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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at

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Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarclay and Android

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Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Investors are not waiting around for an official announcement on

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Speaker 2: this auto tariff delay. Just watch GM. This is a

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Speaker 2: pretty remarkable moment here following the big speech last night,

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Speaker 2: So welcome yes to the day after the Wednesday edition

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Speaker 2: of Balance of Power here on Bloomberg Radio, the satellite

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Speaker 2: radio channel one twenty one, and on YouTube, where you

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Speaker 2: can find us right now by searching Bloomberg Business News Live.

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Speaker 2: No travel schedule for Donald Trump. I guess he's sleeping

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Speaker 2: this offul little bit. But he is also meeting with

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Speaker 2: members of Congress here to talk about the way forward

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Speaker 2: on a budget resolution, reconciliation and maybe even and funding

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Speaker 2: the government ten days from now. But we've got a

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Speaker 2: lot to unpack from last night, as Wall Street shakes

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Speaker 2: it off here on this fifth of March with news

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Speaker 2: on tariffs following tariff Tuesday and a speech to a

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Speaker 2: joint Session of Congress that embraced what Donald Trump considers

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Speaker 2: the most beautiful word in the dictionary. Let's listen.

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Speaker 3: If you don't make your product in America, however, under

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Speaker 3: the Trump administration, you will pay a tariff, and in

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Speaker 3: some cases a rather large one. Countless other nations charge

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Speaker 3: us tremendously higher tariffs than we charge them. April second,

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Speaker 3: reciprocal tariffs kick in.

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Speaker 4: The tariffs will.

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Speaker 3: Go on agricultural product coming into America and our farmers

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Speaker 3: starting on April second. It may be a little bit

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Speaker 3: of an adjustment period. I've also imposed a twenty five

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Speaker 3: percent tariff on foreign aluminum, copper, lumber, and steel. Tariffs

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Speaker 3: are about making America richie again and making America great again.

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Speaker 3: And it's happening, and it will happen rather quickly. There'll

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Speaker 3: be a little disturbance, but we're okay with that.

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Speaker 2: A little disturbance in the force. We were watching, so

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Speaker 2: you didn't have to one hundred minutes long. Everybody crawled

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Speaker 2: out of here around midnight last night. Nine thousand, eight

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Speaker 2: hundred eighty eight words. According to the transcript, Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: went for broke, and indeed broke President Bill Clinton's eighty

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Speaker 2: eight minute record. Remember in conclusion, that's where we start

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Speaker 2: our conversation with Ashley Davis, who was also watching along

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Speaker 2: last evening, Republican strategist partner S three Group, former senior

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Speaker 2: Stafford the Apartment of Homeland Security. Ashley, it's great to

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Speaker 2: see you. Welcome back. I don't know if you've recovered

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Speaker 2: from a record setter last night, But was it time

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Speaker 2: well spent because the market's still pretty confused about tariff

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Speaker 2: Tuesday among a lot of other things.

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't think anything's will spent for one hundred minutes,

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Speaker 5: So no, I don't think so. But I do miss

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Speaker 5: the Bush days when everyone criticized him for not talking

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Speaker 5: long enough, and we all miss that. But listen, it

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Speaker 5: was these the last few years have turned into political speeches.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I feel that last night in some ways

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Speaker 5: we've all hit a new low in regards to how

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Speaker 5: the Democrats were reacting, how the Republicans have reacted under

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Speaker 5: when Democrats spoke, And you know, I just I don't

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Speaker 5: like it when you have different positive messages that are

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Speaker 5: coming out, whether it's about a death of somebody or

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Speaker 5: whatever it is, that you can't be you're so angry

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Speaker 5: at each other that you can't support some of that stuff.

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Speaker 5: So that's what I would say, just from a high level.

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Speaker 5: But obviously we've been talking about this Joe for the

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Speaker 5: last year, about his favorite word being tariffs. Yesterday, I

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Speaker 5: think he knew exactly what he was doing. The team

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Speaker 5: knew exactly what they were doing in regards to putting

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Speaker 5: these tariffs, at least in place for a short period

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Speaker 5: of time. I think that they knew it was going

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Speaker 5: to impact the markets. It obviously did impact the markets.

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Speaker 5: You see them taking a step back today. I thought Lutinx,

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Speaker 5: that secretary of Lutinik on Bloomberg earlier today, gave a

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Speaker 5: lot of information in regards to any type of exemptions

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Speaker 5: and saying that if there are going to be exemptions

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Speaker 5: that the President puts in place over the next month,

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Speaker 5: that we should look at USMCA and the exemptions that

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Speaker 5: are there. So I think they are starting to show

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Speaker 5: the te leues. I think it was very pointed today

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Speaker 5: that he just put out the announcement on the automobiles,

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Speaker 5: because what, look what the market's doing.

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Speaker 6: So I.

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Speaker 5: People say crazy like a fox, and you know, I

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Speaker 5: don't back off that. Sometimes I'm not saying it's right

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Speaker 5: or wrong, but I don't think that they are. You know,

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Speaker 5: when he was in the first time, everyone was like, no,

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Speaker 5: he doesn't know how to run the country. Dah da

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Speaker 5: da dah. But they've been preparing for this for years,

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Speaker 5: and I do think that he's going to continue to

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Speaker 5: use these tariffs, not just on the financial parts, but

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Speaker 5: also in regards to foreign policy.

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Speaker 2: You're a strategist, Ashley, though you're a communicator by profession.

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Speaker 2: You know how to tell an elected official, how to

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Speaker 2: crystallize a message, and how not to get in trouble,

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Speaker 2: how not to break into jail. That cut we just

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Speaker 2: heard from Donald Trump. There'll be a little disturbance talking

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Speaker 2: about tariffs, but we're okay with that. It won't be

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Speaker 2: much that's begging to be put in a campaign at

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Speaker 2: if this thing turns south, isn't it. Oh?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: But I regret saying that.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if he will because is it going

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Speaker 5: to really impact him. He can't run again, so it's

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Speaker 5: going to be more that the House and Senate members

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Speaker 5: that are going to be up for reelection, the governors,

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Speaker 5: you know, doesn't have a triple down effect. But I

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Speaker 5: think one thing that he definitely has to deal with,

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Speaker 5: which was not addressed last night, were the pocketbook issues

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Speaker 5: in regards to egg prices. I mean, we can go

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Speaker 5: on and on. I don't need to name them. So

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Speaker 5: tariffs from.

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Speaker 2: Said those are Joe Biden's zagg.

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Speaker 5: Prices exactly exactly. Well, that's not going to last for

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Speaker 5: you can't Does you get to do that?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I mean I remember saying this when Biden came in

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Speaker 5: with Trump, like, you can't continue to blame Trump for

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Speaker 5: how you know, six months a year after that they left.

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Speaker 5: So there has to be a grasp because I don't

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Speaker 5: know if the everyday Americans really paying attention to the

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Speaker 5: tariffs like you and I are, but I think that

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Speaker 5: they're definitely paying attention to their grocery bills.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he told Congress to scrap the Chips Act and

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Speaker 2: send spend the money on reducing debt. I realized the

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Speaker 2: spirit of kind of rescinding or overturning the Biden agenda

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Speaker 2: is part of Donald Trump's approach here. But doesn't that

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Speaker 2: argue with the idea of bringing businesses like this back

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Speaker 2: to the US.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and I that was actually something I was pretty

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Speaker 5: surprised about, right, before he went on that they were

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Speaker 5: going to concentrate on that. I you know, just seeing

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Speaker 5: come some of the talking points. I and especially because

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Speaker 5: that was a pretty bipartisan bill, I would think he's

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Speaker 5: talking about some of the money that wasn't spent at

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Speaker 5: Commerce yet that maybe reappropriating that or moving that to

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Speaker 5: different parts of the agency for different priorities. But I

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Speaker 5: don't think that that can happen in regards to legislation

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Speaker 5: that's already earmarked for certain things. I mean, we'll see.

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Speaker 5: I mean, we have this, we're having this discussion all

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Speaker 5: the time of how money is being spent with those cuts.

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Speaker 5: But that was a surprise. So I don't know where

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Speaker 5: that's going at this point, but I will see.

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Speaker 2: Would you think of the Democrats in the room the

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Speaker 2: Algreen demonstration. We're three minutes into this thing. Actually I

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Speaker 2: thought it was going off the rails. Donald Trump did

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Speaker 2: seem to get things under control again, or at least

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Speaker 2: Democrats gave up on the initial effort to protest. There

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Speaker 2: were a few who walked out, like Bernie Sanders, a

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Speaker 2: few who boycotted. Does any of this.

