1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:22,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:22,036 --> 00:00:25,356 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:25,916 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Felton. For the next two weeks, We're going 4 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:33,156 Speaker 1: to try something a little different. Over the past year, 5 00:00:33,556 --> 00:00:37,756 Speaker 1: I've been having conversations with experts across the ideological spectrum 6 00:00:37,796 --> 00:00:40,516 Speaker 1: about a topic that I care a lot about, the 7 00:00:40,636 --> 00:00:45,556 Speaker 1: freedom of speech. I am extremely excited to share them 8 00:00:45,636 --> 00:00:49,596 Speaker 1: with you now, and one positive side effect of being 9 00:00:49,596 --> 00:00:51,716 Speaker 1: able to do so is that it will give a 10 00:00:51,796 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: chance for our hard working producer, shore Runner here a 11 00:00:55,676 --> 00:01:00,396 Speaker 1: Deep Background, to have a little summer break. This episode 12 00:01:00,516 --> 00:01:08,516 Speaker 1: in our Free Speech series is about cancel culture. The 13 00:01:08,596 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 1: idea of quote canceling someone is itself relatively new. One 14 00:01:13,756 --> 00:01:15,716 Speaker 1: of the first times the word was used in this 15 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:19,356 Speaker 1: way was in the nineteen ninety one action movie New 16 00:01:19,476 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: Jack City. I Know I'm Dating Myself Now, in which 17 00:01:22,116 --> 00:01:25,276 Speaker 1: Wesley Snipes plays a drug lord and actually says it 18 00:01:25,436 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 1: about his girlfriend can pitch. The idea of canceling someone 19 00:01:33,596 --> 00:01:38,076 Speaker 1: then pretty slowly made its way into pop culture, first 20 00:01:38,236 --> 00:01:42,076 Speaker 1: used in a humorous way and then eventually more seriously. 21 00:01:42,876 --> 00:01:46,676 Speaker 1: Osita Jenevu, a writer at the New Republic, wrote a 22 00:01:46,716 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 1: really insightful article about this phenomenon called the cancel culture Khan. 23 00:01:52,836 --> 00:01:56,516 Speaker 1: He's been following the evolution of the term. I spoke 24 00:01:56,556 --> 00:01:59,996 Speaker 1: to Osita back in February, when the public debate around 25 00:02:00,076 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 1: cancil culture was really gaining steam. Here's Osita's take. A 26 00:02:06,036 --> 00:02:10,076 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, before cancel culture was a phrase 27 00:02:10,076 --> 00:02:13,636 Speaker 1: in circulation, you would see people on Twitter, especially sort 28 00:02:13,676 --> 00:02:17,876 Speaker 1: of ironically say that things had been canceled. Pop star 29 00:02:17,956 --> 00:02:21,196 Speaker 1: disappointed you in some way, or that person's canceled. There's 30 00:02:21,196 --> 00:02:26,316 Speaker 1: a popular shift of celebrity on Twitter pointing to a 31 00:02:26,396 --> 00:02:28,876 Speaker 1: coffee machine and had been broken and saying, oh, that's 32 00:02:28,916 --> 00:02:31,316 Speaker 1: canceled out. You know. It was that kind of usage. 33 00:02:31,556 --> 00:02:33,276 Speaker 1: And one I think it's interesting about that to me 34 00:02:33,476 --> 00:02:37,796 Speaker 1: is the phrase political correctness originally emerged in a very 35 00:02:37,836 --> 00:02:40,796 Speaker 1: similar way. People in the New Left in the late 36 00:02:40,836 --> 00:02:45,036 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies began using it as a way of describing 37 00:02:45,356 --> 00:02:48,796 Speaker 1: a kind of orthodoxy or political orthodoxy within their circles. 38 00:02:48,956 --> 00:02:51,476 Speaker 1: It's a politically correct thing to believe X, Y and z. 39 00:02:52,276 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 1: But then it got picked up by conservatives. He used 40 00:02:55,516 --> 00:02:59,356 Speaker 1: it earnestly to describe ideological tendencies on the left that 41 00:02:59,396 --> 00:03:01,676 Speaker 1: they didn't like. So I think in a very similar 42 00:03:02,196 --> 00:03:05,676 Speaker 1: way we see now with cancelation cancel culture. I think 43 00:03:05,716 --> 00:03:10,556 Speaker 1: that kind of mirrors the way that that terminology has emerged. 44 00:03:10,916 --> 00:03:13,116 Speaker 1: That's totally fascinating. Can I just say, as a purely 45 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:15,916 Speaker 1: linguistic matter, the reason this is so fascinating is when 46 00:03:15,996 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 1: we think about appropriation of phrases, we're kind of acclimated 47 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:23,756 Speaker 1: to be thinking about cases where you have a term 48 00:03:23,796 --> 00:03:26,956 Speaker 1: that is a racist term, or is enophobic term, or 49 00:03:26,996 --> 00:03:29,556 Speaker 1: some other form of bias a homophobic term, and then 50 00:03:29,596 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: the group that is subject to bias appropriates the term, 51 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:38,676 Speaker 1: repurposes it and makes it a term of pride. You know. 52 00:03:38,716 --> 00:03:41,076 Speaker 1: The term queer is the sort of archetypal example of 53 00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:43,436 Speaker 1: this where this happened in my lifetime when I was 54 00:03:43,476 --> 00:03:46,876 Speaker 1: a kid, Queer was solely at least an ordinary discourse, 55 00:03:47,196 --> 00:03:50,556 Speaker 1: a homophobic insult, and then it came to be taken 56 00:03:50,596 --> 00:03:53,316 Speaker 1: over in the process of act up in the movement 57 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:56,276 Speaker 1: against AIDS as a statement of pride, so it went 58 00:03:56,836 --> 00:04:02,516 Speaker 1: from badness to self appropriation. In this case, this is 59 00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:04,556 Speaker 1: actually really fascinating. You're saying that the movement is the 60 00:04:04,636 --> 00:04:07,316 Speaker 1: other way it starts with an ironic self description by 61 00:04:07,316 --> 00:04:09,836 Speaker 1: the in group that sort of light heart did, and 62 00:04:09,876 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 1: then comes to be as it were appropriated by the outgroup, 63 00:04:14,236 --> 00:04:16,796 Speaker 1: and then it gets reaffied as an actual thing. That's 64 00:04:16,836 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: a great point that you're making right there. That's certainly 65 00:04:19,116 --> 00:04:21,556 Speaker 1: my understanding the history of the phrase political correctness. And 66 00:04:21,556 --> 00:04:24,756 Speaker 1: I think that's particularly interesting to me is that in 67 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:29,396 Speaker 1: that translation, or in that appropriation by the right, you 68 00:04:29,516 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: lose all of the iron it. You lose the sense 69 00:04:31,396 --> 00:04:35,156 Speaker 1: that when people originally use the phrase political correctness, they 70 00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:41,076 Speaker 1: were saying something self aware about themselves and their tendency 71 00:04:41,116 --> 00:04:44,196 Speaker 1: to get carried away about certain things. Right, it was 72 00:04:44,236 --> 00:04:48,196 Speaker 1: an acknowledgments within those circles. That's some of the things 73 00:04:48,196 --> 00:04:51,516 Speaker 1: that they believed or said, you know, we're a little wacky. 