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Speaker 1: Matt seb how are you doing today? I'm good man.

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Speaker 1: I just got married. You did just get married married

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Speaker 1: Former guest Francesco fi you know, yeah, one of our

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Speaker 1: favorite guests with our least favorite. Oh shit, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm just being an asshole. We love you. That's why

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Speaker 1: I've brought you on to read you a twelve thousand

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Speaker 1: words script about um script. Oh a script. That's right,

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Speaker 1: Matt um, because because I do love you, we have

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Speaker 1: such a good time and I wanted to celebrate you.

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Speaker 1: You have embarked on this new chapter of your life,

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Speaker 1: making it very sad. Yeah. Actually this is the perfect

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Speaker 1: palate cleansitor to a weekend of joy, that's right, that's

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Speaker 1: coming on this podcast and just being just torn to

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Speaker 1: shreds emotionally because there's gonna be no joy here. Matt. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel? How do you feel? First off,

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Speaker 1: I guess have you ever heard of a motherfucker named

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Speaker 1: Lynn Carter Arlen Carter? I don't think so. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter's brother, Oh boy, not at all. That would

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Speaker 1: be Billy Carter. And Billy Carter will be on our

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Speaker 1: our episode behind the Heroes. Because I thought you were

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Speaker 1: going to ruin. You know that guy is uh pretty dope.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine back when like the biggest scandal a

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Speaker 1: president had was that like his brother made bad beer.

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Speaker 1: What a time? What an administration? Yeah, it was just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: his brother's too cool. Dudes, dudes were not supposed to

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Speaker 1: rock this much. That was, you know, that was the

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Speaker 1: biggest This guy out of the White House and put

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Speaker 1: in a dude who's gonna do part of a genocide anyway. Matt,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel about the proliferation of firearms in

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Speaker 1: American society? Um, I'm pro okay. I think you know,

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Speaker 1: the more guns the better, obviously, Uh nothing. You know,

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Speaker 1: the only thing that stops a bad guy with a

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Speaker 1: gun is a good guy with a gun. I think

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Speaker 1: we all know that. Um, And I think it's nineteen

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Speaker 1: good guys with guns stacked outside of a classroom for

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Speaker 1: seventy eight exactly. Dude just kind of sitting around waiting

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Speaker 1: to be like, I can't wait to be a hero.

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Speaker 1: I'll just give it another forty five minutes. You've got

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Speaker 1: a clock in first. So it's interesting. It's fun that

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Speaker 1: we got to the military, the incompetent militarization of police,

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Speaker 1: because this is a thing one of the things that's frustrating. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: you and I may have some slightly different attitudes towards firearms,

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Speaker 1: but i'm I'm I'm frustrated with American gun culture, which

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Speaker 1: I think is primarily toxic, and also the culture of

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Speaker 1: police militarization, which is toxic. Um And the guy we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about today, Harlan Carter, is the dude

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Speaker 1: who started both of those things. He's the guy who

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Speaker 1: started militarizing the police, and he's the guy who made

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Speaker 1: the n R a UM. So it is. Sophie's got

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Speaker 1: a picture of him. He looks like he looks like

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Speaker 1: who you would cast if you were putting Kingpin, that villain.

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Speaker 1: He looks like Kingpin, Like he literally looks exactly like

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Speaker 1: Kingpin and spoiler, I would prefer any gangster too. It's

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Speaker 1: not even body shaming. He just looks like like his

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Speaker 1: his neck is the width of his ears. He's like

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Speaker 1: a literal dick head, Like the most dick had his

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Speaker 1: head I've ever seen. He is a chowd someone poured

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Speaker 1: into a suit. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that

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Speaker 1: this is what Joe Rogan was like I want this.

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Speaker 1: And then someone has been cutting Joe Rogan's h H

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Speaker 1: with lemon juice just to try to keep him from

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Speaker 1: getting too huge. Joe got the amount of h g

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Speaker 1: H that he intended to shoot into his testicles. This

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Speaker 1: is how he would look. Yeah, he would look like

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Speaker 1: this guy his narrow, ben thicker. He's exactly the way

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Speaker 1: you are picturing him in your mind, listeners. He does

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Speaker 1: kind of look like because Alex Jones has that thick map,

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Speaker 1: but he like not that, not smaller, and and Joe

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Speaker 1: Rogan's got that that big muscle muscle guy head. If

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Speaker 1: like Joe Rogan and Alex Jones, if you like in

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Speaker 1: vitro fertilized, like cut their sperm and a half and

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Speaker 1: like merged him together with the egg from like a

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Speaker 1: dead California condor, you would get Harlan Carr. Is this

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Speaker 1: painting of him where he literally looks like Dr Evil?

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Speaker 1: He does? He does look like Dr Evil who painted him?

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Speaker 1: I don't know a lot of people. He's a very

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Speaker 1: important person we would not get drinks with. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to have to start by discussing the history of

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Speaker 1: gun control in the United States. And because this is

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Speaker 1: the United States that also started with white supremacy. I

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Speaker 1: can yes, like just from uh this is just a guess,

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Speaker 1: but I bet you gun control laws that have been

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Speaker 1: an act we're mostly racist. Yeah, It's it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things when you get these you get these arguments

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Speaker 1: online where like people will be like gun culture is

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Speaker 1: white supremacist, and it's like, yeah, an awful lot of

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Speaker 1: it is. And then folks who are pro gun will

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Speaker 1: be like, well, gun control is white supremacist, and you're

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Speaker 1: both right because it's the United States of America. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like if you try, it's like people talking about like, oh,

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Speaker 1: well the Democratic Party used to be like was a

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Speaker 1: white supremacist party for a very long time, and it's like, yeah, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: both major US parties are primarily rooted in white supremacy.

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Speaker 1: And it's always it's always super weird that, you know,

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Speaker 1: whenever someone is just like no, and it's like what

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Speaker 1: why are you? You don't need to be so attached

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Speaker 1: to being a Democrat that you're just gonna refuse to

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Speaker 1: believe that. It's it just doesn't make an argument one

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Speaker 1: way or the other about gun control because like you

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Speaker 1: could say, like zoning laws have a lot of the

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Speaker 1: rooting in a white supremacy. It doesn't mean zoning shouldn't

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Speaker 1: exist because fundamentally, yeah, factories maybe shouldn't be in the

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Speaker 1: same place as apartment complexes. But um, that also that like, yeah, anyway, whatever,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do our right, We're doing gun control, We're

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Speaker 1: doing CRT on this podcast. This is gonna be a

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Speaker 1: little a little bit. Yeah, we're getting into a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff, but we're gonna be talking a shipload about

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Speaker 1: the border patrol. But first let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the history of gun control in the United States. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: sixteen nineteen thereabouts is when the first African enslaved people

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Speaker 1: are brought to the United States. Well, it wasn't the

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Speaker 1: United States then, but you know what I'm saying, right,

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Speaker 1: the colonies against their will. Um. And not that long after,

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Speaker 1: in sixteen eighty, which is pretty quick considering how slow

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Speaker 1: things went back then, the Virginia Assembly passed one of,

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Speaker 1: if not the earliest gun control laws in the colonies. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: this law did not restrict the ability of white people

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Speaker 1: to be armed. It might even be more accurate to

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Speaker 1: say it wasn't gun control but weapons control. Um. But

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Speaker 1: this law, passed in sixteen eighty made it a crime

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Speaker 1: for any African American to carry a weapon or weapon

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Speaker 1: like object. Now that last term there is interesting, man,

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Speaker 1: because you could I mean, I like, as a man, right,

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Speaker 1: anytime you're out in the world, you think about all

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Speaker 1: the different things you could use as weapon. Everything's it's

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Speaker 1: just a thing that happened every room going, what could

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Speaker 1: I use for self defense? And or if I just

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Speaker 1: felt like harm on someone? Yeah, if I had to

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Speaker 1: defend myself against the eighty four year old man next

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Speaker 1: to me in the post office, how hard could I

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Speaker 1: hit him with one of these empty cardboard boxes? Seriously,

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Speaker 1: in the genes of of every dude is just Mark

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Speaker 1: Wahlberg going, I would have stopped nine eleven if I

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Speaker 1: had been on that plane, and you know that's that's

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Speaker 1: all of us. It would have been so funny. It

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Speaker 1: would have been really funny if he'd, like if he'd

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Speaker 1: stopped it, but then he'd had to try to land

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Speaker 1: the plane and had accidentally crashed it into the White House,

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Speaker 1: Like oh god. Anyway, So as you might guess, the

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Speaker 1: vagueness around the term weapon like object mean that meant

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Speaker 1: that the law it didn't just like banned black people

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Speaker 1: from from carrying guns. Um. It meant that they could

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Speaker 1: be punished brutally for holding any object if it could

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Speaker 1: be used to hit somebody. This started what wound up

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Speaker 1: being like a more than a century long tradition of

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Speaker 1: elderly black people being banned from having canes. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: because you can hit someone with the cane. Right as

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Speaker 1: Gandolf showed us. You know, yeah, they weren't. They weren't

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Speaker 1: being fooled by that. In Virginia in sixty Yes, we

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Speaker 1: will part an old man for this walking stick. I

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Speaker 1: know a wizard staff when I see the one, you