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Speaker 5: Matter No, I mean, I think this is kind of

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Speaker 5: the polarization of the country and you saw it once again.

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Speaker 5: Just what I said at the beginning of the show

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Speaker 5: though that concerns me is you do have issues that

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Speaker 5: we can't agree on, or tragedies that we should all

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Speaker 5: be agreeing on. That just we can't even be doing

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Speaker 5: that from both sides of the aisles. So I mean,

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Speaker 5: does it make people look I'm just saying this from

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Speaker 5: a Democrat perspective because they're in the minority right now,

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Speaker 5: but they don't look classy when they're reacting that way

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Speaker 5: in regards to you know what, yelling and during the speech. Obviously,

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Speaker 5: I'd say the same thing for Arjorie Taylor Green when

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Speaker 5: Biden was doing it. So both sides do it, and

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Speaker 5: it's just I think it's not a good way to act.

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Speaker 2: Joe, Well, that's right, and that's that's why we like you. Actually,

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Speaker 2: you were brought up the right way. It was kind

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Speaker 2: of weird watching that they're holding up the signs. I

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Speaker 2: thought I was looking at an auction holding.

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Speaker 8: Up it's trashy.

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Speaker 2: I forget it was congressomme to leave had a whiteboard.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to start doing that with some guests when

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Speaker 2: they don't answer my questions. I'm going to hold up

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Speaker 2: the whiteboard. You can just watch the YouTube feed and

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Speaker 2: figure out how I feel about it. Just a minute left,

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Speaker 2: Ashley Davis, it's great to have you here. Is Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump going to be defined in this second term by

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Speaker 2: the tariffs or is there more to it?

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Speaker 5: I don't know. I mean, we thought this. We had

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Speaker 5: the same conversation in twenty eighteen twenty, you know, end

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Speaker 5: of twenty seventeen, beginning twenty eighteen, and then look what

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Speaker 5: happened after the tough terroriffs were put on in China

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Speaker 5: and everyone said the world's going to come to an end,

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Speaker 5: and then Biden never overturned those tariffs. So I think

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Speaker 5: that there will be exemptions just like there were before.

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Speaker 5: I think obviously China and Mexico, and as Sectuary of

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Speaker 5: Utnik said today, that's a war on drugs, not on tariffs.

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Speaker 5: We'll see. We'll see what happens on April second. With

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Speaker 5: reciprocal tariffs. I think that's obviously a big negotiating tactic

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Speaker 5: for the president as well. I think these can be

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Speaker 5: defined on a lot. We'll see. Remember last week we

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Speaker 5: were talking about Ukraine in the fight in the Oval.

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Speaker 5: So this is just a topic of the day.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, Ashley, the world shifts again under our feet.

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Speaker 2: Come see us when you're back in the Capitol. It's

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Speaker 2: always our pleasure to spend time with the great Ashley Davis,

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Speaker 2: Republican Strategist, S three Group, Joe Matthew in Washington. We're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about the tariffs in our second hour

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Speaker 2: with former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. Much more ahead, Keller

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Speaker 2: at Large is coming in hot from Boston. Next.

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Speaker 1: Right here on Bloomberg, you're listening to the Bloomberg Balance

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Speaker 1: of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and

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Speaker 1: five pm. E's durn on Apple Cockley and Android Auto

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Speaker 1: with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live

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Speaker 1: on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just

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Speaker 1: say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty as.

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Speaker 2: We peek out of one eye today in the nation's capital.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's a little bit bleary after the longest speech in

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Speaker 2: recorded history, at least before a joint session of Congress. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: one hundred minutes. Truly, you were with us live for

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Speaker 2: the duration on Bloomberg Radio and on Bloomberg Television, eight

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Speaker 2: hundred eighty eight words, much of it having to do

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Speaker 2: with tariffs, but also funding the government. What are we

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Speaker 2: nine days out now, nine days out from a shutdown?

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Speaker 2: As we seek the truth here on Bloomberg, straddling both

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Speaker 2: ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, we can tell you that Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump is meeting with House Republicans today at the White

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Speaker 2: House on crafting a plan to avoid a shutdown. Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk on the other end on Capitol Hill, meeting with

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Speaker 2: lawmakers following his fetting last night in the House Chamber. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: today the House Oversight Committee is busy. Jim Colmer had

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Speaker 2: an early start after a late night drawing Democratic mayors

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Speaker 2: from sanctuary cities around the country to testify before the committee. Interesting,

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Speaker 2: none of the mayors of these cities ever call them

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Speaker 2: sanctuary cities. But as you consider the idea here of

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Speaker 2: the Oversight trying to get some buzz and a very

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Speaker 2: busy news cycle, there's only one strategy left, and that

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Speaker 2: is video production. They actually made a trailer for this

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Speaker 2: hearing that unfolded this morning with the likes of Mayor

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Speaker 2: Eric Adams of New York, Michelle wou of Boston. Here's

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Speaker 2: a taste.

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Speaker 3: But provide sanctuary and protection for dangerous criminals push back in.

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Speaker 9: The sanctuary City of Boston, Mayor Michelle wou So the

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Speaker 9: city will not cooperate with his plan for mass deportation.

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Speaker 6: These agents in Massachusetts arresting two illegal immigrants facing it

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Speaker 6: sex crimes against children and two separate instances.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just a taste. This thing's a couple of

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Speaker 2: minutes long, a lot of grainy images. I think I

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Speaker 2: saw a couple of my old colleagues from the Boston

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Speaker 2: News business in there. The Herald looming large. And if

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Speaker 2: you're with us on ninety two nine, we see you

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Speaker 2: because we wanted to get into this testimony today from

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Speaker 2: the view of one of these cities. This is big

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Speaker 2: local news. You don't need me to tell you that.

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Speaker 2: If you're in Boston, if you're in New York, if

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Speaker 2: you're in Chicago or Denver. And we have the voice

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Speaker 2: of Boston politics with us, the Dean of Boston Politics,

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Speaker 2: the great John Keller keleret Large, political analyst at the

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Speaker 2: CBS affiliate my alma man Ter wdbz's with us now

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Speaker 2: live from the Lawless City of Boston. The dystopian landscape, John,

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Speaker 2: I'm picturing burning garbage cans and cars, as you join

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Speaker 2: us from the middle of Blade Runner. You know, I

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Speaker 2: checked to see if I could get a trailer for

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Speaker 2: us here, John, and it's not in the budget. And

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering what is the point of this whole exercise.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, the only car is being overturned here in Boston

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Speaker 10: are after one of our pro sports teams wins another championship.

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Speaker 10: Maybe some college students get a little liquored up and

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Speaker 10: go overboard.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, in in there for that.

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Speaker 10: I've been watching this. Go ahead, Joe.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, no, I've been there for that. You tell me

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Speaker 2: what did you see today? You're watching so our viewers

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Speaker 2: and listeners didn't have to.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, well, I understand why the Republicans wanted to stage

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Speaker 10: this hearing. Gives them a chance to crank up the

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Speaker 10: video machine, as you just pointed out, which feeds the

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Speaker 10: fervor and the fear in their base. And there's no

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Speaker 10: question about it. Immigration and lack of controls over immigration,

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Speaker 10: lack of a comprehensive plan, has been a winning political

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Speaker 10: issue for the Republicans. Donald Trump has refined it to

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Speaker 10: an art form, so I get it. But so far,

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Speaker 10: the hearing is a huge dud for the Republicans. You

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Speaker 10: know the problem is they've all been salivating ever since

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Speaker 10: in December of twenty three when they hauled the three

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Speaker 10: college presidents before this oversight committee hearing. Remember Claudine Gay

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Speaker 10: from Harvard, the presidents of PAAA MIT and they were

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Speaker 10: just turned into mincemeat by the panelists. Well, that's not

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Speaker 10: what's going on today, because big city mayors are not

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Speaker 10: college presidents. With all due respect to the I'm sure

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Speaker 10: many college presidents in your audience, Joe, these mayors know

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Speaker 10: how to how to engage in a fight, and they

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Speaker 10: came ready. But they really haven't been challenged. In particular.

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Speaker 10: Mayor Wu, supposedly presiding over this paradise for rapists, has

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Speaker 10: yet to be confronted with any specific evidence of any

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Speaker 10: kind of malfeasance attributable to Boston's status as a sanctuary city.

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Speaker 10: Time and again, the mayors have been patiently explaining to

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Speaker 10: frustrated Republicans that if there's an illegal undocumented immigrant who's

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Speaker 10: wanted on a violent crime charge and there's a warrant

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Speaker 10: over to ice, they go, no problem, no questions asked,

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Speaker 10: and they haven't been able to refute it so so far.

