1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Hello, It's Steve Fishman from Orbit Media and this is 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Get the Money and Run. Today is our final episode, 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: and well, a lot of finales disappoint I assure you 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: this one does not over to Ben. 5 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: You are listening to The Burden season four Get the 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: Money and Run. I'm Benadere and this is episode seven 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: Batel Peril. 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, we talked about how when you're robbing banks and 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 3: at the height of your prison Joe Persona basically cut 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 3: your conscience off, like totally shut down your sense of morality. 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 3: Did your conscience then come back when you're in solitary. 12 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, my conscience just came back with a fury. He 13 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 4: woke up like, oh, okay, we'll show you on It 14 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,639 Speaker 4: doesn't come back and say, oh we'll protect you. We're 15 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 4: gonna only give you a little bit of your shit 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 4: at one time. It dumps it all on you. And 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 4: I had stopped kind of growing and being aware, like 18 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 4: trying to have any self awareness, probably around age eleven, 19 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 4: and now I'd done all these terrible adult things and 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 4: I had to deal with it with a very fragile conscience, 21 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 4: very fragile awareness, and so instantly almost incant. He was like, 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 4: I can never get back this. I'm disqualified, and now 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 4: I don't want to go be back be a bad 24 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 4: guy anymore because that sucks. But now I don't want 25 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 4: to go and be a good guy because that's impossible. 26 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 4: So you know what I probably should do. It is 27 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 4: probably just like save everyone time, just kill myself. Like 28 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 4: that's exactly the logic. I think. 29 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 3: Disqualified is a really interesting word. 30 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I felt like I just didn't have I didn't 31 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 4: have any right to want to go play in that 32 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 4: arena a good peace. I knew good people, I'd heard 33 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 4: a lot of good people. So the conscience was not 34 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 4: kind to me because it did not It didn't say, oh, 35 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 4: we love You're gonna take care of you. No, man, 36 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 4: I was I was suffocating under the the ultifying weight 37 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 4: of remorse and grief and shame. What comes up is 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 4: sometimes down deep in me as that where I remember 39 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 4: something and just a shame and the grief remorse of 40 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 4: who I was just comes up, and yeah, man, that's 41 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 4: that's what it was. 42 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 5: Then Part one, go for Broken. 43 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 4: Joe. 44 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 5: What was scary about that? What was scary about changing? 45 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 4: Well, what I realized was as I started thinking about changing, 46 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 4: I realized that, oh, Fuck, that's hard. I'm fearless about 47 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 4: taking people in a revolt. I'll go down to heartbeat. 48 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 4: I'm fearless about walking in a cell with a knife. 49 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 4: I'm fearless all day long about that. I don't want 50 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 4: to go inside myself and demand that I change. So 51 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 4: I decided to change my idea strong and weak and say, Okay, 52 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 4: i've been thinking I'm strong, I'm actually weak. I want 53 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 4: to get strong. How do I get real strong? I'm 54 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 4: gonna go know myself. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go 55 00:03:45,520 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 4: figure this out. Well, I started writing, and then I 56 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 4: just got a sheet of paper and I said, Mom, 57 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 4: what are the stories I've been telling people all my 58 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 4: life that means something to me? They communicate something about me. 59 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 4: Oh I'm brave because of this. Oh you know what, 60 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 4: I'm fearless because of this. We all have stories that 61 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 4: we're carrying this little box with us, and they are 62 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 4: identity stories. They are the stories we used to tell people. 63 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 4: This is who we are, because these are stories we 64 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 4: tell ourselves of who we are. And so I thought, 65 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 4: what are the stories that I tell and have been 66 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 4: telling since I was a child about who I am 67 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 4: that represent me? Stabbing my dad at my mother's funeral, 68 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 4: like all the stories, like what are the stories who 69 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 4: make up my sense of identity? And then I would 70 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 4: wake up and say, Okay, which one do I want 71 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 4: to write? That's when I started came out with the 72 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 4: concert of owning your story. Because you can't know who 73 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 4: you are if you don't know the origins of things. 74 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 4: You have to like realize what parts of your story 75 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 4: are wrong, false, don't fit. And that was super helpful. 