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Speaker 1: Pope Leo speaking out on the traditional Latin Mass Church

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Speaker 1: teaching on LGBT issues and really continue the church's controversial

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Speaker 1: deal with China. The Prayerful Posse explores it all. Next,

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Speaker 1: welcome to a very special Prayerful Posse. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to support

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to announce something I've never done before.

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Speaker 1: I'm going on a cruise to the Grecian Isles in

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Speaker 1: the footsteps of the Apostles Saint Paul and Saint John.

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Speaker 1: We're going to Philippi, Thessalonia, Athens, corinth Crete, Patmos, and

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Speaker 1: Ephesus to visit the Blessed Virgin's House. Space is very limited,

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Speaker 1: but this eleven day cruise in September of twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: And now I'd like to welcome the Prayerful Posse. Canon

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Speaker 1: Lawyer Priests of the Archdiocese of New York. Father Gerald Murray,

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Speaker 1: an editor in Chief of the Catholic Thing dot Org.

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Speaker 1: Robert royalgentleman, thanks for coming together again. Pope Leo did

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Speaker 1: this interview with journalist Elise Allen for a new book

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Speaker 1: which is making some news. He said this about the

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Speaker 1: traditional Latin Mass, between the Tridentine Mass and the Vatican

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Speaker 1: two Mass, the Mass of poll the sixth. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure where that's going to go. It's obviously very complicated.

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Speaker 1: I know that part of that issue, unfortunately, has become

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Speaker 1: a gain part of a process of polarization. People have

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Speaker 1: used the liturgy as an excuse for advancing other topics.

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Speaker 1: It's become a political tool, and that's very unfortunate. Father

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Speaker 1: Pope Leo went on to say that there would be

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Speaker 1: an opportunity soon to meet with the TLM community, presumably

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Speaker 1: referring to the TLM to be celebrated in Saint Peter's

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Speaker 1: Basilica by Cardinal Raymond Burke.

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Speaker 2: I had a conversation with him about this last week.

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Speaker 1: The Cardinal seemed very optimistic given the permission that was

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Speaker 1: granted by Pope Leo to say that mass. Your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on the Pope characterizing the ancient right of the mass

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Speaker 1: as a part of a process of polarization.

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Speaker 3: Well, I find this whole language of polarization troubling because

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Speaker 3: it's basically a Hegelian category, meaning it's a philosophical approach

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Speaker 3: that truth is in the middle and at the extremes

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Speaker 3: you have things that are to be rejected. And that's

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Speaker 3: not how the Catholic Church understands the Gospel, solemn teachings,

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Speaker 3: and the liturgy is not a polarizing thing in and

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Speaker 3: of itself because it's a form of worship. And in

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Speaker 3: that same interview, Pope Leo said that basically the New Mass,

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Speaker 3: there's not much differ between the New Mass and the

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Speaker 3: Old Mass if it's well celebrated. And I said, I said,

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Speaker 3: Pope Leo, don't you understand that this has been an

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Speaker 3: issue since the end of the Second Vatican Council. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't made up. Archbishop Lefevre and his followers had some

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Speaker 3: objections to the changes made in the Mass. There's nothing

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Speaker 3: wrong with questioning how things are done. When there's a reform,

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Speaker 3: it should be done respectfully. And I think Pope Benedict

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Speaker 3: arrived at a very good solution, which is let those

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Speaker 3: who want the old Mass celebrated, Let those who want

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Speaker 3: the new Mass celebrated. But to kind of disqualify and say, well,

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Speaker 3: by advocating for the old mass, you're drawing people to

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Speaker 3: an extreme position. I don't think that's the right analysis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I want to get in a moment. Father,

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Speaker 1: I'll let you steal on this while I go to Bob.

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Speaker 1: But I need you to describe for people the difference

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Speaker 1: between those two masses, the new Mass of poll the

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Speaker 1: sixth and the traditional Latin mask. But Bob, your reaction

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Speaker 1: to this idea of polarization, but clearly in the same

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Speaker 1: breath there's some openness here. At least the Pope is

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Speaker 1: willing to hear an argument.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think that that is maybe the hopeful takeaway from

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Speaker 4: what isn't really yet a settled opinion on his part,

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Speaker 4: and to his credit, he also mentioned the abuses of

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Speaker 4: the new form of the Mass that have taken place

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Speaker 4: that have caused some people of more traditional kind of

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Speaker 4: orientation to object what they are finding. I mean, we've

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Speaker 4: all talked about the clown masses, and these things go on,

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Speaker 4: you know, to this day. They go on in yeah,

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Speaker 4: a strange way. But look, the liturgy is something that

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Speaker 4: isn't just marginal. It's the way we pray is who

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Speaker 4: we are, and we need to recognize that at the

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Speaker 4: deepest possible level that we even know so far as

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Speaker 4: we know the surveys that were done to the bishops

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Speaker 4: by Pope Francis. Remember this caused a great controversy. We've

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Speaker 4: talked about it. Yeah, most bishops, the ones who responded

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Speaker 4: at least, and we have to assume that the ones

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Speaker 4: who responded are the that had some interest in telling

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Speaker 4: the Pope with their thinking.

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Speaker 3: The ones who.

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Speaker 4: Responded said they had no problem in the majority. So

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Speaker 4: if there is a polarization, I don't think it's coming

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Speaker 4: at least in my own experience, and I think for

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Speaker 4: most people's experience, it's not coming from those who want

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Speaker 4: the traditional LATINSS. You just want the traditional Latin Mass.

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Speaker 4: They're not looking for any ideological arguments or they're not

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Speaker 4: even getting into the theology other than the theology of

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Speaker 4: the liturgy.

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Speaker 1: Well, and the Pope mentioned the abuses of the New Mass,

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Speaker 1: but no one suggesting that it be suppressed or banned,

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Speaker 1: you know, because of that, and father this notion, this narrative.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to use the term narrative because That's what

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Speaker 1: I think. It is this narrative that a mass that

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Speaker 1: was being celebrated, the traditional Latin mass for years under

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Speaker 1: Pope Benedict, along with the new mass in the same parish.

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Speaker 1: This didn't cause any conference, there was no polarization. But

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Speaker 1: this is the narrative. Tell us the difference between that

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Speaker 1: new mass and the old mass. In substance, what is

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Speaker 1: difference because even the polpier makes what I would argue

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Speaker 1: you could quibble about I don't think it's a correct

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Speaker 1: appreciation that, well they're the same. Just say it in Latin,

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Speaker 1: say the new mass in Latin.