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Speaker 10: It's democratic mayors, ten Republicans on the Oversight Committee zero

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Speaker 10: and we're only in the third thing.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's get a taste of this because

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Speaker 2: to your point, John, Michelle wou did come armed with

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Speaker 2: actual data when it came to crime rates in the city.

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Speaker 11: Let's listen, this federal administration is making hard working, tax paying,

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Speaker 11: god fearing residents afraid to live their lives. A city

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Speaker 11: that's scared is not a city that's safe. A land

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Speaker 11: ruled by fear is not the land of the free.

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Speaker 11: Next month, Boston will celebrate two hundred and fifty years

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Speaker 11: of our nation's freedom. And in every one of those years,

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Speaker 11: Boston has welcomed the world to our shores.

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Speaker 2: John. She went on to say that each year she's

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Speaker 2: been in office, the murder rate has declined in the

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Speaker 2: city of Boston. She came packed with data that argued

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Speaker 2: with what some of the Republican committee members were saying.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious how this is playing at home, because all

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Speaker 2: of these Democratic mayors have one thing in common. They

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Speaker 2: held news conferences before they left, and they got a

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Speaker 2: lot of local coverage, and most of it was positive.

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Speaker 2: Is that the case in Boston?

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Speaker 10: Well, I mean as far as today's hearing goes, remains

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Speaker 10: to be seen. But I'm going to be commenting on

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Speaker 10: this later on our local news, and I guarantee you

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Speaker 10: I'm going to give her a good review. And you know,

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Speaker 10: I've had my dust ups with Mayor Woo in the past.

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Speaker 10: I'm sure we'll have others in the future. But she's

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Speaker 10: handling this very well. I mean a tip of the

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Speaker 10: cap to the Boston Police Department. They've been doing a

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Speaker 10: great job and it shows up in the crime stats,

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Speaker 10: which is some of the best for a major American city.

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Speaker 10: So there's really no they're there for the Republicans on

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Speaker 10: this panel to get a grip on. And I also

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Speaker 10: think Jonah this has been kind of interesting. She's the

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Speaker 10: only woman on a panel for mayors. They seem reluctant

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Speaker 10: to go after her. You know, it's Ash Wednesday. She's

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Speaker 10: got the Ash cross on her forehead. And while she's

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Speaker 10: generally a sort of a soft spoken person, she has

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Speaker 10: come prepared. Her Her body language is good, her voice

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Speaker 10: quality is calm, or demeanor is calm and composed. But

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Speaker 10: as you heard in that bite, she's got a little

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Speaker 10: aggressive with her criticism of the Republican policies. One of

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Speaker 10: the quick things Joe. In the run up to this,

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Speaker 10: Mayor Wu and local advocates been making a big issue

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Speaker 10: of the impact of the deportations and the ice, the

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Speaker 10: increased ice activity on local businesses. Businesses that cater to

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Speaker 10: the immigrant community's restaurants, pizza joints, you name it. These

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Speaker 10: places are struggling. They're deserted because many immigrants are afraid

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Speaker 10: to go out. So I know you've interviewed the US

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Speaker 10: Chamber of Commerceville so many times about their concerns about

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Speaker 10: mass deportation. I thought I heard James Comer, the chairman

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Speaker 10: of this committee, at one point say, oh, well, there

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Speaker 10: is no mass deportation. Maybe I misheard that, but if

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Speaker 10: he did say it, maybe that indicates a rising level

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Speaker 10: of concern in Republican circles about how all this is playing,

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Speaker 10: at least within the business community.

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Speaker 2: Spending time with John Keller on Balance of Powerful only

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Speaker 2: got a couple of minutes left. John, I want to

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Speaker 2: ask you about what appears to be that the dust

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Speaker 2: up locally. You can tell me. Josh Kraft, who's of

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Speaker 2: course challenging Michelle Wou was tweeting on X do we

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Speaker 2: need to spend six hundred and fifty thousand dollars a

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Speaker 2: taxpayer funds on a show trial hearing. There's a story

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Speaker 2: that she spent as much money on an outside law

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Speaker 2: firm to prepare for this. Is that true and what

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Speaker 2: do you know about it?

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Speaker 10: Apparently it's true. Nine hundred dollars an hour this law

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Speaker 10: firm charges, And of course my immediate reaction, Joe, was

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Speaker 10: what am I doing in this?

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Speaker 2: No kidding?

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Speaker 10: Why didn't I get into that racket? But while the

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Speaker 10: six hundred and fifty thousand dollars figure, which was confirmed

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Speaker 10: by the city that they've spent in six weeks of

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Speaker 10: prep for today's hearing is an eye popping figure, it

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Speaker 10: sort of looks so far like money well spent. As

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Speaker 10: I say, Mayor Wu is knocking it out of the park.

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Speaker 10: We put in a call for comment to Josh Kraft

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Speaker 10: to who's her most significant challenger so far, it'd be

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Speaker 10: interesting to see if he even wants to talk about it.

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Speaker 10: That's how well it's going for Michelle Wu.

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Speaker 2: Amazing, I've only got a minute left, John, you're going

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Speaker 2: to be talking about I know you're already writing about

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Speaker 2: it on the website. The big speech last night. Was

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Speaker 2: that a win for Donald Trump? We saw a number

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Speaker 2: of folks recoil from the Democratic delegation in Massachusetts. I

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Speaker 2: believe it was Jim McGovern said he would rather have

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Speaker 2: needles in his eyeballs than sit through that.

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Speaker 10: I'm sure that could be arranged if he wants to

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Speaker 10: talk to Tom Holman's the ice guy. But you know

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Speaker 10: it was it was a win in the sense of,

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Speaker 10: you're basically speaking uncontested. You know, the cutaways of Democrats

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Speaker 10: holding up lame little signs. That's not going to move

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Speaker 10: the needle for them. So the Trump basse, I'm sure

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Speaker 10: loved it. Catnet for them.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it hurts the.

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Speaker 10: Democratic bait to get a full.

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Speaker 2: Of the Trump is now a political rally apparently. Hey John,

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Speaker 2: thank you as always the great John Keller, a great

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Speaker 2: friend of the program. Keller at Large Busy in Boston

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Speaker 2: will keep tabs on the hearing for you and assimilar panel. Next,

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Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

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Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on

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Speaker 1: Half o'cock and Android Otto with the Bloomberg Business Up.

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Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch

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Speaker 1: us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Looks like we have breaking news on this matter, Kayley,

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Speaker 2: and look no further than truth social Donald Trump so

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Speaker 2: frequently making the announcement on social media, why hold an event?

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Speaker 2: Justin Trudeau of Canada called me to ask what could

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Speaker 2: be done about tariffs. I told him many people have

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Speaker 2: died from fentanyl came through the borders of Canada and Mexico,

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Speaker 2: and nothing has convinced me that it has stopped. Is

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Speaker 2: this good news, Kayley? He said it's gotten better, but

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Speaker 2: I said that's not good enough, calling it in a

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Speaker 2: somewhat friendly manner, unable to tell them when the Canadian

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Speaker 2: election is taking place, which made me curious, like what's

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Speaker 2: going on here the president of the United States rights

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Speaker 2: I then realized he is trying to use this issue

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Speaker 2: to stay in power. Good luck justin exclamation point. Tariff's

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Speaker 2: still on?

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Speaker 12: Well, it would seem so. At least there's very little

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Speaker 12: suggestion in this post that tariffs are off. As he said,

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Speaker 12: what he has seen from Canada to this point on

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Speaker 12: fentanyl is not good enough. Leaving the domestic Canadian politics aside,

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Speaker 12: we should point out that Prime Minister Trudeau has said

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Speaker 12: he is stepping down. There is no indication for him

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Speaker 12: that he actually is changing his mind about that, trying

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Speaker 12: to remain in his position. But on the fentanyl issue

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Speaker 12: specifically is and this is fitting with the framing this

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Speaker 12: administration has put out there that this is about a

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Speaker 12: drug war, not a trade war. This is what the

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Speaker 12: Commerce Secretary was alluding to. What they're trying to do

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Speaker 12: right now, they say is actually just dem the flow

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Speaker 12: of fentanyl. The real trade war starts what less than

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Speaker 12: four weeks from now on April second, when reciprocal tariffs

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Speaker 12: go it.

