1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: There's an episode of Oprah Winfrey's talk show from nineteen 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: eighty eight that I always think about because it touches 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: on so many things I've also struggled with. It's her 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: highest rated episode of all time, and in it, a 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: svelt Oprah in tight Calvin Klein Genes dramatically reveals to 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: her audience that she has just lost sixty seven pounds 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: and tells them how she did it. 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: What I did was I fasted without cheating for solid 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: six weeks. 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: And to demonstrate how much weight that is, Oprah will 11 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: wheel out a visual eight, a classic child's red wagon 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: that holds a giant, clear plastic bag filled with fat 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:51,319 Speaker 1: sixty seven pounds of animal fat. To be precise, I'm 14 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: Susie Bannacharam. 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 3: And I'm Jessica Bennett. 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: This is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: cultural moment from the past that shaped. 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 3: Us we just can't stop thinking about. 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about Oprah's little red wagon of fat, 20 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: but we're also talking about the literal weight we all 21 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: carry and the pressure women feel to be perfect. 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 4: So, okay, Susie, there must be you know, thousands of 23 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 4: potential Oprah moments we could unpack here Why the little 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 4: red wagon of fat. 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: So. 26 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this about me, but 27 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: I've always been a huge Oprah fan. I loved her 28 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: show and I watched it whenever I could growing up. 29 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: And while I didn't watch this particular moment because it 30 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: happened in nineteen eighty eight and I would have been 31 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: pretty young, I've seen it so many times because it 32 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,639 Speaker 1: was just this like, very famous episode and it's shown 33 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: in all of her retrospectives. And I think the reason 34 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about it is there something she 35 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: said at the time when she revealed that she'd lost 36 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: this weight. And what she said was, this is the 37 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: most difficult thing I've done in my life. It is 38 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: my greatest accomplishment. 39 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 3: Wow, her greatest accomplishment. 40 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's obviously not the case, right, I mean, 41 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: she's accomplished so much since, and she had accomplished so 42 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: much even at that point. So it's a complicated statement 43 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: and definitely one she's walked back since. But it resonates 44 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: for me because I think for a lot of women, 45 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: myself included, this sense that you're measured by your physical 46 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: weight is really pervasive, like something you kind of struggle 47 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: with your whole life. And we'll get into that, but 48 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: I'm curious just before we start, like, were you an 49 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: Oprah fan? 50 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 4: Well, honestly, I think I'm more familiar with today's Oprah, 51 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 4: like media mogul, first black woman, billionaire, trailblazer in so 52 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 4: many ways, and of course someone who can always score 53 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 4: the first sit down. But you know, I wasn't an accolte. 54 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 4: I didn't grow up watching her. I wasn't the type 55 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 4: of person that would, you know, rush home every day 56 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 4: after school and turn on Oprah. 57 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 3: But Susie, were you that kind of Oprah fan? 58 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I think it was just like a 59 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: sort of an appointment. Oprah was on at four pm 60 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: every day, and especially when I was in school, Like 61 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, you come home, you turn on the TV, 62 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: you do your homework, whatever. But that's something that feels 63 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: kind of ever aprisive. When I eventually would have a DVR, 64 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: I would DVR the show. And I remember once having 65 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: like a guy friend over and being like, do you 66 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: dvr Oprah? And like being really embarrassed really about it. 67 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, because you know, it's like this in 68 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 4: high school, No, this was like in my twenty years. 69 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, and I was like really defensive. I 70 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: was like, I have to watch it for work, and 71 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: he was like, what do you mean, Like you're a 72 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: news journalist, and I was like, yeah, I mean but 73 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: I work at ABC, and like it has to I 74 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: have to know what's happening on Oprah. And by the way, 75 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: we did cover Oprah a lot on World News Tonight, 76 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: where I worked at that time, Like, okay, it was 77 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: in fact true that it was useful for me to 78 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: watch Oprah because things would happen on Oprah and we 79 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: would cover them. Right, she covered serious topics and sometimes 80 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: she would have guests that knew that Lelland can get gotten. 81 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 4: Yes, and I think worth mentioning. Celebrities didn't have a 82 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 4: direct line to their fans back then. Like if you 83 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 4: wanted to do an interview or code a thing, or 84 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 4: get something out or try to recover from whatever shitty 85 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 4: thing you'd done that you were groveling over, yeah, you 86 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 4: would have to go sit on Oprah's couch. 87 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: And that was considered like a great booking, right if 88 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: you were a celebrity, you wanted to be able to 89 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: go to Oprah. That was as much a boon to 90 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: you as it was to her, which I don't think 91 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: there's really a comparison to. 92 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 3: That now, No, absolutely not. 93 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 4: I mean I still always think about the Tom Cruise 94 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: jumping on her couch moment, even though that was much later. 95 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's such an infamous moment. 96 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 4: Right, So all these celebrities would go sit on her 97 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 4: couch and that was a big component of this. But 98 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 4: there was also something for the audience about community in 99 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 4: watching that show, isn't that right? Like people would gather 100 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 4: you were part of a I don't know, would you 101 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 4: call it a family? 102 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: Yes, you were like part of this Oprah family. She 103 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: really like drew you in. Eventually there was like the 104 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: famous book club. The idea was you were like reading 105 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: a book with her. You were experiencing bra shopping with her, 106 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: like her episode about being properly fitted for bras was 107 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: a really big success for her. Right. She was basically 108 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: just telling you how to live, as she would put it, 109 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: your best life. And there were lots of different ways 110 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: she was teaching you to do that, Like you could 111 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: read this book The Secret that was really popular at 112 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: the time, or the Law of Attraction, and you could 113 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: manifest things in your life, and you know, specifically, you 114 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: can manifest money, which I think was very appealing to people. 