1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone, 3 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Today. We 4 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: are talking about one of the most famous true crime 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 2: stories ever, but from the point of view of someone 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: people think they know because they remember the hair, the tabloids, 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 2: the jokes, and the quote HouseGuest label. But Kato Kalin 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 2: was right there on Rockingham the Knight Nicole Brown, Simpson 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: and Ron Goldman were murdered. He heard the thumps, He 10 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: went on that late night McDonald's run with OJ Simpson. 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: He testified in the Trial of the Century. Years later, 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: after the People v OJ American Crime Story brought this 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: case back into the spotlight, people are still obsessed with it. 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: So we wanted to talk to the real Cato about 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: what the show got right, what it got wrong, and 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: what still shocks him about the case. Kato, thank you 17 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 2: so much for being here today and for being here 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: in person. 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: It makes a difference. 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 2: It makes a really, really big difference. 21 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 3: When you said, Cato, we got a couch and it's 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 3: a pull out, I was like, Lisa, thanks, Look, I'm 23 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: not I can afford my own couch. 24 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: Now, I was like, listen, listen, listen, I can help 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: you out out. So I do want to share with everyone. 26 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 2: We just discussed that when I first moved. First of all, 27 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: I visited Los Angeles for the first time when I 28 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: was in New York the week of June twelfth, nineteen 29 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 2: ninety four, the Bronco Chase interrupting the Knicks game all 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: of this, and I went, what is wrong with this city? 31 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: This is crazy. Then I moved to LA several months later, 32 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: and the gym that I belonged to, better known as 33 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: Butts on Beverly, was on Beverly and sweet Sir. And 34 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: I walk in the door and who is working out 35 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: in the gym but Kato Caitlin. And I'm like, what 36 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: is going on? 37 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: That's so funny. I think I asked you to get 38 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: a spot. 39 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And it was like Bruce Springsteen Dave Navarro 40 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: that I had a huge crush on. I think he 41 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: knew and he sort of would like milk it and 42 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: say hi to me all the time, and I was embarrassed. 43 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: It was like quite a scene. 44 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: Everybody worked out there and it was the like the 45 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 3: cheap place to go. You remember when you'd work out there. 46 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: You'd be in the bottom and you'd hear all the 47 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 3: crooking starts of the way you go this and it's 48 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 3: an old building, you're going, I know it's going to collapse. 49 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: Felt that way. 50 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's so funny. And I was there for 51 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 3: I was there way before the trial, even during it. Yeah, 52 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: and it's uh it really everybody was there and everybody 53 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 3: kind of mind their own business. 54 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 55 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, you David Spade, I tell 56 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 3: a story call oh yeah, David Spade made fun of it, 57 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 3: SNL because you do mean the trial and the StairMaster 58 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 3: going on higher speed, that's all. I would do that 59 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: at the high level. But that was back and a 60 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 3: lot of aggressions, So you. 61 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: Get it out. 62 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 2: I'm sure I didn't really, So Okay, let's other than 63 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: working out at the gym, what was a regular day 64 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: like for you at that point before all. 65 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 3: This, I had a casting business. I had a day 66 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: casting with a Grant Kramer. If you know, Grant was 67 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 3: on General Hospital. He did the movie Heart Parties. He 68 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 3: was a big, big heart throb. So Grant and Grant's moms, 69 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: Terry Moore, who was with Howard Hughes and so Grant 70 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 3: and I started a business to casting, so it was 71 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: more of the like extras casting, although we did day 72 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 3: parts for SAG so it kept our insurance going. And 73 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: I'd get myself a part in, you know, in a 74 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 3: film like the a lot of the lower budget but 75 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: SEG films like Lorenzo Lamis and whoever that Don Wilson, 76 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 3: like the Karate films that are were huge back at 77 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: the Y. 78 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: So I would do that. I'd be on sets. 79 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 3: Until four in the morning and just wrangling people. So 80 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 3: I was always kind of in the business doing that. 81 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: And I, you know, I had a few commercials and 82 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: just the same actor's life, trying to. 83 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: Survive, right, right. And so you met if I if 84 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: I correct me, if I'm wrong, you met Nicole in 85 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: Aspen on a trip and like, tell me how you 86 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: wound up living with her. 87 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 3: Grant and I would do really well in the business, 88 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 3: and he said he was, uh, you know, in that 89 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 3: celebrity group, and I sure wasn't. But he and I 90 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: became buddies and we said let's drive. He said, let's 91 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: drive to Aspen and we actually drove his Bronco. So anyways, 92 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 3: but it was it was not white so we drove 93 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 3: drove his car from LA to Aspen. He said, everybody 94 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 3: goes there the day after Christmas and spend the New 95 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 3: Year's Uh. 96 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: So he did. 97 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 3: And he used to do those ski like cointrop all 98 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 3: the celebrity ski tournaments. So when he was an Aspen, 99 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 3: he said, I think that's Nicole at one of the 100 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 3: parties and they made eye contact. They knew each other, 101 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 3: and she was divorced from og at the time, and 102 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 3: they immediately kind of locked eyes. And the trip it 103 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: was just those guys together and I was the third wheel. 104 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 3: Oh wow, but that trip trip. 105 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 2: Was Oh did they date? Did they wind up dating? 106 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, After the trip they had a few dates. 107 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 3: You know, they hung out and while we're in that 108 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: third wheel that we went out. I'd go out too 109 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: with them sometimes because I was comic relief, I guess, 110 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 3: and she had Faye Resnick with her what I didn't 111 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 3: hang out with. 112 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: But I ended up meeting the name prop. 113 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: This is before the trial now, so I ended up 114 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 3: meeting Catherine Oxenburg at the time was on Dynasty, and 115 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 3: we started dating me and I was like, oh my god, 116 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 3: this girl is uh you know, my tax records doughnuts 117 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: and princess and she was Danish, Danish donuts and Danish everything. 