1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: I love podcast fans. 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 2: Today it's me James, and I'm joined by Cave Hoder, 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 2: who's a doctor in the Bay Area and also host 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: of the House of Pod podcast, which an extent podcast 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: for you to add to what you've done listening this podcast, 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: you can add that to your podcast rotation. But we're 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: talking today about medication abortions, and specifically about attempts to 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 2: ban medigation abortions by anti abortion activists, which included a 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: recent case at the Supreme Court. So, Cave, would you 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: maybe like to add anything I'd missed from your introduction? 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 3: No, yeah, that was pretty much all the good stuff. 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. This is super fun. I 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 3: love all your podcasts. I like your work, so thank 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 3: you for having me. And yeah, the topic is it. 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 3: It's super duper duper important and it is in the 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 3: headlines a lot, but at the same time not enough, 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. If like, people are talking 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 3: about it a ton, but I don't know if they're 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 3: talking about it enough, or if the gravity of the 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 3: situation is really hitting people, or if it is we're 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 3: just overwhelmed by how much bullshit we've had to deal 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 3: with in regard to this. If people are kind of 23 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 3: feeling a little bit beaten about it and feeling a 24 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: little bit disheartened, But I am super glad that we're 25 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 3: going to discuss it today. 26 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think maybe it is bizarre, how I don't 27 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 2: you know, I think we're dealing with so much bullshit 28 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: and every day something terrible happens, and so I can 29 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 2: understand how this kind of came and went in the 30 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: news cycle. At the same time, it does seem like, 31 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 2: why the fuck were They're not ten million people out 32 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: in the street trying to burn things down when like, like, 33 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: if you're listening to this and you don't think you 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: know anyone who's used this, it's most likely because someone 35 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: in your life hasn't shared that with you. Like I 36 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: can think of more people than I can count on 37 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: my fingers who I care about very dearly, who have 38 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: used absolutely. 39 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: Someone posted this once and I thought it was really 40 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 3: actually pretty brilliant. It was like, if you don't know 41 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 3: anyone that has, that means they don't trust you enough 42 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 3: to tell you, or they think you're a douche. So 43 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 3: like there's a there's a reason, you know. So, yeah, 44 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 3: it's it's very. 45 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 2: Common, right, And so I think maybe to start out with, 46 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: we should explain, like what is a medication abortion and 47 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 2: how does it work and why is it so common. 48 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about that. I think 49 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 3: maybe we could touch a little bit on the history 50 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 3: of it too, because I think it is kind of 51 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 3: interesting to look at it from a bigger perspective and 52 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: medication abortions, they account for more than half of all 53 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: abortions nationwide. It's usually done. There are a couple of 54 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: different ways of doing it, but the most common one 55 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 3: by far is a two drug combination mif for prostone 56 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 3: and misoprostal, and these are the ones. They are used 57 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 3: generally in the United States and in other countries as well. 58 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 3: You can use mister prostal alone, but it's just not 59 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: as effective as these two drugs together. MIF of prostone 60 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: blocks progesterone and what that is. It's a hormone that 61 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 3: you need to make the pregnancy happen. It makes the 62 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 3: uterus a hospitable place for it to occur. And we'll 63 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 3: talk a little bit. I think about the misso the 64 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: mifa prostone, try the misoprostol as well, because that's a 65 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 3: prostac landing and they do a bunch of things in 66 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 3: the body, but one of them is to cause contractions 67 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 3: of the uterus. In that that's two these two drugs together. 68 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: One makes the pregnancy less able to progress and then 69 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: the other one expels it. So that's how these two 70 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 3: medications work. What I think is really interesting about them 71 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: is a little bit of the backstory to it. So 72 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: my understanding. Then there might be some medical anthropologists or 73 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: historians who know more about it than me. I'm sure 74 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: that's the case, but it's you have to put the 75 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 3: song perspective because when I grew up, abortions were all invasive, 76 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 3: surgical essentially, and it was a you had to have 77 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: it done in a very specific manner. Now we have 78 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: the opportunity and the option to do it in a 79 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 3: much I think, safer, control, less traumatic way. And you know, 80 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 3: it kind of started in Brazil because in Brazil, you know, 81 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 3: I know, because it doesn't make sense, right, but abortion 82 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 3: is illegal there, as you might imagine, and women there, 83 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: like women in any place, are going to look for 84 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 3: ways to have abortions if they want or need one. 85 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 3: And one of the things they would do is it 86 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 3: basically go to like a drug store or a pharmacy 87 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 3: and they would look for medications that said beware, this 88 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 3: could cause abortions. That's that's one of the ways this 89 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 3: all started. One of those was mister prostal that medication 90 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: I mentioned, that's a prostaglandin Again, prostal glands do a 91 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 3: lot of things. I'm a gi doctor by trade, and 92 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 3: you know from my perspective, they're also used for treatment 93 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 3: of ulcers, not really something we go to that much 94 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 3: or anymore, but there are other uses for it. And 95 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 3: so they found that it could cause these contractions of 96 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 3: the uterus and they would use it there for that purpose. 