 --> 00:05:42,031 Speaker 2: that type of thing, and hopefully have that in multiple 98 00:05:42,071 --> 00:05:43,991 Speaker 2: cities so that we would be able to maximize the 99 00:05:43,991 --> 00:05:45,031 Speaker 2: people that can come together. 100 00:05:45,511 --> 00:05:47,471 Speaker 1: And you've heard all the stories, No, not all of. 101 00:05:47,391 --> 00:05:49,831 Speaker 2: Them, not all of them. There were probably a couple 102 00:05:49,951 --> 00:05:51,431 Speaker 2: that people didn't want recorded. 103 00:05:52,511 --> 00:05:55,111 Speaker 1: There's one thing I've noticed, I wonder if you've if 104 00:05:55,151 --> 00:05:57,390 Speaker 1: you've had this experience at all, there's been like a 105 00:05:57,391 --> 00:06:01,190 Speaker 1: surprising number of competing theories of the case, Like what 106 00:06:01,591 --> 00:06:05,191 Speaker 1: was the decisive thing that you know, led to the 107 00:06:05,231 --> 00:06:08,190 Speaker 1: outcome that we had, And so everyone has like a 108 00:06:08,191 --> 00:06:10,271 Speaker 1: moment in their mind where they think it, you know, 109 00:06:10,351 --> 00:06:13,751 Speaker 1: decisively turned. Have you had that experience at all hearing 110 00:06:13,791 --> 00:06:14,311 Speaker 1: that from people. 111 00:06:14,511 --> 00:06:17,711 Speaker 2: You know, what's funny is the majority of people I'm 112 00:06:17,751 --> 00:06:21,911 Speaker 2: talking to are not attorneys, and so our experience, my 113 00:06:22,031 --> 00:06:25,070 Speaker 2: experience in theirs was I had that gut feeling that 114 00:06:25,111 --> 00:06:27,391 Speaker 2: we were going to win and that all was lost 115 00:06:27,431 --> 00:06:32,151 Speaker 2: probably fifteen times during the thirty six days. So looking 116 00:06:32,231 --> 00:06:36,311 Speaker 2: back at it now, it's kind of, you know, not 117 00:06:36,471 --> 00:06:38,431 Speaker 2: the same perspective that I had at the time is 118 00:06:38,471 --> 00:06:41,831 Speaker 2: to when it was really truly over. And that is 119 00:06:41,871 --> 00:06:44,871 Speaker 2: one of the questions that I ask is you know, 120 00:06:45,191 --> 00:06:46,991 Speaker 2: when was it that you felt like it was over? 121 00:06:47,111 --> 00:06:49,751 Speaker 2: And the majority of people that I talked to didn't 122 00:06:49,791 --> 00:06:53,671 Speaker 2: release until the Supreme Court made his decision. There wasn't 123 00:06:53,671 --> 00:06:57,391 Speaker 2: that moment after the first seventy two hours where you 124 00:06:57,431 --> 00:06:59,551 Speaker 2: didn't feel like another shoe was going to drop, that 125 00:06:59,631 --> 00:07:03,190 Speaker 2: another court case would help you or hurt you. And 126 00:07:03,951 --> 00:07:07,471 Speaker 2: whenever you felt good, you just weren't allowing yourself to 127 00:07:07,551 --> 00:07:10,031 Speaker 2: celebrate and feel like you had hit a conclusion because 128 00:07:11,071 --> 00:07:13,071 Speaker 2: you know, you just never knew when you know, another 129 00:07:13,151 --> 00:07:15,351 Speaker 2: level of court or another level official was going to 130 00:07:15,391 --> 00:07:19,351 Speaker 2: review this and change the rules. And this is not 131 00:07:19,551 --> 00:07:21,951 Speaker 2: the project. This is kind of my personal recollection. You know, 132 00:07:22,551 --> 00:07:25,071 Speaker 2: when we were in the counting room in Palm Beach, 133 00:07:25,271 --> 00:07:27,631 Speaker 2: the Emergency Operations Center, when we had moved to the 134 00:07:27,951 --> 00:07:31,751 Speaker 2: bigger platform and we're doing all the precincts. Particularly in 135 00:07:31,751 --> 00:07:34,991 Speaker 2: the first few days, there were so many moments where 136 00:07:35,591 --> 00:07:37,951 Speaker 2: we thought they were getting an advantage, then all of 137 00:07:37,991 --> 00:07:40,791 Speaker 2: a sudden they thought we were getting an advantage, and 138 00:07:41,151 --> 00:07:45,071 Speaker 2: just never knew, you know, whether one counting station was 139 00:07:45,111 --> 00:07:48,991 Speaker 2: going too fast and putting too many core votes out there, 140 00:07:49,591 --> 00:07:52,271 Speaker 2: or whether you had, you know, things going into your 141 00:07:52,271 --> 00:07:55,311 Speaker 2: advantage and it would just go minute by minute. 142 00:07:55,871 --> 00:07:57,431 Speaker 1: Well, it was like the lowest moment for you when 143 00:07:57,431 --> 00:08:00,151 Speaker 1: you when you remember thinking that like you really were 144 00:08:00,191 --> 00:08:02,111 Speaker 1: going to lose, or that the chances were, you know, 145 00:08:02,151 --> 00:08:05,031 Speaker 1: as high as they felt at any at any other point. 