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Speaker 3: Well, no, the old mass. The structure of it's essentially

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Speaker 3: the same as the new mass, because you basically have

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Speaker 3: the beginning. You have the confedio or the gloria, then

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Speaker 3: you have the opening prayer, the readings, the offeratry, then

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Speaker 3: you have the cannon, and then you have the sam

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Speaker 3: of God and the offering of communion of final blessing.

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Speaker 3: But the form is a lot different. You know, prayers

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Speaker 3: at the foot of the altar to begin it. I

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Speaker 3: remember Alice von Hildebrand, the wife of Dietrich von Hildebrand,

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Speaker 3: who was a great lover of the traditional Latin Mass,

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Speaker 3: she said to me. In the old Mass, before you

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Speaker 3: approached the altar, you begged pardon for your sins. And

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Speaker 3: it was very symbolically done because the altar boys would

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Speaker 3: repeat the confedio or after the priest had said it,

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Speaker 3: and they represented the congregation. Now and reforms that were

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Speaker 3: done in the fifties, the people could also at a

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Speaker 3: dialogue Mass say the the only then did you go

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Speaker 3: up to the altar and kiss it. And the altar

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Speaker 3: represents Christ, so before you approach the body of Christ,

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Speaker 3: you asked for pardon. The offeratory prayers were changed, and

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Speaker 3: that is something that serious objections to. They became blessing

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Speaker 3: meal time blessing prayers. They weren't as sacrificially oriented as

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Speaker 3: the old offeratory prayers. Then one of the greatest differences

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Speaker 3: is the silent canon, because in the old Mass, the

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Speaker 3: priest says the words, so the whole canon of the

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Speaker 3: Mass it's very silently, and then the words of consecration

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Speaker 3: are not heard by most people. Now, all of these change.

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Speaker 3: The microphones were introduced, and the Vatican did permit microphones

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Speaker 3: on alters. So you know, Bob will rememberhen I was

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Speaker 3: a kid, I barely remember the old Mass, but that

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Speaker 3: was a big difference. And when I went to my

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Speaker 3: first traditional Latin Mass as a young priest and I

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Speaker 3: saw the silent canon, I was very moved. You know,

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Speaker 3: the silent canon is. Pope Benedict said this as a theologian,

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Speaker 3: it's like the econostasis. You protect the sacred offering by

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Speaker 3: surrounding it with mystery, just like a kind of statis does.

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Speaker 3: So that was and then of course we have the

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Speaker 3: other aspects. Communion was received kneeling at the altar, rail

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Speaker 3: was received on the tongue. You did not have, you know,

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Speaker 3: communion in the hand and people standing. So there are

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Speaker 3: other elements, and you know, people are aware of that.

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Speaker 3: But the fact of the matter is there are different

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Speaker 3: sensibilities that prompted the changes, and the Church is willing

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Speaker 3: to respect those. Under Pope John Pull the second and Benedict,

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Speaker 3: it was only Pope Rancews who said there's only one

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Speaker 3: way to look at the Mass, and that was a problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he cleaved, you know, cut off the entire

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Speaker 1: tradition that preceded it, or tried to. Meanwhile, and I

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Speaker 1: guess this is part of that attempt to extinguish the past.

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Speaker 2: And as you said, I agree with your father.

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Speaker 1: There is something substantively different about the pacing, the timing,

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Speaker 1: the movements, the gestures, and the people, particularly young people,

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Speaker 1: they're absorbing that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I didn't make the Latin Mass

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Speaker 2: this week.

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Speaker 1: I was running too late, but I pulled up right after,

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Speaker 1: and floods of people are coming out of church, young

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Speaker 1: people with the babies and the mantillas on their heads.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a mass following here that the church

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Speaker 1: shouldn't ignore. My bed is Poplio will get an earful

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Speaker 1: from those who really do understand the difference between the

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Speaker 1: new and the old, and hopefully they can bring him,

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Speaker 1: you know, up to speed on the nuances of that

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Speaker 1: and what's really attracting this young audience. Meanwhile, the band

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Speaker 1: on the TLM goes into effect full effect. In the

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Speaker 1: Diocese of Charlotte, North Carolina. We talked about this early

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Speaker 1: on the beginning of October. There'll be no more mass

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Speaker 1: Latin Mass in the parishes, just in one remote worship center.

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Speaker 1: It's not even a parish, and the outgoing Bishop of Monterey,

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Speaker 1: California has killed the additional Latin Mass in that diocese

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Speaker 1: as he moves to take over the Diocese of Boston, Texas,

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Speaker 1: where I'm sure he'll do the same. Father, this seems

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Speaker 1: to be an obsession at this point.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think this is part of the syndrome we

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Speaker 3: could say, of supporting Pope Francis's vision of things and saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, those bishops say, Pope Francis made this decision,

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Speaker 3: we must go along with it. And the only answer

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Speaker 3: to that is just say, now, wait a minute. Pope

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Speaker 3: Francis also did not abolish the Fraternity of Saint Peter

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Speaker 3: and the Institute of Christ the King, in other words,

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Speaker 3: and he gave them, you know, permission to continue to

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Speaker 3: do what they were always doing, which is to celebrate

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Speaker 3: the Latin Mass. So it never made sense to me

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Speaker 3: that you could have some priests who are authorized by

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Speaker 3: the Pope and then others their local bishops, you know,

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Speaker 3: are forbidding them. There was a schizophrenia here which which

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Speaker 3: basically is shown in the fact that you can have

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Speaker 3: a diocese where the Latin Mass is still permitted and

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Speaker 3: then the diocese next door they shut it all down.

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Speaker 3: It makes no sense to me, because where in the

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Speaker 3: history of the church do pastors throw people out of

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Speaker 3: their parishes who are obedient, loyal Catholics because the form

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Speaker 3: of the mass that they like, the Pope didn't really

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Speaker 3: like it. We just have to say, Holy Father, you're

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Speaker 3: entieted your opinion, but please, you know, isn't the church

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Speaker 3: more than the hierarchy. We've always been told that you're right,

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Speaker 3: We're people of God.

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Speaker 1: Listen, it's the people of God's church. Until the people

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Speaker 1: of God want you know, to be sacred, Reverend Holy

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Speaker 1: and tie themselves to tradition, then it's no longer the

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Speaker 1: people of God. It's the people of the Pope, the

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Speaker 1: Church of the Pope. Bob. I want to move to

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Speaker 1: something that we've also covered in recent weeks, really in years,

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Speaker 1: regarding diplomatic relations with China. The Pope said this quote.

