1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy wester Up. 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Today we're bringing you the last episode in our season fourteen, Obstruction. 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: We were looking at this book from the Climate Social 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: Science Network that's pulled together all of the peer reviewed 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: research on climate obstruction globally. That book is called Climate 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: Obstruction a Global Assessment. There's a link in the show 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: notes to download a free copy of it if you'd 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: like it for a reference. I highly recommend you download 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: it and read it and keep all the footnotes links 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: to all the different studies. It's a super super handy reference. 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: Today the final episode maps to the final chapter in 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: that book, which is looking at one of the tactics 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: that works to combat obstruction. Last week we talked about litigation, 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: and this week we are talking about activism of various kinds. 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: To do that, I'm joined by Jenny Stephens at National 16 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: University of Ireland Manuth and Sharon Yadin from the University 17 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: of Haifa. Each of them walked me through a different 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: type of effective activism against obstruction, and I found both 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: of those conversations super super interesting. 20 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: I hope you do too. They're coming up after this 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 2: quick break. 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 3: I'm Jenny Stevens. I'm professor of Climate Justice at the 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 3: National University of Ireland in Manuth. 24 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: I actually wanted to ask you before we get into 25 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: some of the more detailed questions just about this chapter 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 2: in general, because it's one of the two chapters in 27 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: this book that actually look at some of the pushback 28 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: to obstruction and I guess I just want to ask you, 29 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: sort of broadly the role that activism plays in that 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: pushback and why it's effective. 31 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: Yes, I think one of the things that we did 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 3: in this chapter is really try to focus on how 33 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 3: important the resistance to climate obstructionism is and the kind 34 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 3: of revealing and expanding awareness, kind of the social exposure 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 3: peace is a big part of it, but also that 36 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 3: there's a lot of policy advocacy that's going on that's 37 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: also really important. And then campaigns and protests and and 38 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 3: you know, direct engagement with communities in mobilizing public concern 39 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: is another big part of it. So those are kind 40 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 3: of the three different areas that we looked at of 41 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 3: how we can and we are and people have been 42 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 3: for decades trying to resist and confront the denialism, the delay, 43 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 3: and then also the distraction. Right because I think a 44 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 3: lot of what we see is you know, putting up 45 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: other issues that are trying to just kind of distract 46 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 3: us from fossil fuel phase out or more transformative climate 47 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 3: policy that's urgently needed and the science has showed us 48 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 3: for so long that that it is needed. 49 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay, So there's this point that comes up in 50 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: the chapter that I thought was really interesting and important 51 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: to talk about, which is that you kind of make 52 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: this point that the research on climate obstruction and climate 53 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: activism needs to also be happening outside of universities because 54 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: of the academic capture problem on many university campuses. Can 55 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: you talk through some examples of what that looks like 56 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: and then also what the non university research looks like. 57 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's hard for people to acknowledge that there's any 58 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: credibility in the research that's happening outside of universities, in 59 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: part because of you know, the think tanks and all 60 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: of that stuff that have been involved in obstructionism too. So, yeah, 61 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: examples of what the fossil fuel capture looks like and 62 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: this sort of no fly zone of even researching fossil 63 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 2: fuel phase out and things like that, and then what 64 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: is the research that's happening outside of universities. 65 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 3: So I've been studying climate action and transformative change toward climate, 66 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 3: responding to climate crisis in academia for over thirty years. 67 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 3: And what I experienced myself is realizing how much of 68 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 3: the climate and energy research in academia is actually funded 69 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 3: by fossil fuel interests. Right. They actually Charles Koch back 70 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: in the seventies identified invest in universities because it can 71 00:04:54,360 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 3: legitimize this market fundamentalism, pro business, anti regulatory regime, and 72 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: universities are so powerful and legitimizing certain approaches, including fossil 73 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: fuel friendly technologies like carbon capture and storage and solar 74 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 3: gew engineering. And so my own experience in academia a 75 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 3: lot of engagement with people, mentors who I looked up to, 76 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 3: who then I started realizing are promoting fossil fuel climate 77 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 3: obstructionist talking points, you know, in their academic research. So 78 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 3: this is this is the idea of academic capture or 79 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 3: corporate capture of higher education. And as part of the 80 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: Climate Social Science Network, I was part of a group 81 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 3: that you know, kind of has exposed some of this 82 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 3: the degree to which fossil fuel interests have been investing 83 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: in higher education, particularly in the United States, in the UK, 84 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 3: in Australia and Canada for big fossil fuel countries, you know, 85 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 3: is much deeper than many of us recognize, and it's 86 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 3: been going on for decades. So it's deeply embedded within 87 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 3: the academic climate and energy research culture. And so this 88 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 3: is where you know, I started. Many of us have 89 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 3: started to notice, why aren't we doing research on how 90 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 3: to phase out fossil fuels in our universities? That should 91 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: be the number one priority, right, but it isn't because 92 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 3: of this capture. So I think what's been really really 93 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: important is, as you mentioned, the non academic research, right, 94 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: there's so many NGOs, investigative journalists like yourself and others 95 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 3: who are you know, digging in exposing greenwashing and delay tactics, 96 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 3: exposing carbon offsetting strategies and how those are not you know, 97 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: just delaying things and net zero claims and corporate interests 98 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 3: in climate policy. So there's NGOs around the world. Many 99 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 3: of them are international and collaborating, some are specific to 100 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 3: specific countries that are really trying to and have been 101 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 3: really really important in exposing and how fossil fuel interests 102 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 3: are so deep and in