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Speaker 1: Cools Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to cool people who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're a weekly reminder that we all like animals, just

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Speaker 2: to different degrees. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and with

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Speaker 2: me today is my guest Shulely Hi. How are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm doing it all right. I'm really happy to be here,

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Speaker 3: even though there is some bad stuff in this.

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Speaker 2: That's true, and there's gonna be more bad stuff in

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Speaker 2: this and it's gonna be fun. Our producer Sophie Hi.

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Speaker 2: Sophie Hi, And this is part two of a two

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Speaker 2: parter that probably should have been like an eight part

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Speaker 2: This is the kind of thing that, honestly, like one

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Speaker 2: day I'm just gonna switch to a true crime format

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Speaker 2: and shack and animal rights stuff at the turn of

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Speaker 2: the century easily a whole season of all kinds of

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Speaker 2: ins and outs of things. But that's not what I'm

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Speaker 2: doing here. It's a two parter where I'm part two.

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Speaker 2: So where we last left our plucky heroes and anti

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Speaker 2: heroes in various combinations, they had just shut down a

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Speaker 2: dog breeding facility that mistreated dogs and sold them to

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Speaker 2: an animal rights place that had not an animal rights

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Speaker 2: place at animal testing place that has had a lot

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Speaker 2: of evidence against it being very bad to animals. And

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Speaker 2: then they went and did a very similar thing to

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Speaker 2: a cat. And they did that partly by doing something

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Speaker 2: that I don't think is great. And I was thinking

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Speaker 2: about this while we were on break, I mean while

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Speaker 2: two days passed, because it's obviously two days later. Here

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Speaker 2: we are on Wednesday. You're listening to this live, no

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Speaker 2: matter what time you're listening to this, no matter what year.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about this. Our coworker Robert Evans talks

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Speaker 2: about war a lot and talks about like, look, even

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Speaker 2: in a war where like one side's the good side,

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Speaker 2: they're going to do war crimes, right, Like people just

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Speaker 2: do that and that's not good, But that doesn't invalidate

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Speaker 2: the entirety of that side. And I've been thinking about

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Speaker 2: it from that point of view. There are things that

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Speaker 2: I'm like, nah, I probably shouldn't have bombed that building.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not talking about the animal rights people now.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about the like, you know, war or whatever, right,

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Speaker 2: and you know, you can't actually control every actor within

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Speaker 2: a given thing. But our campaigners moved on and they

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Speaker 2: started a group called Stop Hunting tin Animal Cruelty which

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Speaker 2: is not stop hunting tin, animal cruelty, but hunting tin.

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Speaker 3: That's how you know it's British.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh fuck. I actually left out several place names

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Speaker 2: where I was like, oh, I say the place name

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Speaker 2: of this, and I was like, nah, man, it's some

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Speaker 2: British name. It's going to be like opposite land.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not telling the truth about the d

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Speaker 3: means it's.

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Speaker 2: No, but it could be right again because they're the professor.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to listen to you.

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Speaker 3: It's the stupidity that makes his British.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, So they decided to stop the place

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Speaker 2: that actually does the vivisection. Maybe they originally started stop

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Speaker 2: Hunting Tin and then they were like.

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Speaker 3: Oh shit, get the spell check out here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And the first thing they did was get

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Speaker 2: a list of shareholders, and they found out that their

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Speaker 2: very own Labor Party held seventy thousand shares because the

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Speaker 2: Labor Party that just that last year, maybe two years earlier,

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Speaker 2: I can't remember, had just taken a large donation from

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Speaker 2: the animal testing lobby. And the first thing that Shaq

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Speaker 2: did was publicize this fact, and as soon as they did,

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Speaker 2: the Labor Party sold their shares so they're coming out

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Speaker 2: with a strong win right away, and they got company

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Speaker 2: after company to sell their shares pretty quickly with just

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Speaker 2: a few phone calls. I believe these phone calls were

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Speaker 2: a criminal and threatening variety.

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Speaker 3: If you get the party to be like caught with

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Speaker 3: their pants down. I mean, I don't know, but I

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Speaker 3: was thinking it would be kind of funny if like

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Speaker 3: the Democratic Party is like, oh, yeah, they have all

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Speaker 3: these shares in the animal testing. They're using animal focus

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Speaker 3: groups to see if their ideas go and they're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: the animals they seem to like this bad idea that

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Speaker 3: we have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Oh god.

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Speaker 3: I would say that is cruelty to animals if you

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Speaker 3: had to sit.

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Speaker 2: With like send them with Democratic donor messages. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In addition to a couple of polite and impolite phone calls,

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Speaker 2: there was also a bunch of bomb threats and jammed

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Speaker 2: phone lines and such. So they would like call a

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Speaker 2: place and be like, there's a bomb in your building

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Speaker 2: and they'd have to evacuate the building. I am not

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Speaker 2: I am describing a thing of history and a related

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Speaker 2: group with the name the British Union for the Abolition

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Speaker 2: of vivisection reform group, which took me like eight readings

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Speaker 2: to figure out what they're saying. I think they're saying,

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Speaker 2: we're for the abolition of vivisection reform. It's like being like,

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Speaker 2: we're the group that is against you know, in animal

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Speaker 2: rights stuff, there's a difference between animal welfare and animal

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Speaker 2: rights right or in then animal liberation beyond that. But

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Speaker 2: animal welfare is like, let's make animals to be better

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Speaker 2: and take care of them a little better, and animal

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Speaker 2: rights is like, no, animals are people too right, and

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Speaker 2: so like, these are people being like our thing, as

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Speaker 2: it were, against the vivisection reformists. So they're bad, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: these are the further radical. These are oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: yeah know. So these are the people who are like,

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Speaker 2: we want the abolition of vivisection, and therefore we want

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Speaker 2: the abolition of vivisection reform, no half measures, yeah exactly.

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Speaker 2: But they do this interesting campaign. They send out seventeen

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Speaker 2: hundred letters to individual shareholders, people who just have like

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Speaker 2: five stocks. I don't know what you call that, shares.

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Speaker 2: I send the name shareholder and they send out these

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Speaker 2: letters and they basically are like, look, hey, I hate

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Speaker 2: to be a bother. I actually suspect they did do

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Speaker 2: it all British like this, and they were like, look,

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Speaker 2: I hate to be a bother about this, but you

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Speaker 2: have some shares and some people who punch puppies in

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Speaker 2: the face, and so we would like that to change.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that's going to happen is that we're

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Speaker 2: going to pick some people randomly in a week, and

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Speaker 2: we're going to pick at your house. If you don't

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Speaker 2: sell within a week, it'll be picked at random. And

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Speaker 2: they got a bunch of supportive letters back from people

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Speaker 2: who were like, I actually had no idea of supporting

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Speaker 2: that stuff. I had no idea. I sold my shares

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Speaker 2: and a couple of people sent them donations.

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Speaker 3: Huh.

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Speaker 2: But I'm also reading an activist account of this. I

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Speaker 2: suspect there was a lot of like fuck you's in

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Speaker 2: there too.

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Speaker 3: But you know, this is okay. This is the thing

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Speaker 3: I think about a lot because during the encampments, you know,

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Speaker 3: in solidarity with Gaza, the main demand was divestment, which

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Speaker 3: it made sense to me as a reason to be there,

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Speaker 3: and it's connected to the BDS movement that the Palestinians

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Speaker 3: kind of wanted people to take part in. Yeah, but

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Speaker 3: if you think about the way the stock market works,

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Speaker 3: you can't just like easily divest from Israel, for example,

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Speaker 3: because everything's like intertwined and it's not like they're just like, oh,

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Speaker 3: we have ten thousand Israel stuff likes or whatever, so

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Speaker 3: they can be like, oh, yeah, we divested, but they

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Speaker 3: just like move the shit around and it looks a

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Speaker 3: little bit better. So it makes sense to me that

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Speaker 3: these people are like, oh, I didn't fucking know, Like

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I tell you, like even your pension

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Speaker 3: could be fucking invested in it, right.

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Speaker 2: And also they're not being like divest in Israel because

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Speaker 2: people would be like, why are you just focused on

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Speaker 2: huntings and life sciences? And they're like, because you have

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Speaker 2: to pick. In order to accomplish anything in this world.

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Speaker 2: You have to pick a thing and then do it.

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Speaker 2: You can't pick destroy fascism. You have to pick do

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Speaker 2: these things that better position people in general to destroy fascism.

