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Speaker 1: Jane and Bob Dortik raised three kids and eventually settled

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Speaker 1: outside San Diego. But old issues often resurface when the

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Speaker 1: kids leave the nest.

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Speaker 2: You know, the kids were seemingly gone quickly, almost all

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Speaker 2: at once, and it was just Bob and I. It

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Speaker 2: was just difficult, and we did talk about divorcing. In fact,

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Speaker 2: we actually filed and then decided, after living apart for

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Speaker 2: a short period of time, that we wanted to go

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Speaker 2: to therapy and we wanted to work this out. We

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Speaker 2: were together for thirty years. We truly loved each other

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Speaker 2: and wanted to kind of honor this new phase in

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Speaker 2: our lives.

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Speaker 1: They managed to bounce back and reinvent themselves. Bob even

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Speaker 1: took up running in marathons, occasionally inviting his daughter Claire along.

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Speaker 3: To me, that was like, what incredible modeling for a parent.

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Speaker 3: You know, like this is a hill, like any hill

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Speaker 3: you might face in life, and you can make it

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Speaker 3: to the top.

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Speaker 1: Both Jane and Bob continued to model that can do

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Speaker 1: spirit Through Valentine's Weekend two thousand.

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Speaker 2: We had a stay at home, give each other gifts,

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Speaker 2: make a little cake and a fancy meal Saturday night.

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Speaker 2: The next day Bob went out for a run and

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Speaker 2: never return. And I'm the one that invited the detectives

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Speaker 2: into the house. So we don't need a search warrant.

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Speaker 2: We're welcome in here and look at everything. Help us

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Speaker 2: find these answers.

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Speaker 1: And it appears that a witness came forward with a

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Speaker 1: lead that pointed at two unknown men. But it seems

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Speaker 1: the police went in a different direction.

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Speaker 3: They always look at the family first. Why are we

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Speaker 3: going to work hard? We can find it all right here.

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Speaker 3: There's DNA, there's hair, there's footprints. In fact, we can

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Speaker 3: construct a whole crime scene. And we can tell you

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Speaker 3: in the the courtroom that those curtains were totally full

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Speaker 3: of blood. Guess what, there were no curtains in the bedroom.

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Speaker 2: My name is Jane dorotic I am seventy nine years old.

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Speaker 2: Now I spent twenty years in prison for a crime

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Speaker 2: I didn't commit.

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Speaker 1: From LoVa for good. This is wrongful conviction with Maggie

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Speaker 1: Freeling today. Jane doritic.

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Speaker 2: I was born in Canada. My parents were both Canadian.

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Speaker 2: We moved to California when I was four, Then we

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Speaker 2: moved to England for a couple of years, and then

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Speaker 2: we moved back to California. I have four siblings, all alive,

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Speaker 2: and both my parents are dead.

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Speaker 4: What did your parents do that They wound up in

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Speaker 4: England and then just did so much traveling.

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Speaker 2: My mom was a stay at home mother and wife.

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Speaker 2: My dad was a contractor consultant for some major companies.

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Speaker 2: I can't even tell you what sort of contracting he did,

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Speaker 2: but it was supposed to be a one year term

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Speaker 2: in England and it lasted for three years. And as

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Speaker 2: a young girl, that's where my love of horses began.

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Speaker 2: In England.

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Speaker 5: Why horses, I.

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Speaker 2: Just was very attracted to them and took riding lessons,

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Speaker 2: learned a little bit about jumping and that sort of thing,

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Speaker 2: and it just was something that I dearly loved.

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Speaker 5: Would you call yourself a horse girl?

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Speaker 2: Kind of? I suppose.

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Speaker 1: After returning to California and finishing her schooling, Jane worked

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Speaker 1: as a registered nurse at UCLA Medical Center, which is

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Speaker 1: when she met her husband, Bob.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I was working as an RN at UCLA,

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Speaker 2: he was working as an engineer at Lockheed and I

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Speaker 2: was living on the beach and he happened to rent

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Speaker 2: an apartment right above mine, So that's how we met.

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Speaker 2: He was a very kind, loving person, and he had aspirations.

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Speaker 2: You know, he was very interested in the environment and

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Speaker 2: what's happening and how can we make it better?

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Speaker 5: Were you guys kind of like hippies.

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Speaker 2: A little bit?

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Speaker 5: A little bit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They eventually settled on a horse farm in Tucson, Arizona,

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Speaker 1: where they had three children, two boys, Alex and Nick,

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Speaker 1: and in the middle was Claire.

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Speaker 3: My siblings are Alex and was Nick. Nick is no

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Speaker 3: longer with us. Alex is let's see, eleven months older

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Speaker 3: than I am, and Nick is eight or Nick was

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Speaker 3: nineteen months eighteen months younger. I was blessed with two

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Speaker 3: wonderful parents. They were wonderful role models. My dad was

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Speaker 3: the one who was like, if you want something, go

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Speaker 3: after it, go get it. I'll support you. My mom

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Speaker 3: was always really supportive of my riding and wanted to

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Speaker 3: help me go in whatever direction I wanted to go

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Speaker 3: with the horses.