74 00:04:51,756 --> 00:04:54,676 Speaker 1: But they could be humorous about it, and they're aware 75 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:57,516 Speaker 1: of it, and they could criticize it. But when it 76 00:04:57,556 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 1: moves over to the right, you don't just have the 77 00:05:00,516 --> 00:05:03,596 Speaker 1: phrase shift over it, but you lose the sense that 78 00:05:03,636 --> 00:05:06,156 Speaker 1: you were talking about a group of people that is 79 00:05:06,196 --> 00:05:09,716 Speaker 1: capable of self criticism, and it's capable of the knowledging 80 00:05:09,756 --> 00:05:13,596 Speaker 1: its own limitations, and you start believing in earnest, and 81 00:05:13,756 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 1: these are people who are wildly doctrinaire about crazy out 82 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:22,556 Speaker 1: there identity political beliefs, with no sense of self awareness. 83 00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:24,516 Speaker 1: I think that's the thing that's so striking to me 84 00:05:24,556 --> 00:05:28,476 Speaker 1: about that shift, and I think that with cancel culture 85 00:05:29,396 --> 00:05:32,196 Speaker 1: there is also that self awareness now where people will, 86 00:05:32,636 --> 00:05:34,996 Speaker 1: partially as a reaction to the way that this has 87 00:05:34,996 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 1: become a discourse, will sort of jokingly say they're about 88 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:43,196 Speaker 1: counseling somebody for making a particular joke that is like 89 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:46,236 Speaker 1: just over the edge, but not really that's the offensive. 90 00:05:46,836 --> 00:05:48,636 Speaker 1: There is no a serious use of it as well, right, 91 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:50,876 Speaker 1: I mean, so I completely buy what you're saying. And 92 00:05:51,036 --> 00:05:54,836 Speaker 1: a huge number of the uses of cancel are clearly 93 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:59,116 Speaker 1: intended lightheartedly or ironically, and certainly when critics of cancel 94 00:05:59,196 --> 00:06:01,876 Speaker 1: culture say that everyone has been canceled, part of the 95 00:06:01,916 --> 00:06:03,796 Speaker 1: reason for that is that people are using the term 96 00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:06,996 Speaker 1: sometimes in this lighter way. But there is some phenomenon 97 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:11,116 Speaker 1: of people on Twitter using the term non ironically. Yes, 98 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:13,676 Speaker 1: what when do you see that getting used and what 99 00:06:13,756 --> 00:06:16,676 Speaker 1: trends do you see in that usage. I think that 100 00:06:16,756 --> 00:06:18,996 Speaker 1: when Chappelle came out this special, you know, it was 101 00:06:19,036 --> 00:06:21,876 Speaker 1: a good example of this. People were offended by some 102 00:06:21,916 --> 00:06:23,956 Speaker 1: of the things you said about transgender people and the 103 00:06:24,036 --> 00:06:26,156 Speaker 1: jokes made by Michael Jackson. And I'm sure if you 104 00:06:27,196 --> 00:06:30,076 Speaker 1: saw videos that were being posted on Twitter on the 105 00:06:30,276 --> 00:06:32,756 Speaker 1: social media's time, you'd see in the comments people saying, well, 106 00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:35,076 Speaker 1: now Chappelle is canceled, and they'd mean it. You know, 107 00:06:35,156 --> 00:06:37,716 Speaker 1: they didn't mean that the special would literally be canceled, 108 00:06:37,796 --> 00:06:40,116 Speaker 1: because it wasn't. But they may have meant that they 109 00:06:40,116 --> 00:06:41,996 Speaker 1: would like that to be the case, or they may 110 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:44,796 Speaker 1: just have meant that they personally were canceling him in 111 00:06:44,836 --> 00:06:46,916 Speaker 1: the sense that he was now out of their pantheon 112 00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:49,756 Speaker 1: of comedians that they would listen to. So it's really unclear, right, Like, 113 00:06:49,796 --> 00:06:53,356 Speaker 1: I don't know that most of the people who use 114 00:06:53,436 --> 00:06:58,756 Speaker 1: the term would say, well, now Chappelle should literally be 115 00:06:58,996 --> 00:07:01,676 Speaker 1: like the special should be pulled from Netflix and Chappelle 116 00:07:01,756 --> 00:07:04,796 Speaker 1: should be removed from all of his contracts. But I 117 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:07,476 Speaker 1: think it's most of the time it's people saying personally 118 00:07:07,556 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 1: to them, as far as they're concerned, Chappelle is no 119 00:07:11,036 --> 00:07:14,276 Speaker 1: longer good in their eyes. So you know, that's that's 120 00:07:14,436 --> 00:07:16,516 Speaker 1: that's a real thing, and it's a real way that 121 00:07:16,596 --> 00:07:19,396 Speaker 1: people use the phrase, I think one of the things, 122 00:07:19,476 --> 00:07:21,116 Speaker 1: I guess the main thing really I'm trying to get 123 00:07:21,116 --> 00:07:24,556 Speaker 1: out in the pieces to what extents are we watching 124 00:07:25,236 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 1: a sort of new phenomenon in these critiques? Is it 125 00:07:31,196 --> 00:07:34,636 Speaker 1: really the case that there is a new culture of 126 00:07:34,676 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 1: criticism that's emerged that is uniquely and troublingly unsparing and 127 00:07:41,996 --> 00:07:45,196 Speaker 1: un empathetic, or is it take case that we are 128 00:07:45,236 --> 00:07:49,476 Speaker 1: seeing forms of