particular. I think some of 103 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 3: the really important work has not just been with science 104 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 3: and kind of exposing the corporate interest, but in climate finance, 105 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 3: and I think you know, organizations like Oil Change International, 106 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 3: they're banking on climate chaos. They've really just kind of 107 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 3: exposed in ways that no academic is doing with the 108 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 3: same rigor and focus and really, you know, really being 109 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: able to create kind of a whole structure for trying 110 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 3: to hold accountable year after year what's going on in 111 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 3: all of these different contexts. So I think it's been 112 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: that's where the non academic research is just so important 113 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: because academic research, although it's supposed it is supposed to 114 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 3: be independent and you know, free and academic to study 115 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 3: what we want in the universities, there actually are these 116 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 3: deep constraints because of funding. I've been told all kinds 117 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 3: of things, very condescending, like, oh, you're so smart, why 118 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 3: aren't you focusing on this, you know, this kind of thing. 119 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 3: You know, I have a science an engineering background, like 120 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 3: a lot of these people that we're talking about, and why. 121 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 4: Are you wasting it studying justice? Jenny exactly. 122 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 3: And this is where a lot of the people who 123 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 3: have control over the research agendas really don't have very 124 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: much social science or interest in understanding how to even 125 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 3: study power dynamics. Right, So this is where there's just 126 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: like a blinders if, like, oh, it's all technical this 127 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: and this and economics and the money, and it's just 128 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 3: about costs and technology and that's it. Everything else is 129 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: just wishy washy. And that's where it's so constrained all 130 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 3: the climate energy research and universities as well. Yeah, yeah, 131 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 3: so little in the social science and the well. 132 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 2: And I feel like that made its way into the 133 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: IPCC too, right, where like it was only in the 134 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: most recent assessment that we even had social scientists included. 135 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: But that's wild to me that It's like, how long 136 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: have people been saying, oh, this is like a you know, 137 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: an issue of political will and all of that stuff, 138 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: but we're not going to have social scientists in here 139 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 2: to talk about what creates or blocks political will. 140 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 4: I know, it's frustrating. 141 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 2: In the US, we're dealing with the second Trump administration 142 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: and a huge amount of suppression of climate science in 143 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 2: general and university research and scientists and all of that. 144 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if there's anything that's happened so far that 145 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: surprises you from a suppression stamp point. We're obviously seeing 146 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: like suppression of protest as well. I mean, you know, 147 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: it's all outrageous, but yeah, is there anything that that 148 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 2: like particularly surprises you as a suppression tactic. 149 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 3: I think what has surprised me the most is actually 150 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 3: the power and kind of contribution of the tech bros, right, 151 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 3: and how central they've been and I think AI and 152 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 3: promoting tech at all costs. I mean, I think the 153 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 3: tech companies have become major climate obstructionists. Right. They used 154 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: to have kind of sustainability climate but they've kind of 155 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 3: dropped a lot of that and they're now essentially getting 156 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 3: into the fossil fuel business because they need so much 157 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: energy for all the data centers and so they and 158 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 3: I think that's what the Trump administration and this new 159 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 3: era we're in, they are, you know, collaborating complicit in 160 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 3: ways that it's just so powerful. And I don't think 161 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: we even wreck you know, we're all coming to terms 162 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 3: with how much power they have. But I would say 163 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 3: that that is climate obstructionism, you know, but it isn't 164 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 3: often framed that way. We don't think of it that 165 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 3: way because it's climate is kind of off the agenda 166 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 3: for in many of these discussions. But that's exactly you know, 167 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 3: the most effective denial delay tactic is just don't talk 168 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: about it and just pretend it's not there and proceed 169 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 3: as if everything's fine and we can have all this 170 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: AI proliferation and data centers everywhere and increase our energy 171 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 3: demand for what. Like, it's not clear what AI is 172 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: offering in terms of the multiple the humanity is facing 173 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 3: right other than exacin no. 174 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: I know, Well, there's this whole weird talking point about 175 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: how AI is like just very vague with a lot 176 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: of conviction the AI is going to solve. 177 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 4: Climate change to like, Okay, I mean. 178 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: I get, I get that there are things that AI 179 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 2: can do efficiency wise to automate you know, energy efficiency 180 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 2: in certain processes. But then I feel like that's got 181 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: to be getting blown out of the water by the 182 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 2: extent to which they're just cramming it into everything and 183 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: creating huge energy needs and. 184 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 4: Data centers and all of that stuff. 185 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's it's a set of tools that 186 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 3: can be used for all kinds of things, but that 187 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that, yeah, you know, it's critical for all 188 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: kinds of things. And even in the universities, the narrative 189 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 3: of inevitability, like we have to use it, we all 190 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: have to get on board to teach our students, and 191 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 3: it's just I mean, for me, it's part of climate obstructionism. 192 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting to watch. 193 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So actually kind of related to the tech guys 194 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: because I feel like a part of what they've done 195 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: as well is take over the information ecosystem in this 196 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: way that I don't know, we almost kind of didn't 197 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: see coming. It's like everybody's been talking about social media 198 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: for a long time, but I don't know that people 199 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 2: understood the extent to which it was taking over the 200 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: role of news media. Like people talked about how it 201 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: was impacting the ad revenue model and you know, traffic 202 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: and this and that, but not necessarily like connecting the 203 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 2: dots to oh yeah, now it's becoming the way that 204 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: people get information. 205 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 4: And these guys have total control over it, which it's 206 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 4: you know, a smart move if you really hate the 207 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 4: media and you don't want people like prying into your business. 