1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: the world, you know the deal. It is so great 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: to have you here back for another episode as we, 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: of course break down the psychology of our twenties, dealing 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: with our mental health. Our mindset in our twenties or 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: any age can feel like an extremely uphill battle, and 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: a lot of us are definitely looking for a solution 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: or looking for some magical cure, some way out a 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: better way to cope with our everyday experience. So when 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: we hear about something is seemingly life changing as psychedelic 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: treatment for our mental health, I think a lot of 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: our ears immediately perk up. You know, these drug set 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: for such a long time have been really associated with 15 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: like a party stone and lifestyle. Like there's suddenly being 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: talked about a lot in the healthcare community, and this 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: scene is very, very promising, even though the FDA did 18 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: recently reject the use of MDMA therapy to treat PTSD. 19 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: As we are recording this, it does seem like in 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: general across the world, like the tide is really turning, 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: and I think we have a lot of questions, what 22 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: does this actually entail? What would it feel like? Could this, 23 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, one day be as common as treatment as antidepressants. 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: And it's such an evolving space personally, one that I'm 25 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: so fascinated by. But I'm definitely not an expert in 26 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,839 Speaker 1: so today I thought I would bring on someone who 27 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: is someone who knows so much about this, more than me, 28 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: more than the average person, more than most of us 29 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: for that matter, Paul Austin, the founder of Third Wave. 30 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. 31 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: Thank you, Jimmy. It's great to be here. I love 32 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: the introduction. You touched on so many hot items when 33 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: it comes to mental health and psychedelics, and I'm so 34 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: excited to be able to talk with your audience about 35 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: this today. It's a topic that's become very popular these 36 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: last five or six years, and there's still a lot 37 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: of unknowns about it. So I'm hopeful that we can 38 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: clear up some of these misconceptions and provide a great 39 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: contextual understanding of what these medicines can do. 40 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: Well, can you just tell us a little bit about 41 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: yourself before we get into it. What's third Wave like? 42 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: What's been your experience that has gotten to the point 43 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: of being like basically an expert psychedelic coach. 44 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: So I grew up in a very traditional family in 45 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 2: the Midwest, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Church was the center point 46 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: of my upbringing, not in a fundamentalist way, but in 47 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: a sort of strict You're going to church every Sunday 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: and this is what we do as a family. And 49 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: so as part of that, naturally, my parents were very 50 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: anti drug They were very against especially illegal drugs like 51 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: you know, weed and cocaine and heroin and psychedelics. And 52 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 2: at the age of sixteen, my best friend in high 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: school introduced me to cannabis. I started to experiment with 54 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: cannabis a little bit until my parents found out and 55 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: they sat me down one Sunday after church, and my 56 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: dad looked at me and said, you know, I haven't 57 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: been this disappointed since my brother passed away in a 58 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: car accident thirty years before that. Before we had sat 59 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: down before they found out that I had smoked cannabis. 60 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: So clearly it was a monumental impactful thing that their 61 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: only son had decided to start to experiment with cannabis. Now, 62 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: what I felt in that experience was I felt happy, 63 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 2: I felt laughter, I felt like. It was very curiosity provoking, 64 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: and I was starting to learn more and more about 65 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: cannabis at that time. Why was it illegal? Why was 66 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: it prohibited? Was it as bad as we thought it was? 67 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: And so that started to lead me down this path 68 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: of what Carl Jung would say is called individuation, which 69 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: is the path of becoming oneself right where I was like, clearly, 70 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: this person who I'm becoming won't be accepted by my family. 71 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to have to just keep this part of 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: myself closed off. And soon after that, when I was nineteen, 73 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: that same friend who introduced me to cannabis introduced me 74 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: to psilocybin mushrooms, and at the age of nineteen, I 75 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: had my first experience with psilocybin mushrooms. Soon after that, 76 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: I started to experiment with LSD a little bit as well. 77 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: And whereas cannabis was like fun and I laughed a 78 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: lot and helped me to get over some social anxiety, 79 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: psychedelics are very profound. There were some really deep insights 80 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 2: and awarenesses that I came to, one of which was 81 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: I'm not meant to live a conventional lifestyle. That life 82 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 2: is much more malleable than I previously had thought I 83 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: can create how I want to create, so why not 84 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: do that? So soon after university I moved abroad. I 85 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: taught English and Turkey for a year. I became a 86 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: digital nomad. Soon after that worked and traveled everywhere, and 87 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: at the age of twenty four, was in Budapest. This 88 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: was twenty fifteen, almost ten years ago. Notice that more 89 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: and more people were starting to talk about psychedelics, Joe 90 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 2: Rogan and Tim Ferris, and more clinical research was coming 91 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: out about it. Cannabis was being re evaluated and legalized, 92 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 2: and I thought, I think this is going to become 93 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: the next thing. So in twenty fifteen I started Third 94 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 2: Wave with the intention of making psychedelic education more accessible 95 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 2: and more available to everyone. And so the idea of 96 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 2: this third wave of psychedelics is that the first wave 97 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: was the ancient and indigenous use of psychedelics, the second 98 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: wave was the counterculture the fifties and sixties, and then 99 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: this third wave of psychedelics is the modern sort of 100 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: renaissance around psychedelic substances. And I believe it's critical that 101 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 2: as part of this we both honor the lineage and 102 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: the indigenous wisdom of these medicines, and we also utilize 103 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: best practices based on scientific frame works and what we 104 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: know about these psychedelics and how they interact with the 105 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 2: body and the brain. So here I am talking about psychedelics, 106 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 2: talking about microdocene and it's been a pretty wild ride 107 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: these last you know, ten years or so, as they 108 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 2: really started to come into prominent mainstream attention. 