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Speaker 2: I think it's particularly helpful for little girl girls to

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Speaker 2: get experience around horses. In this society, especially seventy years ago,

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Speaker 2: women were pretty much dismissed, and I think for a

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Speaker 2: young girl to realize you have the power, you have

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Speaker 2: the ability to control such a large animal, and the

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Speaker 2: key to controlling them is not through brute force or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. It's through gaining trust and developing a relationship.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's something that's very important to learn,

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Speaker 2: and Claire totally took to it. I remember at one

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Speaker 2: point I had bought her a pony and I saw

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Speaker 2: Claire come galloping up the driveway bareback on her pony,

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Speaker 2: but she was standing on the pony's back. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: that's what I said, Oh my gosh, I think we

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Speaker 2: should invest in some serious lessons for this little guy.

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Speaker 2: She's obviously talented and has no fears.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 3: People say sometimes they get afraid on horses, and I

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Speaker 3: don't remember ever being afraid of you should have been.

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Speaker 3: And then as I got better, I have many experiences

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Speaker 3: of being at a horse show and somebody would come

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Speaker 3: up to me, and the judge or something'd be like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: you need to go ride with this person. You have

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Speaker 3: some talent. And so then I started writing for other

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Speaker 3: people and it just blossomed into this thing that I

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Speaker 3: was doing. And then my mom and I realized we

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Speaker 3: could take some money buying horses off the racetrack and

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Speaker 3: then selling them as jumpers, and that's actually how I

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Speaker 3: paid for college.

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Speaker 1: While raising and selling horses worked out well. Jane had

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Speaker 1: also gone back to work as a registered nurse in

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Speaker 1: the mental health space, and eventually all of the kids

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Speaker 1: went off to college, which was a major change for

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Speaker 1: her and Bob.

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Speaker 2: We had some difficulties, yes, and I think in retrospect,

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Speaker 2: part of it was being an empty nester, and at

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Speaker 2: some point my mother was not doing well and came

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Speaker 2: to live with us, and Bob was very invested in

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Speaker 2: having that happen, but it didn't work out as well,

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Speaker 2: and that was a bit of a stressor, I think,

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Speaker 2: and also at the time I was travel a lot

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Speaker 2: with my work. It was just difficult, and we did

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Speaker 2: talk about divorcing. In fact, we actually filed and then decided,

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Speaker 2: after living apart for a short period of time, decided

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Speaker 2: that we wanted to go to therapy and we wanted

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Speaker 2: to work this out.

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Speaker 3: I had been living with my mom during a time

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Speaker 3: when they had separated. She had originally moved down to

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Speaker 3: San Diego, and then they got some therapy and we're

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Speaker 3: doing great.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about their relationship because that played a big

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Speaker 1: part in the prosecution trying to convict your mom.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they fought all the time, and yeah, oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: my mom really wanted to kill my dad. I got

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Speaker 3: a bunch of bullshit. I'm a marriage therapist, for God's sake.

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Speaker 3: Everybody fights if they don't fight. Actually, as a therapist,

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Speaker 3: you get a little worried because something's going on here.

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Speaker 2: We saw a good therapist. We decided we really wanted

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Speaker 2: to be together and wanted to kind of honor this

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Speaker 2: new phase in our lives and be more accepting of

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Speaker 2: this is our new phase, and there are many opportunities

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Speaker 2: with it.

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Speaker 5: When he died, what were you in a good place

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Speaker 5: in your relationship?

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Speaker 2: We were in a very good place in our relationship.

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Speaker 2: Number One, we had more discretionary money than we'd ever

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Speaker 2: had in our lives. The kids were on their own,

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Speaker 2: they were doing well. I was still very invested in horses.

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Speaker 2: When we moved down to San Diego. He had started

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Speaker 2: his own business building horse jumps made out of PVC.

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Speaker 2: Horse jumps are always heavy to move around, and most

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Speaker 2: horse people are always moving them around to change the course.

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Speaker 2: PVC they're much lighter. They didn't need repainting, they didn't

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Speaker 2: deteriorate so this was an innovative thing. We were very

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Speaker 2: happy in our life. At that point. Bob was running

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Speaker 2: a lot. He had made a decision that he wanted

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Speaker 2: to run a marathon, so he was preparing for it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Actually, my dad had always talked about running a

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Speaker 3: marathon at some point, and in high school I ranchack

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Speaker 3: and field, and then a couple of years later I

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Speaker 3: got into longer distance running, and my dad and a

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Speaker 3: friend of mine and Alex and his girlfriend at the time,

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Speaker 3: we all ran a half marathon together. And then I

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Speaker 3: picked up a brochure for a marathon in two weeks,

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Speaker 3: and I said to my dad, let's go do this,

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Speaker 3: and like, you're probably supposed to train a little bit

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Speaker 3: more than two weeks for a marathon, but we were

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Speaker 3: like had momentum, so I was like, Okay, we better

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Speaker 3: go do it. And we ran that marathon together, and

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Speaker 3: that was his first and his only marathon, and I

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Speaker 3: remember him being so excited and my mom telling me

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Speaker 3: that after he came home, he must have called like

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Speaker 3: everybody in the universe to tell him that he had

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Speaker 3: just run this parathon. Had he lived longer, I'm sure

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Speaker 3: we would have run more marathons together.