208 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 4: So anyway, there was this line in this chapter that 209 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 4: I'm going to read because I want to have you 210 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 4: talk about it a little bit. 211 00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: I thought it was. 212 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: It was really interesting. So those media actors must also 213 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: navigate a public arena where authenticity or how easy it 214 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: is to believe information is increasingly valued over facticity the 215 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: degree to which the claims made can be verified. So 216 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: you mentioned a couple of countermeasures that are combating that issue, 217 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: especially around monitoring, and I'd love to have you talk 218 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: about those, And I also am curious for your take 219 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: on this attempt to label those kinds of measures as censorship, 220 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: which has been an interesting and kind of effective strategy. 221 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: I would say as well, So, yeah, what's working? And 222 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: then what's your response to the idea that any attempt 223 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: to I guess prioritize more factual information over not so 224 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: factual information gets branded as censorship. 225 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think the role of the media in 226 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 3: kind of countering the misinformation right is, I mean, is 227 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 3: so important. And I think there are these several you know, 228 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 3: we mentioned several of these kind of global coalitions of 229 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: actors trying to provide monitoring and then counter claims right 230 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 3: to hold accountable media representations that may not be accurate. 231 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: So I think, you know, and there's there's many different 232 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 3: ways that people are trying to do this, and I 233 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 3: think one really interesting one is the Climate Action against Disinformation, 234 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: which is a global coalition that is, you know, really 235 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 3: trying to combat the spread of misinformation, particularly on tech platforms. 236 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 3: And you know, I think that is just so important 237 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: in terms of trying to hold accountable Google x Meta, 238 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 3: like these big platforms that as we all know, have 239 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: so much power in terms of influencing what we see, 240 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 3: what we see, right, and what we don't see, and 241 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: what we learn about and what we don't learn about. 242 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 3: So I think these kinds of efforts are just so important, 243 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 3: and you know, and and but they're under attack, as 244 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 3: you mentioned, right, with being claims of of censoring the 245 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 3: media or also you know, being being attacked or losing 246 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: their funding. Right. I think that the Climate Nexus is 247 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 3: one of these organizations that closed in twenty twenty four. 248 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 3: But again, like throughout I mean the work that Drill does, 249 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 3: d smug in Australia, there's Skepticalscience dot org. There there's 250 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: also like Conscious Advertising Network, which is trying to get 251 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: advertising to be more responsible make sure it's not promoting misinformation. 252 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 3: So there are a lot of different efforts. The challenge 253 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 3: obviously is that we're what we're up against, right in 254 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: terms of the coordination and the very strategic algorithms that 255 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 3: are able to filter what we see and what we 256 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 3: what we have access to. So, I mean, these efforts 257 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 3: to kind of monitor and counter the disinformation and misinformation 258 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 3: are so important, and you know, it's really really hard work, right, 259 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 3: as we all know, like it's it's really and being attacked. 260 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 3: So it's it's challenging, challenging times for sure. 261 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, the censorship industrial complex, that's what they call it. Okay, 262 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 2: So I want to have you define these terms disinformation, rebuttal, 263 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: and counterbalancing that come up in the context of lobbying 264 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 2: for climate policy. 265 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 3: So we characterize counter dirductionist lobbying as efforts in the 266 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 3: policy making processes to refute and resist climate obstructionism. So 267 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 3: this first term disinformation rebuttal refers to attempts to within 268 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 3: the policy process and within the lobbying to refute misinformation 269 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 3: on climate science or misinformation about the costs of specific 270 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 3: climate policies that's often a big one, right, or refute 271 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 3: information about the severity of climate risks. Right, There's a 272 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 3: lot of part of climate obstruction is saying, oh, it's 273 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 3: not that bad, we don't need to worry about it. 274 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 3: So this disinformation rebuttal phrase that we is about refuting 275 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: these obstructionist narratives in the policy process. The other term 276 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: is counterbalancing, which is more about actually another form of 277 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 3: counterpl structionist lobbying where actually refute the claims by pointing 278 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 3: out alternative benefits or reasons why that climate obstruction narrative 279 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 3: you know, in the policy process is it doesn't make sense. 280 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 3: So for example, one example that I think is helpful 281 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 3: to understand both of these is, for example, in twenty 282 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: twenty three in the EU, there was effort to weaken 283 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: the ban on fossil fuel internal combustion automobiles by twenty 284 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 3: thirty five, and Germany as a country was advocating on 285 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 3: behalf of their auto industry, let's try to weaken this 286 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 3: because you know, it's going to be too costly and 287 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 3: we don't need it. So that disinformation or rebuttal was kind 288 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 3: of saying, actually, it'll be more expensive, right if we 289 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 3: don't do it because of these reasons there, and it 290 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 3: will there will be environmental impacts if we don't do it, right, 291 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 3: this kind of thing, and the counterbalancing is pointing out 292 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 3: if we weaken the band, that would hamper all kinds 293 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: of decarbonization plans that all these companies have across Europe, 294 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 3: that would undermine the trust in public policy and climate 295 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: policy and so like. So that's an example of those 296 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 3: two the tactics I guess of counter obstructionist lobbying. 