1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class from works 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracey Wilson, and uh, we're gonna have 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of a black widow story for today's topic. 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: And I feel like this topic was actually suggested by 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: a listener, but I feel super guilty because I cannot, 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: for the life of me find an email or other 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: communication about it to verify that also looked and I 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: can't either, which means it was probably on Facebook or Twitter, 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: which is impossible to find really old stuff on. So 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: if you were the person that suggested this, thank you, 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: and I apologize for not retaining who you're who you were. 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: But if you weren't a person that suggested this, then 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: this may be a fun ride for you. We're gonna 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: talk today about Mary Ann Cotton and she is often 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: referred to as a Victorian serial killer, sometimes the first 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: female serial killer. Some headlines will even list her as 18 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: the first serial killer. Uh, we don't really have her 19 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: as a household name though, which is kind of an 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: interesting factor, although it's likely to change in the not 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: too distant future. And we'll talk about that more at 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: the end. Her story is really fascinating and it's one 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: of those things where as is often the case with criminals, 24 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: you're going to start to see some patterns emerge in 25 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: the behavior. Uh, and we will discuss all of that. 26 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: So we're just going to dive right into it because 27 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: this one was a little bit long. In October eighteen 28 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: thirty two, she was born Mary Ann Robson and Low Moorsley, 29 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: which is a mining town in County Durham in the 30 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: north of England. Her parents were Michael and Margaret Robson. 31 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: Michael worked in the coal mines and the Robson's had 32 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: two other children, Margaret, who died when she was quite young, 33 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: and Robert, who was two years younger than Mary Anne, 34 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: and when Mary Anne was eight, the family moved to 35 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: the village of Merton in County Durham for another mining job. 36 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: Michael Robson, the father, was unfortunately killed on the job 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: in eighteen forty two, so the children were still very 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: young at this point. Mary Anne would not have yet 39 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: turned ten, and Michael's body is said to have been 40 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: delivered to the family's home in a coal sack stamped 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: with property of South Hetton Coal Company. In eighteen forty four, 42 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: a Methodist Sunday school open in the village, and Marianne 43 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: taught there. In eighteen forty six, she became a nursemaid 44 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: for the family of Edward Potter, the manager of the 45 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: colliery where her father had died. Later on in life, 46 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: Marianne became something of a social climber, and there's some 47 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: speculation that her time working for the Potter family, exposed 48 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: to a more upscale life than her own family had been, 49 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: gave her aspirations to a greater life, and she worked 50 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: for the Potter for three years, and then she turned 51 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: briefly to dressmaking as a trade around eighteen forty nine. 52 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: This is one of those interesting things that I kept 53 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: turning up while I was doing research for this. A 54 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: lot of headlines will Uh sort of tout her as 55 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: a dressmaker serial killer, but she didn't really seem to 56 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: stick with dressmaking very long, So I'm not sure why 57 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: people gloam onto that, unless they're just trying to somehow 58 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: to fame those of us who liked to make dresses. 59 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: But she also met a young man around this same 60 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: time named William Mowbray, and Mowbray was fairly new to town. 61 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: He had moved there for job opportunities at the mine, 62 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: and the pair would marry a few years later on 63 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: July eighth, eighteen fifty two, at the Newcastle Register Office. 64 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: It's possible that Marianne was already pregnant by Mowbray, which 65 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: is why the couple opted for a quick register office 66 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: wedding instead of a union at the chapel of the 67 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: church where she was teaching Sunday school. The two of 68 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: them moved to Cornwall not long after their wedding, and 69 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: the next several years for the Mowbray's are fairly undocumented. 70 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: It does appear that William worked for a time in 71 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: railway construction. But what we do know is that four 72 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: year after they had left Merton they then returned, and 73 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: at this point they had a child with them, named 74 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: Margaret Jane. And this is where already the facts start 75 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: to get a little funky and murky, because Marianne allegedly 76 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: told people there in Merton that in fact they had 77 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,119 Speaker 1: had three other children in this brief for year period 78 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: that they were gone, but that all of those children 79 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: had died, and so some people like to sort of 80 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: list those children as the first victims. But we don't 81 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: actually have any uh substantiation that those children even existed. Uh. 82 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: But again, they do sometimes get lumped in when you 83 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: see like the final body count, sometimes there's an extra 84 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: three in there that maybe didn't even exist as real people. 85 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: Once they settled back in Merton, William Mowbray started working 86 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: at the company store for the colliery, but he didn't 87 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: keep that job for very long. In eighteen fifty eight, 88 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: he followed a job as a stoker to South Hetton. 89 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: Not long after that, the two of them had a daughter. 