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Speaker 1: In the short term, I will continue the policy on

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Speaker 1: China that the Holy See has followed. But Leo's referring

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Speaker 1: to that still secret Vatican agreement with China allowing the

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Speaker 1: CCP input in too choosing Catholic bishops and confirming them.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is the point here of continuing

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Speaker 1: this policy?

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Speaker 4: Well, I would say overall, and this one point is

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Speaker 4: just part of an overall sense that I think we

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Speaker 4: get of him from this interview. He says, actually early

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Speaker 4: on in the excerpts that have been published, that it's

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Speaker 4: something new for him to be on the world stage,

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Speaker 4: that there's a huge learning curve that he's going through.

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Speaker 4: And I kind of take that reading as the kind

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Speaker 4: of thing that a parish priest comes when he comes

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Speaker 4: into a new parish, and you know, the bishop may

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Speaker 4: say to him, look, take a year, learn what's going on,

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Speaker 4: figure out what's good and what's bad, and what's happened

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Speaker 4: in the past, and then after you've got a grip

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Speaker 4: on what's been happening out there, you can do something.

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Speaker 4: I don't know that he's been very intimately involved in

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Speaker 4: these negotiations with China. He's been to China, as I understand,

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Speaker 4: he has some experience of what's there. But certainly he

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Speaker 4: has to know that since that Seks so called secret

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Speaker 4: agreement was signed, that the situation of Catholics in China

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Speaker 4: has not improved, and in fact there's been pressure put

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Speaker 4: on the hierarchy. As our friendly sche has documented, ten

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Speaker 4: bishops are missing. We don't know where they are. They

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Speaker 4: could be dead, they could just be in prison. They

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Speaker 4: could be being brainwashed, which is typical the Chinese these days,

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Speaker 4: and then a lot of pressure is put on the

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Speaker 4: individual churches where the signs of the Virgin Mary crosses

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Speaker 4: are taken down. President she is talking about cynicizing the

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Speaker 4: Chinese Church, which means making it internal to China and

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Speaker 4: not externally connected to the Vatican, and all sorts of

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Speaker 4: difficulties like that that. Inevitably, I think he's a fair man.

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Speaker 4: He's an intelligent man. If he's going to look at

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Speaker 4: this in an objective way, he's going to have to

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Speaker 4: deal with this at some point. He probably isn't in

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Speaker 4: a position to make any changes right now, but inevitably

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Speaker 4: there's going to have to be some change, because it's

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Speaker 4: not a situation. We know our friend Jimmy Lai is

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Speaker 4: finally being tried in China for treason and some other

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Speaker 4: trumped up charges, and we can hope that he has

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Speaker 4: found guilty and expelled and allowed to go to England

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Speaker 4: where he has a citizenship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Father, it is outrageous to me, and I frankly had forgotten,

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Speaker 1: and it's a pity that the church is not consistently

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Speaker 1: raising up these ten missing bishops who have either been

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Speaker 1: arrested or under house arrest, have been ferried away to

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Speaker 1: some concentration camp. The fact that the church isn't holding

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Speaker 1: these people up and drawing attention to the suffering church

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Speaker 1: in China. Do you think there's some long range plan

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Speaker 1: here or the pope is evolving one.

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Speaker 3: I don't think the Pope has a long range planned

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Speaker 3: at this point. Now, the Secretary of the State may have,

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Speaker 3: because they are the ones who negotiated the agreement. But

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Speaker 3: I'll chime in and say absolutely regrettable because again, the

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Speaker 3: the role of the Catholic Church, the mission of church

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Speaker 3: is not to engage in diplomatic negotiations with governments. I mean,

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Speaker 3: does that how the Roman martyrs treated the emperors? You know,

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Speaker 3: you know before we go to the you know, the

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Speaker 3: coliseum to be slain. You know, could we just have

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Speaker 3: a sit down and write a document. We don't do that.

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Speaker 3: You know, the Church's mission is to preach salvation and

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Speaker 3: that's what's being harmed by disagreement. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: you saw as part of the latest news out of

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Speaker 3: China's they're forbidding Catholics to use the internet as a

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Speaker 3: tool to evangelize. This is a new decree coming down,

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Speaker 3: So you're basically surrendering the selection of your bishops to

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Speaker 3: a group of people who do not have any interest

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Speaker 3: in what you're doing except to shut it down. And

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Speaker 3: that's what they're doing. They're shutting it down one by one.

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Speaker 3: And you know, if the Pope wants to display wisdom

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Speaker 3: in this matter, he should call in cardinals en and

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Speaker 3: convene a meeting to kind of reassess the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: Because Carden said, you know, when we was talking about peripheries,

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Speaker 3: you know, getting to Rome to tell things, Hong Kong

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Speaker 3: is the most parent on the longest periphery from Rome

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Speaker 3: that you can imagine the cardinals sends a ninety five

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Speaker 3: year old man with wisdom and experience. He should be

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Speaker 3: listened to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he made that trip to let the cardinals

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Speaker 1: know about this before this conclave. You would think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, there might have been some sensitivity to that.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully that witness endures. That's a good segue. Father to

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Speaker 1: Pope Leo, reflecting on how he sees his role as pope,

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Speaker 1: he said this, I don't see my primary role as

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Speaker 1: trying to be the solver of the world's problems. I

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Speaker 1: don't see my role as that at all, really, although

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Speaker 1: I think that the Church has a voice, a message

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Speaker 1: that needs to continue to be preached, to be spoken

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Speaker 1: and spoken loudly. End quote. Father. Then Bob, isn't Jesus

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Speaker 1: Christ the answer to the world's problems?

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Speaker 3: Well, of course, because the real problem in the world

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Speaker 3: the sin and ignorance, you know, ignorance of God and

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Speaker 3: the refusal to obey His law. The root to happiness

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Speaker 3: bury across the cavalry, die and rise with Christ. So

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Speaker 3: the message of salvation, that's what by the way, La

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Speaker 3: Latin mass. You know, people wanting to have lexio devine

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Speaker 3: or read the scripture's prayers. People know what the church offers.

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Speaker 3: They want it. Now when we get into this environmentalism

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Speaker 3: and immigration advocacy, now we have the artificial intelligence challenge.

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Speaker 3: You know, we always have to step back and say,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're speaking from the perspective of what Christ

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Speaker 3: is wanting to do in the world through us. We

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Speaker 3: shouldn't pose as an alternate expert who's going to tell

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Speaker 3: governments what to do.