146 00:08:05,391 --> 00:08:10,471 Speaker 2: Probably the two biggest points for me were when the 147 00:08:10,511 --> 00:08:15,911 Speaker 2: Palm Beach County canvassing Board went from the one percent 148 00:08:16,031 --> 00:08:20,671 Speaker 2: test to the full manual recount, because we knew it 149 00:08:20,831 --> 00:08:25,551 Speaker 2: was a county that Gore had covered very well and 150 00:08:25,951 --> 00:08:28,911 Speaker 2: there was a higher presented chance that he might make 151 00:08:28,951 --> 00:08:33,471 Speaker 2: gains that would overturn us. The second time was when 152 00:08:33,471 --> 00:08:40,151 Speaker 2: the Florida Supreme Court stepped in on right before Catherine 153 00:08:40,151 --> 00:08:44,710 Speaker 2: Harris was going to certify, and they basically prevented her 154 00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:47,871 Speaker 2: from certifying. And so those were probably the two worst 155 00:08:47,871 --> 00:08:50,991 Speaker 2: moments for me, because when loser draw, you accept it. 156 00:08:50,991 --> 00:08:53,711 Speaker 2: When it's over, right, it's over, we move on to 157 00:08:53,751 --> 00:08:57,351 Speaker 2: the next campaign. Well, this was never over. This was 158 00:08:57,471 --> 00:09:01,551 Speaker 2: always in perpetually a state of anxiety as to when 159 00:09:01,590 --> 00:09:04,510 Speaker 2: would it be over. And that's just kind of counterintuitive 160 00:09:04,511 --> 00:09:05,511 Speaker 2: to a political operative. 161 00:09:06,471 --> 00:09:09,510 Speaker 1: Why that's specifically counter intuitive to a political operative. 162 00:09:09,471 --> 00:09:13,231 Speaker 2: Because you want an end date, So election day, when 163 00:09:13,271 --> 00:09:16,310 Speaker 2: loser draw, it's over. And then each one of these 164 00:09:16,351 --> 00:09:20,271 Speaker 2: decisions that would extend the election was just kind of 165 00:09:20,310 --> 00:09:23,631 Speaker 2: new territory for me. It didn't compute. What do you mean, 166 00:09:23,670 --> 00:09:27,431 Speaker 2: the campaign's continuing this efforts continuing the election was X 167 00:09:27,511 --> 00:09:31,591 Speaker 2: number of days ago. You know, I was already away 168 00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:34,551 Speaker 2: from my family for six months, and every day was 169 00:09:34,590 --> 00:09:36,871 Speaker 2: just more excruciating that I wasn't with my wife and 170 00:09:36,950 --> 00:09:41,670 Speaker 2: young child. And you know, again, sometimes when you're that exhausted, 171 00:09:42,471 --> 00:09:44,550 Speaker 2: you'll take a loss just because you want it to 172 00:09:44,590 --> 00:09:44,950 Speaker 2: be over. 173 00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:48,391 Speaker 1: I can imagine before we get any further, I wanted 174 00:09:48,430 --> 00:09:51,391 Speaker 1: just to make sure that I understand your job correctly. 175 00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:55,751 Speaker 1: You served as the regional political director from all the 176 00:09:55,751 --> 00:09:58,190 Speaker 1: states that touched the ocean or the Gulf of Mexico. 177 00:09:58,271 --> 00:10:00,950 Speaker 1: Is that right correct? And you had Florida correct? How 178 00:10:01,030 --> 00:10:03,111 Speaker 1: much of your like brain space did Florida take up 179 00:10:03,231 --> 00:10:05,271 Speaker 1: during the campaign leading up to the election. 180 00:10:05,751 --> 00:10:09,751 Speaker 2: It was fifty percent for most of the time, and 181 00:10:09,790 --> 00:10:12,831 Speaker 2: then going into the last month it was ninety percent. 182 00:10:13,751 --> 00:10:16,991 Speaker 1: Was there a time when when it felt to the 183 00:10:16,991 --> 00:10:19,151 Speaker 1: Bush campaign like Florida was in the bag. 184 00:10:20,190 --> 00:10:21,790 Speaker 2: No, we always thought it was competitive. 185 00:10:22,910 --> 00:10:24,231 Speaker 1: You always thought they had a chance there. 186 00:10:24,430 --> 00:10:27,151 Speaker 2: Yeah, we always thought it was competitive. I mean the 187 00:10:27,231 --> 00:10:30,350 Speaker 2: number is too big. I mean there's you look at Florida, 188 00:10:30,391 --> 00:10:34,750 Speaker 2: this very diverse. We had advantages and they had advantages. 189 00:10:35,271 --> 00:10:38,711 Speaker 2: You know, Jeb Bush is the name and the governor, 190 00:10:38,751 --> 00:10:41,990 Speaker 2: and everybody pays attention to that. But you know, you 191 00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:44,111 Speaker 2: had you know, law and Childs had just been the 192 00:10:44,111 --> 00:10:47,750 Speaker 2: governor before him, and you had Democratic US senators. You 193 00:10:47,871 --> 00:10:52,030 Speaker 2: had a balance of huge voter bases in the southeast 194 00:10:52,070 --> 00:10:55,751 Speaker 2: that counterweighted the entire rest of the state. So we 195 00:10:55,830 --> 00:10:58,710 Speaker 2: knew we needed to have turnout in order to be successful. 