90 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: She was born on September twenty, teen fifty eight. Yeah, 91 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: and that daughter, Isabella, lived longer than any of the 92 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 1: other children that Marianne was involved with. Uh. In June 93 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: of eighteen sixty their daughter, Margaret Jane, who had been 94 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: with them when they moved back to Merton, died. Her 95 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: precise age at this time is unclear, although she is 96 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: believed to have been younger than three, and her cause 97 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: of death was listed as scarlet fever and exhaustion. In 98 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: October eighteen sixty one, the couple had another daughter, who 99 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: they also named Margaret Jane. The family moved around the 100 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: same time to Hendon and Sunderland, where William worked first 101 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: a shopkeeper, then as a fireman, and eventually as a 102 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: stoker on a steamer. Yeah, it often always comes back 103 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: to working somehow in a coal mine or other uh 104 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: enterprise at a colliery. But the couple had a son 105 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: named John Robert in July of eighteen sixty three, although 106 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: he died several months after his first birthday in September 107 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: eighteen s four, and his cause of death was listed 108 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: as diarrhea. William died in January eighteen six five, and 109 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: his death certificate lists both diarrhea and typus fever as 110 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: his causes of death. At this point, the couple had 111 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: been married for twelve years. There have been stories over 112 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: the years that the doctor who signed William's death certificate 113 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: observed Mary Anne singing and dancing through the window, although 114 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: those stories have never been substantiated with another witness or 115 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: anything like that. There are also other descriptions of Mary 116 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: Anne being distraught over the loss of her husband. Yeah, 117 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: and I wanted to point out these two varying accounts 118 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: of her behavior after the series of deaths, in particularly 119 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: that of her husband, because there is some sorting out 120 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,679 Speaker 1: that always has to be done when you're talking about 121 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: sort of a uh, famed or at least notorious killer. Uh, 122 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: where you know stories that corroborate, and I'm making the 123 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: air quotes there corroborate their status, kind of as monsters 124 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,679 Speaker 1: come out that may or may not have ever been real. Uh. 125 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: But what we do know is that William's life insurance 126 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: paid out the sum of thirty five pounds to marry Anne, 127 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: and she used some of that money to relocate with 128 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: her two remaining daughters, Isabella and Mary Jane, to see 129 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: him harbor. And we are going to talk about their 130 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: life once they get there. After we have a brief 131 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: word from a sponsor. Getting back to the story of 132 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: Mary Anne Cotton, She's often called Mary Anne Cotton, but 133 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: she actually didn't have that name until quite late in 134 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: the game. Uh. So, Mary Anne began seeing a man 135 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: named Joseph Natras almost immediately after arriving in sem Harbor, 136 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: and there's been some speculation by various biographers through the 137 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: years that she may have actually begun an affair with 138 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: Naturs while she was still married to William, but we 139 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: don't have any evidence one way or another. That's another 140 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: one of those cases where it it kind of supports 141 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: this idea of her as an evil woman, but we 142 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: just don't know. But regardless of when their affair began, 143 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: Natras was already married, and he actually had been since 144 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty, although it is unclear whether and whether Marianne 145 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: knew about his wife or not. Just as Marianne's family 146 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: was in this perpetual state of morning before arriving in 147 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: Seam Harbor, life continued on this way. The second Margaret 148 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: Jane died on April thirtieth, eighteen sixty five, and her 149 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: death was attributed to typhus fever. At this point, Marianne's mother, 150 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: who had remarried to a man named George Stott, was 151 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: living in Newseum, not far away, and she decided that 152 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: the remaining daughter, Isabella, should actually come and live with her, 153 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: and Isabella stayed with her grandmother and her step grandfather 154 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: until Margaret died in March of eighteen sixty seven. That 155 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: death was attributed to hepatitis, and just six weeks after that, 156 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: Isabella died. And we're going to talk a little bit 157 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: more about those deaths in context of the timeline in 158 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: just a moment. So at this point. Just to to 159 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: to sum up Marianne. The deaths include Marianne's father, her mother, 160 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: her husband, and a bunch of children. Yes, okay, I'm 161 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: just making sure we're keeping an accurate count. After the 162 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: second Margaret Jane died, Isabella had moved away. Her relationship 163 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: with Joseph Natras had sputtered out, and he and his 164 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: wife had moved to find work elsewhere. Marianne was on 165 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: the move again, and this time it was back to 166 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: Sunderland and she started working as a nurse at the 167 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: Sunderland Infirmary, House of Recovery for the Cure of Contagious Fever, 168 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: Dispensary and Humane Society. And that was in the summer 169 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: of eighteen sixty So this was a hospital for the poor. Uh. 170 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: It really had far less than ideal conditions and Marianne though, 171 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: was apparently quite good at her work there. She was 172 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: praised as a fine worker and one of the one 173 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: of the physicians there described her as one of their 174 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: best nurses. After she started working at the hospital, Marianne 175 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: met a man named George Ward. They had a brief 176 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: courtship and they got married on August eighteen sixty five. 177 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: Was a small church ceremony. The marriage was really not 178 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: a very happy one and it only lasted for fifteen 179 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: months because George died on October sixty six. His death 180 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: was attributed to quote English cholera and typhoid fever. Yeah, George, Uh, 181 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: she met him while he was in the hospital, so 182 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting that she would marry up with 183 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,479 Speaker 1: him him having not really been in a great financial situation. 