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Speaker 2: If they go into place, If yes? What are the

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Speaker 2: panel thinks about this? Rick Davis and Genie Shanzino are

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Speaker 2: whether this Bloomberg Politics contributors our signature panel. They were

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Speaker 2: up all night with us as well listening to and

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Speaker 2: watching this address. He of course partner at Stoneport Capital,

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Speaker 2: at Republican Strategists, genius political science professor at Iona University

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Speaker 2: or democratic analyst, Rick, What do you think about this

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Speaker 2: update here? Can we assume based on this anecdotal a

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Speaker 2: post by Donald Trump at the tariffs will stick?

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00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 10: Yeah?

435
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 7: I think so until they don't stick. Look, I mean

436
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 7: we need to understand Donald Trump sees tariffs as a

437
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 7: tactic strategy is to you know, make America rich again,

438
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 7: and tariffs are a component of that and probably the

439
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 7: component he loves to talk about most.

440
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: But he's he's like a day trader.

441
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 7: You know, let's put the tariffs on today, We'll take

442
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 7: him off tomorrow and put him back on a day later. Frankly,

443
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 7: much like his handling of the Ukrainian War. Well, we're

444
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 7: going to find a deal we can do, and then

445
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 7: once we do that deal, we'll have some talks about

446
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 7: peace treaties.

447
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 4: You know.

448
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 7: It's it's very transactional. It's that you know, sort of

449
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 7: mercantile government that we've been talking about since day one

450
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 7: of his administration. So it shouldn't surprise anybody that he's

451
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 7: going to adjust these things. But remember he put these

452
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 7: tariffs against China and other trading partners together in the

453
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 7: beginning of his administration and many of those are still

454
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 7: in place today. So I we have no doubt his

455
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 7: long term plan is to use tariffs to bring in

456
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 7: revenue to the treasury of the United States, and that's

457
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 7: not going to change anything. Just who they're applied to

458
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 7: will be somewhat subjective and how high and how long

459
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 7: they last is completely at his whim.

460
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 12: Well, speaking of his whims, he has decided to post

461
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 12: for a second time on truth Social in just as

462
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 12: many minutes. The President now saying, for anyone who is interested,

463
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 12: I also told Governor Justin Trudeau of Canada that he

464
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 12: largely caused the problems we have with them because of

465
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 12: his weak border policies. He goes on to say that

466
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 12: allowed tremendous amounts of fentanyl and illegal aliens to pour

467
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 12: into the United States. These policies are responsible for the

468
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 12: deaths of many people. Genie, A few things here won

469
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 12: last night and his address to a joint session, he

470
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 12: actually was talking about Joe Biden, his predecessor's border policies,

471
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 12: as being really what is that issue here? Also, when

472
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 12: we're considering fentanyl specifically from Canada, as we've repeatedly reminded

473
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 12: our audience, forty three pounds a fentanyl across the northern

474
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 12: border last year according to US data, is it actually

475
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 12: possible for Canada to get that down to zero? Is

476
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 12: that what it's actually going to take here?

477
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 6: It is a made up issue, as we know when

478
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 6: we look at the numbers of fentanyl coming from Canada,

479
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 6: and you know, Rick was just saying he's using it

480
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 6: as a negotiating tactic. We've heard that he's using it

481
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 6: to get money for the treasury. We've heard that he's

482
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 6: using it because of drugs. We've heard that the problem

483
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 6: is there is no clear reason he is given why

484
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 6: Americans should go through the pain that they will feel

485
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 6: if he keeps this up. As he was talking about

486
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 6: last night, there's going to be a disturbance. How much

487
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 6: of a disturbance, how much pain for how long? He

488
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 6: also noted after that that we can take it? Who

489
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 6: is we the wealthy? Can people on the ground take

490
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 6: it when they go to the grocery store. The truth

491
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 6: is he is acting like a bully. He has been

492
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 6: doing it to Ukraine, He's now doing it to Canada,

493
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 6: to our closest down Mexico. When we were in kindergarten,

494
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 6: we learned that bullies bully because they are weak. He

495
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 6: is making himself look weak, He is making the US

496
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 6: look weak, and he's hurting the market and potentially the

497
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 6: economy long term if he keeps this up. And when

498
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 6: we talk about what he did in the first term

499
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 6: on China, those were targeted tariffs and guess what, they

500
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 6: hurt farmers so much we had to bail them out.

501
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 6: This is a bad policy. We've known that for decades.

502
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 6: We don't know why he is so committed to it,

503
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 6: but he seems to be despite everything. Howard Luttink keeps

504
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 6: going on the air and saying.

505
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, Donald Trump said last night, Rick, there'll be a

506
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: little disturbance, but we're okay with that. It won't be much. Well,

507
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 2: he regrets saying those words. They've got to be saving

508
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: that for a campaign at already.

509
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 6: Yeah.

510
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 7: First of all, he's not running again, so they can

511
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 7: run all the campaign as they want, maybe against Jade Vans,

512
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 7: but you know, he's he's not on a ballot again,

513
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 7: and so I think that gives him a little bit

514
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 7: more flexibility. Secondarily, I'm a little surprised he's actually hedging

515
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 7: a little bit because typically he would just say how

516
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 7: great this was going to be and how richet was

517
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 7: going to make America, and he wouldn't even consider the

518
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 7: negative impact on certain communities, farmers and manufacturers and others.

519
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: Who would be hit by these surpluses.

520
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 7: But remember, too, he looks at the big picture and

521
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 7: he says, look, we've got one hundred billion dollar trade

522
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 7: imbalance with Canada. That's what he's trying to get at.

523
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 7: He wants to have parody, and we'll see when we

524
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 7: get to April. April second, because April first, according to

525
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 7: Donald Trump, he's worried. You might be thinking he's kidding.

526
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 7: And when the reciprocity's hit on top of whatever he's

527
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 7: got outstanding by then on these trade issues, it's going

528
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 7: to be even more significant. So I think we're only

529
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 7: digging into the very first skirmish of this trade war

530
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 7: with Canada and Mexico and other nations around the world.

531
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 12: Well, certainly that is the signal, at least at this point.

532
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 12: He is not suggesting he's taking his foot off the gas,

533
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 12: but perhaps pressing it down harder as we barrel toward April.

534
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 12: In the laundry List Genie of tariffs, he says he

535
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 12: will be implementing next month. To Rick's point, though, on

536
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 12: the idea that Donald Trump the president may be hedging

537
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 12: here around the idea that yes, we could actually see

538
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 12: some economic impact from this, do you think that's reflective

539
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 12: of what he's seeing in the stock market. What economic

540
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 12: data is suggesting is that a hint that he is

541
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 12: paying attention to that.

542
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think there's no doubt he's seen, just as

543
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 6: we all have, what's happened in the markets the last

544
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 6: two days. There was just a study out gen z

545
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 6: Men of fourteen points down in terms of support for

546
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 6: what the president is doing in the last forty three

547
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 6: days on inflation and the cost of living. So he

548
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 6: is seeing all of these signs. The reality is, if

549
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 6: he keeps this up, this is a self inflicted wound.

550
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 6: He may find himself as the first president to deliberately

551
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 6: engineer a severe depression or recession in the United States.

552
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 6: Normally we see these things and they are not self inflicted.

553
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 6: And that is the question. Why is he so committed

554
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 6: to this? What does he want to get out of it?

555
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 6: And again he's not telling American people if we're going

556
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 6: to feel pain, which we will if he keeps this

557
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 6: up to what end?

558
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 5: What is the end of this?

559
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 12: What does he want?

560
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 6: Lowering a fentanyl coming across the border from Canada when

561
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 6: it's already pretty much as low as it can go.

562
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 6: That doesn't add up and it doesn't make any sense.

563
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 6: So if he's just being a bully, that is not enough.

564
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 6: So you know, there's so many questions here, and this

565
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 6: is detrimental to the economy, to the market, and quite frankly,

566
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 6: to the GOP if he keeps it up long term.

567
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 6: Even as Rick says, he's right, he's not running again,

568
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 6: but gosh, I hope he's not just going to destroy

569
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 6: the economy because he doesn't care that he's not running again.

570
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: Well, what do you make of the mixed message between

571
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: the President in the Commerce Secretary of the last twenty

572
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: four hours, Rick Howard Lutnik has done, I believe, four

573
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: broadcast interviews essentially contradicting what Donald Trump is saying about tariffs.

574
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 2: Is this a good cop bad cop thing? In our

575
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: remaining minute? Could be.

576
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 7: They're very close. They talk all the time from what

577
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 7: I hear, and I think that Donald Trump probably is

578
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 7: getting him to lay down a message that either he

579
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 7: can use in his negotiations with the heads of state

580
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 7: that he's dealing with, or even try to keep the

581
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 7: markets tame for the period of time that he's trying

582
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 7: to figure out what he wants to do with these adjustments.

