WEBVTT - S14, Ep13 | Lessons for Activists Fighting Climate Obstruction 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:08.360 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy wester Up. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:13.440 Today we're bringing you the last episode in our season fourteen, Obstruction. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.080 We were looking at this book from the Climate Social 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.439 Science Network that's pulled together all of the peer reviewed 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:25.279 research on climate obstruction globally. That book is called Climate 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.360 Obstruction a Global Assessment. There's a link in the show 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:30.560 notes to download a free copy of it if you'd 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:34.599 like it for a reference. I highly recommend you download 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.960 it and read it and keep all the footnotes links 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.680 to all the different studies. It's a super super handy reference. 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:45.239 Today the final episode maps to the final chapter in 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.240 that book, which is looking at one of the tactics 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:53.239 that works to combat obstruction. Last week we talked about litigation, 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:58.120 and this week we are talking about activism of various kinds. 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.160 To do that, I'm joined by Jenny Stephens at National 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.160 University of Ireland Manuth and Sharon Yadin from the University 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.200 of Haifa. Each of them walked me through a different 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:12.840 type of effective activism against obstruction, and I found both 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.680 of those conversations super super interesting. 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:17.880 I hope you do too. They're coming up after this 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:19.319 quick break. 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.880 I'm Jenny Stevens. I'm professor of Climate Justice at the 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.200 National University of Ireland in Manuth. 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.600 I actually wanted to ask you before we get into 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.600 some of the more detailed questions just about this chapter 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.679 in general, because it's one of the two chapters in 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.080 this book that actually look at some of the pushback 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.640 to obstruction and I guess I just want to ask you, 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:55.480 sort of broadly the role that activism plays in that 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.000 pushback and why it's effective. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:05.760 Yes, I think one of the things that we did 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.000 in this chapter is really try to focus on how 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:16.600 important the resistance to climate obstructionism is and the kind 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.359 of revealing and expanding awareness, kind of the social exposure 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.120 peace is a big part of it, but also that 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.239 there's a lot of policy advocacy that's going on that's 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:33.040 also really important. And then campaigns and protests and and 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:39.240 you know, direct engagement with communities in mobilizing public concern 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.160 is another big part of it. So those are kind 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.760 of the three different areas that we looked at of 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.239 how we can and we are and people have been 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:52.640 for decades trying to resist and confront the denialism, the delay, 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.280 and then also the distraction. Right because I think a 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.880 lot of what we see is you know, putting up 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.960 other issues that are trying to just kind of distract 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:11.520 us from fossil fuel phase out or more transformative climate 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.600 policy that's urgently needed and the science has showed us 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:16.239 for so long that that it is needed. 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.280 Yeah. Okay, So there's this point that comes up in 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.600 the chapter that I thought was really interesting and important 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:25.960 to talk about, which is that you kind of make 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:31.200 this point that the research on climate obstruction and climate 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:36.400 activism needs to also be happening outside of universities because 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:42.320 of the academic capture problem on many university campuses. Can 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.280 you talk through some examples of what that looks like 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.720 and then also what the non university research looks like. 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:54.200 Sometimes it's hard for people to acknowledge that there's any 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.720 credibility in the research that's happening outside of universities, in 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.240 part because of you know, the think tanks and all 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:05.120 of that stuff that have been involved in obstructionism too. So, yeah, 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:09.640 examples of what the fossil fuel capture looks like and 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:14.440 this sort of no fly zone of even researching fossil 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.479 fuel phase out and things like that, and then what 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.480 is the research that's happening outside of universities. 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:27.760 So I've been studying climate action and transformative change toward climate, 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:33.039 responding to climate crisis in academia for over thirty years. 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:39.719 And what I experienced myself is realizing how much of 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:44.920 the climate and energy research in academia is actually funded 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:49.839 by fossil fuel interests. Right. They actually Charles Koch back 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.240 in the seventies identified invest in universities because it can 0:04:54.360 --> 0:05:01.400 legitimize this market fundamentalism, pro business, anti regulatory regime, and 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:06.960 universities are so powerful and legitimizing certain approaches, including fossil 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.080 fuel friendly technologies like carbon capture and storage and solar 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:17.120 gew engineering. And so my own experience in academia a 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:21.719 lot of engagement with people, mentors who I looked up to, 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:27.279 who then I started realizing are promoting fossil fuel climate 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:31.480 obstructionist talking points, you know, in their academic research. So 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.760 this is this is the idea of academic capture or 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.200 