115 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: Still pretty appealing, Yeah, and. 116 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: I think it's like something you see a lot on TikTok. 117 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: Now it's part of the vernacular. 118 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 4: But you know, we should also state the obvious, which 119 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 4: is that it wasn't just manifesting not her to wear. 120 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: She was. 121 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 4: She was a trailblazer in so many ways. You know, 122 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 4: Obra was the first black female host of a national 123 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,119 Speaker 4: talk show, and when she became that, she completely wrote 124 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 4: the mold for what a quote unquote traditional TV host 125 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 4: looked like, which was still usually white and mostly male. 126 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean. Oprah tells this story and interviews about 127 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: how when she was first offered this talk show, she 128 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: reportedly said to the man who was offering her the job, 129 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: but you know, I'm black and I'm fat. And so 130 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: she's so aware not just of the racism, which let's 131 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: be honest, that could be a whole other show, but 132 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: she's also aware that thinness is a really essential part 133 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: of being seen as a public figure at this time, 134 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: and so she feels the need to say that even 135 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: as she being offered this huge opportunity. 136 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 5: Okay, but she takes the job obviously. Yeah, she takes 137 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 5: the job and it's a huge success. Right, Her local 138 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 5: talk show gets national syndication and she becomes a household name. 139 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 5: But really, from the moment she starts to get this 140 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 5: national coverage, she gets so much attention around her weight. 141 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 3: So her weight essentially becomes part of this story. 142 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always part of her story. And there's a 143 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: great example of this in nineteen eighty six she does 144 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: an interview with Mike Wallace. So it's right after she's 145 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: gone national and Mike Wallace is on Sixty Minutes, which 146 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: at the time is just this huge show. Twenty three 147 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: million people tune in every Sunday night to watch it. 148 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: I remember we would get together as a family and 149 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: watch it on and this is how that interview unfolded. 150 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: When she was twenty two, she moved to Baltimore and 151 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 2: became an anchor woman on a local TV news show. 152 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: This was sixty pounds ago. She were sixty pounds lighted 153 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: sixty pounds ago. 154 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: I think of my life in terms of my thighs. Wow, 155 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: this is just one example of how Oprah's always sort 156 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: of had to be very public about her weight. It's 157 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: almost impossible to tell how much the conversation was driven 158 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: by media coverage and how much she just decided to 159 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: share it to preempt kind of all this criticism she 160 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: knew was coming. And I think it's also partially why 161 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: she's so successful. She's really vulnerable and relatable, but that 162 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: comes with a cost. 163 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 4: So I want to get back into the moment itself, 164 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 4: the little wagon a feat moment. 165 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: Do you have any memory of it? Like, is this 166 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: something that jogs a memory for you? 167 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 4: It's funny because I don't know this exact moment, but 168 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 4: I do have this very like eighties image in my 169 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 4: mind of Oprah standing looking very svelt in like a 170 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 4: black turtleneck and these kind of like chic mom jeans, 171 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: like high waisted kind of mom jeans. So I must 172 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 4: have seen that image in magazines or in retrospective Yeah. 173 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's just one of those images 174 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: that really follows her around for the rest of her life. 175 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: And this episode is still to this day the highest 176 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: rated one, and I'm going to walk you through it 177 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: just because it's fascinating on so many levels. 178 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm ready. 179 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: So this episode airs in November, and there's already been 180 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: a lot of build up because when she returned for 181 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: her show that season in September, she is noticeably thinner. 182 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: She has already lost like thirty or forty pounds, so 183 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: everyone kind of been asking how did she lose the weight? 184 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: How did she lose a weight? And so she keeps 185 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: sort of assuring the audience that she's going to tell 186 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: them how she does it. And so like the AP 187 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: sends a reporter then like to the show, to the show, 188 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: like it's become a national story, and because it's already 189 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: a national story, and Oprah, because she's a genius, is like, 190 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: I will not tell you until sweeps, which is when 191 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: what sweeps sweeps is when Nielsen does its annual kind 192 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: of assessment of ratings. So you're advertising dollars are connected 193 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: watches the show and sweeps, and she is a smart woman, 194 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: so she's like, I will tell you when it is 195 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: most cost effective for me. So the show starts and 196 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: Oprah is wearing like a red coat that is the 197 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: last time I was in the Calvin Klein size tingeens 198 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: until too Yeah, and she's like to da, and she 199 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: dramatically like flings off this coat, reveal her like new 200 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: spelt wait felt, Look this black turtleneck and she's wearing 201 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: these Calvin Klein beans that she hasn't been able to 202 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: fit into for years. She's saved. 203 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: They're her jeans. They're herjeanes that she's like saved. 204 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: They're her like thinging okay, and she was like I 205 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: will fit into these again, and now she can fit 206 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: into them. And she's tucked her jeans into these like 207 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: kind of like cool high field. Yes, yes, yes, So 208 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: it becomes this very iconic image of her. Okay. So 209 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: this is kind of this wild moment in the study. 210 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: The audience goes wild. They've been given pom poms. They're 211 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: like shaking pom poms like they're like yay, like it's 212 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: so exciting, and they've given they've given pom poms. 213 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 3: And then the wagon is behind her. 214 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: So that's the This is the first segment of the show. 215 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: She comes out, she reveals, and then she's like commercial again, okay, 216 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: and she's not gonna like give you everything up front. 217 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 4: And so it's great to have your TV knowledge in 218 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 4: the background of this, because like, I don't think about this, 219 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 4: you wait till after the commercial. 