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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of four,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On

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Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our

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Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode fifty eight. Today Sarah

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Speaker 1: and I will be talking about our biggest mistakes or

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Speaker 1: mistakes we've made over the years, both professionally and personally,

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Speaker 1: and how we have recovered from those or at least

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Speaker 1: learned from those in many cases. This episode is airing

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Speaker 1: for the first time on September eleven, which we know

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Speaker 1: for many of our American listeners is a day where

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Speaker 1: we are also thinking back over time a lot, particularly

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Speaker 1: to those days that very you know, momentous day seventeen

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Speaker 1: years ago. So our thoughts are definitely going out to

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Speaker 1: anyone for our listeners who were personally affected by that Sarah,

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Speaker 1: Where were you on September eleven, two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: I was a senior in college at Williams, and I

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Speaker 1: was actually I like, I'm sure everyone of our generation

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Speaker 1: can give you, like very vivid imagery of exactly where

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Speaker 1: you were when you found out. But I recall I

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Speaker 1: had been in the lab while it was actually happening,

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Speaker 1: and I was doing like surgeries on rats, believe it

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Speaker 1: or not. And I came out and the street was

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Speaker 1: like weirdly, like I heard this weird buzz, like it

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Speaker 1: was very quiet that everyone was sort of hushly talking

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Speaker 1: to each other, but I didn't like ask any random stranger,

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Speaker 1: like what's going on? And then I got back to

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Speaker 1: my little house where I was living, and everybody was

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Speaker 1: crowded around the TV. So that's when I found out.

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Speaker 1: So it was after actually both plans had already hit

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Speaker 1: because I had been like cloister away in this basement

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Speaker 1: lab while it was happening. Yeah, and I'm sure every

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Speaker 1: one of our generation remembers like exact details. What about you? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I mean I'm one year ahead of you in school,

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Speaker 1: So I had just graduated that June, and so I

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Speaker 1: was working in a year long internship at USA today,

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Speaker 1: which at the time was in Arlington, Virginia, And so

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Speaker 1: it's like subtly late start to work. Newspapers often start

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Speaker 1: a little bit later. So I was on the subway

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Speaker 1: there when somebody got on and said, what had happened?

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Speaker 1: Like a plane had flown into into one of the towers.

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Speaker 1: As well, that's doesn't sound good, you know, get to

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Speaker 1: work and find out multiple hits in New York. And

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Speaker 1: then the thing is, we're at the tut where you

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Speaker 1: know what, it was, like the sixteenth floor or something

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Speaker 1: of this tower in Arlington, Virginia, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: somebody comes through the hall. Yellen, you know, the Pentagon

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Speaker 1: is on fire. So go to the window and look out,

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Speaker 1: and indeed the Pentagon is on fire. And one of

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Speaker 1: the men, whose wife you know, looked right by the pentagon,

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Speaker 1: said she had just heard a huge plane flying over it.

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Speaker 1: She called and told us that. So, yeah, we were

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Speaker 1: putting out a paper with that going on. It was

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Speaker 1: it was quite a day because they I mean, they

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Speaker 1: kept trying to evacuate us, right like. So it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just you know, like we're trying to put the news out.

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Speaker 1: It was that the public safety officials in Northern Virginia had.

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Speaker 1: We had no idea if there wasn't gonna be other

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Speaker 1: planes coming into d C. And so we you know,

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Speaker 1: they kept having us go down and trying to come

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Speaker 1: back up. We try to get the rest of the

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Speaker 1: paper out. But yeah, it was it was something. It was,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure we all do have these these

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Speaker 1: memories of of exactly where we were were then and

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Speaker 1: you know how it affected everything, you know so much.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we saw. We just acknowledged that day before

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Speaker 1: we get into the rest of this episode. So one

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Speaker 1: of the things that we've been both doing the summer

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Speaker 1: is focusing on our reading lives. Sarah, your book club

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Speaker 1: just just read something that was particularly meaty, wasn't it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're actually I'm actually hosting this one. Our book club

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Speaker 1: is really so to refresh everyone. I'm in two book clubs,

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Speaker 1: like a regular book club and a parenting book club.

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Speaker 1: And this is the regular one and the regular one.

