1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: This has been one of the strangest political campaigns, certainly 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: in my lifetime, I would say in many lifetimes. And 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: I think the media has really been doing recently a 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: lot of naval gazing in the best possible way, looking 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: at themselves and trying to figure out what they've done right, 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: what they've done wrong, and how they've covered this campaign, 7 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: this very unusual campaign, And both as a journalist and 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: someone who consumes the news and information, I've been thinking 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: about that a lot as well. Recently, I read an 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: article in New York Magazine where one d and thirteen 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: journalists were interviewed about all these issues, and the title 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: of the article was the case against the Media by 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: the media. So I'm not the only one asking all 14 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: these questions. It seems as if journalists everywhere are doing 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: some self examination about how the media has comported itself 16 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: during the course of this election. And who better to 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: talk about these issues than two veteran reporters, I would argue, 18 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: and I think Brian Goldsmith might agree, my sidekick Brian, 19 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: with two of the finest journalists of our generation, Bob 20 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: Woodward and Tina brown Well, I definitely agree. These are 21 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: two of the heroic characters in the history of journalism, 22 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: not just journalism right now. Bob Woodward, of course, I 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: think people have heard of half of the famous Woodward 24 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: and Bernstein duo that helped to bring down Richard Nixon. 25 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: He's written or co written eighteen best selling books, most famously, 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: of course, all the presidents men. Tina Brown is probably 27 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: a little less well known, but she's had just a 28 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: story to a career. She was the editor of Tatler, 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: the great British gossip rag. She then became, at the 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: age of thirty, the editor of Vanity Fair and transformed 31 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: that magazine into what you see today, and then became 32 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: the first female editor of The New Yorker. She's founded 33 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: The Daily Beast, she hosted a talk show, she wrote 34 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 1: a best selling book on Princess Diana. She edited Newsweek. 35 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: So we're really lucky to be joined today by these 36 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: two great journalists to discuss the state of media in 37 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: this crazy campaign. Bob and Tina. There has been so 38 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: much handwringing over the way the media has been handling 39 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: have been handling this election season, and I've often wondered, 40 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: twenty years from now, how will journalism schools if in 41 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: fact they still exist. Review the performance by journalists covering 42 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: this campaign. Let me ask you straight out, Bob, what 43 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: do you think have have we embarrassed ourselves or is 44 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: it still a relatively noble profession. Well, I'll take a 45 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: middle ground at first. I think there's been a lot 46 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: of great campaign coverage at the Washington Post. We've done 47 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: this book on Donald Trump at twenty people work on it. 48 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: If if you read it, you will see I think 49 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: it's the best exposition of who he is. He spent 50 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: twenty hours with the reporters. It's it's tough, but it 51 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: lets him have his say. We're working on Hillary Clinton 52 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: in the same way. I think there's no book planned 53 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: at this point. But for instance, today there was a 54 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: terrific story that the Post did about how Bill Clinton 55 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: got seventeen million dollars from this private for profit college 56 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: while serving for five years is honorary chancellor. That's a 57 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: lot of money he helped, There's no question about it. 58 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: His name probably assisted in the recruitment of students and donors. 59 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: But you see the convergence here of all of the 60 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: Clinton enterprises, the personal fundraising, the speeches, the Clinton Foundation, 61 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: the Global Initiative, and and now this for seventeen million 62 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: dollars is not bad paved for five years work, which 63 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: in no way was full time. Tina, what is your 64 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: overall view of media coverage this go around. I do 65 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: not think it has been a you know, a stellar 66 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: journalism election in any sense. I do actually happen to 67 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: agree with Bob that I think that the Washington Post 68 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: coverage has been by far the best it has eating 69 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: everyone's lunch on this particular cycle. The piece you mentioned 70 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: today was was terrific. I will actually say, though, I 71 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: think most of this coverage just seems very late to me. 72 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems to me that it's almost like 73 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: journalists have have come so late to the stories that 74 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: are obviously I mean, they shout in holler about the 75 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: big sort of the big issues of dishonest demon darcy, 76 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: but where the details in the rigor that sort of 77 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: drills down. I mean, what was to me a gratifying 78 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: thing about today's story in the Post was that actually 79 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: there was drilling down into one thing that was a 80 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: really very interesting thing, a new thing that people didn't know. 81 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: I would argue that all these other stories about the 82 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: Clinton most of them are so many of them are 83 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: sort of innuendo and like massive drum rolling, and that 84 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,239 Speaker 1: turns out, I mean, nothing really there. That's what I resent, 85 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: is the huge drum rolls for things that aren't really there. 86 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: And on the other side, Trump just for so long 87 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: just seemed to get away with absolute murder to the 88 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: point that these uh sort of stereotypes were fixed very 89 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: very early in people's minds. So it's, you know, it's 90 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: the stereotype of of of Hillary being the narrative of 91 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: her being dishonest was fixed so early in people's minds 92 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to be shiftable. The other hand, Donald Trump, 93 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: all the revelations about Trump have come so late in 94 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: the day that he's got away with murder all his time. 95 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: So it feels to me as if you know that 96 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: the journalists are just not sometimes making more noise than 97 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: they are forensic searching time. Okay, first of all, can 98 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: I disagree Tina with that. The problem is so many 99 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: of these stories I went back and looked at the 100 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: stories the Post wrote about both Trump and Hillary. In 101 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: the case of Hillary, going back toteen about the foundation 102 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,679 Speaker 1: about all of these things in one form or another. 