196 00:10:59,231 --> 00:11:01,831 Speaker 1: It's interesting to hear you say that, because I think 197 00:11:01,871 --> 00:11:05,790 Speaker 1: the Jeb Bush thing. It was what made them, the Democrats, 198 00:11:05,830 --> 00:11:11,231 Speaker 1: or at least the Gore folks in Tallahassee, pretty pretty pessimistic. 199 00:11:12,391 --> 00:11:14,790 Speaker 1: They felt like they gave the Bush campaign an advantage 200 00:11:15,190 --> 00:11:17,111 Speaker 1: that they would were unlikely to overcome. 201 00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:21,110 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, think about it, Florida has had Democratic 202 00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:23,550 Speaker 2: leaders on the state wide level too, and so they 203 00:11:23,550 --> 00:11:28,910 Speaker 2: had just as many major donors, just as many volunteers 204 00:11:29,151 --> 00:11:32,310 Speaker 2: historically that were available to them. They had, you know, 205 00:11:32,471 --> 00:11:35,470 Speaker 2: Bob Butterworth, the Attorney General, was a you know, the 206 00:11:35,950 --> 00:11:38,831 Speaker 2: top ranking Democrat I think on the state level. So 207 00:11:38,950 --> 00:11:41,630 Speaker 2: there's a lot of counterbalances to it. I mean the 208 00:11:41,871 --> 00:11:45,111 Speaker 2: other thing too is from a practical level, Jeb was 209 00:11:45,151 --> 00:11:49,311 Speaker 2: on the state canvassing board, but other than that, he 210 00:11:49,391 --> 00:11:53,070 Speaker 2: had no authority over how the elections were managed at 211 00:11:53,070 --> 00:11:53,830 Speaker 2: the local level. 212 00:11:54,391 --> 00:11:56,830 Speaker 1: And so why I think I think the people I 213 00:11:56,871 --> 00:11:59,191 Speaker 1: talked to were saying more that it was an advantaged 214 00:11:59,271 --> 00:12:02,950 Speaker 1: during the campaign because, for instance, because there were a 215 00:12:02,991 --> 00:12:07,110 Speaker 1: lot of people in Florida who were would be reluctant 216 00:12:07,151 --> 00:12:10,070 Speaker 1: to say donate to Gore because they didn't want, you know, 217 00:12:10,351 --> 00:12:12,871 Speaker 1: to be out of favor with with the governor. 218 00:12:13,631 --> 00:12:17,670 Speaker 2: Well, I think there are some people in that category certainly, 219 00:12:17,751 --> 00:12:20,071 Speaker 2: but there were also equal people that would want to 220 00:12:20,070 --> 00:12:22,231 Speaker 2: be in favor with the incoming president and they would 221 00:12:22,271 --> 00:12:24,990 Speaker 2: be working to get their favor with the Senator Gore. 222 00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:29,591 Speaker 2: And so it again, the state was not clearly a 223 00:12:29,631 --> 00:12:31,631 Speaker 2: red or blue state at the time. There was a 224 00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:32,790 Speaker 2: lot of counterbalance. 225 00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:35,751 Speaker 1: I wonder if there was any sense on your end 226 00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:39,670 Speaker 1: on the Bush side that, like after the convention specifically, 227 00:12:39,751 --> 00:12:45,110 Speaker 1: they seemed to really focus on Florida and really it 228 00:12:45,271 --> 00:12:50,350 Speaker 1: seemed to be in good position there, like post Lieberman's nomination, right, 229 00:12:50,590 --> 00:12:53,950 Speaker 1: which obviously helped there. And then you know, I've been 230 00:12:53,950 --> 00:12:58,631 Speaker 1: talking to folks about how after Jeb Bush's Action education 231 00:12:58,710 --> 00:13:02,030 Speaker 1: policy there was a really really huge surge in African 232 00:13:02,070 --> 00:13:03,350 Speaker 1: American voter registration. 233 00:13:04,430 --> 00:13:07,990 Speaker 2: I would concur with that, And I think technology and 234 00:13:08,030 --> 00:13:10,191 Speaker 2: the way that you had information was just differ for 235 00:13:10,430 --> 00:13:13,471 Speaker 2: twenty years ago, and so a lot of what you 236 00:13:13,550 --> 00:13:17,231 Speaker 2: had was word of mouth and anecdotal and polling. So 237 00:13:17,351 --> 00:13:20,071 Speaker 2: polling was a king at the time, but you could 238 00:13:20,231 --> 00:13:22,830 Speaker 2: measure with a lot of that with any definitive level, 239 00:13:22,910 --> 00:13:25,310 Speaker 2: and really not until we changed it in two thousand 240 00:13:25,310 --> 00:13:28,231 Speaker 2: and four and then Obama changed it to another ratchet. 