118 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 3: So we we dated and then we started hanging out 119 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: and Nicole had would throw a little git togethers at 120 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 3: Gretona Green not Bundy. But then I was in her 121 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 3: Moosa beach. I said, hey, she was taking a liking 122 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 3: to me with the kids, liking like this guy's Wisconsin 123 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: and trust. And then she said, I said, who lives 124 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 3: in your guest house? Can I rent it? And then 125 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: I rented it and that was it. That's the story. 126 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: And then her and. 127 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 3: Grant broke up a Yeah, he's a great guy and 128 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 3: she's a wonderful woman. 129 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: Did you think in any So, I mean, I have 130 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: so many questions, and I really appreciate I can't imagine 131 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 2: how much you have had to speak about this, so 132 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. And I also know. 133 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 3: You've an interest and it's it's something it's sort of cathartic, 134 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 3: but it's also Yeah, it's questions that you have. And 135 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 3: I have no problem with people with the stuff, because 136 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: you're right, I've done so much, but it's so good 137 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: that I can put a voice to things and make it. 138 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: More human and have The thing about this kind of 139 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 2: platform too, that I really love is that you get 140 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: to have like longer conversations where you don't just have 141 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: to give a SoundBite and then like move on, you know. 142 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: So it's a nice so to that end, so many 143 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: and a couple of our producers are like, we need 144 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: to understand this. I'm like, okay, the night of the murders, 145 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: you went to McDonald's with OJ. What I need to 146 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 2: understand was this before the murders after? Like what was 147 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: the context and what was he like? Was was he 148 00:06:59,200 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: acting stream? 149 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll answer all that. So back in the day, 150 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: I used to run. 151 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 3: I did a few marathons, and I played basketball, so 152 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: I would got I was working out and it was June. 153 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 3: It was you know hot that it stays light longer, 154 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: so I was worn out. 155 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: I came back. I said. 156 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 3: I was always kind of this person like should I 157 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: use the prop you know, the jacuzzi? 158 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: Right? 159 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: I used the jacuzzie and then later and I'm always 160 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 3: aware that I would if I do something, I make it. 161 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: I make sure I would turn off or whatever. 162 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 3: But he came to my door and he is, yeah, 163 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 3: a very good house guest, and he never really came 164 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: to my never, so he came to my door and 165 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 3: asked him if I could break a hundred dollars bill 166 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 3: and I couldn't, but I said, I have forty. 167 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: I can give you this forty that I have and. 168 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 3: He said, oh okay, and and it was he was 169 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 3: just like even back then, I was going strings he 170 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 3: came to my door, but I wasn't. 171 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: Do you think I see you for change or one hundred. 172 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: Of Yeah, so that's but for what. 173 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: Well then he's he said he's going to eat, and 174 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: I didn't know McDonald's. Now I thought, oh my god, 175 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: I'm starving, So I said, can I go? 176 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: Can I eat with you? 177 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 3: And he did this, I said, before he does this pause, 178 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: and I knew right when he's pausing that I over 179 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: saved my welcome sort of thing like you're not invited. 180 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 3: And it was really uncomfortable and it was like a 181 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 3: five second chick and he just went, yeah, sure. And 182 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 3: then it made me feel like the whole time I'm 183 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 3: driving there now, I have no idea what we're going. 184 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 3: I don't eat McDonald's, and if I did, I just 185 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 3: I didn't did the meat thing, but not that. 186 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, regretting your decision immediately. 187 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 3: So I'm being quiet in the car he's driving, and 188 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: it ends up that he goes to the McDonald's drive 189 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 3: through in Santa Monica. And then I didn't know the 190 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 3: McDonald McDonald's were, but the detectives when they were questioning me, 191 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: it was fun. They go, why do you go to 192 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: that McDonald's and not the one right on Wilshaw. 193 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: I I had no idea. 194 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 2: I don't know. 195 00:08:59,040 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: I had no idea. 196 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 3: Ye, and that was you know, that's the whole McDonald's 197 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 3: drive And so he got that. I got a chicken 198 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: sandwich and he took this. I think he got two quarters, 199 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 3: but he ate the first one and like in two bites. 200 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: And I then, you see my testimony, I said, I'd 201 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 3: wait for the entree head home and I go. 202 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: We parked. 203 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 3: He goes in the car in the driveway, and I 204 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 3: get out of the driveway and walk towards his house, 205 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 3: not my guest house. And I go and I opened 206 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: like the screen door before you open the main door. 207 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 3: But I looked and he was still at the door 208 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 3: of his car. It's about a twenty twenty five yards away, 209 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, okay, I'll see uh, I'll 210 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 3: eat my room. 211 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: Wow, that was it? 212 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: So did you? I mean, this is like this becomes 213 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: Do you feel like you were disrupting his alibi? Like 214 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 2: you were giving him an alibi essentially? 215 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? 216 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 3: I have nightmares. And I actually told asked, told Kim 217 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 3: Goldman on a show many years ago. I said, I 218 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 3: feel like I ruined his timeline. But and she goes, 219 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 3: you can't think that way, and so whatever it was, 220 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: so it kind of affects me even today. But I 221 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: went back the room and ate, and I make a 222 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: phone call to my buddy. I'm from Wisconsin, a very 223 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 3: close relationship all my friends still. 