184 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: But shortly after George died, there was another man in 185 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: town named James Robinson who became a widower. His wife, Hannah, 186 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: died at the age of twenty seven, and at this 187 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: point James was left with five children to care for. 188 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: So even though he had some sisters in the mix 189 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: who could help out, he really needed someone to be 190 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: there to help him with the children almost all the time. 191 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: So he advertised for a housekeeper and mary Anne responded 192 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: to that ad and she moved in shortly thereafter, at 193 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: the end of eighteen sixty six. Not long after this, 194 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: in March in April of eighteen sixty seven, where the 195 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: aforementioned deaths of Marianne's mother, which took place nine days 196 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: after Maryant traveled there to see her and helped like 197 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: after while she was sick and her daughter Isabella. Before 198 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: May of that year, three of Robinson's children had also died. 199 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: Isabella and two of the Robinson children had been insured 200 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: before their deaths, and mary Anne was also pregnant. Robinson 201 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: was the father. The couple married on August eleventh of 202 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty seven, and mary Anne listed her name on 203 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: the marriage certificate as mary Anne Mowbray, kind of skipping 204 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: over George Ward as though he had never existed. Uh 205 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: their child. Their new child, Margaret Isabella. You'll find she 206 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: repeats children's names a lot, was born on November twenty 207 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: nine of eighteen sixty seven, and Margaret is Bella lived 208 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: mere months before dying of convulsions in early spring of 209 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty eight. In June of eighteen sixty nine, James 210 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: and Marianne had another child. This was the son named George. 211 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: Later that year, it would become a parent to James 212 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: that Marianne had been stealing from him by taking money 213 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: she was supposed to deposit into their building Society account, 214 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: then falsifying entries about it in the ledger to make 215 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: it look like she had made those deposits as instructed 216 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: she also ran up a bunch of bets in his 217 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: name without his knowledge, so you can imagine this turned 218 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: into quite a fight. And in the midst of all 219 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: of this arguing and wrangling that took place once all 220 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: of Marianne's fiscal indiscretions came to light because James Robinson 221 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: was much better off than her previous husband's. In the 222 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: midst of all of this arguing and wrangling that took 223 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: place once these fiscal indiscrections indiscretions came to late, Maryanne 224 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: somehow worked it where she asked James, as part of this, 225 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: to take out insurance policies on himself, off his two 226 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: remaining children from his prior marriage and their son, George. 227 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: And James refused, and mary Anne, in an angry fit, 228 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: left with young George. She moved out according to some accounts, 229 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: but she'll say later that it wasn't quite that way. 230 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: James decided to sell their house, so he boarded it up. 231 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: He moved in with one of his sisters, uh, and 232 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: then eventually he moved into a new home of his own. 233 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: At the end of the year, mary Anne returned to 234 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: town and left the infant George with a friend while 235 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: she went on an errand, but she never came back 236 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: for the child. Little George was eventually brought to his 237 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: father in early eighteen seventy. The time from late eighteen 238 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: sixty nine to the spring of eighteen seventy one is 239 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: kind of hazy in Maryanne's life. She would later say 240 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: that she had gone back to her home with Robinson 241 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: and carrying George, thinking that she was going home and 242 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: they were going to make up and set things right, 243 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: but that she felt like she had just been kicked 244 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: out into the street when she saw that their home 245 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: had been boarded up, so she was like, all right, 246 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: I'm out of here. Uh. There's been some speculation during 247 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: this period where we don't have a clear sense of 248 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: exactly what she was doing, that she may have worked 249 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: as a prostitute or a petty thief during this time 250 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: to make ends meet, but there's really no substantiation for that. 251 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: What we do know is that at some point she 252 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: did actually do some work for a man named Edward 253 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: Backhouse at the Smyrna House Home for Fallen Women, it, 254 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: possibly as a laundress. During this time, Marianne met her 255 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: fourth husband, Frederick Cotton. Finally were to the Cotton part 256 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: he was. She was introduced to him by his sister. 257 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: Frederick had been married with four children, but two of 258 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: his daughters had died of typhus and his wife had 259 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: died of consumption in late eighteen sixty nine. After his 260 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: sister Margaret moved in to help him. She connected the 261 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: two and in early eighteen seventy Marianne went to Walbottle 262 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: to visit the Cotton family, and Margaret, the sister of Frederick, 263 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: had sixty pounds in the bank that her brother was 264 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: going to inherit. She suddenly died on March twenty five 265 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: after suffering from stomach paints. Her cause of death was 266 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: actually reported as pleural pneumonia, and true to a pattern 267 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: that's developing, Marianne was pregnant uh some time around this 268 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: time with Frederick's child. She left wall Bottle briefly and 269 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: words the housekeeper for a German doctor named Hefferman. During 270 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: a short time that Marianne kept house for him, several 271 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: of his items went missing, but another employee was blamed 272 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: for it and fired. Marianne wound up quitting and was 273 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: back in wall Bottle by the summer of eighteen seventy. Yeah, 274 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: so that was really a very short period, like a 275 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: six weeks ish maybe month. Uh, don't have a clear 276 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: sense of the actual times, but it's sometime very briefly, 277 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: because we know that in late March she was there 278 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: and then she was back by the beginning of summer. 