corporate capture of higher education. And as part of the 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.800 Climate Social Science Network, I was part of a group 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.520 that you know, kind of has exposed some of this 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:49.320 the degree to which fossil fuel interests have been investing 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.880 in higher education, particularly in the United States, in the UK, 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:58.719 in Australia and Canada for big fossil fuel countries, you know, 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.280 is much deeper than many of us recognize, and it's 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.239 been going on for decades. So it's deeply embedded within 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:10.960 the academic climate and energy research culture. And so this 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.320 is where you know, I started. Many of us have 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.680 started to notice, why aren't we doing research on how 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.280 to phase out fossil fuels in our universities? That should 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.040 be the number one priority, right, but it isn't because 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.920 of this capture. So I think what's been really really 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.440 important is, as you mentioned, the non academic research, right, 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:36.640 there's so many NGOs, investigative journalists like yourself and others 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:42.479 who are you know, digging in exposing greenwashing and delay tactics, 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.680 exposing carbon offsetting strategies and how those are not you know, 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:52.880 just delaying things and net zero claims and corporate interests 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.279 in climate policy. So there's NGOs around the world. Many 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.800 of them are international and collaborating, some are specific to 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:05.720 specific countries that are really trying to and have been 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:12.000 really really important in exposing and how fossil fuel interests 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.480 are so deep and in particular. I think some of 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:19.600 the really important work has not just been with science 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.920 and kind of exposing the corporate interest, but in climate finance, 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.040 and I think you know, organizations like Oil Change International, 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.440 they're banking on climate chaos. They've really just kind of 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.600 exposed in ways that no academic is doing with the 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:43.200 same rigor and focus and really, you know, really being 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:51.080 able to create kind of a whole structure for trying 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.880 to hold accountable year after year what's going on in 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:56.960 all of these different contexts. So I think it's been 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.720 that's where the non academic research is just so important 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.440 because academic research, although it's supposed it is supposed to 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.840 be independent and you know, free and academic to study 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.560 what we want in the universities, there actually are these 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:17.120 deep constraints because of funding. I've been told all kinds 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.000 of things, very condescending, like, oh, you're so smart, why 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.400 aren't you focusing on this, you know, this kind of thing. 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.160 You know, I have a science an engineering background, like 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.120 a lot of these people that we're talking about, and why. 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.719 Are you wasting it studying justice? Jenny exactly. 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.880 And this is where a lot of the people who 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.960 have control over the research agendas really don't have very 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:47.040 much social science or interest in understanding how to even 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.840 study power dynamics. Right, So this is where there's just 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:54.640 like a blinders if, like, oh, it's all technical this 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.360 and this and economics and the money, and it's just 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.960 about costs and technology and that's it. Everything else is 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:06.000 just wishy washy. And that's where it's so constrained all 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.200 the climate energy research and universities as well. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.960 so little in the social science and the well. 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:14.599 And I feel like that made its way into the 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.040 IPCC too, right, where like it was only in the 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.920 most recent assessment that we even had social scientists included. 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:25.000 But that's wild to me that It's like, how long 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.880 have people been saying, oh, this is like a you know, 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.960 an issue of political will and all of that stuff, 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.600 but we're not going to have social scientists in here 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.319 to talk about what creates or blocks political will. 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:39.960 I know, it's frustrating. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.839 In the US, we're dealing with the second Trump administration 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:48.840 and a huge amount of suppression of climate science in 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:52.560 general and university research and scientists and all of that. 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:57.080 I'm wondering if there's anything that's happened so far that 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:01.320 surprises you from a suppression stamp point. We're obviously seeing 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:05.760 like suppression of protest as well. I mean, you know, 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.880 it's all outrageous, but yeah, is there anything that that 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:13.840 like particularly surprises you as a suppression tactic. 