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Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. How many of you

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Speaker 1: have ever walked out to the mailbox and cracked it

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Speaker 1: open and looked inside and there was that envelope. Most

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Speaker 1: of the time it's a white envelope. It's got a

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Speaker 1: little window on it, you know, a little plastic window,

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Speaker 1: and when you look at the plastic window, it's got

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Speaker 1: your name in there, displayed prominently. And then you look

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Speaker 1: up in the top left hand corner and this piece

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Speaker 1: of mail has been sent to you from the kind

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Speaker 1: folks down at the Clerk of Court's office, your local courthouse,

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Speaker 1: and most of the time it's the news that it

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Speaker 1: bears to you is to inform you that you have

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Speaker 1: been selected as a winner for the jury pool, and

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Speaker 1: you're going to be heading downtown and you're going to

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Speaker 1: sit in a bicker room with a lot of other

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Speaker 1: people listening to cases perhaps if you get selected, and

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Speaker 1: then making a determination about what shall happen to a

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Speaker 1: person at the end of a trial. But just for

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Speaker 1: a moment, think about this. You're going about your life,

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Speaker 1: minding your own doing everything you can to obey the law,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly you've been selected for jury duty. It turns

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Speaker 1: out that it's a homicide, and this homicide is going

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Speaker 1: to beat everything you could have ever imagined as far

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Speaker 1: as what one human being would do to another. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the brutal murder of a

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Speaker 1: young woman who was just getting started out in life,

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Speaker 1: a young woman whose life was ended at the hands

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Speaker 1: of a man wielding an ice axe. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: and this is Body Bags. Dave. I know that you're

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Speaker 1: from California originally, but let's face it, we've adopted you

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Speaker 1: our own here in the South. You've been here long enough.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that if I ever came over to

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Speaker 1: your house and said, gee, Dave, can you lend me

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Speaker 1: your ice axe? First off, you might look at me

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Speaker 1: and say, have you lost your mind? And secondly you

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Speaker 1: might say, what's an ice axe? Or maybe we'd have

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Speaker 1: to reverse that. I don't know, because I got to

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Speaker 1: tell you, the only time I've ever seen an ice

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Speaker 1: axe is generally in a movie Cliffhanger.

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Speaker 2: Oh with Sylvester Sloan, which is a.

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Speaker 1: Pretty good movie. And here's an old one with Clint Eastwood,

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Speaker 1: The Eiger Sanction, which I love that movie and it

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Speaker 1: was kind of like his attempt at kind of a

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Speaker 1: James Bond kind of thing. Good movie, a little bit campy,

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Speaker 1: but you know, Clint East would forget about it. So

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I saw ice axes in there too, and

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Speaker 1: certainly in my background. I can officially tell you right here,

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Speaker 1: and I want everyone to know this. I have never

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Speaker 1: worked a homicide involving an ice axe, And for me,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, how does even how does this

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Speaker 1: even come into play in a case like this.

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Speaker 2: I actually looked up what it was. I thought it

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Speaker 2: was something that might be used to make a hole

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Speaker 2: in the ice, to go ice fishing, something like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is not something that most of us would have

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Speaker 2: unless we lived in an area where we spend a

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Speaker 2: lot of time, you know, with ice. But you know

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Speaker 2: you're in central California and where they are in this

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Speaker 2: particular case, I'm thinking, Okay, maybe you know, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of different areas you can go to where an

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Speaker 2: ice axe, I guess might be handy. Daniel Gunnerson's stepfather

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Speaker 2: had a huge r V garage, a garage to park

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Speaker 2: his RV. So these people that are outside, they're outdoorsy people,

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Speaker 2: so having an ice axe probably not out of the

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Speaker 2: blue for them. But again I didn't even know what

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Speaker 2: it was I saw this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't either. And when you when you see

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Speaker 1: this thing, it's kind of an interesting an interesting tool, yes,

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Speaker 1: because it's got many of them have kind of a

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Speaker 1: curved handle. They look like they're maybe about a foot

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Speaker 1: and a half in links the handle itself, but the

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Speaker 1: head is configured in an interesting way. It's not what

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Speaker 1: we would tradition considered to be an axe, you know,

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Speaker 1: where you've got a blade, a single blade axe, or

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Speaker 1: a double bladed axe, think Paul Bunyan. It's not like that.

