1 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: If the US were to seriously tackle the racial wealth 2 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: gap and all the injustices past and present that have 3 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: led to today's economic inequalities, it might not actually start 4 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: with preparations, but with something much simpler, a full reckoning 5 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: of our history the truth. Truth commissions can be the 6 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: starting point for much broader national reform and a national 7 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: effort to deal with the enduring legacies of past violence 8 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: and current violence. Kerry Wiggham is a professor at Binghamton 9 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: University's Institute for Genocide and Mass Atrocity Prevention. He also 10 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: runs a similar center at the Auschwitz Institute. He points 11 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: out that truth commissions are a relatively new phenomenon, a 12 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: lot newer than ideas about reparations or restitution. They're the 13 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: first step and what scholars call transitional justice away for 14 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: countries to deal with their own large scale human rights abuses. 15 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: It's built on four different pillars. Truth is the first 16 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: of those pillars, and it's often positioned as first because 17 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: it becomes a sort of prerequisite for dealing with some 18 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: of those other pillars, like justice and reparations and guaranteeing 19 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: non recurrence. The first one happened in Argentina in four 20 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: to investigate the quote disappearances of thousands of people, including 21 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: children and infants, during the country's military dictatorship. It started 22 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: where most truth commissions start. An independent body investigates what happened. 23 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: It identifies the victims and all the forms of violence 24 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: that occurred against them, and then it asked those harm 25 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: to tell their stories. This is important because changes the 26 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: historic record and often reveals atrocities perpetrators have tried to 27 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: keep hidden. In the end, Argentina's Truth Commission led to 28 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: a series of reforms. Truth commissions have since been used 29 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: across Africa and Latin America, and in Eastern Europe and 30 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: Southeast Asia. Some US lawmakers think America is long overdue. 31 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: In February, Representative Barbara Lee and Senator Corey Booker reintroduced 32 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: a bill that would set up a truth commission in 33 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: the US. The resolution, if passed, would urge the establishment 34 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: of United States Commission on Truth, Racial Healing, and Transformation. 35 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: Here's Congresswomanly talking about the bill last summer during a 36 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: virtual event. We call ours truth, Racial Healing, and Transformation, 37 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: not reconciliation, because there's really nothing to reconcile. There's no 38 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: no value in four hundred and one years of ago 39 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: of a two d fifty plus years of slavery, and 40 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: so we call it trail formation. I asked Carry about 41 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 1: what a truth commission in the US could accomplish. There 42 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: is still the reality that many white Americans have a 43 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: difficult time understanding how slavery was directly connected to, for instance, 44 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: mass incarceration and police brutality today. Or it could help 45 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: explain how slavery is connected to today's racial wealth gap. 46 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: But it's not an easy process and it won't magically 47 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: fix all inequality, especially if it doesn't go deep enough. 48 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: And that's not the only challenge. In the US. Even 49 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: the idea of something like a truth commission faces a 50 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: lot of resistance from people who don't want to dwell 51 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: on the past. They say that it's so far in 52 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 1: the past that having a truth commission will only highlight 53 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: and and sustain the divisions that are already present, that 54 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: really what we need to do is turn the page 55 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: and look towards the future. The reality Carry says is 56 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: that the people who are saying those things, who are 57 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: eager to move on, they tend to be the people 58 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: who have benefited throughout history and for them the status 59 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: quo is working. The data shows that the median white 60 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: family has ten times more wealth than the average black family. 61 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: One of the drivers of that wealth gap is redlining. 62 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: When it comes to understanding financial inequality in this country, 63 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: economists often point to the absence of African American generational 64 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: wealth see the Black mag Ota Plai the White mag Who. 65 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: Many of the Bedrock policies, in fact, that ushered generations 66 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: of Americans into the middle class were designed to exclude 67 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: African Americans. It's much easier to integrate a lunch counter 68 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: than it is to guarantee an annual income, for instance, 69 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: to get rid of positive It's really intended as much 70 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: to terrorize people in a physical sense as it is 71 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: to kind of deprive them of the opportunity to gain 72 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: equality through economic standing. It's a trend propelled not just 73 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: by economic forces, but by white racism and local white 74 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: political and economic power. Welcome back to the Paycheck. I'm 75 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: Jackie Simmons and I am Rebecca Greenfield. This is our 76 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: last episode this season. Our goal going into this was 77 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: to understand a bit more about the racial wealth gap. 78 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: It's been fifty years since the end of segregation in 79 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: Jim Crow. Why has an economic inequality between black and 80 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: white Americans budge at all? It brought us back to 81 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: slavery and everything that grew out of that system. And 82 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: the truth is that as a country, the United States 83 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: has never really reckoned with slavery or any of the 84 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: racist violence and oppression that followed. We have created a 85 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: narrative of denial. We've created a narrative that says we're 86 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: not going to talk about the mistakes we make. I 87 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: think it's because we've become such a punitive society. We 88 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: think if we own up to our mistakes, something bad 89 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: is going to happen to us. We're gonna get punished. 90 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: And I'm not doing these projects because I want to 91 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: punish America. I want us to be liberated from the 92 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: change that this history has created. That's Bryan Stevenson. He's 93 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: a lawyer and the executive director of the Equal Justice 94 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: Initiative in Montgomery, Alabama. In three years ago, this month, 95 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: he opened the first memorial to the thousands of black 96 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: Americans killed in racial terror lynchings from the end of 97 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: the Civil War up to nineteen fifty. The museum and 98 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: the memorial in Montgomery and the National Museum of African 99 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: American History and Culture, which opened in ten in Washington, 100 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: d c our steps toward correcting the historical record in 101 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: the US, but also universities, media companies, and investment banks 102 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: are increasingly owning up to the ways they participated in 103 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: or benefited from the slave trade. Earlier this spring, the 104 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: Virginia Supreme Court ruled that the city of Charlottesville can 105 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: go ahead and remove statues of Confederate soldiers, an effort 106 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: that's happening around the country. But there are plenty of 107 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,239 Speaker 1: people who choose to ignore this part of America's history 108 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: and how it connects to the present. On the other hand, 109 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: there's also people like my Bloomberg colleague, Claire Stuff. It's 110 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: the easiest thing to do is not to say something. 111 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of what this country is 112 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: going through and has been going through over and over 113 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: and over again, often stems from the fact that white 114 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: people are ignorant of their own actions and ignorant of 115 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: their families past actions. Claire's white. She grew up in Chicago, 116 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: but her parents were from the South, and they took 117 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: her to visit relatives on a big plantation in Mississippi. 118 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: Called Codsworth. If you've seen the movie The Help, well 119 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 1: that's Codsworth. It was originally owned by a man named 120 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: James Z. George, who was a U. S. Senator, colonel 121 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: and the Confederate Army during the Civil War and also 122 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: my great great great grandfather. Also he owned many slaves. 123 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: Claire wanted to learn more about James E. George. Not 124 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: only did he own slaves, he fought hard to preserve 125 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: white supremacy even after the Civil War ended. She learned 126 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: that he was a pioneer and crafting some of the 127 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: very first Jim Crow era legislation that kept black people 128 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: from voting. He also created the Understanding Clause, which required 129 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: people to be able to read or understand the Constitution, 130 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: that effectively removed tens of thousands of black people from 131 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: voter rolls. Claire wrote about her journey in an essay 132 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: for an online magazine called The delic Court Review. I 133 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to her about why she felt it 134 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 1: was important to tell her family story and what it 135 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: was like to reckon with their past. Hi, Claire, Hey, Jackie, 136 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: Obviously I know you and we've been colleagues for for 137 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: years now, but you know, until I read your story 138 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: about your family's history and about Codsworth. I didn't really 139 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: know that much about you or about your family in 140 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: their history. Why did you decide to write about Coatsworth 141 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: and what you called the two sides of Coatsworth in 142 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: your peace? I think you have to understand just how 143 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: unusual and rarit is for a family too still in 144 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: present day own, and not just own, but live in 145 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: a plantation that the same family has lived in since 146 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: before the Civil War. So there's that. But then also, 147 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: my grandmother died before I was born, and my middle 148 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: name is her name. Her name was Vernon, which is 149 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: also very unusual if you're a woman, and Colts was 150 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: the only connection, aside from my name, that I had 151 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 1: to her. But then as I started actually researching the 152 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: past of who was James E. George? Who owned it? 153 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: And what did he do? And what does it really 154 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: mean to own slaves? That was when I realized that 155 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: whatever feelings I have towards my grandmother and any living 156 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: relatives is separate from how I feel about what my 157 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: great great grandfather did d fifty sixty years ago. I'd 158 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: like to know what are your first memories of Codsworth? 