97 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: The French were actually the ones that worked on mifiprostone 98 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 3: or RU four eighty six, and that's the one that 99 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 3: blocks the progesterone and stops the pregnancy from progressing. So 100 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 3: the background, I think is really interesting and how far 101 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: it's come during this time. You know, how it started 102 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 3: when our use here, to how it changed during COVID, 103 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 3: I think is a really fascinating thing. And where we're 104 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: at now with these medications. I can't we're gonna talk 105 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: about it. I'm sorry. I don't want to jump ahead, 106 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 3: but I'm just so I'm so upset and I know 107 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 3: I should be at this point in my life much 108 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: more used to like these weirdly cynical bs moves of 109 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 3: a republic in judge or whatever promoting this as being 110 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 3: a safety issue. I know I shouldn't be surprised and 111 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: upset by it, but I am. And that's the part 112 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: that really bothers me right now is the argument they're 113 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: using against it is so bullshit and cymical that I 114 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: and again I don't think enough people are talking about it. 115 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: No, it is like I'm the same way, like I 116 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: should be. A lot of my work has been border reporting, 117 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: and like I should by now be Like, no, I shouldn't, 118 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: because those people are fucking terrible. Like there's a group 119 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: of journalists who just seem to have lost their capacity 120 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: to care for other human beings and can report on 121 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: human suffering without taking any toll on their on their 122 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: personal mental health, and they congregate on various Facebook groups 123 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: and in bars and expensive hotels or around the world, 124 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 2: and I don't like that. But like, similarly, a number 125 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: of conservative conservatives around word like anti immigration States used 126 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: to title forty two. They soon to keep Title forty 127 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: two right, citing the risk of COVID nineteen from migrants 128 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: crossing our borders. And these are the same fucking people 129 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: who have been like, we don't want to wear masks, 130 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: we shouldn't have vaccine mandates like it. Yeah, it is 131 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: infuriating that they can't just be like, yeah, I don't 132 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: think you should have the right to bodily autonomy, and 133 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: I don't care how I get there, so I'm just 134 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: going to use this troll ass methodology. 135 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: It bothers me that there were doctors involved in this case, 136 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: the court case, and it does bother me that there 137 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 3: are doctors that are fighting this. I mean, I get it. 138 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: If not every doctor wants to do an abortion, I 139 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: totally understand that. But to not stand for a woman's 140 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: autonomy over her own body is the part that I 141 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 3: can't get. I mean, it's like it's I'm not an 142 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 3: ethicist by any means, but that's like the bare minimum 143 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: is like you're supposed to believe in someone's autonomy over 144 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: there themselves, and the fact that it's being removed piece 145 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: by piece it should be bothering doctors who are who 146 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: are supposed to be following ethics, you know what I mean. 147 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 3: So I'm also a little bit from that end, I'm 148 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 3: mad at our own I'm mad at our own people, 149 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: I'm mad at doctors, and I am on my little 150 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 3: echo chamber in Twitter, where there's lots of doctors who 151 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 3: feel the same way I do, and I hear from them, 152 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: but I know that it's kind of there alone. I'm 153 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: not hearing it from other doctors out in the real world, 154 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 3: you know, and not enough at least. 155 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we should explain a little bit that, like the 156 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 2: original case, the complainants were doctors, right, who were claiming 157 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 2: that they were having to treat complications that arose from 158 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: medication abortion. 159 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: Is that right? 160 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're a part of it. I don't know how 161 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 3: big a part of it, or if they're just used 162 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 3: because they're like a lot of times people, for good 163 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: or bad reasons, will bring a doctor out in a 164 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 3: white coat at like a press conference, which is like, 165 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 3: you know, like we're just wearing white coats all the time, 166 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 3: you know, and just the sand in the background and 167 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 3: sort of add some sort of weight to the argument. 168 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 3: And so I don't know how much of it was 169 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 3: that in this situation, but I mean, the argument that 170 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 3: they're making that these medications are not safe just it's 171 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: a silly argument. I mean, we know that the mortality 172 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 3: rate for medical abortion is less dramatically than the mortality 173 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: rate for childbirth, and that changes too depending on if 174 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: you're like a white woman in a wealthy neighborhood or 175 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: a black woman. There's different mortality rates, but pretty much 176 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 3: across the board, it's going to be safer. I mean, 177 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 3: the chance of a serious complication is there. It can 178 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: happen any medication. It can happen penicillin, it can happen 179 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 3: higher rates. By the way, viagra. When viagra came out, 180 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 3: there was the first year it came out, there was 181 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: about five hundred and fifty deaths from viagra. I mean, 182 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 3: granted the cardiovascular problems patients had, whatever, but still there 183 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 3: was a if not without risk. You don't see any 184 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 3: judge from Texas, you know, coming out to talk about 185 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 3: viagra being an issue. No. 186 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: I think you're right to, isihlate that, like being pregnant 187 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: is also a risk, and much greater risk in many cases, 188 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: especially like you said, because of these different intersectional things 189 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: which can make it a greater risk for some people. 