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Speaker 2: I got to change my plan then, yeah, no, Actually

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Speaker 2: I've learned this the hard way, many sleepless nights being like,

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Speaker 2: all right, how am I personally going to stop fascism?

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Speaker 2: And then you lay there and you like try and

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Speaker 2: math it out and you're like, no, that won't work. No,

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Speaker 2: that won't work, and you're like, oh the fuck. So

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Speaker 2: you actually have to just pick something and start. And

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Speaker 2: they picked hunting in Life Sciences. And so by saying like, no,

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Speaker 2: you have to sell this company, we're going to wreck

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Speaker 2: this company and then we're going to go on to

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Speaker 2: the next one after that spoiler, although they have already

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Speaker 2: wrecked several companies, they're not going to wreck this one.

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Speaker 3: I will just go on record though to say yet,

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Speaker 3: like I was critiquing the divestment plant, but like also

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Speaker 3: like making people say that they will take out their

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Speaker 3: shares is something. It's not nothing.

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Speaker 2: Oh totally no. I think that that is a thing

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Speaker 2: where you're like, hey, you have to drop the following

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Speaker 2: thing and we are going to camp on your lawn

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Speaker 2: until you do it. That is the shock model in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways. Right. And so these people they

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Speaker 2: send out their seventeen hundred letters and they pick a

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Speaker 2: person at random and it's a seventy year old pensioner

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Speaker 2: and they're like, nah, fuck, well, we said we pick

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Speaker 2: a random So they wrote them a letter and they're like, hey,

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Speaker 2: you lost the lottery. We're come into your house to

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Speaker 2: pick it. It's going to be peaceful, it's going to

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Speaker 2: last twelve hours. And the guy's like all right. And

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Speaker 2: the showed up and we're like, ah, tell us about

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Speaker 2: these terrible people, and he's like, look, it's annoying. They

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Speaker 2: have a point and they're entitled to their point of view.

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Speaker 3: He served them tea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. One of the letter writers was charged with

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Speaker 2: a thousand counts of blackmail for this project, but oddly

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Speaker 2: it wasn't illegal, so the prosecution it never went anywhere.

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Speaker 2: It's never taken a court. They had Actually, I think

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Speaker 2: they ran all the shit past whatever they call lawyers,

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Speaker 2: barristers or whatever whatever do they call lawyer. I have

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Speaker 2: like one thing I can do, and it's make fun

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Speaker 2: of British people, and it makes no sense because it's

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Speaker 2: actually horizontal. I'm an American.

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Speaker 1: Whenever I see their legal system on like a television

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Speaker 1: show or in a documentary, I'm like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, take off that wig.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's weird.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they've got intense ass libel laws though over there.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, No, I get very America about the first

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Speaker 2: two amendments. I like, I mean, I like kind of

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Speaker 2: all of our amendments except the one that we got

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Speaker 2: rid of about no drinking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I hear you on that. Two things

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Speaker 1: what I think of, like American pride is that and

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Speaker 1: then like air conditioning.

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Speaker 2: Fuck the world, yeah a little bit.

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Speaker 3: No, it's great when you live in a country where

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Speaker 3: like all these old people have to die because of

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Speaker 3: the heat wave and no one knows what to like

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Speaker 3: France or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, and with a free speech thing, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: it would be so much harder to be a journalist

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Speaker 2: in the UK. Yeah doing this show. I would stick

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Speaker 2: to dead people if I did this show in the UK.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why they just put tits on page three.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. They're like, look, no free space, which actually,

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're not allowed boobies on our page three,

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Speaker 2: So there you go. I actually don't feel strongly about

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Speaker 2: this at all. So meanwhile, Shack, they're doing this all

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Speaker 2: the time. They have like five hundred person strong protests

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Speaker 2: outside of HLS, and these are spicy. People are tearing

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Speaker 2: down fences, they're throwing rocks and stuff like that. Whenever

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Speaker 2: I read about these old protests, I'm like, God, people

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Speaker 2: used to do wild shit. And get a couple months

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Speaker 2: in jail, and they would rescue dogs from the facility

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Speaker 2: on a somewhat regular basis, and they would set up tripods,

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Speaker 2: which I've never seen an activist tripod. It's like three poles.

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Speaker 2: They're like ten thirty feet tall and you sit at

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Speaker 2: the top of them. It's like tree sitting, but you

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Speaker 2: can do it anywhere. It blocks the road. Unfortunately, at

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Speaker 2: one point, when they set up one of these tripods,

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Speaker 2: a cop walked up and was like, you're in my

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Speaker 2: way and pulled the leg out of the tripod and

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Speaker 2: dropped the woman about twenty feet onto the ground. She

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Speaker 2: broke her legs, she smashed up her face, she had

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Speaker 2: to have major reconstructive surgery, and she almost died for

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Speaker 2: an infection in her broken leg. So that is whenever

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Speaker 2: I'm like oh, simpler times, I'm like, again, no, these

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Speaker 2: people were actually risking real things by doing this.

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Speaker 3: And the cop was served justice, right.

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Speaker 2: You know what's funny is he actually was arrested, which

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Speaker 2: I was like, holy shit, and then he was found

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Speaker 2: not guilty.

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Speaker 3: I think people today look at the way that the

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Speaker 3: stakes were like lower in terms of the punishment that

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Speaker 3: you were facing and then be like, why can't we

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Speaker 3: just do this today without fucking thinking about you know,

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Speaker 3: the intense security state and the violence that we're subjected to.

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Speaker 2: Right, don't set things on fire in America, like unless

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Speaker 2: you would go in like not just double or nothing,

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Speaker 2: but like order of magnitude or nothing is stay away

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Speaker 2: from fire. When they're like, oh, they just set the

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Speaker 2: fire on fence that whatever. Get the nounce correct in

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Speaker 2: that sense, And that's what I've meant to say, like,

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Speaker 2: don't do that here. Yeah, I try not to tell

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Speaker 2: people what to do, but that's one that I stick to,

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Speaker 2: is that that's more serious than you think it is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they can do it in France, flaming barricades, you

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Speaker 3: know whatever, and they get like, you know, they don't

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Speaker 3: get forty years in prison, or maybe they do. I

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Speaker 3: don't know. Things change, that is.

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Speaker 2: I mean, then again, it's like, you know, it's not

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Speaker 2: that they're not risking things in France, it's just different.

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Speaker 2: I remember talking to someone who I've probably said this

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Speaker 2: before on the show, like when I first went to

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Speaker 2: the Netherlands, I went to a noise demo for someone

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Speaker 2: who was in prison and for throwing them was convicted

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Speaker 2: of throwing a molotov at a cop. She didn't actually

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Speaker 2: do it, she just had one on her person when

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Speaker 2: she was arrested. But she was convicted of doing it

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Speaker 2: and she served i want to say, six months of

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Speaker 2: or nine month sentence. Yeah, and like in a minimum

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Speaker 2: security prison where she had a typewriter and a guitar

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Speaker 2: and got zines and people went outside and had noise

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Speaker 2: demos for her all the time. It's just different.

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Speaker 3: And they don't even know what a molotav is here,

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Speaker 3: but they'll charge you for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So they also and these are things that

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Speaker 2: you can get real time for in England at this time,

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Speaker 2: they set four staff members cars on fire, and it's

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Speaker 2: just we're talking about all the things that they did

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Speaker 2: that didn't go out great. They set those cars on

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Speaker 2: fire and I believe driveways in people's houses and the

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Speaker 2: fires spread to nearby houses where children were sleeping. No

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Speaker 2: one was hurt, and Shack came out and was like, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: that wasn't us. It probably wasn't even animal people, but

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Speaker 2: like it was just.

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Speaker 3: Your normal car fire that happens randomly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of the people that we've been saying, people should

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Speaker 2: go fuck these people.

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Speaker 3: Up this is I don't know if you're going to

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Speaker 3: talk about this later, but you know, as we're getting

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Speaker 3: into this, we're talking about like the kind of complexity

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Speaker 3: and the nuance of it. It's like you go down

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Speaker 3: this line, right, like you go after the facility, and

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Speaker 3: then you go after maybe the owners of the facility.

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Speaker 3: But then when you start, like you know, going down

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Speaker 3: the hierarchy, mean like the worker and then the like

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Speaker 3: the wife of the like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the wife of the worker of the janitorial company

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Speaker 2: that works for the place that gives them their.