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:20.080 I think what has surprised me the most is actually 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:27.679 the power and kind of contribution of the tech bros, right, 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.520 and how central they've been and I think AI and 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.880 promoting tech at all costs. I mean, I think the 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:41.000 tech companies have become major climate obstructionists. Right. They used 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.000 to have kind of sustainability climate but they've kind of 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.920 dropped a lot of that and they're now essentially getting 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.040 into the fossil fuel business because they need so much 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:58.600 energy for all the data centers and so they and 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.400 I think that's what the Trump administration and this new 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:09.440 era we're in, they are, you know, collaborating complicit in 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:13.920 ways that it's just so powerful. And I don't think 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.400 we even wreck you know, we're all coming to terms 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.720 with how much power they have. But I would say 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:24.360 that that is climate obstructionism, you know, but it isn't 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:25.920 often framed that way. We don't think of it that 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.880 way because it's climate is kind of off the agenda 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.959 for in many of these discussions. But that's exactly you know, 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:38.360 the most effective denial delay tactic is just don't talk 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.040 about it and just pretend it's not there and proceed 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.840 as if everything's fine and we can have all this 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:50.360 AI proliferation and data centers everywhere and increase our energy 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:55.679 demand for what. Like, it's not clear what AI is 0:11:55.760 --> 0:12:01.760 offering in terms of the multiple the humanity is facing 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.439 right other than exacin no. 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.400 I know, Well, there's this whole weird talking point about 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.280 how AI is like just very vague with a lot 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.760 of conviction the AI is going to solve. 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.120 Climate change to like, Okay, I mean. 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.040 I get, I get that there are things that AI 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:22.680 can do efficiency wise to automate you know, energy efficiency 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.319 in certain processes. But then I feel like that's got 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.080 to be getting blown out of the water by the 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.200 extent to which they're just cramming it into everything and 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.480 creating huge energy needs and. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:38.480 Data centers and all of that stuff. 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:40.840 Yeah, I mean, it's it's a set of tools that 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.120 can be used for all kinds of things, but that 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.720 doesn't mean that, yeah, you know, it's critical for all 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:51.040 kinds of things. And even in the universities, the narrative 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.800 of inevitability, like we have to use it, we all 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.120 have to get on board to teach our students, and 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.319 it's just I mean, for me, it's part of climate obstructionism. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.360 Yeah, it's interesting to watch. 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.560 Okay, So actually kind of related to the tech guys 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.360 because I feel like a part of what they've done 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:11.600 as well is take over the information ecosystem in this 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.640 way that I don't know, we almost kind of didn't 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.480 see coming. It's like everybody's been talking about social media 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.160 for a long time, but I don't know that people 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.720 understood the extent to which it was taking over the 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.520 role of news media. Like people talked about how it 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.320 was impacting the ad revenue model and you know, traffic 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.400 and this and that, but not necessarily like connecting the 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.079 dots to oh yeah, now it's becoming the way that 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.040 people get information. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.400 And these guys have total control over it, which it's 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.880 you know, a smart move if you really hate the 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.040 media and you don't want people like prying into your business. 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.720 So anyway, there was this line in this chapter that 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.360 I'm going to read because I want to have you 0:13:57.520 --> 0:13:58.440 talk about it a little bit. 0:13:58.480 --> 0:13:59.120 I thought it was. 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.920 It was really interesting. So those media actors must also 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.800 navigate a public arena where authenticity or how easy it 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:11.840 is to believe information is increasingly valued over facticity the 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.080 degree to which the claims made can be verified. So 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:19.080 you mentioned a couple of countermeasures that are combating that issue, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.360 especially around monitoring, and I'd love to have you talk 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.360 about those, And I also am curious for your take 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:31.840 on this attempt to label those kinds of measures as censorship, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.640 which has been an interesting and kind of effective strategy. 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.240 I would say as well, So, yeah, what's working? And 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.800 then what's your response to the idea that any attempt 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:48.680 to I guess prioritize more factual information over not so 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.640 factual information gets branded as censorship. 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:58.800 Yeah. So I think the role of the media in 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:05.920 kind of countering the misinformation right is, I mean, is 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:12.000 so important. And I think there are these several you know, 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.040 we mentioned several of these kind of global coalitions of 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:22.600 actors trying to provide monitoring and then counter claims right 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:28.800 to hold accountable media representations that may not be accurate. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.400 So I think, you know, and there's there's many different 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.280 ways that people are trying to do this, and I 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:41.640 think one really interesting one is the Climate Action against Disinformation, 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.360 which is a global coalition that is, you know, really 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.560 trying to combat the spread of misinformation, particularly on tech platforms. 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:55.280 And you know, I think that is just so important 0:15:55.440 --> 0:16:01.040 in terms of trying to hold accountable Google x Meta, 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.000 like these big platforms that as we all know, have 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.120 so much power in terms of influencing what we see, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.680 what we see, right, and what we don't see, and 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:12.800 what we learn about and what we don't learn about. 