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Speaker 1: The parenting one is very intimate. The regular one is

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Speaker 1: quite large, and so you only get a chance to

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Speaker 1: host perhaps once a year, maybe twice a year, no

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Speaker 1: usually really once a year because we only meet like

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Speaker 1: every other month, so that's even generous. I think I've

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Speaker 1: been like a more frequent hoster than average anyway. So

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Speaker 1: I am hosting American Marriage an American managed by Tyrie

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Speaker 1: Tayari Jones, And wow, I am actually not totally through

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Speaker 1: the book. I'm like seventy percent through. But the characters

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Speaker 1: are so multi dimensional and there's so many sort of

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Speaker 1: political themes to it. I think we're going to have

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Speaker 1: a really amazing discussion. So I'm really glad I picked it.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've seen a lot about that book various places.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's my kind of book. The accusation

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Speaker 1: type book is not something I oh, yeah, some people

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Speaker 1: do have problems with that. Yeah, the unjust accusation there is,

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Speaker 1: but that's kind of part of the theme of the book,

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Speaker 1: so I guess yeah. And I think there is a plot,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. I mean, that's yeah, that is that is

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Speaker 1: exactly the plot. But unpacking that and you know how

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Speaker 1: that happens in the aftermath of that after math of

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Speaker 1: that at least you're not well, yeah, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to do any spoilers for anyone who might read it,

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Speaker 1: but but it is. It is if you have a

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Speaker 1: book club. I think it's a great pick for a

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Speaker 1: book that's you know, going to lead. You're not just

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Speaker 1: going to be like, oh I love that character. Oh

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Speaker 1: that was so great, Like you're going to have some

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Speaker 1: really interesting subjects to talk about. So so it's a

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Speaker 1: maybe pick for a book club. Yeah. Actually, is a

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Speaker 1: good discussion going on it, Yes, And I enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: I actually I do enjoy it, you know what. I

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Speaker 1: kind of like books the unjust accusation doesn't bother me

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Speaker 1: as much. And I like books where I'm like not

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Speaker 1: sure which character I side with, Like I really enjoy that,

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Speaker 1: and this is one of those. Well, certainly when you're

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Speaker 1: your loyalty shift over time. That's actually something that's been

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Speaker 1: in this book I've been reading in August, just David

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Speaker 1: Foster Wallace, which is that is a thick book. It

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Speaker 1: is a thick book. I was reading it on my kindle,

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Speaker 1: so it it was thick, but it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: on my phone, and I just finished it. I thought

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Speaker 1: I had finished it a day or two ago. I

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Speaker 1: had been reading the footnote so that anyone who's read it,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's like three hundred four hundred footnotes and

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Speaker 1: some of them have actual whole scenes in them, and

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Speaker 1: so on the Kendle, I had the ability to you know,

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Speaker 1: hit the highlighted footnote and go to that footnote, so

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Speaker 1: that made it quite easy. I didn't have to flip

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Speaker 1: back and forth. I just you know, hit the note.

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Speaker 1: But for whatever reason, like six like long scenes are

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Speaker 1: not hyperlinked, and I never figured it out because I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure I clicked on every hyper linked footnote and

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Speaker 1: somehow then I got to the footnotes and I realized

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Speaker 1: that there were these whole scenes I had never read.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know glitch with that or you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is possible I just missed them, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I don't think I would have

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Speaker 1: missed all of them. So then I you know, was

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Speaker 1: but the funny thing, as you know, I had, I

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Speaker 1: was eighty eight percent in according to my kindle, and

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Speaker 1: in my mind, I was like, well, I know the

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Speaker 1: footnotes will be some of it, but maybe it'll be

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Speaker 1: like two or three percent of it, And that seems

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Speaker 1: about right that he needs another like seven percent eight

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Speaker 1: percent of book to wrap up these loose threads that

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Speaker 1: are still here. And I see we're you know, we're

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Speaker 1: getting toward the end, but he's got to wrap up

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Speaker 1: these things. And then eighty eight percent, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: there's a bio of David Foster Wallach. It was over ended,

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Speaker 1: abruptly ended. And you know, this is not a surprise

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Speaker 1: to anyone who's read it or read any of the

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Speaker 1: commentary on like sitting there, what just happened? And so

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Speaker 1: of course I go and google, like what happened at

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Speaker 1: the end of Infinitees? And of course there's all these

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Speaker 1: pages what happened because everyone else finishes it and goes

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Speaker 1: and googles what happened at the end of infinite Just wait?