279 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: Marianne did get married to Frederick Cotton on September seventeenth 280 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: of eighteen seventy, and shortly thereafter she ensured Cotton's two sons. 281 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: In April of eight seventy one, Marianne moved to west 282 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: Auckland with Frederick Cotton, his two surviving sons, and their 283 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: new baby, Robert Robson. Marianne immediately made a very rash 284 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: and cruel move. She tried to put the younger of 285 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: Frederick's two sons, Charles Edward, into a workhouse. So a 286 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: workhouse was a horrible place for a child, or for 287 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: anyone really, but especially for an unaccompanied child. The children 288 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: who ended up there were normally born into circumstances where 289 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: there was just no other choice. But the Cottons were 290 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: not destitute at all. Maryanne just wanted to put the 291 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: child somewhere she wouldn't have to care for him. Workhouse 292 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: administrators were not willing to take a child who appeared 293 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: to have a perfectly acceptable home, although they had no 294 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: idea that the woman of this house was far more 295 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: dangerous than almost any fate that a child would face 296 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: at the workhouse, even though that was a really terrible 297 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: place to be. Once the family had moved to Stockland, 298 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: Frederick started to work at the colliery there, and coincidentally, 299 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: Marianne's old paramour, Joseph Naturals, was also working at that colliery. 300 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: Joseph's wife had passed away and he had no children, 301 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: so it's likely that Marianne arranged the move so that 302 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: she could hook up with him again. Frederick Cotton was 303 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: not around for long after the family settled in west Auckland. 304 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: He died on September two of eight seventy one of 305 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: typhoid and hepatitis. Naturals moved in with the remaining Cottons 306 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: three months later. So, after all this trouble Marianne had 307 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: gone to in order to orchestrate a reunion with Naturals, 308 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: you might think she'd savor her new fortune, but she 309 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: started working as a nurse for a while to do 310 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: a bachelor. Mr Quickmanning who was recovering from smallpox, had 311 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: no children, and he worked as an excise officer for Brewery, 312 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: so when short, he was a step up from what 313 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 1: Naturist could offer mary Anne. Over the course of several 314 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: weeks from March tenth to April one, eighteen seventy two, 315 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: Marianne worked to remove the burdens of Naturis and the 316 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: main remaining Cotton children from her life. The eldest son 317 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: died first, with his cause of death listed as gastric fever. 318 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: Baby Robert was the next victim on record as passing 319 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: from convulsions from teething, and finally Naturus died of typhoid 320 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 1: fever on April one. This left Charles Edward Cotton as 321 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: the only member of the family. Mary Anne tried some 322 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: pawn him off on an uncle that that didn't work out. 323 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: She moved with Charles Edwards to a smaller home, although 324 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: she still had enough space to take in lodgers, something 325 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: that she had done many times through the years that 326 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: to make to make extra money. By summer of eighteen 327 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: seventy two, so this was just a couple of months 328 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: after Naturus died, mary Anne was once again pregnant, possibly 329 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: with quick Manning's child. Believing that she was soon going 330 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: to be married to quick Manning, she asked her lodger, 331 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: William Lowry, to move out. She said that her soon 332 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: to be husband was not okay with her renting rooms 333 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: two men, but she did, however, continue to offer her 334 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: nursing services for hire. On July six, Marianne was visited 335 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 1: by a man named Thomas Riley who lived nearby, who 336 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: wanted to ask about nursing services for another smallpox patient, 337 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: and the conversation with the two of them turned out 338 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: to be pivotal because Riley was immediately suspicious of her. 339 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: He was pretty open about how burdened she felt and 340 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: having to take care of Cotton's son, Charles Edward. Marianne 341 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: even asked Riley, who worked as the assistant overseer of 342 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: poor relief for the town, if he would write an 343 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: order to send the child to the workhouse, and Riley 344 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: said he would do so, but only if Marianne was 345 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: going to go with Charles Edward, and she was insistent 346 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: that she was never going to do such a thing. 347 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: She was not going to a place like that, And 348 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: this conversation uh then turned to the rumors that mary 349 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: Anne was likely to soon be married to Quick Manning, 350 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: and Marianne said, yes, that was indeed likely, except for 351 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: the fact that this child that she was burdened with 352 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: was frankly an obstacle. So then, as was later recounted 353 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: in court testimony, mary Anne told Thomas Riley quote, perhaps 354 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: it won't matter, as I won't be troubled long. He'll 355 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: go like all the rest of the Cotton family. She 356 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: actually said this in front of the child, and Riley 357 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: sort of trying to smooth things over by mentioning how 358 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: hale and hearty this child appeared. Less than a week later, 359 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: Thomas Riley was walking by mary Anne's house when Marianne 360 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 1: appeared at the doorway and she told him that Charles 361 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: Edward was dead and she wanted him to come in 362 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: and view the body. Riley went immediately to the police 363 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: to report his suspicions that mary Anne had killed the child. 