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Speaker 1: Bob, your reaction to this job description if he will, If.

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Speaker 4: I'm not mistaken, it was Madonna who objection to Frances

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Speaker 4: saying this because you know, people who are world they

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Speaker 4: want the Church to talk about world matters. And I'm

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Speaker 4: glad that he said that directly. Yeah, he kind of

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Speaker 4: also then in the interview, and this I think again

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Speaker 4: as part of his learning curve that he's going through

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Speaker 4: as an international public figure. Plague on the biggest stage

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Speaker 4: that you can possibly imagine, which is the Church, the

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Speaker 4: Catholic Church in the world, he still also talks about

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Speaker 4: you know, he talks about things like immigration and climate

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Speaker 4: change and whatnot. The Church doesn't have any particular insight

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Speaker 4: into these things. I mean, what should the immigration policy

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Speaker 4: be in the United States with the church here? And

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Speaker 4: what he has often said is we should respect the

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Speaker 4: dignity of human beings. Well, yeah, of course we should.

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Speaker 4: All human beings have dignity that was given to them

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Speaker 4: by God. But doesn't that doesn't solve the question of

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Speaker 4: how much immigration can any particular country tolerate In Europe,

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Speaker 4: and I think this is something that he's going to

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Speaker 4: have to confront before long. Something similar to what Father

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Speaker 4: was talking about in China is going on. We just

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Speaker 4: learned in the past few days that apps like hallow

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Speaker 4: are being banned in the European Union and Bible online

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Speaker 4: Bible resources, presumably because they say out of worries about

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Speaker 4: safety or you know, somehow these are going to harm

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Speaker 4: minorities or maybe Muslims. And there's a kind of a

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Speaker 4: veto power that is now going on about the presence

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Speaker 4: of Christianity in developed countries. We see the same thing

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Speaker 4: in a less formalized way here in the United States.

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Speaker 4: So look, these are big questions that he's going to

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Speaker 4: have to grow up to. And I like, starting from

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Speaker 4: the humble point that we don't really First of all,

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Speaker 4: it isn't really our business to try to save the

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Speaker 4: world by solving all the world's problems, because the Church

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Speaker 4: can't do that. Really, to emphasize those important things that

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Speaker 4: Christ is the answer. We have certain moral principles that

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Speaker 4: flow out of our faith in Jesus Christ. We seek

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Speaker 4: to respect all people, and we provide a floor there

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Speaker 4: for people of goodwill, and not everybody is of good will.

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Speaker 4: It was playing as an international actor. People will who

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Speaker 4: want to respect that can use that to find ways

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Speaker 4: to solve certain problems. But it's not the church, the

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Speaker 4: Church's world to solve those problems.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Father, since Bob raised that theologian Madonna, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: read her comment.

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Speaker 2: She reacted to the pope's job description.

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Speaker 1: There, she said, the whole point of teaching and learning

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Speaker 1: the Gospel is to inspire people to love one another

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Speaker 1: and make the world a better place, not just with words,

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Speaker 1: with actions, which is exactly what Jesus did. I'm truly

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Speaker 1: disappointed by this, Madonna said, are you disappointed, Father.

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Speaker 3: No, you know, I'm not disappointed because I think it's

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Speaker 3: a necessary corrective. The church is not founded in order

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Speaker 3: that we would have national parks with no garbage on this,

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Speaker 3: you know, on the on the lawns. And I'm all

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Speaker 3: in favor of having national parks with no garbage, but

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Speaker 3: that's not the mission of the church. The mission of

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Speaker 3: the church is to get people into heaven. It's to

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Speaker 3: help souls no love and serve God in this life

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Speaker 3: and be happy with Him forever in the next. That's

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Speaker 3: the message. And you know, Madonna, she's you know, she

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Speaker 3: is a Catholic, and she was raised a Catholic, and

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Speaker 3: I pray that she'll, you know, make it to heaven

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Speaker 3: along with me and all of us. But you know,

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Speaker 3: the pope's job is not a worldly success story mission,

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Speaker 3: you know, solve solve all the problems. That's not the truth.

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Speaker 1: During a lengthy interview or this length the interview rather

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Speaker 1: with Alan, he also the Pope reflected on LGBT issues,

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Speaker 1: which he placed in the category of hot button issues.

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Speaker 1: Your reaction to this comment, he said, quote, people want

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Speaker 1: the church doctrine to change, want attitudes to change. I

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Speaker 1: think we have to change attitudes before we even think

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Speaker 1: about changing what the church says about any given question, Bob.

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Speaker 1: He went on to say he didn't foresee the church

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Speaker 1: teaching changing in this regard, but that that idea that

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Speaker 1: changing attitudes have to occur before church teaching, what does

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Speaker 1: that mean?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that was the most unfortunate part of

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Speaker 4: this interview. And I think that there too, we see

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Speaker 4: a reflection that he's he's groping around. He is not

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Speaker 4: used to speaking in public like this. Bishop Baron said

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Speaker 4: that he sat at the table with pop Leo then

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Speaker 4: Robert Prevo during the Synod several times, and he was

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Speaker 4: the most quiet participant on these sented tables, and so

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Speaker 4: you know, he's a reticent man. He's thoughtful, but he's

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Speaker 4: a reticent kind of man. And unfortunately he gave the

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Speaker 4: impression I don't even like a pope using the term

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Speaker 4: hot button issues because it makes it look like what

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Speaker 4: we're talking about is political issues rather than the dogmatic

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Speaker 4: teachings of the church. This isn't just about, you know,

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Speaker 4: should there be this or that type of celebration on

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Speaker 4: a feast day or one thing or another. These things

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Speaker 4: are things that are negotiable and their issues in a

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Speaker 4: kind of a generalized way. When we're talking about LGBT,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about the nature of man and woman placed

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Speaker 4: in the garden of Eden by God and you know,

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Speaker 4: made it in his image and likeness. A whole history

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Speaker 4: of our Western civilization comes forth from that very honorable history.

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Speaker 4: I think in a number of ways, he's talked about

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Speaker 4: the importance of the family and how he knows that

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Speaker 4: even talking about the traditional family as we now have

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Speaker 4: to call it will anger some people. So look, he's

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Speaker 4: a little he's a little leery, I think in touching

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Speaker 4: these issues, and I think he misspoke there. I at

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Speaker 4: least hope that he does. He doesn't think that that

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Speaker 4: show the pope can change doctrine. He obviously can't. We

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Speaker 4: received doctrine and we develop it as Newman told us,

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Speaker 4: but we never change doctrine.

