1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of I 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick, and stay. I wanted to start with 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: one of those great naval gazers. Are you ready? Let's 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: do it? Okay? So the question is we know how 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: to describe what we see when we look at things. 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: You know, you can look at the room you're in 9 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: right now and write down the features, or you can 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: try to describe a great landscape that you remember from 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: some trip you took. But when somebody asks you to 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: look inside yourself, how do you begin to describe what 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: you see in your own mind? I mean, in a way, 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: you are forced to resort to metaphors. You know, we 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: talked about this a lot. They are like concrete metaphors 16 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: for abstract mental properties. And so maybe you think of 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: your mind if you you try to examine it as 18 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: something like a uh, you know, like a castle or building, 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: a solid landscape you can walk through that has features 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: you could describe, or maybe you think about it like 21 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: a weather pattern that's constantly transient and changing, or maybe 22 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: you can't really think of it in in comparison to 23 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: any physical object at all, in which case, how would 24 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: you ever even be able to describe what you're looking at? 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: And how different of a person would you be if 26 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: you had the tools to see more clearly what's inside 27 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: your own mind? Well, even in this we're using terms 28 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: of about about seeing in visualization and uh. And certainly 29 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us fall back on cinematic 30 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: interpretations of the inner mind states and you know, identity 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: and who we are. But but there's you know, there's 32 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: more going on there. Like I I sometimes when I'm 33 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: more self conscious of what stays going to stay is 34 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: going on in my you know, default mode network, it 35 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: it won't even be visual Like my visual world will 36 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: be just wrapped up in whatever I doing, say driving 37 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: down the road. But it's uh, it's this non visual 38 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: world that is wrapped up in like voices of the 39 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: past and perceived you know, possible future. Would you like 40 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: to think about death and about all the ways in 41 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: which you have failed? Yeah, exactly that sort of thing, 42 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, and that and they may be flashes of 43 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: visualizations in there, but but but often not, at least 44 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: in my case. Uh. And of course in all the 45 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: things concerning the the inner mind. This is going to 46 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: change from individual to individual. Yeah, totally. And so today 47 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: we are embarking on a multi part episode series that 48 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna be doing here on stuff to blow your mind, 49 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: looking at the general topic of psychedelics and most specifically, 50 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: I think, with it with a strong focus on the 51 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: fungal domain there on, on psilocybin, mushrooms and related species 52 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: and compounds. Yeah. Yeah, not only about you know, to 53 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: our point earlier, not only about what they seem to 54 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: change in human perception and cognition, but what they reveal 55 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: about human perception and cognition, how they factor into our past, 56 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: how they factor into our present, and how they may 57 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: well factor into our future. Yeah, that's right now. I 58 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: think maybe one thing that has pushed us in this 59 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: direction is some books we've been reading recently, So maybe 60 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 1: we should mention them at the top. I know we've 61 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: both been reading, uh, Michael Pollen's most recent book, How 62 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: to Change Your Mind, which is all about psychedelics and 63 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: about uh, you know, the concept of spirituality and mental 64 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: life and why this is so elucidated by and associated 65 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: with psychedelic compounds. Right, and it is just an excellent book. 66 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: You know, It's gotten rave reviews for for for excellent reasons. 67 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: It's it's one of these where you can pick it 68 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: up without knowing anything really about psychedelic culture or you know, 69 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: or the you know, the nineteen sixties, or or or 70 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: botany and ethnobotany. You know, you don't really have to 71 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: have a background in any of these things. And Pollen, 72 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: as with his other major works, and it just really 73 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: walks you through. It adds in personal experiences and is 74 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: very much approaching it as an older individual who did 75 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: not have a lot of experiences with psychedelic substances. And 76 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: I think that's a very interesting and appropriate treatment because 77 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: a lot of what I've at least learned recently about 78 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: psychedelics makes it seem like psychedelics maybe of much greater 79 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: use and a much greater interest actually to older, more 80 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: mature people dealing with thoughts of life and death and 81 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: the meaning of life and all that than as say, 82 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: as it is often presented as sort of a party 83 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: drug to you know, experience by teenagers. Right, yeah, I 84 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: think I can't remember it was Paulin said this, or 85 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: who's quoting somebody else? Is saying that psychedelics are are 86 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: wasted on the young. It might have been Carl Young. 87 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: Was it Carl Young that said? Okay, maybe Paulin was 88 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: counting with quoting Young on that, but but yeah, I 89 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: can see there being an argument to that to a 90 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: certain extent. However, that's not to discount the possible benefits 91 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: to younger individuals as well. Um, but we'll get into 92 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: all that as we proceed. Well, I just think it 93 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: seems very plausible to me that it's actually much more 94 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: useful in general for older people to be given tools 95 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: to when they're doing that mental introspection, you know, looking 96 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: through the window into their own mind, to have the 97 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: tools to see more clearly what's inside and to go 98 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: in and move the furniture around right, or to sort 99 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: of knock the barnacles off the hull of the ship, 100 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: because that's that's one way of looking at it is 101 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: just the the younger vessel may have fewer barnacles or 102 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: or or at least for a lot of people, when 103 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: you were younger, perhaps you were fortunate enough, privileged enough 104 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: to not have that many psychic barnacles that need to 105 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: be dislodged, or could conceivably be dislodged, etcetera. Yeah. Uh, though, 106 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: despite everything we're saying right now, I also want to 107 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: make clear that our approach over these following episodes is 108 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: going to be mainly a sort of like descriptive and 109 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: and analytical discussion, not one where we are advocating any 110 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: sort of personal course of action. So we're not going 111 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: to tell you to take psychedelics. We're not going to 112 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: tell you not to take psychedelics. That that's not our goal. Instead, 113 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: we want to talk about what they can do and 114 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: what they mean. Right. But in addition to mentioning Poullen's book, 115 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: another important book that I haven't read but that you 116 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: have and I've read about is a book by Terrence 117 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: McKenna that I know you've been enjoying greatly, which I 118 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: think is out in uh maybe is uh you might say, 119 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: on less solid footing or a little squishy or territory, 120 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: but it's also very interesting. Well. Yeah, one thing about 121 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: about Fit of the Gods. First of all, it's book, 122 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: so a lot of time has passed since it came out. 123 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,239 Speaker 1: And then also it is it is kind of a mixture, 124 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, so McKenna, you know brings his background and ethnobotany, ecology, 125 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: and an understanding of shamanism uh into this uh this book, 126 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: and he's ultimately making a rather grand hypothesis that that 127 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: I'll talk about here in a bit. But yeah, I 128 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: feel like with With the Food of the Gods, one 129 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: has to be a little bit choosy and what what 130 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: you really like grab onto, But but he has a 131 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,559 Speaker 1: lot of very interesting things to say, some wonderful insight 132 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: that still stands up to this day. But it is 133 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: a book I think needs to be appreciated alongside aside 134 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: other sources, especially today. Well yeah, I mean, I think, 135 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: especially in the kind of perspective we tend to present 136 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: on the show, I feel like there's a lot of 137 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: great literature in the realm of psychedelia that falls into 138 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: this category where it's stuff written by people who are 139 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: genuine experts, who you know, really do know what they're 140 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: talking about in the realm of psych psychedelic compounds, the chemistry, 141 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: the botany, the cultural practices and all of that, and 142 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: have great things to say on those subjects, but then 143 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: also tend to be prone, I would say, much more 144 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: often than people in other subject domains to kind of 145 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: get out into highly speculative and even seemingly supernatural territory. Right, 146 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: So you have that tendency, but also just the you know, 147 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: the post nineteen sixties taboo aspect of the subject, where 148 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: for for as we'll discuss, for decades, uh, it was 149 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: not something that was in an accepted area of study. 150 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: It was left to the fringes and the counterculture, and 151 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: so there was a lot of baggage. Are you know 152 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: the both of those those things can sort of hurt 153 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: in individuals work in this area. But another sort of 154 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: compelling inspiration for these episodes is of when I attended 155 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: the recent World Science Festival in New York. There was 156 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: a panel on psychedelics as well. Oh yeah, when eduard O. 157 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: Cone was on. Yes, Cohne was on here. This is 158 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: where I learned about him and his work, plus a 159 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: few other individuals that will discuss as we proceed. So 160 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: obviously we've covered psychedelics and stuff to bliw your mind 161 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: numerous times in the past, discussing LSD, SO cybin as 162 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: well as such counterculture figures as tom As, Timothy Leary, 163 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: and John C. Lily, And we've we've been meaning to 164 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: come back to psychedelics for a deeper die for a while. 165 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: But one of the real reasons that we're reaching back 166 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: into the subject right now is that we are living 167 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: in a very exciting time as far as these substances 168 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: are concerned, because in research terms, in research terms, yeah, 169 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: because basically, these are substances that modern Western medicine explored 170 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: for a brief time in the mid twentie cent tree 171 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: and then and then, and when they were looking at them, um, 172 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: they were encountering many promising results indicating how they might 173 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: be used to treat addiction, address psychological problems, and even 174 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: unlock a better understanding of the human mind. But due 175 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: to political and societal pressures, uh, they were all in 176 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: turn declared illegal substances Schedule one drugs in the United States. 177 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: I think it was psilocybin. I think was made illegal 178 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,719 Speaker 1: in the United States in nineteen sixty eight, and then 179 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: made a Schedule one substance in I think nineteen seventy. Yeah, 180 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: I believe that that was the timeline. And uh, and 181 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: of course this also in in you know, involved LSD 182 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: and various other substances. But basically the result was that 183 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: decades of potential explora floration were lost when modern science 184 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: had scarcely explored, you know, more than what ancient people's 185 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: understood about the substances involved, or you know, to a 186 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: certain extent, understood them less well, uh compared to ancient societies. So, 187 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: I mean we're talking three plus decades during which these 188 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: powerful substances were purely the domains of counterculture and illegal 189 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: activity in the West. You know, no nobody was studying 190 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: so well, there was some study, but it was sort 191 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: of driven underground or not taken very seriously in the 192 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: academic community, right. It was it was considered like risky 193 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: to propose, say a psilocybin study for a while. Yeah, 194 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: like if you're a pharmacologist, psychopharmacologists pursuing uh, psilocybin, it 195 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: could be a bad career move, right yeah. I mean, 196 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: so it was almost treated as if all of these 197 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: substances were dead ends, as if you know, would reach 198 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: the point where it was like, oh, well, this is 199 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: a this is just a poison that you know, for 200 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: that that some people are going to dangerously use for 201 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: recreational purposes, which you know, as as will explore, is 202 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: wrong in two ways, Like it's wrong in the historical 203 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: context when you see how substances like this have been 204 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: used for thousands of years and it's wrong on the 205 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: medical research front. Yeah, I mean one of the funny 206 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: things is, given our view of the very like square 207 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: buttoned up nineteen fifties, the nineteen fifties were relatively a 208 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: time of uh, you know, abundant research and permissiveness exploring 209 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: these topics. So yeah, there were some decades there, some 210 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: some pretty dry decades as far as psychedelic research was concerned. 