103 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: The difficulty is there's so much out there, a good story, uh, 104 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: an important piece of the puzzle on either of these candidates. 105 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: I mean, all about Trump University. We wrote about it, 106 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 1: Steve Brill wrote about it in Time magazine. I remember 107 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,119 Speaker 1: last year being on one of the cable news shows saying, 108 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: what about Trump University? And people just laughed, Oh, we 109 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: know all about that. That's been in the New York Times. 110 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: But it hasn't. And there has to be incremental coverage 111 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: on these things to dig into them. But when you look, 112 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,559 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to borrow you with a list 113 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: of the stories that ran, but when you really look, 114 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: there was vast coverage about Hillary Clinton. You're right. Some 115 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: of it is unfair, some of it contains innuendos that 116 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: are not supported. At the same time, there is just 117 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: a lot there on both of these candidates, and uh, 118 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: I think it's not just overwhelmed journalists, it's overwhelmed the public. 119 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: Well that that brings me to a question. It seems 120 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: that a lot of these stories don't matter. Um. I 121 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: think this sort of overarching narrative about dishonesty. I think 122 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: that's what Tina was saying about innuendo, sort of a 123 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: feeling about candidates. Is this thing that seems to have 124 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: a residual impact, But these sort of detailed stories, I 125 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: don't know. Is it the sheer volume of material that's 126 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: being written about this campaign, or is it that people 127 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: just don't really respect or trust the press anymore? Bob, 128 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: I was looking at this number. Gallup reported that in 129 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: nine seene seventy four, the year you helped bring down 130 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: a president, sixty of the public trusted the media. Today 131 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: that number is twenty percent. So is it volume? Is 132 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: it trust? Why don't these stories seem to have a 133 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: bigger impact. Well, one thing I feel strongly is it 134 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: is the volume. That's one of the problems. I was 135 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: just thinking the other day when you Katie interviewed Sarah 136 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: Palin and she said she couldn't say a newspaper that 137 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: she read. Her ignorance became such a kind of defining 138 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: feature that it helped to bury her. It was one 139 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: of the major things that helped to bury Sarah Palin 140 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: when you compare it to the amount of ignorance that 141 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has shown in this election again and again 142 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: and again in so many different venues. That hasn't stuck, 143 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: and that hasn't defined him. Why is that? Is it? Because, 144 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: as as Bob was saying, the volume, the very volume 145 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: of the amount of stuff means that it's just not landing. 146 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: Whereas when Sarah Palin went on that major news broadcast 147 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: and said that thing, everybody saw it and everybody knew, well, 148 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: what wasn't just that that Sarah Palin said? What? It 149 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: was an important part of it. She said many other 150 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: things too. I think, But so is Donald Trump, Bob, 151 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: and it doesn't seem to be hurting him. Well, but 152 00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: the idea is there are let's face the facts here, 153 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: and that is there are a lot of people who 154 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: support Trump. Remember he's got forty percent of the people 155 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: in the polls one way or another don't really care. 156 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: I've talked to some of these people. They say, I 157 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: don't really care that he doesn't understand this, or that 158 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: he's going to be tough, he's a leader, they like 159 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: his background and so forth. So it's not and you're 160 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: you're posing it. Why doesn't that hurt him? Uh? Because 161 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: many many you know, I don't know obviously the number, 162 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: but I think the polling shows on this people uh 163 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: really think this is Washington establishment. It's Democrats and Republicans 164 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: who have alive themselves together in this kind of shadow establishment, 165 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: and Trump is outside of it, and he's saying We're 166 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: going to kick the hell out of it and people 167 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: like that. So the details of what he knows are irrelevant. Now. 168 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: The big question that's got to be addressed what would 169 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: he do as president if he became president. My answer 170 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: to that question is that I think we don't know, 171 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: and in many ways I think he doesn't know himself. 172 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: How scary is that fair point? But you know, people say, okay, 173 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: well you can be practical you get in Uh. We know, 174 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: politicians get in office and they've said all kinds of 175 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: things and then they do something, Uh, the opposite most prominent. 176 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: I hate to go back to Nixon in he said 177 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: he had a secret plan to end the Vietnam War. 178 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: Probably lots of people voted for him on the basis 179 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: of that. I was in the US Navy then, and 180 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: I voted for Nixon in sixty eight because I thought 181 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: he had the best chance of getting us out of Vietnam. 182 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: We look at the record, which is very clear now, Uh, 183 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: he didn't get us out of Vietnam. He withdrew troops 184 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: but he increased the bombing and certainly did not end 185 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: the war. But Bob, to your point, it's striking to 186 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: me that it isn't just about Trump not knowing particular details, 187 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: like when you interviewed him and he seemed not to 188 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: be clear about what Abraham Lincoln did, which was a 189 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: very striking thing to me. Right, and if we should say, 190 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: I mean what when we interviewed Trump a number of 191 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: months ago and asked why was Lincoln successful? His answer 192 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: was because he did some things that needed to be done. Well, uh, 193 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: it was. It was baffling and jaw dropping. So so, 194 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: but you know, if if Sarah Payton had said that, 195 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, my point is that, you know, why did 196 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: why did it hurt Sarah Palin when she said she's 197 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: could see Russia from her back door? Why did that 198 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: hurt her so badly? But this comment about not even knowing, 199 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: which show you didn't even know what Lincoln did. Nobody 200 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: really didn't didn't boom around or anybody. Well, and Tina, 201 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: it's to me it's more than that because Trump has 202 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: gotten more pants on fire ratings from fact checkers than 203 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: practically any candidate ever, And that too doesn't seem to 204 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: be resonating as much. But also I think you have 205 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: to factor in it's now six and Sarah Palin was 206 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: eight years ago, and I think the whole media landscape 207 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: has changed significantly just in that eight years. And there 208 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: again to go. And it's not an excuse, it's an 209 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: attempt a description. There is a volume of stuff that 210 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: is staggering. If you are in the media business, you 211 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: can't even follow it. May I also just say that 212 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: I think that the universe has been created now with 213 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: twenty years of Fox News has really come to roost. 