159 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: So I knew that This was a house that my 160 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: family had had for a really long time, and I 161 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: remember thinking it was really cool. It was like this 162 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: relic from the past. All the furniture was over a 163 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: hundred years old, all the floorboards creaked. I could run 164 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: around the grass, which wasn't the meticulously kept suburban lawns 165 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: that I was used to. And I was really into 166 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: horses when I was a kid, so I brought all 167 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: my plastic horses and played with them in the front 168 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: yard of Codsworth. The other memory that I have was 169 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: that there was this small sort of rectangular shack behind 170 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: the house and off to the side that I think 171 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: is the last remaining structure that had been slaves quarters. 172 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: And I wasn't allowed to go inside because it was 173 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: structurally unsound and it was full of wasps nests. So 174 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: I never went inside, and I could never really even 175 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: peek inside because I couldn't get close enough to it. 176 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: But I remember knowing that it was there. So you 177 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: went back to Cotsworth with your dad in what was 178 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: your biggest takeaway from that trip? It's interesting to visit 179 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: something that you saw as a child and then revisited 180 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: again as an adult, because things that seemed huge and 181 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: almost unknowable, are as an adult probably much smaller and 182 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: more easier to comprehend than when you're a kid, And 183 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: so visiting it when I was young, I didn't really 184 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: understand the context of coats Worth, and my dad and 185 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: I went down there because I had started to become 186 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 1: interested in writing about it and researching it, so I 187 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: asked him if he would go with me. And that's 188 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: when I realized that at what I had sort of 189 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: romanticized as a child, or even or just focused on, 190 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: you know, how big the house was, how expansive the 191 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: land was, the fact that she had cows, it was 192 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: really cool when I was six, was actually, in reality 193 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 1: quite sad. It was a relic of the past in 194 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: more ways than one. But then also looking at the 195 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: the former slaves quarters, I realized how poignant it was 196 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: that they were still there. I have to ask about 197 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: the slave quarters. Did your family tell you about the 198 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: slave quarters? Did they How much did they talk to 199 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: you about that part of the plantation? I probably asked 200 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: what it was when I was six. I don't remember, 201 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: but I remember. I do know that when I returned 202 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: as an adult, I new to look for it, so 203 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: I must have known that it was there. How did 204 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: you have a conversation about the use of that space? 205 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: I mean, what did you give you an opportunity to 206 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: talk with your family or your dad about what had 207 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: happened there. The one thing that I have never fully 208 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: understood about my family and Codsworth is the house and 209 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: land is still meaningful to my family, even people who 210 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: don't live there, but they don't like to talk about 211 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: what it means to have owned a plantation in Mississippi 212 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: before the Civil War. So while my dad and relatives 213 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: never shied away from admitting that, yes, obviously my great 214 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: great great grandfather owned slaves, they didn't know much beyond 215 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: that because their parents never told them, and their parents 216 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: never told them, and so they just left it at that, like, 217 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: obviously that happened. But then the Civil War came along 218 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: and then we didn't have slaves anymore the end, And 219 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: I thought, well, I think there's probably much more to that. 220 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: And when you fully appreciated James E. George's significance with 221 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: regard to Mississippi politics and shaping the outcome of black 222 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: lives at that point in our history, what kind of 223 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: introspection did that provoke? In you about race in America 224 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: and especially as it relates to black lives today. I'm 225 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: less upset by my direct connection to this then I 226 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: am by the fact that I didn't know about it. 227 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: You know, when I was an elementary school in high school, 228 