220 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: Right, like you're just constantly trying to keep people reasons 221 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: to continue to tune in or stay tuned in. Yep, 222 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: she gives you the reveal at the top, which becomes 223 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: a very common talk show trope, right this like body reveal, 224 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: Judy has lost a total of twelve pounds. Judy, let's 225 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: see the new you today. Junior can probably say he 226 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: lost the most weight of anyone on today's show. Let's 227 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: bring out the new Junior. Eventually, it actually becomes pretty 228 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: common to do these kinds of reveals in a bathing suit. 229 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: And there's actually another really famous episode of Oprah with 230 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: Christy Alli where she also does this big reveal. 231 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: Exactly one year ago, Kersy bowed to walk on our 232 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: stage in a bikini once she reached her goal weight, 233 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: and she did. 234 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: That was a very famous one, but there was a 235 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: lot of very famous kind of examples of this. And 236 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: so here she is, she's lost all this weight. There's 237 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: a cut to a commercial break, and she knows that 238 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: she's got to keep you entertained. So what is the 239 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: idea she has had for the second segment of the show. 240 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: It is that she comes out and she's wheeling this 241 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: little red wagon full of fat. 242 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: Now, they didn't think it was a literal wagon. 243 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: No, it's like a literal red wagon, like a child's wagon. 244 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: Her staff has gone to a local barbecue joint, and 245 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you the name of the joint 246 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: because I discovered it in my research. I had never 247 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: Chicago before. In Chicago, it is called Moo and Oin. 248 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: That's the name of the place where they get the fat. 249 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 3: Okay, so that's fine for the name of a barbecue joint. 250 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: It is in the context of it being like the 251 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: weight I've lost. It's like literally, like in some weird way, 252 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: referring to yourself as like a cow or a pig. 253 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: I don't know why. It just really struck me as unfortunate. 254 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: That's the name MoU and oink. So she wheels out 255 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: this wagon with this clear plastic garbage bag filled with 256 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: animal fat, and she's standing next to it addressing the audience. 257 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 2: I have lost as of this morning, sixty seven pounds 258 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 2: since July seventh, sixty seven pounds. 259 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: I think this is the first time she gives you 260 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: the actual number. Okay, you know, because she's again and 261 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: she's try trying to keep you engaged, and she also 262 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: ticks through her measurements and says, wow, you know, I've 263 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: lost thirty inches from my bust, my waist, Emma hoops. 264 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: And then she gives you the specific six seven on 265 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: my bust, twelve on my waist, eleven on my head. 266 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: She's like pointing and. 267 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: This, this is what's sixty seven pounds. 268 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: She's literally like, look at this. I used to carry 269 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: this around and I can't even lift it up down 270 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: because she lift it up and it's so disgusting. Is 271 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: this growth or what I mean? She's really inviting the 272 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: audience to examine and stare at her body in a 273 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: way that I personally would never choose. And I think 274 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: is just a super interesting fact about this. Right, Celebrities 275 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: in general, female celebrities, especially their bodies are under such 276 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: a microscope, and in this case, she has kind of 277 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: embraced that and is putting her own body under this 278 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: microscope for the audience. 279 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 3: Okay, so what comes next? 280 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: So what comes next is a segment where Steadman, her 281 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: boyfriend at the time, calls in to congratulate her. But 282 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: Steedman himself is kind of an interesting character in this 283 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: because he's her longtime partner. They are still together. They 284 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: never got married, but later on she will say he 285 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: is the reason she embarked on this particular weight loss journey. Okay, 286 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: it will be reported at some point that over dinner 287 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: one night, she asked him, you know, if it ever 288 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: bothered him that she was overweight, and that there's this 289 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: long pause, and he says something along the lines of, well, 290 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: it's an adjustment. 291 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 3: Oh god, this makes me so sad. 292 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she sort of feels this as a gut punch. 293 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: I think she says, at some point, my instinct was, 294 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: I don't want to be somebody's personal growth journey, which 295 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: is just a way of saying, like you've basically told 296 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: me I'm not enough or I'm an adjustment, which is 297 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: just a horrible thing to say to someone. And so 298 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: shortly after that conversation, she embarks on this very intense 299 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: diet that leads us to this particular moment. Okay. So, 300 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: and another thing that happens in this particular episode is 301 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: that she reads from her journal entries, and I'm going 302 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: to read you a little piece of this section of 303 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: her journal that she reads what is the bigger issue here? 304 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: Self esteem. I realize this fat is just a blocker. 305 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: It is like having mud on my wings. It keeps 306 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: me from flying. There's been a way of staying comfortable 307 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: with other people. My fat puts them at ease, makes 308 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: them less threatened, makes me insecure. So I dream of 309 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: walking into a room one day where this fat is 310 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: not the issue, and that will happen this year, because 311 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: the bigger issue for me is making myself the best 312 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: that I can be. 313 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 3: It is very vulnerable. 314 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: It's very vulnerable. 315 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 4: I mean, I can you can imagine the audience, mostly 316 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 4: women probably who have probably struggled in one way or another, 317 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 4: because haven't we all really feeling like this resonates? 318 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this obviously residents for me. I'm someone 319 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: who struggled with my weight my whole life, and you know, 320 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: I think a lot of women and a lot of 321 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: men also can really relate to this feeling of if 322 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: I just lost ten pounds, everything would be perfect. If 323 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: I just lost five pounds, everything would be perfect. There's 324 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: this sense that our weight is very defining for us, 325 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: and it is always this nagging thing we are trying 326 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: to fix in ourselves. But I think also this vulnerability 327 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: that Oprah demonstrates is why she becomes such a big success. 