241 00:13:28,271 --> 00:13:31,430 Speaker 2: It to another level. You really couldn't tell your intensity. 242 00:13:31,871 --> 00:13:35,591 Speaker 2: So we gazed our intensity by the absentee ballot program, 243 00:13:35,710 --> 00:13:38,311 Speaker 2: and we had a very extensive absentee ballot program with 244 00:13:38,391 --> 00:13:42,151 Speaker 2: a large turnout, and we thought we were doing extremely well. 245 00:13:42,590 --> 00:13:46,950 Speaker 2: And our Miami Dade kind of on the ground organizer, 246 00:13:47,910 --> 00:13:51,871 Speaker 2: Cuban Fella, did tell me now in retrospect, you know, 247 00:13:52,030 --> 00:13:56,710 Speaker 2: nineteen years later, that he did not anticipate the large 248 00:13:56,790 --> 00:14:00,591 Speaker 2: numbers of African Americans and the turnout to match hours 249 00:14:01,231 --> 00:14:04,151 Speaker 2: because he was so focused on it, and because Eleon 250 00:14:04,271 --> 00:14:08,351 Speaker 2: Gonzales situation was so intense and there was so much 251 00:14:08,391 --> 00:14:11,711 Speaker 2: of a fervor, they thought that, you know, our intensity 252 00:14:11,751 --> 00:14:15,191 Speaker 2: couldn't be matched. And then on election day they did 253 00:14:15,231 --> 00:14:17,351 Speaker 2: match it, and I mean it turned out to be 254 00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:19,591 Speaker 2: neck and neck all the way up and down. So 255 00:14:19,631 --> 00:14:22,751 Speaker 2: I think he was probably a little surprised, only because 256 00:14:22,991 --> 00:14:24,991 Speaker 2: he was so focused on our side and he knew 257 00:14:24,991 --> 00:14:28,191 Speaker 2: we had an intensity. It wasn't that he underestimated. I 258 00:14:28,231 --> 00:14:31,751 Speaker 2: just don't think he was even aware of it. 259 00:14:31,191 --> 00:14:33,470 Speaker 1: It's really satisfied to talk to you about this, and 260 00:14:33,511 --> 00:14:36,151 Speaker 1: it's like, this is exactly the feeling we've been trying 261 00:14:36,151 --> 00:14:38,271 Speaker 1: to conjure in the in the show, just that like 262 00:14:38,551 --> 00:14:41,231 Speaker 1: there's so many little things that could be determinative. 263 00:14:41,751 --> 00:14:44,071 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, when there's I mean, when there's five 264 00:14:44,151 --> 00:14:47,311 Speaker 2: hundred and thirty seven votes out of six million casts, 265 00:14:48,151 --> 00:14:50,871 Speaker 2: you know, I probably can't even fathom all the different 266 00:14:50,871 --> 00:14:54,831 Speaker 2: things that really could have affected it. From a state 267 00:14:54,911 --> 00:14:59,471 Speaker 2: the size and is geographically diverse in two time zones 268 00:14:59,471 --> 00:15:02,391 Speaker 2: as Florida, who knows what could have happened. That's why 269 00:15:02,830 --> 00:15:05,831 Speaker 2: when we argue about the early call in the Central 270 00:15:05,830 --> 00:15:09,111 Speaker 2: time zone, how many votes does that affect? How many 271 00:15:09,111 --> 00:15:11,631 Speaker 2: people turned around, didn't go to the polling stations in 272 00:15:11,671 --> 00:15:15,111 Speaker 2: the Panhandle or left or whatever because they felt like 273 00:15:15,151 --> 00:15:16,110 Speaker 2: it was a lost cause. 274 00:15:16,191 --> 00:15:18,710 Speaker 1: I've seen some Republicans say there was like ten thousand votes, 275 00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:19,951 Speaker 1: which strikes me as a little bit. 276 00:15:20,271 --> 00:15:24,830 Speaker 2: It was a billion. You No, I can't quantify it. 277 00:15:41,871 --> 00:15:44,311 Speaker 1: So just let's let's le's boom zoom forward a little 278 00:15:44,311 --> 00:15:50,230 Speaker 1: bit to the actual recount period. What was your understanding 279 00:15:50,311 --> 00:15:53,951 Speaker 1: of what the Democrats were doing? Like did you think 280 00:15:53,991 --> 00:15:58,551 Speaker 1: they were trying to steal the election? Did it that 281 00:15:58,590 --> 00:16:00,471 Speaker 1: what it felt like or how did you conceive of 282 00:16:00,830 --> 00:16:01,671 Speaker 1: like what they were up to? 283 00:16:02,791 --> 00:16:05,951 Speaker 2: We felt like we had won and when we got 284 00:16:05,991 --> 00:16:08,951 Speaker 2: there and there were all these contests and all these questions, 285 00:16:09,031 --> 00:16:11,791 Speaker 2: we thought that they were an effort in place to 286 00:16:11,830 --> 00:16:16,031 Speaker 2: steal the election. And I