211 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: But as we emerged from the nineteen nineties, the culture 212 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,359 Speaker 1: began to shift and we began to see new experimentation 213 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 1: into how especially psilocybin could be used to treat specific conditions. 214 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: And you know, this is what we've covered in the 215 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: past on the show and what you've you've heard covered 216 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: a lot elsewhere. You know, the studies here and there 217 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: that reveal new potential and perhaps point the way for 218 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: greater and renewed study and even decriminalization at least for 219 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: clinical uses, you know, in study and studies if nothing else. 220 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: And so as Michael Pollen points out and how to 221 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: Change your Mind, you know, we're living in a true 222 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: renaissance of psychedelic study. And I don't think that's you know, 223 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: an overstatement to say that. I think, especially since around 224 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: the year two thousand six when there was a big 225 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: seminal research paper out about psilocybin that we will talk 226 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: about in detail in a later episode in the series. Right, 227 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: And I'm not and I'm not referring to say, like 228 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: what Colorado efforts in Colorado to decriminalize them for you know, 229 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: perhaps with with recreational usage in mind. Uh, you know, 230 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: I'm talking about like clinical uses. The potential benefits here 231 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: are profound, and if the trends of you know, continue here, 232 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: you know, modern medical science has a has a lot 233 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: to gain from it. You know, it's it's it's frustrating 234 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: to to think about those decades in which you know, 235 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: less was being done with them. But but you know, 236 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: we could have easily remained in kind of a dark 237 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: age and had several more decades in which these substances 238 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: of not being studied. So it's a remarkable time really. 239 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: All Right, Well, I think before we dive into especially 240 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: psilocybin the psychedelics in general, maybe we should do a 241 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: little foundation work because I know one thing that you 242 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: were talking to me about that Terence mckennag gets into 243 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: a good bit and in his work is the idea 244 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: of like what is a drug? What are drug and 245 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: what do people see as drugs? Yeah, yeah, he he 246 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,719 Speaker 1: had a lot of great thoughts on this, on this 247 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: matter that I think I really good sort of disrupting 248 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: the sort of like mental concrete that ends up getting 249 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: embedded in our head regarding the different substances that we 250 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: take into our body. So yeah, let's I think we 251 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: should talk about like what a drug is, because, for instance, 252 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: if you look at just a basics, say Webster's definition, 253 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: a drug is a medicine or other substance which has 254 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body. 255 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: Now how this certainly applies to say cocaine or ibuprofen. 256 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: It also applies to coffee and alcohol. It applies to melotonin, 257 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: herbal supplements, chocolate, tea, wheat, grass shots, camerameal, sugar, licorice, oatmeal, 258 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: you name it. Yeah, we were talking the other day, 259 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: I know about it. Was it was it melotonin supplements. 260 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: You were looking at that? Oh no, I heard uh 261 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: an ad on the radio for them. Yeah that we're 262 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: calling them drug free and all these drugs people take 263 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: that advertise themselves a drug free, which I think is 264 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: just I'm not sure what people mean by that. I 265 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: think they mean maybe like not containing synthetically or lab 266 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: isolated chemicals that you can't pronounce the names of. Yeah, 267 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: it's you know, all natural or something. Well. Yeah, it's 268 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: weird how we we use the term drug to sort 269 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: of refer to things that are either in the domain 270 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: of the illegal is in like the War on drugs, 271 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: or something that is in the domain of medical professionals. Yeah, 272 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: maybe something that requires a prescription is produced by the 273 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical industry. Yeah, but yeah, I don't see any reason 274 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: why these all natural substances are not drugs. They certainly 275 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: are drugs. I mean, I'm doing drugs right now. I've 276 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: got my coffee cup next to me, And the whole 277 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: drug free thing kind of reminds me of like the 278 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: people who say I don't put any chemicals in my body. 279 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: I know what they're talking about, Like they you know, 280 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: they want to eat sort of like all natural whole foods. 281 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: You know, I I'll eat an apple. I'm not going 282 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: to eat an apple bar that was made in a 283 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: factory and has all these chemical ingredients listed that I 284 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: can't renounce. You know, I don't know what that stuff is, 285 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: so I mean I understand that. And of course you know, 286 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: there there are some reasons that you might in truth 287 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: want to avoid certain kinds of industrial food additives. But 288 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: the whole idea that you don't put any chemicals in 289 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: your body is ridiculous. Yeah, And and of course we're 290 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: not arguing that one should put everything into your body 291 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: by any means that you know. And ultimately we all 292 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: have to draw lines in the sand concerning the sort 293 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: of thing and those those lines may you know, not 294 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: make you know, a whole lot of sense if you 295 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: really analyze them. But I think one of the important 296 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: things is to be able to realize where we're drawing 297 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: the line in the sand, and where that line is 298 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: being drawn for us by you know, other other parties 299 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: in society. But anyway, this is one of the the 300 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: the ideas that Terence McKenna discusses and Food of the Gods, 301 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: and I think before we go any any further, I 302 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: should just go ahead and like summarize like what this 303 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: book is about. It's kind of about a lot of things, 304 00:15:54,440 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: but but ultimately he has this central hypothesis that he's pushing. Um. 305 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: You know, he makes a passionate case for not only 306 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: humanities connection with psychedelic substances and the promise of their power, 307 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: but also with the notion that they played a role 308 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: in the emergence of consciousness. Yeah. Well, and sort of 309 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: like in language and and human intellectual abilities, right right, right, 310 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: UM's self reflection and language in particular. And Michael Paulan 311 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: actually mentions it in his book as well. He refers 312 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: to it as quote the epitome of all mico centric speculation. Right. Uh. 313 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: And really, you do encounter some people in this world 314 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: who maybe their enthusiasm for for psilocybin and the effects 315 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: of these psychoactive mushrooms or psychedelic mushrooms. Uh, you get 316 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: the sense that they have had such positive experiences with 317 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: them that it drives them to think about, you know, 318 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: mushrooms as a sort of like center of everything good 319 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: and holy in the world. I mean, in a way 320 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: that might be unfair. Maybe that's over psychologizing their their 321 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: hypotheses and points of view. But like for example, the 322 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: mycologist Pulse s Dame It's or Stammits who comes up 323 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: in Michael Pollan's book, who we've talked about on the 324 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: show before. I think we talked about him in our 325 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: Dune episode because I think he was friends with Frank Herbert. Yes, 326 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: I believe so. But you know, he's got a very 327 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: like mushrooms centric view of the world, where in a 328 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: way sort of mushrooms rule everything, and that the mushrooms 329 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: are like trying to communicate with us through these compounds 330 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: and all that, and mckennic kind of falls in this 331 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: category to he sort of like sees the mushroom regime 332 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: everywhere on Earth. Yeah, I think that's that's undeniable. At 333 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: the same time, I mean, he does make a very mean, 334 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: in a very robust case in this book. Again books, 335 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: so you know, a lot has happened since then. But 336 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: but as Michael Pollan also points out, you know, it's 337 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: ultimately not something that's not really susceptible to proof or disproof, 338 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: and ultimately McKinnon never really fills in the blanks on 339 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: how this would have actually affected biological evolution, right, So 340 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: you probably can't put a lot of stock in his 341 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: hypothesis being correct barring some other evidence that we're not 342 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: aware or yet. But basically you know, his idea is that, like, well, 343 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: humanity owes its mental and cognitive capacities to mushrooms because, 344 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: for example, I know, one of the arguments he adduces 345 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 1: is that because psilocybin, mushrooms caused the experience of synesthesia, 346 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: you know, the cross pollination of senses, so like colors 347 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: have sounds or or music has colors or whatever. You know, uh, 348 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: sounds have a taste or something. That this led to 349 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: the creation of language, because the language is a sort 350 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: of cross pollination between the idea of a sound and 351 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: the idea of a concept. And so this kind of 352 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: like uh, a mental boundary crossing that wouldn't have been 353 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: useful in animals, uh, suddenly is spurred by ingestion of 354 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: psychedelic substances in this case, I think psilocybin, and then 355 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: that leads to humans creating language. Again, I don't know 356 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: what the direct evidence for this would be. It's it's 357 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: like an interesting speculation, but I don't know how you 358 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: would prove it, right, Yeah, I think it. Ultimately you 359 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: would not be able to prove it or really disprove it, 360 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: and which makes it, I guess, kind of a safe 361 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: hypothesis in that regard, but also a hypothesis that will 362 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: probably never evolve beyond the hypothesis level. Yeah, this is 363 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: kind of stuck at the interesting speculation station. Yeah, and 364 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: it is interesting speculation. But anyway, I just want to 365 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: go ahead and describe what that is because I feel 366 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: like with McKinnes, especially depending on what you know about 367 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: him and his work, you might enter into it thinking 368 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: only about same machine elves and the time wave zero 369 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: and some of the the you know, the fringier things 370 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: that he discussed, the thing and you know, his discussion 371 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: two of things that he saw saying on d MT. 372 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: But but on the other hand, you know, he was 373 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: that was an accomplished ethnobotanist, and when he was talking 374 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: about about mushrooms, he certainly knew what he was talking about. 375 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: And uh, and he also just had a lot of 376 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: wonderful insight into just what was culturally going on and 377 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: had been going on at this point in time, especially 378 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: in the United States, concerning the separate of drugs. So 379 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: he points out that drug is a you know, is 380 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: at times an amorphous term that we used to apply 381 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: to certain substances, you know, especially if we want to 382 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: demonize one substance or elevate another exclusively to the domain 383 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: and control of medical professionals. But he writes this quote, 384 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: eating a plant or an animal is a way of 385 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: claiming its power, a way of assimilating its magic to 386 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: one's self. In the minds of preliterate people, the lines 387 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: between drugs, foods, and spices are rarely clearly drawn. The 388 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: shaman who gorges himself on chili peppers to raise inner 389 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: heat is hardly in a less altered state than the 390 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: nitrous oxide enthusiast after a long inhalation. In our perception 391 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: of flavor, in our pursuit of variety, in the sensation 392 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: of eating, we are markedly different from even our primate cousins. 