224 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: To this day. And his name's Tom and he was 225 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: a DA in San Diego. 226 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 3: And I was like, hey, I guess you know you're saying, buddy, 227 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 3: you know, acting cocky, but in a funny way. 228 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: And then the rest is sort. 229 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: Of what is that when you heard the Now. 230 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: It's after so I'm talking the phone and I'm on, 231 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 3: I call this girl up. 232 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: It's different different times. 233 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: And then I heard, uh, the pictures it's a wall 234 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 3: just like this on your set and there's a picture 235 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 3: and the picture went kind of like this, and I 236 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: heard the uh, uh this noise. 237 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: I thought the picture move. I thought maybe we had 238 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: an earthquake. 239 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 3: I said, hey, I think we had an earthquake, and 240 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 3: she said no, I don't think so I said, oh, 241 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 3: my picture moved. 242 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: And this is relevant because that timing means that he 243 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 2: was there, right, Is that. 244 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: What that they're saying that probably now it's a wall. 245 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: It's like sort of, that's this much space in between 246 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 3: the two houses, the like a little sideway full of cowboys. 247 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: No one goes back there. 248 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 3: Yes, and that's where detectives hindsight thought maybe he hit 249 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 3: his head and dropped the glove, said the glove. And 250 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 3: they could because I have an air conditioning unit. Yes, 251 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 3: and they think maybe that's what happened. We'll never know, 252 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: but it would make sense of my gosh. 253 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: But you, of course have no idea of this at 254 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: the time. 255 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 3: No, nothing, nothing until that morning. And I was you 256 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 3: know that it was a June gloom. It was one 257 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: of those those nights where everything has felt off. 258 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: You can't explain. 259 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 3: You don't think murder anything, but you feel like, what 260 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 3: a strange night. And at like two thirty am, I 261 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 3: heard like these footsteps going by it on heels. I 262 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: thought Okay, that's Arnell's daughter. She was in the bungalow 263 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 3: next to mine. I go, oh, she's just getting in 264 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 3: or whatever it is. But I heard everything. And the 265 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 3: girl I'm talking to, I say, why don't you come 266 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 3: by here? And she goes, no, come to my place, 267 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: and we're going no, I'm going to try to get 268 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 3: some work, you know, that type of her to do 269 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 3: a resume. And even then I'm thinking, Uh, this window 270 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 3: that I had with the gloom, you know, you think 271 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 3: you hear things, and I was. 272 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: It was just aw. I can't explain it. 273 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: Isn't that funny how it's like there is You're like, 274 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: something's not something is. 275 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: Just one of the persons. 276 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: Why am I so conscious of everything that's happening right 277 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: now or something? 278 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: Percent It was if June Gloom times one thousand that night? 279 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: Did you well, first of all, were you ever afraid 280 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: of Oj? 281 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: No? 282 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: Never, I was never afraid of oj because first of all, 283 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 3: he was working, I think, Notre Dame Games. 284 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: He was gone a lot. 285 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 3: So I was there for six and a half months, 286 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 3: and I was stayed with her for six and a 287 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 3: half months, so I lived in both and I thought 288 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: I had this great room with a view on both 289 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: sides of how people live. 290 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: And that's why they thought I was a valuable witness. 291 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 3: I saw how they lived, sure, But he was this 292 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 3: charismatic man that he loved being adulated, but he loved 293 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 3: people recognizing. 294 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: Me and doing an article. He lived for that. 295 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 3: And then you saw the sort of the downfall when 296 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 3: the trial was going on and the more evidence came out, 297 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 3: it was it was just a lost soul. But no, 298 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 3: he never I didn't did hang out with him because 299 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 3: I had my own friends. I did see him at 300 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 3: the house a few times. 301 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: Did you ever see him like yelling at Nicole? Did 302 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: you did you miss any of that sort of thing? 303 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: The only thing is there's a nine on one call, 304 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 3: but I wasn't there for it. I came after the 305 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 3: fact with the police and he at the Gretna Greenhouse. Yeah, 306 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 3: And he ripped the door of the French doors. And 307 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 3: then Nicole was telling we I hammered it shut after 308 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 3: the fact that he had gone. So I think my 309 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 3: voice she's talking to the police, and she says, no, 310 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: it's okay, that's Cato. 311 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm on that now. 312 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: So and then she said he's crazy, and and I 313 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 3: just know, I come from this, my parents passed away. 314 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 3: When I come from a family where my mom and 315 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 3: dad never argued that they did they kissed. So I said, 316 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: why do you guys ever? You got everything in the world, 317 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: beautiful kids, and so I never could in my mind 318 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 3: think what problems there? But there's everybody's problems, big, yeah. 319 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 2: Big problems. I also interviewed Keith Slam Keith. 320 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: I knew Keith. Keith did the show that I did too. 321 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: You were very open about it, and he told stories 322 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: that were, you know, pretty amazing with OJ and. 323 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: Yes, that's what I was so shocked and just thinking 324 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: about that. You know, it was all the things that 325 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 2: people forget, you know, and I appreciate when I've heard 326 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: you speak on this and you you know, always come 327 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: back to these are two people that lost their lives, 328 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: and we can't ever forget that. You know, there's so 329 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: much that surrounds all of it, the celebrity and the 330 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: extreme nature of all the things, and the lies and 331 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 2: the trial, and you know, but it's really these two people, 332 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: these innocent people. 