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Speaker 1: This is actually a device that's got a long, tapered

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Speaker 1: end that comes to kind of a sharp point and

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Speaker 1: then backing up from on the underside of it. This

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Speaker 1: thing has got multiple teeth. It almost looks like a

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Speaker 1: saw where you could saw through something, but that's not

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Speaker 1: the point. When you strike the axe with that leading edge,

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Speaker 1: those teeth actually hook into the underlying ice and you

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Speaker 1: can kind of pull yourself up with it. You flip

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Speaker 1: this thing around and the other side has got a

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Speaker 1: see how can I describe it, kind of a bladed edge,

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Speaker 1: but it's flat, it's it's it's it runs parallel to

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Speaker 1: the ground if you're looking, if you're holding the axe itself,

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Speaker 1: this tool, and this is meant and interestingly enough, this

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Speaker 1: inside of the axe is actually used to cut steps

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Speaker 1: into either ice are hardly packed snow, uh And so

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Speaker 1: the whole thing has a utility. And then if there's

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Speaker 1: not enough on the very end of the handle, there's

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Speaker 1: actually a spike where you can take it and drive

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Speaker 1: it down into the ground so that you're not going

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Speaker 1: to lose it. And of course it's got a hook

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Speaker 1: for a lanyard, because when you know you're climbing up

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Speaker 1: an icy surface, you don't want to drop this thing

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Speaker 1: down into what they call it a cravas isn't that

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Speaker 1: what they call it? I think, uh say crevice, but

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Speaker 1: a crevasse, And so it's always going to be kind

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Speaker 1: of hanging from your wrist. And for whatever reason, Gunnerson

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Speaker 1: has decided to use this tool in order to just

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Speaker 1: absolutely obliterate this poor young woman, Catherine Fam.

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Speaker 2: This was not a long term dating relationship between Daniel

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Speaker 2: Gunnerson and Katie Fam. She's twenty one years old. She

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Speaker 2: has gone out with him over a month long period

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Speaker 2: of time. Liked him, but not a serious relationship to

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Speaker 2: her at all. Meanwhile, Daniel Gunnerson had become enamored, infatuated

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Speaker 2: over the moon with her. He wanted a deep, devoted

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Speaker 2: relationship with Katie Fam. She was not only unwilling, but

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Speaker 2: basically again the only dady couple of weeks. You're talking

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Speaker 2: four weeks time, and in that four weeks time, she

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Speaker 2: had seen some things that actually would have been red

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Speaker 2: flags Joe in particular. Just to give you an idea,

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Speaker 2: because Daniel Gunnerson gets into this thinking is the long term,

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Speaker 2: big deal for him relationship and she's not. He picked

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Speaker 2: her up from Las Vegas, bringing her back home and

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Speaker 2: she was on the phone talking to somebody else. It

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Speaker 2: was Katie and one of her friends that were riding

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Speaker 2: in the car, and Daniel Gunnerson got so frustrated that

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Speaker 2: she wasn't giving him all of her attention. She was

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Speaker 2: on the phone, and it frustrated him, and then he

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Speaker 2: got mad. And then they're driving. He's weeping in and

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Speaker 2: out of traffic. He's almost wrecking not just them, but

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Speaker 2: other cars. He's driving so crazy because Katie fam is

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Speaker 2: on the phone talking to somebody that the friend, the

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Speaker 2: girl that rode with him, actually made him stop the

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Speaker 2: car and let her drive. That's how crazy he was acting.