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Speaker 1: Which brings us to the weekend of Bob's death. February

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Speaker 1: twelfth and thirteenth. The couple, now in the early fifties,

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Speaker 1: had enjoyed a nice Valentine's Day meal at the home

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Speaker 1: they rented, about an hour's drive northeast of San Diego

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Speaker 1: in the rural area around Lake Wolfe, California. But the

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Speaker 1: following evening, around seven forty five pm, Jane called the police,

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Speaker 1: saying that Bob had gone for a run. Around one

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Speaker 1: pm that day, well, she attended to the horses in

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Speaker 1: their barn, but when she finished up around four pm,

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Speaker 1: Bob still had not returned.

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Speaker 2: Before I called them, I had jumped in the truck

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Speaker 2: and gone looking because I thought, I know he had

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Speaker 2: a habit sometimes of running down the major hill, turn around,

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Speaker 2: and run right back up. It was a narrow road

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Speaker 2: with a steep fall off on one side, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: people drove crazy. So one of the things that was

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Speaker 2: in my mind is maybe he halfway leaped off the

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Speaker 2: road to avoid a crazy vehicle and fell and sprained

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Speaker 2: his ankle or something like that or worse. So as

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Speaker 2: the night went on and darkness came and he still

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Speaker 2: wasn't back, those feelings that I had just continued to grow,

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Speaker 2: thinking something is really wrong here, and I called the

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Speaker 2: Sheriff's department, got directed to Search and rescue, had them

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Speaker 2: come out.

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Speaker 1: Jane welcomed the team into her home without a warrant,

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Speaker 1: and they took some of Bob's personal items for the

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Speaker 1: search dogs to get his scent.

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Speaker 2: First, they found his jogging suit jacket along the roadside

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Speaker 2: and they brought it to me probably around two o'clock

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Speaker 2: in the morning. From then I just felt heartsick. And

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Speaker 2: then when they came and told me at four forty

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Speaker 2: five in the morning that they'd found his body, there

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Speaker 2: just was this sense of disbelief.

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Speaker 1: Bob's body was found about a half mile into the

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Speaker 1: wooded area off one of his usual training trails, north

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Speaker 1: Lake Wolford Rode. His skull had been fractured in several places,

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Speaker 1: and what was determined to be black paint had been

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Speaker 1: deposited on his skull. He also had been strangled. The

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Speaker 1: rope was still wrapped around his neck. There were also

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Speaker 1: some tire tracks near his body, and while investigators collected

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Speaker 1: evidence at the scene, a witness named Lisa Marie Singh

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Speaker 1: drove up and spoke with officers and news reporters. She

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Speaker 1: was shown a picture of Bob and swore that she

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Speaker 1: saw him in a pickup truck near that spot with

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Speaker 1: two other men the previous afternoon. Meanwhile, investigators sought out

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Speaker 1: leads in the Dora Tick home.

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Speaker 3: Those investigators were in the house for three days and

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Speaker 3: Alex and Nick and I were all like, what, go

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Speaker 3: try to find what happened, Go figure out what like

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Speaker 3: who killed dad? Why are you still in the house,

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Speaker 3: And we were feeling funny about it. And then there

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Speaker 3: was a family, the Crow family, that came to visit

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Speaker 3: us that we didn't even know. We just they contacted

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Speaker 3: my mom and they're like, we got to come meet

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Speaker 3: with They sat us all down in the living room

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Speaker 3: and they said, you guys are in trouble. You get

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Speaker 3: to watch your back. And we're like, what what are

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Speaker 3: you talking about? And they're like, they're probably searching you out, essentially,

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Speaker 3: and the Crow family, their daughter had been murdered. And

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Speaker 3: then those investigators took their then thirteen year old son

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Speaker 3: and interrogated him for thirty six hours until he confessed.

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Speaker 3: And they're like they always look at the family first,

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Speaker 3: watch out. And as I say that to you. Now,

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Speaker 3: if I said that to you after one of your

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Speaker 3: loved ones had been killed, you probably would have been like,

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Speaker 3: you're crazy, They're going to help me. No, they're not

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Speaker 3: going to help you. Are you kidding me? But we

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Speaker 3: were too stupid to note.

