Speaker 1: I love podcast fans.
Speaker 2: Today it's me James, and I'm joined by Cave Hoder,
Speaker 2: who's a doctor in the Bay Area and also host
Speaker 2: of the House of Pod podcast, which an extent podcast
Speaker 2: for you to add to what you've done listening this podcast,
Speaker 2: you can add that to your podcast rotation. But we're
Speaker 2: talking today about medication abortions, and specifically about attempts to
Speaker 2: ban medigation abortions by anti abortion activists, which included a
Speaker 2: recent case at the Supreme Court. So, Cave, would you
Speaker 2: maybe like to add anything I'd missed from your introduction?
Speaker 3: No, yeah, that was pretty much all the good stuff.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. This is super fun. I
Speaker 3: love all your podcasts. I like your work, so thank
Speaker 3: you for having me. And yeah, the topic is it.
Speaker 3: It's super duper duper important and it is in the
Speaker 3: headlines a lot, but at the same time not enough,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. If like, people are talking
Speaker 3: about it a ton, but I don't know if they're
Speaker 3: talking about it enough, or if the gravity of the
Speaker 3: situation is really hitting people, or if it is we're
Speaker 3: just overwhelmed by how much bullshit we've had to deal
Speaker 3: with in regard to this. If people are kind of
Speaker 3: feeling a little bit beaten about it and feeling a
Speaker 3: little bit disheartened, But I am super glad that we're
Speaker 3: going to discuss it today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think maybe it is bizarre, how I don't
Speaker 2: you know, I think we're dealing with so much bullshit
Speaker 2: and every day something terrible happens, and so I can
Speaker 2: understand how this kind of came and went in the
Speaker 2: news cycle. At the same time, it does seem like,
Speaker 2: why the fuck were They're not ten million people out
Speaker 2: in the street trying to burn things down when like, like,
Speaker 2: if you're listening to this and you don't think you
Speaker 2: know anyone who's used this, it's most likely because someone
Speaker 2: in your life hasn't shared that with you. Like I
Speaker 2: can think of more people than I can count on
Speaker 2: my fingers who I care about very dearly, who have
Speaker 2: used absolutely.
Speaker 3: Someone posted this once and I thought it was really
Speaker 3: actually pretty brilliant. It was like, if you don't know
Speaker 3: anyone that has, that means they don't trust you enough
Speaker 3: to tell you, or they think you're a douche. So
Speaker 3: like there's a there's a reason, you know. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's very.
Speaker 2: Common, right, And so I think maybe to start out with,
Speaker 2: we should explain, like what is a medication abortion and
Speaker 2: how does it work and why is it so common.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about that. I think
Speaker 3: maybe we could touch a little bit on the history
Speaker 3: of it too, because I think it is kind of
Speaker 3: interesting to look at it from a bigger perspective and
Speaker 3: medication abortions, they account for more than half of all
Speaker 3: abortions nationwide. It's usually done. There are a couple of
Speaker 3: different ways of doing it, but the most common one
Speaker 3: by far is a two drug combination mif for prostone
Speaker 3: and misoprostal, and these are the ones. They are used
Speaker 3: generally in the United States and in other countries as well.
Speaker 3: You can use mister prostal alone, but it's just not
Speaker 3: as effective as these two drugs together. MIF of prostone
Speaker 3: blocks progesterone and what that is. It's a hormone that
Speaker 3: you need to make the pregnancy happen. It makes the
Speaker 3: uterus a hospitable place for it to occur. And we'll
Speaker 3: talk a little bit. I think about the misso the
Speaker 3: mifa prostone, try the misoprostol as well, because that's a
Speaker 3: prostac landing and they do a bunch of things in
Speaker 3: the body, but one of them is to cause contractions
Speaker 3: of the uterus. In that that's two these two drugs together.
Speaker 3: One makes the pregnancy less able to progress and then
Speaker 3: the other one expels it. So that's how these two
Speaker 3: medications work. What I think is really interesting about them
Speaker 3: is a little bit of the backstory to it. So
Speaker 3: my understanding. Then there might be some medical anthropologists or
Speaker 3: historians who know more about it than me. I'm sure
Speaker 3: that's the case, but it's you have to put the
Speaker 3: song perspective because when I grew up, abortions were all invasive,
Speaker 3: surgical essentially, and it was a you had to have
Speaker 3: it done in a very specific manner. Now we have
Speaker 3: the opportunity and the option to do it in a
Speaker 3: much I think, safer, control, less traumatic way. And you know,
Speaker 3: it kind of started in Brazil because in Brazil, you know,
Speaker 3: I know, because it doesn't make sense, right, but abortion
Speaker 3: is illegal there, as you might imagine, and women there,
Speaker 3: like women in any place, are going to look for
Speaker 3: ways to have abortions if they want or need one.