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Speaker 2: He was, in his mind in a really deep, committed

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Speaker 2: relationship with Katie, and she meanwhile, it was just a

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Speaker 2: guy she went out with. So the night before at

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Speaker 2: katie FAM's apartment, there's a guy there, there's nothing going on,

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Speaker 2: and Daniel Gunnerson made a scene. It was a scene

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Speaker 2: that was bad enough that the next morning he went

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Speaker 2: to his stepfather's house and said, we're breaking up, crying

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Speaker 2: on his step dad's shoulder and all that. And I'm

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Speaker 2: guessing based on what took place that the stepdad said,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's not too far gone. Apologize to her.

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Speaker 2: Don't do it over the phone. You got to do

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Speaker 2: it face to face. Man up, apologize for being an idiot,

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Speaker 2: and you know see what happens. Well, Daniel Gunnerson took

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Speaker 2: part of this and did just that. He did go

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Speaker 2: to Katie and apologize enough that she agreed to go

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Speaker 2: with him. They went back to Daniel Gunnerson's stepfather's house. Now,

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Speaker 2: at the house there's a huge garage for parking the

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Speaker 2: RV and things like that, and there were a number

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Speaker 2: of people doing work on the house some upgrades are

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Speaker 2: being done, and there was a whole group of painters

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Speaker 2: and so when Daniel Gunnerson gets there, he gets Katie

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Speaker 2: Fam out of the car and they walk into the garage.

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Speaker 2: They're not there very long when the painters, the painting crew,

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Speaker 2: they start hearing a girl's screams and some pushing and

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Speaker 2: dragging a round of things. It's enough to get their

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Speaker 2: attention and one of the guys decides to go and

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Speaker 2: check it out. And when he opens the door to

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Speaker 2: the garage, he sees Katie Fam, the twenty one year

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Speaker 2: old girl he had just seen a few minutes earlier,

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Speaker 2: on the ground on a sofa cover, naked, bleeding everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and Daniel Gunnerson is standing over her body on a

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Speaker 2: step ladder, soaked in blood. I don't know how you

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Speaker 2: react to that, Joe, I don't.

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Speaker 1: Either, And that you know, it's fascinating that you should

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Speaker 1: bring this up because the reactions of those painters that

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Speaker 1: were in there, that you know, we're coming back into

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Speaker 1: this area to actually do more work. I think their

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Speaker 1: intention had been to be in there to paint in

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Speaker 1: this particular location. But when you're hearing screams emanating from

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Speaker 1: this RV garage and you know it's probably going to echo.

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Speaker 1: You can just imagine and that high shrill pitch that

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Speaker 1: an individual would make as they're being injured over and over,

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Speaker 1: and those pain centers are just absolutely screaming out. Not

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Speaker 1: to mention, maybe a lower roar that's coming forward from

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Speaker 1: him as he is attacking her, that would have drawn

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Speaker 1: their attention pretty quickly. But yeah, to walk in see

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator standing there, just saturated in this woman's blood,

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Speaker 1: This poor young woman, her body sprawled before you, almost

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Speaker 1: like she's been sacrificed in some bizarre way, partially disrobed.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine if you're one of those workers,

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Speaker 1: you think, have I just opened Kate the head. You

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Speaker 1: hear people express themselves when they see these horrible traumatic events.

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Speaker 1: As I've heard people say, and I've said it, you

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Speaker 1: can't take its measure. You can in this case, you

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Speaker 1: can take its measure based upon the injuries that Katie

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Speaker 1: fam sustained. She actually sustained Dave ten defects to her body.

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Speaker 1: And I was trying to envision this in my mind.

