Speaker 1: Hello, It's Steve Fishman from Orbit Media and this is
Speaker 1: Get the Money and Run. Today is our final episode,
Speaker 1: and well, a lot of finales disappoint I assure you
Speaker 1: this one does not over to Ben.
Speaker 2: You are listening to The Burden season four Get the
Speaker 2: Money and Run. I'm Benadere and this is episode seven
Speaker 2: Batel Peril.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we talked about how when you're robbing banks and
Speaker 3: at the height of your prison Joe Persona basically cut
Speaker 3: your conscience off, like totally shut down your sense of morality.
Speaker 3: Did your conscience then come back when you're in solitary.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my conscience just came back with a fury. He
Speaker 4: woke up like, oh, okay, we'll show you on It
Speaker 4: doesn't come back and say, oh we'll protect you. We're
Speaker 4: gonna only give you a little bit of your shit
Speaker 4: at one time. It dumps it all on you. And
Speaker 4: I had stopped kind of growing and being aware, like
Speaker 4: trying to have any self awareness, probably around age eleven,
Speaker 4: and now I'd done all these terrible adult things and
Speaker 4: I had to deal with it with a very fragile conscience,
Speaker 4: very fragile awareness, and so instantly almost incant. He was like,
Speaker 4: I can never get back this. I'm disqualified, and now
Speaker 4: I don't want to go be back be a bad
Speaker 4: guy anymore because that sucks. But now I don't want
Speaker 4: to go and be a good guy because that's impossible.
Speaker 4: So you know what I probably should do. It is
Speaker 4: probably just like save everyone time, just kill myself. Like
Speaker 4: that's exactly the logic. I think.
Speaker 3: Disqualified is a really interesting word.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I felt like I just didn't have I didn't
Speaker 4: have any right to want to go play in that
Speaker 4: arena a good peace. I knew good people, I'd heard
Speaker 4: a lot of good people. So the conscience was not
Speaker 4: kind to me because it did not It didn't say, oh,
Speaker 4: we love You're gonna take care of you. No, man,
Speaker 4: I was I was suffocating under the the ultifying weight
Speaker 4: of remorse and grief and shame. What comes up is
Speaker 4: sometimes down deep in me as that where I remember
Speaker 4: something and just a shame and the grief remorse of
Speaker 4: who I was just comes up, and yeah, man, that's
Speaker 4: that's what it was.
Speaker 5: Then Part one, go for Broken.
Speaker 4: Joe.
Speaker 5: What was scary about that? What was scary about changing?
Speaker 4: Well, what I realized was as I started thinking about changing,
Speaker 4: I realized that, oh, Fuck, that's hard. I'm fearless about
Speaker 4: taking people in a revolt. I'll go down to heartbeat.
Speaker 4: I'm fearless about walking in a cell with a knife.
Speaker 4: I'm fearless all day long about that. I don't want
Speaker 4: to go inside myself and demand that I change. So
Speaker 4: I decided to change my idea strong and weak and say, Okay,
Speaker 4: i've been thinking I'm strong, I'm actually weak. I want
Speaker 4: to get strong. How do I get real strong? I'm
Speaker 4: gonna go know myself. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go
Speaker 4: figure this out. Well, I started writing, and then I
Speaker 4: just got a sheet of paper and I said, Mom,
Speaker 4: what are the stories I've been telling people all my
Speaker 4: life that means something to me? They communicate something about me.
Speaker 4: Oh I'm brave because of this. Oh you know what,
Speaker 4: I'm fearless because of this. We all have stories that
Speaker 4: we're carrying this little box with us, and they are
Speaker 4: identity stories. They are the stories we used to tell people.
Speaker 4: This is who we are, because these are stories we
Speaker 4: tell ourselves of who we are. And so I thought,
Speaker 4: what are the stories that I tell and have been
Speaker 4: telling since I was a child about who I am
Speaker 4: that represent me? Stabbing my dad at my mother's funeral,
Speaker 4: like all the stories, like what are the stories who
Speaker 4: make up my sense of identity? And then I would
Speaker 4: wake up and say, Okay, which one do I want
Speaker 4: to write? That's when I started came out with the
Speaker 4: concert of owning your story. Because you can't know who
Speaker 4: you are if you don't know the origins of things.
Speaker 4: You have to like realize what parts of your story
Speaker 4: are wrong, false, don't fit. And that was super helpful.