190 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: So I would love to talk about why these became 191 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 2: more Popular's the wrong way, but maybe more widely used 192 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 2: to facilitate abortions during COVID because that's super interesting. 193 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the long and the short of it is 194 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 3: when they first started doing these tasks. But I'm sorry, 195 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 3: when they first started doing these medication abortions, there was 196 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 3: a bit of a process that had to go into it, 197 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 3: Like doctors were worried. I mean, we're always conservative. Doctors 198 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 3: are always conservative. We always start with like probably more than 199 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 3: it's absolutely necessary, and then over time we do enough research, 200 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: we get enough like evidence behind us that we can 201 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 3: peel back parts of it. So when it first started, 202 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 3: you know, people wanted ultrasounds, lab tests make sure that 203 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: they weren't people weren't a mnemic or didn't have a 204 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 3: risk of bleeding. They wanted to make sure the livers 205 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 3: were okay. Labs are probably weren't totally necessary. The ultrasound, 206 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 3: I think scared people a lot. Or people really wanted 207 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: there always be an ultraound just to make sure there 208 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: wasn't like an ectopic pregnancy or a pregnancy, or it 209 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 3: doesn't occur where it's supposed to outside of where we 210 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 3: expected to and those can be dangerous and if you 211 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 3: do take these medications. You know, obviously you're going to 212 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 3: be a bit more of a risk if you don't 213 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 3: If you don't know, that's an ectopic pregnancy. So there 214 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 3: was a lot of a lot of things that people 215 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 3: had to do back then. Then then started to peel 216 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 3: away slowly, like doctors might were starting to be like, 217 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 3: all right, do I really need to get liver tests 218 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 3: if I'm going to give this patient a medicational abortion, 219 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 3: And those tests started to peel off slowly, And then 220 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: when COVID happened, basically people weren't able to go to 221 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 3: the doctor as much or as easily. Either weren't doctor 222 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 3: offices or or open. It was harder for people to 223 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 3: get to in the beginning, you know, and it only 224 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 3: got harder with COVID. So the ACLU actually sued the 225 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 3: FDA and they actually won, and through that that women 226 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 3: did have to come in anymore for these They could 227 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 3: all be done via like teleconference or a video chat basically, okay, 228 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 3: so which is a big game changer. 229 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes it much easier. And so 230 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: it used to be the case at least, so you 231 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: could get these things in the mail right particulably, After 232 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: some kind of teleconference or video chat. Is that still 233 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: Is that still the case in states where there isn't 234 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,239 Speaker 2: like the strictest kind of abortion ban or is it universal? 235 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: No, it's my understanding it's still as of now possible. 236 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 3: It's still available. You're supposed to be able to do it. 237 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 3: I think we're going to find that it's becoming more difficult. 238 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 3: We're already seeing cases. I mean, they've been highlighted on 239 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 3: on social media. How often they're happening now, I don't know, 240 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 3: but there we see cases now of you know, a 241 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 3: pharmacist not fulfilling medical abortion pills, and in the comments 242 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: section when you look at why why not, they're saying 243 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 3: because is now banned by a federal judge. So, I 244 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 3: mean it's not true it was. The Supreme Court has 245 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 3: you know, has okayed it for now. I mean for 246 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 3: now it's still okay and allowed. But there's going to 247 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 3: be enough confusion about it. There's going to be enough 248 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: worry about it that people are going to have a 249 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 3: harder time doing it, getting it, or even finding, you know, 250 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: people that are willing to do it. At this point, 251 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 3: there's probably a lot of concern from patients and medical providers, 252 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: so you know, even though it is technically still allowed, 253 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 3: I mean I don't know how for how long you know, 254 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 3: I am worried. And also I don't know if this 255 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 3: is really hindered you know, people being able to access this, 256 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 3: and I think it probably is. 257 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly hasn't made it smoother. 258 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: As you said, right that it only takes you know, 259 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: one person to have delay of a number of weeks 260 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: or whatever, and it might not be an option or 261 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: it might. 262 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: Not be as safe. 263 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: And how do you know how how far along these 264 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: these medical medication abortions are like generally advised. 