76 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 4: Now I'm thinking, I gotta be on the line and 77 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 4: I don't want guys fucking with me. I gotta like 78 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 4: investigate on the page how to become a nice guy, 79 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 4: a good person soft. And the irony is that in 80 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 4: order to give myself the space and nobody would fuck 81 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 4: with me so I could be in my cell to 82 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 4: like do all the soft investigation of myself, because I 83 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 4: had to dial up my persona on the tier like 84 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 4: don't fuck with me, man, don't you know who I am? 85 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 4: I had to continue to perform hyper maleness to get 86 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 4: to learn all this time to read and write letters 87 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 4: to people and try to change my life. 88 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: How difficult was that to have sort of the the 89 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 3: two different personas one one where you're acting tough and 90 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: then the one where you're trying to, I guess, go 91 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 3: soft in a way. 92 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 4: It was very tough because remember guys, guys who walk 93 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 4: around like they're ready to stab you. It only works 94 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 4: if everyone thinks they're gonna that you will stab them. 95 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 4: And I had to do that several times. I'm like 96 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 4: trying to trying to tell myself that that's our ego, 97 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: that's our ego, Like you can't, you can't take that 98 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 4: stuff personally. So I actually have these like real things 99 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,119 Speaker 4: that are happening, and then I get to try and 100 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 4: like say, okay, so I agree with this new teaching 101 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 4: that I'm that I'm learning and stuff. It makes sense 102 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 4: to me. I like it. I like I like it. 103 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 4: Theoretically it makes sense. I'd already been changing my life 104 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 4: a little bit with it, so I want to keep 105 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 4: leaning into it. But I would plenty times have an 106 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 4: opportunity or something would get kicked up in me, and 107 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 4: then I would get to like constructed, like I was 108 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 4: able to start realizing under all these acts of rage 109 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 4: or all these acts of indignancy in me, basically what 110 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 4: they were is it was when the rager come up 111 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 4: it was disguising the fact that I felt wounded. That 112 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 4: was the big, big, fucking lesson. And this kept coming 113 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 4: up over and over and over again, and being able 114 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 4: to develop that distance from the moment is like, Okay, 115 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 4: I'm gonna be able to get out of here, I'm 116 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 4: going to be able to stop putting holds them in. 117 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 3: Did you start thinking about other people in your life 118 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: who had traumatized you. I mean, I'm thinking mostly of 119 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: your dad. 120 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. So, you know, when I started investigating my wounds, 121 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 4: it was like they all these old child wounds would 122 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 4: come out right, like I feel I see it's I'm 123 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 4: I'm remembering this episode from my childhood. That's where it 124 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 4: all went back to. And then I was like, oh shit, 125 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 4: my dad he had a really shitty childhood, just like me. 126 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 4: Then I started looking at that and I knew my 127 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 4: dad's past and when he was young, my grandfather used 128 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 4: to put him in a chicken coop. My grandfather really 129 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 4: was mad at mins treated my dad like he was 130 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 4: the worst kid. He had some deep animosity in my dad. 131 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 4: I think my grandfather may have thought that my dad 132 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 4: wasn't his even so, my dad got treated very badly, humiliated, humiliated, humiliated, 133 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 4: over and over, which is why he wanted to get 134 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 4: out of the house at sixteen to marry my mother. 135 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 4: That's when I was born. He just wanted to get 136 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 4: the hell out. So I knew he had been treated 137 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 4: terribly brutally, and then he grew up and he did 138 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 4: the same thing. In all my life, I had thought 139 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 4: my dad was a monster. People would even tell me, man, 140 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 4: let's do a monster. And I liked thinking of him 141 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 4: as a monster because then I could think about the 142 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 4: bad things I wanted to do to him. Because I 143 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 4: made him into this object. He's a monster. He's not 144 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 4: a person. He's like the other He's not us, he's 145 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 4: not like me. But when I examined my life and 146 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 4: I started seeing all the bad things that I had done, 147 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 4: and I understood where it came from, and I was 148 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 4: able to look at my father and say, oh, he's 149 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 4: doing these because of his wounds, his early humiliations, his 150 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 4: early trauma. He's no different than me than this monster. 