Speaker 3: And one of the things they would do is it
Speaker 3: basically go to like a drug store or a pharmacy
Speaker 3: and they would look for medications that said beware, this
Speaker 3: could cause abortions. That's that's one of the ways this
Speaker 3: all started. One of those was mister prostal that medication
Speaker 3: I mentioned, that's a prostaglandin Again, prostal glands do a
Speaker 3: lot of things. I'm a gi doctor by trade, and
Speaker 3: you know from my perspective, they're also used for treatment
Speaker 3: of ulcers, not really something we go to that much
Speaker 3: or anymore, but there are other uses for it. And
Speaker 3: so they found that it could cause these contractions of
Speaker 3: the uterus and they would use it there for that purpose.
Speaker 3: The French were actually the ones that worked on mifiprostone
Speaker 3: or RU four eighty six, and that's the one that
Speaker 3: blocks the progesterone and stops the pregnancy from progressing. So
Speaker 3: the background, I think is really interesting and how far
Speaker 3: it's come during this time. You know, how it started
Speaker 3: when our use here, to how it changed during COVID,
Speaker 3: I think is a really fascinating thing. And where we're
Speaker 3: at now with these medications. I can't we're gonna talk
Speaker 3: about it. I'm sorry. I don't want to jump ahead,
Speaker 3: but I'm just so I'm so upset and I know
Speaker 3: I should be at this point in my life much
Speaker 3: more used to like these weirdly cynical bs moves of
Speaker 3: a republic in judge or whatever promoting this as being
Speaker 3: a safety issue. I know I shouldn't be surprised and
Speaker 3: upset by it, but I am. And that's the part
Speaker 3: that really bothers me right now is the argument they're
Speaker 3: using against it is so bullshit and cymical that I
Speaker 3: and again I don't think enough people are talking about it.
Speaker 2: No, it is like I'm the same way, like I
Speaker 2: should be. A lot of my work has been border reporting,
Speaker 2: and like I should by now be Like, no, I shouldn't,
Speaker 2: because those people are fucking terrible. Like there's a group
Speaker 2: of journalists who just seem to have lost their capacity
Speaker 2: to care for other human beings and can report on
Speaker 2: human suffering without taking any toll on their on their
Speaker 2: personal mental health, and they congregate on various Facebook groups
Speaker 2: and in bars and expensive hotels or around the world,
Speaker 2: and I don't like that. But like, similarly, a number
Speaker 2: of conservative conservatives around word like anti immigration States used
Speaker 2: to title forty two. They soon to keep Title forty
Speaker 2: two right, citing the risk of COVID nineteen from migrants
Speaker 2: crossing our borders. And these are the same fucking people
Speaker 2: who have been like, we don't want to wear masks,
Speaker 2: we shouldn't have vaccine mandates like it. Yeah, it is
Speaker 2: infuriating that they can't just be like, yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: think you should have the right to bodily autonomy, and
Speaker 2: I don't care how I get there, so I'm just
Speaker 2: going to use this troll ass methodology.
Speaker 3: It bothers me that there were doctors involved in this case,
Speaker 3: the court case, and it does bother me that there
Speaker 3: are doctors that are fighting this. I mean, I get it.
Speaker 3: If not every doctor wants to do an abortion, I
Speaker 3: totally understand that. But to not stand for a woman's
Speaker 3: autonomy over her own body is the part that I
Speaker 3: can't get. I mean, it's like it's I'm not an
Speaker 3: ethicist by any means, but that's like the bare minimum
Speaker 3: is like you're supposed to believe in someone's autonomy over
Speaker 3: there themselves, and the fact that it's being removed piece
Speaker 3: by piece it should be bothering doctors who are who
Speaker 3: are supposed to be following ethics, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: So I'm also a little bit from that end, I'm
Speaker 3: mad at our own I'm mad at our own people,
Speaker 3: I'm mad at doctors, and I am on my little
Speaker 3: echo chamber in Twitter, where there's lots of doctors who
Speaker 3: feel the same way I do, and I hear from them,
Speaker 3: but I know that it's kind of there alone. I'm
Speaker 3: not hearing it from other doctors out in the real world,
Speaker 3: you know, and not enough at least.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should explain a little bit that, like the
Speaker 2: original case, the complainants were doctors, right, who were claiming
Speaker 2: that they were having to treat complications that arose from
Speaker 2: medication abortion.
Speaker 1: Is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're a part of it. I don't know how
Speaker 3: big a part of it, or if they're just used
Speaker 3: because they're like a lot of times people, for good
Speaker 3: or bad reasons, will bring a doctor out in a
Speaker 3: white coat at like a press conference, which is like,
Speaker 3: you know, like we're just wearing white coats all the time,
Speaker 3: you know, and just the sand in the background and
Speaker 3: sort of add some sort of weight to the argument.