criticism that have always sort of been 129 00:07:49,516 --> 00:07:54,436 Speaker 1: around translated into a new medium on social media and 130 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:57,956 Speaker 1: that is sort of upsetting people's understanding of the line 131 00:07:57,956 --> 00:08:01,676 Speaker 1: between creators and artists and their audience and journalists and 132 00:08:01,676 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 1: their readers. And are we basically just watching technology transform 133 00:08:05,996 --> 00:08:11,476 Speaker 1: something that already existed into a new and unfamiliar and 134 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:16,556 Speaker 1: kind of scary seeming novelty. And your argument is that 135 00:08:16,716 --> 00:08:19,116 Speaker 1: very much it's the latter that we've always had, you know, 136 00:08:19,116 --> 00:08:22,356 Speaker 1: people saying, cancel my subscription, or we've had people engaging 137 00:08:22,356 --> 00:08:25,196 Speaker 1: in systematic criticism or saying, you know, such and such 138 00:08:25,236 --> 00:08:27,476 Speaker 1: a person is outside the pale because of this or 139 00:08:27,476 --> 00:08:30,036 Speaker 1: that view that they hold, and that there's a kind 140 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:33,516 Speaker 1: of cancel culture panic going on out there. Is that 141 00:08:33,756 --> 00:08:36,156 Speaker 1: a fair read of where you come down. I mean, 142 00:08:36,196 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 1: I certainly think so. I start the piece talking about 143 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:44,876 Speaker 1: Lenny Bruce, a very controversial comedian in his day, who 144 00:08:44,916 --> 00:08:49,636 Speaker 1: made a lot of jobs at powerful people and rubbed 145 00:08:49,636 --> 00:08:52,276 Speaker 1: people a ang way. His use of language was also 146 00:08:52,356 --> 00:08:56,196 Speaker 1: self consciously designed to shock and to break taboos. He 147 00:08:56,236 --> 00:08:59,156 Speaker 1: was breaking taboos, especially about swearing, and he gained an 148 00:08:59,196 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 1: audience for doing that, and he gained a lot of 149 00:09:00,916 --> 00:09:04,276 Speaker 1: respects for doing that as somebody who you know, is 150 00:09:04,436 --> 00:09:08,716 Speaker 1: bringing first values to their fullest expression. But he was 151 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:13,316 Speaker 1: also basically persecuted by obscenity laws. And there was a 152 00:09:13,396 --> 00:09:16,556 Speaker 1: time in which cancelation, or what we sort of think 153 00:09:16,596 --> 00:09:20,556 Speaker 1: of now is cancelation, wasn't sort of just a purely 154 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:24,716 Speaker 1: social phenomenon or purely a matter of public opinion. It 155 00:09:24,796 --> 00:09:27,116 Speaker 1: was the law that if you said certain things, you 156 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:31,596 Speaker 1: could lose your gigs or end up at a workhouse, 157 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:34,236 Speaker 1: you know, as he was sentenced to. So, I mean, 158 00:09:34,276 --> 00:09:37,876 Speaker 1: I think that in examining episodes like that, in examples 159 00:09:37,916 --> 00:09:40,836 Speaker 1: like his life, it comes very clear that there's nothing 160 00:09:40,876 --> 00:09:44,276 Speaker 1: particularly new about the act of saying that something is 161 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:49,956 Speaker 1: beyond the pale or offensive. Obviously, there's not even something 162 00:09:49,996 --> 00:09:54,716 Speaker 1: new necessarily about the public on mass congregating to say 163 00:09:54,796 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 1: that a particular television program, particular comedian, particular article was 164 00:10:00,636 --> 00:10:03,436 Speaker 1: wrong or bad or off the mark or offensive in 165 00:10:03,516 --> 00:10:05,556 Speaker 1: some way. People used to send in letters. You'd have 166 00:10:05,596 --> 00:10:09,396 Speaker 1: the Parents Television Council dial up the FCC when they 167 00:10:09,436 --> 00:10:11,356 Speaker 1: thought things on television that they didn't want their kids 168 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:15,196 Speaker 1: to see in etc. I think what particularly concerns people 169 00:10:15,316 --> 00:10:17,916 Speaker 1: is sort of it called a mob like. It's the 170 00:10:17,956 --> 00:10:21,636 Speaker 1: fact that you have the worst cases, maybe hundreds of 171 00:10:21,636 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 1: people with thousands of people coming together and saying this joke, 172 00:10:26,036 --> 00:10:31,116 Speaker 1: this TV program, this movie, whatever, is wrong in some way. 173 00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:35,916 Speaker 1: Even that the fact of people on mass coming together 174 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:39,396 Speaker 1: to criticize people. It's not like an invention of the 175 00:10:39,476 --> 00:10:42,036 Speaker 1: social media age. It used to happen. It's just the 176 00:10:42,076 --> 00:10:46,676 Speaker 1: social media has made it particularly easy and particularly visible. 177 00:10:47,076 --> 00:10:50,236 Speaker 1: It doesn't always see all they hate mail that you 178 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 1: would have used to flow into magazine mail rooms. You know, 179 00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:56,276 Speaker 1: that wasn't something that the public could look at and 180 00:10:56,596 --> 00:11:00,676 Speaker 1: feel a ghast about, but you do see tweets and comments. 181 00:11:01,436 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 1: We'll be right back as I am very very convinced 182 00:11:14,636 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 1: by your argument that that kind of opposition is not 183 00:11:17,876 --> 00:11:21,396 Speaker 1: new but is just much more observable. But I've been 184 00:11:21,956 --> 00:11:26,396 Speaker 1: really trying to come up with the most sympathetic account 185 00:11:26,516 --> 00:11:29,396 Speaker 1: that I can of the form of the criticism. So 186 00:11:29,596 --> 00:11:31,756 Speaker 1: let me try out the following hypothesis on you of 187 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 1: the other side's view. And I'm not attributing this to 188 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:37,556 Speaker 1: any actual person who's criticizing Cancel culture. This is just 189 00:11:37,636 --> 00:11:41,076 Speaker 1: my attempt to reconstruct the best argument you could make 190 00:11:41,116 --> 00:11:44,996 Speaker 1: on their side. The argument would be this, the distinctive 191 00:11:45,116 --> 00:11:48,996 Speaker 1: form of