say that with the political 287 00:16:16,471 --> 00:16:20,111 Speaker 2: hyperbole that it is I personally the way I would 288 00:16:20,111 --> 00:16:22,511 Speaker 2: describe it just day to day, I would say that, 289 00:16:22,631 --> 00:16:24,271 Speaker 2: you know, we thought we had the lead, and they 290 00:16:24,311 --> 00:16:29,351 Speaker 2: were taking efforts to you know, to change the rules 291 00:16:29,391 --> 00:16:31,591 Speaker 2: that they would They were trying every way they could 292 00:16:31,671 --> 00:16:35,111 Speaker 2: to win, which is what you do. But you know, 293 00:16:35,351 --> 00:16:38,991 Speaker 2: using the word stealing the election is just political hyperbole, 294 00:16:39,071 --> 00:16:41,631 Speaker 2: and I don't usually use that, but I definitely felt 295 00:16:41,671 --> 00:16:46,151 Speaker 2: that emotion at the time. I mean, the rules were 296 00:16:46,151 --> 00:16:49,271 Speaker 2: the rules the day of election, and every time that 297 00:16:49,311 --> 00:16:52,791 Speaker 2: there was a standard that was changed or a court 298 00:16:52,830 --> 00:16:56,750 Speaker 2: decision that reset certain parameters, we felt like they were 299 00:16:56,830 --> 00:16:58,351 Speaker 2: changing the rules after the election. 300 00:16:59,471 --> 00:17:00,271 Speaker 1: What rules. 301 00:17:00,710 --> 00:17:05,231 Speaker 2: So the butterfly ballot from the first twenty four hours 302 00:17:05,271 --> 00:17:10,791 Speaker 2: and so on had become a political they were they 303 00:17:10,830 --> 00:17:17,271 Speaker 2: were a political controversy. Rather so the the idea that 304 00:17:18,110 --> 00:17:21,710 Speaker 2: you know, the election was not held in an appropriate 305 00:17:21,711 --> 00:17:24,751 Speaker 2: fashion just didn't we We didn't agree with that that 306 00:17:24,830 --> 00:17:28,311 Speaker 2: the butterfly ballot had been agreed to by the canvassing board. 307 00:17:28,830 --> 00:17:32,110 Speaker 2: You know that in a county that was largely controlled 308 00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:35,590 Speaker 2: by local Democrats, a canvassing board that was you know, 309 00:17:35,791 --> 00:17:41,110 Speaker 2: one elected official and two Democrats, and so we felt 310 00:17:41,191 --> 00:17:46,071 Speaker 2: that there was no inherent Jeb Bush you know, fixed 311 00:17:46,110 --> 00:17:49,630 Speaker 2: to change, you know Palm Beach. That actually was the reverse, 312 00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:52,190 Speaker 2: is that the county officials were the ones that had 313 00:17:52,231 --> 00:17:54,791 Speaker 2: determined the voting methods, and so if there was a 314 00:17:54,791 --> 00:17:57,870 Speaker 2: disadvantage to Gore, it was probably a mistake, not an 315 00:17:57,911 --> 00:17:59,110 Speaker 2: intentional issue. 316 00:17:59,711 --> 00:18:01,750 Speaker 1: I know this sounds cheesy, but I'm curious just if 317 00:18:01,751 --> 00:18:03,551 Speaker 1: you could describe from sort of what it felt like 318 00:18:03,711 --> 00:18:05,951 Speaker 1: to be on the receiving end of what you perceived 319 00:18:05,991 --> 00:18:09,910 Speaker 1: to be an attempt to do something really unfair. 320 00:18:10,671 --> 00:18:13,551 Speaker 2: You know, Leon, to some degree, there wasn't a whole 321 00:18:13,551 --> 00:18:16,911 Speaker 2: lot of feeling. You were just plowing through your day 322 00:18:17,551 --> 00:18:20,350 Speaker 2: trying to figure out what a task you had accomplish. 323 00:18:20,590 --> 00:18:23,951 Speaker 2: You know, what was the situation, How many people did 324 00:18:23,991 --> 00:18:25,271 Speaker 2: you have to get in the room, you know, that 325 00:18:25,390 --> 00:18:28,671 Speaker 2: level of basic logistics. There wasn't a whole lot of feeling. 326 00:18:28,911 --> 00:18:31,791 Speaker 2: And then you know, you're working twenty hour days and 327 00:18:31,870 --> 00:18:33,511 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, there wasn't much time 328 00:18:33,511 --> 00:18:37,111 Speaker 2: for feeling because you were just basically falling exhausted into 329 00:18:37,150 --> 00:18:40,590 Speaker 2: a hotel room. I mean it was chaos for me 330 00:18:40,751 --> 00:18:44,271 Speaker 2: personally too, because I had packed for three days. I 331 00:18:44,311 --> 00:18:47,830 Speaker 2: went to one hotel and I changed in the first 332 00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:52,150 Speaker 2: three days, I changed three different hotels because they weren't 333 00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:56,950 Speaker 2: booking them for thirty six days. The logistics people, or 334 