WEBVTT - Medication Abortions and the People Trying to Ban Them 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:06.000 I love podcast fans. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.840 Today it's me James, and I'm joined by Cave Hoder, 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.160 who's a doctor in the Bay Area and also host 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:15.800 of the House of Pod podcast, which an extent podcast 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.000 for you to add to what you've done listening this podcast, 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.960 you can add that to your podcast rotation. But we're 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:27.720 talking today about medication abortions, and specifically about attempts to 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:32.640 ban medigation abortions by anti abortion activists, which included a 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.080 recent case at the Supreme Court. So, Cave, would you 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.760 maybe like to add anything I'd missed from your introduction? 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:41.560 No, yeah, that was pretty much all the good stuff. 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:43.720 Thank you for having me. This is super fun. I 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.840 love all your podcasts. I like your work, so thank 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.600 you for having me. And yeah, the topic is it. 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:56.720 It's super duper duper important and it is in the 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.320 headlines a lot, but at the same time not enough, 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.280 you know what I mean. If like, people are talking 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:04.720 about it a ton, but I don't know if they're 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.600 talking about it enough, or if the gravity of the 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.560 situation is really hitting people, or if it is we're 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:13.800 just overwhelmed by how much bullshit we've had to deal 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:15.959 with in regard to this. If people are kind of 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.120 feeling a little bit beaten about it and feeling a 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.240 little bit disheartened, But I am super glad that we're 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:22.400 going to discuss it today. 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:27.040 Yeah, I think maybe it is bizarre, how I don't 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:29.679 you know, I think we're dealing with so much bullshit 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.840 and every day something terrible happens, and so I can 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.280 understand how this kind of came and went in the 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.880 news cycle. At the same time, it does seem like, 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:41.680 why the fuck were They're not ten million people out 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.080 in the street trying to burn things down when like, like, 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.360 if you're listening to this and you don't think you 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.880 know anyone who's used this, it's most likely because someone 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.920 in your life hasn't shared that with you. Like I 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.200 can think of more people than I can count on 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.640 my fingers who I care about very dearly, who have 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:01.840 used absolutely. 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.040 Someone posted this once and I thought it was really 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.200 actually pretty brilliant. It was like, if you don't know 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.160 anyone that has, that means they don't trust you enough 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.320 to tell you, or they think you're a douche. So 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.600 like there's a there's a reason, you know. So, yeah, 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:17.600 it's it's very. 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.920 Common, right, And so I think maybe to start out with, 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.919 we should explain, like what is a medication abortion and 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.519 how does it work and why is it so common. 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.080 Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about that. I think 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.680 maybe we could touch a little bit on the history 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.200 of it too, because I think it is kind of 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.760 interesting to look at it from a bigger perspective and 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.720 medication abortions, they account for more than half of all 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:45.040 abortions nationwide. It's usually done. There are a couple of 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:46.600 different ways of doing it, but the most common one 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.639 by far is a two drug combination mif for prostone 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.359 and misoprostal, and these are the ones. They are used 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.200 generally in the United States and in other countries as well. 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.440 You can use mister prostal alone, but it's just not 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.680 as effective as these two drugs together. MIF of prostone 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.120 blocks progesterone and what that is. It's a hormone that 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.000 you need to make the pregnancy happen. It makes the 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.200 uterus a hospitable place for it to occur. And we'll 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:18.640 talk a little bit. I think about the misso the 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:23.120 mifa prostone, try the misoprostol as well, because that's a 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.680 prostac landing and they do a bunch of things in 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.000 the body, but one of them is to cause contractions 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.040 of the uterus. In that that's two these two drugs together. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:37.880 One makes the pregnancy less able to progress and then 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.400 the other one expels it. So that's how these two 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:45.720 medications work. What I think is really interesting about them 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.320 is a little bit of the backstory to it. So 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.280 my understanding. Then there might be some medical anthropologists or 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:56.720 historians who know more about it than me. I'm sure 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.720 that's the case, but it's you have to put the 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:05.440 song perspective because when I grew up, abortions were all invasive, 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.280 surgical essentially, and it was a you had to have 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.240 it done in a very specific manner. Now we have 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.080 the opportunity and the option to do it in a 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:21.680 much I think, safer, control, less traumatic way. And you know, 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:26.400 it kind of started in Brazil because in Brazil, you know, 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.599 I know, because it doesn't make sense, right, but abortion 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.279 is illegal there, as you might imagine, and women there, 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.200 like women in any place, are going to look for 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.400 ways to have abortions if they want or need one. 