214 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: And I'm very interested to see them the National Review, 215 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: the the right wing National Review, they're actually now started 216 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: to come out against Fox and say it has created 217 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: a universe which has been such an echo chamber for 218 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: the Republican Party that they have become a cocoon universe 219 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: in which Republicans could go on talk to themselves, talk 220 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: to an audience that was strictly understood from their point 221 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: of view of the world. And in a way that 222 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: that volume of ignorance and cite the cycle of ignorance 223 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: that the falsehoods and so forth that were put out 224 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: constantly as facts has taken has taken the Land, you know, 225 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: has actually borne fruit. And that's what we've got now, 226 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: is isn't it isn't a less informed electorate because they're 227 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: watching the silo, Tina. I don't think you can blame 228 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: it on on Fox News. I think it's part of 229 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: this story, part of the story. Yeah, of course it's 230 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: not all of that fool But I do think it's 231 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: made a difference to the Republican Party. Look, it's it's 232 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: individual voters who say they don't like what's going on. 233 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: They do not like this establishment in Washington and in politics. 234 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: And somebody who talks tough and kicks a lot of 235 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: sand and is not up on the details of all 236 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: kinds of things and all kinds of history that doesn't 237 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: matter to them. And I, you know, I don't know 238 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: whether it's our job to sit in judgment of people. 239 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: I think what we have people who are going to 240 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: vote for Trump or vote for somebody else, but try 241 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: to understand and then present who these people are in details. Well, 242 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: I totally agree with that, in the sense that you know, 243 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: there's every reason for people to be upset and disenfranchise. 244 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: Has no doubt about that. I guess the question is 245 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: much more is that why don't certain specific things make 246 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: a difference. But we may be making a mistake in 247 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: making this assumption that it isn't hurting him. It's clearly 248 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: hurt him a lot with college educated white voters who 249 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: are normally a pillar of the Republican coalition, who are 250 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: leaning toward Clinton this time. It may be helping him 251 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: with blue collar voters who historically voted more Democratic, but 252 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: it's clearly having an effect in terms of the electorate 253 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: that he's able to attract. We'll be right back after 254 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: a quick break. What do you have to lose by 255 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: trying something new like Trump? What worries you both most 256 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: about the way journalism has changed. You've been in the 257 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: business for a very long time, and uh as I have. 258 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: And I'm curious what you think about the current state 259 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: of journalism, because, yes, the sheer volume, it's hard for anything, 260 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: I think, to attach itself any narrative, although Brian said 261 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: it is having some kind of impact. But but we 262 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: talked about volume, and also there's such fragmentation and niche 263 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: viewing or niche readers, people who want to hear their 264 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: own views reflected back at them. A friend of mine 265 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: set people are seeking affirmation, not information. So what worries 266 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: you most about what journalism has become acknowledging that some 267 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: very good work is still being done. Bob, Well, first, 268 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,239 Speaker 1: it's also not just the volume. It's the pace, and 269 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: it's Internet driven, and it reflects the impatience and speed 270 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: of the internet. Tell me the headline, give it to 271 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: me in a d forty characters. And so the whole 272 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: technology of this has dumbed down the information transfer process 273 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: to people. Instead of expecting a long article, uh, people 274 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: expect something really short. It give give me the SoundBite, 275 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: and you know yourselves when you do interviews, Uh, you know, 276 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: give us the bottom line. And so that takes people 277 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: away from an in depth understanding of things. Now that 278 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: that can't be changed. That's a reality, and uh quite 279 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: quite frankly, and I think we have to confront this. 280 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: No one has found a way in television, radio, print media, 281 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: anything else. Uh, you know, Buck, Roger, Dakota Rings. No 282 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: one has found a way to connect the doubts in 283 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: a way that makes sense, in a way that is 284 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: of sufficient length or time that people will absorb it. 285 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: I think that we should not underestimate the sheer impact 286 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: is having on the professionals themselves, you know. I mean, 287 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: one thing I think that is extremely dispiriting for journalists 288 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: is the constant to your point, Bob, but the constant 289 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: demands to keep filing, filing, filing, you know, posting five 290 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: times a day, coming on Sunday and do Facebook live now, 291 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: all of these things, you know the New York Times 292 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: for insts. I know that journalists feel that as the 293 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: newsroom shrinks, they're being asked to do more and more 294 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: and more in regard to you know, short time consuming, 295 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: time wasting. You could argue, you know, bursts of this 296 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: and busts of that to feed the social media beasts 297 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: that are out there demanding to be fed, to be fed. 298 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: And of course it means that they can't get on 299 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: with their story. I mean, they can't actually spend at 300 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: time doing what you were just doing, returning the call 301 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 1: from a source and sitting there on the phone for 302 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: forty minutes and getting the story they've been pursuing. There too, 303 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: busy out there having to do something down you know, 304 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: Facebook live thing or whatever, which they have to keep 305 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: doing to feed the beast. Well, let's get that terrible 306 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: effect on the journalism because ultimately they're constantly filing before 307 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: they're ready. And what is the Washington I was going 308 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: to say, what is the Washington Post, though, Bob doing differently? 