00:18:57,071 --> 00:18:59,630 Speaker 2: even when I would just go sometimes to find an 335 00:18:59,671 --> 00:19:01,991 Speaker 2: open hotel, they were like, say, how long are you 336 00:19:01,991 --> 00:19:05,350 Speaker 2: gonna stay? And I would have to guess, you know, 337 00:19:05,471 --> 00:19:08,511 Speaker 2: I'm not sure, maybe a week this time, and that 338 00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:11,191 Speaker 2: you had to restart. I got kicked out of one 339 00:19:11,191 --> 00:19:15,110 Speaker 2: hotel one time in Palm Beach because of a girl 340 00:19:15,431 --> 00:19:18,911 Speaker 2: softball tournament had come in and they would only book 341 00:19:18,951 --> 00:19:22,271 Speaker 2: me up to like Saturday, And I said, but I 342 00:19:22,311 --> 00:19:24,271 Speaker 2: have to stay through Sunday and they said, well tough. 343 00:19:24,951 --> 00:19:26,630 Speaker 1: Well, I know a lot of people got displaced in 344 00:19:26,671 --> 00:19:29,951 Speaker 1: Tallahassee because of the Florida State game. Yeah, and they 345 00:19:29,951 --> 00:19:31,910 Speaker 1: had to because I guess you will rent those hotel 346 00:19:31,991 --> 00:19:33,351 Speaker 1: rooms like a year in advance. 347 00:19:33,711 --> 00:19:34,671 Speaker 2: Football is important. 348 00:19:34,791 --> 00:19:39,791 Speaker 1: Yeah. So one thing I'm interested in was this idea 349 00:19:39,991 --> 00:19:43,911 Speaker 1: that the approach that the Bush side or the Republican 350 00:19:43,991 --> 00:19:47,350 Speaker 1: side took during the recount process during those thirty six 351 00:19:47,431 --> 00:19:51,470 Speaker 1: days was sort of a new thing for them. You know. 352 00:19:51,630 --> 00:19:54,791 Speaker 1: Before the mid nineties, sure, Democrats were the ones who 353 00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:56,590 Speaker 1: were sort of better at you know, on the ground 354 00:19:56,991 --> 00:19:59,110 Speaker 1: activism or whatever, and that this election kind of changed 355 00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:59,631 Speaker 1: that a little bit. 356 00:19:59,711 --> 00:20:03,830 Speaker 2: From my perspective, in the nineties, we were looking at 357 00:20:03,870 --> 00:20:07,551 Speaker 2: a historical perspective where Republicans had not had complete control 358 00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:12,350 Speaker 2: of Congress, meeting both House and Senate for probably four decades, 359 00:20:12,991 --> 00:20:16,231 Speaker 2: and it wasn't until ninety four when that was my 360 00:20:17,071 --> 00:20:21,391 Speaker 2: first real election in Georgia. Were working around new gamers 361 00:20:21,390 --> 00:20:25,230 Speaker 2: and those folks when we took control of Congress, and 362 00:20:25,271 --> 00:20:28,430 Speaker 2: that was historic because it had been decades since that 363 00:20:28,590 --> 00:20:33,590 Speaker 2: change had happened. And part of the political structure was 364 00:20:34,231 --> 00:20:37,710 Speaker 2: Republicans had this, you know persona of being you know, 365 00:20:38,110 --> 00:20:43,231 Speaker 2: presidential white, you know, more wealthy, economically oriented, and Democrats 366 00:20:43,271 --> 00:20:47,350 Speaker 2: were viewed as more bootstrap union, you know, working on 367 00:20:47,390 --> 00:20:51,711 Speaker 2: the ground kind of people. And Republican campaigns during that 368 00:20:51,751 --> 00:20:54,791 Speaker 2: period were learning how to go knock on doors and 369 00:20:54,830 --> 00:20:57,150 Speaker 2: do more of that type of stuff. But we really 370 00:20:57,150 --> 00:21:01,670 Speaker 2: depended institutionally on direct mail and phone calls and television ads. 371 00:21:02,311 --> 00:21:05,630 Speaker 2: Well newt in that quote revolution started that change, but 372 00:21:05,711 --> 00:21:10,311 Speaker 2: it didn't really come to fruition until after the two 373 00:21:10,350 --> 00:21:13,911 Speaker 2: thousand election because that was that kind of wake up 374 00:21:13,991 --> 00:21:19,711 Speaker 2: call that institutionally, the RNC and the political organizations outside 375 00:21:19,711 --> 00:21:22,551 Speaker 2: of you know where like New York or Ohio, or 376 00:21:22,590 --> 00:21:27,431 Speaker 2: those political organizations that existed forever in new places like Georgia, 377 00:21:27,471 --> 00:21:30,391 Speaker 2: the Republican Party hadn't really existed, so we didn't have 378 00:21:30,471 --> 00:21:34,151 Speaker 2: the same kind of level grassroots. So in that two 379 00:21:34,191 --> 00:21:37,271 Speaker 2: thousand election, we had the opinion that if we got 380 00:21:37,271 --> 00:21:40,190 Speaker 2: into a scrap on the ground that we were going 381 00:21:40,231 --> 00:21:42,071 Speaker 2: to get out numbered, that they were just going to 382 00:21:42,150 --> 00:21:45,591 Speaker 2: institutionally have a better ground game than we did. And 383 00:21:45,630 --> 00:21:47,071 Speaker 2: so we countered. 