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Speaker 3: Tax forms, right, and then their neighbors. Yeah, Like that's

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Speaker 3: where it starts to kind of blur, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I actually think this brings up one of my

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Speaker 2: major tactical issues because this is a lot of the

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Speaker 2: scene as tactical innovation. I think it is a social

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Speaker 2: problem to create a system by which we allow this

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Speaker 2: like transference of right. And we see this destroying our

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Speaker 2: cultures all the time. We're like, Oh, your friends with

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Speaker 2: so and so, don't you know they did something bad?

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Speaker 2: Oh your friends with so and so, they're still friends

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Speaker 2: with so and so. Don't you know that that person

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Speaker 2: is still friends with so and so and friends with

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Speaker 2: so and so who did something bad. You have to

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Speaker 2: pick in your head the number of steps removed that

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Speaker 2: you believe is appropriate, and then stick to it. You

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Speaker 2: can be mad at the person who did the bad thing.

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Speaker 2: You can be mad at the people who are still

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Speaker 2: friends with the person who did the bad thing. But

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Speaker 2: maybe you shouldn't be mad at the people who are

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Speaker 2: still friends with the person who's still friends with the

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Speaker 2: person who's still friends with the person who did the

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Speaker 2: bad thing. You have to pick in your head and

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Speaker 2: stick to it.

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Speaker 3: We also it's like just you don't be friends with

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Speaker 3: the I don't know exactly. There are situations that call

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Speaker 3: for for, you know, more intense shit, but like it's like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Like a lot of this stuff is

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Speaker 3: like I don't like that person, and no one should

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Speaker 3: like people do shitty things. But also, I mean tactically,

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Speaker 3: I do think that there's something there. It's just they're

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Speaker 3: picking the wrong targets. Like in New York during the

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Speaker 3: beginning of the Gaza stuff, there was all these like huge,

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Speaker 3: you know, civil disobedient type protests, which I think very

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Speaker 3: quickly lost their effectiveness. But you know, going to Chuck

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Speaker 3: Schumer's house and fucking like screaming and yelling outside his house.

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Speaker 3: That's cool, that's a good thing to do, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And judges and like Supreme Court judge like shit like that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you can get real, real fucked up for

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Speaker 3: going to protest the Supreme Court judge. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Doing it legally in ways that are legally acceptable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's like different than being like, you know,

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Speaker 3: the the janitor's wife and their neighbors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And I actually think that some of the

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Speaker 2: people who came through this think about these same things.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to read some quotes at the end, but

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Speaker 2: I think that, you know, like, not everyone is part

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Speaker 2: of this, is like, oh yeah, this is totally Everything

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Speaker 2: that we're doing is totally above board. And within months,

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Speaker 2: as I understand it, the campaign drove HLS into insolvency

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Speaker 2: as secondary targets withdrew their support from the group in

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Speaker 2: response to pressure, like for example, you know, okay, the

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Speaker 2: Bank of Scotland had been letting HLS be twenty four

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Speaker 2: million pounds in overdraft, which I suspect they wouldn't let

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Speaker 2: me do even if I punched dogs. And so people

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Speaker 2: showed up in a public square and burned a copy

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Speaker 2: of the bank's policy of ethics as a protest, and

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Speaker 2: the bank was like, oh, yeah, I know, you're right.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's not for us, Maybe we shouldn't support this.

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Speaker 2: The phrase puppy killer was used a lot, and HLS

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Speaker 2: killed a lot of puppies, so it was an appropriate

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Speaker 2: thing to yell at people. Hundreds of animals died in

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Speaker 2: the facility every day, and Shack was fond of the

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Speaker 2: chant puppy killer. Leave town. This got under HLS's skin

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Speaker 2: and there was lawsuit after lawsuit basically trying to get

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Speaker 2: them to specifically stop like calling them puppy killers.

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Speaker 3: Bibel libel suits, British libel suit.

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Speaker 2: I know. But also if you're being bullied, you can say,

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Speaker 2: don't do the one thing that makes me unhappy. So

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Speaker 2: the more they said stop calling us that that hurts

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Speaker 2: our feelings, the more people called them puppy killers. There

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Speaker 2: was threatening phone calls. There was like classic harassment techniques

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Speaker 2: at the time, like you buy someone embarrassing shit like

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Speaker 2: porn or sex toys and have it mailed to their

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Speaker 2: like houses or their place of work.

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Speaker 3: Forty pizzas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure there was like black faxes where you

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Speaker 2: fax someone just a black piece of paper on repeat,

377
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Speaker 2: like sometimes you even like set it up so it's

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Speaker 2: just a black piece of paper like taped on a

379
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Speaker 2: loop and so it just runs through and like spends

380
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Speaker 2: all their toner.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolute tactic.

382
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know right. I've had to send faxes occasionally

383
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Speaker 2: in my life and it's really funny to me.

384
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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's still a few places that they're like fax us. Yeah,

385
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Speaker 3: I don't have a fucking tax machine.

386
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I'm a millennial, which means I am fucking

387
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Speaker 2: middle aged. I am too young to have a fucking

388
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Speaker 2: fax machine. And they would go and crash parties they

389
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Speaker 2: would be at, and not just HLS, but people who

390
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Speaker 2: like sold them soda for their cafeterias and shit, And

391
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,120
Speaker 2: people would show up at the houses of executives, ring

392
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Speaker 2: the door and then pepper spray them in their face

393
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Speaker 2: and then break out their windows and shit. And in

394
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Speaker 2: early two thousand and one, the COO of HLS, and

395
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Speaker 2: to be fair, the most violent thing that happened happened

396
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Speaker 2: specifically their COO was beaten with a pickaxe handle and hospitalized.

397
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Speaker 3: Whoa was the pickaxe part? The axe parts so attached?

398
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Speaker 2: No, no, so some reports a baseball bat and some

399
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 2: say pickaxe handle. It's like kind of a thing, like

400
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Speaker 2: like I had a hobo friend who you know too,

401
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,680
Speaker 2: but I'm not going to say their name on air

402
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,919
Speaker 2: because they don't like such things. Who when they were

403
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Speaker 2: hopping trains, they would carry around an axe handle, right,

404
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 2: just like a two handed axe handle, because you're kind

405
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,679
Speaker 2: of allowed to carry it kind of and you're going

406
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 2: to hit people with it if they fuck with you.

407
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,400
Speaker 2: And so it's just a club. It's just a way

408
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 2: of having a club, you know. And City Bank cut

409
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 2: ties not only with HLS, but anyone who held shares

410
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 2: in HLS. But do you know who would never give

411
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 2: in to an activist campaign? Who would stand there ground

412
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 2: nobly or in nobly? They probably give it actives campaigns

413
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 2: all the time. It's actually a very effective tactic. But

414
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Speaker 2: our sponsors are either upstanding or not. We promise you that,

415
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 2: and we're back. When they got City Bank to cut

416
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,479
Speaker 2: ties with HLS, one of the Shack campaigners, a guy

417
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 2: named Jay Johnson, wrote about it, quote, when Citybank cave

418
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,720
Speaker 2: to activist pressure, it was hard not to have it

419
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 2: go to your head. Here was the biggest corporation in

420
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Speaker 2: the world and they just cave to the demands of

421
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Speaker 2: a bunch of punks fighting for animal liberation. It was

422
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Speaker 2: incredibly empowering.

423
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's like unlikely now. I mean during

424
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Speaker 3: the George Floyd uprisings, we saw companies sort of try

425
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,199
Speaker 3: to make noises towards you know, Black Lives Matter, but

426
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 3: that went away very quickly. Yeah, and it wasn't material

427
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,439
Speaker 3: in this way at all, Like they didn't actually do anything.

428
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 3: They just like had an advertisement. Yeah, like Netflix had

429
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Speaker 3: a Black Voices series or whatever.

430
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Brooklyn nine to nine. They were like, we don't

431
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 2: want to make copaganda anymore.

432
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I remember that.

433
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 2: But that's not a corporation. That's a show, you know,

434
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 2: as like artists, as creators. I think on some level,

435
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 2: activists have been chasing this high ever since this high

436
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 2: of like we got City Bank to defund Like the

437
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 2: number of times I've been part of campaigns, like environmental

438
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: campaigns where people are like, and we're going to get

439
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 2: Bank of America to divest from mountaintop removal. I'm like,

440
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 2: all right for me once, shame on you. And I'm

441
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 2: not saying it's not worth doing, but it's kind of

442
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 2: like it's like boycott campaigns. Boycott campaigns work sometimes and

443
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: so we always rush to try and do them, and

444
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 2: most of the time they don't work. But that doesn't

445
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: actually mean that it's a bad tactic if it doesn't

446
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 2: work all the time, because nothing works all the time,

447
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: and making social change is incredibly hard, or we would

448
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: all would have done it by now.