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:17.280 So I think these kinds of efforts are just so important, 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.760 and you know, and and but they're under attack, as 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:27.520 you mentioned, right, with being claims of of censoring the 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.480 media or also you know, being being attacked or losing 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.200 their funding. Right. I think that the Climate Nexus is 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.960 one of these organizations that closed in twenty twenty four. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.040 But again, like throughout I mean the work that Drill does, 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:47.440 d smug in Australia, there's Skepticalscience dot org. There there's 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.760 also like Conscious Advertising Network, which is trying to get 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:56.280 advertising to be more responsible make sure it's not promoting misinformation. 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.200 So there are a lot of different efforts. The challenge 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.480 obviously is that we're what we're up against, right in 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:11.760 terms of the coordination and the very strategic algorithms that 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:16.359 are able to filter what we see and what we 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.679 what we have access to. So, I mean, these efforts 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.800 to kind of monitor and counter the disinformation and misinformation 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:29.440 are so important, and you know, it's really really hard work, right, 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.560 as we all know, like it's it's really and being attacked. 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.640 So it's it's challenging, challenging times for sure. 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:45.160 Yeah, the censorship industrial complex, that's what they call it. Okay, 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.879 So I want to have you define these terms disinformation, rebuttal, 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:54.760 and counterbalancing that come up in the context of lobbying 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:56.680 for climate policy. 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:03.560 So we characterize counter dirductionist lobbying as efforts in the 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:11.280 policy making processes to refute and resist climate obstructionism. So 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:18.320 this first term disinformation rebuttal refers to attempts to within 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:23.240 the policy process and within the lobbying to refute misinformation 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.520 on climate science or misinformation about the costs of specific 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.840 climate policies that's often a big one, right, or refute 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.080 information about the severity of climate risks. Right, There's a 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.720 lot of part of climate obstruction is saying, oh, it's 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:39.880 not that bad, we don't need to worry about it. 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:45.680 So this disinformation rebuttal phrase that we is about refuting 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:52.480 these obstructionist narratives in the policy process. The other term 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:58.760 is counterbalancing, which is more about actually another form of 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:07.600 counterpl structionist lobbying where actually refute the claims by pointing 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:14.720 out alternative benefits or reasons why that climate obstruction narrative 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.399 you know, in the policy process is it doesn't make sense. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.840 So for example, one example that I think is helpful 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.720 to understand both of these is, for example, in twenty 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.800 twenty three in the EU, there was effort to weaken 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:33.600 the ban on fossil fuel internal combustion automobiles by twenty 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.679 thirty five, and Germany as a country was advocating on 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.600 behalf of their auto industry, let's try to weaken this 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.600 because you know, it's going to be too costly and 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.000 we don't need it. So that disinformation or rebuttal was kind 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:53.240 of saying, actually, it'll be more expensive, right if we 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:55.879 don't do it because of these reasons there, and it 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:59.720 will there will be environmental impacts if we don't do it, right, 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.840 this kind of thing, and the counterbalancing is pointing out 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.160 if we weaken the band, that would hamper all kinds 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.520 of decarbonization plans that all these companies have across Europe, 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.000 that would undermine the trust in public policy and climate 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:19.000 policy and so like. So that's an example of those 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:24.440 two the tactics I guess of counter obstructionist lobbying. 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.960 You point to kind of localized mobilizations as a key 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.840 counter obstruction tactic and a pretty successful one and one 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:40.520 that can you know, inspire broader regional or even global 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.000 action too. And I wonder and I feel like that's 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.439 one of the things that is giving people like the 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:51.560 tiniest sliver of hope these days, is like seeing communities 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.600 mobilize and achieve things at the local level and then 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:57.600 kind of seeing that spread a little bit. So I'm 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:01.800 wondering if you could talk through the Bohol protests as 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:02.600 an example of that. 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:09.040 Yeah, So in the Philippines, Bohol Island province in Central 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:15.360 Philippines is an example where really local mobilization really expanded 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:21.720 into regional, broader anti coal policy. So what happened there 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:25.560 was that there was proposal for a new coal fired 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:32.480 power plant and there was a local mobilization a coalition 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:37.679 of citizens, business people, and members of the clergy. The 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:43.800 Catholic Church was also involved, all resisting saying we don't 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:48.160 want coal a new coal fired power plant here. And 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.440 they very strategically, you know, used social media. They had 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:57.359 a joint position paper that argued for the next you 0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:59.879 know why, it would be all kinds of negatives for 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:05.440 the and they had public events and they really were 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:11.160 successful and used kind of the local commitment to kind 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.359 of protecting what you love. That was their social media 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:18.080 campaign to protect our beautiful place and our space, but 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:25.000 connecting it with larger national and international campaigns and struggles. 