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Speaker 1: But is there a real answer of what happened? There

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Speaker 1: is hinted at. So I went back and reread the

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Speaker 1: first chapter, and there are a few things because the

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Speaker 1: first chapter actually happens a year after the last chapter,

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Speaker 1: and so you can see things that are written about

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Speaker 1: there and then you know they were hinted about later.

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Speaker 1: And there's certainly other scenes that once I read some

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Speaker 1: of the commentary, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember that happening,

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Speaker 1: and now I see how that was linked. But some

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Speaker 1: of this is very oblique. I mean, you wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: necessarily known it. I mean, there's a whole want to

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Speaker 1: read it now, there's whole things that are left up

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Speaker 1: in the air like this. You know, this isn't really

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Speaker 1: a spoiler alert because you kind of know this from

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Speaker 1: the beginning with there's this wheelchair assassin gang that's okay,

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Speaker 1: back to separatists and they're coming to this tennis academy

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Speaker 1: and you're like, well, did they actually get there? Like,

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Speaker 1: did they you know, get the person they were trying

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Speaker 1: to get? And you create this assassin gang and then

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Speaker 1: you don't know if they actually get the person they're

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Speaker 1: trying to get. It is one of these things like

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Speaker 1: that is a pretty big loose end not to tie up,

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Speaker 1: but it's not tied up, and you can ponder why

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Speaker 1: David Foster Wallace chose to do that. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of fun to tackle a big book because

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Speaker 1: I mean, a it solves the problem of what do

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Speaker 1: I read next for like an entire month, which is

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of a useful thing and get into it.

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Speaker 1: You get to know the characters. You know, there's there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of problems with the book. I think he

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Speaker 1: gets away with some things because you're like, in your mind,

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Speaker 1: you've had it build up. It's like, oh, he's this genius,

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Speaker 1: this is such a huge, important book, and so you

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Speaker 1: get away with things that, like I think other writers

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Speaker 1: would not get away with, not because they would have

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Speaker 1: written it any worse than he did, but just because

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Speaker 1: of the packaging of it. And I felt the same

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Speaker 1: way about that book Freedom, you know that came out

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. No who is that by?

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, why did I just blank? Totally Freedom? Very

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Speaker 1: famous and no male. Which of course that's something that

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Speaker 1: people have pointed out too, that it's often these male

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Speaker 1: writers who it's like everyone's like, oh, they're a literary genius,

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Speaker 1: and it's Jonathan Franson. Yes, I oh who? I usually like, actually, okay,

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Speaker 1: interesting that is I was going to say, are you

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Speaker 1: alluding to his gender? But there's parts, certainly to light.

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Speaker 1: There's also parts that you're like, what on earth are

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Speaker 1: you doing? But it's like, oh, he must be the

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Speaker 1: genius that I just don't understand, or maybe it's just

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Speaker 1: that it's experimental. Yeah, I feel like other people, you know,

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Speaker 1: writing something like that, people be like, oh, that just

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. But it's like, because you have in your

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Speaker 1: mind that, oh, he's this literary genius. You give him

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Speaker 1: more of a benefit of doubt, even for stuff that

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Speaker 1: actually doesn't work or is just obtuse or whatever. So

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm glad I tackled infinite just and now

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Speaker 1: I have to find my next big book. I guess

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm going to be reading some short books. You

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Speaker 1: could read a little. I read a little, teeny tiny book.