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:40.840 And one of the things they would do is it 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.800 basically go to like a drug store or a pharmacy 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:48.040 and they would look for medications that said beware, this 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.719 could cause abortions. That's that's one of the ways this 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.839 all started. One of those was mister prostal that medication 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.320 I mentioned, that's a prostaglandin Again, prostal glands do a 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.640 lot of things. I'm a gi doctor by trade, and 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:05.039 you know from my perspective, they're also used for treatment 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.120 of ulcers, not really something we go to that much 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.640 or anymore, but there are other uses for it. And 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:12.840 so they found that it could cause these contractions of 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.960 the uterus and they would use it there for that purpose. 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.760 The French were actually the ones that worked on mifiprostone 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:21.800 or RU four eighty six, and that's the one that 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.279 blocks the progesterone and stops the pregnancy from progressing. So 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.560 the background, I think is really interesting and how far 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:33.800 it's come during this time. You know, how it started 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.520 when our use here, to how it changed during COVID, 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.680 I think is a really fascinating thing. And where we're 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:43.720 at now with these medications. I can't we're gonna talk 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:45.760 about it. I'm sorry. I don't want to jump ahead, 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:50.640 but I'm just so I'm so upset and I know 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.719 I should be at this point in my life much 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:59.400 more used to like these weirdly cynical bs moves of 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:03.920 a republic in judge or whatever promoting this as being 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.760 a safety issue. I know I shouldn't be surprised and 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.120 upset by it, but I am. And that's the part 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.080 that really bothers me right now is the argument they're 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:17.560 using against it is so bullshit and cymical that I 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.520 and again I don't think enough people are talking about it. 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.520 No, it is like I'm the same way, like I 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.080 should be. A lot of my work has been border reporting, 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:31.400 and like I should by now be Like, no, I shouldn't, 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.520 because those people are fucking terrible. Like there's a group 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:37.720 of journalists who just seem to have lost their capacity 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.400 to care for other human beings and can report on 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.720 human suffering without taking any toll on their on their 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:48.320 personal mental health, and they congregate on various Facebook groups 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:50.640 and in bars and expensive hotels or around the world, 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.480 and I don't like that. But like, similarly, a number 0:06:55.520 --> 0:07:00.320 of conservative conservatives around word like anti immigration States used 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.520 to title forty two. They soon to keep Title forty 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:07.520 two right, citing the risk of COVID nineteen from migrants 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:09.840 crossing our borders. And these are the same fucking people 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.320 who have been like, we don't want to wear masks, 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:18.760 we shouldn't have vaccine mandates like it. Yeah, it is 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.160 infuriating that they can't just be like, yeah, I don't 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.120 think you should have the right to bodily autonomy, and 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:24.760 I don't care how I get there, so I'm just 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:26.840 going to use this troll ass methodology. 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:32.920 It bothers me that there were doctors involved in this case, 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.160 the court case, and it does bother me that there 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.680 are doctors that are fighting this. I mean, I get it. 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.680 If not every doctor wants to do an abortion, I 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:47.560 totally understand that. But to not stand for a woman's 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.200 autonomy over her own body is the part that I 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.920 can't get. I mean, it's like it's I'm not an 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.560 ethicist by any means, but that's like the bare minimum 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.840 is like you're supposed to believe in someone's autonomy over 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:03.280 there themselves, and the fact that it's being removed piece 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.040 by piece it should be bothering doctors who are who 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.240 are supposed to be following ethics, you know what I mean. 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.920 So I'm also a little bit from that end, I'm 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.560 mad at our own I'm mad at our own people, 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:20.320 I'm mad at doctors, and I am on my little 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.800 echo chamber in Twitter, where there's lots of doctors who 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.560 feel the same way I do, and I hear from them, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.480 but I know that it's kind of there alone. I'm 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.920 not hearing it from other doctors out in the real world, 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:34.440 you know, and not enough at least. 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.880 Yeah, we should explain a little bit that, like the 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:42.079 original case, the complainants were doctors, right, who were claiming 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.320 that they were having to treat complications that arose from 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:46.520 medication abortion. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:47.079 Is that right? 