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:27.720 And they were very effective and shifting kind of the 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:32.680 goals and frames by connecting the local with the global 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:37.840 in a powerful way. And it led to the government 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:43.159 prohibiting future coal based development and they really had a 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.160 very clear and coherent vision of a coal free future. 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.680 And it was quite quite a powerful example. And one 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:54.440 of our co authors on the chapter, Lawrence Delina, had 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:58.840 studied that specific case in quite detail, and so it 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:03.960 was it was a a powerful example of local mobilization. 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:06.800 And this is in the whole section in the chapter 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:13.879 about protests and campaigning and mobilization and I think there 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:18.480 are so many examples, and it is especially now when 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.040 you know there's so much at this high level, macro level. 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:30.200 The news is kind of saturated with big picture geopolitical highlights, right, 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.720 We're missing all of the resistance that is going on 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.240 all around the world in so many different ways. And 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:39.080 I think that, as you said, that is where people 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.040 get empowered, that's where people can feel hope, and there's 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:47.000 so much happening, and you know, this is where I 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.760 think there's This is where we need to and there's 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:55.920 so much opportunity for elevating these stories of resistance and 0:23:57.400 --> 0:24:01.399 demonstrating how mainstream it is. Right in such a distorted 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.400 landscape in that we're told, oh, people don't care about 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:08.840 climate anymore, it's off the agenda, and you know, but 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:12.840 really it's not. It's just the powerful interests are controlling 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.199 and limiting what we're seeing day to day, so it 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:17.480 feels like it's off the agenda. But then I know 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:19.960 that's I mean the work that you do as well, 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:21.639 and I know that was one of the messages also 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:26.119 in the Carbon Bros. Podcasts that you know, it's just 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:29.520 the loud people are making these claims, but they actually 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:34.720 don't represent the majority at all. They're just quite influential 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:37.119 and powerful, and they're taking up a lot of space. 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:41.960 But most people do want transformative climate action and do 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:45.119 want a better future right, and are working toward that 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:45.879 in different ways. 0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:51.280 Yeah, even the anti fascist protests are getting really suppressed, 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:56.000 both on social media and in the traditional media too. 0:24:56.680 --> 0:24:58.639 I'm curious for your thoughts on that. Like, I know, 0:24:58.920 --> 0:24:59.480 I know just. 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:03.679 From pertiononal experience, that the traditional media is very weird 0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:09.720 about covering protests like sort of seen as like not 0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:10.520 not a story. 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:14.720 And I feel like, actually, way too many. 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:17.800 Media outlets are more concerned about being accused of or 0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:23.840 seeming biased towards activists than they are about being perceived 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:29.239 as or being biased towards corporate or political interests. And 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:34.000 it really has shaped just how the public even understands 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:39.680 resistance and understands actually how common it is and how 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:42.880 many other people also care. There was actually in one 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:46.040 of the other chapters in the book, John Cook talked 0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:51.920 about how that actually is a form of obstruction and 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:55.040 of itself, that like when you reinforce the idea to 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:59.320 people that nobody else cares, it has a silencing effect 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:01.920 because people think right that like, oh well, I don't 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:03.679 want to I don't want to be the squeaky wheel. 0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:07.160 Nobody else really cares about this or whatever. Anyway, I'm 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:11.960 curious for your thoughts on how and whether better coverage 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:14.800 of these things or information about these things, either in 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:20.840 traditional media or in social media, could help to I don't. 0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:23.160 Know, spread them, or support them, or. 0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:26.679 Shift people thinking about, you know, what's going on and 0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:28.159 what can happen. 0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:34.800 I think that, as you mentioned, protests are often thought 0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:40.119 of as like fringe or these radical people standing out, 0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:43.119 and you know, we experienced that before I moved to 0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:48.920 Ireland in twenty twenty four. The campus protests right throughout 0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:56.080 the United States were suppressed and were vilified the protesters, 0:26:56.160 --> 0:26:58.840 and those of us who were supporting the protesters were 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:04.760 you know, of not doing our jobs, and so the 0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:09.760 silencing and that kind of underestimation of the mobilization that 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:13.760 people are doing and or want to do. But I 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:16.880 but at the same time, I think we're seeing now, 0:27:17.040 --> 0:27:20.439 you know, just this morning, what's happening in Nepal like 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:28.840 major resistance. Right We're at a point where there's you know, 0:27:28.920 --> 0:27:31.520 going to be more of this resistance because there's no 0:27:31.640 --> 0:27:34.119 other options, like you know, at what point you know? 0:27:34.640 --> 0:27:41.360 So I think there's I think the coverage of resistance 0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:47.080