265 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: You know, the medication abortions are considered safe in the 266 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 3: second and I think even parts of the third trimester, 267 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 3: but generally after the first trimester is when it's it's 268 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 3: considered a little bit more dangerous and most medical professionals 269 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 3: would want you to come in to have it done. 270 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 3: So I mean that's my understanding. I'm not obigian, I 271 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: should make that clear, but I think for for the 272 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 3: most part, within the first trimester, people generally consider that's 273 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: something that's manageable at home. Outside of that, I think 274 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 3: you're probably more likely to have the medical professional want 275 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 3: you to come in and see them. 276 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense, and in some states it's going 277 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: to be a lot harder, if not impossible, or countries 278 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: like I know, for instance, I've come across groups in 279 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: Myanmar were distributing these drugs. Abortion has been illegal, they're 280 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: more or less for since British colonial rule, since it 281 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: was United as a sort of state, not really a nation. 282 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 2: It's been a it's been illegal. They've sort of made 283 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: some moves towards it being less illegal, and then obviously 284 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: with the with the coup, it's become more illegal again, 285 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: and people there have been There was a website up 286 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: in the twenty twenty one about how they facilitated mutual 287 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: aid distribution of it, which I found super interesting, and 288 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 2: then at some point they obviously that that must have 289 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: got them some heat and they took it down. But 290 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: it's used all over the world in places where people 291 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: don't have access to care, right alongside being used here 292 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: where people may or may not have access to care, 293 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: which is pretty fun out. 294 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's funny that, like, you know, we're 295 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: comparing ourselves. I mean, it's you would think twenty twenty 296 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: three we wouldn't be you know, looking to other countries 297 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: to guide us at this point. You would hopefully we 298 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 3: would have figured this out by ourselves after everything. But yeah, 299 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny you look at the historical you 300 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: look at it from a global perspective, it is interesting. 301 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: It's really a global effort to try and get these 302 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: medications out to people. One of the major major companies 303 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 3: that sends these pills and mails these pills is in Europe, 304 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 3: and they try to get them to other countries. It 305 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 3: is sort of a global effort at this point to 306 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 3: try which is kind of cool. That's one good thing 307 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 3: about this. It shows you that most of the world 308 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 3: seems to be on board with this, whether or not 309 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: governments are or not. You know, I hear eighty percent 310 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: here in the United States is it's for it. I mean, 311 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: I think that sounds about right, you know. And the 312 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 3: fact that there's so many people in the country and 313 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: then the world trying to figure out ways to get 314 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 3: these medications to people. That's one, I guess, sort of 315 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 3: reaffirming thing about this. 316 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: It's impressive to see people just doing grassroots mutual laid 317 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: One thing that was very popular around the time of 318 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: the Dub's decision a lot of people were showing these 319 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: videos on do it yourself abortion pills or like homemade. 320 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: I think it was misaprostal, it may have been both. 321 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 2: It may have been mith for Bristowe as well. Obviously, 322 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: like this is empowering and like we want people to 323 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: be empowered to make ostigions about their own body. But 324 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 2: perhaps you could explain why, like it it's also suboptimal. 325 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's it is definitely suboptimal. I mean 326 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: I'm not every time I say something like that, there's 327 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 3: always some corner of the Internet that's like, well, you're 328 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 3: a shill for big farm or you're like part of 329 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 3: the medical industry or whatever, and yeah, sure whatever, But 330 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 3: I mean it is it's a risk. I mean, these medications, 331 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 3: like I said, they're safe, but they're not without risk. 332 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 3: You know, there are things that can occur when you 333 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 3: have this are contradications to some of these medications, Like 334 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: there's contradications to mif aprostone, like ectopic pregnancy like I mentioned. 335 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 3: And you can get that worked up to be evaluated, 336 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 3: or you can at least have the very basic questionnaire 337 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 3: filled out that would help at least give you the 338 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 3: hint if it's there, chronic adrenal failure, porphyria, inherited porphyria. 339 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: These are things that are that doctors who do this 340 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 3: think about and know and as part of the process 341 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 3: to get these medications, even if it's just a questionnaire 342 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: that you fill out online. So there are risks. There 343 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 3: are bad things that can have happened with these medications, 344 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 3: as there are with penicillin. Like I mentioned, I've seen 345 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 3: people with, you know, life threatening allergies to to penicillin. 346 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: I've seen people with who have liver failure from basic 347 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 3: stuff that you know people take all the time, like 348 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 3: tail and all. So you know, it's it's It does 349 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 3: make me very nervous, and I like, do it yourself 350 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 3: is I like that that people are trying to find 351 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: ways around it. But and I hope we never get 352 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 3: to a place where this is that's absolutely necessary. I hope, 353 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 3: you know, but I understand why people are curious about 354 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,719 Speaker 3: it and why you're looking into it and reading about it. 355 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: I obviously I'm not going to ever really promote do 356 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 3: it yourself medicine to that Farbard degree. 