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Speaker 1: So I'm right now I'm like in the opposite stage

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Speaker 1: because I'm not going through books nearly as fast because

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Speaker 1: you know, and that's more young kids, you know, children

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Speaker 1: under two. Time is more limited and Convenience Store Woman

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Speaker 1: was a recommendation on the Modern Missus Darcy podcast, whereas

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Speaker 1: I get like nine exactly my book recommendation, and it

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Speaker 1: took about like three days to read, and like it'd

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Speaker 1: probably take you one day to read. And it's set

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Speaker 1: in Japan, which always makes me happy because I like

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Speaker 1: quirky Japanese things. It's by a woman named Sayaka Murata,

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Speaker 1: and it's weird, but I recommend it, so the total

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Speaker 1: opposite of what you just read. Basically, yes, all right,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'll put that on the list next. H Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll just go ahead and segue and yeah, the body

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Speaker 1: of this episode, since it's just gonna be asked, we

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Speaker 1: don't have a guest for this one. I guess we

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Speaker 1: don't really have to have a dividing line between the

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Speaker 1: intro and the regular stuff. So we're already talking this

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Speaker 1: episode about mistakes we have made, various missteps or your

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Speaker 1: path not taken, as the case may be, and know

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Speaker 1: what we've done with that. So I guess we'll sort

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Speaker 1: of kind of go back and forth. But I looked

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Speaker 1: at this. You know, Sarah's got some slightly meaty ones

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Speaker 1: at the beginning. You know you're you're MD PhD. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about that. Oh yeah, So anyway, if you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there is a very smattering of people that

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Speaker 1: are longtime blog readers of mine, because I did have

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Speaker 1: a blog throughout this sort of turning point in my life.

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Speaker 1: But I entered Duke as an MD pH d student.

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Speaker 1: I had, you know, that research that I mentioned doing

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Speaker 1: during nine to eleven. I was pretty into it at

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Speaker 1: the time. I was looking at like effects of early

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Speaker 1: life stress on memory. I kind of was interested in

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Speaker 1: neuroscience and kind of the interaction between hormones and behavior

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Speaker 1: and the environment, and I thought, you know what, MDPHD

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Speaker 1: seems like a great idea. And number one, it's paid for.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that's not supposed to be that much of

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Speaker 1: an enticement, but my parents were wonderful in that they

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Speaker 1: paid for my entire college education, which was not cheap,

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Speaker 1: but that was definitely where where. So I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: you can go to school and have it completely paid for.

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Speaker 1: Its The mdphd student programs are on a federal grant,

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Speaker 1: and I liked the research, and I had decent scores

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Speaker 1: and pretty good grades, so I felt like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: it's a few extra years doing research. I'll have multiple

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Speaker 1: options when I finished. You know, I might want to

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Speaker 1: be a researcher. I might not, but I, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in it enough to express my interest during

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Speaker 1: these interviews, and I kind of, you know, knew that

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Speaker 1: they would want to hear that I was excited about research,

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Speaker 1: which I genuinely was at the time, and so I

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Speaker 1: did go in that direction. I was fairly successful in interviews,

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Speaker 1: and then when I got into Duke, I was like,

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Speaker 1: all right, we're done, and I headed there and the

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Speaker 1: first year was great. I loved my MDPHD cohort and

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Speaker 1: really had no doubts about what I was doing. Second

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Speaker 1: year at Duke was clinical, So I went into the

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Speaker 1: wards thinking, Okay, this is my award's time, and it's

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Speaker 1: going to be great because I'm going to go back

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Speaker 1: to pH d Land after this, and you know then

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Speaker 1: that was going to be about a four year journey

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Speaker 1: and then head back to medicine. And at Duke the

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Speaker 1: whole thing might have taken me six years. I might

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Speaker 1: have taken probably more likely seven. Actually a lot of

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Speaker 1: people do do five years. No, yeah, seven, So four

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Speaker 1: years of research plus the three years of med school

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Speaker 1: and because Duke has a condensed program anyway, But somewhere

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Speaker 1: during I think at the end of my first research year,

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Speaker 1: I was starting to ask different questions about what I

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Speaker 1: wanted my life to look like. And you know, as

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Speaker 1: a twenty two year old I was single, graduating college

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Speaker 1: or I guess twenty one when I was applying, because

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Speaker 1: it was during that fall of two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: Single really like was sort of being encouraged not to

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Speaker 1: think about, you know, family planning, Like it was very

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Speaker 1: antithetical to the Williams education to even like bring those

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Speaker 1: topics up, so they didn't cross my mind. And it

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Speaker 1: was almost like if someone were to mention that, I

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Speaker 1: would be very indignant about it, like how dare you

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Speaker 1: mention that I will be thirty by the time I

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Speaker 1: or thirty five or thirty six by the time I'm

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Speaker 1: practicing medicine? Right, So I really didn't go there. But

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Speaker 1: med school started two thousand and two, I met my husband,

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Speaker 1: who was then my boyfriend. I the wheels returning as

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Speaker 1: to like, hmm, how old will I be at this time?