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Speaker 1: If you were to describe an injury that was generated

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Speaker 1: with one of the these ice axes, And just imagine,

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Speaker 1: if you will, just for a second day, if you

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Speaker 1: were to take that that ice axe and flip it

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Speaker 1: so that you're looking right at the leading edge of

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Speaker 1: the point of that act and as it kind of

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Speaker 1: tapers out. What's fascinating about this just from a clinical

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Speaker 1: standpoint and assessment standpoint, when you begin to assess these

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Speaker 1: injuries at the scene, do you know what these these

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Speaker 1: little insults are going to be? Shaped like these little defects, triangles? Actually,

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Speaker 1: really that's that's the that's their appearance. And here's here's

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Speaker 1: kind of a little aside that that I'm I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of fascinated with. You notice that, and not too many armies,

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Speaker 1: I guess armies carry them now as more of a

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Speaker 1: dress uniform. A bayonet is carried by soldiers and whatnot,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's generally carried in a sheath or scabbard

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Speaker 1: on the side. You've heard in old movies where they'll say,

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Speaker 1: prepared to assault fixed bayonets and they'll draw the bayonet

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Speaker 1: and they'll attach it to the end of the rifle. Well,

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Speaker 1: the bayonets that we have in the modern term are

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Speaker 1: an edged weapon. Did you know that they had to

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Speaker 1: outlaw a type of bayonet that we used to use

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Speaker 1: going into going into World War One, and it was

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Speaker 1: triangular shape. And one of the reasons that they had

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Speaker 1: to outlaw this device is because it violated the Code

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Speaker 1: of War because if you stab someone with a sharp

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Speaker 1: instrument that is triangular in shape, those injuries are most

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Speaker 1: almost impossible to stem the flow of blood from because

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Speaker 1: of their configuration, Whereas if you have a bladed edge,

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Speaker 1: a single bladed edge, it's going to be there's a

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Speaker 1: higher likelihood that that person might survive under those circumstances.

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Speaker 1: They actually outlawed that triangular shape that you see. It's

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Speaker 1: a gruesome looking item, but when you look at this

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Speaker 1: ice axe, that's exactly the way it looks to me.

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking about this. You know, Katie was

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Speaker 1: actually attacked where she was struck on not just the face,

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Speaker 1: but about the head, about the neck, and the chest.

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Speaker 1: So he is striking her multiple times. First off, that

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Speaker 1: means a couple of things when you think about the

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Speaker 1: dynamics of an attack like this. He's got her in

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Speaker 1: a location which I don't know that she's ever been

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Speaker 1: in this location before. Remember they're new in this relationship.

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Speaker 1: This is his stepfather's home. It's an RV garage. She

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Speaker 1: is literally at his mercy, and I can only imagine

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Speaker 1: that if there is an outer door, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be pulled shut behind her. And here she is trapped

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Speaker 1: inside of this location with a monster, and he has

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Speaker 1: a lot of anger. He's got her positioned in this

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Speaker 1: environment so that when he attacks her, everything is in

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Speaker 1: the upper body, the chest, the neck, and the head.

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Speaker 1: So the chances that she's going to be able to

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Speaker 1: find this guy off or deflect any of these injuries

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Speaker 1: is going to be almost nil. He's going to kill

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Speaker 1: her once he sets out with this weapon, because that's

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Speaker 1: you're not using this just to intimidate her. I guess

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Speaker 1: that at some point in time he could have, but

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Speaker 1: he set out to take her in there. He knew

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Speaker 1: specifically that that weapon was in there. And by the

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Speaker 1: way I looked it up, the length of the handle

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Speaker 1: of this thing is actually two feet in length. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean? Well, if you'll take your hand, if

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Speaker 1: you're listening to my voice, and you extend your hand

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Speaker 1: out with and imagine that you've got, say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: like a baseball bat in your hand, and you extend

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Speaker 1: it you've just increased if you're going to strike somebody,

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Speaker 1: you've just increased your ability to transfer energy not from

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Speaker 1: your hand but to the end of that bat, the

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Speaker 1: barrel of that bat that you're swinging down on somebody with.