criticism that one hears again and again and 192 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 1: again today is that we should break down the distinction 193 00:11:54,276 --> 00:11:57,996 Speaker 1: between the artist or the author or the maker on 194 00:11:58,036 --> 00:12:00,836 Speaker 1: the one hand, and the human being on the other side. 195 00:12:01,516 --> 00:12:04,716 Speaker 1: That we should admit that we can't distinguish the dancer 196 00:12:04,756 --> 00:12:07,996 Speaker 1: from the dance, and for that reason, when we see 197 00:12:08,316 --> 00:12:13,676 Speaker 1: a moral failing in the person, we should respond by 198 00:12:13,836 --> 00:12:19,116 Speaker 1: sanctioning the artwork that that person creates. So to take 199 00:12:19,156 --> 00:12:22,156 Speaker 1: a concrete example, you know, if one is convinced that 200 00:12:22,516 --> 00:12:25,716 Speaker 1: the allegations from many years ago against Woody Allen that 201 00:12:25,876 --> 00:12:28,236 Speaker 1: he abused his daughter, an allegation that's important to note 202 00:12:28,236 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 1: he was cleared of at the time. But if one 203 00:12:30,476 --> 00:12:33,556 Speaker 1: came to believe that that allegation were true, one should 204 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:37,396 Speaker 1: therefore not watch any Woody Allen movies. And in the 205 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:40,396 Speaker 1: sense that fits into the word cancel because it's not 206 00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:44,196 Speaker 1: canceled the thing or argue against the utterance. Usually a 207 00:12:44,316 --> 00:12:48,996 Speaker 1: human being is the direct object of the verb to cancel. Yeah, 208 00:12:49,156 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 1: and so if that's what they're really upset about, I 209 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:55,556 Speaker 1: think one can have a very serious debate or argument 210 00:12:55,556 --> 00:12:58,276 Speaker 1: about this, because I'm not sure there's a clear correct answer. 211 00:12:58,276 --> 00:13:00,676 Speaker 1: I can see both sides of the argument. But that 212 00:13:00,756 --> 00:13:04,436 Speaker 1: does seem to be some trend that is a little 213 00:13:04,596 --> 00:13:08,796 Speaker 1: greater today than it was, say, ten years ago. What 214 00:13:08,836 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 1: do you think about that hypothesis? See, I just don't know. 215 00:13:11,196 --> 00:13:13,076 Speaker 1: Like I think, one of the things that's so hard 216 00:13:13,116 --> 00:13:16,116 Speaker 1: about these conversations is that they're very hard to quantify. 217 00:13:16,836 --> 00:13:19,116 Speaker 1: It's very hard to bring any kind of empirical evidence 218 00:13:19,116 --> 00:13:21,156 Speaker 1: to bear sure, and a lot of this stuff, but 219 00:13:21,196 --> 00:13:22,996 Speaker 1: you know, you can go back to Ezra Pounds and 220 00:13:23,076 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 1: people talking about his anti semitism and the extent to 221 00:13:26,116 --> 00:13:28,156 Speaker 1: which it may have you know, it should influence the 222 00:13:28,196 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 1: way you see his poetry. You can talk about Roman Polanski. 223 00:13:30,756 --> 00:13:33,476 Speaker 1: These are conversations that people have had about arts and 224 00:13:33,636 --> 00:13:36,596 Speaker 1: artists for a very long time. I think those are 225 00:13:36,636 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 1: great examples. But the way I was taught those things, 226 00:13:39,556 --> 00:13:41,956 Speaker 1: those were both taught as canonical people. So you know, 227 00:13:42,276 --> 00:13:45,636 Speaker 1: the Norton Anthology of English Poetry, from which I was 228 00:13:45,676 --> 00:13:48,036 Speaker 1: taught poetry and at a at a tender age, which 229 00:13:48,076 --> 00:13:51,956 Speaker 1: influenced me, included all of the Ezra Pound poems one 230 00:13:51,996 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 1: could want, including some of the ones that were anti Semitic. 231 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:57,756 Speaker 1: And sure a teacher might say, you know, ge, just 232 00:13:57,796 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 1: so you know, he's got these terrible views. And there 233 00:13:59,556 --> 00:14:01,316 Speaker 1: are some people who think we shouldn't, but the sort 234 00:14:01,356 --> 00:14:04,716 Speaker 1: of canonical answer in the culture was, but you should 235 00:14:04,716 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 1: certainly read the poems. The same with Polanski. I mean 236 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:09,516 Speaker 1: he left, he had to leave the United States because 237 00:14:09,556 --> 00:14:14,356 Speaker 1: of indictment for statutory rape. And yet I don't know 238 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:17,476 Speaker 1: too many people who studied film in a serious way 239 00:14:17,556 --> 00:14:21,396 Speaker 1: who were told, don't watch Chinatown because of Roman Polanski's immorality. 240 00:14:21,396 --> 00:14:23,956 Speaker 1: That's a canonical film. I agree that people have been 241 00:14:23,996 --> 00:14:26,156 Speaker 1: debating this. They're probably be debating this since there was art, 242 00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:29,356 Speaker 1: But I think that more serious people today are saying 243 00:14:29,916 --> 00:14:33,196 Speaker 1: that the person is out based on their immorality or 244 00:14:33,276 --> 00:14:35,556 Speaker 1: the immoral features of some of their artwork than was 245 00:14:35,596 --> 00:14:39,436 Speaker 1: the case in at least the classical reception. Maybe I 246 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:42,156 Speaker 1: just don't know. Like the thing that I've been thinking 247 00:14:42,156 --> 00:14:44,796 Speaker 1: about in this realm of the past couple of weeks, 248 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:46,756 Speaker 1: although it's a little bit of a different example, is 249 00:14:47,156 --> 00:14:51,956 Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant. He's been the subject of many, many moving 250 00:14:52,836 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 1: and loving tributes, politicians issued statements talking about how wonderful 251 00:14:58,276 --> 00:15:00,276 Speaker 1: he was and all he did for the support of basketball. 