333 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. 334 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 3: It was completely It never was about them in the 335 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 3: trial because the media, the media, all these shows at 336 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 3: that time the Current Affairs, the hard copies, they went 337 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 3: for different stories and you know, I wasn't the media 338 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 3: kind of controls anything that they want to make for ratings. 339 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: And the story was the dream Team. 340 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 3: The story was they've lost focus of the two young 341 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 3: people losing their lives and uh, you know, and Nicole 342 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 3: was really incredible mom. And every morning, every morning, uh, 343 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: she take the kids to school and go running with 344 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: Chris Jenner and two or three of her other friends 345 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 3: every morning. 346 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: So right, that was it. 347 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: And I, you know, I grew up when that guest. 348 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 3: I was in Gretna Green where all the Kardashian sisters 349 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: are small girls, and they were, you know, jumping on 350 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: my bed, so, you know, with Justin and Sydney always 351 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 3: waking up Cato. And then they named the dog Cato, 352 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 3: and I thought that was an act of the Cato. 353 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 3: The Akita was named because the kids wanted to be Cato. 354 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that cocky evenything. I thought. 355 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, that's yes. 356 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: So it was really endearing. 357 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 3: And I think the biggest thing is living in Brentwood 358 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 3: is when you can find someone you can trust with 359 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 3: your kids, then then it's sort of a grand slam 360 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: for them, because you know, if I wasn't the babysitter, 361 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 3: I was labeled babysitter pool boy. 362 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: I was never that. 363 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 3: But if ever they needed help and I was available, 364 00:15:58,760 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 3: I always was there. 365 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: Now do you ever do you keep in touch with 366 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: them at all? Do you ever see them or talk? 367 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: Nothing? No one at all? 368 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: It? 369 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 3: Uh, you know what that's like. I always think that's 370 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 3: like a dark I'm all about light. But not by 371 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 3: choice or anything. We just it just touch was lost 372 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 3: And I don't know what is going around in the lives, 373 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 3: but I they're wonderful, the best you. 374 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: Know for them. 375 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard to be the Brown family and Kim 376 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: Goldan and fredk There. There are such good people right right. 377 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: At what point did you realize that you you might 378 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: actually become a part of the case, like and not 379 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: just did you know immediately that this was like? How 380 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: did also how did you find out? 381 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: Well? 382 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: I was there. 383 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: That was the morning that all the detectives came to 384 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: my door. 385 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 3: It was like five o five am and there was 386 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 3: a knock at my door and I just saw I 387 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 3: just opened the door and didn't even ask who they were. 388 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: It was kind of dream State. 389 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: I said hey, and then they walked in and said, 390 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: we're la PD detectives, and they just immediately did their 391 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 3: business and they took flashlights, check if I drugs or anything, 392 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: and asked what I wore last night and checked my shoes. 393 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 3: So the whole time, honestly, I was going, oh, my god, 394 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 3: did his plane crash because I knew we went to Chicago. 395 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: Is there a plane crash? 396 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 3: And then the two of them stayed in the room 397 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 3: of an Etter and I believe Furman, and they just said, 398 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 3: asked me about my entire night, and then I said, 399 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: you know, I thought there was an earthquake. 400 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: I heard this noise. 401 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 3: And then they went back there and found the glove 402 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 3: and then they took me and Arnell into the main 403 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: house on the couch and I'm sitting on the couch 404 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 3: and our Nell's sort of where you are, and we 405 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 3: hear detective laying Tom Lang. He's on the phone and 406 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 3: he said, your daughter has been as he wanted to 407 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 3: tell the before the media found out, to let them 408 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 3: know this Seempsons is the Brown family, oh Nicole. 409 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: So that's how I heard it. 410 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: That didn't know anything until that overhearing that conversation and 411 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 3: then I knew immediately that this is going to be gigantic, obviously. 412 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: And the whole time I was thinking, oh my god, 413 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 3: Oh Jason, does he know he's in Chicago. You don't 414 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: associate that until they walked me out. And this is 415 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 3: after talking to me all morning and took me to 416 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: the police station. So they walked me out, and I'll 417 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 3: never forget to see had this wooden floor, so those 418 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 3: little pegs that are like dark pegs and a wooden 419 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 3: for really really nice. And they say, oh, when they're 420 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: walking out, be careful, watch off of the blood. And 421 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 3: then I looked down and I saw these blood drops 422 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 3: and then I was like, oh my god. And that 423 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 3: was the blood they found in the house. 424 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 425 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 3: And I think in hindsight because I'm so addicted to 426 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 3: true crime, and I mean, how a detective would do 427 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 3: a question like that to see if you're aware of 428 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 3: stepping over but you look like, oh my god, and 429 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: then you know. 430 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: It's like like, Okay, he doesn't know that. 431 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they're smart people. 432 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 3: But that was when things were And then I went 433 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 3: to the police station in Santa Monica and I was 434 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: there I think like eight hours and just sat in 435 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 3: a room and they questioned, they just get they weren't. 436 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: It was more an interview. 437 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 2: They were thinking that you were a suspect at the time, not. 438 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: And they kind of got after the first hour, I 439 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: think they and they checked me out. 440 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 3: They were like they assume that you were guys okay, 441 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 3: and then like I said, I was in there forever 442 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 3: and they it was in there's a difference to an interrogation. 