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Speaker 1: Well, father, this is the danger of a pope granting these,

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Speaker 1: you know, extensive interviews over many days. You get dragged

432
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: inevitably into areas that, frankly, if you're not someone comfortable

433
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: with enunciating your thoughts in public, you can get pulled

434
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,239
Speaker 1: into areas where, frankly, you shouldn't go.

435
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 3: Yes, this is the objection that's traditionally given to pope's

436
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 3: giving interviews. They didn't do that. Piez the twelfth didn't

437
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: give interviews. Paul the six didn't. Uh, there's a reason now,

438
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 3: when the pope is going to issue, for instance, a

439
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 3: sermon or an audience talk, that's drafted, it's reviewed, there's

440
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 3: a theologian who reads it. In other words, every care

441
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 3: is taken in the Holy See. So what the pope

442
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 3: says will be doctrinally accurate, will be pastorally sensitive, and

443
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 3: will be to the point in the interview that's you know,

444
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 3: can be an intellectual ambush. You know, someone were to

445
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 3: interview me and to say, well, you know, the situation

446
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 3: of the church in Bolivia includes the following, what do

447
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 3: you think? I have no way of answering that quote

448
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 3: I'm always going on Olivia.

449
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 5: You know.

450
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 3: So if the pope is going to be asked stuff

451
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: and then uses expressions such as, you know, changing attitudes,

452
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 3: and my answer is which attitudes are you referring to?

453
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 3: Because attitude, there are good attitudes and there are bad attitudes.

454
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: Well, this is a question.

455
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: Can you get a plurality of people supporting a given sin?

456
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 1: And then we can move to ask for an official

457
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: change in church teaching. I mean, talk father about the

458
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: nature of the church. Bob touched on this, the nature

459
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: of church teaching. This is not something that the next

460
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,959
Speaker 1: guy elected can just wish away and declare, you know,

461
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: a new teaching. This is not within the job description

462
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: or purview of the pope.

463
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 3: That's correct, And this is where the struggle is. Why

464
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 3: I object to polarization. Am I being polemical if I

465
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 3: enunciate the teaching of the church when there are many

466
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 3: people object to it? Of course not. Father James Martin

467
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: might say, well, you're polemical because you're saying the church

468
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: is teaching is unchangeable. Now I'm not being polemical, I'm

469
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 3: being Catholic. The Catholic Church does not present a program

470
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 3: like the Democrats and the Republicans do every four years

471
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: at their convention, one year the in favor of this,

472
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 3: then they flip. Now, that's not how we do it.

473
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: The Church's teaching on morality is based on the natural

474
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: law and divine revelation in the Old and New Testaments.

475
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 3: The Church is teaching on homosexuary has been consistent from

476
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: the beginning. There is no possibility of changing it. And

477
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 3: then when you say attitudes have to change, well, which attitude?

478
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 3: I'm happy when I hear church teaching because it confirms

479
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 3: me in my good instincts that there's an order in

480
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,239
Speaker 3: the world that God put there. If you say, well,

481
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 3: it's a bad attitude, because people who like to you know,

482
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 3: perform homosexual acts. They object because you say their acts

483
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 3: are bad. That's not an attitude. They're using emotional appeals

484
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 3: to try and silence people who make them feel bit Actually,

485
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 3: a bad conscience is one of the best things you

486
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: can have, because it's a reminder that you have a

487
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 3: duty to God. You know, the conscience, Newman said, the

488
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 3: conscience is the aboriginal vicar of Christ. It's God speaking

489
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 3: to you in a very mysterious way. So when I

490
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 3: give a sermon and up people are annoyed, you know,

491
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 3: as long as they didn't talk about something silly. Okay,

492
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 3: you know, but if I talked about Catholic morality, if

493
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 3: you're angry, I'm doing you a favorite because I'm making

494
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 3: you think.

495
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: Continuing with Popo Leo, he addressed the Diocese of Rome

496
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: recently at the latter in Basilica, and he encouraged the

497
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: clergy and the diocese to walk accompany the people in

498
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: a way that is quote supportive, empathetic, discreet, non judgmental,

499
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: and able to welcome everyone. Father is non judgmental attitudes

500
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: and welcoming people. Is that the new benchmark for the clergy.

501
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 3: This is again one of the areas where we have

502
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 3: we have a huge amount of confusion in the church.

503
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: You know, Christ said judge not lest you be judged,

504
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: but the context reveals it's condemned not because he also

505
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: said that is part of that section of the Gould

506
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: condemnation meaning you can't pass a final judgment on the

507
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 3: state of soul of someone you object to, but you

508
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: certainly can issue what we call fraternal correction and saying

509
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 3: your objective behavior violates the Gospels standards. So we have

510
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 3: to be judgmental.

511
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: Well, Bob, isn't isn't welcoming people and accompanying them, correcting

512
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: them as well.

513
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: I mean that's what Jesus did.

514
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: Jesus didn't say, hey, all your tax collectors and prostitutes,

515
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: let's do more of what you're doing. No, no, he

516
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: called them to something different and that was a companiment

517
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: and welcome too.

518
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 4: As my colleague Brad Miner wrote it, the Catholic thing

519
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 4: the other day, whatever happened to go and sin no more?

520
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 4: You know that ultimately, look and Leo says this in

521
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 4: the interview. He says, you know, we welcome everyone. And

522
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 4: the real meaning of totos totos totals everybody, everybody. Everybody

523
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 4: is not that we welcome you because you're a member

524
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 4: of this or that group or ethnicity or sexual orientation.

525
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 4: We welcome you because you're a child, or you're a

526
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 4: a son or daughter of God. And so God welcomes

527
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 4: everybody in, but he welcomes them to his world. He

528
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: doesn't welcome them into changing his world or you know,

529
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 4: redefining things or saying, you know, I was born in

530
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 4: the wrong body, so I have to transition into a

531
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 4: different gender. It's an entirely different way of thinking about

532
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 4: things that is typical in our democratic political discourse these days.

533
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 4: And I'm glad that Leo said that, although then we

534
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 4: get this other way of speaking about things that makes

535
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 4: it look like we can't judge and father, I think

536
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 4: it's exactly right that we can't judge people's ultimate salvation

537
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 4: or damnation. But even in that Jesuit discernment that Pope

538
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 4: Francis promoted during his entire papacy, you know, the watchword

539
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 4: is see judge act, So you know, you have to

540
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 4: see an objective situation. If you don't do that, what

541
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 4: are you You're just sort of a passive witness to

542
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 4: what's going on around you when you accept everything that's happening. Now,

543
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 4: you'd have to be a fool to be that sort of.