357 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, like at someone I use insulin every day, right, 358 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 2: and people have been making their own insulin I've seen 359 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 2: on the internet for for a long time, and I 360 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 2: find it super fascinating. Intern also costs fuckle to produce, 361 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: like like a cup of sense, and it costs hundreds 362 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: of dollars to buy. Folks can accuse me of being 363 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: a show for Big Farmer, but I have plenty of 364 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 2: publications pointing in the other direction. 365 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: You and me both, brother, Yeah, yeah, look at us, 366 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 3: two guys just breaking in the pharma dough. 367 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: That's it. 368 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's why I'm recording in this shed provided 369 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 2: by FISA. No, and yeah, there is. These things are 370 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: not expensive to make, they shouldn't be expensive to buy, 371 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: and they can be had extremely safely. And the things 372 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: that are stopping you from accessing them cheaply and safely 373 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: and easily politicians and also pharmaceutical companies sometimes. 374 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 3: You know. That's the funny thing too, is that you 375 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: think for like, these right wingers are always talking about 376 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 3: like relaxing regulations and whatever. It's like, I wonder if 377 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 3: they recognize that on some level, what this is doing 378 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 3: is it's just going to impinge on you know, quote 379 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 3: unquote innovation in pharma. Like if you're a farm company 380 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 3: and you're thinking about some medication that could be used 381 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 3: for this, or you're thinking about creating a new medication 382 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 3: for something that could, in the slightest way be deemed 383 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 3: inappropriate by some judge somewhere. And then if they're making 384 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 3: the decision, not the FDA, Like if you're a farm industry, 385 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 3: you may be like, it screwed. I'm not going to 386 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 3: worry about that medication at all. You know, nothing else. 387 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 3: This is going to cut back on innovation in pharmacy. 388 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, like anything with a contry indication for being pregnant 389 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 2: would be vulnerable to this. Right, we should probably explain 390 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: that the use of myth of pristone as an abortion 391 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: drug was approved by the FDA in an expedited process, right, 392 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 2: and that was what was being challenged. Can you explain 393 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: why although it's faster, that doesn't mean it's any less thorough. 394 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 2: In my understanding, I might be wrong, the FDA went like, yeah, 395 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: fuck it, let's give it a try and see what happens. 396 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: No, I mean it's a very good question. I mean 397 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 3: we do have safety data behind it. So again, you're 398 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 3: exactly right. This is not done in a vacuum. It's 399 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 3: not done haphazardly. I mean there is there still always 400 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 3: is a pretty strict process to go through for these medications. 401 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 3: It kind of it's the same thing that we had 402 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 3: to deal with with operation warp speed one of the 403 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 3: worst names are a very important medical advancement. So, you know, 404 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 3: people like, how can these things be safe? It's happened 405 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 3: so quickly, and it's not really true. I mean, there 406 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 3: is years of research behind all these things. There's years 407 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 3: of research behind it. There was a study from the 408 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 3: Newly Journal of Medicine about the safety of these abortion pills. 409 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: It had been studied worldwide. It had been looked at 410 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 3: for a while. You know, because abortion is so common 411 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 3: and there are so many of so many done that 412 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 3: it makes it easier to see the results. It makes 413 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 3: it easier to see the numbers. Part of the reason 414 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 3: we were able to follow COVID so well and get 415 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 3: information so quickly was because it was everywhere, and when 416 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 3: it's everywhere, it does raise the numbers. It makes it 417 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 3: easier to get people enrolled in the study, it makes 418 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 3: it easier to make a study happen. So that's kind 419 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 3: of what was happening here. This is something that was 420 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 3: there wasn't a lot of question about again, are there 421 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 3: risks to the medication. Absolutely, there's risks to every single 422 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 3: medication that you get. I mean, I've heard toxicologists say 423 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 3: that if thailandol had to go through the same vetting 424 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 3: process that we have medications go through today, that thialanol 425 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 3: wouldn't make the cut. Wow. And as a liver specialist myself, 426 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 3: I can attest to that. I mean, how talanol is 427 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: a great medication if it's used correctly, but I've also 428 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 3: seen it cause a lot of liver failure. It's a 429 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 3: very common cause of it. So there's there's a pretty 430 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 3: strict and there always is a pretty strict method to 431 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 3: to the FDA when it comes to this sort of thing. 432 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: It's not done haphazardly, right, And I think most of 433 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 2: the people attacking it and not attacking it from a 434 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: place of deep concern for the health of people who 435 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 2: can get pregnant. It's quite the opposite. It's an attempt 436 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 2: to control people's bodies, right, right. 437 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're not. These are the same people. They're not 438 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: concerned about the fact that the mortality rate in like 439 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 3: African American women who are pregnant is so much higher. 440 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: They'll never hear them talk about that. They don't give 441 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 3: a damn unless, of course, they want to somehow cynically 442 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 3: tie this into like racism or something. They'll find a 443 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 3: way to twist it in this weird way to be like, yes, 444 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 3: you see liv Prostone is racist or something. You know, 445 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 3: so I yeah, yeah, sorry. 