393 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: Somewhere along the line, our new omnivorous eating habits and 394 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: our evolving brain, with its capacity to process sensory data, 395 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: were united in the happy no shin that food can 396 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: be experienced. Gastronomy was born, born to join pharmacology, which 397 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: must surely have preceded it, since maintenance of health through 398 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: regulation of diet is seen among many animals. That offers 399 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: you a little bit of a glimpse that you know. 400 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: McKenna has a fantastic way with words, and I think 401 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: he's also a fantastic public speaker. If you've ever seen 402 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: videos of him giving hists, you know which are you know, 403 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: he's one of those people who I think is able 404 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: to put things in a way that's captivating that maybe 405 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: makes the ideas uh shine as if they have more 406 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: merit than they would have put in a less captivating 407 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: way by another speaker. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know 408 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: he's certainly there's a little bit of shamanistic flavor at 409 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: the beginning of that passage. But I think what he's 410 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: saying here, we can we can all really agree with. 411 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we are what we eat in so many 412 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 1: many ways. You know, we're continually rebuilding our ephemeral bodies 413 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: out of the materials we consume, the chemicals and the nutrients. 414 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: And Kennal also said, quote the strategy of early hominid 415 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: omnivores was to eat everything that seemed food like in 416 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: to vomit whatever was unpalatable. Plants, insects, and small animals 417 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: found edible by this method were then inculcated into their diet. 418 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: I mean, that's certainly I see that in other animals. 419 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: You know, you think about the way even domestic dogs 420 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: who are tend to be quite well fed, you know, 421 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: like it's not like they're lacking for nutrition. But it's 422 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: just like if there's a thing that even might be, 423 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: they're gonna try to eat it. They're gonna give it 424 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: a shot, and if it doesn't work out, they just 425 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: vomit it up. Yeah, I mean, it's this is one 426 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: of those areas that it is I think, really remarkable 427 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: when we stop and try to imagine the process of 428 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: human beings, especially figuring out what they can eat, what 429 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: they can't eat, what what substances they can use just 430 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: to the right amount of and not kill themselves and 431 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: potentially you know, have some sort of benish official effect, 432 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: medicinal culinaria or otherwise. Uh, you know, because ultimately we're 433 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: talking about a long, multigenerational process of human beings figuring 434 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: out the properties of plants in their immediate surrounding and 435 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: then passing that knowledge on. And it's you know, it's 436 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: really it's it's enough to tempt us with the tales 437 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: of ancient astronauts, you know, the idea there was surely 438 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: some other force, some alien or some angel came to 439 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: us and told us what we could eat, but resist 440 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: that impulse. No, you're looking at real scientific labor in 441 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: the ancient world. Yeah, the kind of scientific labor that 442 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: was on the subject of the self and like putting 443 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: your own life on the line. Yeah. Absolutely. Anytime we 444 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: we touch on this topic, I'm always reminded of a 445 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: particular Chinese myth, uh, the mythical emperor shin Nong, the 446 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: divine farmer and ultimately the founder or the mythological founder 447 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: of Chinese herbal medicine as well as agriculture itself. There's 448 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: the link again between medicine and food. Yeah. Absolutely, and Uh. Anyway, 449 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: he's credited as having authored, you know, a couple of 450 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: really important books on you know, the herbal world. And 451 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: according to the myths, she Nong either tasted hundreds of 452 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: herbs or thrash them with a magic whip in order 453 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: to learn their properties. According to one legend, he consumed 454 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: seventy different poisons in a single day. Uh, in order 455 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: to just you know, continue this examination of the natural world. 456 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: I also ran across some variants of the story online 457 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: that mentioned him having a transparent stomach so that he 458 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: that allowed him to see you know how food is 459 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: being broken down in his body. But I didn't see that. 460 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: This is not referenced in either of the main Chinese 461 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: mythology textbooks that I m I frequently refer to, So 462 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, to what extenter's falidity to 463 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: do that, or if it's an accurate translation, etcetera. But still, 464 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: you know, in in mythology, Shinong is essentially classifying all drugs. 465 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: He's humanity's multigenerational process of food testing condensed into a 466 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: single individual. Because you know, of course climates change, Humans 467 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: move into new environments and destabilize their own environment. Ancient 468 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: people's would have figured out roughly what was in their 469 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: immediate vicinity, and and they would have perhaps tried to 470 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: take their important plants with them, but not every plan 471 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: is easily suited for agriculture or new environments, and new 472 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: plants would have continually presented themselves in the course of 473 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: their migration. You've got this image of Shinong here in 474 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: the outline, and he's just sticking something in his mouth 475 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: and grimacing. Yeah, there's some wonderful paintings and drawings of 476 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: Shinnong where you know, he seems to be just doing 477 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: the work, you know, just out there chewing on a 478 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: twig or a leaf here and there and and sensing 479 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: it out, seeing what, well, okay, what is this good for? 480 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: What can this be used for? What can this be 481 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: used as a treatment for? And uh And in the 482 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: writings attributed to him mentioned a host of different substances. 483 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: At one point, cannabis comes up and said it quote 484 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: will produce hallucinations if taken over a long term, it 485 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: makes one communicate with spirits and enlightens one's body. And 486 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: while cannabis is not generally considered a psychedelic, this does 487 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: bring us to contemplation of psychedelics, which are our primp 488 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: i'mory concern here in these episodes, especially the two major 489 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: psychedelics that have played a role in the often stunted 490 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: Western exploration of their potent powers to bring about a 491 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: different state of consciousness. All right, well, maybe we should 492 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: take a quick break and then when we come back 493 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: we can dive more into the question of what are psychedelics. Alright, 494 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: we're back. So we've been talking about psychedelics in this 495 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: first of our series exploring the subject, and I guess 496 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: let's go into the origin of this term. Why why 497 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: do people use the word psychedelic as opposed to other 498 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: terms that might mean similar things are the same thing. Well, 499 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: the term psychedelic derives from the Greek words for soul 500 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: or mind and manifesting, and this name was bestowed in 501 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: nine by British psychiatrist Humphrey Osmond. Yeah. Another frame for 502 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: the etymology is so it's mind manifesting. Of course, you 503 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: know the Greek see here smelled like psyche is a 504 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: term for mind or soul. Uh. The Greek word delun, 505 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: where the psychedelic part comes from, can mean multiple things, 506 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: might mean manifesting. It can also, I think, mean like 507 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: to reveal, to make visible, or make clear. And this 508 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: is interesting because it fits with the early uses of 509 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: psychedelics and psychiatry and neuroscience in the nineteen fifties and 510 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: sixties when they were considered a revolutionary research tool. And 511 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: multiple people, I think have made this comparison, but one 512 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: of them is the psychedelic enthusiast Stanislav Graff, who wrote 513 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: that quote the potential significance of LSD and other psychedelics 514 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: for psychiatry and psychology was comparable to the value of 515 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 1: the microscope for biology or the telescope for astronomy. Uh 516 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: so he's framing it as like a tool of magnification 517 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: and clarification. It's something that allows you to see farther 518 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: or see inside at a greater resolution. Yeah. Now, the 519 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,239 Speaker 1: term psychedelic, you know, ended up taking on a lot 520 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: of additional baggage because this term was was definitely taken 521 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: up by the champion, by timoth the Leary. I know, 522 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: there's Timothy Leary. Of course, we have a couple of 523 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: episodes of stuff to blow your mind on him, um 524 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: that I recorded with Christian several years back, and as 525 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: we discussed there, like Leary, Leary ultimately I think did 526 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: a lot of damage to the perceptions of psychedelic he 527 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: became he was. He was ultimately more of a more 528 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: of a guru type as opposed to you know, you know, 529 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: a pure and dedicated scientist. He began as a you know, 530 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: Harvard academic researchers studying psychedelics. But yeah, he clearly he 531 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: became the dice word I think would be an enthusiast, 532 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: somebody who was clearly at a certain point not studying 533 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: the subject in an objective and dispassionate way, but was 534 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,239 Speaker 1: more just sort of like an advocate for psychedelics, like 535 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: these things are great and everybody should be taken him right, 536 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 1: And then he did willingly embrace the the position of 537 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: being so sort of this leader almost this unofficial um 538 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,959 Speaker 1: and you know guru figure that was the forefront of 539 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: this counterculture movement, both in in the the ups and 540 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: downs of that counterculture as well. Yeah, and so I 541 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: think this is your correct one reason why the term 542 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: psychedelic has acquired some perhaps negative baggage. I think sometimes 543 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: people think of that word more having to do with 544 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: like recreational and sort of music associated or party associated 545 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: uses of of these compounds that tend to cause you know, 546 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: hallucinations or highly altered states of consciousness. And I I 547 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: don't I don't think that's quite fair. I mean, I 548 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: think psychedelic is a good term, and I want to 549 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: keep using it throughout these episodes. Yeah, and I think 550 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: there's a reason that people have stuck with it despite 551 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: other terms having been presented. For instance, in Theogen's is 552 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: one that comes up the most and has been uh 553 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: taken out then championed by you know in some respects, 554 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: But more and more you do see people coming back 555 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: to U two psychedelics, and that's what we're going to 556 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: use in these episodes, and of course in Theogen's I 557 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: think one reason that's difficult is because in the agens 558 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: means like sort of like you know, God revealing, like 559 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: it conjures up, it brings up the gods or brings 560 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: up the divine right. It didn't bring up the nineteen 561 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: sixties as much. To its credit, like that's I think 562 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: the benefit of it. But then when he actually, uh, 563 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, take it apart and look at what it means, 564 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: it is perhaps leaning more heavily into the mystic Yeah, 565 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: which is fine because I mean, to be fair, the 566 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: mystical experience is very important part of the sort of 567 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: research history of what the what these what affects these 568 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: drugs produced, and the most common reports about the effects 569 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: that they have on people's thinking and on their lives. 