252 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:04,396 Speaker 1: But he's also somebody with who had a very serious 253 00:15:04,436 --> 00:15:09,676 Speaker 1: allegation of sexual abuse level against him, and that hasn't 254 00:15:09,716 --> 00:15:13,116 Speaker 1: really broken into a lot of the conversation we've been 255 00:15:13,156 --> 00:15:17,116 Speaker 1: having since his death. In fact, the Washington Post reprimanded 256 00:15:17,116 --> 00:15:20,756 Speaker 1: a reporter I believe on the afternoon came down that 257 00:15:20,796 --> 00:15:25,516 Speaker 1: he had died for linking to an article mentioning this case. 258 00:15:26,076 --> 00:15:27,996 Speaker 1: So you're saying this is the opposite of cancel culture, 259 00:15:28,276 --> 00:15:32,516 Speaker 1: is this is the whitewashing culture. I have read things 260 00:15:32,556 --> 00:15:36,036 Speaker 1: by feminists and others making the point that it's problematic 261 00:15:36,076 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: that there's been this celebration of Kobe Bryant. But if 262 00:15:38,516 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 1: your point is that, no, that the celebration, at least 263 00:15:41,596 --> 00:15:45,156 Speaker 1: culturally has substantially outweighed the criticism. I think you're unquestionably 264 00:15:45,236 --> 00:15:47,316 Speaker 1: right about that. I guess the point I'm making is 265 00:15:47,356 --> 00:15:52,276 Speaker 1: that we still have a very broad capacity to overlook 266 00:15:52,836 --> 00:15:55,716 Speaker 1: the bad things that famous people have done, you know, 267 00:15:56,236 --> 00:15:57,796 Speaker 1: And I think that you would have to have a 268 00:15:57,836 --> 00:16:00,396 Speaker 1: lot of evidence to suggest that. You know, we're now 269 00:16:00,436 --> 00:16:04,716 Speaker 1: in this culture where any mark against you, if you're 270 00:16:04,756 --> 00:16:07,556 Speaker 1: an artist or an athlete, or an entertainer or some kind, 271 00:16:07,996 --> 00:16:12,476 Speaker 1: is now much more damaging to your public perception than 272 00:16:12,476 --> 00:16:14,836 Speaker 1: it would have been previously. I think there's certain kinds 273 00:16:14,916 --> 00:16:20,516 Speaker 1: of things you can do. I think that Brian example. Nonwithstanding, 274 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:24,356 Speaker 1: I think people are much less lenient about sexual abuse 275 00:16:24,676 --> 00:16:28,636 Speaker 1: now and allegations of sexism. I think people are obviously 276 00:16:28,716 --> 00:16:32,636 Speaker 1: more sensitive about racism. But I don't know that people 277 00:16:32,836 --> 00:16:37,236 Speaker 1: now in general are willing to sort of metaphorically burned 278 00:16:37,276 --> 00:16:41,036 Speaker 1: books or paintings, or sort of strike people from historical 279 00:16:41,116 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 1: record as far as popular entertainment is concerned for having 280 00:16:45,396 --> 00:16:48,916 Speaker 1: done something wrong in the past. You know, I think 281 00:16:48,956 --> 00:16:52,996 Speaker 1: that there's a different conversation now happening about historical figures. 282 00:16:53,796 --> 00:16:57,356 Speaker 1: That's certainly a related conversation. Conversation. Yeah, you know, one 283 00:16:57,396 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 1: thinks of Calhoun's name being taken off of one of 284 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:03,076 Speaker 1: the Yale colleges, and there it's not fair to say 285 00:17:03,196 --> 00:17:05,036 Speaker 1: was based on one thing that he did. It is 286 00:17:05,076 --> 00:17:07,716 Speaker 1: based on the fact that the very thing that had 287 00:17:07,716 --> 00:17:11,756 Speaker 1: gotten him recognition in the first place, namely his statesmanship 288 00:17:11,796 --> 00:17:15,476 Speaker 1: in US history, could not be disentangled from the position 289 00:17:15,516 --> 00:17:18,596 Speaker 1: that he advocated at all of those moments, which was 290 00:17:19,236 --> 00:17:24,196 Speaker 1: South Carolinian quasi sovereignty in order to protect slavery right. 291 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:27,316 Speaker 1: And this sort of raises that it does seem kind 292 00:17:27,316 --> 00:17:30,756 Speaker 1: of striking that maybe the is stereotypical, but the mostly 293 00:17:30,836 --> 00:17:35,076 Speaker 1: white conservative critics of quote unquote cancel culture seemed to 294 00:17:35,116 --> 00:17:39,716 Speaker 1: be really worried that people of color or women are 295 00:17:39,756 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: the ones who suddenly have the capacity to, as they imagine, 296 00:17:43,756 --> 00:17:46,156 Speaker 1: shut down a certain kind of discourse. And that seemed 297 00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:49,276 Speaker 1: to be making folks very, very nervous in a way 298 00:17:49,316 --> 00:17:51,196 Speaker 1: that it might not have been the case when the 299 00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:54,036 Speaker 1: question of access or who you would listen to was 300 00:17:54,116 --> 00:17:57,836 Speaker 1: more broadly controlled by white elites. Yeah, I mean, I 301 00:17:57,916 --> 00:18:00,516 Speaker 1: think this is one of the big shifts in cultural 302 00:18:00,556 --> 00:18:03,676 Speaker 1: politics I've been fascinated by over the past simple years. 303 00:18:03,676 --> 00:18:06,236 Speaker 1: You have the people who in the eighties, I guess 304 00:18:06,236 --> 00:18:09,036 Speaker 1: would have been railing against offensive lyrics in hip hop. 305 00:18:09,316 --> 00:18:14,356 Speaker 1: Now rebranding themselves as a movement as the defenders of 306 00:18:14,436 --> 00:18:18,276 Speaker 1: free speech and the defenders of free expression against the 307 00:18:18,316 --> 00:18:22,876 Speaker 1: overlease and sorious twenty something woke people on Twitter, and 308 00:18:22,996 --> 00:18:26,396 Speaker 1: you know, like I don't know that if you go 309 00:18:26,556 --> 00:18:30,516 Speaker 1: through the history of the conservative movements and examine the 310 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:33,956 Speaker 1: way that the movement responded to certain controversies and the 311 00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:36,436 Speaker 1: way that they respond to speech controversies, now you're going 312 00:18:36,476 --> 00:18:40,556 Speaker 1: to find like a natural sort of intellectual evolution to 313 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:43,156 Speaker 1: their current position. I think it's kind of a one 314 00:18:43,356 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 1: eighty that's happening for pretty obvious reasons. One of the 315 00:18:48,876 --> 00:18:51,316 Speaker 1: things that was mattening to me about the campus political 316 00:18:51,316 --> 00:18:53,756 Speaker 1: controversies that took up so much attention a couple of 317 00:18:53,836 --> 00:18:58,756 Speaker 1: years ago was that there was so much writing about 318 00:18:59,556 --> 00:19:04,396 Speaker 1: people at events, you know, shouting at a professor or 319 00:19:04,436 --> 00:19:08,396 Speaker 1: a speaker, or saying that a speaker shouldn't come to campus, 320 00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:11,116 Speaker 1: and so on. You can have your view on whether 321 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:15,836 Speaker 1: or not that seat useful or meaningful form of protest. 