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Speaker 1: On February sixteenth, criminalist Caroline Gannett said that she felt

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Speaker 1: a wet spot in the carpet in the master bedroom,

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Speaker 1: as well as seeing a red stain, so they got

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Speaker 1: a search warrant. Then Charles Merritt, an expert in blood

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Speaker 1: stain pattern analysis, a now well known junk science, sprayed

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Speaker 1: the bedroom with fluoresceine, a chemical that reacts under blue

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Speaker 1: light with various substances including bleach, cleaning products, oxidizers, iron, copper, rust, soil, urine,

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Speaker 1: and other biological materials like semen and blood. In the home,

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Speaker 1: stains fluoresced on the ceiling, a lampshade, a nightstand, the headboard,

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Speaker 1: a pillow shamp, the comforter, the underside of the mattress

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Speaker 1: under a wet area on the carpet, on the ceiling

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Speaker 1: of a storage room under the master bed, as well

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Speaker 1: as a wall at the bottom of the stairs, and

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Speaker 1: they swabbed what they could to confirm whether or not

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Speaker 1: the stains were made in blood. They also found a

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Speaker 1: syringe in a waste basket that later tested positive for

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Speaker 1: animal tranquilizer. The syringe also had a stain, along with

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Speaker 1: Jane's fingerprint, all of which Jane tried to explain. Both

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Speaker 1: family dogs had recently been treated by a vet, one

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Speaker 1: for an abscess and the other a torn dew claw,

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Speaker 1: and then Bob had a nosebleed.

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Speaker 2: Initially, they said would I take a light at test

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Speaker 2: when we were still in the house, and I said yes,

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Speaker 2: of course, And when I got in the detective's car,

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Speaker 2: they had someone pat me down, and I remember sitting

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Speaker 2: in the car saying to the detective, do I need

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Speaker 2: an attorney here? And the detective, of course said I

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Speaker 2: can't advise you on that, and I immediately said I

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Speaker 2: need an attorney. After they arrested me, I switched from

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Speaker 2: processing Bob's death to survival mode for myself.

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Speaker 1: Their theory was that Bob had not gone jogging at all,

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Speaker 1: and that as early as Saturday night, Jane had bludgeoned

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Speaker 1: Bob with a fire poker. We supposed to account for

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Speaker 1: the black paint, and then they believed she strangled him,

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Speaker 1: after which she dressed him in his running gear, dragged

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Speaker 1: him out to the Ford F two fifty pick a truck,

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Speaker 1: and drove a half a mile into the woods off

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Speaker 1: North Lake Wolford Road to where his body was discovered.

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Speaker 3: First of all, physically, my mom has a broken hid.

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Speaker 3: She was probably like, I don't know, fifty sixty pounds overweight,

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Speaker 3: not active at all. I don't know what my dad weigh.

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Speaker 3: Let's say he weigh one hundred and seventy pounds. No

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Speaker 3: way she can be able to drag him down a

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Speaker 3: set of stairs and into the back of a truck.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's just not happening. Also, my mom has

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Speaker 3: never demonstrated any anger or any desire whatsoever to hurt

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Speaker 3: humans or animals. It's not in her nature. But Alex

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Speaker 3: nick Dan thought it was in massive denial with my mom.

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Speaker 1: In a case with only circumstantial evidence, the preponderance of

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Speaker 1: items without explanation can appear to paint a picture of guilt,

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Speaker 1: like the tire tracks near the body being consistent with

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Speaker 1: a Ford F two fifty, the syringe in the wastebasket

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00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,520
Speaker 1: with a potential blood stain, and Jane's fingerprint and all

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Speaker 1: of these stains in the bedroom that might have been

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Speaker 1: Bob's blood. However, the state was not able to match

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00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 1: the tire tracks to the specific characteristics of Jane's tires.

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Speaker 1: There were no traces of animal tranquilizer in Bob's body.

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Speaker 1: And then the biological testing wasn't going as the investigators

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Speaker 1: thought it would.

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Speaker 2: They told my sons that the bedroom was a crime scene,

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Speaker 2: that the fire poker was the murder weapon. Even though

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00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,520
Speaker 2: the fire poker they sent out for testing three different

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00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,920
Speaker 2: times to try and find some blood or DNA or

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Speaker 2: something on it, never found it, and they had opportunity

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Speaker 2: to correct that assumption. And then in my trial they

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Speaker 2: said it was a hammer, but they never found a hammer.

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Speaker 1: Additionally, the prosecution had represented to Alex and Nick and

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Speaker 1: later the jury that all of the stains had been

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Speaker 1: tested for DNA and all of it was Bob's blood,

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Speaker 1: but that wasn't true and it wasn't discovered for years. Sadly,

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Speaker 1: their trust in law enforcement broke their faith in their

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Speaker 1: own mother. So Claire was the only one visiting Jane

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Speaker 1: in pre trial detention where they'd discuss the strategy of

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Speaker 1: defense counsel.