151 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 4: Who I now understood was this little boy who had 152 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 4: been brutalized and humiliated and traumatized and behave badly. He 153 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 4: wasn't a monster. Yes, he did monsters things but he 154 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 4: was no longer a monster me. He was a kid 155 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 4: who didn't ask for any of the shit that happened 156 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 4: to him. And then it was like, oh fuck, I 157 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 4: was a kid. I didn't ask for any of it. 158 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 4: I didn't ask for the beatings. I didn't ask to 159 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 4: witness the trauma that he inflicted on my brother. I 160 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 4: didn't ask for the trauma of that. I didn't ask 161 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 4: for the death of my mother. I didn't ask for 162 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 4: any of the none of it. None of it. And 163 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 4: it happened, and he shaped me, and I grew up 164 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 4: and I did monsters things, but I wasn't a monster. 165 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 4: Being able to have an understanding of my father to 166 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 4: give him compassion. That gave me that phrase, Oh well, 167 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 4: then he's not a monster. He did monstrous thing, He's 168 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 4: not a monster came back to me and I could 169 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 4: appropriate for myself and say, oh, yeah, I'm not I 170 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 4: did monster, but I'm not a monster either. It gave 171 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 4: me like this tag, this tagline that I could remind 172 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 4: myself when I would start feeling super shameful, that which 173 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 4: was you know, really really heavy on those early days 174 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 4: because I just felt like, fuck it, I'm gonna always 175 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 4: fuck up I'm just I'm a terrible, evil person. I 176 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 4: might as well just kill myself because I'm gonna fail 177 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 4: at this thing to try and get better too. So 178 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 4: I needed help and that line I did monsters things 179 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 4: when I'm not a monster. Just like I gave it 180 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 4: to my dad, I was able to use it for 181 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 4: myself and that thing that gave me some rich propulsion 182 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 4: in the in a direction away from from shame, just 183 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 4: compassion for myself, you know. But I first extended it 184 00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 4: to my dad, and then it came back to me. 185 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 6: We'll be right back. 186 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 5: Part two. 187 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 3: First day out, Jo, Do you remember your last day 188 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: in prison? 189 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 4: I woke up and showered, changed, shaved shit. I did 190 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 4: not shine my shoes because I only was going to 191 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 4: walk out with shower shoes because I gave my shoes 192 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 4: to somebody else. And then I just waited when I 193 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 4: went to breakfast and then went to my cell, and 194 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 4: I waited to be called. And sure enough, at a 195 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 4: certain point, pretty early, it's like loyal, roll it up, 196 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 4: roll it up. And so I go and they escort 197 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 4: me to the administration building, and now they start processing 198 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 4: me out. Sign this sign, that sign, this fingerprint, that 199 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 4: photo of this here's your clothes. Change into these because 200 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 4: your My family had sent me closed ahead of time. 201 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 4: And then they brought me to the gate. When they 202 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 4: brought me to the gate, and they asshole guards like 203 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 4: all right, see you soon, like I'm coming back, and 204 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 4: I was given a one hundred and fifty dollars check. 205 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 4: So first thing I do when I walk out of 206 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 4: the prison that I'd spent seventy years for for robbing banks, 207 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 4: the first thing I do is I go to a bank. 208 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 4: And when I go to a bank, this time, I'm 209 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 4: going to make an entirely different experience. And I'm like, 210 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 4: I'm this is momentous, man, this is I'm different man 211 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 4: than I went in. And I have a different relationship 212 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 4: to banking. So I walk up and I put both 213 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 4: my hands on the doors, and I open the doors 214 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 4: and walk in and I kind of walk. I need 215 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 4: to sign the so I go to the counter. I 216 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 4: put both my hands out on the counter and then 217 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 4: I look up and I go wait in line, and 218 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 4: I look at every camera in there, dumbly just like 219 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 4: what what what? Just looking at all of them, just 220 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 4: getting my face. I wanted to be known, I wanted 221 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 4: to be seen. And then I got my cash and 222 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 4: I walked out, and then I had this experience as 223 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 4: my first brush with grief, because you know, I'm out there, 224 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 4: I'm doing good. I'm happy, I mean as happy as 225 