570 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: They very often do encourage types of mystical thinking. They 571 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: very often do lead to people reporting mystical experiences or 572 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: experiences that people you know, relate to God or God's 573 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: or some kind of divine spirit. But at the same time, 574 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: not everybody has those experiences on them, and not everybody 575 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: who has those kinds of experiences on them. Would it 576 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: tribute it to any kind of real spiritual force, though 577 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: a lot would so I think in the Agen's does 578 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: have the negative property of maybe assuming a little too 579 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: much of a thorough association with the spiritual um and so. So. Yeah, 580 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: I like the idea of psychedelics. It is. It is 581 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: mind revealing. Now, they're also sometimes called hallucinogens, you know, 582 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: just sort of roughly, which of course is is confusing 583 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: as well for starters. Something can be an hallucinogen and 584 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: not be a psychedelic compound, for sure, it isn't. Cannabis 585 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: sometimes classified as a hallucinogen. I think, I think I've 586 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: seen it classified as such. Yeah. One part of this, 587 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: of course, is you don't have to take a psychedelic 588 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: to have an audible or visual hallucination. There are many 589 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: other causes and conditions that can be involved, and you 590 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: can make a strong case that our default perception of 591 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: reality is nothing short of an hallucination. Likewise, psychedelics don't 592 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: always cause hallucinations. In fact, full blown hallucinations are actually uncommon, 593 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: and they're probably not going to be like the hallucinations 594 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: you've seen in a psychedelic film, right, I mean, I 595 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: think often the hallucinations that are depicted in psychedelic movies 596 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: are given far too um, far too concrete of a 597 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: character that makes sense, Like so you see a glass 598 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: dragon flying out of the Andromeda galaxy to eat your pain, 599 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: and you know, rebirth you as a fire child or something, 600 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: where Whereas that kind of thing you might see, especially 601 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: on some higher doses of some of these psychedelics, but 602 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: more often, you know, people especially on lower doses, will 603 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: have some states have altered perception, but they're not necessarily 604 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: going to see like whole concrete visions of agents and 605 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: objects coming towards them that aren't there. Yeah, I mean, 606 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: we have to cut films a little bit of slack, 607 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: I think, because ultimately it's a largely visual medium. That's 608 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: what they're telling their stories with, so of course they're 609 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: going to gravitate towards hallucinations and visualizations of psychedelic experience, 610 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: some of which are just laughable. Uh. And and occasionally 611 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: you'll have a film that that really does a good 612 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: job of capturing something that feels like an authentic psychedelic experience, 613 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: but I don't know, I find those to be few 614 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: and far between. Yeah. Oh, and I should also point 615 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: out that if you, when they're you classify psychedelic as 616 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 1: an hallucinogen, you're also kind of limiting it, you know, 617 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: because ultimately these substances do a number of different things 618 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: outside of something that you could even loosely describe as 619 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: an hallucination. Yeah. I mean again, I think psychedelic is 620 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: a good term. They are more generally mind revealing or 621 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: mind manifesting. Yeah. By downplaying the role of hallucinations, we 622 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: don't want to suggest that these drugs can't cause hallucinations. 623 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: They very often do, especially at higher doses, right, Yeah, absolutely, 624 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: especially when you're also things are a little different as well. 625 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: Discuss when you get into clinical situations where you know, 626 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: just the way that a particular substances is uh it 627 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: administered can make it more potent. How however, you know, 628 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: on the subject of visualization. UM. At that World Science 629 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: Festival panel that I attended, one of the speakers was 630 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: it was a British professor of cognitive and computational neuroscience 631 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: at the University of Sussex uh And L Seth, and 632 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: he pointed to the Google Deep Dream generator as actually 633 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: being a decent approximation of the sort of visuals that 634 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: can go on during a psychedelic experience. Um, I think 635 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: everybody's probably seen images or video that you utilize this 636 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: deep dream generator, but it's the kind of thing where 637 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: it's like there's a face of a dog and everything exactly. Yeah, 638 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 1: so if you've never seen it. Basically, what it was 639 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: was it was an algorithm that would take a photo 640 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: that you supplied, you know, you'd upload a photo, and 641 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: then you run it through the system. You could i 642 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 1: think determine like to what degree it would get, you know, 643 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: to how crazy it would get basically, and it would 644 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: start to reveal fractal patterns emerging from the lines and 645 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: boundaries in the m A and very often, yeah, like 646 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: faces and other recognizable forms that would show up in 647 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: images from around the internet would start showing up in 648 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: the image. You might see forms of plants, very often, 649 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,439 Speaker 1: forms of animal faces, dog faces, and the couch cushions. Yeah. Yeah. 650 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: And this this absolutely matches up with with my experiences 651 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: where it's not like you're going, oh my goodness, there 652 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: are dogs everywhere, but it would be more like there's 653 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: a there's a fractal pattern to my immediate environment that 654 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: I that is not there usually, or it looks like 655 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: the grass is breathing, or you know, perhaps you're looking 656 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: at something like say a work of art, or in 657 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: my experience of hanging African mask and it seems to 658 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: be alive and a certain to a certain extent, not 659 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: in a way where you're like, oh my god, the 660 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: mask is coming alive, you know, or anything like that. 661 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: It's uh, it's uh, you know, I guess it's rather 662 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: hard to put into words, but there is a you know, 663 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: a sense of fractal life to everyday objects that is 664 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: that is not the are otherwise. Yeah, And I think 665 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: another way that the deep dream is appropriately compared to 666 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: psychedelics is that the deep dream generator, I think basically 667 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: worked by a recurrent pattern of extrapolation and amplification. So, 668 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: you know, it sees something that's zero point five percent 669 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: like a dog face, and it recognizes that because it's 670 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: tried to track a lot of dog faces across the Internet, 671 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: and it says, let's lean into that, and then it 672 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: makes it two percent like a dog face, then ten 673 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: percent like a price, and finds more dog faces in 674 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: what it's been extrapolating from the original image. So I 675 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: can't help but notice that, you know, one tendency of 676 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 1: the hallucinatory experience or of the psychedelic experience, seems to 677 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: be extrapolating and amplifying perceived significant patterns from random noise. 678 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: So let's take another step back and and talk just 679 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: in general about psychedelics and what particular substances we're talking about. Yeah, 680 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: I guess we we need to briefly address the chemistry 681 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: part of this, right, Yeah, So we're largely talking about 682 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: the the indules psychedelics. There's lysergic acid diathylamide l s D. 683 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 1: There's psilocybin, which occurs you know, naturally in um several 684 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: different varieties of mushrooms what I think two hundred different varieties. 685 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: Then there's also in in a di methyl trip tomine 686 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: which is d MT. There's uh the gain and they're 687 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: the beta carbo lines. The ones that we're going to 688 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: be discussing the most here are psilocybin, which again occurs 689 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: naturally in mushrooms. And then of course LSD, which is 690 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: is a synthetic psychedelic that was first generated by Albert 691 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: Hoffman in eight from lysergic acid, a chemical from the 692 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: for the fungus or god, which we've discussed on the 693 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,959 Speaker 1: show before. H and Hoffman actually played an important role 694 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: in isolating the compounds from the psilocybies mushrooms as well. Yes, yeah, 695 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: so he sort of figures in both of the main 696 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: streams here. But one thing I want to make clear 697 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: that I didn't understand for a long time is that 698 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: there there is not just one species of mushroom that 699 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: is the psilocybin mushroom and it's that species. There is 700 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,240 Speaker 1: this whole class of the philocopies or the psilocybin mushrooms 701 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: that is a you know, a multi species, huge range 702 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: of hundreds of varieties of mushrooms that have these related effects. 703 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: I think mainly based on the compounds silicon and psilocybin, 704 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: which breaks down into silicin in the body. D MT, 705 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: by the way, is a naturally occurring compound as well. 706 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: It's found in many different plants and animals and is 707 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: found up inside the human brain as well. But it 708 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: was also first synthesized in ninety one by chemist Richard 709 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: Hillmuth Frederick Matzk there. But there are plenty of other 710 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: additional psychedelics that that occur and that pop up in 711 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,720 Speaker 1: the research and all there that occur naturally in the world. 712 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: There the ib A gain substances that are found in 713 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: two related African and South American tree genera UM mostly 714 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: known as an aphrodisiac in Africa, but it also has 715 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: psychedelic properties that higher doses. Uh, there's a There's the 716 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 1: hallucinogenic mescaline, which is found in the spineless cactus pot. 717 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 1: It's a fin ethylamine, as is m d m A, 718 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: as is methamphetamine, and as are a host of other drugs, 719 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: including just like basic decongestions. Uh, yeah, you mentioned m 720 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: d m A. Yeah, and Christian did a whole couple 721 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: of episodes I think MM years ago. Yeah, and we 722 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: we're not really focusing on m D m A here, 723 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: but you know, it is also a powerful Schedule one 724 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: substance with some promising possibilities for therapeutic therapeutic use and 725 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: also some promising history of therapeutic use. But it kind 726 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: of fell victim to the same anti drug efforts and 727 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: the sort of moral panic that was associated with with 728 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: the hallucinogens as well. But according to Stephen Ross, m D. 729 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 1: Of the n y U Pilocybin cancer anxiety study. Speaking 730 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: at the two thousand nineteen World Science Festival, he said 731 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: that we're you know, there's a very strong chance we're 732 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: going to see M d M A rescheduled in the 733 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: next couple of years due to uh, you know, the 734 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: promising ref church that's going on using yet you know, 735 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: particularly dealing I believe with PTSD, and you're talking there 736 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: about it being reclassified as a less dangerous and less 737 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,760 Speaker 1: legally prohibited drug in the United States, because a Schedule 738 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: one in the US means like there's nothing, there's nothing 739 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: you can do with it, there's not even like a 740 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: medical use for it. Uh and uh. I think in 741 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: in some times in the past and to some degree 742 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: still in the present, the schedule one classification I think 743 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: is treated more as a sort of punitive category than 744 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: I say, truly you know, research or science based category. Right. 745 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: For instance, So at cannabis schedule one, in d m 746 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: A schedule one, psilocybin schedule one, LSD schedule one, cocaine 747 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 1: schedule two, there you go. Interesting, Well, since we're gonna 748 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: be focusing more on psilocybin mushrooms than on other psychedelics, 749 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: I also thought it might be useful to just quickly 750 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: mention a few of its more straightforward medically recognized effects 751 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: and medical significance before we get on into the uh 752 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: the more phenomenological common reports. So I mentioned this minute ago, 753 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: I think, but the primary compounds responsible for the psychedelic 754 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 1: effects of psilocybin mushrooms are the compound psilocybin and silisin, 755 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: which ultimately amount to sort of the same things. Since 756 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: psilocybin breaks down into silicon once inside the body, silicon 757 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: is a more potent compound, but it occurs in smaller 758 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: original quantities within the mushroom flesh. UH, and compared to 759 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: almost all other known drugs, psilocybin has an exceptionally low 760 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: potential for abuse and exceptionally few known risks. According to 761 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: the University of Maryland Center for Substance Abuse Research quote, 762 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: there are no reports that psilocybin mushrooms are psychologically or 763 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: physically addictive, and use does not lead to dependence. For 764 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: several days following the use of mushrooms, users may experience 765 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,760 Speaker 1: a period of psychological withdrawal and have difficulty discerning reality. 766 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: So that's like a potential drawback. But right the way 767 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: I've seen it described is that there's there's virtually no 768 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: physical uh ramifications, you know, like in terms of like 769 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,280 Speaker 1: just physiological damage to the body as you would encounter 770 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: with various other substances. That's that's not the risk. There 771 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: is like a small risk uh psychologically, especially for namely 772 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: for individuals with a family history of say psychosis or 773 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: um schizophrenia. Right. So, no psychoactive drug is completely without risks. 774 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: And we're not encouraging people to take psilocybin, mushrooms or 775 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: any other drug. If you decide to take a psychedelic 776 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: any psychedelic compound you or any compound at all, really 777 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: you should thoroughly research it's its effects for yourself, any 778 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: possible risk factors from trustworthy and science based sources. Right. 