Speaker 3: And so I don't know how much of it was
Speaker 3: that in this situation, but I mean, the argument that
Speaker 3: they're making that these medications are not safe just it's
Speaker 3: a silly argument. I mean, we know that the mortality
Speaker 3: rate for medical abortion is less dramatically than the mortality
Speaker 3: rate for childbirth, and that changes too depending on if
Speaker 3: you're like a white woman in a wealthy neighborhood or
Speaker 3: a black woman. There's different mortality rates, but pretty much
Speaker 3: across the board, it's going to be safer. I mean,
Speaker 3: the chance of a serious complication is there. It can
Speaker 3: happen any medication. It can happen penicillin, it can happen
Speaker 3: higher rates. By the way, viagra. When viagra came out,
Speaker 3: there was the first year it came out, there was
Speaker 3: about five hundred and fifty deaths from viagra. I mean,
Speaker 3: granted the cardiovascular problems patients had, whatever, but still there
Speaker 3: was a if not without risk. You don't see any
Speaker 3: judge from Texas, you know, coming out to talk about
Speaker 3: viagra being an issue. No.
Speaker 2: I think you're right to, isihlate that, like being pregnant
Speaker 2: is also a risk, and much greater risk in many cases,
Speaker 2: especially like you said, because of these different intersectional things
Speaker 2: which can make it a greater risk for some people.
Speaker 2: So I would love to talk about why these became
Speaker 2: more Popular's the wrong way, but maybe more widely used
Speaker 2: to facilitate abortions during COVID because that's super interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the long and the short of it is
Speaker 3: when they first started doing these tasks. But I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: when they first started doing these medication abortions, there was
Speaker 3: a bit of a process that had to go into it,
Speaker 3: Like doctors were worried. I mean, we're always conservative. Doctors
Speaker 3: are always conservative. We always start with like probably more than
Speaker 3: it's absolutely necessary, and then over time we do enough research,
Speaker 3: we get enough like evidence behind us that we can
Speaker 3: peel back parts of it. So when it first started,
Speaker 3: you know, people wanted ultrasounds, lab tests make sure that
Speaker 3: they weren't people weren't a mnemic or didn't have a
Speaker 3: risk of bleeding. They wanted to make sure the livers
Speaker 3: were okay. Labs are probably weren't totally necessary. The ultrasound,
Speaker 3: I think scared people a lot. Or people really wanted
Speaker 3: there always be an ultraound just to make sure there
Speaker 3: wasn't like an ectopic pregnancy or a pregnancy, or it
Speaker 3: doesn't occur where it's supposed to outside of where we
Speaker 3: expected to and those can be dangerous and if you
Speaker 3: do take these medications. You know, obviously you're going to
Speaker 3: be a bit more of a risk if you don't
Speaker 3: If you don't know, that's an ectopic pregnancy. So there
Speaker 3: was a lot of a lot of things that people
Speaker 3: had to do back then. Then then started to peel
Speaker 3: away slowly, like doctors might were starting to be like,
Speaker 3: all right, do I really need to get liver tests
Speaker 3: if I'm going to give this patient a medicational abortion,
Speaker 3: And those tests started to peel off slowly, And then
Speaker 3: when COVID happened, basically people weren't able to go to
Speaker 3: the doctor as much or as easily. Either weren't doctor
Speaker 3: offices or or open. It was harder for people to
Speaker 3: get to in the beginning, you know, and it only
Speaker 3: got harder with COVID. So the ACLU actually sued the
Speaker 3: FDA and they actually won, and through that that women
Speaker 3: did have to come in anymore for these They could
Speaker 3: all be done via like teleconference or a video chat basically, okay,
Speaker 3: so which is a big game changer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes it much easier. And so
Speaker 2: it used to be the case at least, so you
Speaker 2: could get these things in the mail right particulably, After
Speaker 2: some kind of teleconference or video chat. Is that still
Speaker 2: Is that still the case in states where there isn't
Speaker 2: like the strictest kind of abortion ban or is it universal?
Speaker 3: No, it's my understanding it's still as of now possible.
Speaker 3: It's still available. You're supposed to be able to do it.
Speaker 3: I think we're going to find that it's becoming more difficult.
Speaker 3: We're already seeing cases. I mean, they've been highlighted on
Speaker 3: on social media. How often they're happening now, I don't know,
Speaker 3: but there we see cases now of you know, a
Speaker 3: pharmacist not fulfilling medical abortion pills, and in the comments
Speaker 3: section when you look at why why not, they're saying
Speaker 3: because is now banned by a federal judge. So, I
Speaker 3: mean it's not true it was. The Supreme Court has
Speaker 3: you know, has okayed it for now. I mean for
Speaker 3: now it's still okay and allowed. But there's going to
Speaker 3: be enough confusion about it. There's going to be enough
Speaker 3: worry about it that people are going to have a
Speaker 3: harder time doing it, getting it, or even finding, you know,
Speaker 3: people that are willing to do it. At this point,
Speaker 3: there's probably a lot of concern from patients and medical providers,
Speaker 3: so you know, even though it is technically still allowed,
Speaker 3: I mean I don't know how for how long you know,
Speaker 3: I am worried. And also I don't know if this
Speaker 3: is really hindered you know, people being able to access this,
Speaker 3: and I think it probably is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly hasn't made it smoother.
Speaker 2: As you said, right that it only takes you know,
Speaker 2: one person to have delay of a number of weeks
Speaker 2: or whatever, and it might not be an option or
Speaker 2: it might.
Speaker 1: Not be as safe.