449
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 3: But like the thing is right, like boycotts would go

450
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 3: to and protests that go to but like if you're

451
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 3: gonna just take the lesson from this that like, oh

452
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: you can get city ing to you know, cut ties.

453
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 3: The thing is that they like surrounded these people like

454
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 3: with a whole world of fucking protests and attack and

455
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 3: like tighten a noose on them. It wasn't just like

456
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 3: you just go and chant and or like whatever, you

457
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 3: sit in your tripod and then they listen to you.

458
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,239
Speaker 3: And I don't think people are willing to actually go

459
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 3: that distance for you know, good or bad.

460
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 2: And partly because literally the stakes have changed, like we

461
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 2: are going to talk about later in this episode about

462
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 2: how like all of this is now terrorism. They decided

463
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: in two thousand and five in the US two thousand

464
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: and six that this is now terrorists them, right, and

465
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 2: that's the go to that they've been using. Because also

466
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: September eleventh happens during all of this. There's one thing

467
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: I read that was like the public's appetite for using

468
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 2: car bombs to change people's political minds changed dramatically in

469
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: the wake of September eleventh, And as someone who, like

470
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 2: most of my adult life has been in the wake

471
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: of September eleventh, I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

472
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: I like take it for granted that people don't approve

473
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 2: of that, you know, but people are coming up during

474
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 2: a time where you're like, ah, it's all kind of

475
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 2: fun and games.

476
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 3: I remember actually like being in London and being like,

477
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 3: why are there no trash cans anywhere? And I was like, oh, yeah,

478
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 3: because people fucking put bombs in the trash can. Yeah

479
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 3: rubbish bin sorry, oh.

480
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, rubbish tins. And the government was desperate to stop shack.

481
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 2: If HLS left England, major pharmaceutical companies might follow, and

482
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: the cops actually tried to infiltrate and largely failed. I

483
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 2: think they might have had more success later, but at

484
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: least in his early days they didn't, and the UK

485
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 2: failed at keeping HLS on their island. Unable to find

486
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 2: financing in the UK, HLS was bailed out by an

487
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 2: Arkansas investment group called Stevens Group, run by a billionaire

488
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: named Stevens.

489
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that was so fun.

490
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just the guys like, I'm a billionaire. My

491
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 2: group is called my group.

492
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: Me by me for me, me me, me, me, me

493
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: on me.

494
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: Sorry cracked me up when you read that.

495
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 3: Also, I would just like to remark that this is

496
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 3: as righteous as the Pilgrims, you know, leaving the UK

497
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: for their religious persecution.

498
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, were they like, weren't actually being persecuted at all.

499
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: We can't tell anyone to stop having Christmas.

500
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, these goddamn plays, so many fucking plays.

501
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: And so HLS did actually move to the US, but

502
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: they legally moved to the US, and they kept most

503
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: of their employees in the UK, but they legally moved

504
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: to Maryland. And so Shack found out who bailed them

505
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 2: out and was like, all right, we're going to fuck

506
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: with Steven's group now. And okay, here's where I say

507
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: that I don't have every piece of information about this

508
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: group because I had to only write two parts. There's

509
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: so many ins and outs. There's so many times like

510
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: Steven's Groups drops them and then the other people are

511
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 2: dropping them, and other people only fake drop them, Like

512
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 2: the Bank of Scotland was like, oh, you burn a thing,

513
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: We're totally gonna drop them, but they're like, ah, just kidding.

514
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 2: We were like secretly not dropping them, and like it

515
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: just goes back forth a lot, And I'm sure the

516
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 2: ins and outs are interesting, but they're not what we're

517
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: focusing on today. Stevens Group was tied in with a

518
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: bunch of presidents. Its founder helped the Bushes. Hillary Clinton

519
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: served as their lawyer. They're from Little Rock, Arkansas, so

520
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: they're friends with Bill. But Shack kept meeting with Victories

521
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 2: for a long time. They get a Boston bank to

522
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 2: drop one point five percent of the company's stock. They

523
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: got Merrill Lynch to drop eight million shares. Why are

524
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: those two numbers in different numbers? I don't know how

525
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: many eight million shares is? Because why did the book

526
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: I read give me two different ones? I don't know.

527
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 2: I'm annoyed at the I mean whatever, I'm not gonna okay.

528
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 3: Maybe it's like in England, Yeah it's percentages.

529
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because it's just all fake. Yeah, totally honestly,

530
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 2: because I read eight million shares and I'm like, is

531
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: that a meaningful number? Is that a lot of shares?

532
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: Is that a little shares? I can't imagine having eight

533
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 2: million shares in anything, so I imagine it's all of

534
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: the shares plus four, but it's not. I've never really

535
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 2: read about a direct action pressure campaign at the scale before,

536
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: besides the ones that are kind of tied into wars,

537
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: like national liberation movements or the fight and apartheid in

538
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 2: South Africa or something like this. Of like, there's like

539
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: activists in Germany threatening the German companies that are doing this,

540
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: and this is the kind of thing that people do

541
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: to try to confront war machines. Now, right, you have

542
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 2: these like international grassroots leaderless we have the following goal,

543
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: which is to get people to stop sending weapons to Israel,

544
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 2: and so people are going fuck up the plane that's

545
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: going to bring the weapons through Ireland or the weapons

546
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: manufacture itself or whatever it is, you know. But Shack

547
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: started to run into real problems as the campaign ground

548
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: on and HLS kept not dying, They kept coming so close.

549
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: They had every reason to believe that they were going

550
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: to win, which is honestly part of the whole thing

551
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: is that like part of the reason that there's thousands

552
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: of people willing to do this they thought they were winning.

553
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: I have a question actually that just can like, okay,

554
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 3: so during all this time, does HLS make any like, oh, well,

555
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 3: we'll like tone it down a little bit or something

556
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: like do they try to feed them anything to get

557
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 3: them to stop? Or is it just like they're like,

558
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 3: we're going to fuck up these animals no matter what

559
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 3: you're saying. We're not going to listen to you, and

560
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: you can do whatever you want.

561
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: Everything I've read, and I haven't read everything. Everything I

562
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: read was less we're going to tone it down and

563
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: more like they're lying about us. We are actually incredibly moral.

564
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 2: This is necessary. Don't you want kids to not die

565
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: of cancer? We are the reason that kids don't die

566
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: of cancer. And like, there's some truth in this, right,

567
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: there is some stuff that animal Testing was doing. And

568
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: the thing is that HLS was the all comers no

569
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: matter what you're testing, will do it place right. And

570
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: so they're focusing on the we do the good stuff.

571
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: The activists are focusing on you do the bad stuff,

572
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: and then you have a die hard or who believe

573
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: even if it saves everyone from cancer, you can't kill

574
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: this dog, right, And I'm not even okay, I don't know.

575
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: It's like a way that people can believe things right,

576
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: and you know, because of animals are people too, then

577
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: there's a different set of things that you'll believe in

578
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: ways you'll act right. And you also have these kind

579
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: of fake grassroots groups that would be like protect scientists,

580
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: you know, and some of them might have some legitimate

581
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: grassroots stuff and like scientists and researchers were pretty upset

582
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: about this happening to them. And there's also like the

583
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: parallels between this and the anti choice movement are strong,

584
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: and both of them are coming from positions where they're like,

585
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: we are stopping the Holocaust. This is how I lost

586
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: friends when I was like a baby anarchist vegan in

587
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, when I was like, isn't this

588
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: the same thing? I agree with one and I don't

589
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: agree with the other. Right, well, I partly agree with

590
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: one and I completely don't agree with the other.

591
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 3: I mean it's still like around defining like who gets

592
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: to exist or not or whatever. I mean, that's the

593
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 3: way they talk about it, right, Yeah, the anti choices

594
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: are like, this is life and you can't take it away.

595
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: If you believe that that clump of cells is a person,

596
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: then you're going to behave a certain way. And if

597
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: you believe that a mouse is a person, you're going

598
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: to behave a certain way.

599
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 3: Which means you go and like bomb people, right, that's

600
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: the way you behave.

601
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And honestly, animal rights campaigners are less violent in general,

602
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: you know for sure. And I don't want to draw

603
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,719
Speaker 2: complete and utter comparison like one to one, samey, samey,

604
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: but I think it is an important way to understand

605
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: our enemies, right, and also to understand the danger of

606
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: certain tactics and certain ways of looking at the world,

607
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: and like living within a certain type of echo chamber.