109 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: Oh, I love that summary, and I really really love 110 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: what you said about combining the ancient indigenous wisdom with 111 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: some of the more like I don't know, i'd hate 112 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: to say like Western, but some of the more scientific, 113 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: like quote unquote scientific ways of seeing how this impacts 114 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: our brain. And of course I'm sure there have been 115 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: so many populations who have been able to witness this 116 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: since like the dawn of time, but a lot of 117 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: their knowledge has been snuffed out through a lot of impacts, 118 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: through colonization, through just like a genuine disinterest in anything 119 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: that was like countered to what a Western belief was. 120 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: So I really liked that we're acknowledging that because I 121 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: don't know, I just feel like there are so many 122 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: things that we're returning to the roots of I think 123 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: about how there's been this like huge biological reductionism of 124 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: so much to do with mental health, and now people 125 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: are like, hey, what if we you know, just made 126 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: sure that people had community, and what if we like 127 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: went back to a sense of purpose And this feels 128 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: very ache into that, like very similar of a returning 129 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: to something that's been known for a long time. With 130 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: your experience, what did you find that it kind of 131 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: unlocked for you? I know you you spoke quite generally 132 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: about it, but did you see like a shift in 133 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 1: how you saw the world, your attitudes towards the world, 134 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: or just your own mental well being? 135 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: No. One of the core things was this re connection 136 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: to spirit will call it or God or source or oneness. 137 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: You know. I mentioned I had been raised in the church. 138 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: It was a Protestant, so you know, there's Catholic. Was Protestant. 139 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: You're a Protestant. And it was very dry. It was beautiful, 140 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: but it was very dry. We'd sing hymns, we'd say 141 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: the prayers, we'd read the Bible verses, but it wasn't 142 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 2: I didn't really get it. I never really experienced God 143 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: in its full entirety. And that's true. I think of 144 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 2: the majority of people who grow up in a religious environment. 145 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: It's a lot of the rituals, it's a lot of 146 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: the prayers, it's a lot of the hymns, but it's 147 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: not a lot of the direct experience. And so I 148 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: was becoming an atheist until I started to work with 149 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: high doses of LSD and psilocybin mushrooms. And when I 150 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: had those experiences, all of a sudden, it helped to 151 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: almost remind me of how connected I was to something 152 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: greater than myself. It sort of reopened this concept of 153 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: spirituality for me, and that had a number of downstream 154 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: positive benefits, one of which was I recognized that I 155 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: was deeply connected to everything around me. So the sort 156 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: of classic cliche of LSD and psychedelics is hip hugging trees, right, 157 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 2: And yet anyone who's done a psychedelic in nature understands 158 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: that because there is this deep love and connection to 159 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: everything around us. And how the indigenous peoples who worked 160 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: with these substances their interactions with it was because it 161 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 2: helped them to remember that they were just these organisms. 162 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: So they were just these people that were part of nature, 163 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: not above or better than nature. So I experienced that 164 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: a deep and profound connection to the natural environment. I 165 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 2: also experienced a sense of comfort with myself, or authenticity 166 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: of who I was and who I am. That when 167 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,239 Speaker 2: raised in a very religious environment, you are often shamed 168 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: for who you are or guilted into behaving a certain way. 169 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: And when I started to work with psychedelics, I came 170 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 2: to realize, oh, I could just let go of a 171 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: lot of that conditioning. At my core, at my essence, 172 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 2: there's actually a deep sort of sense of innocence and 173 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,719 Speaker 2: love and purity, and I could tap back into that 174 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: and remember that, which helped me again, as cliche as 175 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: it may sound, to love myself again and love myself 176 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: in a very deep way. And I think the outcome 177 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: of that then was a lot of the depression and 178 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 2: anxiety that I'd struggle with when I started to work 179 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: with psychedelics. Intentionally, they just helped me to commit to 180 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 2: meditating more often, eating healthier, spending more time in nature, 181 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: spending less time on screens, committing to practices and behaviors 182 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 2: that ended up having a really positive and beneficial effect 183 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 2: on my mental health. Because certainly, when we take a 184 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: psychedelic that's doing some really interesting things to the brain. 185 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: That's great for some of these clinical conditions, but a 186 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: lot of it is how are we changing our behaviors 187 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: after the fact and who we hang out with and 188 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: who we spend time with. And psychedelics help that because 189 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 2: they facilitate something called neuroplasticity. But it's not just the 190 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: drug that's a magic pill. It really is a catalyst 191 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 2: for change, and we still have to commit to making 192 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: those changes in our everyday life if we want to 193 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: live better and feel better on an everyday basis. 194 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: And that's the thing. If anyone ever offers you like 195 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: a magic pill to cure every single problem in your life, 196 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: walk away like that's yeah, being highly, highly skeptical. And 197 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: I think it's great that you're saying that about this 198 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: as well, right, Like you can do you can take anything, 199 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: any substance under the sun, but if you don't do 200 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: something with the experience and put that into practice afterwards, 201 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: it's not gonna work. I also really like what you 202 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: said about experiencing a sense of oneness. And we had 203 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: someone on just recently called doctor A. Samilla, who is 204 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: a professor from Columbia who talks about spirituality and psychology, 205 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of us have, you know, 206 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: who've experienced religion the institution of religion over the years 207 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: feel very like silenced by it, restricted by it, and 208 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: feels very clinical. But there's this new wave of people 209 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: who are like actually having a sense of purpose, feeling 210 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: that there is something divine and bigger is incredibly psychologically nourishing, 211 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: because the opposite of that is feeling like we are 212 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: completely alone, all of