Speaker 2: And how do you know how how far along these
Speaker 2: these medical medication abortions are like generally advised.
Speaker 3: You know, the medication abortions are considered safe in the
Speaker 3: second and I think even parts of the third trimester,
Speaker 3: but generally after the first trimester is when it's it's
Speaker 3: considered a little bit more dangerous and most medical professionals
Speaker 3: would want you to come in to have it done.
Speaker 3: So I mean that's my understanding. I'm not obigian, I
Speaker 3: should make that clear, but I think for for the
Speaker 3: most part, within the first trimester, people generally consider that's
Speaker 3: something that's manageable at home. Outside of that, I think
Speaker 3: you're probably more likely to have the medical professional want
Speaker 3: you to come in and see them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense, and in some states it's going
Speaker 2: to be a lot harder, if not impossible, or countries
Speaker 2: like I know, for instance, I've come across groups in
Speaker 2: Myanmar were distributing these drugs. Abortion has been illegal, they're
Speaker 2: more or less for since British colonial rule, since it
Speaker 2: was United as a sort of state, not really a nation.
Speaker 2: It's been a it's been illegal. They've sort of made
Speaker 2: some moves towards it being less illegal, and then obviously
Speaker 2: with the with the coup, it's become more illegal again,
Speaker 2: and people there have been There was a website up
Speaker 2: in the twenty twenty one about how they facilitated mutual
Speaker 2: aid distribution of it, which I found super interesting, and
Speaker 2: then at some point they obviously that that must have
Speaker 2: got them some heat and they took it down. But
Speaker 2: it's used all over the world in places where people
Speaker 2: don't have access to care, right alongside being used here
Speaker 2: where people may or may not have access to care,
Speaker 2: which is pretty fun out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's funny that, like, you know, we're
Speaker 3: comparing ourselves. I mean, it's you would think twenty twenty
Speaker 3: three we wouldn't be you know, looking to other countries
Speaker 3: to guide us at this point. You would hopefully we
Speaker 3: would have figured this out by ourselves after everything. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny you look at the historical you
Speaker 3: look at it from a global perspective, it is interesting.
Speaker 3: It's really a global effort to try and get these
Speaker 3: medications out to people. One of the major major companies
Speaker 3: that sends these pills and mails these pills is in Europe,
Speaker 3: and they try to get them to other countries. It
Speaker 3: is sort of a global effort at this point to
Speaker 3: try which is kind of cool. That's one good thing
Speaker 3: about this. It shows you that most of the world
Speaker 3: seems to be on board with this, whether or not
Speaker 3: governments are or not. You know, I hear eighty percent
Speaker 3: here in the United States is it's for it. I mean,
Speaker 3: I think that sounds about right, you know. And the
Speaker 3: fact that there's so many people in the country and
Speaker 3: then the world trying to figure out ways to get
Speaker 3: these medications to people. That's one, I guess, sort of
Speaker 3: reaffirming thing about this.
Speaker 2: It's impressive to see people just doing grassroots mutual laid
Speaker 2: One thing that was very popular around the time of
Speaker 2: the Dub's decision a lot of people were showing these
Speaker 2: videos on do it yourself abortion pills or like homemade.
Speaker 2: I think it was misaprostal, it may have been both.
Speaker 2: It may have been mith for Bristowe as well. Obviously,
Speaker 2: like this is empowering and like we want people to
Speaker 2: be empowered to make ostigions about their own body. But
Speaker 2: perhaps you could explain why, like it it's also suboptimal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's it is definitely suboptimal. I mean
Speaker 3: I'm not every time I say something like that, there's
Speaker 3: always some corner of the Internet that's like, well, you're
Speaker 3: a shill for big farm or you're like part of
Speaker 3: the medical industry or whatever, and yeah, sure whatever, But
Speaker 3: I mean it is it's a risk. I mean, these medications,
Speaker 3: like I said, they're safe, but they're not without risk.
Speaker 3: You know, there are things that can occur when you
Speaker 3: have this are contradications to some of these medications, Like
Speaker 3: there's contradications to mif aprostone, like ectopic pregnancy like I mentioned.
Speaker 3: And you can get that worked up to be evaluated,
Speaker 3: or you can at least have the very basic questionnaire
Speaker 3: filled out that would help at least give you the
Speaker 3: hint if it's there, chronic adrenal failure, porphyria, inherited porphyria.
Speaker 3: These are things that are that doctors who do this
Speaker 3: think about and know and as part of the process
Speaker 3: to get these medications, even if it's just a questionnaire
Speaker 3: that you fill out online. So there are risks. There
Speaker 3: are bad things that can have happened with these medications,
Speaker 3: as there are with penicillin. Like I mentioned, I've seen
Speaker 3: people with, you know, life threatening allergies to to penicillin.
Speaker 3: I've seen people with who have liver failure from basic
Speaker 3: stuff that you know people take all the time, like
Speaker 3: tail and all. So you know, it's it's It does
Speaker 3: make me very nervous, and I like, do it yourself
Speaker 3: is I like that that people are trying to find
Speaker 3: ways around it. But and I hope we never get
Speaker 3: to a place where this is that's absolutely necessary. I hope,
Speaker 3: you know, but I understand why people are curious about
Speaker 3: it and why you're looking into it and reading about it.