Speaker 4: Now I'm thinking, I gotta be on the line and
Speaker 4: I don't want guys fucking with me. I gotta like
Speaker 4: investigate on the page how to become a nice guy,
Speaker 4: a good person soft. And the irony is that in
Speaker 4: order to give myself the space and nobody would fuck
Speaker 4: with me so I could be in my cell to
Speaker 4: like do all the soft investigation of myself, because I
Speaker 4: had to dial up my persona on the tier like
Speaker 4: don't fuck with me, man, don't you know who I am?
Speaker 4: I had to continue to perform hyper maleness to get
Speaker 4: to learn all this time to read and write letters
Speaker 4: to people and try to change my life.
Speaker 3: How difficult was that to have sort of the the
Speaker 3: two different personas one one where you're acting tough and
Speaker 3: then the one where you're trying to, I guess, go
Speaker 3: soft in a way.
Speaker 4: It was very tough because remember guys, guys who walk
Speaker 4: around like they're ready to stab you. It only works
Speaker 4: if everyone thinks they're gonna that you will stab them.
Speaker 4: And I had to do that several times. I'm like
Speaker 4: trying to trying to tell myself that that's our ego,
Speaker 4: that's our ego, Like you can't, you can't take that
Speaker 4: stuff personally. So I actually have these like real things
Speaker 4: that are happening, and then I get to try and
Speaker 4: like say, okay, so I agree with this new teaching
Speaker 4: that I'm that I'm learning and stuff. It makes sense
Speaker 4: to me. I like it. I like I like it.
Speaker 4: Theoretically it makes sense. I'd already been changing my life
Speaker 4: a little bit with it, so I want to keep
Speaker 4: leaning into it. But I would plenty times have an
Speaker 4: opportunity or something would get kicked up in me, and
Speaker 4: then I would get to like constructed, like I was
Speaker 4: able to start realizing under all these acts of rage
Speaker 4: or all these acts of indignancy in me, basically what
Speaker 4: they were is it was when the rager come up
Speaker 4: it was disguising the fact that I felt wounded. That
Speaker 4: was the big, big, fucking lesson. And this kept coming
Speaker 4: up over and over and over again, and being able
Speaker 4: to develop that distance from the moment is like, Okay,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be able to get out of here, I'm
Speaker 4: going to be able to stop putting holds them in.
Speaker 3: Did you start thinking about other people in your life
Speaker 3: who had traumatized you. I mean, I'm thinking mostly of
Speaker 3: your dad.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, you know, when I started investigating my wounds,
Speaker 4: it was like they all these old child wounds would
Speaker 4: come out right, like I feel I see it's I'm
Speaker 4: I'm remembering this episode from my childhood. That's where it
Speaker 4: all went back to. And then I was like, oh shit,
Speaker 4: my dad he had a really shitty childhood, just like me.
Speaker 4: Then I started looking at that and I knew my
Speaker 4: dad's past and when he was young, my grandfather used
Speaker 4: to put him in a chicken coop. My grandfather really
Speaker 4: was mad at mins treated my dad like he was
Speaker 4: the worst kid. He had some deep animosity in my dad.
Speaker 4: I think my grandfather may have thought that my dad
Speaker 4: wasn't his even so, my dad got treated very badly, humiliated, humiliated, humiliated,
Speaker 4: over and over, which is why he wanted to get
Speaker 4: out of the house at sixteen to marry my mother.
Speaker 4: That's when I was born. He just wanted to get
Speaker 4: the hell out. So I knew he had been treated
Speaker 4: terribly brutally, and then he grew up and he did
Speaker 4: the same thing. In all my life, I had thought
Speaker 4: my dad was a monster. People would even tell me, man,
Speaker 4: let's do a monster. And I liked thinking of him
Speaker 4: as a monster because then I could think about the
Speaker 4: bad things I wanted to do to him. Because I
Speaker 4: made him into this object. He's a monster. He's not
Speaker 4: a person. He's like the other He's not us, he's
Speaker 4: not like me. But when I examined my life and
Speaker 4: I started seeing all the bad things that I had done,
Speaker 4: and I understood where it came from, and I was
Speaker 4: able to look at my father and say, oh, he's
Speaker 4: doing these because of his wounds, his early humiliations, his
Speaker 4: early trauma. He's no different than me than this monster.