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Speaker 2: Claire came regularly to visit and she said, a, Mom,

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Speaker 2: they want you to go along with this plan. They're

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Speaker 2: going to come and tell you about it, and please.

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Speaker 2: They say, if you go along with this plan, you

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Speaker 2: will not be convicted. I remember at the time having

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Speaker 2: a bit of a funny feeling about it, but I

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Speaker 2: was horrified to learn how they had presented the plan

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Speaker 2: to her. In other words, how much do you love

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Speaker 2: your mom?

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Speaker 1: The plan was to point to Claire and their farm

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Speaker 1: hand Lionel Morales, as a team of alternate suspects. Lionel

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Speaker 1: Chevy S ten pickup was already being compared to the

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Speaker 1: tire marks at the dump site, and at a pre

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Speaker 1: trial hearing, both asserted their Fifth Amendment right to silence,

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Speaker 1: which gave the appearance of guilt and potentially just enough

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Speaker 1: reasonable doubt to overcome the circumstantial evidence. However, the judge

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Speaker 1: would not allow them to testify at the actual trial.

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Speaker 1: But the damage to Claire's relationship with Alex and Nick

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Speaker 1: may never be undone.

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Speaker 3: So the private investigator says to me, it's our job

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Speaker 3: to get your mom off, but if we fuck up

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Speaker 3: your family in the process, that's your job to fix.

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Speaker 2: I wish I had stuck with my original plan of

348
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Speaker 2: just dumping him and getting a new attorney, But at

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Speaker 2: that point I had already spent over six figures on

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Speaker 2: him representing me.

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Speaker 5: You had felt though, that he wasn't doing a good job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt like he wasn't investigating enough. There were

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Speaker 2: other leads, and it was disconcerting to me that the

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Speaker 2: investigator would say, who's this person? And I felt like,

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Speaker 2: that's your job to know. I don't even recognize that name.

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Speaker 2: It was a witness who had called in saying he

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Speaker 2: had seen Bob out jogging.

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Speaker 1: It was important that the defense build a new alternate

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00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,920
Speaker 1: suspect theory, as they did with Lisa Marie Singh, since

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00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,719
Speaker 1: their plan with Claire pleading the fifth hadn't panned out. Plus,

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Speaker 1: the state's tire mark expert claimed that Lionel Morales's Chevy

362
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Speaker 1: S ten could not have made all four tire tracks

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Speaker 1: in the woods. Continuing on that, he claimed that the

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Speaker 1: tire marks were consistent with a Ford F two fifties tires,

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Speaker 1: but was not able to go as far as saying

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Speaker 1: that they matched the specific details of Jane's tires and

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00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 1: the circumstantial evidence continued including the couple's marital troubles, their

368
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 1: life insurance policies, that the ropes in their house were

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Speaker 1: consistent with the rope found around Bob's neck, and that

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00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 1: there were multiple stains in their bedroom and home that

371
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,439
Speaker 1: the state claimed were blood, much of which came in

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Speaker 1: through a stipulation agreed to by the defense.

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Speaker 2: A stipulation means you agree to what the prosecution to what.

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Speaker 2: The DA's office is already contending that the bedroom was

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Speaker 2: a crime scene, and I said, just not possible. I

376
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Speaker 2: know you found some blood in the bedroom, but I'm

377
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Speaker 2: the one that told you Bob had a nose bleed

378
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Speaker 2: in there.

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Speaker 1: Additionally, both of her dogs were recently treated by a vet,

380
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: one for an abscess and the other for a torn

381
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: dew claw, all of which can explain the presence of

382
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 1: that syringe and some of the stains that appeared to

383
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 1: be pooled blood lake on the underside of the mattress

384
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 1: or the carpet. The stipulation also stated that Bob's DNA

385
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 1: was found on the carpet, on a wall at the

386
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Speaker 1: bottom of the stairs leading up to the door, in

387
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,120
Speaker 1: a storage area under the bedroom, and on a bottle

388
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Speaker 1: of cleaning fluid, to which I think it needs to

389
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Speaker 1: be said, why wouldn't Bob's DNA be in his own

390
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,440
Speaker 1: home on these things? But I digress. Then the blood

391
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Speaker 1: stain pattern. Analyst Charles Merritt testified about impact spatter, which

392
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Speaker 1: just means that the blood was flung rather than dripped.

393
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,400
Speaker 1: Yet Merritt used these stains to confidently tell the jury

394
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Speaker 1: what he imagined happened, not what he could scientifically prove,

395
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 1: including how many times Bob was struck in the bedroom

396
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Speaker 1: with what they said at trial was an unidentified hammer.