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.040 Yeah, they're a part of it. I don't know how 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:50.880 big a part of it, or if they're just used 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.160 because they're like a lot of times people, for good 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.000 or bad reasons, will bring a doctor out in a 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.240 white coat at like a press conference, which is like, 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.920 you know, like we're just wearing white coats all the time, 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.040 you know, and just the sand in the background and 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.120 sort of add some sort of weight to the argument. 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:09.720 And so I don't know how much of it was 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.439 that in this situation, but I mean, the argument that 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:17.079 they're making that these medications are not safe just it's 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.760 a silly argument. I mean, we know that the mortality 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.679 rate for medical abortion is less dramatically than the mortality 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.920 rate for childbirth, and that changes too depending on if 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.920 you're like a white woman in a wealthy neighborhood or 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:35.000 a black woman. There's different mortality rates, but pretty much 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:37.680 across the board, it's going to be safer. I mean, 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:40.760 the chance of a serious complication is there. It can 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.760 happen any medication. It can happen penicillin, it can happen 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:49.040 higher rates. By the way, viagra. When viagra came out, 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:50.760 there was the first year it came out, there was 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.040 about five hundred and fifty deaths from viagra. I mean, 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:59.280 granted the cardiovascular problems patients had, whatever, but still there 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.680 was a if not without risk. You don't see any 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.640 judge from Texas, you know, coming out to talk about 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:07.760 viagra being an issue. No. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.640 I think you're right to, isihlate that, like being pregnant 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.760 is also a risk, and much greater risk in many cases, 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.000 especially like you said, because of these different intersectional things 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.640 which can make it a greater risk for some people. 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.280 So I would love to talk about why these became 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.319 more Popular's the wrong way, but maybe more widely used 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.960 to facilitate abortions during COVID because that's super interesting. 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.920 Yeah, So the long and the short of it is 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.240 when they first started doing these tasks. But I'm sorry, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:44.240 when they first started doing these medication abortions, there was 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:46.440 a bit of a process that had to go into it, 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:50.680 Like doctors were worried. I mean, we're always conservative. Doctors 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.679 are always conservative. We always start with like probably more than 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:58.240 it's absolutely necessary, and then over time we do enough research, 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.760 we get enough like evidence behind us that we can 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.120 peel back parts of it. So when it first started, 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.800 you know, people wanted ultrasounds, lab tests make sure that 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.400 they weren't people weren't a mnemic or didn't have a 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.760 risk of bleeding. They wanted to make sure the livers 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.880 were okay. Labs are probably weren't totally necessary. The ultrasound, 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.320 I think scared people a lot. Or people really wanted 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.040 there always be an ultraound just to make sure there 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.040 wasn't like an ectopic pregnancy or a pregnancy, or it 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.920 doesn't occur where it's supposed to outside of where we 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.360 expected to and those can be dangerous and if you 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.760 do take these medications. You know, obviously you're going to 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:35.760 be a bit more of a risk if you don't 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.080 If you don't know, that's an ectopic pregnancy. So there 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.200 was a lot of a lot of things that people 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.240 had to do back then. Then then started to peel 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.520 away slowly, like doctors might were starting to be like, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.080 all right, do I really need to get liver tests 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.760 if I'm going to give this patient a medicational abortion, 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:53.560 And those tests started to peel off slowly, And then 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:58.520 when COVID happened, basically people weren't able to go to 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:00.920 the doctor as much or as easily. Either weren't doctor 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.319 offices or or open. It was harder for people to 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.640 get to in the beginning, you know, and it only 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:10.640 got harder with COVID. So the ACLU actually sued the 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:16.160 FDA and they actually won, and through that that women 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.240 did have to come in anymore for these They could 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.400 all be done via like teleconference or a video chat basically, okay, 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.360 so which is a big game changer. 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:29.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes it much easier. And so 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:31.200 it used to be the case at least, so you 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:35.360 could get these things in the mail right particulably, After 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.760 some kind of teleconference or video chat. Is that still 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.840 Is that still the case in states where there isn't 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.239 like the strictest kind of abortion ban or is it universal? 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.400 No, it's my understanding it's still as of now possible. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.439 It's still available. You're supposed to be able to do it. 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.840 I think we're going to find that it's becoming more difficult. 