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Speaker 1: With this ice axe, you're literally taking this weapon, this tool,

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Speaker 1: and every bit of energy as you raise this thing

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Speaker 1: above your head and drive it downward, it's transferring from

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Speaker 1: your shoulder, down your arm, through your wrist, your hand,

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Speaker 1: that two foot long handle, all the way up the

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Speaker 1: shaft of that handle, and into that the head of

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Speaker 1: that axe, And in that one millisecond, every bit of

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Speaker 1: that energy transfers from that little tip, that little point

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Speaker 1: as it's driven down through Katy's body. Making sense of

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Speaker 1: the senseless. Unfortunately, families of victims many times look to

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Speaker 1: us in my field to ask us to make sense

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Speaker 1: of things, and listen, we can't. I'm telling you that

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Speaker 1: we can explain the mechanics of things. We can talk

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Speaker 1: about the science of it. We can talk about a

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Speaker 1: measurement of death or a length of time it might

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Speaker 1: take for someone to die, to bleed out. We can

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Speaker 1: talk about how long they've been dead. We can discuss

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Speaker 1: all of that, but to make sense of it. You can't.

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Speaker 1: There's not sufficient vocabulary in order to make that happen.

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Speaker 2: At a certain point in time. You look at human

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Speaker 2: beings in wonder how did this one come sing to

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Speaker 2: do this? And in this particular case, we're looking at

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Speaker 2: a man who is immature emotionally because the girl is

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Speaker 2: not as into him as he is into her. He

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Speaker 2: was able to talk his way back there by apologizing

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Speaker 2: and getting her to hop in the car and go

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Speaker 2: back to his stepfather's house. So she saw something in

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Speaker 2: this guy that was there. He's able to put up

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Speaker 2: a facade or something because he didn't look crazy or

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Speaker 2: act crazy or desperate or angry when he picked up.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't really a short window here. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: five minutes, ten minutes, It wasn't twenty minutes. According to

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Speaker 2: the police report, I pulled up from the Kerrent County

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Speaker 2: District Attorney's office, it was an hour from the time

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Speaker 2: the painters outside heard screaming and then heard shuffling going

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Speaker 2: around inside that big garage. They waited an hour and

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Speaker 2: that's when they went in. We know that when the

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Speaker 2: painter opened the door or he sees Katie fam naked, bloody,

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Speaker 2: face down on the floor. The report says that Gunnerson

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Speaker 2: touched her remains in a sexual manner. I've heard of

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Speaker 2: every other thing, from you know, assault to necrophilia, but

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Speaker 2: I've never heard anybody referred to it as touched her

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Speaker 2: remains in a sexual manner because there was, as far

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Speaker 2: as we know, no eyewitness to this. So how do

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Speaker 2: you get to say that term touched her remains in

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Speaker 2: a sexual manner? I don't understand that.

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Speaker 1: That tactile ability that we possess as humans, that that

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Speaker 1: thing that we need in order to make it through life,

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Speaker 1: where we touch and kind of feel our way through

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Speaker 1: our through our world. It starts when we're you know,

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Speaker 1: just just little ones. And the fact that they're using touch,

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Speaker 1: I've heard them actually use the word. I think that

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Speaker 1: it was one of her relatives that actually used the

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Speaker 1: word toy, which has a a very disturbing connotation to me.

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Speaker 1: It plays into this case in particular because there's one

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Speaker 1: more thing I didn't mention to you, Dave, that I

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Speaker 1: think bears repeating. The police discovered not only did he

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Speaker 1: have access to this ice axe, he also donned gloves

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Speaker 1: that were there. It sounds like they were work gloves.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps they're very non specific about this, and one of

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Speaker 1: two things kind of come up in mind. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember just a few seconds ago when we were chatting

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Speaker 1: and I talked about the area of her injuries on

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Speaker 1: her body. We talked about the head, we talked about

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Speaker 1: the neck, and we talked about the chest. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: if that's the case, I wonder if when they begin

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Speaker 1: to exam in her body, if he because he is

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Speaker 1: supposedly and they use this term in one of the descriptions,

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Speaker 1: his body is smeared in blood. His own body is