Speaker 4: Who I now understood was this little boy who had
Speaker 4: been brutalized and humiliated and traumatized and behave badly. He
Speaker 4: wasn't a monster. Yes, he did monsters things but he
Speaker 4: was no longer a monster me. He was a kid
Speaker 4: who didn't ask for any of the shit that happened
Speaker 4: to him. And then it was like, oh fuck, I
Speaker 4: was a kid. I didn't ask for any of it.
Speaker 4: I didn't ask for the beatings. I didn't ask to
Speaker 4: witness the trauma that he inflicted on my brother. I
Speaker 4: didn't ask for the trauma of that. I didn't ask
Speaker 4: for the death of my mother. I didn't ask for
Speaker 4: any of the none of it. None of it. And
Speaker 4: it happened, and he shaped me, and I grew up
Speaker 4: and I did monsters things, but I wasn't a monster.
Speaker 4: Being able to have an understanding of my father to
Speaker 4: give him compassion. That gave me that phrase, Oh well,
Speaker 4: then he's not a monster. He did monstrous thing, He's
Speaker 4: not a monster came back to me and I could
Speaker 4: appropriate for myself and say, oh, yeah, I'm not I
Speaker 4: did monster, but I'm not a monster either. It gave
Speaker 4: me like this tag, this tagline that I could remind
Speaker 4: myself when I would start feeling super shameful, that which
Speaker 4: was you know, really really heavy on those early days
Speaker 4: because I just felt like, fuck it, I'm gonna always
Speaker 4: fuck up I'm just I'm a terrible, evil person. I
Speaker 4: might as well just kill myself because I'm gonna fail
Speaker 4: at this thing to try and get better too. So
Speaker 4: I needed help and that line I did monsters things
Speaker 4: when I'm not a monster. Just like I gave it
Speaker 4: to my dad, I was able to use it for
Speaker 4: myself and that thing that gave me some rich propulsion
Speaker 4: in the in a direction away from from shame, just
Speaker 4: compassion for myself, you know. But I first extended it
Speaker 4: to my dad, and then it came back to me.
Speaker 6: We'll be right back.
Speaker 5: Part two.
Speaker 3: First day out, Jo, Do you remember your last day
Speaker 3: in prison?
Speaker 4: I woke up and showered, changed, shaved shit. I did
Speaker 4: not shine my shoes because I only was going to
Speaker 4: walk out with shower shoes because I gave my shoes
Speaker 4: to somebody else. And then I just waited when I
Speaker 4: went to breakfast and then went to my cell, and
Speaker 4: I waited to be called. And sure enough, at a
Speaker 4: certain point, pretty early, it's like loyal, roll it up,
Speaker 4: roll it up. And so I go and they escort
Speaker 4: me to the administration building, and now they start processing
Speaker 4: me out. Sign this sign, that sign, this fingerprint, that
Speaker 4: photo of this here's your clothes. Change into these because
Speaker 4: your My family had sent me closed ahead of time.
Speaker 4: And then they brought me to the gate. When they
Speaker 4: brought me to the gate, and they asshole guards like
Speaker 4: all right, see you soon, like I'm coming back, and
Speaker 4: I was given a one hundred and fifty dollars check.
Speaker 4: So first thing I do when I walk out of
Speaker 4: the prison that I'd spent seventy years for for robbing banks,
Speaker 4: the first thing I do is I go to a bank.
Speaker 4: And when I go to a bank, this time, I'm
Speaker 4: going to make an entirely different experience. And I'm like,
Speaker 4: I'm this is momentous, man, this is I'm different man
Speaker 4: than I went in. And I have a different relationship
Speaker 4: to banking. So I walk up and I put both
Speaker 4: my hands on the doors, and I open the doors
Speaker 4: and walk in and I kind of walk. I need
Speaker 4: to sign the so I go to the counter. I
Speaker 4: put both my hands out on the counter and then
Speaker 4: I look up and I go wait in line, and
Speaker 4: I look at every camera in there, dumbly just like
Speaker 4: what what what? Just looking at all of them, just
Speaker 4: getting my face. I wanted to be known, I wanted
Speaker 4: to be seen. And then I got my cash and
Speaker 4: I walked out, and then I had this experience as
Speaker 4: my first brush with grief, because you know, I'm out there,
Speaker 4: I'm doing good. I'm happy, I mean as happy as
Speaker 4: you can be. I'm carrying grief with me. Obviously, I'm
Speaker 4: so sorrow and and all sorts of fear and all
Speaker 4: sorts of things, but I'm really generally like, oh man,
Speaker 4: it feels good to be out. So at one point
Speaker 4: I go to buy something and there's this guy in there,
Speaker 4: this young guy, pimply big Ol'adam's apple. I think you're
Speaker 4: probably be a college kid, but sweetheart, and then I
Speaker 4: come up with my little you know, bullshit postcards and
Speaker 4: gum and whatever, and then he takes my money. My
Speaker 4: money falls out of his hand, and then like he
Speaker 4: triesking me the receipt and it falls on the floor.