328 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 6: That's so interesting. I've never thought about it that way. 329 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 6: I mean, I admire her ability to be so vulnerable, 330 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 6: because I've always found it really hard to talk about 331 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 6: this subject. I mean, I can talk about a lot 332 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 6: of things, but I gained a lot of weight in 333 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 6: my late twenties and early thirties, and I was diagnosed 334 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 6: with PCOS, which is polycystic ovarian syndrome, which is now 335 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 6: something you know, people have heard of, but it wasn't 336 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 6: really well known when I was diagnosed, and even now 337 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 6: it's still pretty poorly understood by the medical establishment. So honestly, 338 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 6: I didn't tell anyone at the time or even really 339 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 6: talk about it with my friends, like much less announce 340 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 6: it to the whole world. Like it's really a lot 341 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 6: right to go out and reveal so much about yourself. 342 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 4: In some ways, that's so different from what we tend 343 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: to see now, especially on social media, where like vulnerability 344 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 4: or I don't know, foe, vulnerability is almost a currency 345 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 4: in some ways. But it sounds like that was definitely 346 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 4: not the case back then, and certainly not in the 347 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 4: talk show landscape in the nineteen eighties, right, Like how 348 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 4: common was that at the time. 349 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: It was pretty uncommon. I mean even Oprah's initial shows 350 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: were pretty tabloidy, right. The talk show atmosphere in general 351 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: was much more tabloidy. It was like Phil Donahue and 352 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: Sally Jesse, Raphael and I mean not being father, You're 353 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: not the father. That becomes like a trope a little 354 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,479 Speaker 1: bit later on. But you know, she is kind of 355 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: elevating the medium in a way, and she will slowly 356 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 1: do that over time until there comes a point where 357 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: the Oprah Show is actually seen as kind of like 358 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: a premium product rather than what it initially is, which 359 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: is kind of like a tabloidy talk show. And one 360 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: of the ways in which she does that is by 361 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: being really vulnerable about these things in her life, like 362 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: about sex abuse she experienced as a child, about her weight, 363 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: Like she really pioneers a thing that now is so 364 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: common because of reality shows and social media, which is 365 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: that if you open up your own experiences, people feel 366 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: much more connected to you. And she leads on a 367 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: dialogue that's just not very common at that time, right, 368 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: you know, she's talking about sex abuse when that's still 369 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: a very taboo subject. She's acknowledging these issues with her 370 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: weight when I don't know how common it was to 371 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: just say that you're fat and you're trying to lose weight. 372 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: She will go on to talk about mental health issues, 373 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: about race. She'll do these really difficult race shows where 374 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: she will have on racists who will say terrible things 375 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: to her face, and she will like explore that. So 376 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: this is kind of where you start to see that 377 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: shift happening. 378 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 4: Oh okay, but this episode isn't intended to be particularly serious, right, 379 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,959 Speaker 4: it sounds like it was pretty festive. Does she end 380 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 4: up getting into the details of how she actually lost 381 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 4: the weight. 382 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, she does talk about that. She essentially starves herself 383 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: to lose this weight. She drinks protein powder shakes of 384 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: roughly four hundred calories a day. Like, if you're trying 385 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: to lose weight and you're a woman who's like she's 386 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: like five six, I think the usual standard is that 387 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: you're eating somewhere between twelve hundred and fourteen hundred calories. 388 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: That's to lose weight. You're eating that she is medically supervised. 389 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: It's a medically supervised diet, okay, But I think it 390 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: also just reveals the way that the medical establishment approached 391 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: weight for a long time in this country was pretty barbaric, 392 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: Like they would never give you this diet now, it's insane. 393 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: But she not only kind of says, here's how I 394 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: did it. She literally pulls up the protein shakes and 395 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: the company that they, yeah, it wasn't sponsored. I mean, 396 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: I think that's before people realize you could get sponsors 397 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: for stuff. Okay, but shows it and their sales go 398 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: through the realm. I mean, like everything crashes for them. 399 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: It's a big day. 400 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 4: And then later on she's not able to keep the 401 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 4: weight off, Like how. 402 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: No, she can't keep the weight off. I mean she 403 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: so she basically does this for four months. She says 404 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: later on, I literally starved myself, like I did not 405 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: eat anything. Basically, I didn't have a morsel of food. 406 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: And then she will say at some point that this 407 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: just basically shot her metabolism and that two weeks after 408 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: she returned to eating food, she had already gained ten pounds. 409 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: I mean that's not a surprise, right. 410 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: No, I mean, like this kind of thing is unsustainable. 411 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: You can't just dring shakes for the rest of your life. 412 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: So you know, now they'll tell you that you have 413 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: to do it in a different kind of way. But 414 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: back in the eighties, there was just this idea that 415 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: losing weight in any way, no matter how drastic, was 416 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: always good. 417 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 4: Okay, So I feel like it's worth pausing for a 418 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 4: moment to talk about what was going on in the 419 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 4: world at this time. 420 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:57,959 Speaker 1: Yes, I'd love to know more about it. 421 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 3: It's nineteen eighty eight. 422 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 4: Like, you know, there's no like Lizzo body Positivity, Big 423 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 4: Girls Show, There's. 424 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: No I Love my Curvy wife guy. 425 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and thank god that guy. 426 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 4: Was totally We're not having like debates about whether fat 427 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 4: or curvy, or plus size or overweight is the right 428 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 4: and most inclusive terminology. Like this is the eighties, Like 429 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 4: this is the era of Jane Fonda and Lea'sard's. 430 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 2: Jane Fonda's workouts are constantly improving the science of staying. 431 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 4: And slim fast, which had been pulled from the shelves 432 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 4: in the nineteen seventies, is now back on the market. 433 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: Give us a week, we don't take off the weight. 434 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 3: Jenny Craig has launched, which was like another subscription. 435 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: I did Jenny Cregg. 