297 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: You point to kind of localized mobilizations as a key 298 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: counter obstruction tactic and a pretty successful one and one 299 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: that can you know, inspire broader regional or even global 300 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: action too. And I wonder and I feel like that's 301 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 2: one of the things that is giving people like the 302 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: tiniest sliver of hope these days, is like seeing communities 303 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 2: mobilize and achieve things at the local level and then 304 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: kind of seeing that spread a little bit. So I'm 305 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: wondering if you could talk through the Bohol protests as 306 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: an example of that. 307 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, So in the Philippines, Bohol Island province in Central 308 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 3: Philippines is an example where really local mobilization really expanded 309 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 3: into regional, broader anti coal policy. So what happened there 310 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: was that there was proposal for a new coal fired 311 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 3: power plant and there was a local mobilization a coalition 312 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 3: of citizens, business people, and members of the clergy. The 313 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 3: Catholic Church was also involved, all resisting saying we don't 314 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: want coal a new coal fired power plant here. And 315 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 3: they very strategically, you know, used social media. They had 316 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 3: a joint position paper that argued for the next you 317 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 3: know why, it would be all kinds of negatives for 318 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 3: the and they had public events and they really were 319 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 3: successful and used kind of the local commitment to kind 320 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: of protecting what you love. That was their social media 321 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 3: campaign to protect our beautiful place and our space, but 322 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 3: connecting it with larger national and international campaigns and struggles. 323 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: And they were very effective and shifting kind of the 324 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 3: goals and frames by connecting the local with the global 325 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: in a powerful way. And it led to the government 326 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 3: prohibiting future coal based development and they really had a 327 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 3: very clear and coherent vision of a coal free future. 328 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 3: And it was quite quite a powerful example. And one 329 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 3: of our co authors on the chapter, Lawrence Delina, had 330 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 3: studied that specific case in quite detail, and so it 331 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 3: was it was a a powerful example of local mobilization. 332 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 3: And this is in the whole section in the chapter 333 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 3: about protests and campaigning and mobilization and I think there 334 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 3: are so many examples, and it is especially now when 335 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: you know there's so much at this high level, macro level. 336 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 3: The news is kind of saturated with big picture geopolitical highlights, right, 337 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 3: We're missing all of the resistance that is going on 338 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 3: all around the world in so many different ways. And 339 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 3: I think that, as you said, that is where people 340 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 3: get empowered, that's where people can feel hope, and there's 341 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 3: so much happening, and you know, this is where I 342 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 3: think there's This is where we need to and there's 343 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 3: so much opportunity for elevating these stories of resistance and 344 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 3: demonstrating how mainstream it is. Right in such a distorted 345 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 3: landscape in that we're told, oh, people don't care about 346 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 3: climate anymore, it's off the agenda, and you know, but 347 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 3: really it's not. It's just the powerful interests are controlling 348 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 3: and limiting what we're seeing day to day, so it 349 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 3: feels like it's off the agenda. But then I know 350 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 3: that's I mean the work that you do as well, 351 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 3: and I know that was one of the messages also 352 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 3: in the Carbon Bros. Podcasts that you know, it's just 353 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 3: the loud people are making these claims, but they actually 354 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 3: don't represent the majority at all. They're just quite influential 355 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 3: and powerful, and they're taking up a lot of space. 356 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 3: But most people do want transformative climate action and do 357 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 3: want a better future right, and are working toward that 358 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: in different ways. 359 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, even the anti fascist protests are getting really suppressed, 360 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 2: both on social media and in the traditional media too. 361 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 4: I'm curious for your thoughts on that. Like, I know, 362 00:24:58,920 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 4: I know just. 363 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 2: From pertiononal experience, that the traditional media is very weird 364 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: about covering protests like sort of seen as like not 365 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 2: not a story. 366 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 4: And I feel like, actually, way too many. 367 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: Media outlets are more concerned about being accused of or 368 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: seeming biased towards activists than they are about being perceived 369 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:29,239 Speaker 2: as or being biased towards corporate or political interests. And 370 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: it really has shaped just how the public even understands 371 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 2: resistance and understands actually how common it is and how 372 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 2: many other people also care. There was actually in one 373 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: of the other chapters in the book, John Cook talked 374 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 2: about how that actually is a form of obstruction and 375 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: of itself, that like when you reinforce the idea to 376 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: people that nobody else cares, it has a silencing effect 377 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 2: because people think right that like, oh well, I don't 378 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 2: want to I don't want to be the squeaky wheel. 379 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 2: Nobody else really cares about this or whatever. Anyway, I'm 380 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: curious for your thoughts on how and whether better coverage 381 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: of these things or information about these things, either in 382 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 2: traditional media or in social media, could help to I don't. 383 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 4: Know, spread them, or support them, or. 384 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: Shift people thinking about, you know, what's going on and 385 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 2: what can happen. 386 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 3: I think that, as you mentioned, protests are often thought 387 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 3: of as like fringe or these radical people standing out, 388 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 3: and you know, we experienced that before I moved to 389 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 3: Ireland in twenty twenty four. The campus protests right throughout 390 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: the United States were suppressed and were vilified the protesters, 391 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 3: and those of us who were supporting the protesters were 392 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 3: you know, of not doing our jobs, and so the 393 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 3: silencing and that kind of underestimation of the mobilization that 394 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: people are doing and or want to do. But I 395 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 3: but at the same time, I think we're seeing now, 396 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 3: you know, just this morning, what's happening in Nepal like 397 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 3: major resistance. Right We're at a point where there's you know, 398 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 3: going to be more of this resistance because there's no 399 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 3: other options, like you know, at what point you know? 400 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 3: So I think there's I think the coverage of resistance 401 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 3: and the coverage of protests and campaigning and local mobilization 402 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 3: is restricted, definitely, and there's often an underestimation right of 403 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 3: protest numbers like how many people showed up here or there? 