Speaker 4: It's just it was like so clumsy, but as he
Speaker 4: was as he bent down to pick up the receipt,
Speaker 4: and he was just so apologetic to me, apologetic to me.
Speaker 4: It was like in that moment, flashbacks of all the
Speaker 4: shit that I had done in prison, Like it just
Speaker 4: came flooding that moment, and I felt terrible that I,
Speaker 4: this innocent young man was in front of me and
Speaker 4: all the terrible things I had done, and I mean
Speaker 4: it was just, yeah, you know, just the level of
Speaker 4: abuse I'd done to other people, the dorsis, the stabbings,
Speaker 4: the ship on guards, the fires and the tears, the
Speaker 4: making of the knives, the the robbing, the terrorizing all
Speaker 4: the people I did, the treating the people who love
Speaker 4: me shitty. I just felt so it felt like I
Speaker 4: was gonna just rob this kid of innocence in a way,
Speaker 4: and I wanted to get out of there as fast,
Speaker 4: but I just grabbed myself and I ran out. And
Speaker 4: I'm so not ready for fucking good people, man, Like
Speaker 4: I'm gonna always feel like fucking terrible ship in front
Speaker 4: of him. I can't let this keep happening and running out,
Speaker 4: you know. Yeah, man, it was exhausting to be free, Joe.
Speaker 3: You spent you spent a lot of time in prison
Speaker 3: thinking about your dad and your relationship with your dad.
Speaker 3: What was it like when you first saw him after
Speaker 3: getting released.
Speaker 4: I saw him when I exited the plane, and there's
Speaker 4: my dad. He's my dad. I'd done all my heart
Speaker 4: work on him already, so I just hug him, I
Speaker 4: love him. We cry, you know, we weep like men.
Speaker 4: But there was one conversation that solidified what we would
Speaker 4: try to be the rest of this time and kind
Speaker 4: of got to, which was this, Dad, So I fucked
Speaker 4: up really bad. You fucked up really bad. Why don't
Speaker 4: we do this. Let my fucked up shit cancel all
Speaker 4: your fucked up shit, and then your fucked up shit
Speaker 4: cancel out my fucked up shit, and let's just start over.
Speaker 4: Let's just do that. Boom, clean slate, turn the fucking page. Yeah,
Speaker 4: let's just have a fresh start. And that's what we
Speaker 4: chose to do, just like that. Let's just fresh started. Okay,
Speaker 4: fresh start. We'll be right back.
Speaker 6: M Part three.
Speaker 4: Gone in a moment, well, you know, for those of
Speaker 4: us who are under a three strike serra law is
Speaker 4: when I like when I got out, there's a mistake
Speaker 4: you could make that meant that you're never getting out
Speaker 4: of prison again. It'll wash you up. One mistake, and
Speaker 4: that one mistake. Many men who came out of prison,
Speaker 4: when they would be in reinc two programs they would
Speaker 4: deal with, they would talk about that moment in which
Speaker 4: they had to choose, am I gonna walk away, or
Speaker 4: am I gonna wash myself up, never get out of prison.
Speaker 4: It's right here, It's decision is right now. It's like
Speaker 4: I am my life is imperiled in this moment, and
Speaker 4: not just in peril, like oh, I might go to
Speaker 4: prison for a couple years, like I'll never get out again.
Speaker 4: And they call that the moment of fatal peril. Crocodile Cafe,
Speaker 4: you know, I'd worked at one before, and here we
Speaker 4: are at this one, and we're on the patio and
Speaker 4: there's this homeless guy across the street starts walking in traffic,
Speaker 4: and there's all this horn. That's why we're paying attention
Speaker 4: because everyone's trying to stop their honking in him, and
Speaker 4: he gets so agitated. He stands right in the middle
Speaker 4: of the road and he puts his arms out like
Speaker 4: Jesus on the cross, and he throws his head back
Speaker 4: and he's just standing in the middle the center line.