544
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: No, you're either diluted or crazy. Stirring up a bit

545
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: of controversy speaking of deluted and crazy. The decision was

546
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: made by the Chicago Archbishop, Cardinal Blaze Supage to honor

547
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: Illinois Senator Dick Durbin. Now Durbin is a lifelong Democrat.

548
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: They're granting him a quote Lifetime Achievement award from the

549
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: Archdiison Office of Human Dignity and Solidarity. Durbin's a Catholic

550
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: with a long history of defending abortion on demand, et cetera,

551
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: and he'll receive this award quote for his work with

552
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: immigrants at a November third fundraiser in Chicago. Remarkably, Bishop

553
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: Thomas Proprocki of Springfield, Illinois is condemning the move due

554
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: to Durbin's record, and Senator Durbin actually resides in Springfield

555
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: but considers Cardinal Supach in Chicago.

556
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: His bishop.

557
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: Archbishop Salvator Courdlioni of San Francisco, also weighed in supporting Paprocky.

558
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: Some have said Paprocki is threatening unity in the USCCB

559
00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: for taking this stand. Bob your.

560
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 4: You know, I used to go out to Chicago quite

561
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 4: a bit, and I was quite close with the previous cardinal, Archbishop,

562
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 4: Cardinal Francis George, and I used to push him about

563
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 4: Senator Durbin because Durbin obviously was one of the leaders

564
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 4: of one of the leaders of the Catholics who were

565
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 4: pro abortion, and I wanted him basically to take a

566
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 4: public stand against Senator Durbin, but he said that he

567
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 4: preferred to invite him in and to be pastoral with him. Now,

568
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 4: for me, that was not enough, because there was a

569
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: public offense, and it seemed to me that there needed

570
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 4: to be a public rebuke of what was going on.

571
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 4: But Cardinal George, a very intelligent man, a brave man

572
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: in many ways, had to deal with the politics of

573
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 4: Chicago and the politics of even his presbyterate in Chicago.

574
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 4: But there's a difference between taking a different approach to

575
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 4: somebody who's a public stumbling block, which is to say

576
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 4: he presents a scandal to the Catholic people and honorary

577
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 4: him with what is obviously a rationalization that he's good

578
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 4: on immigration. Well, gee, that's wonderful. He's good. He's so

579
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 4: called good on immigration. But in the meantime, how many

580
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 4: thousands of babies were never born, were killed in the

581
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 4: womb because of the political activities of Senator Durbin. To

582
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 4: call this a lifetime achievement and then to say that, actually,

583
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 4: I believe that the archbishop has also said that this

584
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 4: is a reaching out to the other side. I don't

585
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 4: know what kind of reaching out this is. This is

586
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 4: kind of a validation of people who say things in

587
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 4: public that are contrary to the Catholic faith. So look,

588
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 4: it's a tremendous scandal. I wish other bishops would weigh

589
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 4: in on this, not just Paproki and Cordolione. Unfortunately, I

590
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 4: don't think we're going to see this, But maybe a

591
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 4: new day we'll gone with an American pope in Rome

592
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 4: who may take a different view of things, and he's

593
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 4: from Chicago.

594
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Father Cardinal soupicch is defending the honor this way,

595
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: he said, at the heart of the consistent ethic of

596
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: life is the recognition that Catholic teaching on the life

597
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: and dignity cannot be reduced to a single issue, even

598
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: an issue as important as abortion. The annual celebration of

599
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: Immigrants Keep Hope Alive will recognize all the critically important

600
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 1: contributions Senator Durbin has taken to advance Catholic social teaching

601
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: in the areas of immigration, care for the poor, laudauto

602
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: c and world peace. Father, your reaction is that good enough?

603
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: Does that wash away all the other abortion objections?

604
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: Well, two answers. Number One, abortions of crime not an issue,

605
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 3: so that the language is very revelatory. Secondly, let's say

606
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: that so he says, Governor Senator Durbin's bad un abortion

607
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: good and immigration. Let's say it was the other way around.

608
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: Let's say he was against abortion both was in favor

609
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: of shooting immigrants who entered the country illegally and then

610
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 3: bearing them somewhere. Would he be given an honor if

611
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: that was his political stance, of course not. What this

612
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 3: does is minimize is the importance of abortion because the

613
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 3: Democratic Party is not interested in stopping abortion, and Dick Durbin,

614
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 3: as a loyal Democrat, is not going to buck that.

615
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 3: Me he probably believes that abortion's okay, he certainly votes

616
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 3: that way. Well, if that's what he thinks, the Catholic

617
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 3: Church has to step away and say, look, you are

618
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 3: not following the teaching of Christ, and therefore Christ representatives

619
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: earth are not going to honor you, because we're going

620
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 3: to send the message out to voters and everybody else.

621
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 3: The Catholic Church says it's against abortion, but it's not

622
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,959
Speaker 3: really against it because we honor the people who fund

623
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 3: and pay for it. So Cardinal Supik's decision is unthinkable

624
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 3: in the reign of Pious to twelve. Okay, never would happened. Now,

625
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 3: Pope Leo's got to step up and say, in the

626
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 3: reign of Pope Leo, are we going to allow Catholic

627
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 3: politician to be honored by Catholic card We have to

628
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 3: stop this.

629
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I looked it up. The Archdiocese of Chicago actually

630
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: has and Bob, you know this. It probably originated under

631
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: Cardinal Francis George. There's a long standing policy of not

632
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: granting awards to politicians who oppose Church moral teaching. This

633
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: would constitute a violation of Church moral teaching. I'll give

634
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: you the last word on this topic book.

635
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the Bishop's Conference as a whole has warned

636
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 4: against this as well, because look, we have enough confusion

637
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 4: already in the world about what a Catholics teach and

638
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: his father rightly says. People look at what you do.

639
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 4: If you say that you're against something or you're for something,

640
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 4: that's fine. They pay attention to it, they listen to

641
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 4: what you're saying. But if you then go to Washington

642
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 4: and what you do is you say, oh, well, look, personally,

643
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 4: I'm against abortion, but you people out there kill all

644
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 4: the babies you want. You know, it's a decision that

645
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 4: you have to make. I can't make that for you.