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.040 We're already seeing cases. I mean, they've been highlighted on 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.400 on social media. How often they're happening now, I don't know, 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.920 but there we see cases now of you know, a 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:11.600 pharmacist not fulfilling medical abortion pills, and in the comments 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.160 section when you look at why why not, they're saying 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.640 because is now banned by a federal judge. So, I 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.320 mean it's not true it was. The Supreme Court has 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.040 you know, has okayed it for now. I mean for 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.199 now it's still okay and allowed. But there's going to 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.880 be enough confusion about it. There's going to be enough 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.000 worry about it that people are going to have a 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:38.840 harder time doing it, getting it, or even finding, you know, 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:40.520 people that are willing to do it. At this point, 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.679 there's probably a lot of concern from patients and medical providers, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.760 so you know, even though it is technically still allowed, 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.360 I mean I don't know how for how long you know, 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.080 I am worried. And also I don't know if this 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.080 is really hindered you know, people being able to access this, 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:00.640 and I think it probably is. 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.160 Yeah, it certainly hasn't made it smoother. 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.000 As you said, right that it only takes you know, 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.040 one person to have delay of a number of weeks 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.040 or whatever, and it might not be an option or 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:10.360 it might. 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:11.000 Not be as safe. 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.960 And how do you know how how far along these 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:20.560 these medical medication abortions are like generally advised. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:26.280 You know, the medication abortions are considered safe in the 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.920 second and I think even parts of the third trimester, 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:34.960 but generally after the first trimester is when it's it's 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:39.040 considered a little bit more dangerous and most medical professionals 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.280 would want you to come in to have it done. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.400 So I mean that's my understanding. I'm not obigian, I 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:49.400 should make that clear, but I think for for the 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.280 most part, within the first trimester, people generally consider that's 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.240 something that's manageable at home. Outside of that, I think 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.480 you're probably more likely to have the medical professional want 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.200 you to come in and see them. 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.360 Yeah, that makes sense, and in some states it's going 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.360 to be a lot harder, if not impossible, or countries 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.200 like I know, for instance, I've come across groups in 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:16.120 Myanmar were distributing these drugs. Abortion has been illegal, they're 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:21.320 more or less for since British colonial rule, since it 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:26.120 was United as a sort of state, not really a nation. 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:30.800 It's been a it's been illegal. They've sort of made 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.880 some moves towards it being less illegal, and then obviously 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.040 with the with the coup, it's become more illegal again, 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.200 and people there have been There was a website up 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.160 in the twenty twenty one about how they facilitated mutual 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.360 aid distribution of it, which I found super interesting, and 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.280 then at some point they obviously that that must have 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.080 got them some heat and they took it down. But 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.480 it's used all over the world in places where people 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.680 don't have access to care, right alongside being used here 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.280 where people may or may not have access to care, 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:00.360 which is pretty fun out. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.760 Yeah, I mean, it's funny that, like, you know, we're 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:10.200 comparing ourselves. I mean, it's you would think twenty twenty 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.960 three we wouldn't be you know, looking to other countries 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.080 to guide us at this point. You would hopefully we 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:21.240 would have figured this out by ourselves after everything. But yeah, 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.840 I mean, it's funny you look at the historical you 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.640 look at it from a global perspective, it is interesting. 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.800 It's really a global effort to try and get these 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:34.800 medications out to people. One of the major major companies 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.040 that sends these pills and mails these pills is in Europe, 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.480 and they try to get them to other countries. It 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.160 is sort of a global effort at this point to 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.160 try which is kind of cool. That's one good thing 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.240 about this. It shows you that most of the world 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.000 seems to be on board with this, whether or not 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.720 governments are or not. You know, I hear eighty percent 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.840 here in the United States is it's for it. I mean, 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.720 I think that sounds about right, you know. And the 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:01.720 fact that there's so many people in the country and 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.040 then the world trying to figure out ways to get 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.520 these medications to people. That's one, I guess, sort of 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.160 reaffirming thing about this. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.000 It's impressive to see people just doing grassroots mutual laid 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.800 One thing that was very popular around the time of 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:29.840 the Dub's decision a lot of people were showing these 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:35.320 videos on do it yourself abortion pills or like homemade. 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.840 I think it was misaprostal, it may have been both. 