583
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 7: So yeah, I think it's a good tactic. I mean,

584
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 7: everyone's talking about him today and everyone's scratching her head

585
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 7: last night. He's sort of keeping that going today with

586
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 7: these changes. So stand by.

587
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 12: We always are, Rick Davis and Jeanie Shanzy and our

588
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 12: signature political panel. Thank you so much. And on that note,

589
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 12: we are standing by for the beginning of the White

590
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 12: House News conference with the Press Secretary Caroline Levitz lated

591
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,239
Speaker 12: to begin this hour. We'll see if we get some

592
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 12: clarity from her, and we'll have more ahead here on

593
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 12: Bloomberg TV and radio.

594
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch

595
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on

596
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App.

597
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

598
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

599
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: As we cover politics here in the nation's capital. Thanks

600
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: for being with us on the Wednesday edition of Ballots

601
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: of Power, Unpacking Donald Trump's speech from last night, Waiting

602
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: potentially for news on tariffs today, and with regard to that, Kaylie,

603
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: we've been talking so much about Canada and Mexico, China

604
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: also has tariffs that are not getting that much debate.

605
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: Actually retaliatory tariffs have been announced from Beijing, and these

606
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: appear to be here to stay. It's a completely separate

607
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: conversation from the so called drug war that we're hearing

608
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: the administration described with our two neighbors, although.

609
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,479
Speaker 12: They do blame fentanyl for this as well, saying right,

610
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 12: they're not seeing enough progress from China and stemming the

611
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 12: flow of the ingredients to places like Canada and Mexico

612
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 12: where it then crosses the border into the United States.

613
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 12: And yes, twenty percent levies are intact, and there is

614
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 12: no conversation at least at this time from the administration

615
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 12: suggesting there may be a pullback or rethinking of that

616
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 12: as we're hearing today about Mexico.

617
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: And Canada, or rethink when it comes to fentanyl, or

618
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: rethink when it comes to Taiwan, or maybe a rethink

619
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: when it comes to cyber Kaylee. There was a really

620
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: important hearing that took place earlier today on Capitol Hill,

621
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: the China Select Committee, and a hearing that would otherwise

622
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: potentially be drowned out by so many of the other

623
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: headlines that are happening here today and the typhoons. The

624
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: name of the hearing, how to deter aging cyber actions

625
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: and enhance America's lackluster cyber defenses. Salt typhoon, of course,

626
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: what they're referring to here, and what is a concerted

627
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: threat against America?

628
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 12: And we're lucky to be joined now by someone who

629
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 12: is fresh off of testifying before the committee in that hearing.

630
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 12: Laura Glante is with us. She is former director of

631
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 12: the Cyber Threat Intelligence Integration Center and is here with

632
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 12: us in our Washington, d C. Studio. Welcome to Balance

633
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 12: of Power, Laura. It's nice to have you. Obviously you

634
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 12: already have answered a lot of questions today, but we

635
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 12: have a few more for you, specifically when it comes

636
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 12: to countering China specifically, what is the most effective way

637
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 12: to do that and does it actually involve having to

638
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,479
Speaker 12: play the game and hacking them right back? What would

639
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 12: that look like?

640
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 13: You have to use the different lovers of state power, diplomatic,

641
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 13: military sanctions, economic punitive measures in order to get across

642
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 13: China that we are not an acceptable target for hacking.

643
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 13: Our critical infrastructure has been hacked, energy networks, transportation networks,

644
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 13: this is offline. We should not be able to have

645
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 13: American networks at risk. Howd to risk constantly by the

646
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 13: Chinese military.

647
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 2: I want to hear more about our offensive capabilities, the

648
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 2: extent to which you can talk about them. We hear

649
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: about hacking back, We hear about, well, we could go

650
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 2: turn the lights out if we wanted to. What is

651
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,879
Speaker 2: the United States actually capable of doing? Having seen the

652
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: offensive nature of China's posture against.

653
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 13: US, the US has long been postured aggressively to go

654
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 13: after China's networks right where there are hacks against the US.

655
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 13: We need to be able to hold people to account.

656
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 13: Right Cyber Command is one of those key agencies that's

657
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 13: able to do that.

658
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 8: Now.

659
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 13: The question really happens when the question that we continue

660
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 13: to grapple with here is now, how do we show

661
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 13: China that it's unaccept unacceptable to go after critical infrastructure?

662
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 13: And at the same time, we really need to be

663
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 13: able to partner with other countries in the region who

664
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 13: will help hold China to account as well.

665
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 10: Well.

666
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 12: When we're considering partnerships, to what extent is this a

667
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 12: public driven effort versus having to partner with the private sector,

668
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 12: Especially Laura, considering what we're seeing in the federal government

669
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 12: right now with the calling of the workforce in many areas.

670
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 12: I know you have some concerns about the impact that

671
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 12: is going to have on our cyber capabilities in particular.

672
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 12: Can you just speak to that.

673
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, we're really.

674
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 13: Worried that the level of talent that you have in

675
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 13: the federal government, particularly technical talent that's been recruited from

676
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 13: the outside, if those folks leave or if those folks

677
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 13: are pushed out, that's a real hit on America's cybersecurity actions.

678
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 13: And here's why. Our networks in the US are overwhelmingly

679
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 13: private networks, right our water systems, our energy systems, these

680
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 13: are run by private companies or utilities. We need people

681
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 13: who can take that information about what adversaries are doing

682
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 13: and push it out to the frontlines of the folks

683
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 13: who are able to protect those networks.

684
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: China left a lot of breadcrumbs in Salt Typhoon. Do

685
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: we have a handle on the bugs, if you will,

686
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: that are in our system? If they infiltrated utilities, water

687
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: treatment systems, and so forth. What are they doing in

688
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: there and how do we get them out?

689
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 13: Look Salt Typhoon, which back in January a Treasury action

690
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 13: showed that this was the Ministry of State Security, the

691
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 13: Intel guys in China who went and hacked over nine

692
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 13: US telecommunications providers. Right that gives core access to Americans,

693
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 13: user data to Americans information. That's a huge espionage operation

694
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 13: in a big win for China. The other big problem

695
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 13: on this digital breadcrumbs is where the Chinese military has

696
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 13: put prepositioned access sort of open doors sleeper cells into

697
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 13: US infrastructure that could cause chaos and really sew a

698
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 13: level of doubt in people's basic ability to go bend their.

699
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: Vulnerable or can we get these open doors closed?

700
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 8: We're still vulnerable.

701
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 13: I mean, this is one of the really hard challenges

702
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 13: that we have here in the asymmetry of the US

703
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 13: is a really digitally connected place, right, and in some

704
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 13: sense here we've got to really push better cyber defense

705
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 13: and cybersecurity on the water plants, on the energy plants

706
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 13: that are sitting there as the front line between nation

707
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 13: state adversaries and the American people.

708
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 12: Well, and when we're thinking about nation state adversaries, obviously

709
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 12: concerns around that go beyond China, thinking specifically of Russia here,

710
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 12: especially in light of the mixed reporting we have gotten

711
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 12: about the Pentagon and Cybercom potentially ceasing operations when it

712
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 12: comes to Russian cyber activity specifically, how concerned are you

713
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 12: about that? What would that actually do to our ability

714
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 12: to counter threats like this, gather intelligence?

715
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 13: Even Russia is a core adversary in cyberspace for the US.

716
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 13: If we stop planning operations, if we stop any of

717
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 13: the muscle memory that goes into building packages that are

718
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 13: able to target and counter aggressive Russian activity against the US,

719
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 13: that'll really put us behind. And it's that constant ability

720
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 13: to understand how Russian activity goes at US networks that

721
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 13: we've got to keep our eyes on and really keep

722
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 13: people focused on in the government.

723
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 8: If we're going to win this domain.

724
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: Could we wage a cyber war? Do we have the

725
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: tools that would be required to do this? In a

726
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 2: real sense?

727
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 13: The US has the preeminent capability, yes, space.

728
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 2: But Russia we're.

729
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 13: Careful about using it. We follow the rule of law

730
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 13: like that is what sets us apart from authoritarian regimes

731
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 13: in Russia and China, and that's a core difference on

732
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 13: how we're operating in this space, well, at.

733
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 12: Least how we've been operating in the space. Do you

734
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 12: sense that there's going to be a shift in this

735
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 12: kind of cyber policy from this administration, Have they actually

736
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 12: articulated the way in which they're approaching threats like these?