397
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 2: So here's this criminalist saying, there's all of these spots

398
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Speaker 2: of blood in the master bedroom. You know, I don't

399
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: blame the jury originally for convicting me, because they were

400
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 2: told by the prosecution that everything was absolutely tested and

401
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 2: it all came back to be Bob's blood and Bob's DNA. Well,

402
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 2: that was entirely false. Less than half of it was

403
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 2: actually even tested. And what wasn't you know, was it

404
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: turned out to not be blood at all. It was

405
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 2: coffee stains or something like that, and most of it

406
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 2: wasn't even visible to the naked eye.

407
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 1: Yet it would stand to reason that a hammer attack

408
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 1: might leave a bit more of a mess. Then there

409
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: was this syringe that contained traces of an animal tranquilizer.

410
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 5: The prosecutor had.

411
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: To admit that Bob didn't have any in his system,

412
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 1: but they still introduced it to the court, maintaining that

413
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: Jane's fingerprint had been pressed in blood on the syringe,

414
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: which sounds incredibly damning, but it was discovered much later

415
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 1: that this claim was not supported by the lab report. Nonetheless,

416
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,239
Speaker 1: that's what the jury heard, along with how all of

417
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 1: the stains they'd swabbed were made in Bob's blood, So

418
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: they reached a predictable conclusion, sending Jane away for twenty

419
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 1: five to life.

420
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Speaker 2: It was horrifying. It was Claire was sitting in the

421
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 2: courtroom and crying hysterically, and I was thinking what can

422
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 2: I do to help her, what's the next phase, what's

423
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 2: an appeal? All about? How long will it take? And

424
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 2: then scared to death knowing that they were going to

425
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 2: ship me off to prison in a matter of a

426
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 2: few days. And the only understanding I had about prison

427
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: was from TV shows. When I first got to prison,

428
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 2: I felt terribly claustrophobic and terribly afraid and trying to

429
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 2: figure out, how am I going to survive this? Being

430
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 2: horrified at the oppression and domination that I saw all

431
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: around me, with the guards being so aggressive toward the women.

432
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 2: Most of the guards in the prison system are male,

433
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: even in a female prison, and they have no qualms

434
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: about walking into the shower room. I've seen guards turn

435
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: around and flat out pepper spray a woman right in

436
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 2: the face because she talked back to them. It was

437
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 2: a horrifying experience.

438
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: You know, my mom wouldn't her to fly, but that

439
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that she's not going to be caught in

440
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 3: the mill of something. I mean, that would be my

441
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 3: biggest fear that my mom would dian prison.

442
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: I did an awful lot of things to try and

443
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 2: keep myself saying, recognizing, you can't live in this oppressive

444
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: environment without it affecting you, so you've got to be active.

445
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: So I would go and walk on like a big,

446
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: big jogging track, and I would pretend to myself that

447
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 2: I was riding one of the horses, and I would

448
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: pretend that we're going along the trail and here's a

449
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: jump in front of us, so now steady yourself, horse,

450
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 2: now up and over the jump. And I probably sometimes

451
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: I'd between something with my legs and people would probably

452
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: look at me and say, what the.

453
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 5: Hell was she do?

454
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: But I actively did those things so that I could

455
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: take myself out of that environment and be somewhere else

456
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 2: for a period of time. And I guess at some

457
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: point I started learning the statistics of the likelihood of

458
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: winning an appeal. We're only four percent. I just started

459
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: working in the law library, figuring I have to be

460
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 2: more of an active participant in this. So I became

461
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: a pretty good jailhouse lawyer, and I got several people

462
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: out of prison, and again became more and more horrified

463
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 2: at some of the cases that I saw. Almost without exception,

464
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: every woman that I've talked to was a victim of

465
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 2: some kind of violence in a relationship with a man

466
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: and had no choice. I know a woman who was

467
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: threatened if she did not do what this man told

468
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: her to do in his commission of a crime, he

469
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 2: was going to kill her. And she knew he had

470
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: a gun, and she knew he had shot other people.

471
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: And what is she going to do? And why was

472
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: that not allowed to be brought out in her trial.

473
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: She's been in prison for thirty five years, and she's

474
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 2: still in prison today. The whole thing about the felony

475
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: murder is horrible. Is an organization then, Felony Murder Elimination

476
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 2: Project that I also work with, and our goal is

477
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: to eliminate that kind of a rule and the whole

478
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: special circumstance that allows women to be overly prosecuted and

479
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: spend their lives in prison and restricts the judge from

480
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: doing anything but giving either the death penalty or death

481
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: by incarceration.

482
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: Finally, Jane had a win for herself in twenty fifteen,

483
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: three years after she filed a motion for DNA testing.

484
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 2: I wrote my own motion for DNA testing and I

485
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 2: want it. I said, I want Bob's fingernails tested, and

486
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: I want the rope that they found around his neck,

487
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: and I don't want to use the San Diego crime

488
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: Lab because I've been under lots of scrutiny for many years.

489
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: And I clearly said, do not test all of the evidence,

490
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: save fifty percent for future testing, because by then I

491
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 2: was a whole lot smarter about how things can go wrong.