384 00:21:46,590 --> 00:21:48,950 Speaker 1: That, say you what does ground game mean? During the 385 00:21:48,991 --> 00:21:51,190 Speaker 1: recount though, like the campaign's over, like what do you 386 00:21:51,311 --> 00:21:52,311 Speaker 1: what's what's there to do? 387 00:21:52,911 --> 00:21:55,910 Speaker 2: Well, we had to learn so some of that was 388 00:21:56,150 --> 00:21:59,951 Speaker 2: just an unknown, but we made the assumption that they 389 00:21:59,951 --> 00:22:03,151 Speaker 2: were going to be better organized by filling those roles 390 00:22:03,991 --> 00:22:07,311 Speaker 2: once we found them out. And so as we started 391 00:22:07,390 --> 00:22:11,471 Speaker 2: learning what those roles were, we we filled volunteers in 392 00:22:11,511 --> 00:22:15,791 Speaker 2: from every direction. So there's been a lot of historical 393 00:22:15,870 --> 00:22:18,151 Speaker 2: view of the people who flew in from out of 394 00:22:18,191 --> 00:22:21,870 Speaker 2: the state, but those were only a small subjection of 395 00:22:21,911 --> 00:22:24,511 Speaker 2: the total people that were volunteers. I can tell you 396 00:22:24,590 --> 00:22:28,111 Speaker 2: for a fact, on the ground, particularly those first few 397 00:22:28,150 --> 00:22:31,230 Speaker 2: days before planes could start flying in with other folks, 398 00:22:32,311 --> 00:22:35,630 Speaker 2: ninety percent of the volunteers we had doing counting at 399 00:22:35,671 --> 00:22:39,551 Speaker 2: the Emergency Operation Center were local Florida people. And then 400 00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:41,590 Speaker 2: over time it probably evened out to a little bit 401 00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:45,110 Speaker 2: more fifty to fifty. And as a counting process was 402 00:22:45,150 --> 00:22:47,830 Speaker 2: going along for more than a week or so, we 403 00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:49,630 Speaker 2: would see we had a little bit of a system 404 00:22:49,630 --> 00:22:50,430 Speaker 2: that would get worked out. 405 00:22:50,471 --> 00:22:52,631 Speaker 1: You're talking about the partisan the deservers. 406 00:22:52,431 --> 00:22:57,511 Speaker 2: Yes, but we didn't have one of those political organizations 407 00:22:57,511 --> 00:23:00,830 Speaker 2: built at that level in Florida. We had an educations 408 00:23:00,951 --> 00:23:04,471 Speaker 2: for Bush chair in every county. We had a veteran 409 00:23:04,590 --> 00:23:07,951 Speaker 2: for Bush chair in every county. We had those law 410 00:23:07,991 --> 00:23:12,071 Speaker 2: enforcement you know, for Bush organization in every county. But 411 00:23:12,110 --> 00:23:15,271 Speaker 2: that was like a few people. We needed like literally 412 00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:18,991 Speaker 2: hundreds of people to show up, and we threw everything 413 00:23:19,031 --> 00:23:21,350 Speaker 2: we could at it, and we did feel like that 414 00:23:21,390 --> 00:23:24,630 Speaker 2: the Democrats would have the advantage, but it didn't end 415 00:23:24,711 --> 00:23:27,791 Speaker 2: up being that way. I look back at it now, 416 00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:30,151 Speaker 2: and I feel like we at least countered and then 417 00:23:30,191 --> 00:23:33,590 Speaker 2: even to some points we actually outdid the Gore effort 418 00:23:33,870 --> 00:23:37,991 Speaker 2: on that kind of local, grassroots bootstrap kind of a campaign. 419 00:23:38,471 --> 00:23:41,231 Speaker 1: All right, And I want to ask you one last 420 00:23:41,311 --> 00:23:47,031 Speaker 1: question here. I haven't really no particularly strong instinct one 421 00:23:47,031 --> 00:23:48,471 Speaker 1: way or the other as to whether you know Bus 422 00:23:48,511 --> 00:23:50,110 Speaker 1: should have won or Gore should have won, or whether 423 00:23:50,110 --> 00:23:53,670 Speaker 1: it was I just I sincerely just don't know and 424 00:23:53,991 --> 00:23:58,191 Speaker 1: haven't known. But I've noticed myself sort of gravitating towards 425 00:23:58,630 --> 00:24:01,190 Speaker 1: the Gore perspective, and as I'm writing the show, and 426 00:24:01,231 --> 00:24:03,390 Speaker 1: I've been wondering why. And it's not because I think, 427 00:24:03,630 --> 00:24:05,151 Speaker 1: you know, it's not because I wanted Gore to win. 428 00:24:05,431 --> 00:24:08,870 Speaker 1: It's because I think that it's because he lost, and 429 00:24:08,911 --> 00:24:12,391 Speaker 1: because he was the one trying to reduce the margin 430 00:24:12,431 --> 00:24:16,751 Speaker 1: and while Bush was just defending his margin, that there's 431 00:24:16,991 --> 00:24:21,311 Speaker 1: sort of more inherently more interesting or inherently more dramatic story. 