446 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 2: No, Yeah, it's cynical and asinine empathetic, but sadly like 447 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: it's also the reality. Yeah, I wonder, like, obviously none 448 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: of us can see the future, and we've talked about 449 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 2: how mister prostal can be used on its own if 450 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken, right. 451 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not as good, it's not as good if 452 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 3: it's used together. 453 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 2: But yeah, do you foresee a world where like that 454 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 2: is targeted next? 455 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, if they're really serious about that, they're 456 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 3: going to try. I mean, I think at the end 457 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 3: of the day, we can keep Zelots out of the 458 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: Supreme Court somehow. 459 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: In a while before we get another crack at that. 460 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, then I think we should be okay, because I mean, 461 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: it's it's a bad argument. The argument doesn't really hold up. 462 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 3: I mean, some judge interpreting the medical data with or 463 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 3: without the help of some you know, quasi scientific group 464 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 3: of like pro life doctors. It's just not going to 465 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 3: hold up to what the FDA has done and has 466 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 3: to go through. So I don't I don't know, I 467 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 3: don't know. I want to say, I really want to say, 468 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to be an issue, but 469 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: I can't guarantee it because the fact that you know, 470 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 3: this is such a relatively safe drug and it's called 471 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 3: the question, I mean, it's pretty brazen. I think that 472 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 3: they're doing this and well they do it again with 473 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 3: other medications. Yeah, probably well win though I hope not. 474 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: But yeah, I think this is setting they're setting basically 475 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 3: a roadmap for this to be done again and again 476 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 3: for for medications they don't like. 477 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and those are all going The medications they don't 478 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: like are all going to affect a certain group of people, right, Like, 479 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: that's right, That's just that seems to be the sort 480 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 2: of target group for, like you said, a very small 481 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: percentage of the of the population who are just on 482 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 2: their culture or bullshit and don't really care how this 483 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: affects thousands of people's lives. Obviously, Like folks are also 484 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 2: facing like they can't access gender firming care and lots 485 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: of places. Right, This is the other massive area of 486 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: healthcare that the Republicans seem to be very willing to 487 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: ignore the and some Democrats ignore the evidence on it 488 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 2: and just attack people for culture war reasons. And I 489 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 2: know that one thing folks do there is organized mutual 490 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 2: aid networks to help people access medications that they need 491 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: for their gender firm and care with medications like this 492 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: is it like like you said, there are lots of 493 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 2: contraindications and it's not always safe, Like are these things 494 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: that people like people will be inclined and get to 495 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 2: be like, oh shit, maybe I should stock up. Maybe 496 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 2: I should like load my medicine cabinet, and maybe we 497 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 2: could discuss that, Like you said that there are risks 498 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: that come alongside that. 499 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I certainly would understand if I was 500 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 3: in a position where I thought my bodily autonomy could 501 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 3: be going away anytime soon. I think I could see 502 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 3: why someone would stock up on it. I mean, I 503 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 3: don't know enough about the medication to tell you about 504 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 3: its shelf life. I know that it is just require 505 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 3: some special handling, So I don't know if it's the 506 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 3: kind of thing that you can keep for long periods 507 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 3: of time. But you know, if that part of it 508 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 3: was worked out, I certainly don't see I mean, I 509 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 3: could see why you'd want it again, it comes down 510 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 3: to the do it yourself nature of it. Now, the 511 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 3: beauty of this is these what these what we've seen 512 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 3: with these medications is when we did the COVID, we 513 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 3: took it when COVID happened, and we kind of took 514 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 3: it out of the doctor's hands and made it more 515 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: directly to the patient. Actually, the outcomes weren't much different, 516 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 3: so that seems to be a very reaffirming thing. But 517 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 3: you know, I still I would like for there to 518 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 3: be medical involvement in this. I would like doctors to 519 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 3: be involved in this, you know. 520 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, perhaps we are progressing towards a place where like 521 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: technology can help with some of that and take away 522 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: the liability from doctors in places where they could face 523 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: a long time in jail. 524 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's that's the other thing. It's going 525 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 3: to be interesting to see how this pans out, like 526 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 3: from doctors in the future, if there's gonna be people 527 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 3: still willing to learn these skills, you know, because not 528 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: every abortion can be done you know, medically, still going 529 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 3: to be a need for for the the more older 530 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 3: fashion forms of abortion that's still going to need to 531 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 3: be done. So, you know, I'm hoping that people are 532 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 3: still going to be willing to learn from this, and 533 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 3: if anything, I'm actually hoping that people young medical students 534 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 3: are more interested to learn from it. So we'll see 535 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 3: how it goes. Like you know, when when COVID first started, 536 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 3: there was a huge burst of people interested in medical 537 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 3: school and going into infectious disease. But then you know, 538 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 3: over time, and in the ER for that matter, too, 539 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 3: they saw the need for it. They saw the call 540 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 3: to arms, you know, and it took three years of 541 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 3: seeing what kind of bullshit ID doctors and ER doctors 542 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 3: had to deal with before those medical school numbers dropped 543 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 3: way off and people interested in those fields. You know. 544 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 3: In fact, ER, for people trying to go into ER, 545 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 3: they have to go through this whole match process, which 546 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 3: is like a big deal. Like it's a stressful thing 547 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 3: where you try to get into the best place you can. 548 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 3: And R has always been a pretty like sought after field. 