492
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: At that was the point where I get this letter

493
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: from Loyola Law School Project for the Innocent saying we

494
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: understand you're seeking help, and I'm thinking to myself, when

495
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 2: did I write them? I was so used to writing

496
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: so many different organizations, and then I get this wonderful

497
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 2: letter from Paula Mitchell.

498
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: Paula Mitchell began hiring experts to review all of the

499
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: case evidence, one of whom discovered that the paint found

500
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: on Bob's skull likely came from a tire iron or

501
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: Priye bar, and it was later revealed that the state

502
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: knew this pre trial but did not disclose it. Mitchell

503
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: also hired a medical examiner who not only play least

504
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: the time of death, most likely on February thirteenth, but

505
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: also said that the wounds were such that, if inflicted

506
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: in the bedroom, would have been nearly impossible to clean up.

507
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: In addition, the States expert Charles Merritt, who testified that

508
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: all of the potential bloodstains were tested and belonged to

509
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: Bob Well, they discovered a lab text notes who had

510
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: been tasked with testing if the fluids were actually blood.

511
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: The lab technician, Connie Milton. Her handwritten notes say something

512
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 2: to the effect of all of the evidence in the

513
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 2: Doratic case were brought for me to analyze and I

514
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: looked at all of it and it was all negative.

515
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: That was in her handwritten notes, and then they were negative.

516
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: There's a line crossed through it and on top of

517
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: it is written positive. And so my attorney said, how

518
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: does that happen? And she said something like sometimes you

519
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: just take a second look at something and it looks different.

520
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: It turned out only a small fraction of the materials

521
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: where ever tested did and many were not blood at all.

522
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 5: Plus, as far back.

523
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: As two thousand and nine, the state had disclosed that

524
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: a lab tech had questioned Charles Merritt's technical skills prior

525
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: to trial, a lack of confidence later confirmed by both

526
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: a state and defense expert. Mitchell's team also discovered evidence

527
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: showing a serious breach of the chain of custody for

528
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: the blood collected from Bob at autopsy.

529
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 2: This criminalist at the autopsy accepts the vials of blood,

530
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: which is not really protocol. You know, the coroner is

531
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: the one who takes the blood. Anyway, he accepts the

532
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: vials of blood and then they're not entered into evidence

533
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: until two weeks later. So where are they in his

534
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: back pocket? And meanwhile, he's the person that is also

535
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: examining the master bedroom, saying there's all of these spots

536
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: of blood and yeah, no, we can't prove that this

537
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: criminalist did anything with it that he shouldn't have done,

538
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: like open the vials and scatter blood in the bedroom.

539
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: But I I have to tell you that goes through

540
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: my mind because there's a chain of custody for evidence

541
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: and he clearly didn't follow it. Why don't you?

542
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: Which brings up the syringe that was alleged to have

543
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: Jane's fingerprint pressed in Bob's blood. Will not only do

544
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: these lab notes and chain of custody revelations call into

545
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: question the origin and identification of that blood, but in addition,

546
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: a crime lab report said that they had not tested

547
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: the area of the fingerprint. Yet the opposite was represented

548
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: to Jane's jury that her fingerprint was made in Bob's

549
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: blood and if you want to trust the state even less.

550
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: A district attorney investigator later claimed that the vile in

551
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: question was full, but upon further inspection, it was reported

552
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: that the vial was less than half full and had

553
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: a little nick in the top where someone might have

554
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: inserted a syringe. Meanwhile, the DNA testing of the rope

555
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: and fingernail scrapings found foreign DNA in two of Bob's scrapings,

556
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: both of which excluded Jane, and then the rope revealed

557
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: two countries, one of whom was Bob, and again Jane

558
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: was excluded. All of this evidence was filed in a

559
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: habeas petition that dragged through April twenty twenty, when Paula

560
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: filed a motion for Jane's release as a seventy five

561
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: year old woman in danger during the onset of the

562
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: COVID pandemic, and on April twenty second, twenty twenty, it

563
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: was granted.

564
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: The judge that had been hearing my case the whole

565
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: time knew all about the false evidence by then, so

566
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: he was very confident that I was going to be exonerated,

567
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: and he was also retiring, so he's the one that

568
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: allowed the release before my case was actually dismissed the

569
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: first time. I've been very grateful to that judge.

570
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, an evidentiary hearing was scheduled for that July to

571
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: hear the claims of false evidence plus even more new evidence,

572
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: including an alternate suspect. In January two thousand, there had

573
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: been a violent roadside attack in the same spot than that,

574
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: a a methamphetamine user named John Pierre, who was known

575
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: for sudden fits of violence, was arrested and convicted for

576
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: that January attack. But before these bombshells could be released

577
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: at the evidentiary hearing, this state filed a motion to

578
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: dismiss based on the DNA findings, well stating their intention

579
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: to retry Jane.