779 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: And I think this is an area where, like people 780 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: talking about recreational drug use, I think that can be 781 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: it can ultimately be kind of damaging because it implies 782 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: that powerful substances like this can be purely recreational. It's 783 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: kind of like are you flying this F fourteen fighter 784 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: jet recreationally or you know, or you taking it seriously? 785 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: Like you know, it's a powerful thing. It's a powerful tool. Uh, 786 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: you should if you're going to choose to engage with it, 787 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: do so with with forethought exactly. So, yeah, like you 788 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: were just sort of alluding to. While pseulocybin has an 789 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 1: exceptionally low level of recognized risk when compared with other drugs, 790 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: it still is possible to experience negative psychological consequences. For example, 791 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: if you have pre existing risk factors like high anxiety 792 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: or past episodes of derealization, then, of course also we 793 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: should just mention the sort of practically associated risks, as 794 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: the mycologist Paul Stamitz makes clear, psychedelic species of philocopies. 795 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,839 Speaker 1: You know, the psilocybin mushrooms look extremely similar to many 796 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: other species of poisonous little brown mushrooms that can lead 797 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,879 Speaker 1: to an agonizing death if ingested. So people who plan 798 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: to take psilocybin mushrooms should get them from an experienced, 799 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: knowledgeable source who knows exactly how to identify them reliably. 800 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: You don't want somebody who doesn't know what they're doing 801 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: foraging psilocybin mushrooms. For of course, when you have substances 802 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: outlawed um, that's kind of the thing a lot of 803 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: people end up falling back on. So I mean, that's 804 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: one of the other benefits of I think personally, of 805 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: decriminalizing this sort of thing, yeah, I would agree. Now. Also, 806 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,280 Speaker 1: according to the Maryland Center, there are plenty of possible 807 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: physiological effects of ingestion, depending on tons of different factors 808 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: like the exact species of mushroom you're dealing with and 809 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: the preparation method, which you know can affect these, but 810 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 1: they include, just to read through a few of these, nausea, vomiting, 811 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: abdominal cramps and diarrhea, muscle relaxation, weakness and twitches, drowsiness, dizziness, 812 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: lack of coordination, lightheadedness, pupil dilation, dry mouth, facial flushing. 813 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: You might have increased heart rate or blood pressure, body temperature, sweating, chills, shivering, 814 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: numbness of the tongue, lips, or mouth, and then feelings 815 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: of physical heaviness or immobility, um or feelings of lightness 816 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: or floating uh. And then of course that you get 817 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: to the psychological consequences. These aren't all the possibilities, but 818 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: just to mention a few, you of course have the 819 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:03,800 Speaker 1: possibility of hallucination and heightened sensory perceptions where maybe colors 820 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,879 Speaker 1: seem more vivid or sounds are more cute flavors, more 821 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: explosive smells are stranger. We mentioned earlier synesthesia, the cross 822 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,839 Speaker 1: sensory contamination colors make sounds, sounds have colors, that kind 823 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: of thing. The lack of ability to focus is commonly 824 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: cited alterations and perception of space and time. You might 825 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: kind of like time seems dilated or sped up. Anxiety 826 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 1: and restlessness, or a sense of detachment from the self 827 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: or from the surroundings, including the concept known as ego loss, 828 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: which we'll get into in more detail later. But beyond 829 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,800 Speaker 1: all those sort of like top line descriptions of psychological consequences, 830 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: I think maybe we should take a break, and when 831 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: we come back we can discuss in a little more detail, 832 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: like the kinds of common reports that people actually make 833 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: about their experiences with psychedelics and and the more complex 834 00:45:54,160 --> 00:46:00,359 Speaker 1: phenomenological responses to them. Thank thank you. All Right, we're back. 835 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: We're talking about psychedelics and some of the we're about 836 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: to get into some of the common reports about the 837 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: the the psychological effects of taking them. Yeah. Now, I 838 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: we are talking sort of about psychedelics in general, but 839 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: with a special emphasis on psilocybin mushrooms, or the philosopies, right, 840 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and we should probably mentioned, you know, 841 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: one of the reasons we focused on on psilocybin but 842 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 1: also l s D to a certain extent, is that 843 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: when you look at the studies that we're done with 844 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: these early on, like you know, in the the fifties 845 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: and in early sixties, when they were when they were 846 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, widespread studies being they were looking into psychedelics, 847 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: they were mostly using LSD because that was what was 848 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 1: readily available at the time. Today's studies are going to 849 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: be almost exclusively using psilocybin for a couple of different 850 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 1: reasons that will explore later. Yeah. I think we're going 851 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 1: to especially get into those more recent studies maybe in 852 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: our third episode. So yeah, so what what are these 853 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: common reports the phenomenological reports. One thing that I think 854 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 1: we should emphasize upfront is the thing that a lot 855 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: of people maybe who would take these for the first time, 856 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: don't quite realize is the extreme importance of what's known 857 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 1: in the psychedelic literature is set and setting. So the 858 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: psychedelic drug is a fairly reliable gateway to an altered 859 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: state of consciousness, possibly containing hallucinations. Uh, and feelings that 860 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: parallel the classical forms of mystical experience. You know, we'll 861 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: we'll get into more on the mystical experience in a 862 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: minute here. But the experience produced by the compound is 863 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: not standardized by the psychopharmacology itself. It appears to be 864 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: extremely sensitive to external factors like the personality, the emotions, 865 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 1: the thoughts and expectations of the person ingesting the compound. Uh. 866 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: You know, this is referred to as the set or 867 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,800 Speaker 1: the mindset, and the physical environment and stimuli encountered while 868 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: on the trip, which is the setting. Uh. And in 869 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: my experience, a hallmark of the majority of especially negative 870 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,840 Speaker 1: experiences people report with psychedelics come from inattention to set 871 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: and setting, right. Yeah, Like I remember speaking to somebody 872 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: and they said that, like they had a terrible experience 873 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,879 Speaker 1: on mushrooms or E. L S D and uh. And 874 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:14,840 Speaker 1: but but the the setting that they had was like 875 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: really trying to drive away from a firework show and 876 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: having their car overheat out side of the road. That's 877 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,920 Speaker 1: a terrible, terrible set and setting. Yeah. I mean this 878 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 1: might seem kind of obvious, but like these are the 879 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: kind of things that if someone is going to experiment 880 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 1: with them, and in addition to all the you know, 881 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,399 Speaker 1: research you should do beforehand, making sure that you feel 882 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: safe and you know what you're doing and all that, 883 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,800 Speaker 1: it's also important to pay attention to set and setting, 884 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,400 Speaker 1: to approach it with the right mindset, maybe to approach 885 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: it in the company of someone who can be a 886 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,839 Speaker 1: positive guide for you, and also to approach it within 887 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: a setting that feels positive and comfortable, such as a 888 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: place where you feel at ease and at home, maybe 889 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:57,240 Speaker 1: with access to nature and natural settings. People often report 890 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,320 Speaker 1: wanting to be outside, wanting to be among plants and things. 891 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: And it's interesting how all of these these things are 892 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,719 Speaker 1: matching up with some of the uh what really most 893 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: of the the traditional ritualistic and shamanistic practices concerning these 894 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 1: substances that were around for thousands and thousands of years 895 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,759 Speaker 1: before you know, anybody thought about going to woodstock or 896 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: burning man right, I mean, very often these compounds were 897 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: ingested as part of a ritual and a huge part 898 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: of what rituals are. I mean, even outside the consumption 899 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,480 Speaker 1: of psychedelics are set and setting manipulations. What is it 900 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:35,240 Speaker 1: when you go into a Gothic cathedral and there is music, 901 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,320 Speaker 1: you know, their sacred sounding music echoing throughout the stone 902 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,240 Speaker 1: architecture in the room is dim and lit by candles. 903 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 1: And someone passes you by with a sensor. You know 904 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,759 Speaker 1: that incense smoke is coming out of and and it 905 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 1: alters your senses with the smells and the sites and 906 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,440 Speaker 1: the sounds. This is creating a sort of a set 907 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 1: and setting for you to have a slight mystical experience 908 00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,319 Speaker 1: even though you're not ingesting psychoactive compounds. No. Well, but 909 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,799 Speaker 1: then again, when I go to church, they always have 910 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,680 Speaker 1: coffee out front, sugar and cookies for the kids. There's tea, 911 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,440 Speaker 1: and if you're going to church in the Middle Ages, 912 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,760 Speaker 1: you might be getting some of that ergic rye always 913 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: always a potential risk. But yeah, I mean that's just 914 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: one example. I mean a huge part of what people 915 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,719 Speaker 1: do in religious rituals. I think his manipulation of set 916 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,680 Speaker 1: and setting to create a sort of sacred or altered 917 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: mind state in which you have a certain kind of experience. 918 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 1: One thing I wanted to talk about is something that 919 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,600 Speaker 1: Michael Paullen mentions and how to change your mind. At 920 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: one point, he's describing his own personal experiments with psilocybin. 921 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,360 Speaker 1: At one point, I know, he talks about how he 922 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 1: he took someone he was much younger, and he had 923 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,400 Speaker 1: kind of a bad time because he was out away 924 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 1: from home. I think he was out in a park 925 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 1: in New York City and he was getting worried about 926 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 1: if people could tell when they were looking at it. 927 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: Sounds like he was not in a comfortable environment. Yeah, well, 928 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,040 Speaker 1: I think he were he related to and one was 929 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,000 Speaker 1: further out of the city and one was in the park. 930 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 1: And the one in the park was a little more 931 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,080 Speaker 1: anxious because it was like, oh, can they tell that 932 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 1: I'm in drugs? Thing? But he also describes one that 933 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: he did much later as an adult, when he was 934 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 1: preparing to write the book, And so he describes the 935 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 1: altered sensory and conceptual experiences that he has on the drug. 936 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,960 Speaker 1: This is interesting not as hallucinations, but as quote projections, 937 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 1: and so he says, you know, projections are determined largely 938 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,960 Speaker 1: by his physical surroundings and by his own present thoughts 939 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,759 Speaker 1: and preoccupations. He defines a projection as quote when we 940 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 1: mix our emotions with certain objects that then reflect those 941 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,920 Speaker 1: feelings back to us so that they appear to glisten 942 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,759 Speaker 1: with meaning. So again, you know, he's not seeing the 943 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,440 Speaker 1: dragon flying out of the Andromeda galaxy. Uh. Instead he 944 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 1: sees two different trees standing in a meadow when he 945 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,480 Speaker 1: feels deep insights about his parents looking at these two trees. 946 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,280 Speaker 1: And this experience is largely determined not just by the drug, 947 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,640 Speaker 1: but by the environment that he's in and what's his preoccupations, 948 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,239 Speaker 1: what's on his mind. But certainly set and setting our 949 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,840 Speaker 1: are essential. Really and in all the literature concerning psychedelic experience, 950 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:06,319 Speaker 1: be it you know, ancient rituals, counterculture usage, usages of 951 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:11,200 Speaker 1: the substances, or the various clinical trials that are ongoing. Now. Yeah, 952 00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,719 Speaker 1: so let's go to the next big common report that's 953 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,720 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. This one we should call in iff ability. 954 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,759 Speaker 1: This extremely common report is that the psychedelic experiences one 955 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,920 Speaker 1: either difficult or impossible to put into words, or two, 956 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,319 Speaker 1: if it is put into words, the words do not 957 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,560 Speaker 1: accurately capture the nature of the experience. And and this 958 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,840 Speaker 1: is interesting in the way that it's both similar and 959 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,440 Speaker 1: dissimilar to everyday experience. Is totally mundane ones you know 960 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 1: we're all familiar with You were hanging out with some 961 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,839 Speaker 1: friends and something happened, and you know you have an 962 00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: experience that has features that are hard to put into words, 963 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,440 Speaker 1: like anytime you're telling a personal story and you end 964 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: with the conclusion, well, I guess you had to be there. 