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Speaker 1: How old will I be at this time? What do

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Speaker 1: I want? I want a family. And at the same

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Speaker 1: time as I was kind of figuring that out, my

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Speaker 1: for the research itself was kind of dying out. I

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Speaker 1: hated benchwork. I guess I liked it with the idea

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Speaker 1: that like, oh, if you I like work, where you

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Speaker 1: know when you put your work in, you're gonna get

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Speaker 1: something out Like that is why like it's satisfying to

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Speaker 1: me to see patients. It's like, oh, I'm gonna put

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Speaker 1: the work in, I'm gonna see the patients. They're gonna

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Speaker 1: be happy. Like you know, I'm sort of cranking out widgets.

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Speaker 1: They're just more complex widgets. Right, But when you're doing research,

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Speaker 1: you can like crank a widgets all day and then

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Speaker 1: like someone else scoops you and you have literally nothing

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Speaker 1: to show for it or something doesn't work. And I

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Speaker 1: found that super frustrating to my personality type. So it

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Speaker 1: just sort of became evident. Sorry, I'm like going off

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Speaker 1: in a huge tantr, but this was my life's biggest mistake.

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Speaker 1: It became apparent to me that this wasn't the direction

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Speaker 1: I needed to go, and I started frantically figuring out, like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, can I go just go back to

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Speaker 1: med school? And the answer was yes, you can go

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Speaker 1: back to med school. You don't actually have to pay

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Speaker 1: back the government. You do have to pay for your

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Speaker 1: last year of med school, which I still finishing up

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Speaker 1: my loans for that now, although we're close to the end. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I ended up graduating in five years set of four,

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Speaker 1: which actually left me one year out of sync with

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Speaker 1: my husband, which did cause a little bit of complications

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Speaker 1: in terms of matching. We couldn't do what's called couples matching.

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Speaker 1: And but the truth is it all worked out really

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Speaker 1: nicely in the end. We finished the same time. I'm

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Speaker 1: very thankful not to have a research career. I do

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Speaker 1: not particularly enjoy doing research, and so yeah, that was

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Speaker 1: my big mistake. I mean, I don't think it was

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Speaker 1: like I wouldn't call it wasted time in the sense

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Speaker 1: that I'm sure you've learned a lot about the research process,

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Speaker 1: and I mean it was, but I did. I took

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Speaker 1: a good amount of way to it. I would say,

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Speaker 1: like the times that it felt most like the mistake

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Speaker 1: was Well, the funny thing is, in my fellowship, I

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Speaker 1: was sort of forced to do research and I had

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with the PhD. But it just is

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Speaker 1: part of the training to become a pediatric endocrinologist. And

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Speaker 1: I think because of my prior research background, I was

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Speaker 1: heavily encouraged to a bench research and then ended up

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Speaker 1: in a lab again, which I guess that was sort

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Speaker 1: of a second mistake, because I was miserable, like I

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Speaker 1: would count the hours like I hated it, and I

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Speaker 1: would beg to do anything clinical. I'm like, oh, I'll

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Speaker 1: cover the hospital, like I'll take extra call, like I

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Speaker 1: didn't care anything to not be not be in the lab.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, I don't know that wasn't even as

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Speaker 1: much of a choice. That just that was just how

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Speaker 1: it was. I guess that was my second mistake is

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Speaker 1: agreeing to do bench work a second time when I

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Speaker 1: knew it wasn't for me. Yeah. Yeah, although I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at number two of your various Oh, I don't know, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's very easy to doubt yourself. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: should I have gone to med school in the first place?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I enjoy my job now mostly, but I

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Speaker 1: definitely when we have people on our podcasts, it has

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Speaker 1: actually like awakened party. I'm like, oh, I could have

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Speaker 1: done that. I could have done that, and maybe that's

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Speaker 1: maybe that's not fair. I mean, I have a I

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Speaker 1: have a great job. It's really rewarding in many ways.