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Speaker 1: think I don't know. You're gonna cast a spell now,

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Speaker 1: this being sixty years after the forced importation of African

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Speaker 1: slaves to the continent. The sixteen eighty law was aimed

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Speaker 1: at slaves, obviously, but it applied equally. There were some

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Speaker 1: freed black people in the colony at this period, and

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Speaker 1: it applied to them as well. The law was amended

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Speaker 1: in seventeen twenty three to specify that Africans African Americans

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Speaker 1: were not allowed to use firearms for any purpose, be

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Speaker 1: at hunting or self defense, and again seventeen twenty three.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of important to be able to use a gun,

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Speaker 1: you know, just if you're living in the Virginia frontier. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of other people with guns, and it

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Speaker 1: seems just like you need food and stuff, you know,

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Speaker 1: and there's bears like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. How

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Speaker 1: do you catch your food? Yes, if you are not

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Speaker 1: allowed to use a gun, you can trap. But I

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Speaker 1: think the purpose here and no one's thinking about like

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Speaker 1: they're not. They're doing whatever they can to make these

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Speaker 1: people's lives harder because like they're terrified of the existence

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Speaker 1: of free black people. UM. And under this law, a

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Speaker 1: free black person who defended himself from a white person

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Speaker 1: using a firearm was committing a crime. Um. Technically with

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Speaker 1: any weapon, like any like any tool they were to

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Speaker 1: use to defend themselves would be illegal. So gun control

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Speaker 1: in the early colonies, UM. Most of the time, these

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Speaker 1: kind of laws in Virginia were sort of the exceptions

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Speaker 1: of the rule UM because as a rule, like there

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Speaker 1: were the laws were less kind of specifically banning certain

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Speaker 1: things and more just kind of generally trying to make

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Speaker 1: it possible for black people enslaved're free to challenge white

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Speaker 1: supremacy in any way. Um, So it wasn't just guns.

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Speaker 1: And in fact that because guns were like not as

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Speaker 1: good back then, those were less of a focus than

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Speaker 1: some other objects that might surprise you. Possession of dogs

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Speaker 1: by black people was heavily regulated in this period. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was not impossible, but it was very hard. If

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Speaker 1: you were a black person who wanted to own a

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Speaker 1: dog in Maryland in the early seventeen hundreds, for example,

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Speaker 1: you were forced to get a license from the Justice

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Speaker 1: of the Piece who was going to be a white man. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it was not easy to get a license from

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Speaker 1: a Justice of the Piece for this um and if

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Speaker 1: you managed to get one, you were still restricted to

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Speaker 1: owning no more than one dog at a time. Mississippi

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Speaker 1: banned the ownership of dogs for black people under any circumstances,

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Speaker 1: and even allowed slave patrols to kill dogs found in

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Speaker 1: the house of a black person. So the police tradition

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Speaker 1: of shooting people's dogs is very old. Indeed, of course

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Speaker 1: I should have I I should have known. Of course,

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Speaker 1: dog control also, uh, you know, ties directly to white supremacy. Well,

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Speaker 1: and it's one of those that you have to Again,

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Speaker 1: weapons firearms are a lot less deadly back then. So

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Speaker 1: like a gun, you get one shot and it's not

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Speaker 1: easy to reload. Um, I think, but yeah, dog, a dog,

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Speaker 1: you don't need to reload, right, A dover min will

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Speaker 1: keep fucking going until yeah. Um, So that's what you know,

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Speaker 1: white folks were particularly scared of. And again it's also

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Speaker 1: worth noting obviously the prohibition against black people carrying guns

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Speaker 1: or their weapons makes sense if you're afraid of a

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Speaker 1: slave or you know, just an uprising. Right because a

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Speaker 1: group of people with guns can do an uprising, you

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Speaker 1: can't really effectively organize a bunch of dudes and their

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Speaker 1: dogs to do an uprising together. It's hard to I'd

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Speaker 1: like to see it, though. It would be cool what

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Speaker 1: they're doing here. They don't want black people to be

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Speaker 1: able to defend themselves from like mob violence, like individual

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Speaker 1: and families. They don't want them to have any kind

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Speaker 1: of defense if like somebody wants to do a murder,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jesus Christ like inventing inventing laws that are

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Speaker 1: completely useless, the idea that somehow this is like, oh well,

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Speaker 1: we can't we can't kill that guy. He lives in

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Speaker 1: a kennel filled with ravenous dogs surrounding him like he's

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Speaker 1: fucking Ramsey Bolton, just like ready with hungry dogs if

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Speaker 1: I'm yeah. So in the late seventeen hundreds spoilers, the

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Speaker 1: American Revolution broke out. Yeah, and by seven we have

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Speaker 1: us a constitution. You know, we we get we we

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Speaker 1: fight them English, we beat him, and then we're like,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, this first government we tried as a giant

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Speaker 1: ship show. We should probably like give another shot at this.

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Speaker 1: And they in a constitution, and eventually this constitution comes

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Speaker 1: to include a Bill of Rights and the now infamous

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Speaker 1: Second Amendment. Um, we're gonna be talking a lot about

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Speaker 1: the changing ways this has been interpreted through time, and

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Speaker 1: despite what people on tend to say on either side

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Speaker 1: of them oder an issue, there are a couple of

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Speaker 1: different ways to interpret how the so called Founding Fathers

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Speaker 1: intended it to function. And again, as a general rule,

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Speaker 1: they weren't all in agreement about pretty much anything, um,

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Speaker 1: but one thing is perfectly clear. They did not see

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Speaker 1: the right to bear arms is extending to black people. Now,

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Speaker 1: black people were not categorically forbidden from owning weapons in

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Speaker 1: the new United States, but in those states where it

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Speaker 1: was legal for them to own arms, they were always

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Speaker 1: required to register those weapons with the government. This was

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Speaker 1: not the case for white people. While there was some

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Speaker 1: hope during the Revolution among black Americans that independence would

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Speaker 1: bring about an improvement in their circumstances, um, and that

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Speaker 1: was not unreasonable. Again, the British Empire allowed slavery too,

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Speaker 1: So at this stage in time, it's not like it's

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Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable to hope that like, well, maybe things will

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Speaker 1: get better when they don't have a king anymore, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: obviously that doesn't happen. Um. And when that doesn't happen,

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Speaker 1: there's some uprisings in the New United States. In eighteen eleven,

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Speaker 1: Louisiana uprising of enslaved persons ailed, and in response to this,

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Speaker 1: New Orleans made it a crime for black people to

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Speaker 1: carry weapons. And this was again primarily even more than guns.

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Speaker 1: Banned them from stuff like canes, um, crutches, wheelchair yeah,

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Speaker 1: any yeah, definitely with an assault wheelchair. Yeah. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: as we've discussed in our Behind the Police series, many

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Speaker 1: Southern police departments started as slave patrols, made up of

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Speaker 1: armed white dudes searching for escaped slaves and using weapons

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Speaker 1: to keep a boot on the neck. Of even free

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Speaker 1: black people. In eighty five, Florida gave slave patrols the

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Speaker 1: right to enter any black person's home and take away firearms, ammunition,

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Speaker 1: or any other weapons found. And obviously these kinds as

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Speaker 1: as is the case with no knock raids today, these

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Speaker 1: often we're basically just pretexts to kill people in their

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Speaker 1: homes by saying you felt threatened. Yeah. Now, in the

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Speaker 1: early eighteen sixties, obviously we have US a civil war

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Speaker 1: over slavery, and broadly speaking, this goes pretty well. Uh,

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Speaker 1: if you're if you think slavery is bad, US civil

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Speaker 1: war broadly speaking is a goes all right. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the most kind of revolutionary aspects of the

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Speaker 1: Civil War is that, for the first time in US history,

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Speaker 1: a shipload of black men are legally carrying guns in

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Speaker 1: an organized way. A hundred and seventy nine thousand black

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Speaker 1: people serve in the Union Army, which is roughly ten

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Speaker 1: percent of its total um. And you suddenly have tens

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Speaker 1: of thousands of black men with guns marching across the

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Speaker 1: US South, which really freaks out people in the South. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's got to be the scariest thing. Everything looked at

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Speaker 1: that and we're like, see, this is what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: This is the scary ship I did not want to happen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is why we're losing. Started this war that we're losing.

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Speaker 1: So post Civil War, Um, black people are not immediately

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Speaker 1: entitled to the same rights as white people. UM. So,

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Speaker 1: starting in eighteen sixty five, which is the year the

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Speaker 1: war ends, states like former you know states that had

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Speaker 1: lost basically start enacting black codes. Um. And these are

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Speaker 1: kind of okay, these people aren't slaves any more, but

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Speaker 1: we we want to treat them that way, So let's

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Speaker 1: just write new Let's just we'll take the old laws

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Speaker 1: that we had that restricted slaves from doing things in

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Speaker 1: order to keep them under control, and will replace the

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Speaker 1: word slave with servant or you know, something similar, so

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Speaker 1: that we can try to hold them under the same laws.