364 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: So Marianne did not know that Riley thought she was 365 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: a murderer, at least at first. I think was more 366 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: surreptitious than she was. The first clue came in the 367 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: form of their not being a death certificate. The doctor 368 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: who had been seeing Charles Edward, who was doctor Kilburn 369 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't make went out right away and they didn't explicitly 370 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: tell Mary Anne. So, but this is because a coroner's 371 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: inquiry had been requested. No death certificate meant that she 372 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: couldn't make a claim on the life insurance policy. So 373 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: this coroner's inquiry was formed and Dr Kilburn got permission 374 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: to perform a post mortem examination of Charles Edward's body. 375 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: Mary Anne was at this point informed of the situation, 376 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: and Kilburn examined the child's corpse there on a table 377 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: in Mrs Cotton's house. But Kilburn was sort of pressed 378 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: for time this jury, uh this coroner's inquiry jury was 379 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: convening like in a pub nearby, and they were basically 380 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: waiting on him to make his assessment and then report back. 381 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: And uh So, when he reported his findings to the 382 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: coroner's jury, he wasn't super confident. He had just felt 383 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: like he had to rush through everything, and he thought 384 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: it was possible that the child might have died of 385 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: gastro into ritis, but he really wasn't certain. And so 386 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: the jury, after deliberating briefly, just deemed the death to 387 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: have happened by natural causes. Because his actions had caused 388 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: her so much trouble, mary Anne wrote to Thomas Riley 389 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: and insisted that you pay for the child's funeral expenses, 390 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: which Riley did. So things may have appeared to be 391 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: settling at this point, but Riley still really strongly felt 392 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,239 Speaker 1: that wrongdoing had led to this child's demise, and he 393 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: continued to use his connections in local government to try 394 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: to get the case looked at more closely. Basically, anyone's 395 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: ear he could bend, he would, and he was very 396 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: quick to say I think this woman is a murderer. 397 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: Because of the coroner's inquiry, this whole episode had also 398 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 1: been reported in the papers. So mary Anne's fortunes started 399 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: to really fall apart. Her potential engagement to Quick Manning evaporated. 400 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: He wanted nothing to do with her. That's also meant 401 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: that Arianne basically became a pariah. She couldn't get nursing jobs, 402 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: she had no income. She sold all her furniture to 403 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: try to bring in some money, and she came down 404 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: with a sore throat and was sick in bed. But 405 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: when she asked a neighbor to call for a doctor, 406 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: the two that were summoned, one of which was Dr Kilburn, 407 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: refused to come to her in mid July, so this 408 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: had all happened in the early part of July, and 409 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: then in mid July I blew it was the seventeenth 410 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Kilburn began a series of tests on the stomach 411 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: contents of Charles Edward which he had collected during his postmortem. 412 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: Using a wrench test designed to detect the presence of 413 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: heavy heavy metals in biological material, Kilburn determined the child 414 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: had indeed been murdered by poisoning, and Marianne was arrested 415 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: the following day, July eighth, eighteen seventy two. Charles Edwards 416 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: body was exhumed on July twenty six. Then additional samples 417 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: from the body were taken by Dr Kilburn and sent 418 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: to Thomas Scattergood at Leeds School of Medicine for forensic 419 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: and alysis. And while Maryanne was in jail but before 420 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: her trial, she actually gave birth to another child. This 421 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: is the one that was believed to have been quick 422 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: Mannings and she uh She named this child a little 423 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: girl who was born on January tenth of eighteen seventy three. 424 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: Margaret Edith quick Manning Cotton. Marianne Cotton's trial lasted only 425 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: three days from March fifth in March seventh, eighteen seventy three, 426 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: which is kind of mind blowing since murder trials the 427 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,959 Speaker 1: day off and go on for weeks. This has she 428 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: had been charged in the murders of Charles Edward Cotton, 429 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: Joseph Naturals, Frederick Cotton, and Robert Robson Cotton, although she 430 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: was only tried for child Edwards murder. Yet it seems like, 431 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: though I was not able to confirm this that basically, 432 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: if she had been found innocent of this first murder charge, 433 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: they kind of had the other charges waiting in the wings, 434 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: so they would be like, then we're going to try 435 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: you on this one and then on this one. One 436 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: of the witnesses during this trial was a woman named 437 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: Jane Hedley, and she was a friend of mary Anne's. 438 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: It was interesting because she hadn't known her all that long, 439 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: but she kind of described her as a very close friend. 