322 00:19:16,196 --> 00:19:20,116 Speaker 1: There's always no writing at all about Republican state legislatures. 323 00:19:20,476 --> 00:19:24,156 Speaker 1: By law trying to prevent certain people from coming to 324 00:19:24,156 --> 00:19:27,636 Speaker 1: certain campuses, or trying to crack down on certain student movements. 325 00:19:27,636 --> 00:19:31,596 Speaker 1: There was no conversation about that as a threat to 326 00:19:31,676 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 1: free speech. You would imagine that actions state government would 327 00:19:36,076 --> 00:19:39,876 Speaker 1: be slightly more concerning actions by five and a half 328 00:19:40,076 --> 00:19:43,756 Speaker 1: liberal arts students in the Northeast. You know, sure, you're 329 00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:45,596 Speaker 1: making a point that I think. First of all, I 330 00:19:45,596 --> 00:19:49,596 Speaker 1: think it's absolutely correct that free speech has only become 331 00:19:49,636 --> 00:19:53,436 Speaker 1: a rallying cry of conservatives in the last decade. And 332 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:57,316 Speaker 1: historically conservatives were more status, they were more in supportive 333 00:19:57,836 --> 00:19:59,956 Speaker 1: the state when it restricted speech, and they were also 334 00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 1: more committed to what they saw as moral judgment and 335 00:20:04,276 --> 00:20:06,956 Speaker 1: made the argument typically that when a work of art 336 00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:10,316 Speaker 1: or something else violated community more out, it ought to 337 00:20:10,356 --> 00:20:13,476 Speaker 1: be appropriate to suppress it or not to fund it. 338 00:20:14,156 --> 00:20:17,236 Speaker 1: But I would just note the flip, what I call 339 00:20:17,316 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: the flip, and the political economy of free speech has 340 00:20:20,236 --> 00:20:22,636 Speaker 1: actually taken place on both sides. I mean, it's also 341 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:26,956 Speaker 1: true that in left of center circles, the knee jerk 342 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:32,316 Speaker 1: view for most of the twentieth century was more speech 343 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:35,636 Speaker 1: is good. You know. The American Civil Liberties Union got 344 00:20:35,676 --> 00:20:39,676 Speaker 1: its start as a really very far left organization, deeply 345 00:20:39,716 --> 00:20:44,316 Speaker 1: embedded with socialism and even communism, and it gradually morphed 346 00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,236 Speaker 1: into being a more general civil libertarian set of positions. 347 00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 1: But this was an alliance that was driven in part 348 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:52,636 Speaker 1: by the left sense that the right controlled the institutions 349 00:20:52,676 --> 00:20:55,316 Speaker 1: of the state and was interested in shutting them down. 350 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:58,356 Speaker 1: And so today, you know, when I teach my students 351 00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:00,236 Speaker 1: and I teach free speech, I teach First Amendment to 352 00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:05,356 Speaker 1: my students. It's noteworthy that many students who see themselves 353 00:21:05,356 --> 00:21:08,956 Speaker 1: as left of center are very skeptical about the power 354 00:21:08,956 --> 00:21:11,556 Speaker 1: of free speech, and many students who are right of 355 00:21:11,636 --> 00:21:14,436 Speaker 1: centers see themselves as deeply committed to free speech. And 356 00:21:14,476 --> 00:21:17,836 Speaker 1: it's nearly one hundred and eighty degree flip, yea, even 357 00:21:17,996 --> 00:21:20,396 Speaker 1: from what it is when I started teaching this, you know, 358 00:21:20,436 --> 00:21:22,876 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago. So I've sort of watched this change 359 00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:26,396 Speaker 1: happening in real time among my students, and I think 360 00:21:26,396 --> 00:21:29,876 Speaker 1: they're reflecting a change it's happening more broadly in the society. 361 00:21:29,876 --> 00:21:32,556 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of flipping to go around. You know, 362 00:21:32,596 --> 00:21:34,836 Speaker 1: I don't know whether it's hypocritical or not, it's definitely 363 00:21:34,876 --> 00:21:36,716 Speaker 1: a transformation. And how we think about these. So I 364 00:21:36,756 --> 00:21:38,876 Speaker 1: mean there are ways in which I think the left. 365 00:21:39,356 --> 00:21:42,556 Speaker 1: I guess the campus left now is a little bit 366 00:21:42,716 --> 00:21:47,796 Speaker 1: frankly better on speech than the previous iteration of the 367 00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:50,316 Speaker 1: campus left back in the eighties and nineties, when you 368 00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:52,836 Speaker 1: had the first sort of way of political practice controversies. No, 369 00:21:52,956 --> 00:21:55,756 Speaker 1: I say this because I'm interesting hearing your perspective on it. 370 00:21:56,716 --> 00:21:59,356 Speaker 1: During that first wave, a lot of campuses were actively 371 00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:06,676 Speaker 1: going about imposing speech codes. There were actual statutory efforts 372 00:22:06,916 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: to prohibit people from saying certain things that were deemed 373 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:15,436 Speaker 1: offensive that ultimately ended up in a lot of court battles. Now, 374 00:22:15,556 --> 00:22:20,516 Speaker 1: I think the way that this discourse happens is almost 375 00:22:20,836 --> 00:22:27,276 Speaker 1: exclusively within social circle. Students will say among themselves, these 376 00:22:27,276 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 1: are the kinds of values that we want to uphold. 377 00:22:30,116 --> 00:22:31,916 Speaker 1: This is the kind of speech that we don't think 378 00:22:31,996 --> 00:22:37,756 Speaker 1: is okay. And it's much more informal debate. Whatever norms 379 00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:41,556 Speaker 1: are being enforced now or not being enforced by dictadd's 380 00:22:41,636 --> 00:22:45,916 Speaker 1: being enforced by social dynamics, in some cases group pressure. 