404 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 3: And I've seen that here also in the Irish media 405 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 3: with protests. And this is where obviously in the United 406 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 3: States it's very scary because protesting is being increasingly outlawed right, 407 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 3: like it's it's you really risk being arrested or or 408 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 3: work or violence. So I think the the upholding the 409 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 3: right to protest right and the is so important and 410 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 3: being involved in multiple different ways, right, There's so many 411 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 3: ways that all of us as citizens can engage and 412 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 3: in our professionally and then in our personal capacity within 413 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: our communities at different scales, and I think that is 414 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 3: what people are eager for confirmation of right that yes, 415 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 3: you can connect with your community and get involved and 416 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 3: there is a lot happening. So I think those those 417 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 3: messages are are really valuable right now. But as you said, 418 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 3: constrained because of the larger powerful interests that are trying 419 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 3: to control a lot of what happens and also what 420 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 3: we hear about. 421 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: The climate justice movement has gone through a few a 422 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: few like waves where you know, when when the Green 423 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: New Deal was being talked about, there was this push 424 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: for like, oh yeah, climate connects to human rights and 425 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: social justice and inequality and war and even childcare and 426 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: all of these other things. 427 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 4: Right, and there was enormous pushback. 428 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: I'm like, of course there was like the Fox News pushback, 429 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 2: but like within the climate movement, there was huge pushback 430 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: in terms of this like stay in your lane, you know, 431 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: why are you connecting climate all these other things? Like 432 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: we have a hard enough time getting people to you know, 433 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 2: embrace energy transition, never mind all these other things. 434 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 4: But I do feel like, I don't know, I feel 435 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 4: like actually the climate. 436 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: Movements resistant, well, some people within the climate it's resistance 437 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 2: to connecting the climate issue to broader, you know, structural 438 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 2: issues around power and justice and all of these things. 439 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: Has made it very easy for the right when they're 440 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: looking for escapegoat to pin the ills of late stage 441 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: capitalism on. That's not the capitalists, to be like, oh, 442 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: it's the climate elitist and it's this, and it's that 443 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 2: you know, it's like, yeah, I don't know. I just 444 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: people are like, oh, you know, how do we connect 445 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: to populism? 446 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 4: And it's like, well, actually. 447 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've written about and I've coined this term climate isolationism. 448 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 3: Oh interesting, where we try to keep the climate in 449 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 3: the lane. Yeah. 450 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 2: Like and it's a little like oh if like let's 451 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: just talk about solar panels and batteries and then no 452 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: one will be mad. 453 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 4: Like, first of all, they are still mad. And secondly, 454 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 4: you have now. 455 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 2: Lost like your entire any kind of coalition that would 456 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: have helped you, you know, win on any of these issues. 457 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 4: You're ever going to win is just that it's too small, no. 458 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 3: And the focus on greenhouse gas emission reductions and decarbonization 459 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: is all still so technical too. It's not what people 460 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 3: wake up and them running worried about. Right, So we've 461 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 3: missed these opportunities in a big way. And I think, 462 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 3: you know, within the climate justice movement, a lot of 463 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 3: people have been saying the climate crisis is a symptom. 464 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 3: It's not a cause, right, it's not the thing, it's 465 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 3: not a technical problem that needs to fix. It's actually 466 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 3: a symptom of this larger, extractive exploitative system that is 467 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 3: coming to the four of how detrimental and destructive it 468 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 3: is both for the environment and for people and communities 469 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 3: and families and right, so we are in a new phase, 470 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 3: I think with climate justice because it is more obvious, 471 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: especially with the tech bros and with the authoritarian games, 472 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 3: which are all showing off their petrovasculinity. And it's so blatant, 473 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 3: right that this is counter to plauser for everyone. So 474 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 3: I think that's where climate justice, or at least the 475 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 3: framing that I use to talk about climate justice and 476 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: the climate justice movement, and I mean it's you know, 477 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: trans rights, it's connecting people and the humanization of people 478 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 3: with what people need with a transformative change. And I 479 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 3: think it's and again this is what you know, many 480 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 3: of our those of us who've been working on this 481 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 3: for decades, see that the mainstream techno fix approaches are 482 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 3: never going to be sufficient or adequate, right, Like, we 483 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 3: need the bigger transformative change and that comes with change 484 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 3: in economic power, political power, and redistributing things. And that 485 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 3: gets into stemach structural changes, which are a lot harder 486 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 3: to do research on, harder to know, you know, how 487 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 3: to promote but I think it's coming to the fore 488 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 3: and people are realizing that in many more ways. So 489 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 3: that's why I think these larger coalitions of climate justice 490 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 3: connecting with a lot of other social movements around the world, 491 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 3: it is really really powerful and gives me inspiration. 492 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 5: Yeah. 493 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: I mean people keep saying like, oh, the reason people 494 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: are voting for authoritarianism is because they just they're voting 495 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: for change. They're not necessarily like pro authoritarianism. They just 496 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 2: like don't want to vote for the politician that's just 497 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 2: kind of offering the status quo. And I'm like, well, 498 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 2: we have like a pretty good change story, guys, why 499 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: aren't we It's a lot better than fascism. 500 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 3: But it's been it's been suppressed, right, it hasn't been 501 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 3: allowed to come through lot of the mainstream political discourse. 502 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 3: But I think it's coming. 503 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 4: It's bubbling up. All right. 504 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 3: That's good. Good. 505 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 4: We'll end on that note of optimism. 506 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 3: Thank you. 507 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 5: I'm doctor Sharon Yedin and I'm a senior lecturer of 508 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 5: law and regulation and I'm very interested in climate policy 509 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 5: and I'm also a CSSN scholar researching climate obstruction. 