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 4: you can be. I'm carrying grief with me. Obviously, I'm 226 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 4: so sorrow and and all sorts of fear and all 227 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 4: sorts of things, but I'm really generally like, oh man, 228 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 4: it feels good to be out. So at one point 229 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 4: I go to buy something and there's this guy in there, 230 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 4: this young guy, pimply big Ol'adam's apple. I think you're 231 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 4: probably be a college kid, but sweetheart, and then I 232 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 4: come up with my little you know, bullshit postcards and 233 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 4: gum and whatever, and then he takes my money. My 234 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 4: money falls out of his hand, and then like he 235 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 4: triesking me the receipt and it falls on the floor. 236 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 4: It's just it was like so clumsy, but as he 237 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 4: was as he bent down to pick up the receipt, 238 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 4: and he was just so apologetic to me, apologetic to me. 239 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 4: It was like in that moment, flashbacks of all the 240 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 4: shit that I had done in prison, Like it just 241 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 4: came flooding that moment, and I felt terrible that I, 242 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 4: this innocent young man was in front of me and 243 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 4: all the terrible things I had done, and I mean 244 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 4: it was just, yeah, you know, just the level of 245 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 4: abuse I'd done to other people, the dorsis, the stabbings, 246 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 4: the ship on guards, the fires and the tears, the 247 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 4: making of the knives, the the robbing, the terrorizing all 248 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 4: the people I did, the treating the people who love 249 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 4: me shitty. I just felt so it felt like I 250 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 4: was gonna just rob this kid of innocence in a way, 251 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 4: and I wanted to get out of there as fast, 252 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 4: but I just grabbed myself and I ran out. And 253 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 4: I'm so not ready for fucking good people, man, Like 254 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 4: I'm gonna always feel like fucking terrible ship in front 255 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 4: of him. I can't let this keep happening and running out, 256 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 4: you know. Yeah, man, it was exhausting to be free, Joe. 257 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 3: You spent you spent a lot of time in prison 258 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: thinking about your dad and your relationship with your dad. 259 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 3: What was it like when you first saw him after 260 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 3: getting released. 261 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 4: I saw him when I exited the plane, and there's 262 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 4: my dad. He's my dad. I'd done all my heart 263 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 4: work on him already, so I just hug him, I 264 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 4: love him. We cry, you know, we weep like men. 265 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 4: But there was one conversation that solidified what we would 266 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 4: try to be the rest of this time and kind 267 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 4: of got to, which was this, Dad, So I fucked 268 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 4: up really bad. You fucked up really bad. Why don't 269 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 4: we do this. Let my fucked up shit cancel all 270 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 4: your fucked up shit, and then your fucked up shit 271 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 4: cancel out my fucked up shit, and let's just start over. 272 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 4: Let's just do that. Boom, clean slate, turn the fucking page. Yeah, 273 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 4: let's just have a fresh start. And that's what we 274 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 4: chose to do, just like that. Let's just fresh started. Okay, 275 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 4: fresh start. We'll be right back. 276 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 6: M Part three. 277 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 4: Gone in a moment, well, you know, for those of 278 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 4: us who are under a three strike serra law is 279 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 4: when I like when I got out, there's a mistake 280 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 4: you could make that meant that you're never getting out 281 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 4: of prison again. It'll wash you up. One mistake, and 282 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 4: that one mistake. Many men who came out of prison, 283 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 4: when they would be in reinc two programs they would 284 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 4: deal with, they would talk about that moment in which 285 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 4: they had to choose, am I gonna walk away, or 286 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 4: am I gonna wash myself up, never get out of prison. 287 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 4: It's right here, It's decision is right now. It's like 288 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: I am my life is imperiled in this moment, and 289 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 4: not just in peril, like oh, I might go to 290 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 4: prison for a couple years, like I'll never get out again. 