737
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 12: We certainly didn't hear anything about cyber or even artificial

738
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 12: intelligence for that matter, in President Trump's address last night.

739
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 8: I think that's the right question.

740
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 13: One of the huge issues that we've collectively been grappling

741
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 13: with for years now that I'm curious to see how

742
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 13: this administration takes on. Are ransomware actors? These are criminal

743
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 13: groups almost always based in Russia, and they're holding American

744
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 13: hospitals hostage through their network security practices. We've had ambulances

745
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 13: diverted from ransomware attacks. Are these folks going to have

746
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 13: consequences pushed against them in Russia? That's a big question

747
00:39:58,160 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 13: and really critical for Americans.

748
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 2: I don't know about your experience today. You were called

749
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 2: to testify on Capitol Hill in front of a very

750
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 2: important committee that is taking the time to get into this.

751
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: I think we've already established very important story. Do these

752
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: lawmakers know what questions to ask? Are they read in?

753
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 2: Do they understand the threat?

754
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 13: I think the Hill understands that the level of espionage

755
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 13: and attack capabilities that China wages against the US.

756
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 8: Is a really critical issue.

757
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 13: The question is if we're going to really get serious

758
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 13: about heartening our defenses. This is an offense game and

759
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 13: a defense game, right, are we going to put in

760
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 13: place minimums? Are we going to put in place standards

761
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 13: in certain critical industries so that we've got safer services

762
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 13: that defend against the types of cyber attacks that we've

763
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 13: been talking about.

764
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 12: Would that mean, though, providing resources for those in the

765
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 12: private sector to fortify those defenses, because certainly that's not

766
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 12: without cost.

767
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 8: In certain cases. Definitely.

768
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 13: Water sector is a great example here. There's fifty thousand

769
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,439
Speaker 13: different municipalities that have a touch on your water. These

770
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 13: are not well funded cybersecurity programs for the most part. Right,

771
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 13: how do we make sure that we get that funding

772
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 13: but also really that sense of priority that the devices

773
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 13: that are being used to control the water tank in

774
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 13: your county are actually protected.

775
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 2: So what's the follow on here? Is it legislation or

776
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: is this a fact finding mission that leads to more hearings.

777
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 13: I think the question is how do you hold China account?

778
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 13: And that's very much at the forefront of how legislators are.

779
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 8: Thinking right now.

780
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 13: Can we get more serious with non cyber means diplomatic etc.

781
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 13: To be able to hold China to account for what

782
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 13: they've done in cyberspace. And it's that pairing that's really

783
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 13: the question.

784
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 8: At hand right now.

785
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 12: Well, and that obviously goes immediately in my mind to tariffs,

786
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 12: as we're seeing this administration now basically saying that they're

787
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 12: using tariffs as a negotiating tactic to extract behavioral changes

788
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 12: they want to see. Right now, they're talking about a

789
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 12: fentanyl production specifically, but could this also tread potentially into

790
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 12: that realm cyber I.

791
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 13: Think grouping in the volt typhoon, which are the critical

792
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 13: infrastructure accesses that the Chinese have, would be one way

793
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 13: to say, this is the unacceptable behavior that we're seeing

794
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 13: out of China and linking it to something that China's

795
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 13: already starting to feel.

796
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: When you look at this administration versus the Biden administration,

797
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 2: which I believe you work for, when it comes to

798
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 2: the approach to cyber a cohesive policy, is there any

799
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 2: difference between the two.

800
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 13: Look Holding cyber adversaries to account has been the core

801
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 13: and central policy now for multiple administrations. How you do

802
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 13: it is the hard part and the other piece that's

803
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 13: so tough in the US is because cybersecurity has been neglected.

804
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 13: From just a baseline standpoint, it's so many companies in

805
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 13: so many sectors. We are incredibly vulnerable and the more

806
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 13: we throw out there, the more we worry about retaliation

807
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 13: as well. We have to up our own defensive game.

808
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 12: Just finally, Laura, on the subject of ability, have you

809
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 12: seen Zero Day, this new Netflix show? Is that a

810
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 12: real possibility? I mean, this is a funny question because

811
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 12: the show.

812
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: Flakes me out.

813
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 12: But the idea that you can take out basically all

814
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 12: transit infrastructure caused like a blackout nationwide, is that actually

815
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 12: something that, in the worst case scenario could happen to

816
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 12: this country?

817
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 13: All right, I haven't seen a lot of Netflix, but

818
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 13: I will have recently. But I will tell you that

819
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 13: back in twenty seventeen, there was a cyber attack that

820
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 13: the Russians waged on Ukraine that took down the port,

821
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 13: that took down the banks, that took down a wide

822
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 13: variety of society, and really ground everything to a halt.

823
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 8: How'd they get in the TurboTax version in Ukraine?

824
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 13: Was the way that they were able to pass that

825
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 13: piece of malware in So look, widespread effects have happened before,

826
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 13: and we really need to make sure we've got secure systems.

827
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 8: So it doesn't happen again.

828
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 2: It sounds like a yes, kid.

829
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, I'm not sure that.

830
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 2: I thought for sure you were going to tell us

831
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: you were technical consultant on them. No program, Laura Galante,

832
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: what a treat to have you with us. Thank you

833
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 2: for coming to answer our question straight from the hearing room.

834
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: Former director the Cyber Threat Intelligence Integration Center. I'm Joe

835
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 2: Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines in Washington. Glad you're with us

836
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: here on balance of power. We do have a White

837
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: House briefing that's underway. We're keeping an ear on that

838
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 2: for you. For any clues into what happens next with tariffs.

839
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 2: If you're watching truth Social, Apparently a call with Justin

840
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: Trudeau President Trump didn't go all that well, Kayley, it

841
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: looks like these tariffs are here to stay, at least

842
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: for now.

843
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

844
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 12: The Press Secretary just confirming reciprocal tariffs are still set

845
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 12: to go into effect on April second, though she also

846
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 12: did say that President Trump has spoken to the Big

847
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 12: three automakers. We'll have more on this ahead on Bloomberg

848
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 12: TV and radio.

849
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

850
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm e's durn

851
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: on Apple Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App.

852
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

853
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven

854
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: thirty markets.

855
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 2: Kaylee, are feeling a lot more chipper than they were

856
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: around this time yesterday with another deep dive. We had

857
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: a couple of them this week in a row on,

858
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 2: of course, the fit over tariffs against Canada and Mexico,

859
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: a story that has been just updated.

860
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 12: Today, Yeah, confirmed by the White House Press Secretary, who

861
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 12: is briefing the press right now, Caroline Levitt says the

862
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 12: White House will be giving a one month exemption for

863
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 12: cars on those Canadia, Canada, and Mexican tariffs through the

864
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 12: USMCA trade Agreement. This tracks with Bloomberg's earlier reporting that

865
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 12: they were considering this, and the Press secretary also confirmed

866
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 12: that this comes after President Trump spoke with the heads

867
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 12: of the big three US automators.

868
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 2: That's right. We're keeping tabs on a White House news

869
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: briefing that's underway right now, and if they add an

870
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 2: event at the White House. Of course, we'll bring you

871
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 2: there earlier. We're keying off of not only the words

872
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: the Press Secretary, but the President untruth social and of

873
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: course the Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik earlier today here on Bloomberg.

874
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 2: And we want to add the voice of Senator Shelley

875
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: Moore Capito, the Republican from West Virginia, is with us

876
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 2: right now, only hours after leaving the chamber on the

877
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: House side, following the speech last night, with us life

878
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 2: from Capitol Hill. Senator, it's great to see you, welcome back.

879
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: Do you have a sense of Donald Trump's policies when

880
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: it comes to teriffs, because they seem to be changing

881
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 2: moment to moment and it's been giving the market a

882
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 2: bit of aguity here. Do you know what the President

883
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: wants to do with Canada and Mexico specifically?

884
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 9: Well, I think I take my clue off what the

885
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 9: President said last night and has said consistently that he feels,

886
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 9: and I think the American worker feels that we've been

887
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 9: disadvantaged in some ways in terms of tariffs and reciprocal tariffs,

888
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 9: both with Canada and Mexico, and also his great concern

889
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 9: over the flow of fentanyl. Obviously, I live in a

890
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 9: state that has had this has had great impacts on

891
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 9: my state as having some of the highest amount of

892
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 9: fatalities on overdoses from fentanyl, and so I think he's

893
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 9: been very clear on that. I think where he still

894
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 9: leaves himself wiggle room, and I think it's smart we

895
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 9: know he's a negotiator, is to use these tariffs as

896
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 9: leverage point to either get more folks on the border,

897
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 9: more law enforcement to prevent Fentanahl, more fair reciprocal trade

898
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 9: going across the border. And that's why I think you

899
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 9: see the fluidity that you see over the last several

900
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 9: days as to where everything's going to land.