510 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 4: Can I have you start by defining both the term 511 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 4: social license and the term social exposure for me. 512 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 5: Sure well, Companies often need at least two types of 513 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 5: licenses to operate, so there's a legal one and also 514 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 5: a social So the legal license allows them to pollute 515 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 5: or do a certain amount or sell a certain product 516 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 5: under specific terms. But interestingly, firms also often need social 517 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 5: recognition or little legitimacy from stakeholders in order to exist. 518 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 5: And these stakeholders include residents or consumers, investors, the media, 519 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 5: as well as the public at large. So this can 520 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 5: be also a lot of other groups like suppliers and 521 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 5: creditors or NGOs, and these stakeholders can object to a 522 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 5: company or an industry is operations in a way that 523 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 5: can create problems for that industry and in terms of 524 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 5: financial harm. So that's the social license. Regarding the social exposure, 525 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 5: it refers to actions from civil society or even governments 526 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 5: that expose wrongdoing by corporations, for example, climate obstructive actions 527 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 5: like lobbying or litigating against clean energy bills, especially when 528 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 5: they're doing it based on disinformation. And also social exposure 529 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 5: is about highlighting greenwashing tactics that firms use, or sometimes 530 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 5: we call it even climate washing in the context of 531 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 5: climate change, and social exposure can be carried out through 532 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 5: naming and shaming, which involves publication of the information as 533 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 5: well as condemnation, and it can also be carried out 534 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 5: through media coverage and other means. And it also aims 535 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 5: to spend the public's awareness of climate obstruction and sometimes 536 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 5: nudge stakeholders to act. So basically, a social exposure aims 537 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 5: to revoke a company or an institution's social license, and 538 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 5: it can do so, for example, through research in academia, 539 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 5: and there's for example, there's a research uncovering shifts in 540 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 5: narrative that the fossil fuel industry uses, like climate denial, 541 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 5: the move from climate denial to climate delay. So that 542 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 5: means that there's a shift from arguing that the science 543 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 5: is wrong to arguing that no response is needed or 544 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 5: urgently needed on a policy level. 545 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 4: And I know you mentioned naming and shaming there and. 546 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 2: This comes up in the chapter as well, but you've 547 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 2: also written exceptedly about it, including this new book on 548 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 2: how regulators in particular can get involved in shaming. And 549 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 2: i'd love to have you talked a little bit about 550 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 2: what that looks like, What does it look like when 551 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 2: it's legislative bodies or regulators that are doing the naming 552 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 2: and shaming. 553 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, well maybe the shaming In general, it can be 554 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 5: a governance tactic. It can also be a regulatory tactic tactic, 555 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 5: and it leverages the shamed entity social license I mentioned earlier. 556 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 5: So it's a form of social exposure and it aims 557 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 5: to resist an organization or entities efforts to appear as 558 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 5: something that they are not, for example, social or environment 559 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 5: environmentally responsible, or to expose their efforts to hide something illegal, immoral, 560 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 5: or unethical that they're doing so. In the context of 561 00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 5: climate obstruction, both civil society and government actors can expose individuals, organizations, 562 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 5: and even countries for their actions, omissions, or decisions that 563 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 5: obstruct climate policy or may impede climate action. And these 564 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 5: tactic targets firms, corporate executives, and even policy makers engaging 565 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 5: in climate washing that I mentioned earlier also anti climate 566 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 5: litigation or anti climate organizational policies, and the goal is 567 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 5: to hold them accountable and deter ongoing or future climate obstruction. Importantly, 568 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 5: shaming involves a moral message exposing the deceitful nature of 569 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 5: climate obstructionists, usually naming specific people or entities. So this 570 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 5: is the naming part in the naming and shaming, and 571 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 5: the idea is to motivate action to counter these obstruction efforts, 572 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 5: not really causing feelings of shame, especially when we are 573 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 5: targeting entities or companies. And so this is basically the 574 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 5: mechanism in my book Fighting Climate Change Through Shaming, I 575 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 5: argue that regulators should use shaming tactics in addition to 576 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 5: their more traditional tactics, which often do not achieve the 577 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 5: desired fact. And I suggest that they convey what is 578 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 5: oftentimes perceived as credible information to the public corporate unharmful 579 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 5: corporate behavior that is contributing to climate change, with the 580 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 5: aim of inducing corporations to comply with climate laws, rules, regulation, 581 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 5: but also to adopt voluntary climate norms. Because we often 582 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 5: lack climate laws and rules, et cetera, so we need 583 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 5: to compliment that with with voluntary no norms as well. 584 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 5: And the idea of regulatory climate chaming is that companies 585 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 5: that wish to avoid being named or presented as contributing 586 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 5: to climate change will adjust their actions so to refrain 587 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 5: from reputational damage that may translate into financial damages. 588 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 2: M and to maintain that social license that you talked about, Right, 589 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 2: we definitely see this get turned around in the opposite 590 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 2: direction sometimes too, So I'm curious for your thoughts on 591 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 2: that that, Like, how does this work when, for example, 592 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: it gets weaponized against climate activists. I know, I was 593 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 2: just talking to a group of people. They're like professional 594 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 2: winter sports athletes and they work on climate staff, and 595 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 2: they were saying that, you know, the number one problem 596 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 2: they have and that, especially when when they're trying to 597 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: get other athletes to work with them, is that as 598 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 2: soon as they say anything online, they get people saying, well, 599 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,959 Speaker 2: if you care about climate change, then you shouldn't be, 600 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 2: you know, flying around the world snowboarding for example, if 601 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 2: they're like as pro snowboarder or whatever. 602 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 4: So yeah, and I know that this does. 603 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 2: Have some impact with very visible climate activists now maybe 604 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 2: individually have a large carbon footprint that can dissuade people 605 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 2: from trusting in them too. So yeah, I'm just curious 606 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 2: about your thoughts on that, like how it gets weaponized 607 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 2: in the other direction. 