Speaker 3: I obviously I'm not going to ever really promote do
Speaker 3: it yourself medicine to that Farbard degree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like at someone I use insulin every day, right,
Speaker 2: and people have been making their own insulin I've seen
Speaker 2: on the internet for for a long time, and I
Speaker 2: find it super fascinating. Intern also costs fuckle to produce,
Speaker 2: like like a cup of sense, and it costs hundreds
Speaker 2: of dollars to buy. Folks can accuse me of being
Speaker 2: a show for Big Farmer, but I have plenty of
Speaker 2: publications pointing in the other direction.
Speaker 3: You and me both, brother, Yeah, yeah, look at us,
Speaker 3: two guys just breaking in the pharma dough.
Speaker 1: That's it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's why I'm recording in this shed provided
Speaker 2: by FISA. No, and yeah, there is. These things are
Speaker 2: not expensive to make, they shouldn't be expensive to buy,
Speaker 2: and they can be had extremely safely. And the things
Speaker 2: that are stopping you from accessing them cheaply and safely
Speaker 2: and easily politicians and also pharmaceutical companies sometimes.
Speaker 3: You know. That's the funny thing too, is that you
Speaker 3: think for like, these right wingers are always talking about
Speaker 3: like relaxing regulations and whatever. It's like, I wonder if
Speaker 3: they recognize that on some level, what this is doing
Speaker 3: is it's just going to impinge on you know, quote
Speaker 3: unquote innovation in pharma. Like if you're a farm company
Speaker 3: and you're thinking about some medication that could be used
Speaker 3: for this, or you're thinking about creating a new medication
Speaker 3: for something that could, in the slightest way be deemed
Speaker 3: inappropriate by some judge somewhere. And then if they're making
Speaker 3: the decision, not the FDA, Like if you're a farm industry,
Speaker 3: you may be like, it screwed. I'm not going to
Speaker 3: worry about that medication at all. You know, nothing else.
Speaker 3: This is going to cut back on innovation in pharmacy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like anything with a contry indication for being pregnant
Speaker 2: would be vulnerable to this. Right, we should probably explain
Speaker 2: that the use of myth of pristone as an abortion
Speaker 2: drug was approved by the FDA in an expedited process, right,
Speaker 2: and that was what was being challenged. Can you explain
Speaker 2: why although it's faster, that doesn't mean it's any less thorough.
Speaker 2: In my understanding, I might be wrong, the FDA went like, yeah,
Speaker 2: fuck it, let's give it a try and see what happens.
Speaker 3: No, I mean it's a very good question. I mean
Speaker 3: we do have safety data behind it. So again, you're
Speaker 3: exactly right. This is not done in a vacuum. It's
Speaker 3: not done haphazardly. I mean there is there still always
Speaker 3: is a pretty strict process to go through for these medications.
Speaker 3: It kind of it's the same thing that we had
Speaker 3: to deal with with operation warp speed one of the
Speaker 3: worst names are a very important medical advancement. So, you know,
Speaker 3: people like, how can these things be safe? It's happened
Speaker 3: so quickly, and it's not really true. I mean, there
Speaker 3: is years of research behind all these things. There's years
Speaker 3: of research behind it. There was a study from the
Speaker 3: Newly Journal of Medicine about the safety of these abortion pills.
Speaker 3: It had been studied worldwide. It had been looked at
Speaker 3: for a while. You know, because abortion is so common
Speaker 3: and there are so many of so many done that
Speaker 3: it makes it easier to see the results. It makes
Speaker 3: it easier to see the numbers. Part of the reason
Speaker 3: we were able to follow COVID so well and get
Speaker 3: information so quickly was because it was everywhere, and when
Speaker 3: it's everywhere, it does raise the numbers. It makes it
Speaker 3: easier to get people enrolled in the study, it makes
Speaker 3: it easier to make a study happen. So that's kind
Speaker 3: of what was happening here. This is something that was
Speaker 3: there wasn't a lot of question about again, are there
Speaker 3: risks to the medication. Absolutely, there's risks to every single
Speaker 3: medication that you get. I mean, I've heard toxicologists say
Speaker 3: that if thailandol had to go through the same vetting
Speaker 3: process that we have medications go through today, that thialanol
Speaker 3: wouldn't make the cut. Wow. And as a liver specialist myself,
Speaker 3: I can attest to that. I mean, how talanol is
Speaker 3: a great medication if it's used correctly, but I've also
Speaker 3: seen it cause a lot of liver failure. It's a
Speaker 3: very common cause of it. So there's there's a pretty
Speaker 3: strict and there always is a pretty strict method to
Speaker 3: to the FDA when it comes to this sort of thing.