309 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: You just mentioned rate piece that was done today. They're 310 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: obviously Marty Baron, who's a great editor in chief and 311 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: somebody who cares deeply about good journalism. What kind of 312 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: environment is he establishing for people at the Post that 313 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: is it really liberating them to do this kind of good, solid, important, 314 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: critically important journalism. Like everything it it starts with the owner. 315 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: And several years ago Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Amazon, 316 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: bought the Post and it was a year ago was 317 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: last October. I had a conversation with Bezos and we 318 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: were talking about Nixon and uh Bezos said, could we 319 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: have found out about Nixon before he became president? My 320 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: answer is I don't think so, but we could have 321 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: done more and better before he was elected. And so 322 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: the owner, Maso said, Okay, what we need to do 323 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: is make sure that we dig into the lives and backgrounds, 324 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: do a full excavation of the two remaining candidates through 325 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: after the primary process. And then he said, the editor, 326 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: Marty Baron, will have he will have the resources to 327 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: do this, and so the Post has hired lots of 328 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: new reporters. I look at the front page or some 329 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: of these stories, and I know none of the bye lines. 330 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 1: I do not know who these people are, but they 331 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: but they are fabulous reporters with experience with the patients 332 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: to dig in and who understand what matters is incremental coverage. 333 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: That you have to stick with the story, chase it 334 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: to ground, and at the same time be aggressively nonpartisan. Uh, 335 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: and to be as fair but tough as you can. 336 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: What do you two make of the of the now 337 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: infamous New York Times stat that Trump got two billion 338 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: dollars in free media coverage during this campaign. He tweeted 339 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: in July about the Milannia controversy, the plagiarism issue, that 340 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: he believes that all press is good press. So by 341 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: that standard, even if some of the two billion was negative, 342 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: was that all helpful to him and propelling his rise? 343 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: And let me just add to Brian's point by saying, 344 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: New York Magazine interviewed a hundred and thirteen journalists, and 345 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: eight said they believe the media created Donald Trump. So 346 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: how much is the media to blame for the very 347 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: fact that he is the Republican nominee for President of 348 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: the United States. Well, I think a weakness of obviously 349 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: of the entertainment driven nature of the time we live 350 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: in means that Donald Trump is a heck of a 351 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: lot more fun to cover than Hillry Clinton. You know, 352 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: the fact is that that journalists cannot resist where the 353 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: action is, if you like, and Trump was the action. 354 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: And in that sense, I do think there was way 355 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,959 Speaker 1: way too much that without question, that he was allowed 356 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: to go on there and blow hardaway and do interviews 357 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: on the phone in the higher hour and a half 358 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: rallies it's covered without interruption. That was insane. And you know, 359 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: the fact is that there will be sort of one 360 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: sort of slightly combative second question. He would blow blow 361 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: steam and then you move on to your next question, 362 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: instead of doing what should have been done on television, 363 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: which is like the just refusing to let go. It's 364 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: a lot harder to challenge somebody on the phone than 365 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: it is face to face. It is, but there's also 366 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: the question of the second follow up and the third 367 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: follow up and the fourth follow up. We actually don't 368 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: let somebody stop. You don't ask one question, you get 369 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: a blow up answer, and then you try a second question, 370 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: you get a blow fonser, and then you just move on. 371 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: You have to stay with it. If I may say 372 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: and challenge that a little bit, I think that, of 373 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: course we should have done more. That's always the case. 374 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,239 Speaker 1: But it's the voters who created Donald Trump. Let's not 375 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: kid ourselves. He was ahead in the polls, he almost 376 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: from the beginning. If I recall, he won primary after 377 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: primary after primary, and now he's the nominee of the 378 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: Republican Party. So you have to cover that. That's our job, 379 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: embedded in your right team. I mean, these rallies were 380 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 1: expect to coals. I mean it was almost like the 381 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: Roman color situation. Absolutely yeah. But you covered those and 382 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: then people followed up and there was lots of examination, 383 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: and if you put all the clips together, you would 384 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: be astonished what you never even read or were aware of, 385 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: because there's been so much. Well, I can remember certain 386 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: really good critical moments where it did happen, like with 387 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: Chris Matthews when he really nailed Trump about how when 388 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: he said women who had abortion should be punished on 389 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: his show, and he really was fabulous about that, and 390 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: he really dressed and then Trump took it back. And 391 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: then Trump took it back his mind. He said, oh no, 392 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: no punishment, absolutely, But does I mean the Hillary Clinton 393 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: partisans I know would say that it isn't just about 394 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: the volume of coverage, it's about the tone of coverage, 395 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: the kind of coverage. The Shorenstein Center put out a 396 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: study that shows that Hillary got by far the most 397 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: negative coverage of any candidate in either party. Trump got 398 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: pretty raw ra coverage, at least at the beginning. Um, 399 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: does the press need to be held account for the 400 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: tone that they're striking. Some of the tone is has 401 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: been bad, There's no question about it. But look, Hillary 402 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: Clinton has been on the public stage for so long. 403 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: All of her incarnations as first Ladies, Senator, Secretary of 404 