291 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 4: And they call that the moment of fatal peril. Crocodile Cafe, 292 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 4: you know, I'd worked at one before, and here we 293 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 4: are at this one, and we're on the patio and 294 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 4: there's this homeless guy across the street starts walking in traffic, 295 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 4: and there's all this horn. That's why we're paying attention 296 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 4: because everyone's trying to stop their honking in him, and 297 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 4: he gets so agitated. He stands right in the middle 298 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 4: of the road and he puts his arms out like 299 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 4: Jesus on the cross, and he throws his head back 300 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 4: and he's just standing in the middle the center line. 301 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 4: And so the traffic picks up again. It starts going slowly, 302 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 4: slowly by I mean, he's just drawn, you know, dramatic there, 303 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 4: and people are saying stuff about him in the patio, 304 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 4: and I feel bad for him. I have solidarity. I 305 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 4: get it, dude, in those days, like I'm feeling a 306 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 4: lot of compassion. And then he comes and he cross 307 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 4: the street and he comes to the gate that separates 308 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 4: the patio from the sidewalk, and then he opens the 309 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 4: kiss the little gate there and walks in and sits 310 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 4: at the table far at the far edge of the 311 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 4: patio by him, so he doesn't he doesn't get seated, 312 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 4: and so now it looks like he wants to be served. 313 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 4: And now I can hear the waiters and waitresses like, oh, man, 314 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 4: do we have to serve him? Oh, he's got a 315 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 4: stink and this and that, and I'm like, man, this 316 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 4: is terrible the way they're talking about this guy. I 317 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 4: have total solidarity stir with him. And then I look 318 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 4: over at him like kind of want to give him 319 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 4: an eye like him, man, I see you, homeboy, like 320 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 4: like that kind of thing. Solidarity Sometimes it works, you can. 321 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 4: There's I've been out and I've been in places and 322 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 4: somebody sees me, I see them. We're like, yeah, we 323 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 4: know who we are. Yeah yeah, no, noah, all right, 324 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 4: what's up? All right? And that's it. You let let 325 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 4: people know who you are. And I'm trying to give 326 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 4: that guy. Then he looks at me, and right from 327 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 4: across the patio, he says, what are you looking at 328 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 4: you being eating burrito, motherfucker or something like yeah, being 329 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 4: burrito eating motherfucker. Like Jess straight up says it to me, 330 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 4: calls me on in front of everybody, straight up racist shit, 331 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 4: and everyone looks at me. They turn around and look 332 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 4: at me. They have that look that we call him prison, like, 333 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 4: hey man, I don't play much chess, but it looks 334 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,719 Speaker 4: like you're moved. And my anger flashed from zero to 335 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 4: one hundred because in that moment, I felt he's threatening 336 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 4: me and I don't know that. My hand goes to 337 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 4: my fork, but I look at my fork and I'm like, 338 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 4: can this thing work? I think I can make this 339 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 4: fork work if I need to. I could stab him 340 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 4: in the eye. I could stab him. I could stab 341 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 4: him in front of his throat. I'll shove this shit 342 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 4: up his nose if I have to. Like, I'm thinking 343 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 4: what can I do to hurt him? And I'm like, okay, down, dere, 344 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 4: what the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? 345 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 6: Man? 346 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 4: No, that guy is just throwing words at you. Man, 347 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 4: that's words. That's nothing. It's not about you at all. 348 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 4: Dilly that shit down. Down. He's not threatening you, he's 349 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 4: not threatening you. It's not a threat. So I started 350 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 4: dialing it down. I'm at eighty y. It's not a threat, 351 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 4: it's not a threat. And then my mind thought, but 352 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 4: what if he walks over here, Like I'm starting to 353 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 4: imagine how I'm gonna have to, you know, lunge at 354 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 4: this guy. And now I'm back at one hundred again, 355 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 4: and so now I am in such distress, like I 356 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 4: can't let go. This was my moment of fatal peril. 357 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 4: I've been living out here for several months now, and 358 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 4: I've been dealing with humiliation after humiliation after small humiliation 359 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 4: out and being helpless and fucking swallowing shit and just 360 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 4: like not doing it. This man has crossed such a 361 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 4: line that the idea of going over there and really 362 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 4: putting damage on this guy's body feels so good. It's 363 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 4: so seductive. That was the danger, Like I understood that 364 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 4: this felt too good. I'm trying to figure out how 365 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 4: do I let go of this? And I didn't realize well, 366 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 4: sometimes it unlike prison, where I could not leave prison. 367 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 4: I had to stay there and I had to deal 368 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 4: with that. I was like I have an out. I 369 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 4: got a car, I got a van. But here's the thing. 