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.119 It may have been mith for Bristowe as well. Obviously, 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.840 like this is empowering and like we want people to 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:49.720 be empowered to make ostigions about their own body. But 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.960 perhaps you could explain why, like it it's also suboptimal. 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.400 Yeah, you know, it's it is definitely suboptimal. I mean 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.520 I'm not every time I say something like that, there's 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.080 always some corner of the Internet that's like, well, you're 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.359 a shill for big farm or you're like part of 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.439 the medical industry or whatever, and yeah, sure whatever, But 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.960 I mean it is it's a risk. I mean, these medications, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.359 like I said, they're safe, but they're not without risk. 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.600 You know, there are things that can occur when you 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.280 have this are contradications to some of these medications, Like 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:29.320 there's contradications to mif aprostone, like ectopic pregnancy like I mentioned. 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.040 And you can get that worked up to be evaluated, 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.120 or you can at least have the very basic questionnaire 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.119 filled out that would help at least give you the 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:44.320 hint if it's there, chronic adrenal failure, porphyria, inherited porphyria. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.080 These are things that are that doctors who do this 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.480 think about and know and as part of the process 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.840 to get these medications, even if it's just a questionnaire 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.960 that you fill out online. So there are risks. There 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.040 are bad things that can have happened with these medications, 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.280 as there are with penicillin. Like I mentioned, I've seen 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:07.200 people with, you know, life threatening allergies to to penicillin. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.480 I've seen people with who have liver failure from basic 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.080 stuff that you know people take all the time, like 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.399 tail and all. So you know, it's it's It does 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.399 make me very nervous, and I like, do it yourself 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.120 is I like that that people are trying to find 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:28.280 ways around it. But and I hope we never get 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.280 to a place where this is that's absolutely necessary. I hope, 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:37.200 you know, but I understand why people are curious about 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.719 it and why you're looking into it and reading about it. 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.280 I obviously I'm not going to ever really promote do 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.680 it yourself medicine to that Farbard degree. 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.520 Yeah, like at someone I use insulin every day, right, 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:53.280 and people have been making their own insulin I've seen 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.119 on the internet for for a long time, and I 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.160 find it super fascinating. Intern also costs fuckle to produce, 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.840 like like a cup of sense, and it costs hundreds 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.520 of dollars to buy. Folks can accuse me of being 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.520 a show for Big Farmer, but I have plenty of 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.159 publications pointing in the other direction. 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:14.840 You and me both, brother, Yeah, yeah, look at us, 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:17.840 two guys just breaking in the pharma dough. 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:18.520 That's it. 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:23.120 Yeah, that's that's why I'm recording in this shed provided 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:28.679 by FISA. No, and yeah, there is. These things are 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.280 not expensive to make, they shouldn't be expensive to buy, 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.520 and they can be had extremely safely. And the things 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.320 that are stopping you from accessing them cheaply and safely 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:43.480 and easily politicians and also pharmaceutical companies sometimes. 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.560 You know. That's the funny thing too, is that you 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.760 think for like, these right wingers are always talking about 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:54.199 like relaxing regulations and whatever. It's like, I wonder if 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.080 they recognize that on some level, what this is doing 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.160 is it's just going to impinge on you know, quote 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:03.440 unquote innovation in pharma. Like if you're a farm company 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.480 and you're thinking about some medication that could be used 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.680 for this, or you're thinking about creating a new medication 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.760 for something that could, in the slightest way be deemed 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.879 inappropriate by some judge somewhere. And then if they're making 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.159 the decision, not the FDA, Like if you're a farm industry, 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:21.560 you may be like, it screwed. I'm not going to 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:24.480 worry about that medication at all. You know, nothing else. 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.520 This is going to cut back on innovation in pharmacy. 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.440 Yeah, like anything with a contry indication for being pregnant 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:34.240 would be vulnerable to this. Right, we should probably explain 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:39.040 that the use of myth of pristone as an abortion 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.760 drug was approved by the FDA in an expedited process, right, 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:48.080 and that was what was being challenged. Can you explain 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.320 why although it's faster, that doesn't mean it's any less thorough. 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.120 In my understanding, I might be wrong, the FDA went like, yeah, 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:56.960 fuck it, let's give it a try and see what happens. 0:21:57.520 --> 0:21:59.200 No, I mean it's a very good question. I mean 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:03.080 we do have safety data behind it. So again, you're 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.720 exactly right. This is not done in a vacuum. It's 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:11.159 not done haphazardly. I mean there is there still always 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:15.600 is a pretty strict process to go through for these medications. 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.240