Speaker 2: It's not done haphazardly, right, And I think most of
Speaker 2: the people attacking it and not attacking it from a
Speaker 2: place of deep concern for the health of people who
Speaker 2: can get pregnant. It's quite the opposite. It's an attempt
Speaker 2: to control people's bodies, right, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're not. These are the same people. They're not
Speaker 3: concerned about the fact that the mortality rate in like
Speaker 3: African American women who are pregnant is so much higher.
Speaker 3: They'll never hear them talk about that. They don't give
Speaker 3: a damn unless, of course, they want to somehow cynically
Speaker 3: tie this into like racism or something. They'll find a
Speaker 3: way to twist it in this weird way to be like, yes,
Speaker 3: you see liv Prostone is racist or something. You know,
Speaker 3: so I yeah, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, it's cynical and asinine empathetic, but sadly like
Speaker 2: it's also the reality. Yeah, I wonder, like, obviously none
Speaker 2: of us can see the future, and we've talked about
Speaker 2: how mister prostal can be used on its own if
Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not as good, it's not as good if
Speaker 3: it's used together.
Speaker 2: But yeah, do you foresee a world where like that
Speaker 2: is targeted next?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, if they're really serious about that, they're
Speaker 3: going to try. I mean, I think at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, we can keep Zelots out of the
Speaker 3: Supreme Court somehow.
Speaker 1: In a while before we get another crack at that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, then I think we should be okay, because I mean,
Speaker 3: it's it's a bad argument. The argument doesn't really hold up.
Speaker 3: I mean, some judge interpreting the medical data with or
Speaker 3: without the help of some you know, quasi scientific group
Speaker 3: of like pro life doctors. It's just not going to
Speaker 3: hold up to what the FDA has done and has
Speaker 3: to go through. So I don't I don't know, I
Speaker 3: don't know. I want to say, I really want to say,
Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to be an issue, but
Speaker 3: I can't guarantee it because the fact that you know,
Speaker 3: this is such a relatively safe drug and it's called
Speaker 3: the question, I mean, it's pretty brazen. I think that
Speaker 3: they're doing this and well they do it again with
Speaker 3: other medications. Yeah, probably well win though I hope not.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think this is setting they're setting basically
Speaker 3: a roadmap for this to be done again and again
Speaker 3: for for medications they don't like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and those are all going The medications they don't
Speaker 2: like are all going to affect a certain group of people, right, Like,
Speaker 2: that's right, That's just that seems to be the sort
Speaker 2: of target group for, like you said, a very small
Speaker 2: percentage of the of the population who are just on
Speaker 2: their culture or bullshit and don't really care how this
Speaker 2: affects thousands of people's lives. Obviously, Like folks are also
Speaker 2: facing like they can't access gender firming care and lots
Speaker 2: of places. Right, This is the other massive area of
Speaker 2: healthcare that the Republicans seem to be very willing to
Speaker 2: ignore the and some Democrats ignore the evidence on it
Speaker 2: and just attack people for culture war reasons. And I
Speaker 2: know that one thing folks do there is organized mutual
Speaker 2: aid networks to help people access medications that they need
Speaker 2: for their gender firm and care with medications like this
Speaker 2: is it like like you said, there are lots of
Speaker 2: contraindications and it's not always safe, Like are these things
Speaker 2: that people like people will be inclined and get to
Speaker 2: be like, oh shit, maybe I should stock up. Maybe
Speaker 2: I should like load my medicine cabinet, and maybe we
Speaker 2: could discuss that, Like you said that there are risks
Speaker 2: that come alongside that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I certainly would understand if I was
Speaker 3: in a position where I thought my bodily autonomy could
Speaker 3: be going away anytime soon. I think I could see
Speaker 3: why someone would stock up on it. I mean, I
Speaker 3: don't know enough about the medication to tell you about
Speaker 3: its shelf life. I know that it is just require
Speaker 3: some special handling, So I don't know if it's the
Speaker 3: kind of thing that you can keep for long periods
Speaker 3: of time. But you know, if that part of it
Speaker 3: was worked out, I certainly don't see I mean, I
Speaker 3: could see why you'd want it again, it comes down
Speaker 3: to the do it yourself nature of it. Now, the
Speaker 3: beauty of this is these what these what we've seen
Speaker 3: with these medications is when we did the COVID, we
Speaker 3: took it when COVID happened, and we kind of took
Speaker 3: it out of the doctor's hands and made it more
Speaker 3: directly to the patient. Actually, the outcomes weren't much different,
Speaker 3: so that seems to be a very reaffirming thing. But
Speaker 3: you know, I still I would like for there to
Speaker 3: be medical involvement in this. I would like doctors to
Speaker 3: be involved in this, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, perhaps we are progressing towards a place where like
Speaker 2: technology can help with some of that and take away
Speaker 2: the liability from doctors in places where they could face
Speaker 2: a long time in jail.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's that's the other thing. It's going
Speaker 3: to be interesting to see how this pans out, like
Speaker 3: from doctors in the future, if there's gonna be people
Speaker 3: still willing to learn these skills, you know, because not
Speaker 3: every abortion can be done you know, medically, still going
Speaker 3: to be a need for for the the more older
Speaker 3: fashion forms of abortion that's still going to need to
Speaker 3: be done. So, you know, I'm hoping that people are
Speaker 3: still going to be willing to learn from this, and
Speaker 3: if anything, I'm actually hoping that people young medical students
Speaker 3: are more interested to learn from it. So we'll see
Speaker 3: how it goes. Like you know, when when COVID first started,
Speaker 3: there was a huge burst of people interested in medical
Speaker 3: school and going into infectious disease. But then you know,
Speaker 3: over time, and in the ER for that matter, too,
Speaker 3: they saw the need for it. They saw the call
Speaker 3: to arms, you know, and it took three years of
Speaker 3: seeing what kind of bullshit ID doctors and ER doctors
Speaker 3: had to deal with before those medical school numbers dropped
Speaker 3: way off and people interested in those fields. You know.