608
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: And if you find yourself as you learn about the world,

609
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: thinking more and more things suddenly seem to make sense

610
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: and seem justifiable, well you should take a step back

611
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: and really look and try to break out of that

612
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: echo chamber.

613
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 3: I was just talking about this with someone actually, and

614
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 3: the way I came down to it as like anyone

615
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 3: who's so righteous in their convictions that they like believe

616
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 3: that other people deserve violence and death is like I

617
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: don't like that, right, I'm like, you shouldn't be so

618
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: convinced you're right that other people should die about it,

619
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 3: you know, Like, yeah, I mean, chill the fuck out.

620
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: It's awkward because on some level, I'm like, well, I

621
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: believe in the great deal of violence necessary to endchattle

622
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: slavery in the United States, right, and like, you know,

623
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: ending the Nazi regime took an awful lot of violence, right,

624
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: But I think that there's a difference between I'm going

625
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: to stop an immediate problem. But that said, that's what

626
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: these people think they're doing.

627
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's true, you know, So I don't know.

628
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: I you know, it's like I'm not a pacifist, but

629
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: if you decide the following class of people not based

630
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: on their actions, but based on their characteristics or beliefs,

631
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: need to die, that's sketch.

632
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: That's better put because I'm not, like, I'm not a

633
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: pacifist either, and I wouldn't like defend obviously like the

634
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 3: Nazis or whatever. But you know, it like gets into

635
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: this with Israel stuff that people who are anti Zionists

636
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 3: get very close to like wanting all Israeli's dead in

637
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 3: a way that I'm like, eh, you know, I don't know, Like.

638
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: Right, you don't control where you're born.

639
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you can start taking on all those

640
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 3: anti Semitic things. So it's just like, yeah, but this

641
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 3: is a different situation, right, like with Iran and all

642
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 3: this stuff, where it's like there's the people who live

643
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 3: in the place and then there's a state who does

644
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: the violence and whatever. Like, you got to differentiate to

645
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 3: a certain extent.

646
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's a difference between the CEO of a

647
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: company and the wife of the janitor's best friend, right exactly.

648
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: And I'm I'm being hyperbolic, but as we get to

649
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: it later, I'm being a little hyperbolic, not a lot

650
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: of hyperbolic. Shack runs into more problems as the campaign

651
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: HLS keeps not dying and both the UK and the

652
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: US pass law after law meant to protect animal agriculture

653
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: and testing against animal rights activists. So the state is

654
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: shoring up its power with which to confront Shack. While

655
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: Shack is kind of in a holding pattern, the state

656
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: is gaining more tools by with which to come after it.

657
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: They basically are adding extra carve outs like it's extra

658
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: illegal to come after vivisectors. There's already a law where

659
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: you're not allowed to hit someone in the head with

660
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,239
Speaker 2: a pickaxe handle. Right, But actually the guy who did

661
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: that did years in prison for the attack, as well

662
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: as rescuing animals and burning empty poultry trucks. Okay, so

663
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: get into more of the bad stuff. There's a moral

664
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: quandary involving calling for leader's list resistance, where you say

665
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: here's a target, do whatever you want. All sorts of

666
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: people might answer the call. For example, Robert Moby might

667
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: answer the calls acer of child sexual assault material in

668
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: maybe two thousand and one his trials. In two thousand

669
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: and two, a man named Robert Moby. He threatened a

670
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: CEO of a mutual fund. He said, quote pull out

671
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: of Huntington Life Sciences now this week, we are going

672
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: to kill you. We have friends that are following you,

673
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 2: and we know everything you do. We know that you

674
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: have a wife and kids. This is for real. Maybe

675
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: we will shoot you, or stun you with a stun gun,

676
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: or run over you, maybe a bomb. Be warned, this

677
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: is for real, not a joke or a threat. We

678
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: will carry out our action and when I first read

679
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: about this guy who got caught for writing this letter.

680
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 2: I read that he got fifty four months in prison

681
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: for that threat and quote other crimes, and I was like,

682
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: what are his other crimes that he has been convicted of?

683
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: In August two thousand and two, when they raided his house,

684
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 2: they found thousands of images of child sexual abuse material

685
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 2: on his computer, and he pled guilty to the threats

686
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 2: as well as seventeen counts of producing child sexual assault material,

687
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: and that got him as fifty four months in prison.

688
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so this is a guy who's like animals

689
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 3: but not kids.

690
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: Well, yes, he did not get out of jail and

691
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: become an upstanding citizen. When I was trying to find

692
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 2: out more information about this, I mostly found his recent news,

693
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 2: which is that he was back in the news a

694
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: couple of years ago, and based on age, location and

695
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: a photo, I believe it is the same Robert Moby.

696
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: He went back to prison because he was stalking his

697
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: twenty two year old neighbor. When he got out, the

698
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: police told the woman that they couldn't guarantee her safety,

699
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: and so he still lived in her apartment building and

700
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: she and her kids had to move. They might have

701
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 2: ended up homeless. Fuck this guy.

702
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, but this is also very typical of anyone who

703
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 3: has to deal with like trying to get ye protection

704
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 3: against a stalker or abusive man. That police are like,

705
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: we can do something after you get killed or shot

706
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 3: or hurt.

707
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 1: We can help you after your dad.

708
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is funny because they share protected the CEO.

709
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, of course, of course Magpie.

710
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 2: Of course, Shaq denied having anything to do with Moby,

711
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: and I think they are telling the truth. They never

712
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 2: coordinated with this man in any way. But he attached

713
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 2: himself to their cause, right. He did the thing that

714
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: people are like, ah, people should just do this stuff,

715
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: and some people might do that stuff. And then there's

716
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: another case that does not leave a good taste in

717
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: my mouth, and it's the case I promised you of

718
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: grave robbing, blackmail by corpse. Have you heard this movement

719
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: story or the.

720
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 3: Oh I don't know this one. I was thinking about

721
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 3: grave robbing earlier though.

722
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: Just in general, just always on your mind. You're just

723
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: can become a resurrectionist.

724
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: In the back of my mind, yeah, you know, I

725
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: was like, this is giving me Frankenstein vibes.

726
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: You know, Well, what's funny is that, like a lot

727
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: of the medical science stuff, grave robbers would sell bodies

728
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: to medical schools.

729
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: Right, that's what I say.

730
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I once drafted a novel I never wrote

731
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 2: called The Resurrectionist. If your job is you are a

732
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 2: criminal who robs graves to sell the bodies to medical schools,

733
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 2: you're a resurrectionist or a resurrection man.

734
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 3: So yeah, they're like, we're not grave robbers. Sorry, yeah, yeah, exactly.

735
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the most evil and metal things

736
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: ever written is by Shakespeare, and it is put in

737
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: the mouth of Aaron the More, who's the racist stereotype

738
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: character in Titus Andronicus and Titus Andronicus. Before he gets hanged,

739
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: he goes on to say, yes, I've done a lot

740
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: of terrible things. He talks about raping people and murdering

741
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 2: people and all this stuff, and then he says, oft

742
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 2: have I digged up dead men from their graves and

743
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: set them upright at their dear friend's door, even when

744
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: their sorrows almost was forgot, And on their skins as

745
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: on the bark of trees, have with my knife carved

746
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: in Roman letters, let not your sorrow die? Though I

747
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: am dead? Tut I have done a thousand dreadful things

748
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: as willingly as one would kill a fly. But nothing

749
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: grieves me heartily indeed, but that I cannot do ten

750
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: thousand more. And so when Shakespeare is doing the like,

751
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: what's the most evil thing I can think of, what

752
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: one of the smartest poets in English comes up with

753
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: is digging up the body of someone that you love

754
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 2: and reminding you about that.

755
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, fucking carving into them too, I know.

756
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: To be clear, Aaron the More does more than the

757
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: animal rights people. I talk to you too, But it's

758
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: better as fiction, is all I have to say about.

759
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: Let Not Your Sorrows Die though I am dead.

760
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a violent ass play.

761
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 2: But yeah no, yeah, and the movie is beautiful for

762
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 2: my like teenage. Yeah.

763
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of overlooked, I think.

764
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, but do you know what may or may

765
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: not be as evil? You missing out on the products

766
00:38:52,280 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: and services that support this show. And we're back. So

767
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: there was this guinea pig farm in the UK and

768
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 2: it was breeding guinea pigs to be used as guinea pigs.

769
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: Oh they're so cute.

770
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 2: I know, thought they were named that way. I know

771
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: they were like nominative determinism. They're like, oh, man, our

772
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: face fucked. We got named guinea pigs.