436 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 2: We hope you lose weight and teach you what you 437 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: need to know. 438 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 4: To keep it all Lean Cuisine, those disgusting TV dinners 439 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 4: that were like on suburban American TV. 440 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: Why describing that to me as if I've never had 441 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: leave Amy. 442 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: Our audience is younger than us. 443 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: It's not just the caloriesaid count, it's the taste. But 444 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: I also want to tell you that in my most 445 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: anarexic phase, my best friend from college, Claire, remembers and 446 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: always talks about this moment when I was like really 447 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: really having like disordered eating and which is not an 448 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: expression I knew at the time, And she spent a 449 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: weekend with me and I ate half a Lead Cuisine 450 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: pizza and was like, oh, yeah, I'm so full. Wow. 451 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: And she was like, there's no way you're full from 452 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: that like tiny piece of bread you just consumed. 453 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 4: Fascinating, Okay, which brings me to this is also five 454 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 4: years after Karen Carpenter, who was one half of the 455 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 4: folk duo The Carpenters, had died from you know, complications 456 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 4: related to anarexia. 457 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 2: Basically a Carpenter died this morning, the victim of cardiac arrest. 458 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 3: The Grammy Award winning singer was only thirty two years old. 459 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 4: So we're sort of just waking up to this idea 460 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 4: that diet culture is a thing. 461 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: I don't know even if it's that or if it's 462 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: just that we're slowly beginning to realize that not all 463 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: weight loss is just an objective good. Yes, right, I 464 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: think up until this point of just like losing weight 465 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: is an objective good, and that is really like part 466 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: of housewife culture for a long time, right. But I 467 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: think what happens in the eighties is that it becomes 468 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: just a broader sort of national obsession where everyone's like 469 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: learning to exercise. 470 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 4: And so there's a Senate report put out in the 471 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: late nineteen seventies that basically says, like Americans needs to 472 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 4: just stop eating so much fat. 473 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: I have such a connection to that because my mom 474 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: was always trying to lose weight. So I just remember 475 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: all of these diets. But I remember kind of the 476 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: intensity of that in the eighties, how much we were 477 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: constantly like being bombarded by these images of you need 478 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: to lose weight, you need to lose weight, and like, 479 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: here are the ways in which you could be doing that. 480 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 3: In that context, honestly, Oprah's diet doesn't seem that shocking. 481 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the thing we know now is that Oprah 482 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: will struggle with her weight and this will be an 483 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: ongoing topic of discussion for her for the rest of 484 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: her life. 485 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 3: Right. 486 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: That kind of leads us back to the point I 487 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top, right, which is the reason we're 488 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: talking about this, which is that she says, and I'll quote, 489 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: this is her greatest accomplishment. 490 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 4: I think it's worth pausing to just review some of 491 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 4: Oprah's accomplishments because you know, at this point, she's starred. 492 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 3: In the color Purple, Yeah, which was nominated for an Oscar. 493 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: She was nominated for an Oscar, like she was actually 494 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: for her particular role, and it was a Steven Spielberg movie. 495 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: So even if she hadn't been nominated for an oscar, 496 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: just being in a Steven Spielberg movie is a huge accomplishment, right, 497 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: It's like something to be proud of. Also, she's just 498 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: launched this talk show. Right, It's only been two years 499 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: when this episode airs, and she's already getting sixteen million 500 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: people who regularly watch the show. I mean, that's a 501 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: huge number even by those standards, like that would be 502 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: an insane number today, but at that time even it 503 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: was a wildly successful number. And on top of that, 504 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: the New York Times reported that the year that she 505 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: made this episode, she made twenty five million dollars. Wow. 506 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: She will also go on to become the first black 507 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: female billionaire two thousand and three. There's really not many 508 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: people who can say they've accomplished as much as Oprah. 509 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: But let's pause here and do what Oprah would do, 510 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: which is pick up after the break. 511 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 4: Okay, Susie, So I want to talk a bit more 512 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 4: about your personal connection to this moment. You know, you 513 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 4: mentioned earlier on in the show that you struggled with 514 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 4: your weight and that was part of why you wanted 515 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 4: to take this subject on. 516 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, listen. I think weight was always a 517 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: big topic in my house. It was always a big issue. 518 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: I think because my mom struggled with her weight, and 519 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: I sort of first became conscious of weight in relationship 520 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: to her and the struggles she was having and how 521 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: much she was constantly kind of trying to lose weight. 522 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: And much like the Stedman story, I think some of 523 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: that did come from my father and her sense that 524 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: he might in some ways be displeased by her not 525 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: being as thin as she once was. And then slowly, 526 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: over time I took in those messages and then eventually 527 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: I turned them on myself. And what's fascinating is when 528 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: I go back and look at pictures of her from 529 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: this time, she was, by no objective measure fat, but 530 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: she kind of was teaching me unintentionally because it was 531 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: something she was struggling with herself that, like what she 532 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: looked like was unacceptable, and so I remember being like, oh, 533 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: she is fat, kind of accepting her version of what 534 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: she was. And in some ways, that's why I try 535 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: never to talk about my issues with my weight like 536 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: you and I have never really talked about this particular 537 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: thing for me, because I think one thing I have 538 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,239 Speaker 1: very consciously done as an adult is try not to 539 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: project this struggle outwards, because I don't want everyone to 540 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: kind of be focused on my weight. And I feel 541 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: like if I'm talking about it all the time, I'm 542 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: inviting it's kind of like the opening, right, I'm inviting 543 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: everyone to have an opinion about my situation. And I 544 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: think also I had gained a bunch of weight right 545 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: before middle school, and then my dad actually died right 546 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: before I was in middle school, and I remember my 547 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: mom saying to me, he was really worried about your weight. 