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: State are going to be examined. And the whole email 405 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: fiasco is not something the media created. And if you 406 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: look at the facts in this and you look at 407 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: what we've seen, um, there are a multitude of stark 408 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: contradictions that needs to be covered. I think in a sense, 409 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: the problem Secretary Clinton has had is and she now 410 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: apparently is somewhat on the road to remedy that uh, 411 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: to not answer questions, to not have press conferences. I've 412 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: known her for decades and interviewed her some in earlier incarnations, 413 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: and I think Katie, uh, you and Tina know so 414 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: well when you've interview her and you listen to her, 415 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: she's fabulous, She incredibly informed. She can be very friendly, 416 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: very open, very self deprecating, and that's not what we've 417 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: seen in the campaign, and so maybe for the next 418 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: two months we're going to get more. It is curious 419 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: because actually she's at her best, one of her box 420 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: against the wall. I mean, I think her finest hour 421 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: in the last year really was the Benghazi hearings, where 422 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: she's grilled and grilled and grilled and grilled and never 423 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: lost her cool. Seven hours. She was well informed, she 424 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: was on top of it, she never lost a beat, 425 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: and yet somehow seems to have been fearful of the 426 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: press pack who were way less informed and very often 427 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: way less hollstyle than the Manghazi hearing. So I agree 428 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: that you know, it's not been a good strategy, but 429 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: one that she seems to have adhered to despite everybody 430 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: saying she should not. But why why are they doing that? 431 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: I mean, she held her first press conference in two 432 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty days she did start talking to reporters 433 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: on the plane. And I'm curious why why the hesitancy 434 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: to to actually talk to reporters, especially when Donald Trump 435 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:35,479 Speaker 1: was establishing the narrative every single day, um by talking 436 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: to reporters and then creating a storyline that was being 437 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: adhered to by almost every news organizations. A long theory 438 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: which is that if your if your opponent is killing themselves, 439 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: let him go ahead and do it. Why should she 440 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: go walking herself to death, like risking sound bites of 441 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: her own when he's busy falling on his face it 442 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: seems every ten minutes. And indeed, as bron said, it 443 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: is affecting him in the polls. But I think she 444 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: has a deep seated fear of not being perfect that 445 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: goes back, must go back way into her. We're really 446 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: getting her on the couch now. I mean, I think 447 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: it's true. I think that's always been an issue for 448 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: Hillary that she can never really say yes, I got 449 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: that wrong and move on like she couldn't say, you know, 450 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: I got the I RAG vote wrong. All the way 451 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: through the last campaign, she always gave fifteen caveats about 452 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: why she yes, she was the wrong but instead of 453 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: just saying, you know what, I got it wrong, bad consequences. 454 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: If I could do it again, I wouldn't I have 455 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: to ask Bob about this, this Paul Krugman column and Tina, 456 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: I'd loved your view on it too, that Hillary Clinton 457 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: gets gored, basically saying the media coverage of her has 458 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: been patently unfair. He compared it to what happened to 459 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: Al Gore against George W. Bush during that campaign, and 460 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: he writes throughout the campaign, most media coverage gave the 461 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: impression that Mr Bush was a bluff, straightforward guy, while 462 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: portraying Al Gore, whose policy proposals added up and whose 463 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: critiques of the Bush Plan were complete accurate, as slippery 464 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: and dishonest. And right now I and many others have 465 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: the six sinking feeling that it's happening again. True, there 466 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: aren't many efforts to pretend that Donald Trump is a 467 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: paragon of honesty, but it's hard to escape the impression 468 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: that he's being graded on a curve if he seems 469 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: to suggest that he wouldn't round up all eleven million 470 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: undocumented immigrants right away, he's moving into the mainstream, and 471 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: many of his multiple scandals like what appears to be 472 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: clear payoffs to state attorneys general to back off investigating 473 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: Trump University get remarkably little attention. Meanwhile, we have the 474 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: presumption that anything Hillary Clinton does must be corrupt, most 475 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: spectacularly illustrated by the increasingly bizarre coverage of the Clinton Foundation. Anyway, 476 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but Bob, what are 477 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: your thoughts on that? Okay? Paul Krugman is ardent partisan, 478 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: and he has very strong views about this. In that column, 479 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: he says, well, George W. Boy lied about what he 480 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: was gonna do with taxes. I spent months looking at 481 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: the origins, development, and final passage of the Bush tax cuts. 482 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: Bush was quite straightforward. He was gonna lower taxes for everyone, 483 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: and he did. And now the economic consequences of that 484 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: Krugman and others are very critical of and and and 485 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: that's reasonable. Hillary Clinton's got to be accountable. Uh, she's 486 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: running for president. And uh, the idea that I mean, Look, 487 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: we all know hundreds of journalists, and yes there are 488 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: some who are partisan one way or another, but by 489 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: and large, journalists want to get it right. They don't 490 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: aren't sitting around and say, let's gore Hillary or gee, 491 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: I don't like Hillary. There's too much out there. There 492 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: are too many questions, there's too much history and past 493 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: and it's got to be addressed, and it is. I 494 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: think the answer is for her, quite frankly, is to 495 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: sit down with you too. And you know, maybe I've 496 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: been trying, Bob, and they keep blowing me off. Yeah, 497 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: but I mean, it isn't that. I mean, Katie, I've 498 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: known you for years. I have no idea you could 499 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: torture me. And I couldn't tell you what your politics are. 500 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: I have no idea. You're a journalist, you're trying to 501 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: figure out what happened. You would give her a fair hearing, 502 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: but a tough hearing. But you know, one of the 503 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: things though that Bob, I think that they fear she fears, 504 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 1: And what's so fascinating is that it hasn't applied to Trump. 