443 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: Interview. Mom was interviewed. 444 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 3: They go over everything, and uh, the saddest part was 445 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 3: by my late mom. There's I had no phone calls 446 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: to make, and I remember I've got to find in 447 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 3: my house. It's a it's the half hour tape of 448 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: her bawling because it's calling over and over going because 449 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 3: no one knew who died. 450 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: And they all know they didn't. 451 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 3: Makes just a guy my ate. That whole thing. Family 452 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 3: kept calling and falling police call. So that was like 453 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 3: a twenty four hour period and that that was such 454 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 3: a powerful part of my life. Also to hear Mom's 455 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 3: voice to do that I can so then I get 456 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 3: to release the I mean, they said you can go 457 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: and all that And to this day, Vanetta's passed away. 458 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 3: I became great friends with Tom Lang and the detective 459 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 3: and most of the people in the trial. And like 460 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: I said, I'm not tooting my own horn. And I, 461 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 3: by the way, I don't this experience the the what 462 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: has happened in my life of even while I'm talking 463 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 3: to you today, and I just think of years ago 464 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 3: a private investigator Simpson hired. I didn't know this back 465 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: when I was living at Gretna Green Alla, and then 466 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: during the trial hired him and said, Hey, I'm so 467 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 3: and so uh this it. I said, I want you 468 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 3: to know that I was I've ben following you and 469 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: searching and interviewing people about you. I could not find 470 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 3: one bad thing, so I just wanted you to know that. 471 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, that's really nice here, 472 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 3: I said, look, look harder. 473 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: No I didn't. 474 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 3: I was like, oh wow, I said, I didn't even 475 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 3: know that he had a private eye after me right right, 476 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 3: because I think O J was thinking I got to 477 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 3: hire someone to see who's who am I because. 478 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: The kids and I were wanted and then he wanted 479 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: to know. 480 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 3: If I had any relationship with her, which I never did, 481 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 3: and all the magazines said I had. 482 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 2: How did your relationship with him change before and after. 483 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't see I moved out immediately, you did. 484 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 3: The only time I saw him was at a deposition 485 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 3: for the civil trial. But I was dating a woman 486 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 3: and golfing with all people, Norm MacDonald back in the 487 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 3: day at Brookside and Pasadena. So Norman and I are 488 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 3: golfing and the girl I'm dating is with Norm's friend 489 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 3: in the clubhouse and they comes out. She takes the 490 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 3: cart and goes to see what we're golfing, and she. 491 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: Goes, I don't believe it's here. Oh, Jay's in the. 492 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 3: Clubhouse, and then her friend's going there. She was hitting 493 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 3: on the girl I was. They he didn't know, and 494 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 3: he's all over trying to, you know, make a move 495 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 3: on her, which was his mo o because another girl 496 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 3: I had that came by one time. 497 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: He's all over. It was like, oh my god, oh 498 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: j please. 499 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: Oh my god. So you didn't story, so you didn't 500 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: see him after after there? Do you remember in the 501 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: at the trial when you were on when you were 502 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 2: on the stand, do you do you remember locking eyes 503 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: with him and like, how tell me about that? 504 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: Well, the first thing they said, can you you know 505 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 3: the prosecution says, do you see the defendant here? And 506 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 3: then you have to point and go yeah. So I 507 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 3: think I was six and a half days of testifying, 508 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 3: and I probably by day for something. I was in 509 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 3: my head, I'm going, oh, Jay, if you did this, 510 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: just in my head, I'm going just say you're because 511 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 3: there's so much pain that's going on in the with 512 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 3: the families. Yeah, and the more and more evidence was 513 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 3: coming out that I thought, I think, you know, I 514 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 3: can't prove it. And I think I knew that jury 515 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 3: loved him. They'd wave every day to him when I 516 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 3: was there. 517 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: Wow, wave. 518 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: But so, yeah, you know what you thought? Did you 519 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: think he was guilty? I think it was. 520 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: Pointing towards the guilty. Yeah. 521 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 3: And the beginning, no, when they interviewed, I thought, there's 522 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 3: no way. And then I I was the question. I 523 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 3: didn't listen to the trial during other people's testimony. When 524 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 3: I was allowed to, I did it. When they had 525 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 3: bury Shack with the DNA, I just thought, oh my god, 526 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 3: this slam dunk. And then it just it's sort of 527 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 3: changed because people were like that, you know, we're so 528 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 3: into the freeway juice, juice, juice, and you just saw 529 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 3: the whole thing with more evidence coming out with the trial, it. 530 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 2: Was like, it's yeah, I remember that feeling as a 531 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: spectator of all of this, that there was a point 532 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 2: when everything turned and it went, oh, he is unequivocally 533 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: going to be found guilty. Yeah, and then it turned again. 534 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. I know. There's there's certain things that happened in 535 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: a trial. 536 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 3: With the shots of Robert Kardashian looking surprised when the 537 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: verder comes out, and the pain that you could see 538 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 3: on Kim and Fred Goldman's face and the Browns, it was, 539 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 3: you know, it's it's sort of that's this moment's one 540 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 3: hundred year of that. It'll be talked about and compared. 541 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 3: It's the template for any trial that happens now. And 542 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 3: I you know, anytime there's like a major trial, I 543 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 3: do get calls from to get in my opinion, to say. 544 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: You know, what's going on, And so I got it. 545 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 3: I really, at least I hated it because I was going, God, 546 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 3: I don't want to be associated until I said, I'm 547 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 3: not going to find it. I'm just going to embrace 548 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 3: true crime. And that's wh I start doing these shows. 