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Speaker 1: In Mississippi, black people were still banned from possession weapons

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Speaker 1: or ammunition. Uh. And if white people turned them in

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Speaker 1: for this crime, they would be given their firearms as

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Speaker 1: a reward. And again this is after they've been freed,

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Speaker 1: so they like should have the right to bear arms

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Speaker 1: and whatnot. UM. I want to quote now from Honors

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Speaker 1: thesis by Alexandra Lenzetta from the University of Colorado quote

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Speaker 1: other Southern states to enact their own set of Black Codes,

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Speaker 1: where Alabama and Louisiana both states prohibited African Americans, not

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Speaker 1: including veterans, from owning guns without a license or special permit.

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Speaker 1: Not surprisingly, these permits and licenses were controlled by white men,

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Speaker 1: making it virtually impossible for a black man or woman

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Speaker 1: to legally obtain a gun. This resulted in many blacks

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Speaker 1: illegally purchasing guns, making the potential penalties of exposure even great.

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Speaker 1: Punishment for having an unlicensed firearm was a fine and

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Speaker 1: confiscation of the weapon. Old slave patrols re emerged to

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Speaker 1: enforce the Black Codes and to terrorize African Americans. This,

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Speaker 1: along with a combination of great incentives to catch blacks

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Speaker 1: with weapons and a hatred over their new found freedom,

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Speaker 1: created a white frenzy, making it extremely difficult to hide

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Speaker 1: a gun as an African American. White frenzy is the

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Speaker 1: worst frenzy. It's and it's it's it's the most common

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Speaker 1: frenzy to in this country. It's it's it's the most

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Speaker 1: traditional American frenzy. But it is not is not a

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Speaker 1: fun law. We do love us a frenzy. Friends, we

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Speaker 1: love a good frenzy. We love a bad frenzy. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five, right, bunch of bunch of black codes

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Speaker 1: come into effect to basically try and keep black people

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Speaker 1: in similar positions to how they've been during slavery even

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Speaker 1: though the war was over. So in eighteen sixty six,

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Speaker 1: the US Congress passes the Civil Rights Act, um, which

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Speaker 1: this is like there's a big old fight over this,

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Speaker 1: and this is the this is the law that basically says, hey,

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Speaker 1: you actually have to these people have the same rights

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Speaker 1: that white people have, right, Like that's what that does,

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Speaker 1: you know? Um, And you know, things do get a

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Speaker 1: lot better for a while. You know, at that point

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Speaker 1: was like, look, do you ever just like read up

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Speaker 1: on reconstruction and go like, holy sh it for a

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Speaker 1: hot second there we seem to be on a good

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Speaker 1: track from on a good track, like it seemed like

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Speaker 1: it was gonna like workd out. Think things made a

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Speaker 1: lot better for a while, and then there's a violent

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Speaker 1: reaction from the reactionaries. Um, and they do an insurgency

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Speaker 1: which is kind of centered around the KKK. We have

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Speaker 1: talked about this in other episodes. It ends with a

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Speaker 1: series of demeaning, bigoted laws aimed at maintaining white supremacy

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Speaker 1: in the former Confederacy. Uh. These are you know Jim

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Speaker 1: Crown laws, right, and and these these come into place

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Speaker 1: alongside a wave of lynchings which kill at least like

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Speaker 1: five thousand Black Americans. Obviously there's no way of knowing

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Speaker 1: the actual total. Good chance it was significantly more, but

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Speaker 1: at least five thousand. Um. So in response, black people

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Speaker 1: do what you would expect. They form malicious you know,

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Speaker 1: they start carrying guns for what. I don't think I

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Speaker 1: need to explain the logic here, right, Um, and they

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Speaker 1: organized to stop lynchings. This culminates in Louisiana in eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy six, where a bunch of klansmen who are also

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Speaker 1: government officials, These are like elected leaders in Louisiana who

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Speaker 1: are also in the KKK, are charged with conspiring to

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Speaker 1: disarm a meeting of Black Americans. Basically, like one of

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Speaker 1: these groups of black folks had gotten together with guns

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Speaker 1: to like figure out how to protect their community, and

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Speaker 1: these state officials like trying to take their weapons away. Um,

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Speaker 1: a bunch of courtship happens. It goes to the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court who rules in favor of the Ku Klux Klan,

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Speaker 1: saying that the state had the legal right to disarm

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Speaker 1: this meeting to protect the common good. UM. And you know,

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Speaker 1: in this period of time, there's also one of the

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Speaker 1: things that's happening during the lynching period is sometimes lynchings

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Speaker 1: get stopped because the person who was attempted to be

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Speaker 1: lynched has a gun and they shoot the people trying

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Speaker 1: a lynch them. When that happens, a number of laws

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Speaker 1: are passed in different towns and states to ban the

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Speaker 1: carrying of concealed firearms. And in fact, those are some

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Speaker 1: of the first specific laws against the carrying of concealed handguns. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is an area where like the kind of the

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Speaker 1: anti gun control people tend to focus entirely on this stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's very much worth noting all gun control in the

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Speaker 1: United States in this period is not based in white supremacy,

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Speaker 1: in part because a lot of it is put in

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Speaker 1: areas where like most of the population is white. UM.

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Speaker 1: And there was it's worth noting significantly more gun control

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Speaker 1: in portions of the like the so called wild West. UM.

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Speaker 1: Then there are in a lot of those same states today. UM.

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Speaker 1: In places like the Dakotas and whatnot. It was common

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Speaker 1: for the open carrying of firearms to be restricted in

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Speaker 1: many towns. If a visitor came into town, they would

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Speaker 1: be expected to leave their guns with the local police

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00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,919
Speaker 1: before entering. They'd get like a little card or something. Um,

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Speaker 1: you weren't supposed to like like there were it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's and there's you know, a lot to be said

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Speaker 1: about like why this is being done, but in general,

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Speaker 1: it's being done because they see that it's it's perfectly

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Speaker 1: reasonable to say that, like, well, there should be restrictions

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Speaker 1: on what you can do in town with a firearm,

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Speaker 1: right with a gun seems uh, I don't know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they certainly don't want you doing it openly. And then

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Speaker 1: like there's a bunch of there's laws about carrying concealed

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Speaker 1: and those kind of vary from place to place. But

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Speaker 1: it's worth noting that the infamous gunfight at the Okay

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Speaker 1: Corral actually occurred because a guy like it was over

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Speaker 1: gun control, right, like a guy was openly carrying his

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Speaker 1: guns in the city. Um, and you know there was

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Speaker 1: as far as I'm aware, like everyone involved in that,

403
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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it was like a white dude. So

404
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Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything particularly racist in the Gunfighter.

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Speaker 1: You could talk about it, be it involving like police overreach,

406
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Speaker 1: which people will make the case that like this was

407
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: this was a case of like a fucking early cop

408
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Speaker 1: going bug funk on some people. Um, but don't tread

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Speaker 1: on me. And yes, people, did you see this whole time?

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Speaker 1: I I didn't know that that was a real gunfight

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Speaker 1: at the ok. Yeah, oh no, no, no, it's a

412
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Speaker 1: pretty cool story as as it perfectly accurately described in

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Speaker 1: the documentary Tombstone. It's a great starring Val Kilmer. Yeah. Yeah,

414
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Speaker 1: I thought the reason was, you know, like a card

415
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Speaker 1: game got lost or something, or someone had like extra

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Speaker 1: aces up their sleeve. But it turns out gun control. No,

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Speaker 1: that would be the that would be the documentary ship

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Speaker 1: was it, Maverick, what's the documentary card guy who gets

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Speaker 1: like the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I need to rewatch that. That

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Speaker 1: That was a good fucking that's a good movie. My

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Speaker 1: other guest was going to be a giant metal spider.

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Speaker 1: Yes over my third favorite documentary, and this is what

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Speaker 1: brought about the famous US law against the carrying of

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Speaker 1: gigantic metal spiders, which I consider to be the civil

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Speaker 1: rights era of the day. I think, of course, I

426
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 1: think access to giant metal spiders should be democratized. I mean,

427
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 1: that's just the only thing that stops a bad guy

428
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: with a giant metal spider is a good guy with

429
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 1: a would argue that you can't be a bad guy

430
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 1: with a giant metal spider, because look, no matter what

431
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 1: it's doing, if I get to see a giant metal

432
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: spider trumping around town, my day has improved. Like okay,

433
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 1: but that spiders. Everyone feels safe and everybody feels better

434
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: with a giant metal spider. So this podcast is brought

435
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: to you by Giant Metal Spider dot com. Promo code

436
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 1: Giant Metal Spider get yours today, Actually right on time

437
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 1: because that time, well, look, everybody's talking a lot about

438
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 1: a R fifteens. You know what's more powerful than an

439
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 1: R fifteen A metal spider spider the size of the

440
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 1: Chrysler building. Uh that is scary. Yeah, yeah, we're back,

441
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 1: so you have you know again the Wild West, how

442
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: common gunfights and stuff were, especially in like cities and

443
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: towns is exaggerated. Um, but also there was a lot

444
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: of like there were a lot of robbery. There were

445
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: a lot of crimes like and and it's it's the

446
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: same as it is today. Like the gunfights that have

447
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: kind of come down to history were like the ones

448
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: that the media went nuts on in the day, like

449
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 1: the gunfight of the Okay Corral um. But broadly speaking,

450
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: by the end of the eighteen hundreds, most places in

451
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: the United States had banned the concealed carrying of handguns.