432 00:24:21,471 --> 00:24:23,870 Speaker 1: And I'm curious if you've in reading the books you 433 00:24:23,870 --> 00:24:25,750 Speaker 1: know that have been written about this, and watching Recount 434 00:24:25,791 --> 00:24:27,791 Speaker 1: and other other documentaries that have been made about this, 435 00:24:28,830 --> 00:24:31,631 Speaker 1: do you feel like the Gore perspective is favored and 436 00:24:31,870 --> 00:24:33,590 Speaker 1: do you think that the reaction that I'm having is 437 00:24:34,350 --> 00:24:35,831 Speaker 1: in any way sort of related to it. 438 00:24:36,671 --> 00:24:39,311 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it makes makes perfect sense that it would 439 00:24:39,311 --> 00:24:43,871 Speaker 2: be more dramatic and be more intriguing because quote, what 440 00:24:43,911 --> 00:24:46,510 Speaker 2: don't what don't we know or what could have changed 441 00:24:46,551 --> 00:24:50,590 Speaker 2: to have changed the outcome? And you know, I'm pretty 442 00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:53,551 Speaker 2: confident that we vetted it about as thoroughly as you 443 00:24:53,590 --> 00:24:57,110 Speaker 2: possibly could. And the question is still it was really, really, 444 00:24:57,231 --> 00:25:01,111 Speaker 2: really close, and Bush barely narrowed him out, but he 445 00:25:01,150 --> 00:25:03,791 Speaker 2: did in fact narrow him out at every point in time, 446 00:25:04,311 --> 00:25:07,231 Speaker 2: so there was a lot of counterbalance. But on election 447 00:25:07,390 --> 00:25:11,711 Speaker 2: day we had the win, and all the way through 448 00:25:12,231 --> 00:25:15,910 Speaker 2: through Catherine Harris certifying and all the legal cases, the 449 00:25:16,471 --> 00:25:20,870 Speaker 2: count never changed to favor Gore. So I have every 450 00:25:20,951 --> 00:25:27,551 Speaker 2: confidence that we won by the narrowest of margins. But 451 00:25:28,271 --> 00:25:30,911 Speaker 2: it's not as much fun to say, Okay, it's over. 452 00:25:31,511 --> 00:25:35,031 Speaker 2: You know, you're looking at this because people do still 453 00:25:35,031 --> 00:25:39,391 Speaker 2: have a question in their mind. So if you're intellectually curious, 454 00:25:39,471 --> 00:25:42,390 Speaker 2: you could continue to just say, well, what if what 455 00:25:42,431 --> 00:25:44,551 Speaker 2: if that had changed? Or what if this had changed? 456 00:25:45,071 --> 00:25:47,751 Speaker 2: And you're exactly right, but what if it is done? 457 00:25:47,870 --> 00:25:49,150 Speaker 2: When the election is over? 458 00:25:51,870 --> 00:25:55,031 Speaker 1: Brian, this is such a pleasure, a truly unique interviewer, 459 00:25:55,390 --> 00:25:57,350 Speaker 1: to be able to talk to someone who's who's seen 460 00:25:57,390 --> 00:26:00,031 Speaker 1: it from from both inside and outside. The way you're 461 00:26:00,071 --> 00:26:01,031 Speaker 1: doing with this oral history. 462 00:26:01,271 --> 00:26:04,511 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you I was I was not sure 463 00:26:04,551 --> 00:26:07,071 Speaker 2: if I wanted to do this. I listened to your 464 00:26:07,471 --> 00:26:12,231 Speaker 2: Clinton Lewinsky podcast burn and was very impressed. I thought 465 00:26:12,271 --> 00:26:14,470 Speaker 2: you did a great job. Thank you so much, and 466 00:26:14,551 --> 00:26:16,150 Speaker 2: I enjoyed it, and I hope you do as good 467 00:26:16,191 --> 00:26:16,671 Speaker 2: a job with. 468 00:26:16,590 --> 00:26:20,991 Speaker 1: This me too. Thanks again. I look forward to someday 469 00:26:20,991 --> 00:26:22,871 Speaker 1: hoping to hear those interviews. 470 00:26:22,911 --> 00:26:32,071 Speaker 2: Okay, great, all right, Thanks bye. 471 00:26:34,231 --> 00:26:37,590 Speaker 1: Fiasco. Bush v. Gore is produced by Prologue Projects and 472 00:26:37,630 --> 00:26:41,031 Speaker 1: distributed by Pushkin Industries. The show is produced by Mattewan, 473 00:26:41,071 --> 00:26:45,430 Speaker 1: kaplan Ulla Culpa, Andrew Parsons and me Leon Nafok. We 474 00:26:45,471 --> 00:26:48,791 Speaker 1: had additional editorial support from Lisa Chase and Daniel Riley. 475 00:26:49,630 --> 00:26:51,231 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next week.