773
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: I always wanted one as a kid.

774
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: They're so cute.

775
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: They were so cute and like, you know, there was

776
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: like one at school and then like they had you

777
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 1: take it home for a week and take care of it. Oh,

778
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: guinea pigs adorable.

779
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 2: One of my friends had a very small apartment and

780
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 2: a roommate, but still they're like kind of like sun

781
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 2: roomy alcove thing. It was like half their living room

782
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: was entirely a guinea pig like series of cages with

783
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,439
Speaker 2: like tunnels between them and stuff. Fuck.

784
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so cool.

785
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 3: Yeah they like the guinea pigs live in luxury and

786
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 3: we're over here.

787
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, yeah, exactly. The conditions at this guinea pig

788
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 2: farm were not as nice as they were at my

789
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 2: friend's apartment. I watched one of the undercover videos from

790
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 2: an alf person who broke in in two thousand and

791
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: fourish and guinea pigs that were resorting to cannibalism in

792
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 2: these windowless sheds where they spent their entire short lives

793
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: if they weren't sold to be cut open while they

794
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: are alive. One of the daily tasks at this place

795
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: is to clean up the guinea pig corpses from the

796
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: little guys who died overnight. And again this is the

797
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 2: place that's breeding them. And also lab animals expensive, like

798
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: a lab rat, an unspecialized lab rat is about one

799
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: thousand dollars. And I don't think there's a reason you'd

800
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: need to They could have perfectly fine lives until they

801
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: have a weird, very strange ending. So people were like,

802
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: we don't like this guinea pig factory. We would like

803
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: to shut it down. And it was a long campaign.

804
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 2: It was six years long. It started in nineteen ninety nine,

805
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: and it won in the end. And they did all

806
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: the usual shit, endless death threats, the occasional mail bomb,

807
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 2: chasing off employees by writing their names, and shotgun shells

808
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: outside their houses, you know, normal stuff. I think that

809
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: was the janitor. They left a doll with a knife

810
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: in its chest on somebody's doorstep.

811
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: Oh god.

812
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 2: More than one hundred different people were targeted with threats

813
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 2: for associations with the guinea pig farm, including women who

814
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: played darts with one of the owner's wives. No, I say, yeah,

815
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: four hundred and fifty criminal acts were recorded in just

816
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 2: two years of the six year campaign, and then one

817
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: day in two thousand and four, a group of people

818
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: dug up the body of one of the owner's mother

819
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: in laws and stole it.

820
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 3: The fuck I was just like, imagine They're like sitting

821
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 3: somewhere being like, I got an idea, you know, I.

822
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: Just watching, Are you just adronicus?

823
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 3: And everyone's like dah, that sounds fucking good man, nice one.

824
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: I think that that's what happened. They're also all in

825
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 2: their fucking mid thirties.

826
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 3: Come on, so no excuse, you don't get that twenties excuse.

827
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 2: Now I know. And they sent a note saying you

828
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: can't have her back unless you closed the farm. The

829
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: cops had a likely suspect that they rounded up right away.

830
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: They showed up and raided this guy's house. One of

831
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: the public spokespeople for the ALF was this guy named

832
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 2: John Curtin. Very serious names they have over there in England,

833
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: and he had spent two years in prison twenty years

834
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: earlier for an animal rights related grave robbing attempt. In

835
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four. He had tried to dig up a

836
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: recently dead duke to cut off his head to send

837
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: to the princess.

838
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: So this is just like your thing, bro, Yeah.

839
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: No, it's a different guy though at the end we'll

840
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: find out. Okay, here's just the inspiration. And I just

841
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 2: think it's the most British thing I can imagine as

842
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: the animal rights campaigner digging up a duke's to cut

843
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: off his head and said to the princess, and this

844
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: duke was like specifically a like hunter who would like

845
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 2: go and hunt animals in Africa and hunt in dangered

846
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: species and shit, you know, it's like what he did

847
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 2: with his money and power. John Curtin never succeeded his

848
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 2: spade broke. He was like, this is a dumb publicity stunt.

849
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: What the fuck was I doing? He spent two years

850
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 2: in prison for it. They raided his house and they

851
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: arrest him. And what he has to say about this

852
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 2: new digging up of a grave. I have been trying

853
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: for the past twenty years to get away from the

854
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 2: Duke of Bayfort thing. But that was not the same

855
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: at all as the Yoxele desecration. A few of us

856
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 2: had come up with the idea as a publicity stunt.

857
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: There was a whole dog, but there was no body

858
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: or bones. Lifted. I realized now how sick it was

859
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 2: to do it. My own mother died a few years ago,

860
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 2: and I stood at her grave and thought about the

861
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: Duke and regretted what I had done. But at the

862
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: same time, he was a man whose entire life was

863
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: taken up with blood sports. He was a psychopath who

864
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: killed lions and tigers and protected species on safaris abroad,

865
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 2: and who was mad about hunting. Missus Hammond was different.

866
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: I find what happened to her revolting and appalling. Like

867
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: any normal person, even though that might sound rich coming

868
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 2: from someone like me, I would urge whoever has the

869
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: remains to return them for me. This grave robbing is

870
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 2: like handing everything on a plate to her opponents. It

871
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: is a disaster public relations wise. And this is the

872
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: fucking spokesperson of the ALF. This is the person who's like, man,

873
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 2: I don't give a shit what happens to you motherfuckers.

874
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 2: You know, like, this isn't a milk toast guy. And

875
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: it really did turn people off this campaign. For eighteen months,

876
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 2: the owners held out regardless as the campaign dragged on.

877
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 2: Finally they caved and movement lower. Oral word of mouth

878
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: is that they caved because of the dead mom thing,

879
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 2: and they announced that by the end of two thousand

880
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 2: and five they would end all guinea pig farming operations

881
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: and return to like regular, regular farming. And they were like,

882
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: so can we please have our mom back?

883
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 3: Wait? How do you revert from guinea pig farming to

884
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 3: regular farm? You're like, oh, now we're going to plant things,

885
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 3: you mean.

886
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they're doing animal agriculture right, And

887
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: like they had other animals on the farm, so it

888
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 2: was just like they kind of were like, oh, wait,

889
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 2: there's our shed where the guinea pigs eat each other.

890
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: You know.

891
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's interesting though that you said people were like, well,

892
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 3: this is the thing that did it, because then that

893
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 3: means that there are people who are like, this was

894
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 3: actually a chill thing to do, because.

895
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: I know, I've talked to a lot of people who

896
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: believe this is a perfectly chill thing to do. Yeah,

897
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: And that makes me feel insane, you know, because I'm like,

898
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 2: but it's not. There's certain things that you don't do

899
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: to your enemies, right, Like, even if you could justify violence,

900
00:45:58,680 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: I don't.

901
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 3: It's just no, I'm way more supportive of violence than

902
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 3: digging up someone's moms. Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah, that's

903
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: not even doesn't even really make sense. I mean, like

904
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 3: when you put it in the tightest andronicus context, it's like, whoa,

905
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: that's fucking evil. But like as a tactic, if you

906
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 3: just think it up for like a protest, right, you're

907
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 3: not like some fucking person going to fucking lay waste

908
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 3: to a city.

909
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah you know what I mean, Yeah, totally, it's like

910
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: what and the activists didn't return the body?

911
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 3: Whoa?

912
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 2: And that's where I'm like, any semblance of sympathy now

913
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: you just have no honor.

914
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 3: What the fuck happened to that body?

915
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: You wonder? I was living in the Nevills of the time,

916
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 2: and I was friends with this kid, like literally a

917
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: sixteen year old who told me the story breathlessly excited,

918
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: and I was appalled, And then I was extra appalled

919
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: when I found out they didn't keep their word and

920
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: return the body. And the kid was like, why would

921
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 2: you return the body? That would just get you caught? Yeah,

922
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: all right, I'm not even trying to make a judgment

923
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: on this person. He was sixteen years old, But the

924
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 2: cops caught the grave robbers anyway, and the way they

925
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: caught them was the cops being really clever. They had

926
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: some likely suspects, like a bunch of people I suspect that.

927
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: They were like, oh, these people are involved in the campaign,

928
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: and like are like kind of on the sketchier end

929
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: of it, we think it might be them. And so

930
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: they went on TV, probably channel four, I don't know,

931
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: I got twenty five percent chance again, right, And they

932
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 2: went on TV and they were like, well, whoever has

933
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 2: the body? I bet they don't even have it. They

934
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: need to prove it. And they were waiting outside these

935
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: people's houses and so then everyone left and got in

936
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: the car with like a shovel and ski masks and

937
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: shit and drove off to the woods. And so the

938
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 2: cops tailed them and were like, all right, you're the

939
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: fucking people who did this.