452
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 1: Um although open carrying remained legal in a lot of places.

453
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: We'll talk about when that ended. Uh. In eighteen ninety three,

454
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 1: the government of Texas said that quote the mission of

455
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: the concealed deadly weapon as murder to check it as

456
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: the duty of every self respecting law abiding man. And

457
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: again he was probably saying that primarily because he didn't

458
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: want black people to have concealed guns. This is the

459
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: governor of Texas in three, so do keep that in mind.

460
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: But um u s gun control in this period was

461
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: at least deeply preoccupied with the specter of armed black people,

462
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 1: and even where laws were perfectly reasonable, they were often

463
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: used specifically to enforce white supremacy, even if that hadn't

464
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: been the initial intent of the Lenzetta writes quote. Another

465
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: example of discrimination is found in legal proceedings during the

466
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: Jim Crow era involved in eleven year old black boy

467
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: with a toy gun and St. Louis and nineteen hundred,

468
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: it was illegal to fire a gun within city limits,

469
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: and the boy was charged for violating this law. However,

470
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: when his case was being reviewed by a judge to

471
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: determine his guilt, it was discovered that the gun was fake.

472
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: Knowing this new information, the judge should have dropped all charges,

473
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: given that it is not possible to fire a fake gun,

474
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: but this was not the case. Instead, the boy was

475
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: found guilty and the judge find him ten dollars almost

476
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: three and ten dollars today, which is interesting. I did again.

477
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: Another thing that goes back very far is black kids

478
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: being penalized for having toy guns exactly quite quite far back. Yeah,

479
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's literally just these are like rulings. It's like, well,

480
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: you scared me. Yeah, that's that's the entire thing that

481
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: has been the I believe the explanation for the deaths

482
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: of countless, countless black people. Well, and it's also just

483
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: like this, I was scare Perhaps we don't like, perhaps

484
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: were fundamentally frightened by the concept, even if it's a

485
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 1: toy of like black people having guns, because that's how

486
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: we maintain our power over them. Right, Which is again,

487
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: even in these areas where concealed carrying or open carrying

488
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: is illegal, it's generally not illegal for white people to

489
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: do if they're being vigilantes. Right. This is a key

490
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: aspect of this period, and this brings us back to

491
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: the glorious state of Texas. Like much of the South,

492
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: after the Civil Rights Act, legislators had to at least

493
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: pretend that their laws meant to disarm black people were

494
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: not motivated by racism. Brendon Rivas from Texas Christian University

495
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: Rights quote. The post eighteen sixty five laws, however, used

496
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: race neutral language to accomplish a racially motivated goal. Most

497
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: of these laws attempted to disarm black Texans, but some

498
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: from the eighteen seventies stopped to curb the racial violence

499
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: of the Ku Klux Klan by disarming everyone. For instance,

500
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: a part of the Texas Slave Code prohibited slaves from

501
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: carrying a gun without written permission from a master or overseer,

502
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: and a law of past in eighteen sixty six prohibited

503
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: laborers from carrying firearms onto a plantation without the owner's consent.

504
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: In racial neutral and race neutral language at the eighteen

505
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: sixty six law achieved the same result as the Slave

506
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: Code without specifically declaring that African Americans should be disarmed.

507
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: Their arming was conditional, subject to the authorization of an

508
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: interested white party. Similarly, the state's first comprehensive weapons control

509
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: law did not use racially charged language, but left enforcement

510
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: in the hands of local officials who could apply it

511
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: selectively against uppity blacks or white vigilantes, depending on which

512
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: political party controlled those local offices. And you can guess

513
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: which of those happens more often. And this is the

514
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: state of affairs legally in the state of Texas. When

515
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: Harlan Bronson Carter is born on August tenth, nineteen thirteen,

516
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: in Granbury, Texas, UM. Now, at the time, Granberry's primary

517
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: claim to fame was that it was the home of

518
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: Davy Crockett for a little while. Um, and every town

519
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: in Texas was Davy Crockett's home for a little while.

520
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: Not super impressive, UM, and every town is just he

521
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: stayed at a motel here for two weeks. Yeah, and

522
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: he's talking all our hookers. He's he's like a celebrated

523
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: hunter and frontier guy. And Harlan certainly like I I

524
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: heard god knows how many fucking stories about David fucking

525
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: Crockett when I was a kid in my mandatory Texas

526
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: history class. I am going to guess, in like nineteen twenty, young,

527
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: young Harlan Carter is growing up and learning even more

528
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: of these stories. Um. And obviously he's also in mention

529
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 1: the local gun culture of the time. Um. Pretty much

530
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: everywhere is semi rural. So he's you know, he does

531
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: a lot of hunting, he does a lot of target shooting. Uh.

532
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: He becomes an excellent shot from an early age, and

533
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: he he develops an intense affinity for firearms, shall we say. So.

534
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: When he's young, the family moves to Laredo, and Laredo

535
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: is a border town, right um, And his father they

536
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: moved to Laredo because his father is a Border patrol

537
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: agent um, and in fact is one of the very

538
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: first border patrol agents. So the year that they moved

539
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: to Laredo is n Harlan's fourteen, um. And it's the

540
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: same year that a Border Patrol inspector named Clifford Perkins

541
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: makes a trip to the town and expresses in an

542
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: official document, has shocked to find that quote Laredo was

543
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: strictly a Mexican town. Probably nine of the people were

544
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: either Mexican or of Mexican descent. He adds with horror,

545
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: the only Anglo on the police force was the chief himself.

546
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: And this is an interest like Laredo at this point

547
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: because it's it's so heavily Mexican. Is not a town

548
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: controlled by white people and the police are not a

549
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: white force, right. You know that quote I read earlier

550
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: states that like kind of the laws against gun control

551
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: were usually mainly like uh, put into force against like

552
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: armed black people, but depending on politics, could be used

553
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: to try to stop white vigilantes. Well, this is one

554
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: of those towns where maybe that's more likely because the

555
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: police force is not white. Um so the border for

556
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: t however, is not happy with the idea of a

557
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: town where Mexican folks are running things, right that does

558
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: not thrill them. Yeah, so you know they'll start inviting

559
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: other Mexicans to live here and they won't stop the border.

560
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I love the idea of these like people

561
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: going to a town right on the border of Mexico

562
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: in Texas which used to be Mexico, and being like,

563
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: what the hell are all these Mexicans don't Yeah, these

564
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: communities that had been there for decades before a state

565
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: of Texas was a thing that anyone had thought of,

566
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: being like, these people are going to change the nature

567
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: of Texas. Yeah, this is not the Texas I know

568
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: that we invented about twenty years Yeah, that we invented

569
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: when I was fifteen. Exactly. So this inspector guy Perkins

570
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: again as exactly as racist as you might expect, and

571
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: he decides that Laredo's immigration cops are not going to

572
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: be able to enforce US immigration restrictions, which are again

573
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: geared towards enforcing white supremacy if the state of Affairs

574
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: and Laredo remains the way that it is. So he

575
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: carries out what he describes as a quote full scale

576
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: house cleaning. Now in the wonderful book Migra, Kelly Hernandez writes, quote,

577
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: he charged local officials, the chief Patrol inspector and Border

578
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: patrol officers in the Laredo station with immigrants smuggling and

579
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: forced just under half of Laredo's twenty eight Border Patrol

580
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: inspectors and the Chief Patrol Inspector to quit or be fired.

581
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 1: Perkins then transferred select Border patrolman who had all been

582
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: Texas Rangers into the Laredo sector because all were experienced,

583
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: well disciplined fighters who knew the country well. Detailing former

584
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: Texas Rangers to Laredo was a strategy used to divorce

585
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: the Border Patrol station from the local Mexican American political elite.

586
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: Tension quickly mounted between the X Rangers in the Laredo community,

587
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: particularly the Laredo Police Department, while the Border Patrol enjoyed

588
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: close relations with the local police in most borderland communities.

589
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: In nine several officers of the Laredo Border Patrol got

590
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: in their Model T automobiles and spent about half an

591
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: hour circling and shooting up the police station. A holy

592
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: fucked so he clean's house, brings in a bunch of

593
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: Texas Rangers, which is like the most racist police force

594
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: in the United States at this period, and has them

595
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: shoot up the police station. Fucking A. I mean like,

596
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: on the one hand, a cab Yeah, it's like on

597
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: the one hand, but on the other hand, I don't

598
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: think it's a I think it's just these particular cabs,

599
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, they're going after specifically an

600
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: armed group of Mexican Americans. It's also probably worth noting

601
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: but that in this period, if you're being a fucking being,

602
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: a being a Mexican American police officer in Laredo in

603
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: nineteen is a bit different from being a police officer

604
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: pretty much anywhere in the United States at this point,

605
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: which is part of like why the Border Patrol is

606
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: purging them, because he's like, you, guys, they're not stopping

607
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: they're not stopping immigration. They're not like violently cracking down

608
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: on people who aren't white. They're not in saying white supremacy.

609
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: So we had to get rid of them with guns. Um.

610
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: And they get rid of they do get rid of

611
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: the Laredo police force with guns. Um. So only time

612
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: in American history that police have been able to be fired. Yes, yeah,

613
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: this is the this is the one time it happened.