549 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 3: It's not the most competitive, but you know, there is 550 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 3: there is a good amount of competition to get into 551 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 3: the good places. And this was like the first year 552 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 3: I remember where there was a ton of unfilled spots 553 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 3: at good institutions too, So, like you know, how I 554 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 3: do worry will this be the same sort of thing. 555 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: Will there be an uptick of people interested in women's 556 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 3: healthcare and and providing that vital that vital need. I 557 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 3: think there probably will be, But will it be sustained? 558 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 3: I don't know. Will they just give up after seeing 559 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 3: how much bullshit has thrown their way? 560 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: It's totally feasible, Yeah, I mean, if you're looking, it 561 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: has to be like an idea, Like my sister is 562 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 2: an ob gyn, and like does my sister doesn't live 563 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 2: in the United States, who doesn't have to deal with 564 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: any of this bullshit and so like, but very much 565 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 2: enjoys a job and it's very passionate about it. But 566 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: I can see how doing get here. It would have 567 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: to be almost a political idea or your commitment as well. 568 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: Like you can't practice your your your career in half 569 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 2: the state. I don't even know if you can go 570 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: to medical school in like states where it's banned, and 571 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: like that's a. 572 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 3: Really interesting question. I wonder if it will affect the 573 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 3: medical training in medical school. Yeah, in places where. That's 574 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 3: really interesting and scary now that I think about it. It, Yeah, 575 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 3: it's gonna be, It's going to be available for people. 576 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 3: There's always going to be organizations fighting to do this 577 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 3: and to get it out there. But how how hard 578 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 3: it's going to be to find a provider to help 579 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 3: you with this that in the future, I'm hoping it 580 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 3: does not become a problem. 581 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I did all these little sort of it's 582 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: really important, I guess like that folks do whatever they 583 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 2: can to preserve these rights because generally, like the state 584 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 2: doesn't give back power that it's able to take from people, 585 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 2: and this could mean a lot like this, And I'm 586 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 2: not like trying to conflate fucking having to have a 587 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 2: vaccine to breathe on someone and and like, you know, 588 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: like that is not really attacking your body autonomy. Like 589 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 2: you're attacking someone else's body autonomy if you want to 590 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: give them an effect your disease, right, But when it 591 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: takes away things like this, they you know, like like 592 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: that has other consequences. Even if you're not a person 593 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 2: who can get pregnant, and you don't think you're ever 594 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 2: going to be getting somewhat pregnant like this should matter to. 595 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: You because you know autonomy should matter to you. 596 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 3: It seems a matter to most of the people in 597 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 3: the country, So I mean that's a part of this 598 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 3: I don't understand. I mean, I guess it's all ideologically driven, 599 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 3: but because it doesn't seem like a winning proposition if 600 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 3: you're a politician to do something this unpopular. But I 601 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 3: don't know. I don't know much about politics. I suppose yeah. 602 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 2: I mean, what is popular and what wins elections in 603 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 2: the United States can be vastly disparate things, as we've seen, 604 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: given the system which is deliberately organized to befuddle the 605 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 2: results of a popular vote. 606 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 3: Okvit. 607 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: I wonder if there's anything else you wanted to discuss around. 608 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: This issue of abortion and bodily autonomy. 609 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: Obviously it's going to be one that plays out massively 610 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four, but I. 611 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 3: Want to make it clear. I mean, this should be 612 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 3: pretty evident my stance on it. But I do believe 613 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 3: abortion is essential and evidence based healthcare. It's in that 614 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 3: evidence based part of it. I think is important to 615 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 3: reiterate because we do have data on it, we do 616 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 3: have data that it is safe, we do have data 617 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 3: that it's safer than some of the other options. And 618 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 3: if it's removed as an option, we are not only 619 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 3: taking away, you know, a woman's right to attimey over 620 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 3: her own body, but we're putting them at more health 621 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 3: risks potentially for it. And you know, I'm not an 622 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: er doctor, I'm not obi gin, but I can guarantee 623 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 3: that they're gonna have to deal with a lot more 624 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: problems because of this. If that happens, they're gonna be 625 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 3: dealing with a lot more complications and difficulties because of it. 626 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one thing I wanted to hit that I 627 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 2: totally forgot about. I don't want to I don't want 628 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: to phrase this in terms of like people wanting to 629 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: end a pregnancy have any more or less right to 630 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: do so than people needing to end a pregnancy, because 631 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 2: everyone should have the right to choose what happens to 632 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: their body equally. 