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Speaker 1: smeared in blood. So that means smearing of blood is

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Speaker 1: not like contact transfer, like when you hear us talk about,

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Speaker 1: uh if somebody comes in contact with a pool of

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Speaker 1: blood or uh they're fighting somebody and you you you

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Speaker 1: contact and transfer blood. No, no, no, that's not what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: They're saying his body, Dave, his person was smeared with blood.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if he took those gloves off, and there's

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Speaker 1: evidence that they discovered not only at the scene, but

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Speaker 1: probably at autopsy as well, where they could see bloody

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Speaker 1: handprints adjacent to her genitalia, perhaps where he's he is

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Speaker 1: now transferring blood, her own blood that's coming from the

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Speaker 1: upper body, and he's going into these private areas of

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Speaker 1: her body because when she was founded, she was found

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Speaker 1: what they call a prone position. And for those that

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Speaker 1: don't know what a prone prone position is, that's face down.

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Speaker 1: If you flip a body over that supine. I prefer

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Speaker 1: to use the term supine and prone because you can

340
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Speaker 1: be in a prone position and not be face down.

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Speaker 1: In my line of work, I've seen heads turned all

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Speaker 1: the way around on bodies and broken neck So it's nonspecific.

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Speaker 1: But when you begin to think about what he did

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Speaker 1: with the body afterwards, that plays into how the police

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00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,479
Speaker 1: begin to handle this case. And it also plays in

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Speaker 1: I think to how someone that was attempting to mount

347
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Speaker 1: a defense of this person, they would use the post

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00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:09,479
Speaker 1: mortem activity, probably to attempt to demonstrate that Gunnerson was

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Speaker 1: not in his right mind when he was he was

350
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Speaker 1: perpetrating these actions against Katie, both in the anti mortem

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Speaker 1: state and the post mortem state. Because let's face it,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you you know how I talked early on,

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Speaker 1: when we were chatting, I talked about those people that

354
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Speaker 1: received those notices in the mail. It's probably the last

355
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Speaker 1: thing they were expecting, Dave. And they're sitting there and

356
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Speaker 1: they're certainly not prepared to not only hear about someone

357
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Speaker 1: killed with an ice axe in central California, but now

358
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Speaker 1: they're having to deal with necrophilia. And isn't it interesting?

359
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: It seems to me many times with cases like this,

360
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: the more obscene something is, the more egregious, the more

361
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: unbelievable it is, many times that can actually work in

362
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Speaker 1: the favor of the accused.

363
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Speaker 2: Well, it was her father, by the way, it was

364
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: Thomas fam This said. What kind of an animal would

365
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: find it entertaining to butcher a girl with an ice

366
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Speaker 2: axe and then toy with her body? Can I go

367
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: back to something Joe on the side.

368
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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

369
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Speaker 2: According to police reports, Daniel Gunnerson hit her with the

370
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Speaker 2: ice axe at least ten times. Yes, I say at least,

371
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Speaker 2: because they were spread around neck, head, face. Are we

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Speaker 2: talking swinging it like an axe a traditional act? Swinging

373
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Speaker 2: it like that? What kind of injuries are going to

374
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Speaker 2: occur compared to like the skull to the neck to

375
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Speaker 2: the face. I would think they'd be a little different

376
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: hitting me in the back of the head.

377
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: They would, And a lot of the stuff. You're not

378
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: going to appreciate it. That's why autopsies are so important. Okay,

379
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: this is a perfect example of this day because when

380
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: you remember how I said that the insult, the defect

381
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: to the body might very well appear to be a triangle.

382
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: You know, when you're assessing this the skin, the tension

383
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: of the skin will allow allow for this to present,

384
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: particularly when you clean off the blood, which is something

385
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: that we do at autopsy. We clean up all the

386
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: blood off the body. It's foolish, not too right. I

387
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: mean that just makes sense so that we can understand externally.