614
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: This is what it took one time. UM. So it's

615
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: safe to say that Laredo was a pretty wild place

616
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: when Harlan Carter was an adolescent. His father Horace, was

617
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: among the first cohort of Border Patrol agents hired in

618
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: n um and he was transferred to Laredo in n

619
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: is part of this process. It's entirely possible that Horace

620
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: Carter was one of the guys shooting that police station.

621
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: Um and And in this period of time, Harland's father

622
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: would have seen his job as explicitly to use violence

623
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: to assert white supremacy in a place where most people

624
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 1: were not white quote from Migra. Although most local stations

625
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: developed their own strategies, policies, and procedures, the Laredo station

626
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: was exempt until the men and the infamously brutal racial

627
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 1: violence of the Texas Rangers slashed away at the bonds

628
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: between the Laredo Border Patrol and local Mexican American leadership.

629
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: The cleanup transformed the Laredo Border Patrol into a refuge

630
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: for white violence within Mexican dominated Laredo. So they've turned

631
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: the Border Patrol prior to this, and they're all like

632
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: local guys, right, so they don't really care about like

633
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: Mexican America, like Mexicans coming into America because like that's

634
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: how they got there, right, that's their family everybody, like,

635
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: and again they also probably don't see the border as

636
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: this solid thing because they relatives have lived here for forever.

637
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: It used to not be like a thing to cross. Um,

638
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: but this is the period where the border is really

639
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: is becoming a thing in a way it hadn't been before.

640
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: And part of how they do that is they clean house,

641
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: bringing a bunch of white people and have them shoot

642
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: anybody who disagrees, right, Like, that's that's how the border

643
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: becomes real in Laredo, the American way, and it's how

644
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: borders are enforced everywhere. Yeah, um, borders are bad, yep, yep.

645
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: Although today, I mean there's a long conversation to be

646
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: had about the fact that the border patrol today is

647
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: extremely diverse. Like one of the things people on the

648
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: left particularly have gotten wrong about Vivaldi is like the

649
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: assertion that like, well, they probably didn't go in because

650
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: those kids were Hispanic. And it's like, have you seen

651
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: the pictures of the Valdi police. A lot of them

652
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: are Mexican American it's and the border patrol guy like

653
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's the whole thing. Like if you go

654
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: down to border communities, you'll see it's not that. Yeah,

655
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: as always as like superficial and simple as it as

656
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: it seems. Yeah. Um. So in nineteen thirty, Harlan, aged sixteen,

657
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: joins the National Rifle Association, and again the n r

658
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: A is rightfully again, I'm I'm more pro gun than

659
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: most people on the left tend to be. Um, But

660
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: the n r A is like, undoubtedly for we'll be

661
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: spending hours talking about this incredibly toxic. It's not at

662
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: this point, right, it's not. There's nothing wrong with the

663
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 1: n r A at this stage, really, um. And in fact,

664
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: the n r A has its roots on the correct

665
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 1: side of the Civil War. Um. There's these two Union

666
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: gym rules who were like because again civil War one

667
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 1: of the things early on the South is doing pretty well.

668
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: And part of why they're doing pretty well is that

669
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: like all the boys who like wind up fighting in

670
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: the Confederacy's military like their country boys, right, they've grown

671
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: up shooting and hunting. They're like and and using guns

672
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,479
Speaker 1: to enforce white supremacy. They're good with firearms, whereas most

673
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: of the northern boys who get drafted are like city kids,

674
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: and many of them had never had any chance to

675
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: to use firearms. So they're like they suck with them, right, Um.

676
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: And these two Union generals are like, boy, our soldiers

677
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: are really bad at shooting, and it takes a long

678
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: time to train them up. Maybe if we should get

679
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: ready for the next war by having an organization where

680
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: boys who grew up in urban areas can like go

681
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: in and learn how to shoot, you know, like that

682
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: seems like a good thing to encourage. Um. So that's

683
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: in the n r A up until the early twentieth century,

684
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: is like a sportsman's association. You're doing it for target shooting,

685
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: you're doing it for hunting. Um. Now, it is worth

686
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: noting that like from the beginning and who was not

687
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: seen as problematic at all at the time. There's a

688
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: military aspect to it as well. It's not like a

689
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: military organization, but part of the purpose of the n

690
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: r A is to prepare people to be part of

691
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: the military if necessary. And this is also the military

692
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: is a really different thing in this period. You know,

693
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: we have a big standing army during the Civil War,

694
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: but we hadn't before and we don't quickly afterwards. Right,

695
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: Like this is again, when World War One happens, they

696
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: have to like make an army. When World War two happens,

697
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 1: they have to like make an army in a way

698
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: that like it had not hugely existed prior to this.

699
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 1: So there's this understanding that like, if there's an emergency,

700
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: we're going to need to activate all of these civilians

701
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 1: and they need to be ready to like fight and

702
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: and and whatnot. Um So, Yeah, the U. S. Defense

703
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: Department would regularly hand over old weapons and other equipment

704
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: to the n r A, which would sell them to

705
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: members quite cheaply. This is used to be able to

706
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: get like World War Two guns like Garran's for really

707
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: cheap from the n r A. It was a bunch

708
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: of stuff they did like that. Um So. In February

709
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, the Carter family's car is olan from

710
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: in front of their house. Right, um now, they have

711
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: no idea who does this? The origin story of so

712
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: many racists go on, Oh boy, Matt so again, as

713
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: far as I know, it was never figured out who

714
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: had done this. But a couple of weeks after their

715
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 1: car has stolen. In March third, nineteen thirty one, while

716
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: Horace Carter is out at work, Harlan's mother sees three

717
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: Hispanic boys quote unquote loitering out in front of the house. Now,

718
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: she says loitering. We have no idea. It's they may

719
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: have just been like walking around or like even if

720
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: they're loitering, it doesn't justify this. But like racist white

721
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: lady sees people who are not white vaguely close to

722
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: her house and she decides that, like, these boys must

723
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: have been who stole my car? The earliest recorded incident

724
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: of Karen. Yeah, so Karen Carter calls the cops. Karen Carter, Well,

725
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: you can't really call. It's nineteen one. Some people do

726
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: have phones. I don't know if they do. It's not

727
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: easy to call. It's not as easy to call the cops.

728
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: They send age in or whatever. Those those guys. No,

729
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: her son winds up taking this into his own hands.

730
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: That's right. I'm going to quote from a write up

731
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: in Timeline here. The elder Carter was at work and

732
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,959
Speaker 1: likely wouldn't be home for hours, so the Sun picked

733
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: up his shotgun and walked out the door. It didn't

734
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: take him long to find the boys, who were between

735
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: the ages of fifteen and twelve, at a swimming hole nearby.

736
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,479
Speaker 1: He demanded they come home with him. When they asked why,

737
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: he wouldn't say. Fifteen year old Raymon Cassiano responded, Hell, no,

738
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: we won't go to your house, and you can't make us.

739
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: Carter and Cassiano started swearing at each other. Cassiano pulled

740
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: out a knife and asked if he wanted to fight.

741
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: Carter lifted his shotgun to Ramon's chest. According to testimony

742
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: from that time, Ramon told him not to do it

743
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: and pushed the shotgun aside. Then he took a step

744
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: back and laughed. Annoyed by Ramon's lack of fear, Carter

745
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: asked if he thought he wasn't going to shoot, then

746
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: he did. Cassiano lay dying on the ground with a

747
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: two inch shotgun wound in his chest. So that sounds familiar, right,

748
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: There's there's shades of written House, There's shades of of

749
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: of Zimmerman, you know, like this is again not and

750
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: obviously I'm sure like if we had been around at

751
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: the time and paying attention to the news would say, oh,

752
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: there's shades of like this thing that happened in like

753
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty and this thing right like the most recent incidents. Yeah,

754
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, this is a very familiar incident, right, and

755
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: you can imagine even if this happened today, it would

756
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: be a massive culture wars. Well, he had a knife,

757
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: what was kids supposed he was just defending his family

758
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: and YadA YadA. Um. So it's worth noting talking about

759
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: why Harlan felt comfortable leaving the home carrying a shotgun,

760
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: which there's some like obviously it's not entirely legal to

761
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 1: carry shotguns because people go out and hunt and stuff,

762
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 1: but this is you're not supposed to like walk out

763
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: to try and solve the robbery of your car with

764
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: a twelve gage shotgun, like that's not explicitly legal. Um.

765
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: But there's a long history of vigilante violence by white

766
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: people and so whether or not this actually is legal

767
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 1: is going to come down heavily on the local courts,

768
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: right and so the fact because this is happening in Laredo.

769
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: If this had happened in like Dallas, you out the

770
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: city of Hate, perhaps it would never have been even

771
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: an issue. But because it's happening in Laredo, this is

772
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: going to be a problem for Harlan called Dallas the

773
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: city of hate, that's literally its nickname. What yeah, that's

774
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: the nickname of Dallas, Texas is the city we killed JFK.

775
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: I mean, good point bullish. It the city of brotherly hate.

776
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: That's um, I mean not anymore, but like that is

777
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: that is the nickname of Dallas, Texas. Like, um, yeah,

778
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: so because this happens in Laredo, the law is not

779
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: as on his side um as you might expect if

780
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 1: it had happened in some other parts of Texas. Harlan

781
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: Carter is arrested, he has tried, and he is convicted

782
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 1: of murder. Um. He's sentenced to three years in prison. Again,

783
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 1: you can say, like he should have been sentenced to more.