901
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 12: Well, the President last night Senator did say that there

902
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 12: may be some disturbance because of these tariffs, but that

903
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 12: he's okay with that. At least should West Virginians be

904
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 12: okay with any kind of economic disturbance that may result

905
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 12: from these policies. What should they be willing to tolerate?

906
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 9: Well, I think what the President knows and what I

907
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 9: know from the last election is while the border played

908
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 9: an enormous role, there's a debate whether the economy played

909
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 9: a bigger role in what the voters decided that they

910
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 9: wanted inflation was killing regular Americans at the grocery store.

911
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 9: So I think if there's a if there is a

912
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 9: very sensitive spot for every American, it's how much they're

913
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 9: paying for regular goods and service. And so if the

914
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 9: tariffs come in, and when they come in, and they

915
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 9: and we see dramatic raises in whatever energy prices or

916
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 9: whatever it could be food prices, you're going to hear

917
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 9: a pretty loud outcry because it's just going to be

918
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 9: compiling on top of what we already saw during the

919
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 9: Abide administration. And so I think that's what the President

920
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 9: was trying to say, be patient, things will settle back down,

921
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 9: and in the long run, I think he feels that

922
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 9: will bring prices down and our dollars will go a

923
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 9: lot farther. But I think he also left himself some

924
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 9: wiggle room here to make sure that he can make

925
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 9: adjustments in speaking with their governors or even talking to

926
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 9: renegotiating the us mc A. So I think you know,

927
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 9: he asked for patients. I would say patients would be

928
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 9: good in this instance, but our patients are going to

929
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 9: run thin if prices really really become the big pivot

930
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 9: point here rather quickly.

931
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I wonder how much patience you have for

932
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: the DOGE with some of the approaches that they're taking.

933
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: Senator at DOCH team reportedly visiting the US Treasury Department

934
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 2: facility in Parkersburg in your home state, do you worry

935
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 2: about their access and the protection of personal information?

936
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 4: You know?

937
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 9: I think what they are doing is in these cases

938
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 9: they are using the professionals. They're going into the Bureau

939
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 9: Fiscal Service and other things, using the professionals who are

940
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 9: able to have the security clearances to go into the

941
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 9: data to find the data that they're looking for. So

942
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 9: I'm really less worried about the personal private information that

943
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 9: might be corrupted here. I don't think that's the big issue.

944
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 9: I think the issue is in Parkersburg, for instance, we

945
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 9: lost one hundred jobs. That's a big hit to a

946
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 9: small community, and so there were probationary employees. It's yet

947
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 9: to be seen what's going to happen with them. But honestly,

948
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 9: we just had lunch and Elon Musk was there, and

949
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,879
Speaker 9: if you listen to him logically talk about some of

950
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 9: the white waste FRAWD abuse that they've found in systems

951
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 9: such as Social Security, where fifteen people are getting paid

952
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 9: off the same number, or fifteen checks are being sent

953
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 9: off the same number, things that are make total common sense.

954
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 9: This is where I think Doge has been extremely helpful

955
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 9: and will continue to be and even more so Senator.

956
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 12: Finally, as you said on the Appropriations Committee, keeping in mind,

957
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 12: we are now less than ten days out from a

958
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 12: potential government shut down, Where is progress or is there

959
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 12: progress toward a deal to avert that? Will there be

960
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 12: enough Democrats in your chamber to make sure the lights

961
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 12: stay on?

962
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 9: Well, I think what's going to happen here is the

963
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 9: House is going to pass something early in the week,

964
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 9: a continuing resolution. It sounds like to the end of

965
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 9: the year. I think that if the Democrats here in

966
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 9: the Senate do not join us as Republicans to pass

967
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 9: something along that nature, they will be shutting down the government.

968
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 9: And I think we know that's a road to nowhere aservance,

969
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 9: a disservice to every American. We've kind of been down

970
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 9: this road before, doesn't it doesn't achieve anything. So I'm

971
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 9: hoping we can get consensus enough Democrats to work together

972
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 9: so by the end of the week we're up and

973
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 9: running if it's just for a couple.

974
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 8: Of weeks, but I hope it's to the end of

975
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 8: the year.

976
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 9: We should have dealt with this last year, but Senator

977
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 9: Schumer did not even pick up one of our appropriations

978
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,439
Speaker 9: bills that we passed last year.

979
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 12: All Right, Senator, thank you so much for your time

980
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 12: joining us live from Capitol Hill Republican Senator Shelley Moore,

981
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 12: capital of West Virginia, as we deal with some breaking

982
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 12: news on tariffs, the White House Press Secretary Caroline Lovett

983
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 12: has confirmed that the President is going to put into

984
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 12: place a one month pause on auto tarraff, specifically when

985
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 12: it pertains to Canada and Mexico. She also says that

986
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 12: President Trump is open to hearing about additional exemptions, maybe

987
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 12: just adding layers of uncertainty to what is already pretty

988
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 12: uncertain policy, and we want to get more on that

989
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 12: now with Larry Summers, the former US Treasury Secretary and

990
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 12: Harvard University president emeritus, who was here with us on

991
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 12: Bloomberg TV and radio. Mister Secretary, it's great to have you,

992
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 12: and thanks very much for your patients with us as

993
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 12: we work through all of this news. Obviously, and You've

994
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 12: spoken about this at length with our colleague David Weston.

995
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 12: There is economic impact of tariffs to consider, but what

996
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 12: about the potential economic toll when it comes to business

997
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 12: investment and activity on the part of consumers. Of just

998
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 12: a lack of certainty around what these policies actually look like.

999
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 12: Is implementing them and pulling them back just as damaging

1000
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 12: potentially as leaving them intact.

1001
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 4: Look, it's all there. These tariffs are a self inflicted

1002
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 4: supply shock wound higher prices, less competitiveness because businesses are

1003
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 4: having to pay more for all their inputs, and because

1004
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 4: they have to pay higher prices, less purchasing power for consumers,

1005
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 4: which means fewer jobs.

1006
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 2: Down the road.

1007
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 4: So these are like in oil price shock, They're just

1008
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 4: all bad for the economy and they're probably like it,

1009
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 4: and they probably were like an oil price shock of

1010
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 4: forty dollars a barrel in terms of what was being

1011
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 4: done to Mexico and Canada. And now with these changes,

1012
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 4: maybe it's only twenty five or thirty dollars a barrel,

1013
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 4: but it's still clear big and bad. That's why before

1014
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 4: they started saying they were going to take the tariffs

1015
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 4: off almost two trillion dollars of stock market wealth had

1016
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 4: been destroyed in a matter of two days. Now nobody

1017
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 4: knows quite what's going to happen. But why would you

1018
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 4: make an important investment decision amidst all of this uncertainty

1019
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 4: if you were thinking about buying a new car or

1020
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 4: buying a new house. When you wait, and when everybody waits,

1021
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 4: the economy slows down. And that's why the risk of recession,

1022
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 4: which everybody thought was extremely unlikely on January twentieth, is

1023
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 4: now seen by many many people as a real and

1024
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 4: serious risk for some time this year. So I think

1025
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 4: we're doing real damage to the economy. It's not just

1026
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 4: a short run thing. Inflation expectations for the long term,

1027
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 4: for five or ten years, are higher than they've been

1028
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 4: in a very long time, according to the Michigan Survey.

1029
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 4: You know, I heard the President talk about a little disturbance,

1030
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 4: and I heard the Senator talk about that a little

1031
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 4: disturbance that will work through and then it will be good.

1032
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 4: You know what that sounds like. It sounds like transitory inflation.

1033
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 4: Transitory inflation didn't work out very well for the people

1034
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 4: who use that term in twenty twenty one and twenty

1035
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 4: twenty two. It didn't work out very well for the

1036
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 4: Biden administration, it didn't work out very well for the FED.

1037
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 4: And I don't think talking about how inflation is transittory

1038
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 4: is going to work out very well for the Trump

1039
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:16,720
Speaker 4: administration either. So I hope they'll respond to the market

1040
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 4: signals and that they'll find a way to save face

1041
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 4: and they'll back off all of this stuff. That would

1042
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 4: be what would be best for the country. But I

1043
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 4: really do worry about the sense that we're becoming president

1044
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 4: calls this CEO, calls that CEO, that we're becoming a

1045
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 4: bit of a crony capitalism kind of country. When you

1046
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 4: see that the Doze seems to be talking about recontracting

1047
00:55:54,080 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 4: things towards the Starlink company. When you see that law

1048
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 4: firms that represented parties adverse to the president are having

1049
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 4: all their clients penalized across the administration. This is the

1050
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 4: Argentine way, not the American way, and I think there's

1051
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 4: a substantial risk that it will have costs. And what's

1052
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 4: really sad to me about all this is there's a

1053
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:32,919
Speaker 4: lot of truth in things that the President's trying to do.