548 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: And I think that's when it really started to take 549 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: hold for me, where I was like I started to 550 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: always be on a diet, and then I went to 551 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: boarding school, and I think there's like this period, this 552 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: relative period where I'm fine, I don't remember kind of obsessing. 553 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: I was pretty thin at boarding school. The focus at 554 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,719 Speaker 1: boarding school was like on why I wasn't blonde and 555 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: blue eyed, So it was like I wasn't constantly obsessing 556 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: about my weight. But then slowly after college I started 557 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: to gain weight again, and probably in my late twenties 558 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: and early thirties, I really struggled. And I think in 559 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: some ways that's why I picked this moment, because I 560 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: was always aware of this moment, right, and I was 561 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: always aware of how much Oprah's weight was part of 562 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: her kind of journey. But I think as I got 563 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: older and I started to feel those same feelings that 564 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: nothing I did would ever really be a success unless 565 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: I also could take control of my weight, right, Like 566 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,239 Speaker 1: I really felt a lot of shame about it. I 567 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: really struggled with dating, which I had not really struggled 568 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: with before, because I really saw it as like a 569 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: personal failing in myself that I had started to gain 570 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: this weight even though there were very clear medical anyzings, 571 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: Like it's not rational, right, but I had this really 572 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: intense sense that I was failing in this really big 573 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: way and that that is why nothing else in my 574 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: life was perfect. 575 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 4: It's so interesting the way you put that, because it 576 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 4: both feels so closely aligned to what Oprah said about 577 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: this being her quote greatest accomplishment, but also how this 578 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 4: is something of a universal experience among women, right, Yeah, 579 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 4: Like if it's not our weight, it is something else 580 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 4: we feel holds us back from I don't know, maybe, 581 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 4: as Oprah would put it, living our best life. 582 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing is ever quite enough. So it's like I'm 583 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: hugely successful, but I never had kids. I'm hugely successful, 584 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: but I'm fat. I'm hugely successful, but I never got married, 585 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: or I'm divorced. There's always You're always looking for the 586 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: thing in yourself that is the flaw that keeps you 587 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: from being able to feel perfect, perfect and whole and successful. 588 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: And as the years have gone on, this moment has 589 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,239 Speaker 1: resonated for me more and more as I've seen it, 590 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: as I've sort of had the context for it, right, 591 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: I sort of go back and relook at this moment 592 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: and re examine it and rewatch it, because it really 593 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: starts to feel like a thing I can see myself 594 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: having done in her position. Like there is a lot 595 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: of ways in which we could look back and say 596 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: Oprah contributed to diet culture, and she did, but she 597 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: was a victim of that culture, right. She made people 598 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: feel less alone in that journey, but she also reinforced 599 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: the idea journey that they needed that journey. 600 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 4: It sounds like she was trying to make this her story. 601 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 4: People could come cover this event whenever, but it was 602 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 4: going to be her event. She was going to kind 603 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 4: of control this narrative. Definitely's profit on it. 604 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that's definitely the case. But 605 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: what it also does is instead of giving her ownership 606 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: over the story, which may have been what her intention was, 607 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: she actually completely loses control of the story. 608 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 4: And you said before that this episode was super successful, right. 609 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean eighteen million people watched this episode. It 610 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: was the most watched episode ever in her twenty five 611 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: year run. 612 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 613 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: But then she is for months and months after this 614 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: just absolutely hounded by paparazzi who want to take pictures 615 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: of what she's eating, who want to comment on whether 616 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: or not she's continuing to gain weight again. There is 617 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: just this like huge ongoing conversation in the media with 618 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: nutritionists and doctors and commentators talking about like was this 619 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: a healthy way to lose weight? Can she keep the 620 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: weight off? What will happen? And so instead of actually 621 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: taking control of the story, she's kind of given the 622 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: story over in a way, and it spins wildly out 623 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: of her control. And she does really resent that. I mean, 624 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: she says later on how harmful it felt to her 625 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: to have this conversation about her all the time, and 626 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: all this coverage kind of prompts this real defensiveness in 627 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: her right where she is saying things like I never 628 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: was happy being fat, I'll never be fat again. Never. 629 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: She becomes really irritated when people are commenting on this stuff, 630 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: and she says things like, asking me if I'll keep 631 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: the weight off is like asking me, will you ever 632 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: be in a relationship again where you allow yourself to 633 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: be emotionally battered. I've been there and I don't intend 634 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: to go back. 635 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 4: She talks about herself almost as if it was her 636 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 4: former fat self and her present skinny self, like she 637 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 4: has severed these two parts of herself. 638 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. It is just this real distinction 639 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: she draws where she talks about that person with disdain, 640 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: is like, I am now fixed. This is like an 641 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: inflection point. I will never go back to being that person. 642 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 4: Which, if you think about it, so then when you 643 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 4: do go back to being that person, because everybody fluctuates, yes, 644 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 4: and you've completely publicly said that that person is disgusting, Yeah, 645 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 4: Like what does that do to your right? 