633 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, but. 634 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 2: I am I believe I'm right in thinking that many 635 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 2: of these drugs are relied upon by people who have 636 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 2: miscarried or have a pregnancy. 637 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: Isn't compatible with life, right And. 638 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean though the horror stories about 639 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 3: women that are forced to carry if you know, baby's 640 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 3: a term that are not compatible life for you know, 641 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 3: a severe critical illness. It's those are horrifying. And these 642 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 3: are medications that can be done again at home for 643 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 3: some For some patients it can be done at home, 644 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 3: which is you know, not great. You know, it's still 645 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 3: not gonna be maybe a fun process, but it'll be 646 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 3: a much better process for them, much less traumatic, I 647 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 3: would hope, you know, than having to to have it 648 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 3: done later on and in a hospital in a much 649 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 3: more clinical, cold setting. And we try to make these 650 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 3: things as good as possible. Our nurses are amazing, and 651 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 3: our doctors who do this are are compassionate. But you know, 652 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 3: if someone could do something safely at home, you know, 653 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 3: and it can be done safely, I don't see why not. 654 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, it can the dignity and privacy of your own 655 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 2: setting where you use your home or you know whatever 656 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 2: with your family, then yeah, as opposed to being forced 657 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 2: to carry a baby which isn't compatible with life, like, 658 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 2: that's got to really. 659 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: Fuck you up. And it's I don't know, I don't. 660 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 2: Think people are thinking about what they're doing to other 661 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: people when they make these these I don't know, horrible decisions, But. 662 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope they didn't get to keep making them. 663 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: I guess. 664 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 2: We can all interpret that however we want. Are there 665 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 2: any Are there any organizations that you'd suggest folks follow 666 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 2: get involved with, like their groups that are helping to 667 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: facilitate access to care, either where it's difficult or just 668 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 2: trying to campaign to keep it legal. 669 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 3: You know, I know there's been a lot of criticisms 670 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 3: in the past towards its organization from all sides, But 671 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 3: you know, I've known a lot of people who work 672 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 3: for Planned Parenthood, and I still think they do good work. 673 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 3: You know, They're not perfect by any means, and they 674 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 3: have valid criticisms from both from really from from a 675 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 3: couple of different angles. But still the people I know 676 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 3: they are working there are aren't doing their best and 677 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 3: are really want to help. And then there are international 678 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 3: organizations still that are involved in the abortion making the 679 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 3: abortion pill accessible, and there's a lot of different ways 680 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 3: to get to that. I don't have one in particular 681 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 3: that I would recommend, but the one that I have 682 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 3: worked with people that I've met in seen and talked 683 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 3: to and have learned so much from a lot of 684 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 3: those people are from Planned parenthood. 685 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, And like you said, they have been criticized, 686 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 2: but they've also stepped up to meet like what is 687 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 2: a pretty terrible situation. And they're building more clinics on 688 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: the borders of states where you don't have the right 689 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 2: to terminate your pregnancy so that people can travel. And 690 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 2: yet it's pretty fucked up that that's what we're doing 691 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 2: now we have the underground railroad for abortion kind of thing. 692 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean it takes a big organization to 693 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 2: deal with the organization that is the state or you know, 694 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 2: the state of Texas or whatever. 695 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: It's done really well. 696 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 2: Is there anything like you'd like to plug or do 697 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 2: you like to tell people where they can find you? 698 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 3: So I'm available on Twitter at the House of Pod 699 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 3: if you do Twitter, and you could listen to our 700 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 3: podcast the House of Pod. It's pretty much everywhere you 701 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 3: find your podcast. And guests range from like world expert 702 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 3: physicians to like Garrison Davis, so like you knowing those 703 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 3: two things, they're an expert of their own way. And 704 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 3: and I'm sure I'll get you on soon enough whether 705 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 3: you like it or not. And so we get a 706 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 3: lot of the different guests. The range is pretty wide, 707 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 3: and we talk about medical related health topics and try 708 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 3: to do it in a relatively informal way, and so 709 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 3: it's I think it's relatively fun. It's been really educational 710 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 3: for me. I'm really enjoying doing it and I get 711 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 3: to be cool people like you. So it's a good show, 712 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 3: I think. But I'm biased because it's my show. 713 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I enjoyed. People should listen. 714 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you very much. 715 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, mate. 716 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,800 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 717 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 718 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 719 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 720 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 3: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 721 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 3: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.