1054
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 4: There is waste in the way the federal government does technology,

1055
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 4: and it should be fixed by people with more expertise

1056
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 4: than long term government employees. There have been huge problems

1057
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 4: in the way we have protected our borders. We've emphasized

1058
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 4: too much things other than excellence in hiring workers for

1059
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:09,240
Speaker 4: too long. We've had too much regulation that has slowed

1060
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 4: things down too much and made it expensive to build things.

1061
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 4: Sometimes other countries have taken advantage of the United States,

1062
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 4: and so there are impulses here that are right. But

1063
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:36,439
Speaker 4: if you do things too impulsively, too quickly, too carelessly,

1064
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 4: and with too many conflicts of interest where the people

1065
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 4: who are advising you are also the people who are

1066
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 4: profiting from you, then I think you're taking big risks

1067
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,439
Speaker 4: with our economic system.

1068
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: Well, so, mister Secretary, you just said a lot that

1069
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 2: we can unpack your when it comes to tariffs, we

1070
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: read you what will be the economic impact of the

1071
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 2: DOGE because that's bringing an enormous amount of confusion as

1072
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 2: well hesitancy to hire as the headline on the ADP

1073
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 2: Jobs report today, Elon Musk is on Capitol Hill meeting

1074
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 2: with members of the House and Senate right now, presumably

1075
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 2: to connect the dots between what the DOGE is finding

1076
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: in some form of legislation that will be leading its

1077
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 2: way to a budget. But the fog that's coming from

1078
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 2: DOGE with the wall of receipts, some of the claims

1079
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: that have not turned out to be true. The gutting

1080
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 2: of the IRS means what for our economy? I think

1081
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 2: it means.

1082
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 4: More chaos, higher prices, probably next to no progress on

1083
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 4: the government defficit. Look, the irash needs more workers, not fewer.

1084
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 4: In one recent three year period, there were one hundred

1085
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 4: people who had incomes over ten million dollars who didn't

1086
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 4: even get their returns audited in any way when they

1087
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 4: didn't file any return at all. So, yeah, we got

1088
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 4: to work on the IRS. But when we go cutting

1089
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 4: the air traffic safety systems, when we go slashing thousands

1090
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 4: of people whose job it is to enforce the tax

1091
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 4: law and to man the helplines, and we do it

1092
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 4: on an impulse and a few hours study by a

1093
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 4: person with no past experience in government. See, I think

1094
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 4: that's dangerous. And that's the American part of it. For

1095
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 4: the economy, that's probably what's most important to Americans. I

1096
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 4: have to say that when I read that the United

1097
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 4: States has for decades since President Bush. There was certainly

1098
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 4: no fiery liberal put in place program to build goodwill

1099
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 4: for the United States by providing medicines for AIDS and

1100
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 4: other diseases that has saved millions of lives, saved more

1101
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 4: than a million lives per year. When I see that

1102
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 4: medicine from that program has just been ruthlessly cut off

1103
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 4: despite congressional approval, with no protection or careful thought, and

1104
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 4: that people are dying because the United States just decided

1105
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 4: to go do a bunch of experiments like it was

1106
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 4: a business being restructured, that scares me. So I think

1107
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 4: this is going to be pretty serious for our economy.

1108
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 4: And look, President Trump is someone who has in the past,

1109
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 4: at least always when the stock market went up, he

1110
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 4: was always linking it to what he did. And we

1111
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 4: couldn't have had clearer evidence over the last couple of

1112
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 4: days that when he's pursuing the policies about which he's

1113
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 4: in enthusiastic, the market is plummeting, and when he's reversing course,

1114
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 4: the market is rallying. Yeah, and I hope that'll be

1115
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 4: a lesson on many aspects of the broad approach.

1116
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 12: Well, it also is creating an interesting split screen, mister Secretary,

1117
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 12: because as we have the conversation here about the rattling

1118
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 12: of US equity markets, everything you just talked about in

1119
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 12: terms of what potentially could be happening in the US economy,

1120
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 12: you are seeing a flood of capital into Europe, as

1121
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 12: Germany is now signaling they're going to have a whatever

1122
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 12: it takes approach to increase spending. We've seen a flood

1123
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 12: into European equities, obviously massive action in the boon market today.

1124
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 12: Is this the end potentially of US exceptionalism.

1125
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 4: I think it would be premature to say on the

1126
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 4: basis of anything that happened in a few days or

1127
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 4: even a few weeks, that it was the end US exceptionalism.

1128
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 4: But I will say this, I think the broad approach

1129
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 4: we are taking to the rest of the world represents

1130
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 4: the biggest threat to the US dollars role as the

1131
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 4: central currency in the world economy that we've had in

1132
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 4: the last five decades. And if I were still sitting

1133
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 4: at the Treasury Department, I would be terrified about the

1134
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 4: consequences of the kind of rhetoric that the President is

1135
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 4: engaging in vis a vis other countries. I would be

1136
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 4: alarmed by the way in which China and Europe were

1137
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 4: a trap, being magnets for capital as people rushed out

1138
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 4: of dollars, were increasingly a lot with each other because

1139
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 4: they had both been alienated from us. And knowing that

1140
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 4: I was going to have trillions and trillions of dollars

1141
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 4: that I had to place, and that I was part

1142
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 4: of an administration that was going to raise substantially the

1143
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 4: scale of the national debt with these new ideas like

1144
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 4: not taxing overtime or not taxing tips, and extending the

1145
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 4: tax cuts for businesses and businesses in the wealthy in

1146
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 4: a massive way, so that we were looking at budget

1147
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 4: deficits that could easily exceed two trillion dollars a year.

1148
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 2: I had to plant.

1149
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 4: I had to place all that debt. When the President

1150
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 4: was calling out and yelling and complaining about all the

1151
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 4: countries that were traditionally the biggest buyers of the debt,

1152
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 4: and the President was saying that anything was legal as

1153
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 4: long as it was working for the survival of the

1154
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 4: country and he wanted to do it, I'd be hugely

1155
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 4: alarmed about the role of the dollar in our system,

1156
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 4: and I'd be doing everything I could to try to

1157
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 4: persuade the president to change course. In fairness, I wouldn't

1158
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 4: be doing it publicly. I'd be doing it behind closed doors.

1159
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 4: But we have a Treasury Secretary whose principal comment on

1160
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 4: the President has been to suggest that he should win

1161
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 4: a Nobel prize for his appeasement to President Putin. So

1162
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 4: I think we have a really serious set of issues

1163
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 4: that may loom. There's time to change there's time to

1164
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 4: change course. There's time to limit eight these kinds of tariffs.

1165
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 4: There's time to try to draw on the expertise in

1166
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 4: the Doge in more responsible ways. And if that happens,

1167
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 4: I think things could work out well. But gosh, we're

1168
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 4: looking at some risks and uncertainties of a kind we

1169
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 4: haven't seen before. You know, Wall Street, as you know

1170
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 4: better than I because you report on it all the time.

1171
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 4: Has this thing the VICS so called fear gauge. It

1172
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 4: went up by almost fifty percent in a matter of

1173
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:47,479
Speaker 4: a couple of days because of the things that were

1174
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 4: being said. So I just hope that we can all

1175
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 4: take a deep breath, that we can recognize that there

1176
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 4: are plenty of real problems that need to be addreshed,

1177
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 4: and that the President in his campaign identified some important

1178
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 4: directions in which our country and its economy could be

1179
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 4: made better. But God, the way we're going about it

1180
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 4: is something that seems very scary to me.

1181
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 2: That fix is down today but still holding above twenty two. Larry,

1182
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 2: it's really great to have you with us here on

1183
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 2: Balance of Power. We do appreciate the conversation the former

1184
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 2: US Treasury Secretary of Larry Summers, of course, Harvard University

1185
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 2: President emeritus, with his insights on tariffs, tax cuts, them

1186
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 2: a lot more today in a live conversation on Bloomberg

1187
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: TV and radio. Thanks for listening to the Balance of

1188
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 2: Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already,

1189
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 2: at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and

1190
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 2: you can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC

1191
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 2: at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.