Speaker 3: In fact, ER, for people trying to go into ER,
Speaker 3: they have to go through this whole match process, which
Speaker 3: is like a big deal. Like it's a stressful thing
Speaker 3: where you try to get into the best place you can.
Speaker 3: And R has always been a pretty like sought after field.
Speaker 3: It's not the most competitive, but you know, there is
Speaker 3: there is a good amount of competition to get into
Speaker 3: the good places. And this was like the first year
Speaker 3: I remember where there was a ton of unfilled spots
Speaker 3: at good institutions too, So, like you know, how I
Speaker 3: do worry will this be the same sort of thing.
Speaker 3: Will there be an uptick of people interested in women's
Speaker 3: healthcare and and providing that vital that vital need. I
Speaker 3: think there probably will be, But will it be sustained?
Speaker 3: I don't know. Will they just give up after seeing
Speaker 3: how much bullshit has thrown their way?
Speaker 2: It's totally feasible, Yeah, I mean, if you're looking, it
Speaker 2: has to be like an idea, Like my sister is
Speaker 2: an ob gyn, and like does my sister doesn't live
Speaker 2: in the United States, who doesn't have to deal with
Speaker 2: any of this bullshit and so like, but very much
Speaker 2: enjoys a job and it's very passionate about it. But
Speaker 2: I can see how doing get here. It would have
Speaker 2: to be almost a political idea or your commitment as well.
Speaker 2: Like you can't practice your your your career in half
Speaker 2: the state. I don't even know if you can go
Speaker 2: to medical school in like states where it's banned, and
Speaker 2: like that's a.
Speaker 3: Really interesting question. I wonder if it will affect the
Speaker 3: medical training in medical school. Yeah, in places where. That's
Speaker 3: really interesting and scary now that I think about it. It, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's gonna be, It's going to be available for people.
Speaker 3: There's always going to be organizations fighting to do this
Speaker 3: and to get it out there. But how how hard
Speaker 3: it's going to be to find a provider to help
Speaker 3: you with this that in the future, I'm hoping it
Speaker 3: does not become a problem.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I did all these little sort of it's
Speaker 2: really important, I guess like that folks do whatever they
Speaker 2: can to preserve these rights because generally, like the state
Speaker 2: doesn't give back power that it's able to take from people,
Speaker 2: and this could mean a lot like this, And I'm
Speaker 2: not like trying to conflate fucking having to have a
Speaker 2: vaccine to breathe on someone and and like, you know,
Speaker 2: like that is not really attacking your body autonomy. Like
Speaker 2: you're attacking someone else's body autonomy if you want to
Speaker 2: give them an effect your disease, right, But when it
Speaker 2: takes away things like this, they you know, like like
Speaker 2: that has other consequences. Even if you're not a person
Speaker 2: who can get pregnant, and you don't think you're ever
Speaker 2: going to be getting somewhat pregnant like this should matter to.
Speaker 1: You because you know autonomy should matter to you.
Speaker 3: It seems a matter to most of the people in
Speaker 3: the country, So I mean that's a part of this
Speaker 3: I don't understand. I mean, I guess it's all ideologically driven,
Speaker 3: but because it doesn't seem like a winning proposition if
Speaker 3: you're a politician to do something this unpopular. But I
Speaker 3: don't know. I don't know much about politics. I suppose yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, what is popular and what wins elections in
Speaker 2: the United States can be vastly disparate things, as we've seen,
Speaker 2: given the system which is deliberately organized to befuddle the
Speaker 2: results of a popular vote.
Speaker 3: Okvit.
Speaker 2: I wonder if there's anything else you wanted to discuss around.
Speaker 1: This issue of abortion and bodily autonomy.
Speaker 2: Obviously it's going to be one that plays out massively
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four, but I.