940
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: That also proves how bad a tactic it is if

941
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, if you fall for them, because you're

942
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 3: like so committed to this fucking.

943
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah all right. And they were never actually convicted of

944
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: the grave robbing. They were convicted of the extortion. And

945
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: so you'll find old posts on indie media of people

946
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 2: being like it's a conspiracy. The trial is a sham.

947
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 2: They didn't steal the body. They stole the fucking body.

948
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 2: Later one of them gave up where it was like

949
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: when they were like caught anyway, when I was like, yeah,

950
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: go get the body. It's over there. And the eighty

951
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 2: four year old dead woman was reburied and there was

952
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: four convictions total for that and they spent total of

953
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: two to five years in prison each. And it may

954
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: or may not be what's shut down the guinea pig farm,

955
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: and fuck, I just I hate this. Yeah, I hate

956
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 2: every part of it.

957
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,280
Speaker 3: Awful sort of tells you something like if you decide

958
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 3: that that was why, you know, versus some other reason.

959
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: It might have been why they shut down the farm.

960
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because mostly when you threaten people, people are like,

961
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: well fuck you then, But if you do it long

962
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: enough and bad enough, people eventually break.

963
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it.

964
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: Doesn't make me feel good that that's true. And I

965
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: don't want to say that this is the exception, but

966
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: certainly this is the extreme right. I'm not covering a

967
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 2: lot like hundreds or thousands of actions that are much

968
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 2: easier to justify and explain to people, right, like being

969
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: like you invest in this at your bank, so we've

970
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 2: broken your windows and thrown red paint, and you know,

971
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 2: like there's like direct action activist ways of doing things,

972
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 2: and I'm not covering those in as much detail. And

973
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: I feel a little bit bad about that by covering

974
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: sort of the extreme part of it. But you can't

975
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 2: not tell this story about the fucking grave robbing, partly

976
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: because I actually think leaving out the story about the

977
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 2: grave robbing and some of the other stuff is kind

978
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: of doing a disservice even to ourselves and our own

979
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: movements to say like everything was finding glow worrious, we

980
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 2: did nothing wrong, you know.

981
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you sort of get to find by the like

982
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: worst thing, I guess in a way, yeah, which is

983
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 3: also like, I don't know, this isn't making me think

984
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: about the history of anarchism too, right, because if you're

985
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 3: an anergism, you'd be like, well, I can't control what

986
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 3: other people do, and some people are gonna do fucked

987
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 3: up shit. But then it falls back on everyone, you know, Yeah,

988
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 3: which happened I think in the beginning of the twentieth century.

989
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 3: It was like the bombing shit, you know, like.

990
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 2: Which mostly drove people away from anarchism, right, not everywhere,

991
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: it actually in Russia, it actually probably helped, although it

992
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 2: was actually mostly the Social Democrats doing it in Russia

993
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: in like nineteen five to ten or whatever. Right, But

994
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 2: like I remember reading about like an anarchist killed an

995
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 2: unpopular president McKinley, and it kind of ended anarchism in

996
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 2: America as like the dominant force of the left.

997
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, like no good.

998
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: So in general, the way that the Shat campaign worked

999
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 2: was that, well, individuals would get caught for individual actions.

1000
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: That's not the whole movement, right, And you know, the

1001
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 2: people who are saying like, oh, here's stuff that's happening,

1002
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 2: aren't in charge and aren't criminally liable because of free speech.

1003
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 2: That's the idea. Anyway, the US government had different ideas.

1004
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: I know, I've jumped back across the pond here and

1005
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: we're back in the US. But the FBI declared eco

1006
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: and animal extremism to be the number one domestic terrorist

1007
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 2: threat in two thousand and five, despite the fact that

1008
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: they had literally harmed nobody. And if you look at

1009
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 2: any studies of violent extremism, the right wing regularly kills

1010
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 2: just to several orders of magnitude more people. And in

1011
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, you get the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act,

1012
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 2: which says that causing damage to any animal enterprise is terrorism.

1013
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: Freeing animals is terrorism. Breaking the windows of a factory

1014
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 2: pharmist terrorism. If you spray paint puppy killer on somebody's car,

1015
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 2: that's terrorism. And the repression worked to be blunt. Protests

1016
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 2: were criminalized more and more intensely, and in two thousand

1017
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: and six, the Shack seven were convicted on conspiracy to

1018
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 2: commit terrorism for running the Shack website. There was actually

1019
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: six of them, but charges were dropped against the seventh person,

1020
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 2: and so then they were like, well, we've already come

1021
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: up with the Shack seven, So the movement itself is

1022
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: the seventh person.

1023
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 3: Shack seven sounds better than Shack six.

1024
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: It does. And the Shack website didn't actually say hey,

1025
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 2: everyone here, go do crime. It just was a clearing

1026
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 2: house for information about HLS and people connected to it,

1027
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 2: including I believe, like doxing info. It was then and

1028
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: now generally seen as a free speech trial. Josh Harper,

1029
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 2: one of the convicted folks, said, quote, I understand why

1030
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 2: home demonstrations and personal targeting is so controversial, But when

1031
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 2: you take a billionaire like Warren Stevens, He's got this

1032
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 2: tremendous amount of comfort. Every time he plays golf. There

1033
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 2: you are. When he goes out shopping, there you are,

1034
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 2: and when he comes home, there you are. And I

1035
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 2: think that this is accurate when you're talking about a

1036
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: fucking billionaire, when you're talking about the people who are

1037
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,879
Speaker 2: destroying the world, when you're talking about the person who

1038
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: punches the puppy, when you talk about the person who

1039
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 2: owns the punchy pumping compositive thing. You know, when you

1040
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: talk about the investors, maybe you have to say, like, look,

1041
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 2: we will pick at you, but we're not going to

1042
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 2: like protest outside your kid's school just because you invest

1043
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: in this company. Right, we have to understand that degrees

1044
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: of separation change things about how we handle people. Another defendant,

1045
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 2: Andy Stepnian, told a reporter from the Intercept quote, simply

1046
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 2: because we didn't close Huntington doesn't disqualify the tactics. The

1047
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 2: question instead becomes when should these tactics be deployed and

1048
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: with what frequency? And is it always right?

1049
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 3: Because you're like, you know, you don't go to the

1050
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 3: person's kids school. When I was thinking, like Elizabeth Warren

1051
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 3: was like at dinner with someone and this Pastinian woman

1052
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: came up and like interrupted their dinner, and I was like,

1053
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 3: this is like, fucking that's good, that's amazing.

1054
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: That's Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, she's making these decisions right.

1055
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 3: But I guess like you could think about like protesting

1056
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 3: outside of someone's house that the air kids there, they

1057
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 3: could be fucking scared. But I also am like, you know,

1058
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 3: Chuck Schumer or fucking whatever. These people, I don't know,

1059
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 3: like some of these people shouldn't live in peace, is

1060
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 3: how I feel. You know, just get off easy with

1061
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 3: no no hitches.

1062
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 2: But the person who works the front desk at the

1063
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: weapons manufacturer, maybe you shouldn't go to right, Maybe you

1064
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,399
Speaker 2: go to our bosses. Yes, you know, like I think

1065
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 2: the movement has thought about this and does think about it,

1066
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,280
Speaker 2: you know, And I think it's telling in that quote,

1067
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: like someone who went to jail for this being like, yeah,

1068
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: like these tactics work. Sometimes they're appropriate in certain situations

1069
00:54:56,120 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 2: when where these things it's not neutral. You have to

1070
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: think about these things and to end with a bit

1071
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 2: of a reminder of the thing that they were fighting against,

1072
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 2: because I think that's really important to consider in this too.