505 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 1: Is the flying sound bite that defines you. I mean, 506 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: her comment inside of a very long interview to Diane 507 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: Sawyer we were broke when we left the White House, right, 508 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: that became for her like and I'll go on the 509 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: internet nightmare it's like, that's what she said. Yes, it 510 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: is what she said. But look and that's what that 511 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: is what she meant. It's fine. But the question is 512 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: why did that end up being such a defining, uh 513 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: sort of killer boomerang to Hillary? Whereas all course it is, 514 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: of course, of course it was absurd, but compared to 515 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: the multi absurdities of everything that Trump has said. Yeah, 516 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,479 Speaker 1: but but it's I don't get into this idea of well, 517 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: Trump's done ten times is badly fair enough in those 518 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: things around the record, and they're under the microscope, believe me, 519 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: by journalists and voters. But that doesn't mean you don't 520 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: do Hillary. In fact, I mean I'm not suggesting that 521 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: you don't do I think she's saying. She's saying, why 522 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: why she why she's hesitant to put herself out. I'm saying, 523 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: that is why she's hesitant to of course you wouldn't. 524 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: Does she have somebody in her entourage who would when 525 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: she said that, you know, we were dead, broke or whatever, 526 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: say to her, Hey, that was a mistake. You shouldn't 527 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: have said that. That is not going to be incredible, 528 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: particularly when you've gone on, uh, you and your husband 529 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: to make all of this money. She made a messay 530 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: she did, Well, that's that's the point, that's what she's 531 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: so desperately afraid of doing. She's afraid that she's going 532 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: to talk for twenty minutes about her policy about criminal 533 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: justice and then use suddenly, you know, like slip and 534 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: use a word like super predator, and then you know, 535 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: it undermines everything that she said before. I think that 536 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: the fear of that flying sound bite being this curse 537 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: of of her the next six months has made her 538 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: into a fetal position of fear. You know, I'm not 539 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: I don't say it's a good thing that she's in 540 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 1: that position, but I think that is what's driving it. Okay, Tina, 541 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: if that's what's driving what's going to happen if she 542 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: becomes president and Vladimer Poop confronts her, Is she going 543 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: to be able to hold her own I think there's 544 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: all the evidence in the world that she can. But 545 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: the idea that she's sitting around and worried about, oh 546 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: my god, I'm gonna make a slip, I'm going to 547 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: say something that I've felt or thought. You know, we're 548 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: sitting here having this conversation and it's not scripted, it's 549 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: not planned. You know, probably one of us probably weren't 550 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,959 Speaker 1: running for president both thank God, no, no. But we 551 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 1: we live in a spotlight, and you know, probably one 552 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: of us said something we wish we hadn't said, probably me, 553 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: and that happens. Okay, But when that happens, then you 554 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: kind of say, you know, I stepped on it. That 555 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: was a silly thing to say. People are forgiving. Everyone 556 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: knows people who say things that are silly or a mistake. 557 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: And and the idea that that drives her into a 558 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: defensive crouch. It is not testimony to what I know 559 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: is her strength. And yet I would agree with I 560 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,439 Speaker 1: would agree with Tina. I think that's true. I think 561 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: it's she feels this is hers to lose, and why 562 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,959 Speaker 1: risk it if she's going to be really challenged, even 563 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 1: though I agree also with Tina that that is when 564 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: she is best, when when she's really challenged about some 565 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: specific policy, and uh, I just I I also think 566 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: combined her her unwillingness to kind of step in it, 567 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: as she said, Bob, coupled with her inability to say 568 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: I screwed up. That's a pretty bad combination for dealing 569 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: with the media. Okay, but whose fault is that the media's? No, Well, 570 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: I think the media critique, though, is a little bit different, 571 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: which is that Trump is being graded on a curve 572 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,359 Speaker 1: that even if, as Tina says, he makes ten times 573 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 1: as many mistakes, if he utters ten times the number 574 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: of falsehoods, the coverage is presented as as equal and 575 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,919 Speaker 1: and and so. For example, when she gave a very 576 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: well researched speech, after what she answered no questions, so 577 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: that could be a fault. But she gave a speech 578 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: in which she, you know, demonstrated in remarkable detail Trump's 579 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: connections to a bunch of white supremacists and racist elements. 580 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: And then Trump, in the middle of a rally the 581 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: same day, yelled Hillary Clinton's a bigot. And on a 582 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: lot of the news programs, those two things were treated 583 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: as equal, um and so, Bob, Tina, do you think 584 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 1: that there is a reckoning that's going to happen after 585 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: this election in which the conclusion does not know, we 586 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: shouldn't cover Hillary Clinton critically, The conclusion is that there's 587 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: got to be some fairness in terms of the the 588 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: amount that the that the whip or the zapper is 589 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: applied to these two candidates. But but but that's the 590 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: internet culture, in this impatience and speed they both effectively 591 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: called the other a bigot, right, so you cover that, 592 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: whether one was well researched versus one that was off 593 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: the top of his head. You can make that point, 594 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: and I think some people did, but you you, you 595 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: kind of have to cover that, I think, And this 596 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: is what's I'm one of. You know, this is almost 597 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: a constitutional point. But we have a democracy and people 598 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: are going to vote, and people are gonna get it. 599 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: People are a lot smarter, and the job we have 600 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: is to put it out there. Jeff Bezos, the owner 601 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: of the Post, said, So our goal is no one 602 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: can go into the voting booth in November and say 603 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't find out who these two candidates were. And 604 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: so we have, uh, you know, a lot of his 605 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:14,959 Speaker 1: money