965 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,400 Speaker 1: You're saying, well, you're saying there was something interesting or 966 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: funny or notable about the experience the you don't know 967 00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:04,120 Speaker 1: how to recreate with words, and that maybe your shortcoming. 968 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 1: Maybe you're not very good with words and you can't 969 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 1: do it, or maybe there's something that nobody could adequately 970 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,200 Speaker 1: put into words. Or I always am suspicious. Maybe they're 971 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: just too lazy to tell me that you not care 972 00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: enough about conveying this experience to maybe you can't just 973 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,680 Speaker 1: take take a few steps back, put it, put it 974 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:22,719 Speaker 1: in some better words, and then have another go at it. 975 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,799 Speaker 1: Don't play so holy. I know you've said it. I 976 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,280 Speaker 1: know you've said it at some point. I don't know, Um, 977 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,080 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't remember having said it, but I 978 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: may have well said it. You are very good with words. Well, 979 00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,360 Speaker 1: I think there is a tendency with a background in writing, 980 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,400 Speaker 1: is that you tend to think that writing can do anything, 981 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:44,600 Speaker 1: that anything can be captured in words. But then again, 982 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,839 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to to then turn that on its 983 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 1: head and think about what our words to do. Our 984 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 1: words don't always sometimes they do capture an experience, and 985 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,360 Speaker 1: in capturing it, they cage it, and they cage it 986 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,680 Speaker 1: within the limitations of those words, you know. So we're 987 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,520 Speaker 1: so used to doing this with though a lot of 988 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,319 Speaker 1: different experiences, we don't even think about how we're we're 989 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,840 Speaker 1: taking something that was observed. We're taking this this experience 990 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,080 Speaker 1: of reality that is rather different than you know from 991 00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: the paragraph that you create out of it. But we 992 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 1: think of that paragraph isn't accurate depiction of reality? Yeah, 993 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:19,759 Speaker 1: I mean, something of course is always lost in the 994 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,600 Speaker 1: translation to words. And everybody has had this experience every 995 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: now and then of not being able to explain things. 996 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:29,920 Speaker 1: But it is notable how often, how almost always, ineffability 997 00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,800 Speaker 1: emerges as one of the most salient features of psychedelic experience. 998 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,520 Speaker 1: You pretty much always just had to be there, uh, 999 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, you had to be me basically, is the 1000 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,879 Speaker 1: only way you can understand what the experience was. And often, 1001 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,080 Speaker 1: if you at least in my experience, if you read 1002 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,600 Speaker 1: a description of somebody else's experience with LSD or psilocybin, 1003 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:53,200 Speaker 1: that it was incredibly profound and meaningful and notable to them. 1004 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,680 Speaker 1: You might think, Okay, I don't get what's so profound 1005 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,080 Speaker 1: about this. Something important is lost in the translation of 1006 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,080 Speaker 1: the experience in to a verbal narrative. Well, I mean 1007 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of like dreams, right, I mean, you know, 1008 00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 1: there's the old thing that you know, there are the 1009 00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 1: old observation that we we only find our own dreams 1010 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,560 Speaker 1: interesting and we're not interested in or we don't understand 1011 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,680 Speaker 1: other people's dreams. More certainly, the sort of you had 1012 00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,799 Speaker 1: to be there that applies to dreams all the time. 1013 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm I certainly, I'm always having dreams that when you're 1014 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,880 Speaker 1: having them, they're profound or scary or frightening or beautiful 1015 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,319 Speaker 1: or weird, And then when you try and describe them 1016 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,120 Speaker 1: later outside of the trappings of dream, you realize that 1017 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 1: sounds kind of hokey. Yeah, there's a quality that you 1018 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,960 Speaker 1: can't really identify in words. And here here's an interesting distinction. 1019 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:37,920 Speaker 1: Maybe we can come back to this as the episodes 1020 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: go on. But I wonder, is this quality of ineffability 1021 00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,239 Speaker 1: that's so common to psychedelic experience because we don't have 1022 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,799 Speaker 1: the vocabulary yet, or because there is a quality of 1023 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: the experience that's inherently indescribable in any words. I mean, 1024 00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: I've heard some psychedelic enthusiasts frame it in the first way. 1025 00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,600 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, there's someone who's quoted in Hollin's book. 1026 00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: I think it might have been Bob Jesse, but I 1027 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,799 Speaker 1: don't want to it could have been somebody else. But anyway, Uh, 1028 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,560 Speaker 1: he's describing psychedelic experiences and saying, you know, it's like 1029 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,319 Speaker 1: you took a paleolithic person and then transported them through 1030 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,160 Speaker 1: time to modern day Manhattan and sat them down, let 1031 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,440 Speaker 1: them look around, and and then sent them back and 1032 00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,960 Speaker 1: had them try to explain their experience. They wouldn't have 1033 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,399 Speaker 1: the words to describe what they were looking at cell 1034 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,000 Speaker 1: phones and skyscrapers and all that. So that's one way 1035 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,360 Speaker 1: of looking at why psychedelic experiences are hard to describe. 1036 00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:30,160 Speaker 1: It's like we we don't have the words to put 1037 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,160 Speaker 1: it into yet. But there's another way of looking at 1038 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:34,960 Speaker 1: it says, no, it's not that we lack the words. 1039 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,360 Speaker 1: It's just that it can't be put into words. There's 1040 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:44,080 Speaker 1: a there's a permanently irresolvably unexplainable quality to the experience. Well, 1041 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,879 Speaker 1: it's kind of in a way maybe too. It's we're 1042 00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,040 Speaker 1: removed of some of the shackles of of language and 1043 00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,319 Speaker 1: our linguistic thinking for a little bit. You know. It's 1044 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:53,879 Speaker 1: kind of like you go on a trip and your 1045 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,319 Speaker 1: cell phone battery is dead. You don't bring back any 1046 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: pictures because your cell phone wasn't operational during that time. 1047 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,000 Speaker 1: You know. That's interesting, Yeah, Paul. And by the way, 1048 00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,600 Speaker 1: there was an excellent interview with him from Terry Gross 1049 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,839 Speaker 1: on Fresh Air, and in that he talks about this, uh, 1050 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 1: the the ineffable aspect of the experience, and he mentions 1051 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,879 Speaker 1: that William James said that the mystical experience is ineffable, 1052 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 1: yet we try very hard to effit, of which I 1053 00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,720 Speaker 1: thought was was clever. Yeah, that is good. William James 1054 00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:23,000 Speaker 1: is going to come up a lot in the in 1055 00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,600 Speaker 1: the next few minutes. But you know, I think back, 1056 00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:27,720 Speaker 1: you know, just on the power of language and and 1057 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:29,960 Speaker 1: and also you have to I always have to realize that, 1058 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,920 Speaker 1: you know, there are plenty of very talented writers and 1059 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,440 Speaker 1: speakers who have discussed this, people that that surely have 1060 00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,760 Speaker 1: the tools to communicate what they experienced. But then again, 1061 00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,960 Speaker 1: like Terence McKenna, I think is an example of someone 1062 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,640 Speaker 1: who you know, he only speaks of the ineffable rarely 1063 00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:46,880 Speaker 1: and is otherwise more than up to the task of 1064 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,480 Speaker 1: discussing and describing what he experienced on psychedelics or you know, 1065 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,080 Speaker 1: interpreting and reinterpreting what he experienced. But even he at 1066 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,000 Speaker 1: times kind of falls back on the hey, look, you 1067 00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,959 Speaker 1: had to be there explanation, particularly when he was talking 1068 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,240 Speaker 1: about experiencing this other like the idea of like experiencing 1069 00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,800 Speaker 1: an other entity while on d MT he was, he 1070 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of sort of leaves it with with like, hey, 1071 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,959 Speaker 1: you try it as well, you tell me what it is. Well, 1072 00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,080 Speaker 1: that experience of the other, I think is the next 1073 00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:16,880 Speaker 1: thing I want to get into. Oh yeah, you're right. 1074 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,000 Speaker 1: This does flow directly into the next area where you're 1075 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,920 Speaker 1: going to discuss. Yeah. So the next feature that's a 1076 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:28,320 Speaker 1: common phenomenological report of the psychedelic experiences verticality, That's what 1077 00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,600 Speaker 1: i'd call it. William James called this the noetic quality. 1078 00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,240 Speaker 1: So this feature of psychedelic experience, which has long interested me, 1079 00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,120 Speaker 1: is the way that a lot of people emerge from 1080 00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 1: their experiences on psilocybin or on LST or something, believing 1081 00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,320 Speaker 1: not just that they had an experience that was fun 1082 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,840 Speaker 1: or was interesting or was unique, but that they learned 1083 00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:57,200 Speaker 1: something crucial and objectively true, that they acquired real, true 1084 00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:02,640 Speaker 1: information or genuine understanding that they did not have before. Uh. 1085 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,320 Speaker 1: And you know, so the American psychologist William James, we've 1086 00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:07,280 Speaker 1: mentioned a couple of times already, he called this the 1087 00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,320 Speaker 1: no edic quality, and he noted very pointedly that it's 1088 00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,080 Speaker 1: different from the way people feel about dreams. Where you 1089 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,200 Speaker 1: go into a dream, you might have a very altered 1090 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,840 Speaker 1: state of consciousness, some strange things happen. You feel maybe 1091 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,880 Speaker 1: in the dream like you learn things that are important, 1092 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,200 Speaker 1: But you almost never wake up from a dream and think, 1093 00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, I learned objectively true information from the dream, 1094 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,480 Speaker 1: right Like, there's there's this knowledge, there's this understanding that 1095 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:39,200 Speaker 1: it was not reality. Even if in the more you know, 1096 00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,640 Speaker 1: extreme cases of nightmares or disturbing dream content, we might 1097 00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: still feel shaken by it. I mean, we've all I 1098 00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,520 Speaker 1: think at that experience where like the dream leaves you, 1099 00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: it affects you and it takes maybe a day to 1100 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,640 Speaker 1: shake it off, but you're not. You're not viewing as it. 1101 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,080 Speaker 1: It's like having seen a horror movie that disturbed you, 1102 00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,560 Speaker 1: as opposed to, oh, my goodness, Jason Vordies attacked me. 1103 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,600 Speaker 1: You easily discard the dreams nonsensical. Um. Now, not everybody 1104 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:06,520 Speaker 1: does this. I mean some people think they get you know, 1105 01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,360 Speaker 1: prophetic visions and dreams and stuff. And this is usually 1106 01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,960 Speaker 1: part of some kind of supernatural worldview in which you 1107 01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,240 Speaker 1: believe that there are gods that are communicating with you 1108 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:19,120 Speaker 1: and all that. But people don't typically uh go from 1109 01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:23,600 Speaker 1: you know, not believing in supernatural conveyances and communications to saying, oh, 1110 01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:27,320 Speaker 1: a dream taught me something objectively true about the universe. 