1073
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 2: HLS continued. It has changed names and bought out a

1074
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 2: couple times. Shaq didn't take it out, but they came

1075
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 2: close again and again. And also I think that they

1076
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 2: like they changed the conversation about this. They really fucked

1077
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 2: with the Overton window about this, And I think a

1078
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 2: lot of the understanding about what happens with animal testing

1079
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 2: and like making people justify it, making people justify every

1080
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 2: single act of animal testing instead of being like, whatever,

1081
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 2: it is, just a fucking animal, I could do whatever

1082
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 2: I want. Has happened because of people who are like

1083
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 2: more extreme right. But HLS didn't stop being fucked up

1084
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 2: and Vigo, which is what they changed their name to

1085
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,439
Speaker 2: for a while before they got bought out by someone

1086
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 2: else with another dumb, weird, corporate sounding name. It was

1087
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 2: found in twenty twenty one to have more than sixty

1088
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: Animal Welfare Act violations at one facility, and these aren't

1089
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 2: like sixty individual acts. One of these sixty was not

1090
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 2: investigating the death of three hundred puppies. Dogs were being

1091
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 2: euthanized for minor injuries without anesthesia nursing mother, dogs were

1092
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 2: denied food. Dogs were found to be kept in tiny

1093
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 2: cages covered in bugs, and literal shit. There was one

1094
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 2: veterinarian at the facility for thousands of dogs. This is

1095
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, because I started it being like, oh,

1096
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: but things kind of got better and they, like you know,

1097
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: helped pave the way for more, like people who are

1098
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 2: using animals for money are going to just maximize profit.

1099
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 2: Four hundred and forty six animals were seized when the

1100
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 2: facility in Virginia was closed, or it was more than

1101
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 2: four thousand, depending on your source. I get really annoyed

1102
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff. That is an order of magnetism.

1103
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 3: There was a foreign there.

1104
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. The company pled guilty to conspiring to violate the

1105
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 2: Clean Water Act for letting feces discharge into the creak,

1106
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 2: and they had to pay twenty two million dollars in damages.

1107
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 2: And what's interesting is that these are criminal charges, including felonies,

1108
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: against this corporation and it just has to pay a fine.

1109
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 2: If corporations are people, go to fucking jail. You just should.

1110
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 2: It's not even how I want to set up society.

1111
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 2: I don't want corporations or laws, but you have some

1112
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 2: consistency here. If a corporation gets to count as a

1113
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 2: person and has rights. It should be fucking put in

1114
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 2: a goddamn cell if I have to.

1115
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 3: I'm turning around. I'm like, you know, give the Prairie

1116
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 3: Land defendants fines, you know, just be like, yeah, totally

1117
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 3: all right, all felonies fines now, Yeah, Yeah, I'm fine

1118
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 3: with that.

1119
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I have to say credit where it's due.

1120
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 2: I know, I've just kind of talked shit on everybody

1121
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 2: and all sides of this the whole fucking episode. PETA

1122
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 2: led the investigation that revealed the horrors at that place.

1123
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,919
Speaker 2: So Peter, less sexist billboards and focus on undercover investigations

1124
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: into animal abuse. You're good at that.

1125
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 3: And Brigitte Bardot is dead. So Peter is like Scott

1126
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 3: free now because they don't have this fascist as their spokesperson.

1127
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I didn't even know that I did.

1128
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Brigit Bardeaux, who's like, you know, this sexy French

1129
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 3: actress from the sixties, did some cool songs with Stage Gamsburg,

1130
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 3: then became a PETA spokesperson and a fascist.

1131
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: And a giant fascist.

1132
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 2: WHOA. What's funny is that the animal rights and environmental

1133
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 2: communities you do get a lot of like celebrities involved. Yeah,

1134
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 2: and like one of the people who was cut from

1135
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 2: the script because it was just too much of a

1136
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: side quest and the episode was already running along the

1137
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 2: original voice of Lucy from an animated Peanuts movie and

1138
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 2: was also on Lassie and was uh Lucy Lassie some

1139
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 2: other classic I think her character was named Lucy in

1140
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 2: the Lassie Show too, But she's an animal rights actvist too,

1141
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 2: was getting beat up by cops and suing them and

1142
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 2: doing all this stuff, you know. I just I can't

1143
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: remember a name because I cut it from the script.

1144
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: I'm terribly sorry. And if you did listen, I don't

1145
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 2: know whatever. And I will say I'm glad animal testing

1146
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 2: seems to be on its way out, and don't fucking

1147
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 2: keep animals and conditions like that, you motherfuckers. And I

1148
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 2: do think it's important to kind of end on remembering

1149
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 2: that this is the thing that they were fighting against,

1150
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 2: even if there are some examples in here that I'm

1151
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: not happy with.

1152
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes I think about this like anarchism in a

1153
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 3: way lays the groundwork. I think for any movement that's

1154
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 3: been at all successful or like visible, you know, it

1155
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:50,959
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean to be people who are like self

1156
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 3: about anarchists, but like the anarchist's way of doing things.

1157
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 3: And then you know, it's like, okay, so the successes

1158
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 3: that we've seen end up being reforms that are reversible, right,

1159
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 3: and so is the best thing that we can do

1160
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 3: with the most radical you know actions to get reforms

1161
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,479
Speaker 3: that are reversible? Then what the fuck are we doing

1162
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 3: as anarchists? You know, like that's not what we want, no,

1163
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 3: it is.

1164
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 2: It is interesting, and but I also am like what

1165
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 2: we do is we participate in our lives as fully

1166
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 2: and genuinely as we can and actually say what we

1167
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 2: want and be against the things we're against. And also like,

1168
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 2: anarchism is more of a verb than a noun, right,

1169
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 2: I mean, anarchism is a noun, but you know, like

1170
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 2: it implies action and it matters about like how we

1171
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 2: go about things. About halfway through, I was like, why

1172
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: the fuck did I pick this topic? I'm going to

1173
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 2: make everyone unhappy? And I also like, there's so much

1174
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 2: more to this, It's like, and everything I'm reading about

1175
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 2: it is so biased, including biases that I often share.

1176
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 2: But that's where I have to look the hardest. Yeah,

1177
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 2: you know, when I read something and I'm like, yeah, yeah,

1178
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: right on, I'm like, oh fuck, I better find some

1179
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 2: other fucking point of view about this. You know that

1180
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 2: doesn't really answer your question, but it just no.

1181
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 3: I think you're right. Like anarchism, I share the same idea,

1182
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 3: Like anarchism is the way you. Oh, I probably got

1183
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 3: it from you in the world, I got it from

1184
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 3: your babe.

1185
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: Oh.

1186
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 2: Thanks. Well, what if people want to get more from you?

1187
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 2: What if you have a worker on collective of writers

1188
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 2: who collect shiny objects.

1189
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: Yes, I belong to a Murder of Crows names ka

1190
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 3: as a writer collective with Karla Joi Bergman, Danny Burlison,

1191
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 3: and Vicky osterwhile we've like collectivized our writing and output

1192
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 3: to share with the world so you don't have to

1193
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 3: subscribe to like a million different things. And if you

1194
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 3: describe it to us, you get all of our work,

1195
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 3: plus the Discord community where we do book clubs and

1196
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 3: writing workshops, and yeah, you can write us advice questions.

1197
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 3: I also host a podcast, The Breakup Theory, where you

1198
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 3: can also ask me questions if you want to hear

1199
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 3: me say things. And also I just want to plug

1200
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 3: this book that I'm finishing called Live Through This in

1201
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 3: Anarchist Antidote Despair, which is coming out with Pluto within

1202
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 3: the next year, which touches on some of the stuff

1203
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 3: that we were talking about about how anarchism actually could

1204
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 3: work in our lives because we know what the fuck

1205
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 3: we're doing, and politics sometimes sucks us into a spectacle. Shit.

1206
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 3: Well yeah, we don't used to know all the time

1207
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:25,919
Speaker 3: what we're doing.

1208
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 2: I mean, no, I know, yeah, but yes fuck yeah.

1209
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 3: Well thanks for having me on too, because this is

1210
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 3: awesome and I love your show and you know I

1211
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 3: love your writing.

1212
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: Thanks. Yeah, we for anyone listening. I well, not how

1213
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 2: we met, but early on in hanging Out, I would

1214
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 2: get to go to Shooley's classes and they would have

1215
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 2: read A Country A Ghosts, which is the thing I'll plug.

1216
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 2: I wrote a book once called A Country Ghosts. It

1217
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 2: is an anarchist utopian novel set in an alternate early

1218
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 2: twentieth century, late nineteenth century. There's a war in it,

1219
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 2: some people get shot.

1220
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 3: It's really good. You like Envision World that has some

1221
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 3: really important points that Yeah, I recommend it highly. Thanks

1222
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 3: and all your other books too, Oh.

1223
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 2: Sophia guy, Then you want to plug ah just cool

1224
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 2: zone media? Hell yeah, all right.

1225
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 3: See y'll soon Bye.

1226
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1227
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1228
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out

1229
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: on iHeartMedia, app, app a Podcasts, or wherever you get

1230
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: your podcasts.