440 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,479 Speaker 1: So this is one of those moments where it's kind 441 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: of important to point out that Marianne really, uh, you know, 442 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: she had a charm about her. She could make people 443 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: feel very close to her like they were confident she 444 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: certainly had no problem attracting men. Uh. But this woman, 445 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: Jane Hedley, was present at the death of Joseph Natras, 446 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: and her description of it is quite gruesome and unsettling. 447 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: She talks a lot about his spasms and his fits 448 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: and mary Anne having to hold him down when he 449 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: had these convulsions. And Hedley also testified that Marianne did 450 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: indeed keep arsenic in a pot on the top shelf 451 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: of her pantry. Another witness, Marianne Dodd, testified that she 452 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: had bought arsenic and soft soap for Marianne Cotton after 453 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: the druggist refused to sell these items to Charles Edward. 454 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: There was an eighteen fifty one Arsenic Regulation Act that 455 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: had made it illegal to sell arsenic to children. Cotton 456 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: had told Dodd that she needed the supplies to treat 457 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: her bedstead for bed bugs. So dodds helped Cotton use 458 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: about half the arsenic to treat the bed and then 459 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: the other half was put into a pint jug. And 460 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 1: then for additional testimony, relatives of some of the deceased 461 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: were called to confirm that, yes, in fact, Marianne did 462 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: care for sick family members, which sounds initially kind of nice, 463 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: but then that followed up with and she also had 464 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: not allowed anyone else to do so she was okay 465 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: with people being there, but basically she wanted to do 466 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: all the nursing. While Dr Kilburn gave testimony, it was 467 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: really Scattergood who was the star. In terms of forensic evidence. 468 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: Scattergood testified the best based on his tests, he believed 469 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: Charles Edward had been given multiple doses of arsenic over 470 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: the course of several days. Scattergood had also found evidence 471 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: of lethal doses of arsenic and the exhume remains of 472 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: Joseph Naturis, Frederick Cotton, and the baby Robert. The defense 473 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: for mary And was based largely on this kind of 474 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: wacky idea that Charles edwards poisoning had been accidental, and 475 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: this was suggested that it either happened through ingesting residue 476 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: of this bedbug treatment or UH that he had inhaled 477 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: or otherwise ingested wallpaper debris that had flaked off and 478 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: been circulating in the air because arsenic was used in 479 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: some colors, so we'll talk about in a bit UH. 480 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: And the rest of the defense was really built around. 481 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: How preposterous an idea it was that a nurse and 482 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: a mother could kill the very people she was caring for. 483 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: Today we call this the no true Scotsman fallacy. No 484 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: true nurse and mother would do this. So, after less 485 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: than an hour of deliberation, the verdict was handed down. 486 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: Marianne Cotton was found guilty of poisoning her steps in. 487 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: So from the day that the verdict was handed down 488 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: to the day of her execution, mary Anne wrote a 489 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: number of letters to friends and family asking them to 490 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: petition on her behalf. She also contacted her still husband, 491 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: James Robinson. Remember they had never divorced, so she had 492 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: actually been marrying other men while she was already married, 493 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: and she asked James Robinson to bring the three children 494 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: that he had to visit her, which seems sort of 495 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: creepy and preposterous. She also arranged for her new baby 496 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: to be adopted by a couple who had been her 497 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: neighbors in west Auckland. Apparently a lot of people offered 498 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: to adopt this child that had been born there in 499 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: the prison. Mary Anne was put to death by hanging 500 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: on March seventy three, and during prison fifty people attended 501 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: the execution in the prison and a crowd of about 502 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: two hundred gathered outside. She maintained her claim of innocence 503 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: to the very end, and as she left her cell 504 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: and headed to her death, she allegedly said, Heaven is 505 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: my home. So at this point, I mean, we're talking 506 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: about a couple dozen probable murders are close to that, 507 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: and so it kind of makes people wonder, and it 508 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: comes up a lot in biographies. If she was such 509 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: a prolific killer, why is she not a household name 510 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: akin to Jack the Ripper or other famous killers throughout 511 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: the years. And Deborah Blum, who is the author of 512 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: the Poisoner's handbook Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine 513 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: in jazz Age, New York, wrote an interesting piece on this, 514 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: and she put forth the idea that one of the 515 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: reasons that Marianne Cotton hasn't become a household name in 516 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: these years since her arrest and and execution is that 517 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: she was associated with Arsenic. This was the time when 518 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: Arsenic was basically the superstar of poisoning. It's estimated between 519 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty five and eighteen eighty fort of all poisoning 520 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: homifides in Europe were the results of arsenic. Part of 521 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: the reason that arsenic was so common as a poison 522 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: was that it was so common period. It was in 523 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: all kinds of completely normal things. We've already talked about 524 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: how it was used to treat bed bugs. It was 525 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: also used in wallpaper, in tonics, in rat poison, in 526 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: fabric dye. Many of our listeners have seen and shared 527 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: with us articles about that lovely shade of green that 528 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: was super popular through the eighteen hundreds that was also 529 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: incredibly poisonous because it contained arsenic. Another thing is that 530 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: when eight hundred and twenty two survivors of arsenic poisoning 531 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: were interviewed by forensic chemists Rudolph Whitthouse in the late 532 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: tent nineteenth century is part of his research, fifteen of them, 533 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: so fifteen out of eight hundred twenty two reported having 534 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: tasted the metallic tinge of arsenic in the food or 535 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: beverage that they had consumed that was tainted. This means 536 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: that less than two percent of the people who survived 537 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: arsenic point at poisoning noticed anything amiss, which, uh gives 538 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: you some idea as to why arsenic was quite popular 539 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: to use to poison people. Yeah, it was so easy 540 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: to just slip into a food, especially if it was 541 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: you know, something like notemeal or a soup, or drop 542 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: into a drink. And to add to the appeal of 543 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,959 Speaker 1: arsnake from a killer's perspective, the symptoms that came with 544 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: it were often easily explained away as other common ailments 545 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: such as rheumatism and flu, and so they often went 546 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: undiagnosed as a poisoning. I mean, we've mentioned throughout all 547 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: of these deaths sort of what a lot of them 548 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: were listed as, and they're sort of common and odd things. 549 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: And there are actually people who will argue that Marianne 550 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: was not the serial killer she's been made out to be, 551 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: challengers to the idea that she deliberately murdered all. These 552 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: people point out that while she did collect insurance on 553 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: many of the deaths, none of them were considered suspicious 554 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,959 Speaker 1: until her stepson died, while multiple exhumed bodies of her 555 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: believed victims have tested positive for arsnake, just as Cotton 556 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: stepson did. If Marianne were tried in the modern world, 557 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: the judgment may have gone very differently, largely due to 558 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: a lack of forensic evidence, and it's it's uh interesting 559 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: to think about how popular arsenic was and how it 560 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: then fell out of favor completely as a poison. Uh, 561 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: and for that you can thank the British chemist James 562 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: Marsh largely. The Marsh test for arsenic was developed in 563 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties, although at that point it was not 564 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: considered like a fool proof test, and it was developed 565 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: and improved over the years until it could eventually detect 566 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: even the tiniest trace of arsenic. So as Marianne was 567 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: carrying out all these crimes, this test and others like 568 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: it which would immediately detect the president of the presence 569 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: of arsenic were pretty new. Yeah, people just weren't thinking 570 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: about poisoning as much. You know, this is a time 571 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: when people did die in large numbers. There was a 572 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: high mortality rate for children, so in some ways it 573 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: was uh, you know, not really something that raised an eyebrow. Unfortunately. 574 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: One thing that we should note here too, though, are 575 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: the people in Marianne's life who are listed of having 576 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: died of typhus. Apparently that's not normally a thing that 577 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: would be diagnosed accidentally when arsenic poisoning is in the 578 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: mixed Typhus leaves a very particular set of evidence on 579 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: a body after somebody has died. However, the distinction between 580 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: typhoid and typhus had only been clinically defined in eighteen 581 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: forty seven to eighteen fifty one in the work of 582 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: Sir William Jenner, and prior to that, and even for 583 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: some time after Jenner kind of established these definitions, some 584 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: doctors incorrectly use these two terms almost synonymously, like it 585 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: could go either way. They would write one or the 586 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: other on the death death certificate. That makes me feel 587 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: better about the times we've accidentally said the wrong one. Uh, 588 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: we don't actually know why Marian committed her crimes. She 589 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: professed her innocence right to the very end, and she 590 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: collected life insurance payouts in many of the cases, but 591 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: these payouts weren't especially large. Various accounts of her life 592 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: has speculated as to what may have led her to 593 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: start and then contin in you to just eliminate people 594 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: to her from her life, But it's all speculative. Yeah, 595 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: in the end, we really have no idea. I mean, 596 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: it did seem if you kind of look at it 597 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: in terms of the timeline, like she kind of wanted 598 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: to get rid of things that were in her way 599 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: from kind of living the life she wanted. But we 600 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: still don't really know what the scoop is there. In 601 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: eight of Marianne's letters were sold, and these had been 602 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: letters that were written to the last lodger that Marianne 603 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: had rented a room to. We mentioned him briefly in 604 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: the episode William Lowry, and they focused largely on pretty 605 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: mundane topics, mostly financial issues and solicitors. They weren't like 606 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: for full of juicy details. She made no uh big 607 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: admissions during these She never made any admissions of guilt. 608 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: But these letters were then expected after this initial sale, 609 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: to be sold off separately. But as of early last year, 610 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: so early in spring, Victoria House of Oxford was working 611 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,280 Speaker 1: to raise money to keep all of these letters to together, 612 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: to buy them from the person who would purchased them 613 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: and keep them together in the Durham County Records Office. 614 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't find anything later on this topic than May, 615 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: which is when they were still working on this fundraising campaign, 616 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: so I don't know how it turned out. So on 617 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: the off chance any of our listeners do write us 618 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: and let us know. Then. Just last month, which June, 619 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: a movie about mary Anne Cotton was announced. Actress joe 620 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: Anne Froggitt has been cast as mary Anne, and you 621 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: may know her better as Lady's maid Anna from Downton Abbey. 