going to hire extra reporters and editors to make 606 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: this I think unparalleled monumental effort to answer that question 607 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: for people. Now, the volume, I mean, you can't keep 608 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,919 Speaker 1: up with it? Can you two? Keep? Can you keep 609 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: up with Now? That brings us back to where we 610 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: were at the beginning, which is sometimes the volume. It 611 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you're dealing with, what rigor if the 612 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: volume is so intense, people forget it. They have brain fade, 613 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: and well, let's face it, how many people are reading 614 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: these great stories in the Washington Post. I mean they 615 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: don't have They don't land with the kind of impact 616 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: they landed in the seventies and eighties when the paper was, 617 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, one of four or five major places that 618 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: people got their news. I mean, it's not like being 619 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: I feel like mostly political journalists are reading what political 620 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: journalists are writing, and I wonder how much it's sinking 621 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: in to the general population. Which I think that's a 622 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: fair question, and it's uncharted territory, but that doesn't mean 623 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: we stopped doing what we're doing. Let's bring it home, Bob, 624 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: and and and TEENA and Brian, I'd love to hear 625 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: your perspective on this. We're about two months away from 626 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: election day. What should the media be doing and the 627 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 1: these next two months? And I guess the second part 628 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: of that question is will it really matter? Well more 629 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: what matters is what the candidates do than what the 630 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: media does, because it's a question of how they're going 631 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: to handle these two months ahead. Uh. I feel that Trump, 632 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: when he thinks he is losing, is going to really 633 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: do the kind of thing you do when a retreating 634 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: army retreats and starts to kind of blaze his guns 635 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: in every direction, that he will go out in a 636 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: blaze of bomb attox, as it were, more and more 637 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: crazily extreme, because he will want to retain that counter 638 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: of the electorate for himself for whatever he does later. Hillary, 639 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: I think he's just going to try and be as 640 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 1: cautious as she can and not be forced to answer 641 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: things that could create the flying SoundBite. As as we've discussed, 642 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: I think the media, I think presentation is very important. 643 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: I do think that sometimes, you know, you don't get 644 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: a sense that this is the big story. Pay attention. 645 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: Of course, you have to do the incremental coverage, but 646 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: I do think, you know, the newsrooms have to sort 647 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: of gather themselves together and say, what are the four 648 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: big stories now, and just report the hell out of 649 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: these defining stories and really make sure that they haven't 650 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: left one stone. On Turner in the New York Times 651 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: did a wonderful piece, I thought, on all of Trump's 652 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: real estate deals. Unfortunately it came out the same weekend 653 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 1: that the pulse bombing happened in Florida, so I actually 654 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: didn't have the same impact, which I think it would 655 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 1: have had if that tragedy hadn't occurred, because of course 656 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: you're also racing not just the media coverage of the election, 657 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 1: which you're also racing the wild news environment that we've 658 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: been living in. I mean the summer. I think no 659 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: one was ready paying attention and apologies because of this 660 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: constant uh tragedies that were hitting at every turn. But 661 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: but when, when when these stories don't land? As Tina said, Bob, 662 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: do you think it's because it's more of a feeling 663 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: that is motivating Trump supporters, rather than details of his 664 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,720 Speaker 1: business dealings or the way he's behaved in certain situations 665 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: or Trump University. It's it's this overall anger and this 666 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: visceral reaction to him as a candidate and what he 667 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: could do. That means these stories just don't really matter. Well, 668 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: but you know you can't sit around. I if you 669 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: go back to some of the Nixon Watergate coverage, I 670 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: remember Ben Bradley, our editor, would say, you know, just 671 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: keep doing it, keep trying to find out what's going on. 672 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: And somebody would say, well, it didn't get picked up 673 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: by television. No one is talking about it. In fact, 674 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: no one believes it and and uh, you know, a 675 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: good editor is going to say just keep going. And 676 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: the answer to Katie's question, what should we do? Keep 677 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: following it? I think in September and October there is 678 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,760 Speaker 1: that cliche about the October surprise, something happening that really 679 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: turns things around. Events are going to occur that maybe 680 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: will determine or have a huge impact on the outcome 681 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: of this election and how the cans respond to them, 682 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: to how the candidates respond to those huge events. Yes, exactly. 683 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,240 Speaker 1: But a number of people have said, from the intelligence world, 684 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: the CIA world, that if there is a major terrorist 685 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: attack in this country, uh, that will help Trump. Now 686 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure. That depends on the timing, who 687 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: was behind it, how big it is, what the impact is, 688 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: because a lot of people will say, well, he's tough, 689 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: he's tough. Now He'll rea Clinton is tough also in 690 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,439 Speaker 1: a different way. But there could be occurrences like that 691 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: in the security terrorism field, in the world of the economy, 692 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: which is still not is robust and resilient as it 693 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: should be. So you know, I think the message should 694 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: be keep your seatbelled on. And I'd add one more 695 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: thing to answer Katie's question, which is I think the 696 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: press ought to focus on what the candidates planned to 697 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: do as president. I think often there's a uh, fake 698 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: sophistication on the part of a lot of reporters that, 699 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, we don't really pay attention to these campaign 700 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: promises because we all know that after they're elected they 701 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: toss them out. But that's really not true. And the 702 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 1: and the political science bears this out. Campaign promises are 703 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: the single best indicator of what the candidates, the policies 704 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: the candidates planned to pursue in office. And so even 705 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: if it isn't the sexiest coverage, I'd argue for you know, 706 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: really rigorous analysis of of what the candidates are actually proposing. 