Speaker 4: And so the traffic picks up again. It starts going slowly,
Speaker 4: slowly by I mean, he's just drawn, you know, dramatic there,
Speaker 4: and people are saying stuff about him in the patio,
Speaker 4: and I feel bad for him. I have solidarity. I
Speaker 4: get it, dude, in those days, like I'm feeling a
Speaker 4: lot of compassion. And then he comes and he cross
Speaker 4: the street and he comes to the gate that separates
Speaker 4: the patio from the sidewalk, and then he opens the
Speaker 4: kiss the little gate there and walks in and sits
Speaker 4: at the table far at the far edge of the
Speaker 4: patio by him, so he doesn't he doesn't get seated,
Speaker 4: and so now it looks like he wants to be served.
Speaker 4: And now I can hear the waiters and waitresses like, oh, man,
Speaker 4: do we have to serve him? Oh, he's got a
Speaker 4: stink and this and that, and I'm like, man, this
Speaker 4: is terrible the way they're talking about this guy. I
Speaker 4: have total solidarity stir with him. And then I look
Speaker 4: over at him like kind of want to give him
Speaker 4: an eye like him, man, I see you, homeboy, like
Speaker 4: like that kind of thing. Solidarity Sometimes it works, you can.
Speaker 4: There's I've been out and I've been in places and
Speaker 4: somebody sees me, I see them. We're like, yeah, we
Speaker 4: know who we are. Yeah yeah, no, noah, all right,
Speaker 4: what's up? All right? And that's it. You let let
Speaker 4: people know who you are. And I'm trying to give
Speaker 4: that guy. Then he looks at me, and right from
Speaker 4: across the patio, he says, what are you looking at
Speaker 4: you being eating burrito, motherfucker or something like yeah, being
Speaker 4: burrito eating motherfucker. Like Jess straight up says it to me,
Speaker 4: calls me on in front of everybody, straight up racist shit,
Speaker 4: and everyone looks at me. They turn around and look
Speaker 4: at me. They have that look that we call him prison, like,
Speaker 4: hey man, I don't play much chess, but it looks
Speaker 4: like you're moved. And my anger flashed from zero to
Speaker 4: one hundred because in that moment, I felt he's threatening
Speaker 4: me and I don't know that. My hand goes to
Speaker 4: my fork, but I look at my fork and I'm like,
Speaker 4: can this thing work? I think I can make this
Speaker 4: fork work if I need to. I could stab him
Speaker 4: in the eye. I could stab him. I could stab
Speaker 4: him in front of his throat. I'll shove this shit
Speaker 4: up his nose if I have to. Like, I'm thinking
Speaker 4: what can I do to hurt him? And I'm like, okay, down, dere,
Speaker 4: what the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck?
Speaker 6: Man?
Speaker 4: No, that guy is just throwing words at you. Man,
Speaker 4: that's words. That's nothing. It's not about you at all.
Speaker 4: Dilly that shit down. Down. He's not threatening you, he's
Speaker 4: not threatening you. It's not a threat. So I started
Speaker 4: dialing it down. I'm at eighty y. It's not a threat,
Speaker 4: it's not a threat. And then my mind thought, but
Speaker 4: what if he walks over here, Like I'm starting to
Speaker 4: imagine how I'm gonna have to, you know, lunge at
Speaker 4: this guy. And now I'm back at one hundred again,
Speaker 4: and so now I am in such distress, like I
Speaker 4: can't let go. This was my moment of fatal peril.
Speaker 4: I've been living out here for several months now, and
Speaker 4: I've been dealing with humiliation after humiliation after small humiliation
Speaker 4: out and being helpless and fucking swallowing shit and just
Speaker 4: like not doing it. This man has crossed such a
Speaker 4: line that the idea of going over there and really
Speaker 4: putting damage on this guy's body feels so good. It's
Speaker 4: so seductive. That was the danger, Like I understood that
Speaker 4: this felt too good. I'm trying to figure out how
Speaker 4: do I let go of this? And I didn't realize well,
Speaker 4: sometimes it unlike prison, where I could not leave prison.
Speaker 4: I had to stay there and I had to deal
Speaker 4: with that. I was like I have an out. I
Speaker 4: got a car, I got a van. But here's the thing.