549 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 3: And I started getting into the true crime and now 550 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 3: it's like the number one genre, and I think, I 551 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 3: really think I have a voice to talk about it. 552 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 3: And of course all the stuff I'm shooting has been like, 553 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 3: oh my god, people are going they're loving it so and. 554 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: I mean there was really something to be said. Again, 555 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: I say this every time. I just said it yesterday 556 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: in an interview that I feel like so many things 557 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 2: that we cover on this podcast are obviously about horrific 558 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: things that happen, and that everybody's sort of faced with 559 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: this issue when something happens, do you lean into your 560 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: life and sort of use that as a means to 561 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 2: move forward, or do you like crumble and you know, 562 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: cease to exist. And I'm just always really impressed when 563 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: people say this is the fabric of my life, Like, 564 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 2: this is what has happened, So I need to acknowledge 565 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: it and live with it and see give it some meaning. 566 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I think there's a everybody's got a blueprint 567 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 3: of their life. And the week two weeks before the 568 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 3: murders happened, you know, I had an agent and all 569 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 3: that I was going on really great readings and I 570 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 3: just read for a film the week before the murders happened, 571 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 3: and then I got called back and they test, they 572 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 3: put me on film, and I'll never get that. It 573 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 3: was for Dumb and Dumber and I was reading the 574 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 3: Harry Lloyd Parks had the long hair. But my buddy 575 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 3: Aaron Myerson produced the film and I was great friends 576 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 3: with Aaron and he was at New Line, one of 577 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 3: the executives there, and he said, you've got and I 578 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 3: hung out with the guy before we're buddies. 579 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: He said, you've got to read the script. You're You're perfect. 580 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: What da da da? 581 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 3: So he got me in and then after that I 582 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 3: was a caricature, and not that I would have even 583 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 3: got the part, but other stuff it was, but I. 584 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: Was getting the had a huge impact on. 585 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 3: And I started getting greetings and then Cato was a 586 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 3: caricature and I was called in for things just I 587 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 3: could know when I cast and they just wanted to 588 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 3: meet me. It was nothing, you know, I was playing Cato. 589 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 3: So but that was I said, there's a blueprint, and 590 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 3: now I kind of see thirty one years later that 591 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 3: it's opening. 592 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 2: Okay, I guess this is what I'm going to do now. Yeah, 593 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I really. 594 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 3: Well and getting parts now like I did two films 595 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 3: I just booked, and I'm like, okay, I think people 596 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 3: can over they cannot see me as Cato because I'm 597 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 3: not putting Cato in them. 598 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: And it took forever. Yeah, and I'm you know, what's 599 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: so funny. 600 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 3: I'm sure it's with you when you're doing your films 601 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 3: from Rocksbury. Everything you are the same, things around you change. 602 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 3: I don't think I change. I think the things around 603 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 3: you and people change because they have the image I am. 604 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: I love people, right, It's really interesting that people. Yeah, 605 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: people still want to talk to me about Clueless. Yeah, 606 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: and the rocks you know, like the matter of sort 607 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: of what you do in light, Like when you make 608 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 2: an imprint in some way, people are always going to 609 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: want to talk about it and you either have to 610 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: say okay or you're going to be sort of you know, 611 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: it's leading an unhappy life where you're constantly trying to 612 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: push something away. 613 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: That's another connection. 614 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 3: So from Buns on Beverly, I went to the Boulevard 615 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 3: where Atlsia Silverston won't always work out. And then our 616 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 3: connection is Paul Rudd and the refrigerator scene said and 617 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: she says she's drinking my the the orange Juice Carton 618 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: and she goes, stop it Cato. 619 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: Oh that's right. 620 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: I forgot, yes, And that was that. 621 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 3: It was the it was iconic nineties thing like he's 622 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 3: the staying there, right, And that's our another connection we have. 623 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: I really forgot about that. 624 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: That's funny. Yep, yep. 625 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: I mean that's we definitely were. Yeah, we are connected, 626 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 2: that's sure. 627 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 628 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: So it's what did your what did your family think 629 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 2: about when they were watching all this unfold they were 630 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 2: still in Wisconsin. Were they just like, what are you 631 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: doing in that crazy y You. 632 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 3: Know, I've got to really, really really I talk to 633 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 3: my family probably every other day, and very you know, 634 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 3: we're raised pretty strict Catholic, and so we had that. 635 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: We had the connection of just always talking. 636 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 3: And because in La everybody would come up to me 637 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 3: and go, hey, you really need a psychologist or a 638 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 3: psychiatrist to. 639 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: See you must be going through stuff. 640 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 3: I said, No, I've gotten family, got My best friends 641 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 3: are still from all My best friends from high school 642 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: and college are very tight. They keep you humble, and 643 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 3: they also they're the best advice yep. And I'm thankful 644 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 3: because in hindsight, you kind of look at that in 645 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 3: your life. You go, God, I still have my same friends. 646 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: I don't know a lot of people can say that, yes, 647 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: that you it really means. 648 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 3: It's everything I mean to this day. It's over forty 649 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 3: four years of the same friends. 650 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 2: That's amazing. All right, Let's talk a little bit about 651 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 2: the Ryan Murphy series The People voj which I thought 652 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: was so compelling and spectacular. But I want to know, 653 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: did you did you feel like that it was true 654 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: to life or it was too dramatic? Like what did 655 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 2: they get right? And what do they get wrong? 