1111 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,880 Speaker 1: But a commonly reported type of psychedelic experience, for example, 1112 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,760 Speaker 1: is the feeling of having been put in contact with 1113 01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:40,880 Speaker 1: or in the presence of some other entity, frequently interpreted 1114 01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,160 Speaker 1: as God or as some you know, embodied form of 1115 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,600 Speaker 1: an ideal like love, or an embodied form of the 1116 01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,320 Speaker 1: universe or some kind of universal consciousness, or as maybe 1117 01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:54,320 Speaker 1: a loved one who has died, or as some more 1118 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,840 Speaker 1: obscure others like Terrence mckinna's machine elves. You know, he 1119 01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,959 Speaker 1: talked about taking d M T and just encountering these 1120 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,160 Speaker 1: other entities, the machine elves or the you know whatever 1121 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,000 Speaker 1: he called them, right, yeah, and the foot of the gods. 1122 01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,440 Speaker 1: I don't think he refers to them and as machine 1123 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,840 Speaker 1: elves there, but he discusses briefly the other that has 1124 01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:15,480 Speaker 1: experienced through d m T. And ultimately he's like, hey, 1125 01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,960 Speaker 1: try yourself, set aside three minutes, eight minutes of your 1126 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,880 Speaker 1: time and go try it for yourself, and you tell 1127 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,320 Speaker 1: me what you experienced. Yeah. And so the really interesting 1128 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,640 Speaker 1: thing here is that so many people come out of 1129 01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,160 Speaker 1: these types of experience is not just thinking wow, that 1130 01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,320 Speaker 1: was an interesting hallucination, like they were watching a movie, 1131 01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:35,640 Speaker 1: but believing they've actually been made aware of the real 1132 01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:40,160 Speaker 1: existence of a real other entity and carrying this belief 1133 01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,840 Speaker 1: of acquired knowledge with them after the effects of the 1134 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,400 Speaker 1: drug have worn off. Another way, I would say veridicality 1135 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,560 Speaker 1: presents his uh in ineffable perceptions of the value of 1136 01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,800 Speaker 1: statements and insights. An example of this would be maybe 1137 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,880 Speaker 1: a person on a psychedelic substances realizes that, you know, 1138 01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,240 Speaker 1: some cliche they've heard a million times, realizes that God 1139 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,280 Speaker 1: is love and they may have heard this a million 1140 01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:08,480 Speaker 1: times before, but suddenly the same statement is interpreted as 1141 01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:12,840 Speaker 1: a profound insight that's revealing in true in ways that 1142 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,440 Speaker 1: can't really be explained. But you have the feeling that 1143 01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,200 Speaker 1: you've discovered a great truth, even if others, you know, 1144 01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,560 Speaker 1: in communicating it to them, they might not see it 1145 01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:25,200 Speaker 1: as as insightful as you do. Another interesting feature of 1146 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,560 Speaker 1: this noetic or vertical quality of psychedelic experiences that it 1147 01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,560 Speaker 1: often feels kind of gnostic to me, I mean nastic 1148 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,760 Speaker 1: in the religious sense, of course. Gnosticism was an ancient 1149 01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,840 Speaker 1: religion in which some form of salvation relied on acquiring 1150 01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:43,200 Speaker 1: secret knowledge or esoteric dogmas and rights that were only 1151 01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,720 Speaker 1: revealed to initiates. Why, you know, there was sort of 1152 01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:50,000 Speaker 1: like the false, uh, fraudulent public face of the religion 1153 01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,400 Speaker 1: that was for just all the people hanging out and 1154 01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:54,520 Speaker 1: listening in the crowds, and then there were the real 1155 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,240 Speaker 1: dogmas and the real truths about you know, the heavens 1156 01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,480 Speaker 1: and what you do to get there. The are sort 1157 01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,840 Speaker 1: of only talked about in secret if you're one of 1158 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,120 Speaker 1: the in crowd. And it's not just that many people 1159 01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:10,800 Speaker 1: think they've gained objectively true information from psychedelic experiences. It's 1160 01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:14,200 Speaker 1: often interpreted as a sort of deep secret that they've 1161 01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,400 Speaker 1: been allowed to glimpse, like the curtain has been lifted 1162 01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,840 Speaker 1: for them, and they are they've been let in on 1163 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,680 Speaker 1: the secret. Yeah, they've seen through the illusion of of 1164 01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:28,400 Speaker 1: perceived reality and maybe had some glimpse that absolute reality. Right. 1165 01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,120 Speaker 1: So a really common version here is the idea that 1166 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:35,120 Speaker 1: people have psychedelic experiences and then afterwards emerged with a 1167 01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,960 Speaker 1: strong conviction that there's more to life than what we see, 1168 01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:42,720 Speaker 1: or that there's some dimension of existence that's beyond the 1169 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,040 Speaker 1: better understood material dimension of existence. In the words of 1170 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:50,520 Speaker 1: William James, the experience quote forbids a premature closing of 1171 01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,800 Speaker 1: our accounts with reality. Oh that's nice and and certainly 1172 01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,480 Speaker 1: the history of psychedelic research is filled with examples of 1173 01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,800 Speaker 1: this as well. You know, often very scientifically minded individuals, 1174 01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, emerging with a newfound or developing or enhanced 1175 01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,600 Speaker 1: sense of either the mystic or often is the case, 1176 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, a connection with nature. And there there could 1177 01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,800 Speaker 1: be multiple things going on here. Either way, it's interesting. 1178 01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:16,680 Speaker 1: I mean, one way of looking at it is that 1179 01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:21,560 Speaker 1: psychedelic experiences do actually reveal something true to people. In 1180 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,280 Speaker 1: another way of looking at it is, there's a fairly 1181 01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:29,480 Speaker 1: consistent psychological effect they produce, creating the illusion that something 1182 01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,840 Speaker 1: objectively true has been revealed. But either way, it's very 1183 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:37,600 Speaker 1: psychologically important and powerful and fascinating that they do this right. 1184 01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you could to ground it more in some 1185 01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:42,800 Speaker 1: of the the science we've touched on on the show before, 1186 01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,280 Speaker 1: like plasticity. You can look at it from a plasticity 1187 01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,280 Speaker 1: standpoint and you could say, well, you know, it's it's 1188 01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,120 Speaker 1: allowing the mind to change, you know, I mean, that's 1189 01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,600 Speaker 1: kind of a Pollen's whole point in the title is 1190 01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,600 Speaker 1: it's not so much these individual substances and what they do. 1191 01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:01,040 Speaker 1: It's not like and that's certainly one of the hallmarks 1192 01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,000 Speaker 1: of the studies will get too later, but it's the 1193 01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,480 Speaker 1: state of mind that it puts one in and what 1194 01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,960 Speaker 1: can be done with an individual when they are in 1195 01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:11,680 Speaker 1: that state of mind exactly. I mean. One of the 1196 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,400 Speaker 1: interesting things about the psychedelic states of mind that that 1197 01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 1: of course is brought up by lots of authors, is 1198 01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,280 Speaker 1: the ways that they parallel what William James wrote about 1199 01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,880 Speaker 1: is the traditional qualities of mystical experience, you know, profound 1200 01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:28,280 Speaker 1: religious experiences that people have Both of these first two 1201 01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:32,160 Speaker 1: characteristics we've been talking about, ineffability and the vertical or 1202 01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:35,760 Speaker 1: no edic quality, are also the first two markers of 1203 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,640 Speaker 1: mystical experience that James writes about in the book The 1204 01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,880 Speaker 1: Varieties of Religious Experience, which is published around the turn 1205 01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:45,480 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. Now, of ineffability, James writes, quote, 1206 01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:48,920 Speaker 1: mystical states are more like states of feeling than states 1207 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,919 Speaker 1: of intellect. No one can make clear to another who 1208 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,080 Speaker 1: has never had a certain feeling in what the quality 1209 01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,360 Speaker 1: or worth of it consists, and of the no edic 1210 01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,920 Speaker 1: quality or the vertical quality. Writes that mystical experiences quote 1211 01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:07,960 Speaker 1: our illuminations, revelations, full of significance and importance, all inarticulate 1212 01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,720 Speaker 1: though they remain, and as a rule they carry with 1213 01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:14,120 Speaker 1: them a curious sense of authority for after time. This 1214 01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:15,520 Speaker 1: reminds me that, you know, the one of the key 1215 01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:20,160 Speaker 1: aspects of traditional psychedelic use, some of the more thought 1216 01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,760 Speaker 1: out counterculture uses as well as the clinical uses today 1217 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,280 Speaker 1: is what occurs after the trip, this period of consolidation 1218 01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,720 Speaker 1: and integration where you're you're stopping and saying, okay, what 1219 01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:33,960 Speaker 1: did that mean? How how shall I interpret this? And 1220 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,520 Speaker 1: then and then move on and apply it to my life. 1221 01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,320 Speaker 1: I think we have to realize that, you know, our 1222 01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:43,360 Speaker 1: memories of psychedelic experiences are still memories, and they still 1223 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,680 Speaker 1: can be altered by the mind, and will be altered 1224 01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:48,280 Speaker 1: by the mind every time we draw them back out again. 1225 01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:51,680 Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, as any experience would be. Just as 1226 01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:53,840 Speaker 1: a funny note, one thing I thought we should mention 1227 01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:56,240 Speaker 1: is that, you know, William James, he's writing around this 1228 01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,880 Speaker 1: turn of the twentieth century, and James was not afforded 1229 01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,800 Speaker 1: the many wonderful options for chemical alterations of consciousness that 1230 01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:07,680 Speaker 1: later researchers where apparently he did a lot of nitrous oxides. 1231 01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:12,040 Speaker 1: You read William James, it's funny to imagine him trying 1232 01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,720 Speaker 1: to like talk about this experience firsthand and just doing 1233 01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:20,800 Speaker 1: whipp its um. But we should mention also James has 1234 01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,960 Speaker 1: two other markers of mystical experience, so I'm not necessarily 1235 01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:28,040 Speaker 1: counting these as as clear markers of psychedelic experiences, but 1236 01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:31,800 Speaker 1: just to to continue his exploration of mystical experiences since 1237 01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,400 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of overlap so far. The other 1238 01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:38,959 Speaker 1: two James mentions are transiency and passivity, so transiency means 1239 01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,760 Speaker 1: the experience is time limited. You know. It's true enough, 1240 01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:44,640 Speaker 1: of course for the trip length of psychedelic drugs, UH 1241 01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:47,840 Speaker 1: doesn't seem a super relevant. But what does seem a 1242 01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:51,280 Speaker 1: little more relevant is James's comment that while the experience 1243 01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,840 Speaker 1: itself doesn't last forever quote from one recurrence to another, 1244 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:58,400 Speaker 1: it is susceptible of continuous development in what has felt 1245 01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:02,400 Speaker 1: as inner richness and imports. And Paullen quotes this section 1246 01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:06,479 Speaker 1: as well. And then finally, there's passivity as a James 1247 01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,800 Speaker 1: and marker of mystical experience, which means the person having 1248 01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:13,640 Speaker 1: the mystical experience believes their will has been subverted or 1249 01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:17,599 Speaker 1: held in abeyance by a superior power. And there are 1250 01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,000 Speaker 1: some psychedelic experiences that have this quality. You could view 1251 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,040 Speaker 1: it as somewhat, though not exactly parallel to the next 1252 01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:26,800 Speaker 1: characteristic we're about to mention. Yeah, and I think set 1253 01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,080 Speaker 1: and setting likely you know, play a key role here 1254 01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:31,280 Speaker 1: as well, though, though it seems to be very difficult 1255 01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:35,479 Speaker 1: to shake with with more intense experiments. UH. Albert Hoffman 1256 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,960 Speaker 1: reflected this, you know, personifying LSD to a certain extent, 1257 01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,519 Speaker 1: it's like a thing that found him and uh and 1258 01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,559 Speaker 1: mckinna certainly discussed it in these terms as well. Yeah. 1259 01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,440 Speaker 1: So the next big thing that is this very interesting 1260 01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:54,400 Speaker 1: common feature of especially maybe higher doses of psychedelic experience, uh, 1261 01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,880 Speaker 1: is the idea of loss of ego. Uh. It's it's 1262 01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,960 Speaker 1: affected by the ineffability criteria. And I would say, because 1263 01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,680 Speaker 1: it's often hard to describe what this is like, but 1264 01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:08,240 Speaker 1: many who have had psychedelic experiences report the dissolution of 1265 01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:12,440 Speaker 1: the self, having consciousness reduced to a state of experience 1266 01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,000 Speaker 1: in which there is no eye anymore, there is no 1267 01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:18,360 Speaker 1: me uh. And one way I've always interpreted this is 1268 01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:21,760 Speaker 1: that some psychedelics have the power to reduce or eliminate 1269 01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:25,000 Speaker 1: the self world distinction. You know that we have this 1270 01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:28,439 Speaker 1: categorical barrier we put up in our minds between everything 1271 01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:31,479 Speaker 1: that is not me and then me. And what happens 1272 01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:35,280 Speaker 1: when that distinction sort of gets blurred or erased. Yeah, 1273 01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,599 Speaker 1: I mean I can certainly relate to this from experience 1274 01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:42,400 Speaker 1: with yoga and meditation. Um. You know, when not every time, 1275 01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,879 Speaker 1: but occasionally occasionally about like a really good yoga session, 1276 01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:49,280 Speaker 1: I can reach that point where it's you know, I 1277 01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,600 Speaker 1: I lose the sense of me, it's a wonderful experience 1278 01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,680 Speaker 1: that that can be I think difficult to put into word. 1279 01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,760 Speaker 1: I mean, the only way you can describe it is 1280 01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:59,679 Speaker 1: like is ego loss or some use the term ego death, 1281 01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,960 Speaker 1: which think is a little it's a little harsh. Let's 1282 01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:07,480 Speaker 1: not pull death into this whole situation experience without a self. Yeah. Yeah. 1283 01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,800 Speaker 1: One way that Terence McKenna describe these these substances and 1284 01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:15,360 Speaker 1: others you describe them as being boundary dissolving uh substances, 1285 01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:18,519 Speaker 1: and talked about their boundary dissolving properties, which I think 1286 01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:22,200 Speaker 1: is is a perfect description the boundary between you and others, 1287 01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:26,440 Speaker 1: between you and nature um or you and the cosmos. 