646 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: You've described this version of yourself as like a bad 647 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: version of yourself, and then you do eventually go back 648 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: to that version. And at the same time, you're dealing 649 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: with your own sort of internal struggle with the fact 650 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: that you clearly like hate this version of yourself so 651 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: much that you wanted to like hold up a bag 652 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: of like animal fat and be like this was me. 653 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: But at the same time, you're also being inundated with 654 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: headlines about look, you've gained weight again, Look what your 655 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: weight is, why are you gaining weight? What did you 656 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: do wrong? And that messaging, which I mean I cannot 657 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: imagine with my own weight issues having that layered on top. 658 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: I mean that has to feel insane. And there's this 659 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: fascinating quote in the BBC from this profile in twenty 660 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: eleven that I found, where it literally says if Oprah 661 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: is remembered for anything, it will be her body shape, 662 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: which mirrored America's obsession with its own body shape, Like, 663 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: how can that be what she will be remembered for? 664 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: She is quite literally one of the most successful women 665 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: on the planet. You know what we've never talked about, though, 666 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: is I don't actually think I know anything about your 667 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: relationship to your weight or weight loss or body issues. 668 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 3: I mean, I. 669 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 4: Feel like to some extent growing up in eighties and nineties, 670 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 4: like was it possible to come out of that with 671 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 4: a healthy body? 672 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 6: Imass? 673 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: I certainly did not. 674 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 4: I had come up in this sort of nineties Seattle 675 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 4: run right kind of heroin weak. 676 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, basically heroin chic. 677 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 4: And I remember specifically having this tag from a pair 678 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 4: of Calvin Klin underwear, like I wasn't allowed to buy 679 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 4: name brand stuff. I had saved my money to get. 680 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 4: Do you remember those Calvin Clin underwear that had the 681 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 4: band on the top and they would sort of show 682 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 4: above your genes And Kate Moss was the model for them, 683 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 4: And so she was on the tag and it was 684 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 4: her in the underwear and her perfect wafee probably anorexic stomach. 685 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 4: And I kept that tag in my underwear drawer so 686 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 4: I could look at it and compare how my stomach 687 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 4: was compared to that. 688 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 3: You know, my parents would be horrified to get. 689 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 4: Like, had they found that, they would have had to 690 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 4: have a serious conversation with me about weight. But and 691 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 4: I was thinn so it wasn't a concern. We didn't 692 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 4: really talk about it. But like, yeah, we all dabbled 693 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 4: in starving ourselves. 694 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think it really was impossible to be 695 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: a girl in this country. Or maybe it's still impossible. 696 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 3: That's the question. 697 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 4: So like, okay, now we talk about dieting as health 698 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 4: and wellness, and now we're you know, we just want 699 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 4: to be healthy and just when our intermittent fasting. 700 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 3: Is because it's actually like better for our brain yee. 701 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: It's like biohacking. Now, like that all the Silicon Valley 702 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: dudes are dieting, but they don't call it dieting. They 703 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: call it bio hacking. And that makes it more acceptable 704 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: because it's less feminine, right, diets girls. 705 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 4: And we can celebrate that all body types are wearing 706 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 4: crop tops now, and then if you actually look into 707 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 4: the data, you find that, yeah, like rates of anorexia 708 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 4: have not gotten. 709 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 1: Down, No, they've gone up actually. 710 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 3: So it's like we've packaged it. 711 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've just repackaged it in a way to make 712 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: it less embarrassing to talk about. Like, one of the 713 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: things that drives me crazy is that we just replace 714 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: the word diet with fasting, and fasting is acceptable, like, oh, 715 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: I'm going on a liquid fast. It's like, no, that's 716 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: not good for you. Drinking juice for four or five 717 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: days or whatever is not actually good for you. And 718 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: anyone who knows anything about like nutrition will say to 719 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: you that it's a terrible way to lose weight. But 720 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: because we call them cleanses juice cleanses, no one can 721 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: say to you, hey, is that a good idea? Because 722 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: it's like, you're just trying to be healthier and who 723 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: could argue with that. But it is this really complicated 724 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: thing because on the one hand, we're like body positivity 725 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: and on the other hand, Selena Gomez goes to an 726 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: award show and then is inundated with comments about how 727 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: she looks like she's gained weight. So I don't think 728 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: celebrities feel less scrutiny about this. I think we just 729 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: pretend there's less scrutiny. 730 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 4: It's interesting too, So it's like, then, once you become 731 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 4: a celebrity who is larger, the culture turns on you 732 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 4: if you do is the way like. 733 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean sort of similar to what happened to Oprah. 734 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: Right when she lost the weight, there was like a 735 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: little bit of a backlash to it, and when she 736 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: started to gain it back, people in the audience would 737 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: be like, we love you fat. That is kind of 738 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: this complicated thing at Dell lost a bunch of weight, 739 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: and I feel like there was this real, sort of 740 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: like complicated relationship with it. But the most notable example 741 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: of that is I think you know, Lizzo is vegan 742 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: now and at some point she shared on her TikTok 743 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: this shake she was having, and there was this enormous 744 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: backlash like you're supposed to be a body positive you're 745 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: promoting unhealthy eating, et cetera, et cetera. And that also 746 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: feels unfair because Lizzo is allowed to make decisions about 747 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: her body without being judged. 748 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 4: Well It's sort of like all diets have been framed 749 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 4: as wellness, but then when a person is actually doing 750 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 4: it for health, we criticize them for dieting one hundred percent. 751 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 4: And now, of course we're in the age of ozempic. 752 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 4: This is the diabetes term weightless drug. It's on magazine covers. 753 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 4: Seemingly everyone is on it, and there's all this backlash 754 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 4: to celebrities who are believed to be taking it. 755 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: So I think the Ozempa conversation is interesting because it 756 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: just shows another way in which we want to control 757 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: how women deal with their bodies. We want our celebrities 758 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: to be thin, but not if they're not doing the 759 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: hard work right getting thin, you have to earn thinness. 