Speaker 3: Want to make it clear. I mean, this should be
Speaker 3: pretty evident my stance on it. But I do believe
Speaker 3: abortion is essential and evidence based healthcare. It's in that
Speaker 3: evidence based part of it. I think is important to
Speaker 3: reiterate because we do have data on it, we do
Speaker 3: have data that it is safe, we do have data
Speaker 3: that it's safer than some of the other options. And
Speaker 3: if it's removed as an option, we are not only
Speaker 3: taking away, you know, a woman's right to attimey over
Speaker 3: her own body, but we're putting them at more health
Speaker 3: risks potentially for it. And you know, I'm not an
Speaker 3: er doctor, I'm not obi gin, but I can guarantee
Speaker 3: that they're gonna have to deal with a lot more
Speaker 3: problems because of this. If that happens, they're gonna be
Speaker 3: dealing with a lot more complications and difficulties because of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one thing I wanted to hit that I
Speaker 2: totally forgot about. I don't want to I don't want
Speaker 2: to phrase this in terms of like people wanting to
Speaker 2: end a pregnancy have any more or less right to
Speaker 2: do so than people needing to end a pregnancy, because
Speaker 2: everyone should have the right to choose what happens to
Speaker 2: their body equally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.
Speaker 2: I am I believe I'm right in thinking that many
Speaker 2: of these drugs are relied upon by people who have
Speaker 2: miscarried or have a pregnancy.
Speaker 1: Isn't compatible with life, right And.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean though the horror stories about
Speaker 3: women that are forced to carry if you know, baby's
Speaker 3: a term that are not compatible life for you know,
Speaker 3: a severe critical illness. It's those are horrifying. And these
Speaker 3: are medications that can be done again at home for
Speaker 3: some For some patients it can be done at home,
Speaker 3: which is you know, not great. You know, it's still
Speaker 3: not gonna be maybe a fun process, but it'll be
Speaker 3: a much better process for them, much less traumatic, I
Speaker 3: would hope, you know, than having to to have it
Speaker 3: done later on and in a hospital in a much
Speaker 3: more clinical, cold setting. And we try to make these
Speaker 3: things as good as possible. Our nurses are amazing, and
Speaker 3: our doctors who do this are are compassionate. But you know,
Speaker 3: if someone could do something safely at home, you know,
Speaker 3: and it can be done safely, I don't see why not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it can the dignity and privacy of your own
Speaker 2: setting where you use your home or you know whatever
Speaker 2: with your family, then yeah, as opposed to being forced
Speaker 2: to carry a baby which isn't compatible with life, like,
Speaker 2: that's got to really.
Speaker 1: Fuck you up. And it's I don't know, I don't.
Speaker 2: Think people are thinking about what they're doing to other
Speaker 2: people when they make these these I don't know, horrible decisions, But.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope they didn't get to keep making them.
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 2: We can all interpret that however we want. Are there
Speaker 2: any Are there any organizations that you'd suggest folks follow
Speaker 2: get involved with, like their groups that are helping to
Speaker 2: facilitate access to care, either where it's difficult or just
Speaker 2: trying to campaign to keep it legal.
Speaker 3: You know, I know there's been a lot of criticisms
Speaker 3: in the past towards its organization from all sides, But
Speaker 3: you know, I've known a lot of people who work
Speaker 3: for Planned Parenthood, and I still think they do good work.
Speaker 3: You know, They're not perfect by any means, and they
Speaker 3: have valid criticisms from both from really from from a
Speaker 3: couple of different angles. But still the people I know
Speaker 3: they are working there are aren't doing their best and
Speaker 3: are really want to help. And then there are international
Speaker 3: organizations still that are involved in the abortion making the
Speaker 3: abortion pill accessible, and there's a lot of different ways
Speaker 3: to get to that. I don't have one in particular
Speaker 3: that I would recommend, but the one that I have
Speaker 3: worked with people that I've met in seen and talked
Speaker 3: to and have learned so much from a lot of
Speaker 3: those people are from Planned parenthood.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, And like you said, they have been criticized,
Speaker 2: but they've also stepped up to meet like what is
Speaker 2: a pretty terrible situation. And they're building more clinics on
Speaker 2: the borders of states where you don't have the right
Speaker 2: to terminate your pregnancy so that people can travel. And
Speaker 2: yet it's pretty fucked up that that's what we're doing
Speaker 2: now we have the underground railroad for abortion kind of thing.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean it takes a big organization to
Speaker 2: deal with the organization that is the state or you know,
Speaker 2: the state of Texas or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's done really well.
Speaker 2: Is there anything like you'd like to plug or do
Speaker 2: you like to tell people where they can find you?
Speaker 3: So I'm available on Twitter at the House of Pod
Speaker 3: if you do Twitter, and you could listen to our
Speaker 3: podcast the House of Pod. It's pretty much everywhere you
Speaker 3: find your podcast. And guests range from like world expert
Speaker 3: physicians to like Garrison Davis, so like you knowing those
Speaker 3: two things, they're an expert of their own way. And
Speaker 3: and I'm sure I'll get you on soon enough whether
Speaker 3: you like it or not. And so we get a
Speaker 3: lot of the different guests. The range is pretty wide,
Speaker 3: and we talk about medical related health topics and try
Speaker 3: to do it in a relatively informal way, and so
Speaker 3: it's I think it's relatively fun. It's been really educational
Speaker 3: for me. I'm really enjoying doing it and I get
Speaker 3: to be cool people like you. So it's a good show,
Speaker 3: I think. But I'm biased because it's my show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I enjoyed. People should listen.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, mate.
Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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Speaker 3: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
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