381 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:51,236 Speaker 1: But it's not about somebody laying down the law administratively. Now, 382 00:22:51,516 --> 00:22:54,956 Speaker 1: is it possible that that's because of the First Amendment? 383 00:22:55,036 --> 00:22:57,796 Speaker 1: Jurisprudence that emerge out of that first wave. Maybe I 384 00:22:57,836 --> 00:23:00,116 Speaker 1: have a competing theory about why. I mean, first of all, 385 00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:03,276 Speaker 1: I think it's a super astute observation and really really 386 00:23:03,316 --> 00:23:05,556 Speaker 1: resonates with my own experiences, for sure. And I was 387 00:23:05,836 --> 00:23:08,116 Speaker 1: a student in the very late eighties and early nineties 388 00:23:08,116 --> 00:23:09,876 Speaker 1: on a campus, and I remember all of the intense 389 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:12,196 Speaker 1: debates about that, and you're totally right that those were 390 00:23:12,196 --> 00:23:15,756 Speaker 1: about formal codification and now it's about the informal. But 391 00:23:15,876 --> 00:23:19,716 Speaker 1: my instinctive reaction to that change, and to be blunt, 392 00:23:19,716 --> 00:23:20,956 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought of it before. I think it's a 393 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:23,236 Speaker 1: great point that you're making, is that it's because of 394 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:26,436 Speaker 1: the rise of social media, much in the way that 395 00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:29,356 Speaker 1: the question of where free expression lives used to be 396 00:23:29,516 --> 00:23:33,036 Speaker 1: very much about the state and the private individual, and 397 00:23:33,276 --> 00:23:35,596 Speaker 1: or maybe by extension, the university, which might be private 398 00:23:35,636 --> 00:23:37,796 Speaker 1: but still functions as the state when you go to one. 399 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:41,596 Speaker 1: Now the big topic in free expression is really social 400 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:43,676 Speaker 1: media and what it means to have pre expression in 401 00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 1: an era where all of the platforms have terms of 402 00:23:46,276 --> 00:23:49,996 Speaker 1: service that include community standards that regulate what you can say. 403 00:23:50,436 --> 00:23:55,036 Speaker 1: And so since today's students are genuine digital natives whose 404 00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:59,796 Speaker 1: entire adolescent and post adolescent lives have been completely structured 405 00:23:59,836 --> 00:24:03,036 Speaker 1: around the idea that where the important expression happens is 406 00:24:03,116 --> 00:24:06,436 Speaker 1: on social media. So I think it follows from that 407 00:24:06,436 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 1: that they accept non state oriented modes of sanction and 408 00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:13,476 Speaker 1: they accept, you know, let's all do it together on 409 00:24:13,516 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 1: social media forms of sanction. And that may also be 410 00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:18,796 Speaker 1: one of the things that scares the daylights out of 411 00:24:18,796 --> 00:24:23,076 Speaker 1: an older generation of conservatives, who say, oh, my goodness, 412 00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:28,156 Speaker 1: this phenomenon of collective judgment is itself the thing that's 413 00:24:28,196 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 1: scary because it's not in the hands of the state. 414 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:32,196 Speaker 1: It's not in the hands of the people who run 415 00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 1: the inslution, it's not in the hands of the quote 416 00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:37,796 Speaker 1: unquote grown ups or the traditional actors who exercise power. 417 00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 1: It's democratized, it's spread out, it's decentralized, and it has 418 00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:47,596 Speaker 1: this social feature to it that grows out of social media. 419 00:24:47,636 --> 00:24:48,956 Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think I'm just saying your 420 00:24:48,996 --> 00:24:51,316 Speaker 1: theory back to you to try to explain the phenomenon 421 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:54,196 Speaker 1: that you described, So I describe the theory to you, 422 00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:57,396 Speaker 1: not to me. Sure, I mean, I think it's anybody 423 00:24:57,516 --> 00:25:00,796 Speaker 1: can be a gatekeeper of sorts now the power to 424 00:25:01,716 --> 00:25:05,596 Speaker 1: sort of align yourself with a particular constituency and define 425 00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:10,276 Speaker 1: values amongst yourselves and enforce those values. It's no longer 426 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 1: just in the hands of people who belong to mainstream 427 00:25:16,836 --> 00:25:22,716 Speaker 1: political constituencies or people who are within the existing racial 428 00:25:22,876 --> 00:25:28,596 Speaker 1: or cultural religious majority. Anybody can sort of develop a 429 00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:34,916 Speaker 1: set of beliefs and values that they sort of, you 430 00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:36,996 Speaker 1: can't really say, impose on the rest of the world, 431 00:25:37,116 --> 00:25:43,236 Speaker 1: but they can take jobs at people of prominence on 432 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:44,876 Speaker 1: the basis of those values in the way that they 433 00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to ten twenty thirty years ago, 434 00:25:48,236 --> 00:25:51,076 Speaker 1: as you said, as a consequence of social media. And 435 00:25:51,276 --> 00:25:55,436 Speaker 1: you know, if you are a conservative or not just 436 00:25:55,476 --> 00:26:00,076 Speaker 1: a conservative, but if you're frankly a centrist liberal with 437 00:26:00,116 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 1: a lot of respect for lead institutions, it is very 438 00:26:03,476 --> 00:26:05,956 Speaker 1: understandable why you'd find that frightening. But I think that 439 00:26:06,836 --> 00:26:11,916 Speaker 1: we should be clear and understanding what the actual risks 440 00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:15,396 Speaker 1: of this kind of