us are alone. No one can 213 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: understand our experience that like isolation is completely depressing, Like, 214 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: how does one not experience a level of like endogenous 215 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: mental health experiences if you. 216 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: Really do believe that? 217 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: But I want to move on to the impact on 218 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: the brain, and you talked about your plasticity, probably synaptic 219 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: pruning comes into this. Before we get into that, Actually 220 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: we need to clarify one thing which we haven't clarified yet, 221 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: Like I'm getting ahead of myself. What does it mean 222 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: when people say that psychedelics or medically supervised microturcing could 223 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: be used to treat things like addictional PTSD or end 224 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: of life care, Like, what do they actually mean? We've 225 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: talked someone about like more recreational usage shifting to like 226 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: more of a medical environment or being used in mainstream 227 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: care is someone literally going to give you a tap 228 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: of acid and say off you go, like go and 229 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: walk around. 230 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: So in the nineteen fifties when LSD first came on 231 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: the scene, it was invented in nineteen thirty eight, psychedelic 232 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: properties were discovered in nineteen forty three. It was used 233 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: for about the first fifteen to twenty years within strictly 234 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 2: clinical environments to see what impact it would have on addiction, anxiety, depression. 235 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: Like I said, over one thousand clinical papers were published 236 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: on the efficacy of LC to trade a range of conditions, 237 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: And unfortunately, when it got out into the mainstream culture 238 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 2: and was associated with Timothy Leary and turn on, tune 239 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: and drop out, the government prohibited and shut down not 240 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 2: only the recreational use but also the clinical research. And 241 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: that wasn't resuscitated until the late nineties when JOHNS. Hopkins 242 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: started to study this relationship between psilocybin and what they 243 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 2: called mystical type experiences or you know, experiencing God. And 244 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: what they found in that early clinical research is that 245 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: the more profound of an experience, the spiritual experience an 246 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 2: individual had, the more likely it was to heal the 247 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: depression or heal their addiction or heal you know, OCD, 248 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: or some of these other clinical indications that they were 249 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: struggling with. So on the one hand, it could be 250 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: described at a spiritual level that when we experience the 251 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: profundity of psychedelics, we are connected to this source of 252 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: unconditional love. And when we feel in our every sort 253 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: of part of our body that experience of unconditional love, 254 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: it has these incredible impacts in our capacity to love, 255 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: our capacity to be with ourselves, to understand ourselves, and 256 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: again most importantly, to start to make changes in our 257 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: everyday life that really honor and acknowledge that sense of 258 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: self love. Now, if we look at it from a 259 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: neuroscientific lens, the common thread between depression, anxiety, addiction, OCD, 260 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: even PTSD is that when you do brain scans with 261 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: people who struggle with these clinical conditions, the two hemispheres 262 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 2: of the brain are not actively communicating, right, So the 263 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: brain activity is sort of withering away, And when you 264 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: take a psychedelic it's like you know, putting fertilizer into 265 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: your brain. All of a sudden, it activates both hemispheres. 266 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,479 Speaker 2: Neuronal connectivity gets turned back online. They start to communicate 267 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 2: across the hemispheres again, and that activation allows for a 268 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: loosening of these constricted ways of being. So one of 269 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: the one of the technical terms is called the default 270 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: mode network, and the default mode network is a network 271 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: in our brain that helps us to do our everyday patterning. 272 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: It's sort of the habitual part of our brain that 273 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: is on autopi that allows us to navigate our everyday existence. 274 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: When that becomes too rigid, when that becomes too constricted, 275 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: then people start to notice that they're struggling with depression 276 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: or addiction or anxiety. And so part of interrupting those 277 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: patterns or interrupting those ruts is introducing a psychedelic. And 278 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: so the psychedelic comes in and it creates a more 279 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: entropic system, so more chaos, so to say, and that 280 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: chaos allows for a new perspective, a new look at things, 281 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: which allows people to sort of get out of the 282 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: pattern that they feel they've been stuck in and actually 283 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 2: see that they can experience life in a new and 284 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: unique way, that they don't have to feel that way 285 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 2: all the time, that they can actually feel this other way. 286 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: And then so much of working with a psychedelic when 287 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: it comes to working with a therapist in particular, like 288 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 2: in medical supervision, is it's not only the drug experience, 289 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: but also how that coach or how that therapist or 290 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: psycho hiatrist is supporting you after that drug experience. Because 291 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: when you take a psychedelic, when the brain becomes more entropic, 292 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: then it's opening something called a critical learning period. And 293 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: the critical learning period is like when you're four or 294 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 2: five or six, your brain is in development. It's a sponge. 295 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 2: It's soaking up all of these you know, you know, 296 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 2: language and patterns and social behaviors and music. It can 297 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 2: just soak it all up. And then as we get 298 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: older that that learning period dies away, which is why 299 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: they used to think, okay, when i'm by time you're 300 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: twenty six, you know, you can't teach an old dog 301 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: new tricks. And now what we're discovering about psychedelics is 302 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: it actually reopens that critical learning period for at least 303 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: three to four weeks after the high dose experience. And 304 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: so people have this experience, they're able to see out 305 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: of their depression or out of their addiction, and then 306 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: the therapist or the coach is supporting them in that 307 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: month after to start to integrate what are actually new 308 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: patterns of behavior you can start to implement that will 309 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 2: help you feel this way more often. How do you 310 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: have a more regulated nervous system. How do you not 311 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: eat you know, fast food or processed food. How do 312 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,479 Speaker 2: you get more sunlight and exercise? How do you spend 313 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: more time with loved ones or cut out a toxic relationship? Right, Like, 314 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: the psychedelic can help