784
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: I I'm mixed because he was a child, right, Like

785
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: this is bad, but also like I think you have

786
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: to if you believe children are culpable in the way

787
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: that adult. But anyway, this is academic because he only

788
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: serves two years um. His family appeals the judgment um,

789
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: and they complain for about a number of things. They

790
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: say the judge is related to the prosecutor, uh, that

791
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: that self defense had not been adequately explained to the jury,

792
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: that one of the witnesses was like a criminal himself

793
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: and wasn't trustworthy, A bunch of racist ship. Yeah yeah,

794
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: they're like, well, the judge failed to consider that the

795
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: victim was no angel like that. That's based Yeah, although

796
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: they focused more on like the the kid who watched

797
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: his friend to get his brother or whatever get murdered,

798
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: was no angels. There was also no angel. Um. So

799
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 1: if it's legally allowed to kill no, that's right. That's

800
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: from the Bible. That's right. That's why anytime I see

801
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of floating eyes, I just start shooting. That

802
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: was a biblical angel joke. Sure was so. Eventually, a

803
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 1: judge with the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals UM agrees

804
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: that like the case was bad and he overturns Harlan

805
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: Carter's conviction on these grounds and because quotes several of

806
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: the material witnesses for the state have been discredited having

807
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: been convicted of infamous crimes UM, it does not seem

808
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 1: accurate that they were convicted of infamous crimes UM. But

809
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's also worth noting that like Harlan's dad

810
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: helped run law enforcement in Laredo. UM, it's impossible that

811
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: some of the people who had witnessed the shooting were

812
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: like targeted by the police to provide plausible deniability for

813
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 1: his kid um and if not likely, so Harlan gets

814
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: let out of prison, his conviction is overturned, and he

815
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: proceeds with life now as a young adult as a freeman. Uh.

816
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: He enrolls in the University of Texas, but he changes

817
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: his name. So his original name had been Harlan h

818
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: A r l A N, and he swaps out the

819
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: A for an O UM. And he does this basically

820
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: under the understanding that like, well, this will make it

821
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: hard if people go looking for Harlan Carter this criminal

822
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: record they find anything. Wait, so he changed it to

823
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: hor Land or har l O N as supposed to

824
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: h R L A N. Right, and again it's it's

825
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: a marker of like how different the time is that,

826
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: Like this works perfectly for him for decades. Like people are,

827
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 1: well they swapped an A with an oh with another

828
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: we can do Yeah. I was like, well the search

829
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: engine doesn't do other letters. So so easy to get

830
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: away with crimes back in the thirties, My god, was

831
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: it easy speaking you keep getting away with crimes if

832
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: you walked fast, Like, if you could walk pretty fast,

833
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: you could get away with a crime. Oh man, those

834
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: are the days. Those we're the days. Let's bring him back.

835
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: Who else gets away with crimes? The corporation when they

836
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: hired those mercenaries to gun down union organizers in Latin

837
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: America was mob and you took it. I'm very proud

838
00:44:53,320 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: of you. Yeah, drink Ah, we're back and I'm just

839
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: gonna have a nice refreshing sip of Oh it's a

840
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: classic drink. You know. That's like locking a bunch of

841
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 1: nuns and you organizers in a church and lighting it

842
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: on fire. God, that's good stuff. Love it. So again,

843
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: it's one of those things. If this had kind of

844
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: been the end of Harlan Carter's story, I'd say, like, well,

845
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: that was a fucked up thing that happened. But I

846
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: guess I don't believe a sixteen year old should be

847
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: locked in prison for their whole life. Um So, but

848
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: that's not the end of the story. It sucks that,

849
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: Like there are yeah, like cases where I'm like, it

850
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: would be sick if he It's like with Kyle Rittenhouse.

851
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: I don't think the right thing was to throw him

852
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: in a hole for forever. Certainly the right thing is

853
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: not to turn him into a celebrity, and given billions

854
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 1: of dollars, that's maybe even worse. But like I I

855
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: think fundamentally you have to believe that, like, well, if

856
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: a child does something, even if it's heinous, you have

857
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: to be extra focused on the possibility of rehabilitation because

858
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: otherwise you don't actually believe that children are less responsible

859
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: than adults. And anytime you like try to set up,

860
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: any time you you know, try to be more punitive. Uh,

861
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: it always affects you know, uh, brown people and people

862
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: of color way more. And obviously, yeah, like Raymond Casiano

863
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: suffers even more for you know, whatever, however questionable you

864
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: want to think his call to pull a knife might

865
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: have been, although again you could argue justified because the

866
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: other kid had a fucking gun. Anyway, it's like it's

867
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: it's one of the problems with guns in America is

868
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: how often angry teenage boys get ahold of them. And

869
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: this is again quite an old story. But regardless of

870
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: like what you think of should be done when kids

871
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: commit murder, Harland definitely committed murder. That's not self defense. Uh,

872
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: And anyone who says otherwise is probably racist. Um. But

873
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 1: it's worth noting that even modern sources, and this is

874
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: something this is where things get really income, even modern

875
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: sources that are like very pro gun control very anti

876
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: Harlan Carter, who will attack Harlan for his later work

877
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: with the n r A tend to tell the story

878
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: of what happened with him in in Raymond Casiano in

879
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: ways that sometimes subtly reinforced Harland's claims of self defense.

880
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: This is a very strange thing I've noticed in a

881
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,919
Speaker 1: couple of sources. I've read a lot of articles about

882
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: this guy and his his actions can be framed in

883
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: fascinating ways. I want to highlight, particularly a passage from

884
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: the book Gunfight by Adam Winkler. And Gunfight, there's actually

885
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: like five books titled Gunfight. UM. I think one of

886
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: them is like seemed to be slightly griffy. It's like

887
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: a former gun industry lobbyists who like does an anti

888
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: gun book because I think maybe that's where the money was.

889
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not gonna go in today because

890
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: I haven't read it. I haven't I haven't read it.

891
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: But like, there's a bunch of books with this title.

892
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: The good one, the one that you would actually be

893
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: worth reading, is Winkler's Gunfight. He's a he's a U. C.

894
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: L A professor UM and Gunfight is a critical history

895
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: of the battle over the Second Amendment in US politics.

896
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: That has a lot of really useful context, including some

897
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 1: of what I went over about, like the early racism

898
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: and gun control. It's it's a good and again very

899
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: much anti n r A. But here's how Winkler describes

900
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: what happened between Harlan Carter and Raymond Casciano, which I

901
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: find very peculiar. Quote. Carter loved guns from childhood. He

902
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: was an excellent shot and would go on to win

903
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 1: two national shooting titles and set forty four national shooting

904
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: records during his lifetimes. His most infamous shot, however, came

905
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 1: at the age of seventeen, when in defense of his mother,

906
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: he unloaded a shotgun into the chest of a knife

907
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: wielding Mexican teenager. That's a weird way to describe that.

908
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 1: That's not what happened at all. That's such a weird

909
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: way for and again Winkler is like he's a professor

910
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: of law at u c l A, Like he's all

911
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: over the New York Times writing about this kind of stuff.

912
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: It's like really weird that he describes it that way.

913
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: Maybe it was just like, oh, man, I've done all

914
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: this other research I'm just not gonna I'm just gonna

915
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: go with the autobiography that he wrote this it's just

916
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: like it's like calling Ramon Casiano a knife wielding Mexican teenagers,

917
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: like an unsettling way to choose to strange. It was

918
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: just like people forget that Casciano was guilty because he

919
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: had had a knife. You're bringing a knife to a gunfight.

920
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: It is Yeah, it's again, the book is not at

921
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: all right wing or reactionary. There's a lot of good

922
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: stuff in there. The fact that he describes Cassiano's murder

923
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 1: in this way that makes me question some stuff that

924
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: like maybe I missed in vetting this thing because it's

925
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: it's a really weird passage. Now, let's compare that to

926
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 1: this right up by a right wing dude, Dave Coppell,

927
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: from an article he wrote explicitly defending Harlan Carter's legacy. Now,

928
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 1: in this article, he's critiquing a fundraising letter from a

929
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: gun control organization that acts accurately noted quote. Fifty years ago,

930
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: Carter shot and killed a fifteen year old boy and

931
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: was convicted of murder. Arguing against this, cople writes the

932
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: or admitted the fact that Carter was defending his mother's

933
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,439
Speaker 1: ranch against a gang of intruders led by the boy,

934
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: and that the boy was menacing Carter with a knife. Um. Again,

935
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: this is also not true. He was not defending his

936
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: mother's ranch. They were swimming, swimming and having a good

937
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 1: time and being accused of doing her crime. That they

938
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: I mean, did they do the crime even I don't

939
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: think there's ever been any evidence that they did it.

940
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: Kind Of again, this is a little murky, but it

941
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: kind of seems like what happened is their car was stolen.