608 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 5: Well, that's a good point. I think that if we 609 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 5: open the door to shaming and we become the shamers, 610 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,320 Speaker 5: we definitely might might end up as targets of shaming, 611 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 5: and in the context of climate change, we need to 612 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 5: consider definitely consider the industry's vast resources to fight back 613 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 5: and restore their reputation or work really hard or on 614 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 5: their own building their own credibility even before the shaming 615 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 5: occurs and highlighting the let's call them up opponents agendas 616 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 5: the NGOs, academia even media to hurt the other person's 617 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 5: credibility or the other organization, and this may also create 618 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 5: a cycle of shaming and promote shaming or a cancel 619 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 5: car culture, which can be toxic for us as a society, 620 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,439 Speaker 5: so we need to be careful of that. However, many 621 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 5: many shamers or those taking part in the shaming process 622 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 5: by responding to it for example through the investment campaigns, 623 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 5: remain anonymous and can't be shamed back, so in the 624 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 5: age of social media, etcetera, this is very common a situation. However, 625 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 5: I do think that when that happens to NGOs or 626 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 5: a media platform for example, they need to highlight the 627 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 5: significant difference in scale because most of the time the 628 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 5: industry is put much more more than them, but more importantly, 629 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,320 Speaker 5: they engage in greenwashing on a much larger larger scale 630 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 5: and operate behind the scenes to impede climate law and regulation. 631 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 5: And that's that's that's what the message should be. 632 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: I think that's super interesting. 633 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 4: Okay, in at least in the US in the past, 634 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,919 Speaker 4: you're maybe a little bit more. But I would say 635 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 4: even in some of in the UK and some of 636 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 4: Europe too, it does seem like companies are I don't know, 637 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 4: they almost seem emboldened and like they're responding less to 638 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 4: particularly public naming, Like they almost seem to be taking 639 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 4: this stance of yeah, whatever, we're oil companies. So yeah, 640 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 4: I'm wondering what you think of that, and what regulators 641 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 4: can do in response to these entities that sometimes seem 642 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 4: you know, shameless. 643 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 5: Right. Well, I think if we'll do the efficacy or 644 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 5: the effectiveness of regulatory shaming, then we do have a problem. 645 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 5: I think we do need to try and focus on 646 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 5: improving these let's call them soft law tools. If we 647 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 5: have a problem, we need to think about why that 648 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 5: is and what we can do about it. Because this tool, 649 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 5: as someone who've researched it a lot and I'm very 650 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 5: interested in it, I think it's too valuable to lose. 651 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 5: If we look at climate law, climate regulation, even climate governance, 652 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 5: it's not doing so well. So international agreements are very 653 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 5: weak and the Paris Agreement goals are not being met. 654 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,720 Speaker 5: And as we all know, global temperatures keep on rising 655 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 5: and extreme weather events are happening all over the globe. 656 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 5: And when we look at climate laws and regulations in 657 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 5: various jurisdictions, they are insufficient and they're applied very loosely 658 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,720 Speaker 5: if they exist at all. So formal legal and regulatory tools, 659 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 5: the Harlow tools, don't seem to do their job very well. 660 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 5: So I think it's important to harness public opinion when 661 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 5: we can and the public resources, which is the public's 662 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 5: ability to put pressure on firms and to expose facts 663 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 5: versus misinformation, disinformation and greenwashing, and highlight obstructive or manipulative 664 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 5: corporate behavior. Each time companies want to influence narratives, public 665 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 5: perceptions and therefore policy, we should expose that. I think 666 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 5: we shouldn't give up so, and of course combines softlaw 667 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 5: with hard low tools. But if we can't use shaming, 668 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 5: then it would be so easy, too easy to influence 669 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:59,240 Speaker 5: people's perception, perceptions and promote false idea about climate change. 670 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 5: And it's implies. So I think we need to try 671 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 5: and encounter that by pointing the finger towards responsible entities 672 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,400 Speaker 5: and their manipulative tactics. 673 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 2: Can I have you actually share an example of an 674 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 2: effective shaming campaign or move or I don't know, just 675 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 2: like an example of how this works when it works, 676 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 2: so that people have a sense of it. 677 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 5: Sure, there's a research, there's an important research in it's 678 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,600 Speaker 5: outside of the climate change field, but it's closely related 679 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 5: because it concerns public health. And the agency that is 680 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 5: responsible for Occupational Safety OSHA use this tactic, this regulation 681 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:52,320 Speaker 5: by shaming tactic for several years, and it used social 682 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 5: media Twitter now x to a name and shame employers 683 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 5: that were involved with the injuries or deaths incidents in 684 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 5: their workplace, and the agency would post facts as well 685 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 5: as very harsh condemning texts saying that this employer doesn't 686 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:21,360 Speaker 5: respect its employees' health and wellbeing and it prioritizeses the 687 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 5: company's incomes rather than the employee's safety gear, et cetera. 688 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,319 Speaker 5: And so, of course they had a major backlash from 689 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,320 Speaker 5: the industry, but this is something that research has shown 690 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:41,400 Speaker 5: that is very effective. In fact, one press release about 691 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 5: this was also accompanied with press releases. One press release 692 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 5: by Ocean Naming and Shaming Employers was equivalent to two 693 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 5: hundred physical inspections in terms of the deturns that it 694 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:06,440 Speaker 5: caused in the industry. So this really highlights the effectiveness 695 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 5: as well as the resources that we can save by 696 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 5: just using communication and words and texts and narratives and 697 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:24,280 Speaker 5: social media and we don't have to rely so heavily 698 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 5: on agencies budget, which is not always so great. 699 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,720 Speaker 2: That's fascinating, but such a good example. I remember seeing 700 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,400 Speaker 2: those things and it did work really, really well. Okay, 701 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 2: So towards the end of the chapter you talk about 702 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,879 Speaker 2: assessing the effectiveness of efforts to resist climate obstruction. Why 703 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,840 Speaker 2: do you think it's so hard to sort of assess 704 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,840 Speaker 2: the effectiveness? And related to that, I do feel like 705 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 2: people are really quick after two years or five years 706 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 2: or whatever it is, be like, oh, this tactic doesn't work, 707 00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 2: and kind of try to move on to something else. 708 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 2: And I'm curious for your thoughts on that, because I 709 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 2: do think that the the climate movement tends to suffer 710 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,280 Speaker 2: from like magpie syndrome. You know, the next shiny object 711 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,120 Speaker 2: is always attracting attention, So yeah, I'm curious when you 712 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,880 Speaker 2: think about it, why is it hard to measure effectiveness 713 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,359 Speaker 2: and why is there such a tendency to kind of 714 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,760 Speaker 2: throw out tactics so quickly within the climate space. 