646
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 4: That's effectively what a lot of these Catholic politicians have

647
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 4: been doing for years. I applaud both Paproki and CORDOLIONI.

648
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 4: Cordalione has told Nancy Pelosi not to present herself for

649
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 4: communion in the Archdiocese of San Francisco, which was a

650
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 4: courageous thing to do, because we know what the social

651
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 4: environment is like out there in San Francisco and the

652
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 4: power that she wields, and we need some more bishops

653
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 4: to step up that way and take the hit. You know,

654
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 4: it's not going to be pretty, but if you're going

655
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 4: to be a Catholic bishop, be a Catholic bishop.

656
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: This is a rather odd story.

657
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 1: Pope Leo delivered a video message to a mixed faith

658
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: audience in his native Chicago. Again we're back in Chicago.

659
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: This was before an als walk for life.

660
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: Galla watch.

661
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 5: Our Jewish brothers and sisters tell us that one of

662
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 5: the great projects given the human family by God is

663
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 5: to complete and perfect the very good creation given us

664
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 5: tikun olam. As our Muslim friends share in Dahadid, we

665
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 5: are told that seventy thousand angels are present when caretakers

666
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 5: arrive in the morning, seventy thousand other angels arrive.

667
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 3: In the evening.

668
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 5: I believe that you two are angels. I pray that

669
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 5: rather than being possessed by frustration or hopelessness or despair,

670
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 5: you surrender yourself to the mystery of human existence, to

671
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 5: the love of your caregivers, and to the embrace of

672
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 5: the Divine One.

673
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: Father. Your thoughts on the language used there? Obviously the

674
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: posts trying to be inclusive, But no, Jesus, just the Divine.

675
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: One, the Divine One. Yes, sternly God is divine, so

676
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 3: he is the Divine One. But that's not the usual

677
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 3: language that we use. We use the Holy Trinity. We

678
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 3: speak about the incarnate Son of God. It's all good.

679
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: I agree with him that we have to promote works

680
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 3: of charity and love, and religious differences don't absolve us

681
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 3: of the obligation to love our neighbor. So of course

682
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: that's all to the good. But you know, using this

683
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 3: kind of errendousis language. I don't like that. In fact,

684
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 3: I've noted that over the years, whenever Catholics have ecumenical meetings,

685
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 3: they tend not to use the name of the Fathers

686
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 3: on Holy Spirit if they're for inter religious people present.

687
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 3: That's a mistake. We should always start everything in the

688
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 3: Catholic Church in the name of the Holy Trinity.

689
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, you know, it didn't disturb me that he

690
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: quote quoted, you know, Jewish teachings and Muslim teachings, but

691
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: the natural follow on is and Jesus teaches us xyz.

692
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. At a time when even many Catholics don't know

693
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 4: our own tradition sometimes I mean people in the public

694
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 4: eye as I often am. I'm sure you are, Raymond.

695
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 4: To you, you're shocked at what how little our Catholics

696
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 4: actually know, or how they've been misinformed by just the

697
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 4: atmosphere around us in the way that the media tended

698
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 4: to start with the church is about It would be

699
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 4: great to quote from the Gospels, you know, and say

700
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 4: that we believe that what our Lord has told us

701
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 4: is the culmination of all these good impulses that exist

702
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 4: in other religious traditions. To do that, of course, again,

703
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 4: to put yourself in the cross here is. But if

704
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 4: you're unwilling to do that, you're not really willing to

705
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 4: stand up for Jesus. And I think Leo wants to

706
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 4: do that. We see that in the interview he emphasizes

707
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 4: that quite a bit.

708
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: There's another aspect of the interview, this Crux interview, where

709
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: he said, quote, it's very difficult to discover the presence

710
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: of God in artificial intelligence.

711
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 2: Leo recently refused to allow the creation.

712
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: Of a personal avatar of himself, so you know, this

713
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 1: technology is weighing heavily on his mind. Father, your thoughts

714
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: about AI and the implications.

715
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's a very important question for mankind to

716
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 3: figure out how we're going to legally frame the use

717
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 3: of this new tool, you know, in the scientific toolbox,

718
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 3: and it's very important that it not be used for

719
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 3: evil purposes. And the Pope is absolutely right about that.

720
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 3: On the other hand, yeah, it is a very useful tool,

721
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 3: and the Pope says it in the interview. I was

722
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: pleased said in medical operations, you know, when you're doing surgery,

723
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 3: artificial intelligence can be very useful, you know, and cancer research,

724
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 3: artificial intelligence can view cells much more quickly and thoroughly

725
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 3: than the human eye or the mechanism. So for me,

726
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: I'm not a scientist. I fascinated when things, you know, develop,

727
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 3: but I don't know enough to tell people what to do.

728
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 3: But I do know as a canon lawyer with a

729
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: legal mind. Governments that want to do justice must regulate

730
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 3: this so that you don't have AI activities promoting crime

731
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 3: and harm to people and legal drug use and all

732
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 3: this kind of stuff.

733
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

734
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: Ed Pendons reporting our correspondent friend in Rome this week

735
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: that Pope Leo has received African Cardinal.

736
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: Robert Sarah in a private audience.

737
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: The details of the meeting remained private, but in a

738
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: recent interview, Cardinal Sarah said he was looking with great

739
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: confidence to Leo's pontificate. He wishes fiducia suplicans. That was

740
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: the document under Pope Francis that allowed gave marriages and

741
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: relationships to be blessed. Cardinal Sarah says that document should

742
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: be forgotten. Sarah's praised Leo's focus on Christ, his spirit

743
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: of listening, dialogue, prudent consideration of tradition. He also is

744
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: called into question the crackdown on the traditional Latin mask.

745
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Bob on this audience and what it might yield.

746
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wish we had some more detail about this,

747
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 4: because obviously, when a figure like Father James Martin, who's

748
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 4: a darling of the mainstream media, meets with the Pope

749
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 4: he immediately, that immediately gets broadcast everywhere, and the spin

750
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,479
Speaker 4: starts as if all you know, Popolio is getting weak,

751
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 4: he's pro LGBT. I think he's already laid down some

752
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 4: markers at the reset. The receiving of LGBT is going

753
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 4: to be on Catholic principles. But I hope we'll see

754
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 4: more of that in the future. Meanwhile, when someone like

755
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 4: Cardinal Burke meets with the Pope and he's going to

756
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 4: be doing a high light and Mass in Saint Peter's

757
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 4: Basilica in a few weeks, or Cardinal Sarah, who is

758
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 4: one of the deepest, deepest spirits we have among the

759
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 4: hierarchy of the church. When they meet, we don't get

760
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 4: the same kind of media buzz. We don't get the

761
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 4: sense of there's something else bubbling up in the church.