us to go AHA, but the 315 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 2: therapeutic work, the coaching work, actually allows those AHAs to 316 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: be integrated and become tangible in our everyday life. 317 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: And you can totally see how that would also be 318 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: remarkable for PTSD. Right, you have all this trauma that's 319 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: wired your brain one way, and I'm sure like another 320 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: thing that comes up is like long term potentiation. Right, 321 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: Neurons that fire together, wire together. You've got all these 322 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: major highways in your brain that have been paved in 323 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: concrete that say, this is scary, this is trouble. I 324 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: should be fearful, I should be worried based on these 325 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: previous experiences. And it sounds like when you introduce a psychedelic, 326 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a tornado comes through. It might 327 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: seem kind of scary. But with that opportunity, you can say, actually, no, 328 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: like that road doesn't really fit here anymore. That road 329 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: like isn't really leading me to places where I want 330 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: to go. Like the roads being the neural highways and 331 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: your brain, and so it allows for that neuroplasticity, as 332 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: you said. And another really fascinating point that you brought 333 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: up that I absolutely love that you said, is this 334 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: misconception that our brains are fully developed, were done by 335 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: the time what twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven for men, 336 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: twenty five around for women. And that is just being 337 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: pro And I know that I've said that on the 338 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: show before. I've been like, yeah, you know, your brain 339 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: only gets fully developed at twenty five. It's like absolutely not. Yes, 340 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: Like you have this frontal like your frontal load basically 341 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: like locks into place. But within your brain there's so 342 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: much opportunity for flexibility. It's why as people get older, 343 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: their personality changes. It's why we see a decline actually 344 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: in the experience of mental health as people get older 345 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: as well, like past their fifties and sixties. So the 346 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: brain is constantly evolving. Has there been any longitudinal or 347 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: like in depth studies on introducing psychedelics to a population 348 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: group or to like a group of participants in seeing 349 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: what's happened, Like, is there a study you can pull 350 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: out that is, like a pretty important one that says 351 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: this has changed people's lives or this has had this impact. 352 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I mean kind of a few notes here 353 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: to highlight in the in the like twenty ten, twenty eleven, 354 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: maybe twenty twelve, there was a research paper published. There 355 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 2: was a lot longitudinal research paper that essentially I'd ask 356 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: people who have been using psychedelics for forty or fifty 357 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: years since the nineteen sixties, are you healthy? Are you okay? 358 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 2: You know, because a lot of the sort of mainstream 359 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: stigma was all these psychedelic users, are you know, dropping 360 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 2: out or becoming schizophrenic or losing their mind? And what 361 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: they found was when you look at it over a 362 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,959 Speaker 2: long time frame, psychedelics are really well tolerated by the 363 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 2: majority of people in a population that you do have, 364 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: you know, the one percent who are schizophrenic or have 365 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: potentially a personality disorder that should not be working with psychedelics, 366 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: but that the broad population can tolerate psychedelics really really 367 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: quite easily and quite well. Now, in the last twenty years, 368 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: there's been quite a few clinical research papers published on 369 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 2: the efficacy of psychedelics. There's probably i would say three 370 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 2: to emphasize. One is the research on MDMA for PTSD. 371 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: So you mentioned PTSD already. When we have an acute trauma, 372 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: it can often become stored in our body and our brain, 373 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: and that trauma, that emotional imprint will lead to a 374 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: lot of nasty side effects over the long term. When 375 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: you work with something like MDMA, it creates a space 376 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: of safety for the nervous system and for the brain 377 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 2: to heal that underlying trauma, so that trauma can be 378 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 2: opened up, it can be processed, it can be integrated, 379 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: and it's no longer this festering wound that's in the 380 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 2: subconscious of the psyche. It actually gets brought up and 381 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: out and it can be healed and probably worked with 382 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 2: and this nonprofit group MAPS, which has a for profit 383 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: arm called Lycos, they were the ones who attempted to 384 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 2: get MDMA approval. They did phase three clinical trials, so 385 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: it was done over twelve weeks. They had therapists that 386 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 2: were there with them. They did MDMA three times over 387 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 2: those twelve weeks, seventy percent of those participants healed their 388 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 2: PTSD and they had PTSD on average for seventeen years, 389 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: which is wow, it's. 390 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 1: A huge number, seventeen years, huge. 391 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: Number, seven seventeen years, seven zero percent. So that's that's 392 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 2: one really fascinating clinical trial. Another really fascinating clinical trial 393 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: is this is this distinction between how psychedelics work in 394 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 2: the brain and SSRIs work in the brain, because a 395 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: lot of people who are coming into psychedelic work have 396 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 2: been on SSRIs orrently on. 397 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: Well, just quickly saying SSRIs basically antidepressants. 398 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's helpful to clarify. So, and I'll provide a 399 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 2: caveat here. If someone is listening to the who is 400 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: on one of these medications and they're interested in getting off, 401 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 2: make sure you do so under the guidance of a 402 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: medical professional. And there's a substance called ketamine which we 403 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: can talk more about, which is legally and medically available 404 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 2: and can be safely taken with a lot of these 405 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 2: SSRIs under the guidance of a trained medical professional. And 406 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 2: there are a lot of psychiatrists and other clinicians who 407 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: are currently practicing this, but typically a folks ask, I say, 408 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: look at ketemine. It's legal, it's available, it's been cleared 409 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,479 Speaker 2: by the FDA, and check that out. But the research 410 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: paper that I'm referring to compared the mechanism of action 411 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: of psychedelics versus lexapro, Zoloft and these other SSRIs, and 412 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: the big difference was the typical classic SSRIs are almost 413 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: like a band aid. They numb the person. So if 414 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: your typical range of emotion, you know, is one to ten, 415 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: an SSRI is going to make get three to six, 416 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: so the lows aren't going to be as low, but 417 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: you're not going to have the same level of highs either. 