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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so

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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man,

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Speaker 1: the myth, the legend, the map maker, super producer, mister

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Speaker 1: Max Williams.

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Speaker 2: Gobble gabble, He's the map, He's the map, He's the map,

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Speaker 2: He's the map. On Sue us Nick Jr.

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Speaker 1: Ah Nick, everything's going fine. Now. That's mister Noel Brown

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Speaker 1: right there. Uh and that's uh uh. They called me

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Speaker 1: Bullen in this part of the world. Guys, before we

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Speaker 1: get into our history of ridiculous maps yesteryear, I think

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Speaker 1: we owe it to our fellow listeners to talk about

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Speaker 1: a snight kerfuffle. We had a lot of us were

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Speaker 1: tuning into Ridiculous History recently and saw a description of

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Speaker 1: Doc Holiday as a deadly dentist, only to hear a

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Speaker 1: pretty in depth exploration of the ridiculous history of dog food.

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Speaker 2: The classic bait and switch the RHBNS.

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Speaker 1: So we love this, by the way, because guys, we

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Speaker 1: got some We got some hilarious and supportive comments from

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Speaker 1: our fellow ridiculous historians who were weirdly and no offense.

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Speaker 1: Anybody weirdly super on board with that bait and switch

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Speaker 1: you described.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say, bemused.

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Speaker 1: Bemused is a great word.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you think so. It again is a great word,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's appropriate here. I certainly was, And

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Speaker 2: you know, it would be not that far out of

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Speaker 2: character for the show to just like start with one

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Speaker 2: idea and then pivot to something completely different.

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Speaker 3: And if I could just jump in here, as as

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Speaker 3: the man who runs the RSS feed, it is very

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Speaker 3: easy to switch an M and a B. That is

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Speaker 3: what happened. No joke in my internal system, the M

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Speaker 3: and the B in November got flipped, which jumped the

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Speaker 3: wrong episode to the top of my queue of uploading things.

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Speaker 2: So it was upspreadsheet kerfuffle.

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Speaker 3: But I liked the idea of we did that intentionally,

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Speaker 3: so let's go with it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, let's just continue the mystery. Hey guys, I have

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Speaker 2: a bit of a pitch. Sure, I'm surprised we haven't

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Speaker 2: seen it. Maybe I've missed it, But what do you

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Speaker 2: think about a Jigsaw esque serial killer with the with

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Speaker 2: the message called the Cartographer who like takes people's skin

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Speaker 2: and turns them into historical maps. I didn't know you

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Speaker 2: reapped my blog. No Ah, man, it was too good

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Speaker 2: to be No, it's original.

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Speaker 1: It's great. As you can tell, we're always pitching. We're

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Speaker 1: always trying to think ahead, you know, we're pitching, closing,

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Speaker 1: drinking coffee, always be cartographing, which is a word we

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Speaker 1: just churchified. Today's episode is the first in an ongoing

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Speaker 1: series about maps. Now, Noel, you know I collect and

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Speaker 1: obsess over maps.

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Speaker 2: Have you?

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Speaker 1: Are you a map guy?

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Speaker 2: I have a map of Skyrim that our buddy Matt

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Speaker 2: Frederick gives to both of us. It is currently in

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Speaker 2: a holding space while I figure out a new place

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Speaker 2: to put it because I had to do a little

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Speaker 2: moving around to some art pieces. But it was hanging

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Speaker 2: in my guest room for some time. No, but have

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Speaker 2: we not done an episode about funky maps? Surely it's

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Speaker 2: come up, man, I love that this. Yeah, okay, so

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Speaker 2: maybe we could you know, retroactively, Grandfather goes into this

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Speaker 2: ongoing series, but for our purposes today, we can call

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Speaker 2: this part. Well, yeah, you don't.

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Speaker 1: Cast your memory back fellow human beings. Back in the

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Speaker 1: days where most people lived and died about thirty miles

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Speaker 1: from where they were born. Like in that area, you

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Speaker 1: don't know much about the world around you. Someone comes

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Speaker 1: up to you and says, hey, the world is round,

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Speaker 1: and you're like burn the witch. Or they say hey,

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Speaker 1: the world is flat and you're like, that's a platform

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Speaker 1: I can stand on. Or they say the world shaped

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Speaker 1: like a casadilla and you're like, what the time means?