707 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:19,320 Speaker 1: What do their plans say't what was Richard Nixon? And 708 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: and that's the difficulty. No one believes because when people 709 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: get in office, they're going to do what they want 710 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: or what necessity dictates. And there's a downside to that, 711 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: but there's also an upside. Can I ask one question 712 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: of you guys before we let you go? Uh? I've 713 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,839 Speaker 1: always wanted to ask this, actually of both of you, 714 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: as two of the journalists I admire most. Bob, you've 715 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: written these best sellers about Richard Nixon, and you know 716 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: him better than just about anybody. Um And Tina, you 717 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: wrote this best seller of another person who was sort 718 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: of at the center of the media mails from Princess Diana. 719 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,760 Speaker 1: Do you see any of those two iconic characters in 720 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: either of the candidates uh that we're all covering this year, 721 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 1: or at least in the media environment that we're covering. Well, 722 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: Diana was the first internet ah death, if you like. 723 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,840 Speaker 1: I mean when she died, it was the first time 724 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: that um, a celebrity death had been covered on every medium, 725 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: all the time, everywhere. It would began the mass carpet 726 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: bombing media era that we have entered into. So in 727 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,279 Speaker 1: that sense, I guess she is more of a in 728 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,720 Speaker 1: the Trump genealogy than she is the Hillary genealogy, because 729 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,439 Speaker 1: you know, she started for this huge celebrity that then 730 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 1: just magnified and magnified and magnified, so that everything she 731 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 1: did became a fulfilling, self fulfilling prophecy in a way, 732 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,239 Speaker 1: And her relationship with the media was as combative and 733 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: as uh sort of you know, co opting at the 734 00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,839 Speaker 1: same time. So there's there are there are some aspects there, 735 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: I guess but sunny, you know, her humanitarian side was 736 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: way more in line with Hillary. It's unfair to compare 737 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 1: any candidate to Nixon, quite frankly, and uh, people have 738 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:21,399 Speaker 1: ascribed Nixonian tendencies to both Trump and Hillary. I think 739 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: that's I think that's unfair. Nixon was unique. He was 740 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: a criminal president who violated the law, who resigned when 741 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:38,320 Speaker 1: he realized that the entire Republican Party and Republican establishment 742 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:44,400 Speaker 1: had turned against him. His very Goldwater said, uh, Goldwater, 743 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: being the conscience of the Republican Party. Uh, for many 744 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,760 Speaker 1: many years said too many lies, too many crimes. And 745 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: we've had lots of untruths from both candidates. No one 746 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:03,359 Speaker 1: has established a rhyme from either of them. I think 747 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:09,320 Speaker 1: the I think it's probably gonna turn out okay, because 748 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: voters are very smart. I was off giving a speech 749 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: some weeks ago down south, and some man stood up 750 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,920 Speaker 1: and said, I'm confused. I don't know what to do. 751 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: Help me, And I said, uh, you know, look, you 752 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,040 Speaker 1: get to decide, you get to decide where you're going 753 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:36,040 Speaker 1: to get your information. It's personal. And then he wanted help. 754 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 1: And I think we need to give him more help 755 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: in our business more information, even if people don't look 756 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: at it or listen or read. UH. At least the 757 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:53,400 Speaker 1: data is there. And UH, in the end, majority of 758 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 1: people are going to be able to say I'm going 759 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,759 Speaker 1: to do this, and that's who's going to be the 760 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: next president. When you look to the future, are you 761 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 1: optimistic or pessimistic about the state of journalism? I'm sorry, 762 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, like you, people have to get up in 763 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: the morning and work at it. And the thought I have, 764 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:20,319 Speaker 1: because I think I can say this literally when I 765 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: get up in the morning, my thought is what are 766 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: the bastards hiding whoever they are, because they are out 767 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 1: there and you know, with political good maybe good intent 768 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:39,120 Speaker 1: trying to protect something, or maybe with less good intent, 769 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 1: but but people are hiding things. Remember Al Gore once 770 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,359 Speaker 1: said when I asked, what percentage of what goes on 771 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: in government that's of consequence do we know? And he 772 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:59,120 Speaker 1: said one percent. And that's, of course Gore being exaggerating. 773 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 1: We know a lot more than one percent. Maybe it's fifty, 774 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,640 Speaker 1: maybe it's six. But there's a lot we don't know 775 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 1: and about what goes on in government, and there's a 776 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: lot we don't know about who these people really are. 777 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm very glad that Bob is they're digging away shoveling 778 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: with his pick. Well, I could talk to you both, 779 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: Brian and I know agrees for hours. I didn't even 780 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: get a chance to talk to you about the role 781 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,879 Speaker 1: Facebook is playing in news distribution. So maybe we can 782 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: do part two of this podcast following the election. Bob 783 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: and Tina, thank you both so much for your time. 784 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,720 Speaker 1: It was great great to talk to you. Thank you, Katie, 785 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: Thank you. So we want to thank Bob Woodward and 786 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,879 Speaker 1: Tina Brown for participating in the show today. We also 787 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: want to thank Gretta Cone, the Reverend John Delore, and 788 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 1: Zack Dinerstein for producing this show. Also a special shout 789 00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,319 Speaker 1: out to Mark Phillips for our terrific theme music, and 790 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: thank you for listening. If you want to leave us 791 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 1: a message, please do so at nine to four four 792 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,319 Speaker 1: six three seven. As always, I will be standing by 793 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 1: the phone. Also, please subscribe, rate and review the show. 794 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,240 Speaker 1: It helps other listeners to find it. Thanks for listening. 795 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time. Hey folks, it's me Mark 796 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,120 Speaker 1: Marin and if you love podcasts, you don't want to 797 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 1: miss now here. This a really big podcasting festival. Coming 798 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 1: in October to the Los Angeles area. Come see me 799 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,960 Speaker 1: and lots of shows you love. More than thirty great 800 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 1: podcasts live on six stages. 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Don't miss it. Go to now 811 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:22,360 Speaker 1: Here This best dot com to buy your tickets. Okay, good, Great,