370 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 4: On the way home, I realized I needed to get 371 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 4: a hold of my father, and I need to get 372 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 4: ahold of my brother. And I don't know why, Like 373 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 4: to this day, I don't know why. But I was 374 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 4: smart enough to say, Paul, you know, I get sleeping 375 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 4: back or something, and I need you to come and 376 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 4: spend the night with me. Dad, I'm gonna pick you up. 377 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 4: I need you to just come and spend the night 378 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 4: with me, like I need you guys to stay with 379 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 4: me tonight. My dad and brother came. I told Paul, 380 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 4: stand by the sleep by the window, Dad, sleep by 381 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 4: the door. Do not let me get up and out 382 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 4: of here, like I don't want this to happen. I 383 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 4: don't want to become that. And then I lay in bed, 384 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 4: thinking I have a whole night to make sure that 385 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 4: I do some work on myself so that in the 386 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 4: morning I don't get up and go find a gun 387 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 4: so I can go rob a bank. But I just 388 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 4: lay in bed, and my brother and dad heard heard 389 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 4: me just cry. The voices were so strong, and I 390 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 4: was not convinced that the beast was not gonna win. 391 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 4: I was not convinced. I cried myself to sleep, like 392 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 4: I was just so exhausted from the rage that was 393 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 4: coursing through me. Because that's what it was. I was 394 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 4: now dancing with that old rage again, that wanted that 395 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 4: had done so much damage on the on the planet. 396 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 4: I was dancing with that rage, man. And then the 397 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 4: morning came. Morning always comes, and the morning comes like 398 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 4: there's my dad seated on and reading a book, seated 399 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 4: on his you know, by the door, and Paul was 400 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 4: brushing his teeth inside the in the bathroom there, and 401 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 4: I don't remember like much talking about anything. It was 402 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 4: just very quiet. The sun was coming through the shades, 403 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 4: and I do remember that we got up and we 404 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 4: just hugged it out, the three of us. We hugged 405 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 4: it out, crying. I had leaned on my people's man. 406 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 4: They loved me. They wanted me to succeed. They wanted 407 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 4: me to stay out. I wanted to stay out. And 408 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 4: the fever, you know, it faded, It was gone. I 409 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 4: didn't feel that rage anymore. In fact, I felt we 410 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 4: got a strategy. And the strategy is very simple. You 411 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 4: got to lean on the love man, my dad loved me. 412 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 4: My brother loved me. I love them. We're family and 413 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 4: we had had such a blasted out home at one point, 414 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 4: but in that moment hugging them, h man, we had 415 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 4: the best home we'd ever had. It was reliable, and 416 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 4: it was just showing up and helping the other other 417 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,959 Speaker 4: person out in a moment of crisis. And then I 418 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 4: was like, how might make this? 419 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 7: Yeah, you are listening to the burden. 420 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: This has been season four, Get the Money and Run. 421 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 2: Get the Money and Run was originally released as The 422 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: Score the Bank Rubber Diaries and was produced by Western 423 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: Sound and a Cast Studios. Search up The Bank Robber 424 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: Diaries and click on the yellow cover art to hear 425 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 2: a fifteen episode version of this story, including questions and 426 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: answers from Joeloya. Yet the Money and Run was produced 427 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: by Me Benader along with Cameron Kel, Haley Fox, and 428 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 2: Stephanie Aguilar. Production assistance from Annett to Run Hell. All 429 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: the music you heard on Get the Money and Run 430 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 2: was original and it was composed, produced and designed by 431 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: Dan Leone, mixing and mastering by John Evance Evans and 432 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: Austin Smith. Executive producers are Me Benadair, Joe Loya, Veronica Taylor, 433 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 2: and Susie Warhurst. The executive producer and producer of The 434 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: Burden is Orbit Media, Steve Fishman and Austin Smith. I'm 435 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: your host, Benadair. Stay tuned to this feed for more 436 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: exciting stories from The Burden. 437 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 8: Thanks for listening, and special thanks to assistant producers for 438 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 8: Social Media Eva Bruckner and Sarah Feu and Lead assistant 439 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 8: producer Eric Axelrod. 440 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Remember to hear all episodes all at 441 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: once and ad free. Subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on 442 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. It's worth it. You'll find other gripping true 443 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: crime series there also ad free. If you want to 444 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: hear Ben talk about this episode, check out the teaser. 445 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: It's in the Burden feed