418 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: Essentially numbs you and creates the sort of band aid 419 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 2: so you can sort of float, but it doesn't necessarily 420 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: get to the wound that's underneath the core thing. Whereas 421 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 2: with psychedelics they tend to open up the psyche. They 422 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: tend to almost force a catharsis where the underlying trauma 423 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 2: that may be causing the depression or the addiction, which 424 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 2: is in most cases adverse childhood experiences, which for your listeners, 425 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: the ACE score was developed in the nineties. It was 426 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 2: clinically proven that children who had these adverse childhood experiences 427 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 2: were much more likely to be alcoholics, or have addictions, 428 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: or be depressed. And so a lot of the new 429 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: context around mental health is it has a lot to 430 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 2: do with trauma. It's not just serotonin, it's not just biology, 431 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: it's actually the psyche and how it's been treated. And 432 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: so when we work with the psychedelic it opens that 433 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: up and that trauma can start to be healed, That 434 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 2: wound that's been festering underneath can start to be released, 435 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 2: and we can look at it and it can be 436 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: integrated as well. So that's another really interesting research trial. 437 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 2: So the three that I mentioned are longitudinal data from 438 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: the sixties that psychedelics are really well tolerated across thousands 439 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: of people that have been studied, the clinical trial showing 440 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: how effective MDMA is at treating PTSD seventy percent remission 441 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: rate with participants who on average PTSD for seventeen years, 442 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 2: and then showing specifically how are psychedelics different than necessaries, well, 443 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 2: lexipro zolof prozac numb us, whereas psychedelics actually make us 444 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 2: more enlivened and they allow us to get to the 445 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 2: core thing that's underneath the trauma so it doesn't continue 446 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: to persist over the long time. 447 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: I really love that explanation, and I love that you said, 448 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: you know, SSRIs, they have their time and a place, 449 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: And I think it's really difficult because you will go 450 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: to a doctor and that is the first thing that 451 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: they will prescribe you. And of course you're gonna trust 452 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: your doctor, as you should, you know, but I think 453 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: it's also we've gotten to a point where that has 454 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: been the major way of treating things for a long 455 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: time and yet and I'm saying this is someone who 456 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: has been on SSRIs before, and you know, we've been 457 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: doing it for a long time, and yet rates of 458 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: mental health are increasing. So if you can imagine like 459 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: people being like, oh, we have this cure for cancer, 460 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: we have this treatment for cancer, and they're giving it 461 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: to every cancer patient, and yet no one's getting better, 462 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: Like you do have to start asking questions. Also with 463 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: the adverse childhood experiences score really worth looking into, because 464 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: there was a recent study on this and it's really 465 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: interesting because I actually helped with this study. It was 466 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: done in Australia, the child Mail Treatment Study. And you 467 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: might think, like childhood trauma is neglect abuse from parents 468 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: can also be civiling abuse. It can also be bullying. 469 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: It can also be experiencing the death of a parent, 470 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: a natural disaster, a family trauma, financial insecurity. So a 471 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: lot of people might think, well, you know, nothing really 472 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: that bad happened to me when I was a child, 473 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: and then you dig into it and you can be like, yeah, 474 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: but there's also you know, the system that you grew 475 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: up and may not have actually been able to support you. 476 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: It's not all about individual events. It's also about a 477 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: cultural society that may have been emotionally neglectful. But we're 478 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: going to take a short break because I'm getting I'm 479 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: letting time get ahead of me here. I'm so fascinated 480 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: by this conversation, Paul. So we're going to take a 481 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: short break, and when we come back, I want to 482 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: talk about some of the important ethical standards that we 483 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: should be considering when it's not entirely helpful to be 484 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: using psychedelics, and also what the future of this treatment 485 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: might look like. All right, so we're back with Paul Austin, 486 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: the founder of Third Wave. Paul, we have talked a 487 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: lot about how this is like so magical, this treatment 488 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: just sounds absolutely wonderful, and there is just so much 489 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: evidence to prove it, so much research being done currently, 490 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: but we can't talk about this, and I know people 491 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: are going to be like, well, what about schizophrenia? What 492 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: about if I have a really disruptive and distressing experience? 493 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: So what are some of the important kind of ethical 494 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: standards that we need to think about as this practice 495 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: is rapidly growing, both in a personal usage way but 496 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: also in like a medical usage way. 497 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: So what I often say is that the most dangerous 498 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: aspect of psychedelic work is the fact that these are 499 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 2: still illegal almost everywhere. We have seen some momentum over 500 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: the last few years. The state of Oregon has legalized 501 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: psilocybin mushrooms, the state of Colorado has legalized all plant 502 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: medicines psychedelic plant medicines. Jamaica and the Netherlands have legalized 503 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: psilocybin mushrooms. Australia even has rescheduled psilocybin and MDMA from 504 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: Schedule nine to Schedule eight. I believe the TGA did 505 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 2: that last year, so it's becoming more accessible and available. 506 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: But these are still largely illegal substances, and that is, 507 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: in fact the most dangerous part about psychedelics is that 508 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 2: they are illegal. I would say the second aspect of this, 509 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 2: and I mentioned this in the previous section about research 510 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: and the longitudinal studies around psychedelics, is those who have 511 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: a family history of schizophrenia or psychosis, or personal history 512 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: of schizophrenia or psychosis should not be taking psychedelics, even 513 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: at a microdose a very low level. Those who have 514 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: a personality disorder should not be working with psychedelics. Those 515 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 2: who don't feel called to taking psychedelics should not be 516 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 2: taking psychedelics. Right. There does have to be this sort 517 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: of willful choice that's involved if you want to do 518 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: this work, because doing a macro dose a therapeutic dose 519 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 2: of a psychedelic is not necessarily for the faint of heart. 