942
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks later, she sees some Mexican kids

943
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: walk past their house towards the swimming hole and six

944
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: her son on them. Right, that kind of seems like

945
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,720
Speaker 1: what happened. And it's it's weird because Winkler and Copel

946
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: could not be more apart ideologically. Um, but their description

947
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: of this murder is very similar in way, Like I

948
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: just it's I don't want to harp too much on this,

949
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: but it's like really weird to me that that happened. Yeah,

950
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: do you have any like inkling as that may be

951
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: or they're just the most people don't dwell too much

952
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 1: on it. Took me a while actually to find good

953
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: specific details about what happened that day. Um, And I

954
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: think most people take the attitude that just like, uh,

955
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 1: well he said he was defending his mom and like

956
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: that that's the I don't know. I I think in part,

957
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: you know, Winklers covering a lot of ground, right, because

958
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: his book is a whole is not it's not focused

959
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: on Carter. It's a whole history of like kind of

960
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: the how the Second Amendment has been interpreted and ruled

961
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: on and whatnot over a couple of centuries. So he

962
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: does have a lot of ground to cover. It's just

963
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: very and I guess that one of the things he

964
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: did was just kind of brush over what happened there.

965
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: It's like the way I would do it, right, because

966
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: it's perfectly reasonable if you're covering a broad history to

967
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 1: not go into detail. But I would have just said

968
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: something like, uh, he confronted you know, another teenager over

969
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: like you know, something his mother said, and like or

970
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: you could he just confronted another teenager and shot him

971
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: under suspicious even that would be better, right, And also

972
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: this is you know, you do a podcast, this guy's yeah,

973
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 1: it's just it's again I don't want to like shoot

974
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: on him too much because it's like, there's a lot

975
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: of good stuff in the book. It's it's just that part.

976
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 1: I don't get it. I don't get why you would

977
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: write about it that anyway. Um. So, Harlon Carter commits murder,

978
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: does two years in prison, goes to college, um, and

979
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 1: then he decides to follow in his father's footsteps and

980
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 1: join the Border Patrol. He becomes an agent in nineteen

981
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 1: thirty six, three years after leaving prison. Carter's rise was rapid,

982
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: if not meteorc So he joins in thirty six, having

983
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: been in prison two years earlier. In nineteen fifty, he's

984
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: running the entire Border Patrol. Now again, border patrols a

985
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 1: lot smaller back then, it's a lot newer. It's easier

986
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: to become a head of the Border Patrol. And also

987
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: his murder was definitely something on his resume, you know

988
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, I probably unlike the secret. I

989
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: don't think he put it on his paper resume. But

990
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: because he's known in Laredo is like, I'm sure the

991
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: guy's giving him his first gigs. All know about it

992
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 1: and think it's bad, right, Yeah, Um, but he also

993
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: he does keep it a secret publicly, right, Like he

994
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: doesn't rag about it in public. Again, when he's hanging

995
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: out with his buddies, I'm certain it comes up fucking constantly. Um,

996
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: but it's not like a part of his public persona

997
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: as a uh you know, once you're the head of

998
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: the Border Patrol. That is like a political position, you know. Um,

999
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: it's not like today in which that would be something

1000
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: he would be celebrated for and talk about on you know. Yeah,

1001
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: he would get like the shotgun that he used to

1002
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 1: kill Raymond Casiano of an auctioned off for tens of

1003
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars and he used it to buy an

1004
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: F three fifty with give him his own column whole Yeah, yeah,

1005
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: he'd be making documentaries with Matt Walsh. Um, times were

1006
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: a lot more chill back then. It is it is

1007
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: when we talk, we're talking about the story of this

1008
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: guy who does like a racist murder as a teenage boy,

1009
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: and like, wow, he really was less proud of it

1010
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: than he would be today. Yeah, that's where we're at,

1011
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: where we're like, oh wow, he didn't make that like

1012
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: his whole brand weird wild. Um, So the Border Patrol

1013
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: had shifted at this point from being geared mainly towards

1014
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 1: policing the border to being a force for policing Mexican

1015
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: Americans inside the United States on the pretext of them

1016
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: being potentially undocumented migrants. As a result, their work strayed

1017
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: further and further from the border and increasingly into American cities, factories, farms,

1018
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 1: and anywhere expected of harboring illegals. Some Border Patrol agents

1019
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: had difficulty with this, right, This was not a lot

1020
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: of the folks who had signed up earlier. This was

1021
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: not like the thing that they had signed up for. Specifically.

1022
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: Um Harlan, though, is hugely supportive of this change, and

1023
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 1: in fact, he wanted to expand the Border Patrol's purview

1024
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 1: even further and use it to eliminate Mexicans from the

1025
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: country entirely. This was justified in his mind by the

1026
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 1: fact that a large number of undocumented migrants were living

1027
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,240
Speaker 1: and working, or this was justified publicly. Right. So, Harland,

1028
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: there's like a racial motivation, but you can't use that

1029
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: like as we talked about earlier, right, like you have

1030
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 1: to hide when your laws are racially motivated. So the

1031
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: justification is that a large number of undocumented migrants are

1032
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: living and working on ranches and other businesses in the borderlands,

1033
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: often under nightmarish slave like conditions. Now, this is a

1034
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: real problem that's happened, right, like the absolutely as it

1035
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: is today, right. Um, And yeah, there's this like suggestion

1036
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: of a new thing called the Burcero program that will

1037
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: provide kind of like a legal way for these people

1038
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: to like work, but they'll have you know, there will

1039
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: be more control over the conditions that they can work in. Um,

1040
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: which obviously the people who would be hiring them don't like. Um,

1041
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: it's it's a whole thing. Uh. Just so, which way

1042
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: for from the perspective of Harland Carter, though, this is

1043
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,760
Speaker 1: primarily a humanitarian pretext for carrying out like a purging

1044
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: of Mexican Americans and from like the border lands. And

1045
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from Migra again. Carter had convened a

1046
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: meeting to request the assistance of the US military and

1047
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: the National Guard to purge the nation of undocumented Mexican

1048
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: nationals and seal the US Mexico border. The Border Patrol's

1049
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: proposal was titled Operation Cloudburst and consisted of three basic steps. First,

1050
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: an anti infiltration operation on or near the border would

1051
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: seal the border with the assistance of two thousand, one

1052
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty military troops. In addition to stationing troops

1053
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: along the borderline, the Border Patrol plan to build fences

1054
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: along the areas of heaviest illegal traffic to metal picket

1055
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: barbed wire fences eight feet high and eight feet apart,

1056
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: with rolls of concertina wire in between, and one roll

1057
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: of concertina wire on top of the fence nearest Mexico

1058
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 1: built several miles along the border would form the fence,

1059
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: but previous experience that taught the Border Patrol that fenced

1060
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: areas still needed additional security. Therefore, the concertina fence would

1061
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: be reinforced by officers and jeeps who will be directed

1062
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 1: to the scene of any attempted fence or canal crossing

1063
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: by observers in radio whipped towers. So this is the

1064
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: first modern this is the wall, right, This is the

1065
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: start of it. This is the beginning of that. Not

1066
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: that there hadn't been like fences and stuff in different

1067
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: areas before then. This is the first time someone's like,

1068
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: we need to build a wall and has like a

1069
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: concerted vision of that and specifically a vision of using

1070
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: the of the wall as a system of violence in

1071
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: order to keep the border lands white. Right, That's that's

1072
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: what he's doing here. And he he convinced that ship.

1073
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: You know, he's like the Thomas Edison of making racist borders.

1074
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, he's the He's the Elon Musk of

1075
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: border racism. Um. Yes, so, uh to continue that quote,

1076
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:53,439
Speaker 1: I want, I want, yeah, good, good, good work. Yeah,

1077
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: So I'm going to continue that quote. Second, a containment

1078
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: operation would maintain roadblocks on all major roads leading from

1079
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: the south West to the interior of the United States.

1080
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: These roadblocks would be used to inspect traffic, including railroad traffic,

1081
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: for the purpose of detecting illegal entrants, and to maintain

1082
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: safety patrols around the checkpoints. The roadblocks were planned for

1083
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: strategic locations that would prevent aliens from fleeing to the

1084
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: interior of the nation when the mopping up operations, the

1085
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: third phase began. The mopping up operations would be conducted

1086
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: in northern areas such as San Francisco, where the task

1087
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: forces would raid designated locations such as migrant camps or

1088
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: places of business. So San Francisco, I don't know if

1089
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 1: you've ever been Matt, not super close to the border,

1090
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: like well, I guess close to like a sea border

1091
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: right now, but yeah, exactly. I mean those are the

1092
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: other aliens that they also want to put a fence around.

1093
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: Watch out for all those turtles and fucking you know,

1094
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: don't worry, we'll get rid of those in a couple

1095
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 1: of decades. Exactly. Just put a few more of those

1096
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: soda you know, fucking soda rings in the water. But yeah, no,

1097
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: not close to the board. I lived in San Francisco,

1098
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you it was are to get pretty

1099
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: far north exactly. Um. So the primary downside to his plan, right,

1100
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: this is a pretty good idea if you're a white supremacist, right, uh,

1101
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: solid plan. The only problem with it is that it

1102
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 1: is wildly unconstitutional. So there's this thing, right, uh, this law,

1103
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 1: um that that kind of gets in the way of this.