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: every year in history class we would learn about the 229 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: Civil War. Every year. I memorize the Gettysburg address in 230 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: fifth grade, and I still haven't memorized. I think I've 231 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: been to the battlefields. I've been to Gettysburg, I've been 232 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: to Vicksburg. But I I don't think there's very much 233 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: discussion among white people about white people's role in that. 234 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: And I don't really understand why, Because if you claim 235 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: to want to make things better, and if you claim 236 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: to disagree with all the stuff that has happened in 237 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: the past, you know why, why can't you talk about it? 238 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: You have a passage about this in your essay. Could 239 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: you read it? America has lurched and fits and starts 240 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: towards equality, But with every inch gained comes one side's 241 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: declaration that things are fine. Now, that's enough, but it's 242 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: not enough. The effects of what men like Jay Z 243 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: George did ripple through this country. Even now we encounter 244 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: this truth again and again, but somehow we still managed 245 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: to avoid facing it head on. I can't stop loving 246 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: my family, and by extension, I'll always be fond of 247 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: Coad's worth. But it's possible to care for something and 248 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: know that what it stands for is deeply wrong. It's 249 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: been a few years since you wrote that, does it 250 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: still resonate? You know? I don't love my grandmother because 251 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: she died before I was born, but my dad loved 252 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: her loves her still probably, and she in turn loved 253 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: her parents, who loved their parents. So by extension, you 254 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: could say that there has been love lasting through the generations. 255 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: And so someone that I'm connected to today is connected 256 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: to someone is connected to someone who did love someone 257 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: who owned slaves, And I think that is something that 258 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: I've actually never really articulated before, and also something that 259 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: I think is necessary for us to understand. There seems 260 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: to be this feeling that in admitting your past wrongs 261 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: here somehow admitting that everything about you in the past, 262 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: or everything about your family in the past is bad 263 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: and terrible. You did this amazing thing, Claire, where you 264 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: sought out descendants of people who were enslaved at Codsworth, 265 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: one of them agreed to meet you. What was that like? 266 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: In hindsight, Great Carlos is a lovely human being. He's 267 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,959 Speaker 1: really nice, funny, warm, But in the act of meeting him, 268 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: and beforehand, I was definitely nervous. I had never met 269 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: anyone under the pretext of the fact that my great 270 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: great great grandfather had enslaved his great grandfather. How do 271 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: you start a conversation when that is the one fact 272 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: binding you. Luckily, like I said, Carlos is nice and funny, 273 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: and so he brought his wife Tie along and sort 274 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: of diffused the initial awkwardness with warmth and humor, and 275 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 1: we took it from there. One of you had suggested 276 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: taking DNA tests after learning that you might be related 277 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: through James E. George. What happened was I, when I 278 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: was researching about jez George, I heard this rumor, and 279 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: I first heard it from the historian, the professor who 280 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: had written the one biography about him, and he told 281 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: me that none of the white people he had ever 282 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: interviewed had mentioned this, but he had heard it from 283 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: a number of black people, and he had heard that 284 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: Jay Z George had fathered children with women that he 285 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: had enslaved and when I first heard that, I thought, okay, 286 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: what do I do with that information? I can't ignore it, 287 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: and I'm a journalist, so I'll just follow up on 288 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: that rumor as I would if this were not my family, 289 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: if it were someone else's family, How would I follow 290 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: up on it? And the historians suggested that I reach 291 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: out to this group that is called, I think the 292 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: African American Genealogy Group of Carroll County, and they're on Facebook. 293 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: So I messaged several people who were people with the 294 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: last name George, so ostensibly former slaves of James C. 295 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: George from quotes Worth, and I asked them if they 296 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: had heard that rumor, and a number of them said 297 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: that they had. And when I talked to Carlos, he 298 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: said that while his immediate family had never talked about 299 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: that necessarily, he had heard that rumor over time, and 300 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: he said, you know, it would be great to be 301 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: able to take a d DNA test and you know, 302 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: put this room to rest one way or the other. 