656 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: It wasn't true to life. No, it was a lots 657 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: of embellishment. 658 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 3: Because I go, if you go back and you can 659 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 3: go this I wrote. They gave me the screen of 660 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 3: the New York Daily News said will you write an 661 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 3: article on the first screener? So they gave me the 662 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 3: screener when it was coming out, and I thought, God, 663 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 3: it's a chance to kind of show people that they, 664 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: you know, kind of Kato can can. 665 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: Write something very servant. 666 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 3: So I wrote that and they loved it, and then 667 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 3: they asked they gave me all ten screeners. I wrote 668 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 3: ten articles, and then the second one gone the USA Today, 669 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: and I said, and third episode, they were putting me 670 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 3: in stuff. I said, now, it's too much cato, even 671 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 3: for Kato, because they were putting they were putting me 672 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 3: in scenes that I was never part of. And there's 673 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 3: no the day after all the families that came to 674 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 3: visit the then a SWAT team members that came by. 675 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 3: I was there and the Swat came by, So I 676 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 3: wasn't there at all. I wasn't the people they the Kardashians, 677 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 3: they did a lot of stuff with Kardashians, but the 678 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 3: girl Kardashians they did because at that time, the Empire 679 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,239 Speaker 3: in real life was really taking off, and so Ryan 680 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 3: Murphy kind of genius kept putting them in and that 681 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 3: was a huge draw of the series. 682 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: That was what it was compelling, Sarah. I watched it 683 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: and it's huge. 684 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 3: Ray. I think it got seventeen Emmy or at least 685 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 3: eight Emmys. 686 00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: I thought it was Yeah. 687 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 3: The performance, yeah, just and and Billy Maguson never wanted 688 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 3: to meet with I thought, it's kind of weird that 689 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 3: I would, no matter what, would want to meet the 690 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 3: person even if you don't want to. 691 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: Who played you, He didn't want to meet you. 692 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 3: You didn't want to meet and then I saw him 693 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: on an interview. He said he didn't want to meet, 694 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 3: but he said all these great things of people that 695 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 3: around me that met me, and he said it would 696 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 3: take away from performance. But I heard nothing, but like 697 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 3: I said, about these good things and I'm not once again, 698 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 3: it makes me feel so wonderful. And I said, Okay, 699 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 3: I like this guy. 700 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, yeah, and reason yeah. 701 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 3: I think he was stuck with that. He's going to 702 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 3: do Spacoli from Fast Time, just my character in matter? 703 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: What about Nicole? Did you think that they portrayed her? 704 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: She's hardly I feel like she's not even a part 705 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 2: of that. That was devastating, I would imagine. 706 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: Which is what I wondered. 707 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 3: But if he did that to show that that it 708 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 3: never really became about the people, I don't know if 709 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 3: you thought that. 710 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: So maybe he thought, like. 711 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously she's not alive during the trial, so 712 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 2: they can't really put it. But it did feel like 713 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 2: I wanted to hear more about her, And you know. 714 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that one is a tough one 715 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 3: because it was more entertainment. Then you had the documentaries 716 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 3: that are sort of true to the facts that kind of. 717 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: Happened do you where were you during the Bronco chase? 718 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 2: What were you doing? Are watching like all of us? 719 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: Yeah? I was. 720 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 3: I was actually watching the Bronco chase at friend's house 721 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: and all my friends are watching it. We're watching the 722 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 3: Nick Houston game too, and it was interrupted. 723 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 2: So I could not understand that. As a New Yorker, 724 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: I could not understand. 725 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 3: It exactly that I was kind of saying that people 726 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 3: I was with us, I was like, Okay, that's ac 727 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 3: cow People didn't know Struggle, it's a c Cowling's driving. 728 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 3: There's then they said he had a gun and I said, 729 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 3: it is no possible by this guy's going to shoot 730 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 3: himself because he loves himself. 731 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 2: And I think you thought that. You were like, right, 732 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 2: this is a is yeah. 733 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 3: And then I saw when the Bronco pulled up how 734 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 3: Jason went out there and the SWAT team kind of 735 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 3: pulled him away, and I was saying, they were good, 736 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 3: who's that? I said, well, that's the son Jason and 737 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 3: you know that so and then they you're not the 738 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 3: Ryan Murphy thing. It made it really big with the 739 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 3: swat team members all with the sniper's pointing right, but 740 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 3: there were there were swat there. 741 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: But and you know that was just from my watching it. 742 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 3: But yeah, it you look at this, you go this, No, 743 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 3: this really happened, and it really happened, right people cheering 744 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 3: on the Free It's like unbelievable. 745 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 2: This was kind of the beginning of not only like 746 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: the courtroom involved with you know, people becoming obsessed. And 747 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 2: I feel like it was one of the first trials 748 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: when they allowed cameras, which was probably a gigantic mistake, 749 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: but it really just inflated all of that in this 750 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 2: which allowed the public w could Arguably most people that 751 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 2: were standing on those overpasses with their science did not 752 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 2: know O. J. Simpson personally. So it was like this 753 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: way of the entire nation being growing. 754 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 3: People kept watching and want to be part of it. 755 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 3: They'd go down to Brentwood, they'd go down to the Free. 756 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 3: They knew exactly because it was being broadcast the Chase, 757 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 3: so they knew where they could see it. 758 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 1: And it was it was. It's honestly crazy. 759 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 3: And if you think about it that, like you said, 760 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 3: it did start. 761 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: It started. 