1104
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: So right at this point in time, nowadays, the border patrol,

1105
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: like you see those guys fucking walking around and they

1106
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: look like soldiers, right, They've got their plate carriers and

1107
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,919
Speaker 1: they're they're a R fifteens and all their fucking cool

1108
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: tactical gear. Uh. At this point, the border patrol is

1109
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,919
Speaker 1: like slightly better armed than a modern boy scout troop,

1110
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, Like they're not they're not. They're not packing

1111
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: that much heat compared to what they're going to be packing.

1112
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: And they have a lot of merit badges. They have

1113
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: a lot of merit badges in racism, but there's not

1114
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 1: a ton of them, right, So they're not. They can't

1115
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: do this without the U. S. Military, And in fact,

1116
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: the military is going to wind up being a significant

1117
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: poor should of the effort if they try to do this.

1118
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:06,919
Speaker 1: But here's the problem. There's this stupid fucking bullshits eighty

1119
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: eight law called posse coomatatis right, and that means you

1120
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: can't use the military to enforce domestic laws without Congress's approval.

1121
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know, we all hate possecomatatis um. I

1122
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: for one, think the military should enforce all of the laws,

1123
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: particularly jay walking, exactly, they're the best at it. You

1124
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: don't want to, You don't want a bunch of you know,

1125
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: boy scout border patrols getting a merit badge for walking

1126
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: Mexican old lady across the board should have zones making

1127
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: sure watching for people to cross the street illegally and

1128
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: we should have MLRS rocket systems barred the area if

1129
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,959
Speaker 1: they crossed the street, not at a crosswalk. Exactly, dude,

1130
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: we want more robocops them absolutely, yeah. Yeah, reinstate the

1131
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 1: draft and use it to stop jaywalking and littering. Yeah.

1132
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: Someone absolutely, someone like cuts you off, someone's speeding agent

1133
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: orange immediately. Absolutely absolutely. So this this fucking law posse

1134
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 1: comitatus really really grinds Harlan's gears. Um. So obviously I

1135
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: should also note here that like the fact that it's

1136
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: the military is not supposed to be used to enforce

1137
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: the law doesn't mean it isn't right. If you casually

1138
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: googled the Watts riots, you know, the government has a

1139
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: way of finding out figure making it being able to

1140
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: use soldiers to do cop shit when it needs to. Um.

1141
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 1: But in this case, the government wasn't willing to like

1142
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: push things that far right. Uh. And the general who's like,

1143
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 1: job it is to like basically the general who's liaising

1144
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: with Carter is this guy named Swing who really wants

1145
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: to do this, like he's a racist too. Um. But

1146
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: he's like, hey, we can't make this work legally right now,

1147
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: but we could do it if the president issued a proclamation. Um,

1148
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 1: like it's not impossible to do, but like it's you'd

1149
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: have to get Eisenhower on board. So Harlan Carter gets

1150
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: in touch with Eisenhower's people and he tries desperately to

1151
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: get approval. But Eisenhower isn't quite willing to deploy troops. Now.

1152
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: He again not to give Ike any credit. He agrees

1153
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: with Harlan's basic goals. He just this, like using the

1154
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: army in this way is a little too far for him.

1155
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: But again he's not against this. So in May of

1156
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, Eisenhower appoints General Joseph Swing to be

1157
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: Commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Right, I N S.

1158
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: We don't have I N S anymore now we've got whatever.

1159
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: But like these guys are in so he's basically now

1160
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: he's Carter's boss. Essentially. This like General and Swing had

1161
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: a long history of commanding troops in battle from Mexico

1162
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 1: to Korea. Um, obviously you can see the fact that

1163
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: now a general is in charge of Ian s as

1164
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 1: like the start of the militarization of the border patrol

1165
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: and Swings a bastard in his own own right. But

1166
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 1: this is really happening in part because of like what

1167
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: Carter is pushing to turn the Border Patrol into. Right,

1168
01:02:57,920 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: this is this is not just the start of the

1169
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: laturization of the Border Patrol. The Border Patrol is going

1170
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 1: to become the first large police agency to militarize. Right.

1171
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: This happens decades before. You know, we talked about the

1172
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: Watts riots, which happened like a decade or so from now,

1173
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: um and then the l A riots, which were a

1174
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: big you know, decades later, which we're a big pusher.

1175
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 1: This happens way before all of that. This is nineteen

1176
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: fifty four. So this is like, in a lot of ways,

1177
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: the beginning of police militarization happens because Harlan Carter and

1178
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: General Joseph Swing want to cleanse the border lands of

1179
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: of of Mexican Americans um quote. As promised. One month

1180
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 1: after joining i N, Swing announced that he would lead

1181
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: the U. S Border Patrol in an intensive, innovative and

1182
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 1: paramilitary law enforcement campaign designed to end the problem of

1183
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 1: illegal Mexican immigration along the US Mexico border. No one

1184
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: questioned how in four short weeks he had prepared the

1185
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: officers of the Border Patrol for such a massive campaign.

1186
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 1: I mean at this point to what was even the

1187
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 1: the like, what were the migration numbers, Like, was it

1188
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 1: even that? I mean, certainly it's not as much as

1189
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: it was now. But I'm thinking about like what nineteen fifties,

1190
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties Mexico was, what they had, you know, the

1191
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 1: civil wars not that long ended. Yeah, the p r

1192
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,479
Speaker 1: eyes and power. It's isn't it fairly stable? At this point?

1193
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: I feel like yeah, So it's like it's like what

1194
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: they were doing this pretense of like, oh, we gotta

1195
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 1: stop the illegals. I mean, we're not even talking about

1196
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 1: like you know, uh, we're not talking about modern uh

1197
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 1: Latin American immigration that we have today, which is used

1198
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: as a pretext for all sorts of racist laws against

1199
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: um Latin Americans. Here. Legally, we're talking about like, yeah,

1200
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: labor stuff that's taught, and again they have to like

1201
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 1: do moral panic and stuff about the treatment of migrants.

1202
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: But like, this is all very messy because like some

1203
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: of the biggest people using the government doing this crackdown

1204
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: are these different ranchers and other employers who are like

1205
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: to exploit. It's not there's a lot that's that's going

1206
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: on overall in this issue. But when it comes to

1207
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: Harlan Carter, it's pretty simple, right. He's he's a racist.

1208
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 1: You know, he's trying to do a racial purge under

1209
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: the pretext of like, oh man, you know they're not

1210
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: paying fair wages, and it's you know, he's he's also

1211
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: like starting the process of of justifying, figuring out ways

1212
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: to justify uh this and that are like palatable to

1213
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: large chunks of Americans. Um. And yeah, that's uh, that's

1214
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 1: what's happening in this period of time. Um. And you

1215
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: know what else is happening right now? What I'm gonna

1216
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 1: ask you for your plug doubles hell yeah, um, so

1217
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: my plug doubles are. I just finished, um, the entire

1218
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 1: series The Sopranos. Pot Yourself a Gun is a podcast

1219
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: that I do with Vince Mancini, and we just did

1220
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 1: our very last episode. We watched all of it. We

1221
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 1: watched all the Sopranos. Uh, and you can listen to

1222
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,960
Speaker 1: the series finale wherever you get your podcast. I check

1223
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: that out and also follow me on Instagram because uh,

1224
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like that's where all the like

1225
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: cool kids hang out. So yeah, you know, hit me up,

1226
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 1: hit me up there, and also be be excited because

1227
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 1: me and Vince our next show, we're gonna be talking

1228
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: about the Wire. That's right, twenty years after the wires

1229
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 1: come out, finally two white men will break down the

1230
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 1: wire because someone's got to do it. I mean, that

1231
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 1: is the right group to break down the wire. Season two,

1232
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: for sure, for sure, very excited. You got to make

1233
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,240
Speaker 1: sure at least one of you's a pole. Oh yeah,

1234
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna get some. We got some poles that were

1235
01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: gonna come on. We got a bunch of Greek Baltimore friends.

1236
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: We're gonna come on. It's gonna be great. But yeah,

1237
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 1: look look look for that coming uh probably when you

1238
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 1: pod through the Garden, uh you know, which you know

1239
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: kind of continues our tradition of having a really bad

1240
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 1: title for a TV rewatch podcast. Um. Yeah, so check

1241
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 1: it out whenever that comes out. But for now, listen

1242
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: to pod yourself a gun. You can go back listen

1243
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: to the whole thing your friends character on the Wire was. Um,

1244
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 1: I mean I relate the most to Bubbles because I

1245
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: used to love Heroin. Um. But other than that ship

1246
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: probably Clay Davis. Clay Davis is cool. He's a he's

1247
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 1: the state senator who says yeah, who says ship a

1248
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: lot she she You know, for a show that is

1249
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: like lifted lifted up as one of the greatest TV

1250
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 1: shows of all time, They're sure certainly are a lot

1251
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 1: of catchphrases. It's a weirdly catchphrase heavy show for something

1252
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: that is incredibly serious. You know what the fund did

1253
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 1: I do? You got? You know, you got a proposition?

1254
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 1: Joe is like, I got a proposition for It's like,

1255
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: this is a serious show, but they love catchphrases. Anyways,

1256
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 1: I'm excited me too. Vodka Behind the Bastards is a

1257
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool zone Media,

1258
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

1259
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,639
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1260
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.