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Speaker 1: There are certainly frustrations with it that I didn't anticipate

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Speaker 1: when I went into it to begin with. And I also,

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Speaker 1: I'm like really kind of sad about having call. I don't,

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Speaker 1: as I've spoken, I don't want to be woken up

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Speaker 1: to patient phone calls in the middle that night when

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Speaker 1: I'm sixty. I just find it toxic. So I I

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Speaker 1: don't know who knows and who knows what would you

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Speaker 1: what will happen? I'm curious, like what, well, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's so cliche, but my like my one of my

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Speaker 1: I remember Gresham. We've been talking about like what did

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Speaker 1: you love to do when you were little? And I

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Speaker 1: love to write, and I love to write stories, and

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Speaker 1: I love to write like I would have had a

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Speaker 1: typewriter in my room and I would like spend hours

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Speaker 1: doing it. I've you know, kept a blog for about

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Speaker 1: a million years. I don't think I'm a terrible writer.

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Speaker 1: I think I might have gone down that route, maybe

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Speaker 1: more in the fiction side of things. But I think

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Speaker 1: again that part of my personality that's like ooh, if

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Speaker 1: you put a lot of work in and something fails,

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Speaker 1: it really frustrates me. That might not have done well

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Speaker 1: because I know you often have to fail a lot

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Speaker 1: in writing before you succeed. There is that I don't

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Speaker 1: know I could have done that. I think I would

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Speaker 1: have been a great like corporate Josh hates when I

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Speaker 1: say corporate pond, but like, I think I would have

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Speaker 1: been great, like working for Google, like in marketing, like

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Speaker 1: I get stuff done, like I could have done consulting,

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Speaker 1: and I could have done a lot of things. And

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Speaker 1: I didn't really consider any options. After quite a young age.

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Speaker 1: I decided I was going to med school. It's a

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Speaker 1: little bit in my upholder nature to be like, well,

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Speaker 1: this is what I have to do to get there,

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Speaker 1: and like why would I even look around and think

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Speaker 1: about something else, because I got a path that works.

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Speaker 1: Like and that's also a little bit we're getting very

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Speaker 1: grutch and ruveny here, but little satisfice or too like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well this is pretty good. This is a good job.

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Speaker 1: Like I don't think I necessarily question things. And you

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Speaker 1: know what, I will give my parents props because they

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Speaker 1: were always like, are you sure you wanted to go

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Speaker 1: into medicine? You know your uncle he has to work

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Speaker 1: with my uncle's and obig i n and like the

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Speaker 1: only doctor in my family has to work really long

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Speaker 1: hours and they're you know, it's really tiring. And they

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Speaker 1: they were not parents. They were certainly proud when I

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Speaker 1: chose that, but they did not push me into it

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Speaker 1: at all. So I know it must be even harder

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Speaker 1: in families where you know, the parents have very specific

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Speaker 1: ideas of how they would like their children to succeed.

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Speaker 1: They've been telling me since age two that you need

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Speaker 1: to be a doctor. That's a slightly different, slightly different issue,

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Speaker 1: but let's let's that was a lot, and I want

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Speaker 1: to hear them if your mistakes, because that was like

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Speaker 1: probably more than anyone bargained for it, and I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if they were truly mistake. No. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't think going med school is a mistake in

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Speaker 1: the sense that you like practicing medicine, And yeah, you

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Speaker 1: would not have been able to practice medicine without being

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Speaker 1: a doctor, so in that sense. And I am not

427
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 1: miserable my career, Do not get me wrong. They're a

428
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,960
Speaker 1: wonderful thing. And I also just I mean, listening to this,

429
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,919
Speaker 1: I don't think it's impossible that you can take the

430
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,520
Speaker 1: writing back up. I mean I think, I mean, I

431
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 1: know that you have a great blog, You've got a

432
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,159
Speaker 1: great platform in terms of that and the podcast that

433
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 1: if you do want to write something, you can certainly

434
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 1: do so. And you know, maybe as time opens up,