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Speaker 2: Wrong here?

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Speaker 1: Case the dias aren't.

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Speaker 2: Nothing yet but also delicious in advance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the issue is that making maps is very difficult.

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Speaker 1: It it's easier now than ever, but we have to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge that all of the photographers of old, let me

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Speaker 1: amend that most of the cartographers of old were doing

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Speaker 1: the best they could with the technology and the information

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Speaker 1: they had.

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Speaker 2: They were doing their level best, you know, yeah, because

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Speaker 2: it's almost like, I mean, now we've got all this

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Speaker 2: satellite imagery and things that can take a much larger

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Speaker 2: overview scanning, you know, bodies of water and land, masses,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. But back in those days, if you didn't

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Speaker 2: if you hadn't actually traversed the thing that you were mapping,

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Speaker 2: you really were guessing. And even if you had traversed it,

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Speaker 2: to fit it all into the jigsaw, puzzle that is,

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Speaker 2: all of the surrounding land masses and have things like

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Speaker 2: borders and all of these other ephemeral concepts. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's gonna be there's gonna be some misses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean. That's why we call

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Speaker 1: it the drawing board. That's why we call science and

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Speaker 1: learning a conversation. So with that in mind, we being

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Speaker 1: a supportive crew of absolute bozos, we want to talk

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Speaker 1: about times cartographers bozoed up their maps, specifically the island

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Speaker 1: of California. I'm sorry, what the island of California. This

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Speaker 1: comes to us from old world auctions. This is probably

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Speaker 1: one of the most familiar famous cartographic mistakes. Oh, and

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Speaker 1: we should say cartography is the study of and creation

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Speaker 1: of maps.

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Speaker 2: Oh sorry, yeah, we very the lead there. Our apologies. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm still hung up on this idea of

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Speaker 2: California being an island. Whose idea was that? Right?

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Speaker 1: Take us to the manager, we say, calling Gavin Newsom.

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Speaker 1: This is if you look at the map, it is

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Speaker 1: a vaguely carrot or rocket shaped mass and it's detached

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Speaker 1: from the western coast of North America. So if you

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Speaker 1: look at this map from back in the day, it

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Speaker 1: appears that California is not part of the contiguous United States. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it looks like it's a little floating boy out there

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Speaker 1: on the left.

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Speaker 2: Can we also just name off the insane map that

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Speaker 2: this comes from, Oh the let's see Henricus Hondius as

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Speaker 2: the name of the cartographer, and the work or the

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Speaker 2: piece is entitled Nova totius tarum orbis geographica ac hydrophica tabula.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming the act is meant to be pronounced, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not one hundred percent sure. It may well be

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Speaker 2: like a you know, a hyphen.

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Speaker 1: Or something like that, like our pal Joe Mikelhanney Mick

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Speaker 1: al Hanny is yeah, okay, well, apologies Joe if we're

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Speaker 1: mispronouncing the name, as our pal is saying here. Joe

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Speaker 1: points out that before California was established as an actual

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Speaker 1: place to the Europeans, it was a fantasy invented by

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Speaker 1: the guy who named the map, Garci Rodriguez de Montalvo.

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Speaker 1: He's a Castilian, and.

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Speaker 2: Can I just say the latin esque sounding name that

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Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier is just one of numerous versions of

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Speaker 2: this thing that exists. It's not like the og but

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Speaker 2: I just had to rattle down right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing. So the idea or the name,

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Speaker 1: the concept of California was invented before Europeans and discovered

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Speaker 1: the actual place called California today. Back in fifteen ten,

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Speaker 1: our Buddy Montovo, he published a sort of like a

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Speaker 1: spin off or an addition to chronicles that have been

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Speaker 1: written earlier. And in his description he he just waxes

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Speaker 1: on like he waxes on, waxes off. He goes ham

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Speaker 1: on this idea of an island paradise to the right

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Speaker 1: hand of the endies that was populated only by and

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Speaker 1: there's a quote from him, Amazonian black women who are

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Speaker 1: protected by the mythological creatures the Griffins, and they have

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Speaker 1: a bunch of.

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Speaker 2: Gold Griffin's being the what is it like a lion?

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Speaker 1: It's like a lion eagle.

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Speaker 2: That's right, talent and flighted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, here we have to mention a previous episode we

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Speaker 1: create way back in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: That's right, the episode that I think I was referencing,

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Speaker 2: or at least working towards referencing, California was named for

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Speaker 2: a fictional island ruled by a black Amazon queen. I

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Speaker 2: think there are a couple others that fit this series

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Speaker 2: as well, but that one was definitely on my mind.

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Speaker 2: So Montvalo's story or Montalvo's story, excuse me, began to

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Speaker 2: circulate and really took on a life of its own.

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Speaker 2: And so the Spanish explorers in New Spain were very

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Speaker 2: familiar with what had become kind of a type of

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Speaker 2: lore and this sort of notion of this promised land,

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Speaker 2: you know, the island of California.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they took it as a matter of fact. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of like if you were an astronaut and all

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Speaker 1: you knew about the moon was science fiction, you would say, oh,

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Speaker 1: of course, this is the stuff from the story earlier.

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Speaker 1: And so our buddy, or many people, particularly Hernan Cortes,

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Speaker 1: they carry over these ideas, this informative, inspirational fiction, and

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Speaker 1: eventually one of Cortes's two ships, the Conception, is taken

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Speaker 1: over by mutiny and it is steered to a site

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Speaker 1: that's kind of near present day Lapause. This means that

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Speaker 1: crew is the first European ship to land in what

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Speaker 1: we call Baja California.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Cortes the killer of Neil Young fame, of course,

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Speaker 2: but before he had an opportunity to write up a

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Speaker 2: you know, an account of this discovery or really survey

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Speaker 2: the area for map making purposes. Yeminez was killed by

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Speaker 2: the locals. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the guy we're referencing here for tune im Andez

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Speaker 1: is the leader of the mutiny and he brings the

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Speaker 1: he rocks up with this awesome weather Warren boat at

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Speaker 1: this point, and he is murdered. Not everybody aboard is murdered.

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Speaker 1: There are surviving crew members and they make it back

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Speaker 1: to their version of you know what they call civilization,

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Speaker 1: and they say, oh wow, there's this crazy island way

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Speaker 1: out to the left of the map. And this catches

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Speaker 1: the attention of vernand Cortes. He starts exploring the Baja

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Speaker 1: California region in May of fifteen thirty five. And at

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Speaker 1: this point, no, we have to we have to note

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Speaker 1: I almost said we have to map. We have to

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Speaker 1: note that if you look at this part of the

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Speaker 1: coast of North America, there is a long peninsular thing.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So if you don't have enough information, it might look

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Speaker 1: like an island to you.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And I really did. It occurred to me

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Speaker 2: when I think of like a peninsula. I guess I

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Speaker 2: always think about Florida, for example, the hole, the way

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Speaker 2: it juts out for Italy or the sea or Italy,

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Speaker 2: of course, and I could see how with a limited view,

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Speaker 2: a limited scope of what was going on along the

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Speaker 2: coast here, that one could, you know, make that mistake.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, we're not here to like criticize the people

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Speaker 2: of the past, because to your point, Ben, you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes we are. But they did their best with the

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Speaker 2: information that they had. Yeah, Suar Guy Cortes and crew.

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Speaker 2: They travel about two hundred miles up both the Gulf

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Speaker 2: and the Pacific coast, and they're originating from Cabo San Lucas.

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Speaker 2: At this point, your buddy Hernand says, oh geez, okay,

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Speaker 2: cheese and crackers. This land is an island. Nothing I

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Speaker 2: have seen so far from the boat, with the information

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Speaker 2: I have, could make the story I read earlier sound incorrect.

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Speaker 2: So this is an island. We're gonna call it California

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Speaker 2: because I'm well read and I remember that from the

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Speaker 2: story I read earlier. Right. Yeah, Well, the funny thing is,

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Speaker 2: even in this day and age, with that aforementioned lack

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Speaker 2: of information, the island myth was, you know, the was

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Speaker 2: debunked pretty quickly, if not nearly instantly. In the following years,

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Speaker 2: a couple of a handful of years after Cortes's journey

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Speaker 2: up the coast, his lieutenant Francisco de Aloa, along with

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Speaker 2: Hernando de Alarcon and Melschar Diaz, took a little bit

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Speaker 2: more of a meticulous look at the survey and decided

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Speaker 2: that it was, in fact a peninsula like I was

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Speaker 2: mentioning earlier, which seems to me to be a more

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Speaker 2: obvious mistake than island, because it's also not a peninsula, right.

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Speaker 1: Well, California has a peninsular feature. That's the issue. And

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Speaker 1: as we're saying, three different people Diaz Alacon, they all

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Speaker 1: confirm that this is not an island. But the game

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Speaker 1: of telephone begins and so the fact gets lost. There

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Speaker 1: are all these rumors going around in a very slow

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Speaker 1: information age, so you hear something from someone who knows

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Speaker 1: someone and now you think it's a fact. What they

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Speaker 1: call the Gulf of California, the rumors go, is actually

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Speaker 1: a straight st r a t connected to the Strait

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Speaker 1: of Onion. But there is one guy credited with popularizing

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Speaker 1: this belief, the belief, the legend, the absolutely juicy story

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Speaker 1: but factually inaccurate lore that California is an island. He

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Speaker 1: is a friar. His name Antonio de Lasentio. Oh and he,

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Speaker 1: by the way, did not speak from authority.

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Speaker 2: That's right, asension was not educated. He had little to

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Speaker 2: no experience. But what he lacked an education experience, he

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Speaker 2: made up for in raw imagination. He was a member

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Speaker 2: of an orderer like I guess I'm a monastic order,

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Speaker 2: the Barefoot Carmelite, where he served as assistant cosmographer in

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Speaker 2: sixteen oh two during an expedition led by Sebastian Vizkindo.

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Speaker 2: His mission was to establish a site for Spanish trade

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Speaker 2: from the Philippines along the route from the Philippines, in

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Speaker 2: order to kind of, you know, take stock and re

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Speaker 2: up on supplies, and also to take shelter in the

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Speaker 2: unfortunate event of an attack from the British privateers that

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Speaker 2: we know so well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's baus here and think about how ambitious

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Speaker 1: this expansion scheme is. These ships are not very quick.

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Speaker 1: They're going across the Pacific from the Philippines to this

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Speaker 1: island of California, and then they're also navigating their way

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Speaker 1: around the world. That's pretty impressive. Our barefoot carmelite here

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Speaker 1: sends you on he is, he's there, And as you said, Noel,

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Speaker 1: sixteen twos. So we have to remember that he's referencing

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Speaker 1: stuff that was discovered back in the fifteen forties by

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Speaker 1: the span Can I say spaniards on this show.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I think spaniards is the correct phrase.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, let's keep all of this in as

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Speaker 2: long as you don't say dirty Spaniards.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those sex driven Spaniards or something like.

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Speaker 2: That, swarthy spaniards.

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Speaker 1: We're keeping it all in. So we're keeping it all in.

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Speaker 1: And look, the timing is important. So, like Noel was saying,

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Speaker 1: sixteen oh two, this expedition by this kind of In

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Speaker 1: this you can find a journal that is written at

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Speaker 1: the time and it's published several years after the end

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Speaker 1: of the mission. In this you will see the argument

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Speaker 1: that the Gulf of California goes on to communicate with

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Speaker 1: the Ocean of the North by the strait of on

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Speaker 1: the island. So Ascension has no first hand evidence about

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Speaker 1: California being an islands, but he is not gonna let

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Speaker 1: the facts get in the way of a very good story.

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Speaker 1: And we have a quote from it. Yeah, let's call

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Speaker 1: this a quick summation of that story. Sincion wrote, I

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Speaker 1: hold it to be very certain and proven that the

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Speaker 1: whole Kingdom of California, it's a kingdom now discovered on

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Speaker 1: this voyage is the largest islands known or which has

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Speaker 1: been discovered up to the present day. Ben Is this

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Speaker 1: all in the service of a bit of self aggrandizement,

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Speaker 1: perhaps of the of the explorer himself, and also, you know,

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Speaker 1: the crown. You know, I think about that a lot, Noel,

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Speaker 1: because it's kind of like, to put it in modern context,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like how a friend comes back from

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Speaker 1: a trip abroad and becomes momentarily insufferable, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and so now this guy's like, oh, I went out,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, what have you done to

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Speaker 1: other barefoot carmelites. Well, I saw the Kingdom of California

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Speaker 1: and it's the biggest island ever.

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Speaker 2: So that's my trip one hundred percent. Doesn't it also

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Speaker 2: just sound like a little bit like a big fishtail,

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Speaker 2: you know, like this is certain and proven, the whole

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Speaker 2: of the Kingdom of California discovered on this voyage. My thing,

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Speaker 2: the largest island. No man that has or ever will

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Speaker 2: be discovered. Yeah, he doesn't saying that he does stay

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Speaker 2: up to the present day. But it just I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's got a certain rhetorical panache to it. Maybe the

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Speaker 2: smacks of like, he does he really believe this or

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Speaker 2: is he just talking a big game.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit self aggrandizing, uh diplomatically put and it

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Speaker 1: is wild conjecture. However, it captures the public imagination, and

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Speaker 1: starting in sixteen twenty two, so decades and decades after

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Speaker 1: everybody said California is not an island, it starts to

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Speaker 1: appear as an island on maps. You can find well

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Speaker 1: over two hundred fifty examples of maps from the time

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Speaker 1: period and shortly after it that appear to depict California

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Speaker 1: as an island. Starting as we said back in sixteen

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Speaker 1: twenty two, I.

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Speaker 2: Think that's the one I referenced with the really long

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Speaker 2: Latin novo What is it nova novo totius trorum terrarum

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Speaker 2: orbis sounds like a Harry Potter spell geographica ac or

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Speaker 2: ac hydrographica tabula a classic. I've been watching the Harry

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Speaker 2: Potter movies recently for the first time ever, not as

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Speaker 2: bad as I thought, kind of entertaining. So also, like

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Speaker 2: Harry Potter Gills on the Brain, how far are you

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Speaker 2: into it? I am on the The Deathly Hallows Part two.

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Speaker 2: I know you're gonna love it. Man good, I'm not joking. Man,

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Speaker 2: I poo pooed them for years, and I actually think

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Speaker 2: the movies get better. Actually they get much as the

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Speaker 2: story gets more adult. But obviously JK. Rowling not a

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Speaker 2: great person, No, not a favorite.

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Speaker 1: And this is why we decided to make an episode

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Speaker 1: about our favorite maps that are incorrect. Starting with this,

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Speaker 1: the game of telephone begins. All right, it's sixteen twenty two.

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Speaker 1: There's a guy who publishes a map. In sixteen twenty two.

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Speaker 1: We know Pacific maritime trade is already a thing. So

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Speaker 1: if you go as far as the early nineteenth century

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Speaker 1: in Japan, you will see maps that argue California is

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Speaker 1: an island, like all the way up to eighteen sixty five,

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Speaker 1: well after California has become a state in the United

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Speaker 1: States of America. Like everybody who lives there knows it's

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Speaker 1: not an island, but everybody has heard from someone who

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Speaker 1: is heard from someone who has it on a good

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Speaker 1: authority that this place is an island, so the maps

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Speaker 1: don't agree with the facts on the ground.

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Speaker 2: So part of the problem here was that the area

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Speaker 2: in question was incredibly difficult to explore by either land

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Speaker 2: or sea, which, as we mentioned at the top, is

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Speaker 2: a key part of making maps correctly. Explorers in the

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Speaker 2: region would often face really really harsh conditions, nasty weather,

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Speaker 2: you know, running short on supplies, starvation, and of course disease.

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Speaker 2: And this was a tall order because I mean there

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Speaker 2: was a lot of hardship being faced for not a

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Speaker 2: lot of return.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the issue. They were selling a pretty wild pitch, right,

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Speaker 1: And it turns out gold is not just falling in

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Speaker 1: your hand rolling off a hill. It is still the

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Speaker 1: real world and there are real problems. And there's one

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Speaker 1: guy we want to introduce into the stage now. He's

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Speaker 1: our protagonist for this episode, Max If we could get

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Speaker 1: a drum roll, that's right, folks, the Jesuit missionary explorer

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Speaker 1: and cartographer Lusimio Guino or causing for a cloth. All right, everybody,

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Speaker 1: case sit down. Our guy, Keino is the dude or

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Speaker 1: the European dude who definitively proves that California has a peninsula.

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Speaker 1: It is not an island. And get this, folks, for

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Speaker 1: the first like well more than one hundred years after

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Speaker 1: he proves this, everybody is like, ah, shut up, you Jesuit,

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Speaker 1: sit down, It might be an island.

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Speaker 2: So this fellow arrived in Bahai in sixteen eighty one

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Speaker 2: believing that California as a whole was a peninsula. This

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Speaker 2: is what many folks in this guy generation were taught

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Speaker 2: there in Ingle stopt But soon after he got to

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Speaker 2: Mexico he saw with his own eyes something that indicated

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Speaker 2: to him that it was in fact an island.

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Speaker 1: He went back and forth right and then what did

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Speaker 1: he see?

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Speaker 2: His laughter.

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Speaker 1: He had a conversation with a very charismatic guy, like

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Speaker 1: the slap Chop guy or something.

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Speaker 2: Maybe so yes, yes, the showtime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so the thing is, our buddy Keno sticks

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Speaker 1: around the area, and the more he sees of the region,

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Speaker 1: the more he starts to say, I don't know, doesn't

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Speaker 1: look like an island to me. And because he is

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Speaker 1: a Jesuit, he is deeply disciplined. He is of a

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Speaker 1: religious school of thought that does not eschee science. So

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Speaker 1: you have to learn the facts, is what he's thinking

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Speaker 1: as a jesuit. So from sixteen ninety eight all the

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Speaker 1: way up to seventeen oh one, he keeps building this

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Speaker 1: case that California is indeed a peninsula. And we have

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Speaker 1: a quote from him in this regard.

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Speaker 2: Yes we do, and I am going to give you

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Speaker 2: that quote. I have discovered, he says, with minute certainty

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Speaker 2: and evidence, got another big game talker with mariners, compass

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Speaker 2: and astrolabe in my hands, that California is not an

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Speaker 2: island but a peninsula or an isthmus, which is a

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Speaker 2: favorite geographical word of mine. And that in thirty two

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Speaker 2: degrees of latitude there is a passage by land to California,

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Speaker 2: and that only two about that point comes ahead of

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Speaker 2: the Sea of California.

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Speaker 1: All right, So after this guy says this, the European

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Speaker 1: world still doesn't want to admit it. If you go

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Speaker 1: to the big time publishers and map makers of the day,

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Speaker 1: folks like Herman mal Moll, you'll see that they just

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Speaker 1: dismiss it. This guy, who is by the way, incorrect

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Speaker 1: in this quote. In seventeen eleven, he says, I've had

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Speaker 1: my office mariners who have sailed around it, meaning the

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Speaker 1: island of California, which cannot be accurate because California is

401
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Speaker 1: not an island, and the colleagues, like his fellow Jesuits

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Speaker 1: of Quino, they shrugged off his findings too. Eventually, some

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Speaker 1: other Jesuits follow up on his work. One of these guys,

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Speaker 1: Juan de Ugarte, travels up the Gulf of California as

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Speaker 1: far as he can make it in seventeen twenty one,

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Speaker 1: and then another Jesuit named Fernando consag he surveys the

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Speaker 1: gulf completely in seventeen forty six. This is all before

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Speaker 1: the United States is a thing. Now it becomes like

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Speaker 1: a culture war, as weird as it is to say,

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Speaker 1: King Ferdinand the seventh issues a royal decree to shut

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Speaker 1: everybody up in seventeen forty seven.

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Speaker 4: Quiet, quiet you, and he said, look officially, as the

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Speaker 4: king with God given authority, California is not an island.

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Speaker 4: So everybody you know, sit down, knock it off with

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Speaker 4: all your yammer and get in line my kingly perspective.

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Speaker 1: So this guy, the King Ferdinand, he is on the

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Speaker 1: right side of history in only this respect. And the

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Speaker 1: problem is people are still making maps and most of

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Speaker 1: photography at this point in time, so far as we

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Speaker 1: know is one person seeing a map and then copying

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Speaker 1: that and making their own tweaks.

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Speaker 2: And speaking of the game of telephone, I mean telephone

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Speaker 2: is almost like too advanced of analogy here, because it

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Speaker 2: was like word of mouth and things had to spread,

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Speaker 2: you know, through written correspondence, and it would take a

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Speaker 2: long time for the incorrect information to get filtered out.

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Speaker 2: There is no real time response and like retractions, I

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Speaker 2: mean you'd have like maybe you'd have isolated areas that

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Speaker 2: like wouldn't even get the memo for many years, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: You know, And that's why I think you nailed it.

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Speaker 1: The legend of a thing will often out sell the

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Speaker 1: u truth of the thing, right, That's the way to

433
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: put it. So, this concept of California as an island

434
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: is long gone. You can travel there now, Maxnoll and

435
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: yours truly have often go on to California, and we

436
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: love it. We have a studio out in La We

437
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: have a ton of friends all throughout that state. However,

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00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: now the idea of California as an island, since it

439
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: was so widely published, now it is a fascinating thing

440
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: for map collectors and fellow cartography nerds.

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00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like misprinted currency. Like a lot of times,

442
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: those kind of things are the holy grail for collectors, right,

443
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: So that would make sense that this would definitely be

444
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 2: highly collectible. And W. Michael Maths, who is a cartography historian, agrees.

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00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: He refers to this depiction of California as possibly the

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00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: most attractive phenomenon in the history of cartography, due entirely

447
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: to its bizarreness, its connection with the romantic nature of exploration.

448
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: And I think what it represents just in terms of

449
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: like how outlandish speculation could thrive in this point in history.

450
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: The perie Rees map has entered the chats, but we

451
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: have your back, Mike. W. Mike, if we may be familiar,

452
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: this calls back to this idea of outlandish speculation, take

453
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: it as truth as long as enough people are repeated it.

454
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: And maybe it's due to the fantastical writings of early

455
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: European interloopers, California still has this mythical air about it

456
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: to this day. If you look at it, like if

457
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: we exercise empathy and we imagine we're back in the

458
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: fifteen hundreds or the sixteen hundred, and we see every

459
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: single map of this part of the world showing California

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00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: as an island. Then it's not a bridge too far

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00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: to think that. Hey, maybe that's true.

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00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: And this is the beginning of a long journey because

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00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: we've talked about maps on stuff they don't want you

464
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: to know. We've talked about maps. When we were lost

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00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: in the National Radio Quiet Zone. We desperately talked about

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00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: maps on that road trips.

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00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, we desperately. We were desperately seeking maps to load

468
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: on our phones, but we couldn't. Luckily, I think our

469
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: buddy Scott had like an old school Garman that did

470
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: give us a little bit of relief in that case.

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00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: It just goes to show you know, we rely on

472
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: these little devices in our hands quite a.

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00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: Lot, and we also know that there are more maps

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00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: in the future. Sure, big, big things to you, fellow

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00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: Ridiculous historians for tuning in. Big thanks to our super

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00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: producer and research associate for this episode, mister Max Williams,

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00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: who else, Noel?

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00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: Who else? Who else? Well, Alex Williams who composed our theme,

479
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: Chris Frasciotis and he's Jeff goes here in spirit Ualathu

480
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: Strickland the quiztor. Hey j mohammas Jacobs the Puzzler.

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00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: Now, I'm gonna let you slide on that nice thank

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00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: you to the Quist.

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00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: You know he knows what he did. He does know

484
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: what he did. It's true, just like you say, any

485
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: sort of insists upon himself, but we insist upon him

486
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: as well.

487
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: And we can't wait for you to insist upon your

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00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: local podcast platform of.

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00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: Please can't quit the quistor man, you can't quit the Quist.

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00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: And if you find yourself on ye old internets, please

491
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: feel free to give us a little rating, give us

492
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: a little five star review if you feel in generous.

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00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: I don't know how much people charge for stars these days,

494
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: but we sure would appreciate it. Now we've got our

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00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: super producer Max popping in on the chat to make

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00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: some remarks.

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00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: I imagine, gobble gobble.

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00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 3: This is Thanksgiving episodes that I was gonna keep saying.

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00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: Gobble gobble, and and with you as and with you

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00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: as well, folks.

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00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 2: Thanks for tuning in. Yes, we'll see you next time,

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00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: folks in Happy yeah, happy holiday season. Tough you. For

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00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,