760 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: Thinness is something to attain, to work hard at, and 761 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: it's felt like it's cheating to take this diet drug. 762 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: There is this sense in America that you should be 763 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: able to overcome your problems just with like sheer toughness, 764 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: and so that's how we feel about mental health, and 765 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: that's also how we feel about weight loss. 766 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 3: I think that's so right. 767 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, And what's interesting is we've been working on this 768 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: you know episode for a while and thinking about these issues. 769 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 1: And then Oprah just recently released this special on her 770 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: site Oprah Daily, and the specials called The Life You 771 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: Want class The State of Weight, and it's about ozepic 772 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,760 Speaker 1: and Manjaro in these class of drugs, and she talks 773 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: about this exact thing that we think about weight as 774 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: a matter of willpower, but really it's a medical issue. 775 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 2: You know, one of the things I carry, you know, 776 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 2: so much shame because I was publicly shamed about it. 777 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 2: And even when I first started hearing about the weight 778 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: loss drugs at the same time, I was going through 779 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 2: knee surgery and I felt, I've got to do this. 780 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 4: On my own. 781 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 2: I've got to do this on my own, because if 782 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 2: I take the drug, that's the easy way out. 783 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 4: It's so interesting to hear her say that because there 784 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 4: have been so many rumors that she of late is 785 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 4: on ozempic. 786 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,760 Speaker 3: Does she address that directly in the special? 787 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 1: She doesn't address it directly, And I think she doesn't 788 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: have to write it's like those are just rumors. She 789 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: doesn't have to explain to the world how she is 790 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: or isn't losing weight. I mean, that's very much the 791 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: thing she's been fighting against, right But what's so interesting 792 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: about the special to me is that it really focuses 793 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: on how we're just now as a culture, really coming 794 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: to understand that obesity is a disease, right, it's not 795 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 1: this behavioral thing. And you know, even though the American 796 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: Medical Association declared obesity a disease like ten years ago, 797 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: that really hasn't taken shape. So I get that. Yeah, yeah, 798 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: And so they're on the special. There are these doctors 799 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 1: like from Harvard and NYU lingon, and there's actually the 800 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: CEO of weight Watchers, right because you know, even they 801 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: now need to understand that it's not just a matter 802 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: of keeping track of points. 803 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 4: That's so interesting because it wasn't Oprah at one point 804 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 4: a spokesperson or an investor in some way. 805 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think she owns a stake in weight Watchers, 806 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: and that's mentioned in the sort of conversation with the 807 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: weight Watchers person. But you know, I think that is 808 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: the issue, right, is that for years, if you did 809 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: weight watchers, lost weight and then regain the weight, you 810 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: thought that the problem was you, but in fact that 811 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: these are actually your genetics at play or your brain. 812 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: There's lots of scientific reasons why you may struggle with 813 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: weight loss and also with maintaining weight loss. And you know, 814 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: even for Oprah, who has followed this for so long, 815 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: she says that, you know, it's an idea that even 816 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 1: she is now just starting to embrace. 817 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,760 Speaker 2: One of the things that I've been so ashamed, shamed 818 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 2: myself about, and was shamed in the tabloids every week 819 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 2: about for twenty five years is not having the willpower. 820 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 4: It's just crazy to hear her say that, because it 821 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 4: truly has followed her. 822 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 3: That's what we've been talking about here throughout her career. 823 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really feels like this moment, this Red Wagon moment, 824 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: is some thing that set a tone for the way 825 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: people felt like they could talk about her and her weight, 826 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: and it's something she looks back on with a lot 827 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: of regret, right like, over the years, when she talks 828 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: about this episode, this Red Wagon episode, she says it's 829 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: hard to watch and when she watches it, she wants 830 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: to say to herself, like, don't do it, even though 831 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: it's a great TV moment, And that really gets to 832 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: the heart of this story. I think this is one 833 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,280 Speaker 1: of the most watched episodes in arguably the most popular 834 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: talk show of all time, but it's definitely not something 835 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: Oprah would now say was one of her greatest accomplishments, 836 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,720 Speaker 1: which makes sense right. It opened up a conversation about 837 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,919 Speaker 1: her that she was then plagued by, and I want 838 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 1: to let her have the last word on how she 839 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: thinks about it all. Now here's what she said in 840 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: her recent special. 841 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 2: Whatever your choice is for your body and your weight health, 842 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 2: it should be yours to own and not to be 843 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 2: shamed about it. As a person who's been shamed for 844 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 2: so many years, I'm just sick of it. 845 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: I'm just sick of it. I'm just sick of it. 846 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 2: And I hope this conversation begins the unshaming. 847 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a 848 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: cultural moment you can't stop thinking about and want us 849 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,240 Speaker 1: to explore in a future episode. Email us at inretropod 850 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com or find us on Instagram at 851 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: in retropod. 852 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 4: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 853 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 4: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 854 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 4: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 855 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 4: which we may or may not delete. 856 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 857 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: and at suzib NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist 858 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: Fight Club and This Is Eighteen. 859 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 4: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 860 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 4: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 861 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 4: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and 862 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 4: associate producer. 863 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 864 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 865 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Additional editing help from Mary 866 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: Doo and Mike Coscarelli, Sound correction and mastering by Amanda 867 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,399 Speaker 1: Rose Smith. We are your hosts Susie Vannecarum. 868 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,919 Speaker 4: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. For even more 869 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 4: check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.