388
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: But when you when you let's say, for instance, you

389
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: have a strike to the head with this ice pick,

390
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: that triangular shaped element of the blade as it enters

391
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: that external table of the skull, you'll have you'll have

392
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: like a little defect or a hole in the external

393
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: table of skull. But you're also going to have extensive fracturing.

394
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: Whereas if you go to say, for instance, the neck,

395
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: and we're not I'm not talking about like the vertebral

396
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: bodies in the neck, not say that there's not something there,

397
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: but the non bony prominences it's going to drive through

398
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: the soft tissue into the the trachea, up into the larynx,

399
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: perhaps through the vessels, and you'll see almost like a

400
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 1: bullet track that runs through there, but it's only impacting soft,

401
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: soft tissues. So each one of these assessments is going

402
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: to be different. And here's here's kind of the way

403
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: the way it'll play out in the morgue. And we've

404
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: talked about this extensively before, but it bears repeating in

405
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: Katie's case. As you examine these insults, Dave, what you're

406
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: trying to determine is, since we've got somebody that is

407
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: toying with the body and death, how many of these

408
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: injuries came after she was dead? And the the way

409
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: that we figure that out is to try to determine

410
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: if there is or is not hemorrhage present in the

411
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: wound tracks. And we can't necessarily sequence them where we

412
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: go one, two, three, You know it happened like this

413
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: and like this and like this. You can't do that,

414
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: But what you can do is separate those things that

415
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: happened either in the anti mortem during life state or

416
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: the post mortem after death state.

417
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: I'm looking at this Joe, how he was able to

418
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 2: convince her to go into the garage with him. But

419
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: then I'm thinking of the painters. You see a young

420
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: man and a young woman walk into a big RV

421
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: garage and you hear the girl screaming. Somebody being attacked

422
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: with such an item as an ice axe is not

423
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: going to have a light, giggly scream. This is going

424
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: to be a scream in terror, knowing she's going to

425
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: scream for her life. This is a sick crime from

426
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: beginning to end. Yes, the damage done to this woman's

427
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: head and face. He was out to destroy that thing

428
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: that he fell in love with because he hadn't been

429
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: whether long enough to know her. He doesn't know her,

430
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: He only knows her physicality, her face, and he's trying

431
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: to wreck that one thing that has rejected him in

432
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 2: his mind. It boggles my mind that here we are,

433
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: and that his attorney, I'm not kidding, Joe when I

434
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: tell you this. His attorney actually suggested in court that

435
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: he didn't do it, that somebody else could have stuck

436
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: into the grudge. He takes her in there, somebody else

437
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: comes in, does the damage, and he's just there in

438
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: a steady shocking doesn't and the real criminal got away.

439
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, the fact that in the fact that he is

440
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: absolutely saturated with her blood that again has been smeared

441
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: on his person as if he's participating in some kind

442
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: of ritual with the body and her body there laid

443
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: out before him. I think that, you know, why is

444
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: he not running into this if he's not the perpetrator,

445
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: why is he not running into the streets screaming murder

446
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: at the top of his lungs, asking the police to

447
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: show up? And to that point, all of that is

448
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: absent in this case. And I can tell you this,

449
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: during the course of this trial, there were women on

450
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: the jury that were subjected to hearing all of this.

451
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: There were nine women, three men, and there was weeping

452
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: throughout the courtroom. There was weeping because for that moment,

453
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: that instant in time, they understood in her last moments,

454
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: what Katie had gone through, at least some at some level,

455
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: certainly not the full force of it, but they understood.

456
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: And as it turned out, Daniel Gunson was in fact

457
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: found guilty of Katie's murder, and he was sentenced to

458
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: twenty four years to life imprisonment. If you or anyone

459
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: that you know is currently in an abusive relationship, is

460
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: in fear of their life, Please have them call one

461
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: eight hundred seven nine Safe. That's one eight hundred seven

462
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: ninety nine seven two three three. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

463
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: and this is Bodyback