new discourse actually are. If we 441 00:26:15,476 --> 00:26:20,276 Speaker 1: go around saying to ourselves what's happening now can be 442 00:26:21,676 --> 00:26:27,436 Speaker 1: half metaphorically half not connected to Stalinism and the Gulag 443 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:32,276 Speaker 1: and witch hunts. I think that we lose our sense 444 00:26:32,476 --> 00:26:37,356 Speaker 1: of perspective when we draw those comparisons. If there's something 445 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:40,476 Speaker 1: to be critiqued about this new discourse, I think that 446 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 1: we don't do ourselves any favors in understanding those things 447 00:26:44,476 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 1: if we're constantly reaching for something else that is obviously 448 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:51,436 Speaker 1: so dramatically different but has this i don't know, like 449 00:26:51,716 --> 00:26:54,796 Speaker 1: rhetorical or emotional resonance when you reach for it. You know, 450 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:58,516 Speaker 1: you might not like being criticized on Twitter, but if 451 00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:03,676 Speaker 1: you're comparing the situation to Nazi Germany, like you're not, 452 00:27:04,996 --> 00:27:08,716 Speaker 1: you're not bringing any clarity to what's actually happening. See. 453 00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:11,036 Speaker 1: I just want to really thank you because to me, 454 00:27:11,236 --> 00:27:17,116 Speaker 1: your cultural critical analysis here is terribly powerful because you're 455 00:27:17,156 --> 00:27:19,956 Speaker 1: not responding to the critique by just saying, well, that's 456 00:27:19,956 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 1: a right wing critique and the left is better. Nor 457 00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 1: are you saying that the right is entirely tilting at 458 00:27:26,596 --> 00:27:30,276 Speaker 1: a windmill. Instead, you're stepping outside of it and evaluating 459 00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:33,996 Speaker 1: the phenomenon that's actually in play and asking us to 460 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:38,436 Speaker 1: think about how that phenomenon is actually cashed out in 461 00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:41,116 Speaker 1: terms of who has the capacity to do what, and 462 00:27:41,756 --> 00:27:46,996 Speaker 1: how power is handed out, and how communication actually happens, 463 00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:50,476 Speaker 1: and that to me is tremendously clarifying. And I just 464 00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:52,316 Speaker 1: want to say thank you, and I hope we can 465 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 1: talk again in the future as you continue to unpack 466 00:27:56,036 --> 00:27:59,196 Speaker 1: and explain other kinds of cultural phenomenon. And I'm going 467 00:27:59,236 --> 00:28:00,796 Speaker 1: to look out for your stuff and I'm really grateful 468 00:28:00,836 --> 00:28:03,036 Speaker 1: to you. Well, thank you so much. This is truly wonderful. 469 00:28:03,156 --> 00:28:13,556 Speaker 1: Thank you. Vocita raised some really important questions around the 470 00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:17,796 Speaker 1: social mechanism that's driving what is known as cancel culture. 471 00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:22,076 Speaker 1: He points out that in almost every situation, those calling 472 00:28:22,116 --> 00:28:24,676 Speaker 1: for the cancelation of a person or a figure or 473 00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:28,716 Speaker 1: an idea are doing so themselves, not through the exercise 474 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:33,516 Speaker 1: of official governmental power, or indeed through attempts to create 475 00:28:33,556 --> 00:28:37,716 Speaker 1: an institutionalized mechanism of censorship, but rather in their own 476 00:28:37,756 --> 00:28:41,636 Speaker 1: expression of their own beliefs and ideas. True, it may 477 00:28:41,676 --> 00:28:45,676 Speaker 1: happen that institutions respond in individual cases, so it's not 478 00:28:45,716 --> 00:28:49,236 Speaker 1: as though the movement is disconnected from institutional reality. But 479 00:28:49,316 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 1: the calls themselves are not calls for a fundamental set 480 00:28:53,276 --> 00:28:58,356 Speaker 1: of institutional changes. In most instances, that has major implications 481 00:28:58,396 --> 00:29:01,956 Speaker 1: when we try to puzzle out exactly what free speech 482 00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:05,836 Speaker 1: principles should tell us about calls for cancelation or the 483 00:29:05,836 --> 00:29:11,316 Speaker 1: phenomenon of cancelation itself, assuming that phenomenon even exists. As 484 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 1: Zosita reminds us, our Freedom of Speech series will continue 485 00:29:15,956 --> 00:29:20,356 Speaker 1: next week. Until then, be careful, be safe, and be well. 486 00:29:21,876 --> 00:29:24,916 Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 487 00:29:24,956 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 1: producer is Lydia gene Coott, with mastering by Jason Gambrell 488 00:29:28,436 --> 00:29:32,596 Speaker 1: and Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme 489 00:29:32,676 --> 00:29:35,636 Speaker 1: music is composed by Luis GERA special thanks to the 490 00:29:35,636 --> 00:29:39,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel. I'm 491 00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:43,596 Speaker 1: Noah Feldman. I also write a regular column for Bloomberg Opinion, 492 00:29:43,796 --> 00:29:46,996 Speaker 1: which you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. 493 00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:51,276 Speaker 1: To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg 494 00:29:51,356 --> 00:29:55,596 Speaker 1: dot com slash Podcasts. And one last thing. I just 495 00:29:55,636 --> 00:29:58,636 Speaker 1: wrote a book called The Arab Winter, a Tragedy. I 496 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:01,076 Speaker 1: would be delighted if you checked it out. If you 497 00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:03,956 Speaker 1: liked what you've heard today, please write a review or 498 00:30:04,076 --> 00:30:06,236 Speaker 1: tell a friend. You can always let me know what 499 00:30:06,236 --> 00:30:09,036 Speaker 1: you think on Twitter my handle is Noah Our felt. 500 00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 1: This is deep background