762
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 4: And so I'm encouraged that on the one hand, there's

763
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 4: going to be this opening to the traditional Latin Mass,

764
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 4: and on the other hand that Popolio was willing to

765
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 4: spend enough time with Cardinal Sarah, who we probably knows

766
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 4: is a wise counselor and a deep spirit who he

767
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 4: would be wise to listen carefully to so let's hope

768
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 4: that that develops over the future and it begins to

769
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 4: manifest itself in how the church has seen publicly.

770
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: Well, this is also the emerging church. I mean, this

771
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: is the only font of ordinations and real growth we're

772
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: seeing in the church. It's there, it's in Africa. Some

773
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: cultural news I need to get to, both related to

774
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: the assassination of Charlie Kirk and its aftermath. In the

775
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: wake of the tragedy, late night host Jimmy Kimmel was

776
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: suspended then reinstated days later for comments he made regarding

777
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: the assassination. He tried to say that the MAGA and

778
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: the Conservatives were somehow to blame for this murderer, and

779
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: then the aftermath was characterized as an active censorship. Was

780
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: it an active censorship, father or government censorship?

781
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 3: As far as I can see, the government nothing to

782
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: do with it. It's the management and ownership of that network

783
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 3: that did.

784
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 5: So.

785
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 3: You know, the very people who get upset when a

786
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: businessman shuts down a failing enterprise or something that brings

787
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 3: discredit on the business. You know, wait a minute, that's

788
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 3: not your business. You don't own it, you're not invested

789
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 3: in it. So businessmen can do what they want, and

790
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: it's up to them to you know, fight it in

791
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 3: court if it gets sued by the person they remove.

792
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, I have to get to this and then

793
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: I'll get father's reaction as well. The memorial for Charlie

794
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: Kirk was held at Cardinals Stadium in Phoenix before a

795
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: near capacity crowd. Millions of people looked in. His widow,

796
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: Erica Kirk, delivered an emotional, very powerful remarks about her

797
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 1: late husband and the movement he started, his faith and

798
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: notably missus. Kirk declared that she had forgiven her husband's killer.

799
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Bob on that event and its effects.

800
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I watched that with my wife and the

801
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 4: two of us had tears in her eyes when she

802
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 4: said that, because it was clearly something that she struggled

803
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 4: to be able to say. And God bless her. Your

804
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 4: husband and is just dead in a horrible fashion. This

805
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 4: unfortunately deluded young man who gets sucked into left wing

806
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 4: politics and the whole trans ideology thing shoots your husband

807
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 4: and you go and you stand up in front of

808
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 4: not only those twenty thousand people in the stadium itself,

809
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 4: but millions of people all around the world. I got

810
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 4: a note from a priest who told me that he

811
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 4: was talking with a priest in I think Zayir, and

812
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 4: this priest is out in the wilds evangelizing, and everybody

813
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 4: is talking about Charlie Kirk. I mean, it's just amazing

814
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 4: the way that the story went out around the world.

815
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 3: But that's what.

816
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 4: We're called to do. I mean, Jesus says, forgive your enemies,

817
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 4: pray for them.

818
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: You know.

819
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 4: I've written two books about martyrs, and one of the

820
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 4: things that's always struck me about martyrs is the way

821
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 4: that even at the point when they've got the gun

822
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 4: pointing at them, or they're about to be killed in

823
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 4: some other fashion, very few of them apostasize, and almost

824
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 4: all of them are there praying and forgiving the people

825
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 4: who were about to kill them. So look to me.

826
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 4: As many people have said, it was a kind of

827
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 4: a Protestant evangelical event in terms of the affect of it, Yes,

828
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 4: but that was really a culminating moment and maybe for

829
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 4: the Christianity in the United States, a turning point in

830
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 4: and of itself.

831
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: The Father I have to say, I was at a

832
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: football game watch party, okay, and the game was so

833
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: bad they flipped on the Charlie Kirk memorial. You had

834
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: men who know, these guys who don't practice faith at all,

835
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: tears in their eyes, some of them saying they had

836
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 1: just opened the Bible for the first time in their lives.

837
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: After Charlie Kirk was assassinated. And this moment clearly had

838
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: an effect on young men in particular.

839
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: For whatever reason, what are you seeing or hearing?

840
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think to the words of scripture, where

841
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 3: sin has abounded, grace has abounded even more. I mean,

842
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 3: what Charlie's wife did was a manifestation of her deep

843
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 3: and love of God. We are called to forgive those

844
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 3: who persecute us, and she did it. In this Bob

845
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 3: said to millions and millions of people with great confidence

846
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: and love, this is how the world gets converted. This

847
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 3: is why martyrs and those that you know are associated

848
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 3: with the family members and friends. This is why they

849
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 3: have such an influence on the world. I mean, look,

850
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 3: you mentioned Jimmy Laie earlier. Jimmy Laie is a Catholic convert.

851
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 3: You know, who's an elderly man at this point in

852
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 3: an on air conditioned cell who is being persecuted precisely

853
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 3: because he upholds what Christ said, you know, the freedom

854
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 3: of the sons of God. That's an inspiration. I every

855
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 3: day I think about Jimmy and I say, this is

856
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: I'm so happy that we have people like that in

857
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 3: the world, and I had you know, the Kirk family

858
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 3: now becomes one of the most important historical figures in

859
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 3: the history of the United States because they exemplify what

860
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 3: Christianity means to this country. It's the bedrock of how

861
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: we treat each other.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's curious.

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Speaker 1: Trump was at the UN after that event and he

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Speaker 1: said no country can survive without law, borders, and religion.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was an interesting adenda there, which you

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Speaker 1: don't often hear at the UN. So that was pretty telling.

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Speaker 1: Even Trump has been moved by this event.

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Speaker 2: Gents, we're gonna leave it there.

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Speaker 1: Grateful to you all as always, and look, if you

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00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: want more of the Royal Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to

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00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube the Royal Grande Podcast

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00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: wherever you get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father

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00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: Gerald Murray. Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course,

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00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: follow the light.

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00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 2: I'm ready at Arroyo We'll see you next time.

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00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and

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00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 1: is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get

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00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 1: your podcasts.

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00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 4: ITS book A practice plish