520 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: It can be very intense emotionally, It can be very 521 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: difficult at times. There can be a lot of anger 522 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: and grief and sadness and challenging emotions that come to 523 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 2: the surface that need to be processed and how. And 524 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: that's why it's so critical that when working with psychedelics 525 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 2: you pay attention to set and setting is the number 526 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: one set or mindset is how you come into that experience. 527 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: And setting is a physical environment that you're in. It's 528 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: really critical to have a physical person who is present 529 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 2: with you. That could be for some folks a sitter 530 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: or a friend who is just there to make sure 531 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: you're safe. For those who are really looking at deep 532 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: clinical issues that they're looking to heal and resolve, that 533 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 2: most likely will be a therapist, a trained therapist. There's 534 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: also other guides and shamans and coaches. In fact, through 535 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: the Psychedelic Coaching Institute, we train coaches, therapists, practitioners, and 536 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: guides and what I call the five key elements. And 537 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 2: I'll briefly describe those five key elements because I think 538 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: these are essential to the ethical use of psychedelics for 539 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: those listening at home, that if you're working with a coach, 540 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 2: a guide, a therapist, a practitioner, they should know how 541 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 2: to assess you. So what is the assessment process like? 542 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 2: They should know how to prepare you. How are they 543 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 2: preparing you or what's preparation like for the experience. They 544 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 2: should have a sense of how to facilitate the actual experience. 545 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: You should be asking them questions about what medicine is 546 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: appropriate much of that medicine, where are we going to 547 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: do it. What's the overall flow of the experience. Will 548 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 2: there be music involved? Will there not be music involved? 549 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 2: You know, just getting a sense of some of these 550 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 2: questions for how the experience will go. Integration is key, 551 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: So after we have that experience, will they support you 552 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 2: on an ongoing basis to ensure that that experience can 553 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 2: be woven in back to your everyday life. And then microdosing. 554 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: I say that, you know, most practitioners should know how 555 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 2: microdosing can support the integration process. And microdosing is a 556 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: sub intoxicating dose of a psychedelic It's about one tenth 557 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: of a normal therapeutic dose that people might do two 558 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 2: or three times per week for a period of time 559 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 2: because it helps with mood, energy, sleep, and the a 560 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 2: number of other things. So the ethical use of psychedelics 561 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: comes down to I think those five key elements assessment, preparation, facilitation, integration, 562 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: and microdosing. Now, the final thing that I'll emphasize is 563 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: because psychedelics are illegal because they're pro phiboted, it can 564 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: also be very difficult to get a sense of who 565 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 2: who can I work with right because the other shadowy, 566 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: sort of risky part about working with drugs that make 567 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 2: you more suggestible, that alter your consciousness is there have 568 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 2: been stories out there where people feel like boundaries have 569 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 2: been crossed. You know, they feel like, you know, maybe 570 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 2: they worked with a male shaman or facilitator and there 571 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 2: wasn't consent for a certain type of touch as part 572 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 2: of the experience. So I think the really big ethical 573 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 2: consideration is make sure if you do this experience with 574 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: an individual, you get references or it's that you know 575 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 2: you've had a trusted friend who has sat with them before, 576 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 2: or you know someone who can vet for them. Because 577 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 2: unlike doctors and therapists and you know, these people who 578 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 2: are certified by boards, whether it's you know, a national 579 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 2: board or a state board, there's not a lot of 580 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 2: of mechanisms to report people who might be unethical in 581 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 2: the psychedelic space. And so it's really critical that if 582 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: you're interested in this, that you find a practitioner that 583 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 2: is trustworthy who you can work with. And thankfully you 584 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: know on our website Third Way, we have a directory 585 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 2: of practitioners, so we have retreat centers, clinics, coaches, and 586 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 2: therapists that we've vetted and that we recommend to our 587 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 2: audience as folks that they can work with, because I 588 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 2: do think this is the biggest ethical risk is that 589 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 2: people are not waiting for the law to change to 590 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 2: start to take psychedelics. In fact, last year in the 591 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 2: United States, eight million people took psilocybin mushroom in twenty 592 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 2: twenty three alone. That's three point one percent of the population. 593 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 2: Four million of those people were microdosing. Right, so interest 594 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 2: is growing. But people who are working with this, if 595 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 2: you're going to do a therapeutic dose, a high dose 596 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 2: of a psychedelic, have a guide, have a sitter, have 597 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 2: a therapist, have a coach, a practitioner who you trust 598 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 2: and can hold that space for you as you're navigating. 599 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: That is such helpful advice and it really does point 600 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: to this huge problem. Right, if this isn't legalized, or 601 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: if there is a progress towards making this a genuine 602 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: therapeutic intervention, you do have these problems. And so we 603 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: know that, you know, the current approach of like don't 604 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 1: do those things, just no, don't touch that, like don't 605 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: do drugs whatever. I sound so lame saying that, but 606 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: that way of thinking about it that I think a 607 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: lot of like government bodies want us to take on board. 