622 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: I have mixed feelings just casting. Well, this is why 623 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: I said at the top of the episode that she 624 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: is going to become a household name soon. Ish I 625 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: think the movie coming out about her, and especially with 626 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: a star that is much beloved on another show, even 627 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 1: though very different. Well, I just I love Downton Abbey 628 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: a lot. Uh, it's final season. I'm gonna super watch. 629 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: Very excited about that. But I will admit, and if 630 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: you're not caught up, don't listen for the next fifteen seconds. 631 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: I am tired of murder plots involving Anna. Well, now 632 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: you're going to get a big one. But if I'm like, oh, why, 633 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: she will be playing mary Anne Cotton, and I'm sure 634 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: she'll be lovely in it. So and I'm excited and 635 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: really look forward to that. It's one of those interesting 636 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: things where there there's really only like one photograph that 637 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: you see circulated of Maryanne Cotton, and she looks kind 638 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: of frail and maybe kind of grouchy in that way 639 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 1: that sometimes victorian photographs look. There's actually been some debate 640 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: over whether it's actually even another woman, and some historians 641 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 1: have pointed out, like, again, no, she was actually described 642 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: at one point by one of her early UH employers, 643 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: is beautiful. So this kind of weird picture may or 644 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: may not even be her, and even if it is, 645 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: it may not be the best image of her. Yeah, 646 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: this explains why why when I went looking for pictures 647 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: to go with the episodes that we're recording today, I 648 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: could find literally only one picture anywhere of her, and 649 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: it was too small to go on our website. Yeah, 650 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: it's tricky. Sorry that I picked one that's going to 651 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 1: be hard to source imagery for. But she's a fascinating 652 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: character in history, and it's one of those things where 653 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: we'd like to talk about ruthlessness. There's a one of 654 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: the books that I read by David Wilson called Mary 655 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: and Cotton, Britain's first female serial killer. He really talks 656 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: a lot about kind of how she's been characterized through 657 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: the years, UH, and some really interesting kind of cultural 658 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: approaches that we take when we're dealing with discussions of 659 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 1: people that we want to label as monsters and how 660 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: we characterize them and how we describe them. And it's 661 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: not exactly pertinent to the historical discussion of it, but 662 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: it is a really interesting read if you're interested. I 663 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: recommend it. Uh. I also have some listener mail that 664 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: has absolutely nothing to do with this particular bit of death, 665 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: although I does have to do with death a little bit. 666 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: And since this episode ran long, this is kind of 667 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: a short listener mail. It's from a listener Jenny, and 668 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: it actually refers to an episode that Tracy and I 669 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: did not even work on. But it's an interesting historical 670 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: tidbit I thought I would share. So she says, So, 671 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: Holly just told me on Twitter that you get notes 672 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: about old shows all the time, so here it goes. 673 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: I did tell her that, and I'm fine with that, 674 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: even though we may not always have an answer or 675 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: insight for what you're asking about. But Jenny says, I 676 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: just listened to the show your predecessors did on the 677 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: Halifax explosion. This was back in December of two thousand eleven. 678 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: One fact that I find interesting that wasn't mentioned was 679 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: that the hot Halifax coroner already had a very good 680 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: system in place for mass casualty incidents that he used. 681 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: He had developed the system a few years earlier because 682 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: his office dealt with all the bodies they could pull 683 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: out of the Atlantic after the Titanic sank. So a 684 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: very old episode, but an interesting tidbit. Nonetheless, it's a 685 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: fascinating little tidbit. I did not know that, uh, and 686 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: I didn't double check that for very Patient's gonna trust 687 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: you on this one, Jenny. Uh. If you would like 688 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: you're right to us. You can do so at History 689 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: podcast to how stuffworks dot com. We're also at Facebook 690 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,919 Speaker 1: dot com, slash missed in history on Twitter, at missed 691 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: in History at pinterest dot com, slash miss in History 692 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: at missed in History dot comler dot com, and at 693 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: missed in History dot spreadshirt dot com. If you would 694 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: like to purchase yourself a shirt or mug or topebag 695 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: or phonecase or other goodies, uh, you would like to 696 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: visit our parents site on the web. That's how sul 697 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: works dot com. You can type in the search term 698 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: serial killer and you'll get so much content. One is 699 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: how serial killers work. There's quiz about serial killers talk 700 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: all about it. Uh. If you would like to visit us, 701 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: that's a mist in history dot com. We have an 702 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: archive of every episode that's ever happened, We have show 703 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: notes for all the episodes that Tracy and I have hosted, 704 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: and occasional other goodies. So we encourage you to come 705 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: and visit us at miss in history dot com and 706 00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:00,399 Speaker 1: our parents site how some Works dot com. For more 707 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, is that how 708 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. M