580
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: They knew everything was wrong, and yet they still wanted

581
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: to retry me, mainly because they did not want to

582
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: be wrong. Kurt Mechels was the original second chair prosecutor

583
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one. He came back in in

584
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: twenty twenty through twenty two to try and put a

585
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: new gloss on the false forensics. I mean, there's so

586
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: many things that we found were wrong. One of the

587
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: detectives got on the stand and said, this is in

588
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: the preliminary hearing. She said, the thing that struck me

589
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: most about that bedroom being a crime scene is there

590
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: was blood all over the curtains. And one of the

591
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: trial attorneys, Mike Cavaloussi, went along and he said, I

592
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: know it's hard to remember things, especially twenty years ago,

593
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: but some things just stick out in your mind, like

594
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: blood on the curtains. Yes, yes, that was entrenched in

595
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: my mind. So then he puts a photograph of the

596
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: bedroom up on the screen in the courtroom.

597
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 3: Well, guess what, there were no fucking curtains. There were

598
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 3: no curtains in the bedroom. I'm getting a little worked though.

599
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: So this memory that she has of blood all over

600
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: the curtains that she's testifying to is completely false.

601
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: But even after that debacle, they still pushed ahead with

602
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: a second trial.

603
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: They came in at the final hour, just when the

604
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: jury was about to be seated. They came in the

605
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: day before and said, Okay, we're going to dismiss the case.

606
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: We don't have enough evidence to convict her. So look

607
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: at all of the taxpayer money spent on that, all

608
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: of the prosecutors, all of the things that they did

609
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: to my sons, that they told my sons.

610
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 5: What's your relationship like with them?

611
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: Now? My youngest son died a year ago with an

612
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 2: accidental overdose. Through all of it, the prosecution was trying

613
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 2: to coerce him to come and testify against me in

614
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 2: a second trial, and he was terribly torn and didn't

615
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: want to do it, and got back into drugs and

616
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: overdosed yeah, And if it sounds like I blame them

617
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: for it, I do.

618
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 5: What is life like now?

619
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: You know?

620
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 4: I know you just said your son passed. Your life's

621
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 4: been turned upside down? So what's it been like picking

622
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 4: up the pieces these past five almost six years?

623
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: You know? I still sort of struggle with some of

624
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: the effects of being in prison for twenty years. You

625
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: can't be in an environment like that, where it's so

626
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: much oppression, so much violence, always watching your back. It's

627
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 2: very hard learn to trust, and that stays with me.

628
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'll ever get over that. I

629
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: don't know if I'll ever get over feeling like, how

630
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 2: can we have a system that is so wrong? Most

631
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: people are good people? How can we accept this? And

632
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: that's why I'm so passionate about doing the work that

633
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: I'm doing with the UC Sentencing Project and the California

634
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 2: Coalition of Women Prisoners. And it's very gratifying. I've been

635
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 2: able to get myself to go back into CIW the

636
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: person I spent so many years at WOW and visit

637
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: women that I lived alongside for a period of time

638
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: and continue to try and help them get out.

639
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: We will be linking both of those organizations in the

640
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: episode description for folks to see how they can get

641
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: involved in the work that means so much to Jane Claire.

642
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 5: Is there anything else you want to say?

643
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 3: I think that the whole concept of wrongful convictions is

644
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 3: not given enough attention. I am probably going to get

645
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 3: some emails for this one, but I think the Hire

646
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 3: police Department, prosecution department, and prison system needs an overhaul.

647
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: I think I want to live in a world where

648
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 3: I think the police are here to protect me. That's

649
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 3: the world I want to live in. So I would

650
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: not have had any desire whatsoever to challenge that belief,

651
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 3: but I was forced to see it for what it is.

652
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: It is not that way at all, and I wish

653
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 3: more people would because you know, it's almost like a cult.

654
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 3: You know, they can continue to get away with this

655
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 3: because they have managed to pull the wool over people's eyes,

656
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: and you know, people to to think that they are

657
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: just and they're ethical and all of that, and it's

658
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: total bullshit. They're not at all.

659
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Speaker 2: I want people to understand that the prison system is

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Speaker 2: a system that's really gone awry. It's gravely compromised. It's

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Speaker 2: so full of oppression and hate and dominance. It has

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with public safety, and the harm that

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Speaker 2: we cause by supporting this system is ridiculous. We could

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Speaker 2: do much better as a society. I don't say that

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Speaker 2: everyone in prison is innocent, but there are so many

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Speaker 2: circumstances that send people to prison that are social problems

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Speaker 2: that we're not solving by putting people in cages.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, as well as executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Burtis, and Jeff Clyburn. The music in this production

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Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms

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Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can

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Speaker 1: also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful

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Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for

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Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with the Signal Company Number One.

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Speaker 3: We've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in

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Speaker 3: this show are accurate.

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Speaker 5: The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in

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Speaker 5: this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect

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Speaker 5: those of Lava for Good