303 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: And so I thought, all right, you know, all I 304 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: can do is say yes. So we ordered DNA tests 305 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: through twenty three and me and we took them and 306 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: it turns out that we are not related. What did 307 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: it feel like when you first learned that you weren't related? 308 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: What was your first reaction. A lot of people have 309 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: asked me that, and a lot of people have asked, 310 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: weren't you relieved that this terrible thing hadn't happened? And 311 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: in the sense that I am glad that I know 312 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: that my great great grandfather didn't grape Joe George's mother, Yes, 313 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: obviously I'm glad that that did not happen, but I'm 314 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: well aware that I didn't answer the question fully. And 315 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: also while we were waiting for the results was when 316 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: I was doing more research and I learned about this 317 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: understanding clause and his role in enshrining white supremacy in Mississippi. 318 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: And so yeah, I guess that one answer is the 319 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: easier answer, but I mean, it's hard to feel good 320 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: about that knowing everything else. I will say that I 321 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: took the DNA test without telling the rest of my family. 322 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: I did that because if I told them before I 323 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: took it, I wouldn't know what the answer was and 324 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: I wouldn't know what to tell them. So I was 325 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: going to wait until I had the results, so that 326 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: I would only have to tell them once. So I 327 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,719 Speaker 1: told them, and because the result was that we weren't related, 328 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: I think they were like, okay, that answers that. Yesterday 329 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: and we were talking, you said that your family react 330 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: to it in a way most people would react. Tell 331 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: me more about that. Well, I assume they read it, 332 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: but they've never said anything to me about it, which 333 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: I take to mean they didn't hate it, but they 334 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: may not have totally loved it. And I've also never 335 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 1: asked them. It's a two way street, but it's out there, 336 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 1: and I told it because I felt a responsibility too. 337 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: And what do you say to white people who say, well, 338 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: I never I don't have a direct connection to slavery. 339 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: You know, my parents came here only in you know, 340 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: year X and had nothing to do with it. And 341 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: I've traced my past, so therefore I don't feel accountable. 342 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: What do you what do you say to that? I 343 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: think that's the easy answer. But I think if you 344 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: only look at your family and that ends, if you're 345 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: missing a lot. Right, I've lived my whole life in America. 346 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: I would say that I have an above average understanding 347 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: of American history, but only when I decided to sit 348 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: down as a side project and really research reconstruction in 349 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: my family's history. Did I really learn about this? Has 350 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: anyone else in your family reckoned with this history at all? 351 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: So you know, my dad is retired now and he 352 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: lives in Florida, and one of the projects that he 353 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: came up with to keep himself occupied during the pandemic 354 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: was he is working on this book about his family. 355 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: It's not going to be publicly published. It's like this 356 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: book that he's putting together with pictures and anecdotes about 357 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: this far, stretching as far back in history as he 358 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: can and going sort of as wide as he can. 359 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: He's including my mom's side of the family and my 360 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: step mom, my husband's side of the family. And he'll 361 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: publish it on snapfish or something like that and print 362 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: five copies or something and give it to people for presents. 363 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: Hopefully I'm not ruining future Christmas gifts for people, So 364 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: just acts surprised when you open it. So he's been 365 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: doing this, and he told me the other day we 366 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: were talking um that he had just finished the page 367 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: on James C. George and he said he had put 368 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: in the information that I had found about this understanding 369 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: clause and what he had done, but he wasn't really 370 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: sure how he felt about it. And it's in there 371 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: for now, but maybe if he needs to revise the 372 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: book later, he would leave it out. And I said, 373 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: I think he should keep it in. And I don't 374 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: know what hell decide. I guess I'll find out when 375 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: I opened my future Christmas present in a year or 376 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: something like that. But he has thought about it at least, 377 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: and I think it's a good sign that it's in 378 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: the first draft. So you gave birth to your first 379 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: child last year, Yeah, in a pandemic, little little Kate. Right, 380 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 1: So how did all of this research into your family 381 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: and to Codsworth make you think about the kind of 382 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: conversations you're going to have with little Kate down