1288 01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:28,920 Speaker 1: It seems to dissolve, so the fortress of the self 1289 01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,800 Speaker 1: crumbles away only for a little bit. And and of 1290 01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:33,479 Speaker 1: course this sort of experience, like a lot of the 1291 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:36,439 Speaker 1: experiences involved in the psychedelic experience, you know, can can 1292 01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:38,880 Speaker 1: can of course be achieved via other means, but is 1293 01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:40,880 Speaker 1: a number of these commentators have pointed out these these 1294 01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:44,640 Speaker 1: chemical shortcuts are are shortcuts, but they're also kind of 1295 01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:48,719 Speaker 1: like high speed shortcuts. They're kind of like express lanes 1296 01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,000 Speaker 1: for better or worse. They require a lot less work 1297 01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:55,920 Speaker 1: than achieving loss of ego through meditation or something, and 1298 01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,599 Speaker 1: a lot less practice, I would say, probably too, right, 1299 01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,120 Speaker 1: But but again, I do we love this description of 1300 01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:04,360 Speaker 1: something being a boundary dissolving substance or even just a 1301 01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:08,320 Speaker 1: boundary dissolving experience. And I feel like, you know, you know, 1302 01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,720 Speaker 1: putting aside you know, psychedelic substances entirely, I feel like 1303 01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:15,479 Speaker 1: we do need more boundary dissolving experiences in life because 1304 01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,640 Speaker 1: we just throw up so many boundaries between ourselves and 1305 01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:23,559 Speaker 1: each other and and uh certainly against the nature. Well, yeah, 1306 01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:26,280 Speaker 1: I mean this is a common I think way that 1307 01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:29,719 Speaker 1: we will talk more in subsequent episodes about interesting research 1308 01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:32,479 Speaker 1: about the ways that psychedelics have been shown to have 1309 01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:35,400 Speaker 1: the potential to actually change adult personality, which is a 1310 01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,760 Speaker 1: fascinating property and makes them kind of worth their weight 1311 01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:41,360 Speaker 1: in gold. Right. But yeah, I mean some of the 1312 01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,640 Speaker 1: ways we can see that as uh so in the 1313 01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:48,439 Speaker 1: boundary dissolving property to whatever extent that does exist between humans, 1314 01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:51,439 Speaker 1: I think tends to lead people who consume psychedelics to 1315 01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:55,120 Speaker 1: have a more communitarian mindset after using them. Uh. The 1316 01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,760 Speaker 1: nature boundary dissolution thing is very interesting because you very 1317 01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,880 Speaker 1: often see uh people having stronger affinities with the rest 1318 01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,719 Speaker 1: of nature, with plants and animals and the natural environment 1319 01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:09,160 Speaker 1: after taking these substances. Michael Paulan in his book compares 1320 01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:13,320 Speaker 1: this dissolution of the boundary with nature to one of 1321 01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:16,040 Speaker 1: my favorites, Alexander von Humboldt, who you know. I think 1322 01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:17,760 Speaker 1: he doesn't name the book, but I think in the 1323 01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,439 Speaker 1: book he alludes to having read The Invention of Nature 1324 01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:24,160 Speaker 1: by Andrea Wolfe, that biography of Humboldt that I recommended 1325 01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:26,639 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago and is still a great 1326 01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:28,800 Speaker 1: read if you get a chance. But von Humboldt said, 1327 01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, one of the great realizations is that you 1328 01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:34,400 Speaker 1: know you are not in nature. He says, I am nature, 1329 01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:39,599 Speaker 1: and that psychedelics seem to encourage people to think this way. 1330 01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,840 Speaker 1: One last interesting common report is this thing that is 1331 01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:47,920 Speaker 1: sometimes I think termed the afterglow. Worth mentioning that some 1332 01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:54,760 Speaker 1: users of psychedelic substances report additional subjective experiences after they've 1333 01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:58,000 Speaker 1: returned to their baseline state of consciousness. So you're no 1334 01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:02,639 Speaker 1: longer experiencing maybe sensory hallus nations or significantly altered states 1335 01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:07,240 Speaker 1: of consciousness, but after you're done with the psychedelic trip 1336 01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:10,960 Speaker 1: on LST or psilocybin. Sometimes people reported that the world 1337 01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:14,280 Speaker 1: just seems very bright and alive and wonderful and full 1338 01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:17,320 Speaker 1: of possibilities. That Michael Paullen describes this is quote the 1339 01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,200 Speaker 1: opposite of a hangover. It's kind of like the windows 1340 01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,960 Speaker 1: have been opened and allowed the air to circulate, and 1341 01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:26,559 Speaker 1: then after the windows are closed once more or mostly closed, Uh, 1342 01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:28,960 Speaker 1: the air is still fresh, the air is still renewed. 1343 01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:31,360 Speaker 1: And and this brings me back to you know what 1344 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,400 Speaker 1: I just said earlier about consolidation and integration. And I 1345 01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:35,920 Speaker 1: think this is gonna be very important to keep in 1346 01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:39,600 Speaker 1: mind as we consider you know, traditional shamanistic and uh, 1347 01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:43,360 Speaker 1: you know, and and scientific uses of these substances. You know, 1348 01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,040 Speaker 1: both in the scientific research is going on today and 1349 01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:49,120 Speaker 1: also the sort of underground therapy sessions, uh that are 1350 01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:51,599 Speaker 1: as well that Michael Paoulan writes about in his book 1351 01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:55,360 Speaker 1: You Know What. Where afterwards, during this afterglow, you ask, well, 1352 01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:57,200 Speaker 1: what did I learn from the experience? What can I 1353 01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:00,439 Speaker 1: bring with this, bring out of this into the waking world. Uh. 1354 01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,040 Speaker 1: It reminds me of one of Alan Watt's famous quotes 1355 01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:05,640 Speaker 1: about you know, in which it compared psychedelic experience to 1356 01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:09,800 Speaker 1: a scientist using a microscope. Yeah, yeah, And the idea 1357 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:12,479 Speaker 1: being that a biologist will use the microscope, but then 1358 01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:14,800 Speaker 1: but he's not gonna have they're not gonna have their 1359 01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:17,920 Speaker 1: eye glued to the microscope. They have to leave the microscope. 1360 01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:22,280 Speaker 1: Then in order to understand nature as it is conceived of, 1361 01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:27,280 Speaker 1: you know, outside of the microscopic or telescopic experience, right, 1362 01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:31,040 Speaker 1: you don't really see or observe just by looking at something. 1363 01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:33,479 Speaker 1: You have to also step back and think about what 1364 01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:36,320 Speaker 1: you saw right now. A couple of other bits of 1365 01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:38,840 Speaker 1: insight that were brought up in that World Science Festival panel, 1366 01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,840 Speaker 1: and el Seth mentioned that there is increased randomness where 1367 01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:45,200 Speaker 1: there can be and uh and and he also pointed 1368 01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:47,320 Speaker 1: out that, you know this, our sense of self is 1369 01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:51,400 Speaker 1: ultimately a perception and the default mode network plays a 1370 01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:54,479 Speaker 1: big role in it. He said, it's important to point 1371 01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:57,920 Speaker 1: out that the self is not the default fault mode network. 1372 01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:01,280 Speaker 1: We shouldn't like draw two strong of a comparison between 1373 01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,760 Speaker 1: the two, but there's still a strong connection. And he said, 1374 01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:08,680 Speaker 1: the psychedelics temporarily reorganize these networks, you know, so so 1375 01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:12,480 Speaker 1: forget you know, new hallucinations. They mess with the primary 1376 01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:16,160 Speaker 1: hallucination of the self, the hallucination that we have day 1377 01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:19,280 Speaker 1: in and day out, you know, the idea that we're 1378 01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:21,559 Speaker 1: set off from the natural world, that we're set off 1379 01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:24,320 Speaker 1: from each other. So that's I think that's a really 1380 01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:26,840 Speaker 1: interesting way of looking at it. Don't think about the 1381 01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:29,800 Speaker 1: new hallucination that is brought on by a psychedelic, but 1382 01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:33,320 Speaker 1: the primary hallucination that may be disrupted, and then what 1383 01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:35,280 Speaker 1: we can learn from that. Well, yeah, I mean one 1384 01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,719 Speaker 1: of the funny things is that, so the the idea 1385 01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:42,439 Speaker 1: of seeing hallucinations while you're on a psychedelic can sort 1386 01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:45,559 Speaker 1: of bias you toward thinking that what psychedelics do is 1387 01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:48,880 Speaker 1: they give you an inaccurate perception of nature because of course, 1388 01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,519 Speaker 1: you know, you hallucinate things on psychedelics that there's no 1389 01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:55,240 Speaker 1: way to show that they're actually physically there. But at 1390 01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:58,520 Speaker 1: the same time, you shouldn't conclude from that the corollary 1391 01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:03,360 Speaker 1: that the standard, like the default state of consciousness, is 1392 01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:07,799 Speaker 1: accurate and the altered state of consciousness is thus estranged 1393 01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:11,960 Speaker 1: or inaccurate. It might see things in the physical environment 1394 01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:15,479 Speaker 1: that aren't physically there, but it's perception of the self 1395 01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:17,880 Speaker 1: and how the self works maybe no less accurate or 1396 01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:20,880 Speaker 1: maybe more accurate than your default state, right, And then 1397 01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:22,520 Speaker 1: a lot of this too. It's like we're not necessarily 1398 01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:25,240 Speaker 1: talking about a matrix scenario where you know, it's like, oh, 1399 01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:27,680 Speaker 1: now I see the real world, but like the details 1400 01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,160 Speaker 1: that the emphasis is that we play some things, etcetera, 1401 01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:33,479 Speaker 1: the values that we place. Another individual in that panel 1402 01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,960 Speaker 1: World Science Festival was Berkeley professor of psychology and philosophy 1403 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,759 Speaker 1: Alison Gottnick, who we we've also discussed in the program 1404 01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:43,240 Speaker 1: here before because she deals a lot with the minds 1405 01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:46,640 Speaker 1: of young children and developing mind states. You know, she 1406 01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:50,320 Speaker 1: discussed how it's it's how these how psychedelics seem to 1407 01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:55,240 Speaker 1: open up exploratory possibilities, uh in individuals, you know, in 1408 01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:57,680 Speaker 1: keeping with the plasticity of in the mind of a 1409 01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:02,320 Speaker 1: young child. She calls this lantern consciousness and you know, 1410 01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:05,400 Speaker 1: comparing it to the illumination of a lantern. And she says, 1411 01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,720 Speaker 1: she said before, that babies and young children are basically 1412 01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:12,560 Speaker 1: tripping all the time. They are basically having a psychedelic experience, 1413 01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:15,120 Speaker 1: which is why you know, children can be so trying 1414 01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,360 Speaker 1: because they're just really will not boil down and be 1415 01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:22,640 Speaker 1: a part of the rational world. They're continually in psychedelic 1416 01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:26,040 Speaker 1: exploration mode. And so maybe you know, part of it 1417 01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:29,080 Speaker 1: is that psychedelics put one or allow one to connect 1418 01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,360 Speaker 1: maybe in a more adult way, with that same level 1419 01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:34,080 Speaker 1: of plasticity. Yeah, I mean one of the things that's 1420 01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:38,680 Speaker 1: commonly it's a metaphor that's often used by psychologist psychiatrists 1421 01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:42,000 Speaker 1: who are interested in this mode of thinking that psychedelics, uh, 1422 01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:45,839 Speaker 1: sort of like they break the automatic cliches of connection 1423 01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:47,559 Speaker 1: that you make in your mind, so you're able to 1424 01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:50,400 Speaker 1: see familiar objects as if you're seeing them for the 1425 01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:53,280 Speaker 1: first time. And our mind is just full of these 1426 01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:57,000 Speaker 1: nonverbal cliches of connections we make between things. When we 1427 01:17:57,080 --> 01:18:00,240 Speaker 1: see a pen, we know it's for writing, and you 1428 01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:02,479 Speaker 1: just see it and like you ignore all of the 1429 01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:05,280 Speaker 1: other strange associations you might make about the form of 1430 01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:08,559 Speaker 1: the pen in your hand. But the psychedelics, like they 1431 01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:11,800 Speaker 1: break that automatic connection, and instead you see it as 1432 01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:14,920 Speaker 1: this radically ambiguous form that appears before you, and you 1433 01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:17,960 Speaker 1: can make connections to all kinds of things. All right, well, 1434 01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna call this episode right here, but we will 1435 01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:24,240 Speaker 1: continue this exploration in the next at least a couple 1436 01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,880 Speaker 1: of episodes, so a lot of ground to cover. I 1437 01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:29,280 Speaker 1: think we went kind of long this time, but I 1438 01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:31,360 Speaker 1: think it was important to get all the grounding there 1439 01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:33,760 Speaker 1: so we can follow through in in the next few 1440 01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:36,320 Speaker 1: episodes where we're gonna talk about history and the natural 1441 01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:40,000 Speaker 1: history of psychedelics and especially psilocybin, to talk about some 1442 01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:43,040 Speaker 1: of the research that's been going on, especially since around 1443 01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:46,640 Speaker 1: two thousand six, about therapeutic uses of psychedelics and the 1444 01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,760 Speaker 1: ways they can contribute to adult personality change and other things. Yeah, 1445 01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:53,000 Speaker 1: I think it's it's fascinating how just just in the 1446 01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:54,880 Speaker 1: history of this show, in the history of Stuff to 1447 01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:57,559 Speaker 1: About Your Mind, like we we have seen so much 1448 01:18:57,760 --> 01:19:01,120 Speaker 1: progress made with psychede like research. So it's gonna be 1449 01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:04,920 Speaker 1: really exciting to discuss that in upcoming episodes. Totally all right. 1450 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:06,559 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out more 1451 01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:08,479 Speaker 1: episodes Stuff to Blow your Mind, there are a ton 1452 01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:10,360 Speaker 1: of ways to do that. You can go to our mothership, 1453 01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:13,920 Speaker 1: our homepage that's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Also, hey, 1454 01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:15,920 Speaker 1: if you want to support the show, the best thing 1455 01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:17,760 Speaker 1: you can do is tell your friends about it, tell 1456 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,960 Speaker 1: your family members about it. Wherever you get the podcast itself, 1457 01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:24,080 Speaker 1: leave us some stars leave a nice review if if 1458 01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:26,080 Speaker 1: that's an option to do so, that will help us 1459 01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:28,639 Speaker 1: out in the long run. So huge thanks to our 1460 01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:32,599 Speaker 1: excellent brand new audio producer Maya Cole. If you would 1461 01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:34,559 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 1462 01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:37,040 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 1463 01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:39,599 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hi, you can email 1464 01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:52,680 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1465 01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:55,000 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radios. 1466 01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:57,360 Speaker 1: How stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio 1467 01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:59,920 Speaker 1: is at the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or We're 1468 01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:17,439 Speaker 1: for you listen to your favorite shows. H