608 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: Is incredibly unhelpful because people are still going to do it, 609 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: but they end up and can end up not always 610 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: in pretty dangerous situations. I like that you pointed out 611 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: the fact that it is illegal means that there is 612 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: no way to discern at times like whether what you're 613 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: consuming is something that you want to be consuming. You know, 614 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: in Australia we have problems with that with like NDMA 615 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: and it being mixed with things that perhaps you don't 616 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: want to consume. And I just think all of that 617 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: is just more of an argument as to why this 618 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: should be more widely accepted by the medical community. Obviously 619 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: that takes time with needing studies and approval, but until 620 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: that does happen, you are going to see those instances 621 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: that you briefly spoke about which don't dominate the experience, 622 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: as well of it being unsafe because people aren't bettered 623 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: by you know, you don't imagine like if you had 624 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: this approved course, like what it would take to become 625 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: a psychologist or a surgeon, so people could know that 626 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: they were going to an expert. And it sounds like 627 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: you're kind of doing some of that work before the 628 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: traditional medical community catches up and that kind of brings 629 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: me to a great question and probably one of my 630 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: final questions. Firstly, what is holding us back? Is it 631 00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:01,439 Speaker 1: just stigma? And secondly, if you could like envision where 632 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: this was part of our medical system, like what would 633 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: that look like? What would you want that to look like? 634 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 2: So what's holding us back? This is a great question 635 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 2: and it's something I reflect on a lot. I think 636 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 2: at a very high level as a we have never 637 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 2: had psychedelics available to us as a global culture. Another 638 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,280 Speaker 2: way to describe that is historically, when psychedelics have been used, 639 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 2: they've always been in the underground. They've always been in 640 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 2: sort of specific indigenous groups in communities. In ancient Greece, 641 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 2: they had these things called the Eleusinian mysteries that Plato, Aristotle, 642 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 2: and Marcus Aurelius participated in, and they were the mysteries. 643 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 2: You couldn't talk about them. If you talked about what 644 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 2: happened in these experiences, you were either killed or excommunicated, right, 645 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: That's how sacred they were. So there is this deep 646 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: relation between psychedelic use and sort of the underground, the mystery, 647 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: the unknown. And so when we're starting to bring this 648 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 2: above ground for mental health and for a lot of 649 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 2: the current ills that people face in modern society. There's 650 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 2: a big question about how to do that safely because 651 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 2: in the past, it wasn't that everyone had access to 652 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 2: doing five grams of mushrooms or drinking ayahuasca or significantly 653 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,919 Speaker 2: altering their consciousness. And the drugs that we are most 654 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 2: familiar with, alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine are very different than 655 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 2: a psychedelic experience. So I think the first thing to 656 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 2: point to is instead of a stigma, I think it's 657 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:49,399 Speaker 2: more a lack of psychedelic literacy that we are still learning. Oh, 658 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,280 Speaker 2: ketamine is different than MDMA, and MDMA is different than psilocybin. 659 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 2: And these psychedelic class of drugs are actually very different 660 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 2: than cocaine and heroin and you know, addictive substances. Because 661 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 2: one thing I may have emphasized, but I'll reemphasize again 662 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 2: is psychedelics are anti addicted. They actually help to heal addictions. 663 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: They're not like these other illicit drugs cocaine, heroin, methamphetamines, 664 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera very very different drug class. So 665 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 2: I think, on the one hand, it's psychedelic literacy, I 666 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 2: would say, on the other hand, it's just the momentum 667 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 2: that is required to develop policy and regulatory frameworks that 668 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 2: work for people who want to do this legally. We've 669 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 2: seen this in Oregon. Oregon has legalized psilocybin mushrooms. They 670 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 2: now have a regulatory framework in place where you have 671 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 2: to get licensed by the state as a service center 672 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 2: or a facilitator. The people who want to take psiloheybin 673 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 2: mushrooms have to go into these service centers to do 674 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 2: it there. Colorado has a bit more of a flexible 675 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 2: approach now where it's not just psilocybin but also ayahuasca 676 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 2: and San Pedro, and there are various centers that can 677 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 2: be licensed and it's quite open. So I think a 678 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 2: lot of it is just, you know, we have a 679 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 2: phrase in sort of startup world, which is you're building 680 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 2: the airplane as you're bringing it down the runway. It's 681 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 2: a little bit like that with psychedelics. It's this thing 682 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 2: that's never been done before. We've never made them accessible 683 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 2: and available to a wide populace. And that's why I 684 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 2: firmly believe in the utility of microdosing. I do not 685 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 2: believe that everyone is necessarily suited to do a high 686 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,800 Speaker 2: dose of the psychedelic. I think for a lot of people, 687 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 2: it's too chaotic, it's too much, it's too overwhelming, it's 688 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 2: too destabilizing. What I do believe is that the vast 689 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: majority of people, and when I say vast majority, I'm 690 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 2: thinking ninety percent plus of people would benefit from microdosing 691 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 2: with a psychedelic because it's sub intoxicating, it's not changing 692 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 2: your everyday per se. It's shifting things enough, making your 693 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 2: brain slightly neuroplastic, but it's not overwhelming it with new information. 694 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,720 Speaker 2: It's anti addictive, unlike SSRIs. Back to SSRIs, right, fifty 695 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 2: percent of people who start taking SSRIs cannot get off 696 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 2: of them because the withdrawal symptoms are so bad with 697 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 2: microdoses of psychedelics. With psychedelics generally, there's no withdrawal symptoms. 698 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 2: So I feel like microdosing is the way of the future. 699 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 2: And so part of what I'm most excited about is, 700 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 2: you know, we have Third Wave as our educational brand 701 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 2: and company. We have our Psychedelic Coaching Institute which trains practitioners, 702 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 2: and a couple of years ago I also started a 703 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 2: nonprofit called the Microdosing Collective, and we're focusing on how 704 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 2: do we develop policy so people can access microdoses of 705 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 2: psilocybin mushrooms in a safe and legal way. Because for 706 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 2: anyone who's listening to this who lives in New York, 707 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 2: or you live in LA or you live in Austin, 708 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 2: or live you know, in Sydney, mushrooms are everywhere now, right, 709 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 2: Like the DEA is focusing a lot of their time, 710 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 2: energy and effort on fentanyl as they should, and cocaine 711 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 2: and organize crime as they should. So there's this been 712 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 2: this massive growth of interest in mushrooms and all these 713 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,919 Speaker 2: chocolate bars and supplements and everything that's everywhere, and it's 714 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 2: all illegal for the most part except in Colorado, and 715 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 2: it's not regulated, and so people end up getting this 716 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,879 Speaker 2: they don't know what's in it, and so we feel 717 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 2: like with the micro dos and Collective, people are going 718 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 2: to do this anyway. We need to develop consumer protection, 719 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 2: We need to have third party tested supplements, and people 720 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 2: need to be able to access this because as we 721 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 2: were talking about before, prozac is no better than placebo, right, 722 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 2: and a lot of people who get on prozac and 723 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 2: lexapro can't get off, and there's all these nasty side effects. 