Speaker 4: On the way home, I realized I needed to get
Speaker 4: a hold of my father, and I need to get
Speaker 4: ahold of my brother. And I don't know why, Like
Speaker 4: to this day, I don't know why. But I was
Speaker 4: smart enough to say, Paul, you know, I get sleeping
Speaker 4: back or something, and I need you to come and
Speaker 4: spend the night with me. Dad, I'm gonna pick you up.
Speaker 4: I need you to just come and spend the night
Speaker 4: with me, like I need you guys to stay with
Speaker 4: me tonight. My dad and brother came. I told Paul,
Speaker 4: stand by the sleep by the window, Dad, sleep by
Speaker 4: the door. Do not let me get up and out
Speaker 4: of here, like I don't want this to happen. I
Speaker 4: don't want to become that. And then I lay in bed,
Speaker 4: thinking I have a whole night to make sure that
Speaker 4: I do some work on myself so that in the
Speaker 4: morning I don't get up and go find a gun
Speaker 4: so I can go rob a bank. But I just
Speaker 4: lay in bed, and my brother and dad heard heard
Speaker 4: me just cry. The voices were so strong, and I
Speaker 4: was not convinced that the beast was not gonna win.
Speaker 4: I was not convinced. I cried myself to sleep, like
Speaker 4: I was just so exhausted from the rage that was
Speaker 4: coursing through me. Because that's what it was. I was
Speaker 4: now dancing with that old rage again, that wanted that
Speaker 4: had done so much damage on the on the planet.
Speaker 4: I was dancing with that rage, man. And then the
Speaker 4: morning came. Morning always comes, and the morning comes like
Speaker 4: there's my dad seated on and reading a book, seated
Speaker 4: on his you know, by the door, and Paul was
Speaker 4: brushing his teeth inside the in the bathroom there, and
Speaker 4: I don't remember like much talking about anything. It was
Speaker 4: just very quiet. The sun was coming through the shades,
Speaker 4: and I do remember that we got up and we
Speaker 4: just hugged it out, the three of us. We hugged
Speaker 4: it out, crying. I had leaned on my people's man.
Speaker 4: They loved me. They wanted me to succeed. They wanted
Speaker 4: me to stay out. I wanted to stay out. And
Speaker 4: the fever, you know, it faded, It was gone. I
Speaker 4: didn't feel that rage anymore. In fact, I felt we
Speaker 4: got a strategy. And the strategy is very simple. You
Speaker 4: got to lean on the love man, my dad loved me.
Speaker 4: My brother loved me. I love them. We're family and
Speaker 4: we had had such a blasted out home at one point,
Speaker 4: but in that moment hugging them, h man, we had
Speaker 4: the best home we'd ever had. It was reliable, and
Speaker 4: it was just showing up and helping the other other
Speaker 4: person out in a moment of crisis. And then I
Speaker 4: was like, how might make this?
Speaker 7: Yeah, you are listening to the burden.
Speaker 2: This has been season four, Get the Money and Run.
Speaker 2: Get the Money and Run was originally released as The
Speaker 2: Score the Bank Rubber Diaries and was produced by Western
Speaker 2: Sound and a Cast Studios. Search up The Bank Robber
Speaker 2: Diaries and click on the yellow cover art to hear
Speaker 2: a fifteen episode version of this story, including questions and
Speaker 2: answers from Joeloya. Yet the Money and Run was produced
Speaker 2: by Me Benader along with Cameron Kel, Haley Fox, and
Speaker 2: Stephanie Aguilar. Production assistance from Annett to Run Hell. All
Speaker 2: the music you heard on Get the Money and Run
Speaker 2: was original and it was composed, produced and designed by
Speaker 2: Dan Leone, mixing and mastering by John Evance Evans and
Speaker 2: Austin Smith. Executive producers are Me Benadair, Joe Loya, Veronica Taylor,
Speaker 2: and Susie Warhurst. The executive producer and producer of The
Speaker 2: Burden is Orbit Media, Steve Fishman and Austin Smith. I'm
Speaker 2: your host, Benadair. Stay tuned to this feed for more
Speaker 2: exciting stories from The Burden.
Speaker 8: Thanks for listening, and special thanks to assistant producers for
Speaker 8: Social Media Eva Bruckner and Sarah Feu and Lead assistant
Speaker 8: producer Eric Axelrod.
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