762 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 3: Core TV started the shows on Seen and with the 763 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 3: burden approof like six other shows and three networks started 764 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: from a trial, because that was that it was going 765 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 3: to be. Trials are huge news. People love like. 766 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: That is that people are so fascinated. 767 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 3: I think it's because they look at that and they go, oh, 768 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 3: my life's not that bad and they relate to it. 769 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of the Homer Simpson, the whole 770 00:34:59,080 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: different Simpson. 771 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 3: So it's kind of that Homer Simpson thing where you know, 772 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 3: everybody watches Homer and go they relate because the Homer's 773 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 3: got the worst life ever, and they kind of relate. 774 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 3: They watch and go, my life's not that bad, right, 775 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 3: and they want to see other people. I think people 776 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 3: like to see other people in pain and to save 777 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 3: their life is better. 778 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you were with Barbara Walters, which this was 779 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,240 Speaker 2: news to me. I just learned this not romantically, although 780 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: there was this, but when the verdict was read, tell 781 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 2: me about that. What was that like and why were 782 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 2: you there? 783 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 3: And we were actually in Central City the we're sitting 784 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 3: in these chairs like in an auditorium. The I think 785 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 3: it was like the Diehard of the Noomacomie Plaza and 786 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 3: Nkotomi Plaza next to it, So people can kind of 787 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 3: relate in their head where it is so we're in 788 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 3: the central city and we're going to do an interview after. 789 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 3: But while the VERTIC's going on, I decided I don't 790 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 3: want to be interviewed live. 791 00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: She wanted to do live there. 792 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 3: I said, no, it's I do live it be And 793 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 3: then she asked me without the cameras on what I thought. 794 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: And I said, I think they made a huge mistake. 795 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: I whispered, and she said I do too. So that 796 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,479 Speaker 1: was it. But I I. 797 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 3: Know, you know, the jury said one of the evidence 798 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 3: in that. But the jury they really liked him a lot. 799 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 3: And I think at the time of LA with the 800 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 3: Rodney King and everything was you know, it wasn't supposed 801 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 3: to be done in Santa Monica. It was done in downtown, 802 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 3: so I think all the elements sort of added up, 803 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 3: but it was going to be you know, the big thing. 804 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 3: People were saying, it's like you could have videotaped it, 805 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 3: OJ would have got off. I mean, that's what people 806 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 3: were saying at that time, because it was. 807 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 2: It was a it really does. I talked about this 808 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 2: with Keith too. How unfortunate it's like, for lack of 809 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: a better word, it was the timing of that because 810 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: they exploited a very real, horrible thing that had happened 811 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 2: with Rodney King and the racial tensions in the city 812 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 2: and the racist cops, like all those things were very real, 813 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 2: and they I feel like they exploited that for this 814 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: trial and made it about that once again. 815 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 3: It was how you can form stuff for media, how 816 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 3: the news, the clips, and how people can go you 817 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 3: know what, OJ's going to be. 818 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: Innocent, yep. 819 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 3: And you know what's being worse is how they divided 820 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 3: when the verdict came out, how they divided black and white. 821 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 2: I know. 822 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 3: And it just put LA fifteen fifteen, twenty years behind again, 823 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 3: right because it just divided everything. Yes, yeah it was, 824 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 3: and we're still it's. 825 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 2: Still a big mess. Yeah it is. How did so 826 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 2: did you? Did you never talk to Oj again? 827 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 1: Just the deposition? That was that deposition in the bathroom. 828 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 2: And he Were you afraid of him after he was 829 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: let off? 830 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: I guess a little bit. 831 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 3: I just kept thinking, you know, the when it actually ended, 832 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 3: I was fearful that something could happen. I didn't know 833 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: where people stood, because some people loved me and then 834 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 3: some people hated me. I mean, incidents of being spit on. 835 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 3: There's incidents of putting twotsy suckers in my TUTSI pops 836 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 3: in my head and my hair. It's like from behind no, 837 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 3: I mean, weird things happened because people thought. 838 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 2: It was your fault that he was let off, or 839 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 2: that they were mad that you were. 840 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 3: People thought that I didn't come say everything, that I 841 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 3: come through it all the truth, and I wasn't there. 842 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 3: I didn't know. I thought I answered everything. I met 843 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 3: with Marshall Clark many times, and so I was one 844 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 3: and percent honest. But people, you know, you kind of 845 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 3: looked at it as a soap opera, and people thought 846 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 3: I was a character and I. 847 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: Was in cato. 848 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 3: So it was I get it where they're mad, but 849 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 3: they don't know that I was one hundred percent honest 850 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 3: and that's it. So a lot of times people would say, well, 851 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 3: why did you look like a deer, you know in 852 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 3: the headlights. It's because I had so many reviews there 853 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 3: and I don't remember that question. When you say a question, 854 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 3: you think in your head, and so I'm looking, I 855 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 3: forget the cameras are there, and I'm thinking in my 856 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 3: head like that the question is this, So I get 857 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 3: I get okay. 858 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: The cameras on mean, that's why I'm thinking. It makes 859 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: me look like. 860 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,760 Speaker 2: And she they referred to you as a hostile witness. 861 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 2: Is that why? Like, what was that about? 862 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 3: Supposedly from finding out from other lawyers, it's that she 863 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 3: could question me in a different way. 864 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: But from all the attorneys. 865 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,240 Speaker 3: I met that that are very smart, smart attorneys. 866 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: They said, the worst thing she could have done I 867 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: was her witness. 868 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 2: This has been such a wild conversation and honestly we 869 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: are just getting into it. So we are going to 870 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 2: pick this right back up in our next episode.