715 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 5: Well, I think we're quite desperate to find the right tool. So, 716 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,240 Speaker 5: as I discussed earlier, we really don't have that many 717 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 5: effective tools to tackle these problems. While the corporations have 718 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 5: vast resources. But climate obstruction is it's a complicated issue 719 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:52,279 Speaker 5: and it's hard to assess its effectiveness, I think because 720 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:57,480 Speaker 5: it's happening in many forms and many jurisdictions. The I mean, 721 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 5: first of all, the climate obstruction firts by multiple actors 722 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 5: and and and these actors are very motivated to start 723 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:14,239 Speaker 5: obstruct climate policies. And this makes the problem very complex, 724 00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:20,160 Speaker 5: and it's often hidden from public eye, so it's difficult 725 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 5: to fight what we don't know that exists and where 726 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,680 Speaker 5: and how it takes place. At the same time, when 727 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 5: when people are trying to counteract it, it's it's really 728 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 5: hard to track it because it's happening on so many levels, 729 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:44,480 Speaker 5: from just regular people to companies and NGOs. There are 730 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 5: that are trying to monitor monitor the web for this 731 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:57,040 Speaker 5: information for example, and even governments or international organizations. It's happening, 732 00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 5: I think, on too many levels and too many arenas. 733 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,840 Speaker 5: And as you mentioned, it's very dynamic, it keeps changing, 734 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,640 Speaker 5: so it's very hard to track its effectiveness. While at 735 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,760 Speaker 5: the same time, as I mentioned earlier, it's it's hard 736 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:18,520 Speaker 5: to see results and to measure the results. How do 737 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 5: I know that lobbying efforts and litigation efforts have reduced 738 00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 5: as a result of specific action from trying to fight 739 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 5: climate obstruction. So trying to resist climate obstruction, it's very 740 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,319 Speaker 5: hard to put the finger on the right tactic or 741 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:44,000 Speaker 5: person or initiative, and so as it's complicated to monitor 742 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:49,799 Speaker 5: climate obstruction, it's also complicated from a policy or research 743 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,400 Speaker 5: or point of view to measure its effectiveness. 744 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:54,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. 745 00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,279 Speaker 2: I do feel like probably because of the resource thing 746 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,320 Speaker 2: that you know, the industry can be using tactics at once, 747 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 2: and a lot of times those who are pushing for 748 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,279 Speaker 2: climate policy have to just by virtue of time and 749 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,879 Speaker 2: money and energy, focus on one or two at a time. 750 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 5: It's hard to keep track and to identify these tactics 751 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 5: in real time. 752 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 2: And to respond when they shift to Like I see 753 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,280 Speaker 2: this happen a lot where just about the time climate 754 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,399 Speaker 2: campaigners will figure out how to respond to one thing, 755 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,400 Speaker 2: the industry will sort of stop using that and shift 756 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:32,440 Speaker 2: to something else. 757 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 3: So it's hard to hard to keep up. 758 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so we talked about naming and shaming a fair bit, 759 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,080 Speaker 2: But is there anything else that you want to make 760 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,880 Speaker 2: sure people understand about how this works. I know you 761 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 2: wrote a whole book about it, so I'm sure you 762 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:49,959 Speaker 2: could talk for. 763 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,480 Speaker 4: A long time, But what are any other kind of 764 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:53,360 Speaker 4: key things. 765 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,400 Speaker 2: That we didn't talk about that people should know about 766 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 2: how this works. 767 00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,560 Speaker 5: Sure, I'm happy to share some the insights from my 768 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:08,480 Speaker 5: book and my latest articles. So I mostly discuss regulatory 769 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,800 Speaker 5: climate chaming, and the idea is that companies that wish 770 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 5: to avoid being named or will adjust directions to refrain 771 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:23,040 Speaker 5: from reputational damage. So some of the schemes discussed in 772 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,920 Speaker 5: discussed in my book include, for example, implementing carbon rating 773 00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:32,840 Speaker 5: and labeled labeling systems for products and services, And this 774 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:38,720 Speaker 5: is something we're starting to see sometimes from private organizations, 775 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,680 Speaker 5: but I think that policy makers should also develop these tools. 776 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 5: Another type of scheme is publicizing regulatory rankings and blacklists 777 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,439 Speaker 5: of oil and gas companies or other companies that are 778 00:54:54,840 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 5: also contributing to climate change, and this would be according 779 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 5: to indicators of their level of contribution. We can also 780 00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:09,799 Speaker 5: think about publicizing the details of climate litigation cases and 781 00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:16,080 Speaker 5: enforcement actions that are brought against companies, posting condemnatory messages 782 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:20,440 Speaker 5: on social media like OSHA. And also we can think 783 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,440 Speaker 5: about the opposite of naming and chaming, maybe naming and 784 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:31,560 Speaker 5: faming just by lauding firms that are voluntarily reducing greenhouse 785 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,960 Speaker 5: guest emissions and are adopting climate friendly practices. So it's 786 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,799 Speaker 5: interesting to think about schaming more broadly and to think 787 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 5: about various communication tactics. And what's interesting about regulatory climate 788 00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 5: shaming is that many people are very much interested in 789 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 5: someone telling them how they can help in this climate crisis, 790 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,480 Speaker 5: what they can do, And there are a lot of 791 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,319 Speaker 5: informational gaps, as we discussed earlier, and people don't have 792 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:10,080 Speaker 5: enough information on who is responsible for the climate crisis 793 00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,960 Speaker 5: and what to do about it. So I think it's 794 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:18,040 Speaker 5: important that regulators fill this gap by capturing the public's attention, 795 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:24,480 Speaker 5: especially with new and important information like climate obstruction. And 796 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,440 Speaker 5: I found that climate changing is especially effective when it 797 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:34,240 Speaker 5: points to corporate deceit or intentional harms like climate denial 798 00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:39,840 Speaker 5: and climate washing, and when the information revealed is surprising. 799 00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 4: Super interesting and very helpful. Thank you, Thank you so much. 800 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,200 Speaker 2: This is really this is super interesting