the 383 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: road that maybe your own family didn't have with you 384 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: about these topics. I may not ever take her to Codsworth, 385 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: or maybe I will, but it probably would be one time, 386 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: one trip two we're all Mississippi to see where she's from. 387 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: Maybe she'll be twelve or thirteen. Kate will grow up 388 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: as a generation even further removed from this past than me, 389 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: And in some ways that's how it should be. I 390 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: think the only way we can move forward is to 391 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: actually move forward. But I will tell her about her family, 392 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: and when I tell her about who would now be 393 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: her great grandmother's side of the family or her great 394 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: great great great grandfather, I will tell her all of 395 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: this and she'll grow up learning about it, and she 396 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: won't have to spend, you know, six months, nine months 397 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: of her life researching it to find out. Claire was 398 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: able to learn a lot about her family's history going 399 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: back centuries. That's something most people can't or won't do. 400 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: When I think back to my family's story of land 401 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: lost in Ease, Texas, where it all began, there's a 402 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: lot my research didn't yield. So, for instance, I never 403 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: figured out about my great great grandparents migration from Tennessee 404 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: to Texas. I also didn't know how they lived as 405 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 1: slaves and then as free people. I did, however, manage 406 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: to track down the original deed to my family's land 407 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 1: with the help from Jason, a listener in Ohio. So, Jackie, 408 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, having gone through this process in a more 409 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: personal way, what gives you hope Spending months diving into 410 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: the causes and consequences of the racial wealth gap. It 411 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: could feel dark. It's just such a big problem with 412 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,479 Speaker 1: no simple solutions. No, there's not. But let's be honest. 413 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: We might not get to closing the racial wealth gap 414 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: anytime soon. And if I'm totally honest, I'm not even 415 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: hopeful we'll get there in my lifetime. There is one 416 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: underlying thread that ran through my research, and that's resilience. 417 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: I don't think we talk about that enough. It's resilience 418 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: that keeps black people proud and thriving in our own ways. 419 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: Take my cousin Yolanda and Dallas. She walked away from 420 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: our family's land in Kilmur. She's now trying to develop 421 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: another hundred acres of land in a town nearby, land 422 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: that her family initially acquired after slavery. My cousin had 423 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: to tell me, he said, your grandfather would turn over 424 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: in his grave to know that you all have done 425 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: nothing on this property. You need to be ashamed of yourself. 426 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: And so this got me to thinking that I owe 427 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: it to my grandmother and grandfather two cultivate this land 428 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: and to make it where what he would have wanted 429 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: it to be. Tna her grandparents. Jolana wants to build 430 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: a pavilion on the land. That's really some balked to me, 431 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: because most black families never managed to pass on wealth 432 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: from generation to generation as white families have. But the 433 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: way I see it, Yolana's vision shows that black families 434 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: do pass on hope and they pass on the ambitions 435 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: of their ancestors. And that's one of the biggest take 436 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: aways from season three of The Paycheck. We went as 437 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: far back as forty acres in a mule, right through 438 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: to the late eight nineties, when a black woman called 439 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: Kelly House proposed reparations and was eventually jailed for it. 440 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: We talked about local initiatives to address past wrongs in 441 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: places like Evanston, Illinois. Now the US is weighing a 442 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: bill in Congress to study reparations, and it's the resilience 443 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: of people behind those efforts. People like Kellie or my 444 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: cousin Yolanda, or my colleague Claire. They're willing to speak 445 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: up and talk honestly about our past, present in future. 446 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: It's people like them who give me hope that will 447 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: get there eventually. This is the last episode of our season. 448 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to The Paycheck. If 449 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: you liked this show. Please rate, review, and subscribe. This 450 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: episode was hosted Aimy, Rebecca Greenfield, and Me Jackie Simmons. 451 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: This episode was reported by Claire Sadeth and Rebecca Greenfield. 452 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Magnus Hendrickson and Lindsay Cradowell, 453 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: and it was edited by Rocksheeta Saluja, Jackie Simmons, Janet Paskin, 454 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: Francesca Levi, and Me. Special thanks to Katie Boys, Laura 455 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: Carlson Chaufer for has Laura's Alenko, and all the Bloomberg 456 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: reporters and editors who made this season possible. Original music 457 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: is by Leo Sidron. Francesca Levy is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. 458 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening.