1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. Okay, 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: so true confession on this one. This episode is inspired 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: by one of my cats. Yeah, but simultaneously fascinating. It 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: a lot older than I thought. Yes, Um, it's not 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,319 Speaker 1: about kiddies or animals really at all, although they are 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: mentioned in terms of um medical testing. Nothing particularly gruesome, 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: but just f y, I if that's troublesome for you. Um, 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: it is in fact about science because my cat, Azzle 11 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: was hyper thyroid and so we opted to have radio 12 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: iodine therapy treatment for him. And as my vet was 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: describing this to me and she's like, Oh, it's just 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: like how they do it in humans, blah blah blah blah, 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: and I was like, I have never thought about this before. 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: Where did this all begin? Um? So it just got 17 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: me wondering about the origins of this treatment because it 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: is a very um successful treatment and it's one of 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: those things that both humans and animals seem to respond 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: well to, which just was fascinating to me because, as 21 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 1: you know, I love a little bit of science. So 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: that is what we were talking about today, the advent 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: of radio iodine therapy. So first we're gonna talk just 24 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: a little bit about your thyroid and how it works. 25 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: Your thyroid is a small organ that sits below your larynx, 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: and in the most basic terms, its job is to 27 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: convert the iodine and the food you eat into hormones 28 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: that regulate your metabolism. Thyroid cells are the only ones 29 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: in the human body that take an iodine, but all 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: of the other cells in the body are affected by 31 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: the work that the thyroid does. So the hormone known 32 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: as thyroxine abbreviated as T four and the hormone tri iodithyronine, 33 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: known also as T three are vital to normal metabolic function. 34 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: But the thyroid, which makes those again out of iodine, 35 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: isn't out there just functioning so low. It is regulated 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: by the pituitary gland, which is in turn regulated by 37 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: the hypothalamus. If your thyroid isn't producing enough hormone, that's 38 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: called hypothyroidism, and it doesn't present really obvious symptoms at 39 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: the beginning a lot of the time, but it can 40 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: lead to other problems, including obesity and heart disease. Normally, 41 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: hypothyroidism is treated with synthetic hormones to get the level 42 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: of thyroid function back up to normal. And if your 43 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: thyroid is producing too much hormone like my cats, that 44 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: is known as hyper thyroidism, and in this case it 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: sort of overclocks the body's metabolic function. So in this case, 46 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: unintentional weight loss and rapid heart rate and even irregular 47 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: heartbeat are all symptoms which obviously can lead to some 48 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: pretty serious problems if they're left unchecked. The advances in 49 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: thyroid treatment that we're going to talk about today it 50 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: took place less than a hundred years ago, but thyroid 51 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: disease has been part of recorded history going all the 52 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: way back to a seven hundred b c E. When 53 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: seaweed was prescribed in China to treat goiter. The gorder 54 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: is a swelling of the thyroid that's most commonly caused 55 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: by low iodine, but the thyroid itself wasn't even recognized 56 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: and illustrated until Leonardo da Vinci drew it in fifteen hundred. 57 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: The name thyroid didn't exist until sixteen fifty six, when 58 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: Thomas Wharton named it using a word for shield because 59 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: of the resemblance in shapes to ancient Grecian shields. In 60 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: eighteen twenty, Jean Francois Quande made the connection between iodine 61 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: and goiter and began to use iodine as a treatment. 62 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: By eighteen thirty one, iodine used as a prophylaxis to 63 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: prevent thyroid disease was proposed by a Brazilian doctor, but 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: even so conclusive scientific literature establishing iodine as a necessity 65 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: to thyroid function was not published until nineteen o seven 66 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: in a paper by doctor David Marine, and it was 67 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: Marine's work in thyroid research that eventually led to iodized 68 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: salt as a standard approach to preventing thyroid disease as 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: a public health initiative. I like, how uh it was 70 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: nineteen o seven when that happened, But using seaweed to 71 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: treat goiter from thousands of years before they were onto it. 72 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: They just hadn't done all the math on what exactly 73 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: in the seaweed was fixing. The seaweed has lots of 74 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: iodine and it that's what was up with that. In 75 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: the late eighteen nineties, knowledge about the thyroid really started 76 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: to accelerate as Adolph Magnus Levy made the connection between 77 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: thyroid function and metabolic rate. Radium was used to treat 78 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: a patient's goiter in nineteen o five by physician Robert Abbey, 79 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: and the term hyper thyroidism was coined in nineteen ten 80 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: by Charles H. Mayo, but descriptions of that condition actually 81 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: date back to the eighteen twenties, and for a long 82 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: time the only real treatment for hyper thyroidism was surgery, 83 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: but it was so risky that often doctors waited until 84 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: the patient its illness was pretty advanced to perform the surgery, 85 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: and that meant that the patient by that point was 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: already in a weakened state, which only reduced the likelihood 87 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: of a successful outcome. There was actually a pretty high 88 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: mortality rate for that surgery. In George de Heavnessy developed 89 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: the idea of radioactive tracers to study metabolic pathways. A 90 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,119 Speaker 1: tracer per Meriam Webster as a substance used to trace 91 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: the course of a chemical or biological process. He went 92 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: on to receive a Nobel Prize for his work, but 93 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: not for another two decades, and in the early nineteen hundreds, 94 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: research into thyroid function and disease was taking place in 95 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: a number of different hospitals and medical research centers, because 96 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: it really had, as we said, accelerated in terms of 97 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: what we knew about thyroid and thyroid disease in the 98 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: decades leading up to that, But it was not until 99 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties that a breakthrough idea occurred to a 100 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: physician to use radioactivity in the treatment of hyper thyroidism. 101 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 1: And to get into that, we have to talk about 102 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: Saul Hurts. Saul Hurts was born on April twentieth, nineteen 103 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: o five, in Cleveland, Ohio. His parents, Erin and Bertha Hurts, 104 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: were Polish immigrants who raised Saul and his six brothers 105 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: in an Orthodox Jewish household. After a public school, Saul 106 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: went to the University of Michigan and then on to 107 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: medical school at Harvard. After he got his medical degree 108 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: in ninety nine, he did his internship and residency in 109 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: Cleveland before moving to Boston. Starting in nineteen thirty one, 110 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: he was at the thyroid clinic at Boston's Massachusetts General Hospital, 111 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: and five years into his time at that position, in 112 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: November of nineteen thirty six, he attended a lunch at 113 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: Harvard Medical School in which Carl Compton was giving a lecture, 114 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: and Compton, who was the president of m i T 115 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: at the time, had entitled his talk what Physics Can 116 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: Do for Biology and Medicine, and in it he discussed 117 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: the concept of making radioactive isotopes of common elements. After 118 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: the lecture was over, Hurts asked Compton a question, could 119 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: iodine be made radioactive? He was thinking about a practical 120 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: application stion of the science that Compton had discussed in 121 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: the talk, which was using radioactive iodine, which theoretically only 122 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: the thyroid could absorb, to address thyroid issues. Compton didn't 123 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: really know the answer to the question off hand, so 124 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: he noted the question, intending to follow up with Hurts later. 125 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: It took a month, and when Compton followed up on it, 126 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: he apologized. That letter is dated December six and it reads, 127 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: dear doctor Hurts, to my chagrin, I have just come 128 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: across the memorandum which I made on your question about 129 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: the radioactivity of iodine. Iodine can be made artificially radioactive. 130 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: It has a half period of decay of twenty five 131 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: minutes in amidst of gamma raise and beta raise electrons. 132 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: Is put in parenthesis with a maximum energy of two 133 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: point one million volts. It is probable that there are 134 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: several other periods of decay, but if so, they correspond 135 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: to types of radioactivity like the one indicated, and they 136 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: are not yet very definitely established and his response letter data. 137 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: Eight days later, on December, Hurts thanked Professor Compton and wrote, quote, 138 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: the fact that iodine is selectively taken up by the 139 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: thyroid gland when injected into the body makes it possible 140 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: to hope that iodine, which has made radioactive and which 141 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: loses its radioactivity as rapidly as you indicated, would be 142 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: a useful method of therapy in cases of overactivity of 143 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: the thyroid gland. And then promised Carl Compton that he 144 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: would relay the results of any of the tests that 145 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: they conducted on animals using radioactive iodi and Saul Hurts 146 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: was ready to start exploring this idea in the lab, 147 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that after we first 148 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: pause for a little sponsor break. Saul Hurts, along with 149 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: James Howard Means, who was his supervisor at the hospital 150 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: and was actually the man who established Massachusetts General Hospitals 151 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: Thyroid Unit, reached out to the physics community. To put 152 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: their plan into action, they joined forces with Robbie Evans 153 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: and Arthur Roberts of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to 154 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 1: combine the work of the physicists and physicians to treat 155 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: hyper thyroidism. The team started working with the isotope iodine 156 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: or just I in rabbits. They used a test group 157 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: of four dozen animals. The rabbits thyroids took up the I, 158 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: which was of great indicator that Hurts his idea would work. 159 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: When the rabbits were tested after the I was administered, 160 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: it was found that their thyroid glands had quote nine 161 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: times the concentration of radioactive iodine as that found in 162 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: the liver. Additionally, the rabbits, among the group with hyper 163 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: plastic thyroid glands, which were glands that had additional growth 164 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: from cell proliferation, had an even greater retention of radioactive 165 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: iodine in the thyroid tissue than those who had healthy 166 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: thyroid glands. So the rabbits with abnormalities and their thyroids 167 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: actually took up more of this radioactive isotope than the 168 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: as that were healthy. And at this point, the I 169 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: was being used as a tracer to diagnose thyroid issues, 170 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: it was not yet at the phase where it was 171 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: being used as a treatment. In a write up of 172 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: this initial success, Hurts and his team stated, quote, it 173 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: is therefore logical to suppose that, when strongly active materials 174 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: are available, the concentration power of the hyperplastic and neoplastic 175 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: thyroid for radioactive iodine maybe of clinical or therapeutic significance. 176 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: This offered up hope as well for an alternative to 177 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: thyroid surgery, one that was far less invasive and consequently 178 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: less dangerous. This was, however, very early on. There was 179 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: also one fundamental problem that twenty five minute half life. 180 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: In very basic terms, the isotope decayed so quickly that 181 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: it had to be used immediately after creation or it 182 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: would just be useless before it could actually treat the 183 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: thyroid tissue. Hurts is Boston group was sharing their information 184 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: with another team on the West coast at the University 185 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: of California, Berkeley. The California team, headed by Mayo Soli 186 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: and Joseph Hamilton's conscripted the help of two other scientists, 187 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: Glenn Seaborg and Jack living Goood, who had access to 188 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,479 Speaker 1: a cyclotron that's an early particle accelerator apparatus that accelerates 189 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: atomic and subatomic particles in a constant magnetic field, and 190 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: the cyclotron had only been patented for four years before this, 191 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: so it was still a very new technology. Using the cyclotron, 192 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: Seaborg and Jack living Good were able to create new 193 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: iodine isotopes. First, I won thirty with a half life 194 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: of twelve hours, and eventually I won thirty one. I 195 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: won thirty one has an eight day half life. These 196 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: longer half lives made these isotopes good candidates for Hurtz's treatment. 197 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: The longer half life meant that doctors would have time 198 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: to treat the problematic thyroid tissue between the isotopes creation 199 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: and the point where it became useless. And as the 200 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: California team was working with the cyclotron to create those 201 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: new isotopes, the Boston team was working with humans to 202 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: test whether they ear thyroids like those of the rabbits 203 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: in the earlier tests, would uptake the radioactive iodine, and 204 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: they had positive results. The data collected from those early 205 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: tests was also used to determine procedure and dosage guidelines 206 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: for human patients once they moved into the treatment phase, 207 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: and once those new isotopes were established and could be 208 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: replicated at the Boston Lab after it had acquired its 209 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: own cyclotron, it was time for a true clinical trial. 210 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: In January, Saul Hurts treated his first human patient with 211 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: hyper thyroid using a combination of I one thirty and 212 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: I one thirty one. This is a patient identified in 213 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: his notes as Elizabeth D. It was the birth of 214 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: nuclear medicine. It is often referred to as the first 215 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: and the gold standard and targeted radio nuclide therapy. Hurts 216 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: that his team treated additional patients at the rate of 217 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: one a month, tracking their progress after receiving the radio 218 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: iodine therapy, and most of them had significant improvement in 219 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: their conditions. The Cleveland Press ran a story about Hurts 220 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: his work under the headline former Clevelander developed first atomic 221 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: medical cure. After initial success with the treatment, Hurts began 222 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: to take on more patients as candidates for radio iodine treatment, 223 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: and in two he expanded his work with radio iodine 224 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: therapy and began clinical trials of treatment for patients with 225 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: thyroid cancer. And this was actually something that he had 226 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: begun working on, at least in its theoretical form as 227 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: early as nineteen thirty seven, when those initial rabbit trials 228 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: for hyperthyroidism were underway. This three starch had gotten the 229 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: attention of the medical community early on. In two the 230 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: Mayo Clinic arranged for one of their physicians, Dr. F. 231 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: Raymond Keating, Jr. To spend six months in Boston working 232 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: with the researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital to learn about 233 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: their work with radioactive iodine. Later, the Mayo Clinics Dr 234 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: Samuel Haynes wrote of this period quote, when ray Keating 235 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: finished his fellowship, we asked Howard Means to let him 236 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: go to the m g H for six months. We 237 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: were a specially interested in having him see what Means 238 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,239 Speaker 1: Salt Hurts and Rulan Rawlson were doing with radio iodine, 239 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: a program which as you know, was carried out with 240 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: Robilie Evans and Wendell Peacock from m I T raised 241 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: day in Boston was very successful, and when he came 242 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: back he had arranged with Evans to have small amounts 243 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: of I one one sent to him to be used 244 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: in some studies in chicks. Haines also described the Mayo 245 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: clinics first use of I one in thyroid treatment in 246 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: the same writing, which was a letter that he was 247 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: writing to a colleague at Cornell, and he wrote of 248 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: the patient, who was a woman who had been quite 249 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: ill and for whom surgery would have been a highly 250 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: dangerous prospect. He wrote that she had a good outcome 251 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: with the I one thirty one treatment. So this treatment 252 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: developed through Hurts. His work was indeed one spreading to 253 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: other clinics and being used by other doctors, and was 254 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: saving people from very high risk surgeries. But Hurts had 255 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: the unfortunate timing of developing this breakthrough treatment at the 256 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: same time that World War Two was brewing. Saal Hurts 257 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: put aside his medical research temporarily in nine in forty 258 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: three and joined the Navy to fight against Hitler's Nazi regime. 259 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: But before he shipped out, Hurts, who did not want 260 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: work in this new field to be hampered by his absence, 261 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: met with a private practice doctor who worked part time 262 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: at m g H, and that was Dr Earl M. Chapman. 263 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: Chapman had continued to make time for medical research even 264 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: while running his own practice, and he was ineligible for 265 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: military service, so Hurts asked him if he would keep 266 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: working with Hurts his roster of thyroid patients, and Chapman 267 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: probably flattered agreed and continued the work that Hurts had begun. 268 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: But when Saul Hurts returned from the war, there were 269 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: problems between the two men. Chapman didn't want to give 270 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: up the project and give it back to its originator 271 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: after his two years of involvement, and of course Hurts 272 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: wanted his research project back, but he wasn't given his 273 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: old position at MGH. Instead he took a position at 274 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: the Beth Israel Hospital. Yeah, there are many um stories 275 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: that are told among their colleagues about the fights that 276 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: broke out of this issue. Uh. And then those two 277 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: former colleagues eventually found themselves just each running their own trials. 278 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: And then they both wrote papers about them. And Chapman 279 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: actually finished his paper first and submitted it to the 280 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: Journal of the American Medical Association for review and publication. 281 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: This kicked off some drama, and we'll get to that 282 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: paper and the rivalry between the two of them and 283 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: how that was stirred up after we take a quick 284 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: break and hear from one of our sponsors. So though 285 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: Chapman had beaten Hurts to the finish line, on writing 286 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: the paper itself, he didn't get published. First, the Journal 287 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: of the American Medical Association returned his paper and said 288 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: it needed to be edited for length before it could 289 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: be published. And in the meantime, the editor, who knew 290 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: that Hurts had been the one to spearhead the work 291 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: in this field and yet had not even been mentioned 292 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: in Chapman's paper, reached out to Saul Hurts and encouraged 293 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: him to do his own right up as quickly as possible. 294 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: So Hurts, along with Arthur Roberts, finished his own paper 295 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: recounting the methods and results of his trials treating hyper 296 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: thyroid patients with IE one. The end of all this 297 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: jockeying was that the Journal of the American Medical Association 298 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: published both the Chapman and Hurts papers, both on the 299 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: same topic, both researched in the same hospital, printed in 300 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: the same issue on May eleven six. Both scientists findings 301 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: were made available to the Journal of the American Medical 302 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: Association's readership, and if nothing else, two papers on exactly 303 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: the same topic with only minor differences and treatment methodology 304 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: achieved one thing. It made nuclear medicine a really hot 305 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: topic and established radio iodi in therapy as an effective 306 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: way to treat thyroid disease. Yeah, they had been writing 307 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: other papers leading up to that, but that was really 308 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: the paper that was, like, we have figured out how 309 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: to treat hyper thyroid. Here's how we do it. Here 310 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: the methods, And they both essentially did the same thing. 311 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: Depending on whose account you read, chapman approach was a 312 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: little less careful in terms of dosage and like how 313 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: he he managed patient treatment, but um, they were still very, 314 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: very similar. And interestingly enough, that was not the end 315 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: of the squabbling over academic papers and who got credit 316 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: for the research that led to this game changing treatment. 317 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: In reference to an earlier paper on the radio iodine 318 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: work they were doing, an mg H Saul Hurts wrote 319 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: the following letter to a doctor gold forbe on April twelfth. 320 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: He writes quote with reference to the article submitted for 321 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: publication by doctors s. Hurts and Arthur Roberts, A change 322 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: is desired with the addition of Professor Robili D Evans 323 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: as a third co author. He has shared considerably in 324 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: the time devoted to this problem, and we have decided 325 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: that full credit to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology cannot 326 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: be given without including him as co author. His title 327 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: is Assistant Professor of Physics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 328 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: and we would appreciate the addition to the authorship of 329 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: him on the publication. But many years later, in Dr 330 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: Arthur Roberts wrote a scathing letter to Dr John Stanbury, 331 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: who wrote a book titled A Constant Ferment, The History 332 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: of the MGH Thyroid Clinic and the work that was 333 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: done there from en n Apparently Stanbury interviewed Evans and 334 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: spoke very highly of him in the book. Roberts, who 335 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: had received pre publication manuscript, just tour into Evans. In 336 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: this letter. Roberts had actually worked for Evans at m 337 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: I T. And, according to his account quote Evans made 338 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: it condition of my employment. I wish I still had 339 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: the letter that his name was to appear on all publications. 340 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: Even at the time, this was unusual and occasioned much comment. 341 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: It led to the contretemps concerning the late edition of 342 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: his name to our first paper. It was on the 343 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: second paper, But after that Saul and I felt sufficiently 344 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: secure that we ignored him in our subsequent publications. Had 345 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: he actually participated it in the work there would have 346 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: been no problem including him. Roberts continued his takedown of 347 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: Evans over the course of several pages, calling him, among 348 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: other things, quote a thoroughly unprincipled racist manipulator. Also cautioned 349 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: author Stanbury, quote I would believe nothing on this subject 350 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: from Chapman, whose self interest is obvious, and who bungled, 351 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: whether deliberately or not. The follow up on Hurts's original 352 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: series when Hurts joined the Navy, apparently despite all of 353 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: roberts and passioned rhetoric, though Stanbury did not make changes 354 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: to its manuscript, this whole mess of exchanges is a 355 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: good reminder that even people who do important and groundbreaking 356 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: work are often mired in their own personal conflicts that 357 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: are not necessarily apparent to the outside. I yeah, it's 358 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: such a This sort of thing does happen in academia 359 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: with some frequency. Um, if you have any friends who 360 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: are maybe professors or researchers, they probably have similar stories. 361 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: I should also note that, Um, in the midst of 362 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: that big shake up, Evans went with Chapman while Roberts 363 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: went with Hurts, So they sort of set raided into 364 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: two teams. And that's kind of why there is so 365 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: much friction between them. But as for Saul Hurts, he 366 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: continued his work in radio iodine therapy. In fall of 367 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: ninety six, he set up the Radioactive Isotope Research Fund, 368 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: and a few years later that fund paid for the 369 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: establishment of the Radioactive Isotope Research Institute, with offices in 370 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: Boston and New York. Hurts believe that the study of 371 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: thyroid cancer and research into its possible treatments could lead 372 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: to breakthroughs in the treatment of all cancers, and he 373 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: was happy to discuss this work with the media anytime 374 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: they asked. Unfortunately, though, that work was cut short. Saul 375 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: Hurts died suddenly at the age of forty five, and 376 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: they had a heart attack on July. His daughter, Barbara, 377 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: who was just three when her father died, has become 378 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: the steward of his story and legacy and has worked 379 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: with professionals in the medical community to make sure that 380 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: his contributions to medical science are documented and remembered. To 381 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: that end, she's set up a digital archive online and 382 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: has made some of a correspondence and research available. Yeah, 383 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: I used a lot of that in any of these 384 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: letters that were quoting back and forth, often came from 385 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: her her archive. UH. In the Society of Nuclear Medicine 386 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: and Molecular Imaging established the Doctor Saul Hurt's Lifetime Achievement 387 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: Award to recognize those who have quote made outstanding contributions 388 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: to radio nuclide therapy. That's awesome. Yeah, so my personal 389 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: thanks to Dr Saul Hurts because now my cat has 390 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: benefited directly from his work. Uh. And that is because 391 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: this process that he came up with in the nineteen thirties, 392 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: literally just after hearing a lecture and going, hu, I 393 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: wonder if I could use that UM still works. It 394 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: is a very common treatment with a really high rate 395 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: of success. Uh. So much so that with only minor changes, 396 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: it is really pretty much one of the recommended treatments 397 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: today in both people and animals. Yeah, thank you, Saw Hurts. 398 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: I know people who have had it, and only one cat, 399 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: which is yours. Yeah. Yes, he went to what I 400 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: called radio I had. I'd sleepaway camp for a few 401 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: days because he was radioactive. Now he's home. We haven't 402 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: had his follow up blood work yet, but all signs 403 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: point to successful outcome. UM. But it is just fascinating 404 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: and cool. It's like I said, it's one of those 405 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: things that it is literally a ninety year old treatment 406 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: that has come up with just through like this moment 407 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: of insight, and yet it is still like really benefiting 408 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: people's lives and is still, as we said, the gold 409 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: standard of treatment. I have another sort of um medical 410 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: thing in listener mail is from our listener Stephanie, and 411 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: she writes, Dear Tracy and Holly, thank you so much 412 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: for the Dr Alice Hamilton episode, which I listened to 413 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: with much chagrin. I'll admit when I read this letter 414 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: that scared me a little, but yeah, I always kind 415 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: of brace for impact. Her next sentence illustrates why. She says, 416 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: I spent nearly twenty years working in toxicology, occupational health 417 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: and environmental health information and never heard of her. In fact, 418 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: I spent several years helping to create the site talks Tutor, 419 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: which included looking at textbooks and histories of toxicology and 420 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: occupational health, and I did not come across her name, 421 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 1: which makes me sad. Uh So she also sent us 422 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: some some cute things, some pens and little notepads. Um. 423 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: She writes with warm regards, Stephanie, thank you so much, Stephanie. 424 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: I feel like she is one of those people Alice 425 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: Hamilton's who just doesn't get credit for really all the 426 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: ways many of us have benefited from her work every 427 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: day without even knowing it. So thank you. Uh. If 428 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,239 Speaker 1: you would like to write to us, you can do 429 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: so at History podcast at house to Works dot com. 430 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media as Missed 431 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: in History and Missed in History dot com is the 432 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: website where you can find all of our episodes that 433 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: have ever existed and show notes for any of the 434 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: ones that Tracy and I have worked on. Would you 435 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: like to subscribe to the podcast we would like for 436 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: you to do that. You can do that on the 437 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 438 00:24:52,880 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. 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