724 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 2: We need different treatments, We need treatments that actually work, 725 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 2: and I do believe that psychedelics and microdosing in particular, 726 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 2: is a treatment modality that can transform our medical system 727 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 2: where the emphasis is much less on just take a 728 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 2: pill to fix every ill, and the emphasis is much 729 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 2: more on, how can psychedelics and other tools like breathwork 730 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 2: and yoga and meditation, other contemplated practices that facilitate neuroplasticity, 731 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 2: How can those be catalysts to behavioral change, so we 732 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 2: eat healthier, we sleep more, we exercise more, we practice gratitude, 733 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 2: we spend more time outside. At the end of the day, 734 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 2: drugs or drugs, they aren't to fix themselves. But psychedelics 735 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 2: are catalysts. They're neuro catalytic, so we can actually change 736 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 2: our behaviors. And that makes me hopeful. It makes me 737 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 2: hopeful that we'll move from having a sick care system 738 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 2: to a real health care system, and we'll start to 739 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 2: focus not just on taking a pill for every ill, 740 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 2: but actually taking responsibility for our health and well being 741 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 2: and making intentional choices to live in a more connected 742 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 2: and loving way. 743 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: What a beautiful way to finish, What a beautiful way 744 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: to finish. I'm going to ask you one final question. 745 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: I feel like I that was just such a beautiful 746 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: way to put exactly what we're talking about today. This 747 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: is a question I ask every single guest. So you're 748 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,400 Speaker 1: coming on during like our twelve Days of Guest series obviously, 749 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: and it's just like a chance to talk to like 750 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,439 Speaker 1: twelve people who just know this shit are really cool 751 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 1: at experts have a new perspective. What would be your 752 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: one Your biggest piece of advice for people in their 753 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: twenties doesn't have to be related to what we talked 754 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 1: about today, which is one thing you wish that someone 755 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:52,360 Speaker 1: had sat you down and told you. 756 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 2: My biggest piece of advice for someone in their twenties 757 00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 2: is to pursue work, to pursue a career, to pursue 758 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 2: some form of profession that is more about the art 759 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 2: of it rather than the outcome of it. And what 760 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 2: I mean by that is we are so often conditioned 761 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,800 Speaker 2: that we have to be immediately successful. We have to 762 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 2: make a lot of money right away, we have to 763 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 2: have the car, we have to get a nice place, blah, 764 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah. And I think the most valuable 765 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 2: part of our twenties is the capacity to experiment and 766 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 2: the capacity to live in a way that I would 767 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 2: consider to be frugal, so we can have the freedom 768 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 2: to pursue work that is deeply meaningful. I think the 769 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 2: biggest mistake that people in their twenties make is they 770 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 2: and this is particularly for Americans. It's not as prevalent 771 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 2: in Europe and Australia, but they leave undergrad, they get 772 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 2: a job right away, and they essentially stay in that 773 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 2: job for years and years and years and years, and 774 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 2: they end up becoming very miserable. There's no meaning in 775 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,760 Speaker 2: the work that they do, but they are now tied 776 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 2: to it because of what they call the hedonic treadmill. 777 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 2: And I think the greatest opportunity with our twenties is 778 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 2: to pursue work that feels artistic, To pursue work that 779 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 2: feels like you are creating something, that you are responsible 780 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 2: for something, and to trust that if you are contributing 781 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 2: something of value to those around you, that there will 782 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,359 Speaker 2: be reciprocity in that and that you will be taken 783 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,879 Speaker 2: care of. That would be my biggest my biggest piece 784 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:34,360 Speaker 2: of advice. 785 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: I love that as well, that I found that to 786 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: be the case for me. So I have to say 787 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: I one hundred percent agree, and no one else has 788 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,600 Speaker 1: said that yet. So everyone's getting something, everyone's getting something unique. 789 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 2: Paul. 790 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for coming on, 791 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: for giving us just so much to think about, giving 792 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: us so much of the science, so much of the research, 793 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: and your opinion as well, your expert opinion. So I 794 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: really really appreciate the effort that the work that you're doing, 795 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,839 Speaker 1: the creative work that you're doing. Where can people find 796 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: you if they want to learn more? I know you 797 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,320 Speaker 1: have an amazing book, and I was actually reading this 798 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 1: is so strange that I was reading some of the 799 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: reviews and I was like, Wow, this looks like a 800 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,239 Speaker 1: good book. So where can they find more from you? 801 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 2: So Mastering microdos Scene is the book that's on Amazon. 802 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 2: You can get it on Kindle, the third Wave dot co. 803 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 2: The Thirdwave dot Co that's our main educational platform. Our 804 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 2: training program is there, our courses are there. I have 805 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 2: a podcast that I've hosted for nine years in the 806 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 2: Psychedelic Space. You can check that out there. We have 807 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,760 Speaker 2: a newsletter and then I'm on social, mostly on Instagram 808 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 2: and Twitter, but also on LinkedIn. If folks are listening 809 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 2: to this, add me on LinkedIn, Send me a note. 810 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 2: Paul Austin three w is my social handle. Follow me there, 811 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 2: send me a note. I post almost every day, sometimes 812 00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:58,240 Speaker 2: fun memes, usually like sometimes I'll post long scientific threads 813 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 2: on Twitter about cutting edgy search that's been published. So 814 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 2: if you're interested in staying up to date on this 815 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 2: the third Wave, Paul Austin and my book. 816 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: Mastery Microdocing, look at that perfect again. Thank you so 817 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: much to Paul for coming on. As always, guys, if 818 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give us 819 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,320 Speaker 1: a follow. We have so many more guest episodes with 820 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,480 Speaker 1: amazing people coming out, and it's my favorite time of 821 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,360 Speaker 1: the year to hear from just such wonderful experts. Until 822 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: next time, stay safe, stay kind, to be gentle to yourself. 823 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,719 Speaker 1: As always, we will talk very very soon,