435
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 1: as your kids get a little bit older, you might

436
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 1: start taking some of that extra time to start writing fiction. No,

437
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 1: it's definitely on my mind. Yeah, so your your mistakes

438
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: give me a meaty one to maybe think of something

439
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 1: that can match that. Yeah. Well, so I've written a

440
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 1: number of books, some of which you might have heard of,

441
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,679
Speaker 1: some of which you probably haven't. And there are reasons

442
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: for this. Uh. You know, I started my career co

443
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 1: authoring books and one interesting thing, you know, this can

444
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 1: take a lot of time and then you know, nothing

445
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: can come out, not much can come out of the

446
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 1: book itself if if you don't get a whole lot

447
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,399
Speaker 1: of people reading it. And I actually had two in

448
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: a row with this one was co authored. Uh, there's

449
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: the book. I was matched. My agent matched me with

450
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: the agent I had at the time with a client

451
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 1: who's coming into the agency was a young doctor wanted

452
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: to write a book called The Healthy Guide to Unhealthy Living,

453
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 1: which is a great way. Yeah, it was. It's a

454
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 1: wonderful topic. We got a you know, six figure advance

455
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: on it, you know, multiple publishers building on it. Wrote

456
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 1: this book and then, uh, for a variety of reasons,

457
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 1: which I'm sure you know made great sense for his wife,

458
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 1: he decided to go in a different direction with his

459
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: career and then so he really couldn't promote the book,

460
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 1: which from the publishing side though, people were just like

461
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 1: furious and nothing happened with the book. I mean, this

462
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: is a book that could have I think done very well,

463
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: but didn't because you don't have the author behind it

464
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 1: doing anything, and so the you know, publisher themselves didn't

465
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: do anything with it. Uh so you know, I'd put

466
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: quite a bit of effort into co authoring this with

467
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: him to right, you know. So there's that. And then

468
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 1: my next book was actually a solo book that you know.

469
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: It's called grind Hopping Build a rewarding career without paying

470
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: your dues. And you are right, I have not heard

471
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: of it, and I thought I knew the entire loan

472
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: and I thought I had read all of it. Well,

473
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 1: So this book came out in two thousand and six

474
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 1: and it literally sold like a thousand copies to okay,

475
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: which is not very great. I mean maybe hope, hey,

476
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: we could maybe get a spike in sales. And people

477
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: are listening to this. You want to go buy the

478
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: e book. It's it's available, so you could go buy

479
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 1: the you have to you have to apart back suddenly

480
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 1: like start getting more royalties from it because people have

481
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: gone and bought the e book is about the rise

482
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: of self employment among young people, and the idea is that, uh,

483
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: you know, in the past, the ideas you you worked

484
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 1: for a company for a long time and then eventually,

485
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 1: if you had entrepreneurial aspirations, you'd go out on your own.

486
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: But these days there's really no reason you can't do

487
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: that yourself, like first, you can work for yourself first,

488
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: because the tools to start a business are so much

489
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: more available. And certainly, you know, I was writing this

490
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: in the early two thousands, that was more of a

491
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: you know, profound concept than I think that it is

492
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: now there's this thing called the Internet. But also just

493
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: that the bargain between companies and employees was changing, Like

494
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: we it used to be that you might expect to

495
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: work for someplace for a long time, but now you

496
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: know that a company most employment contracts are at will,

497
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: like it could end at any time, and so this

498
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 1: has reflected Then people feel like, well, why should I

499
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 1: pay my dues, you know, climbing up the corporate ladder

500
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 1: to then be given opportunities. I want to learn things

501
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 1: early on, and by running your own business you can

502
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: do that. You learn all aspects of things, and there

503
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: are ways to be mentored and to learn things even

504
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: if you're not within a company. So that was what

505
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: the book was about. A couple of things went wrong

506
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: with it. First, I say the word grindhopping, you have

507
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: no idea what that means, was hopping out of the

508
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 1: grind right like, But I had to explain that every

509
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: single time. I just well that I don't understand. Uh.

510
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: The other issue is that we went through three sounds

511
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: like it could be about coffee and beer. But yeah,

512
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: we different editors. So it's pretty much it was an

513
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: orphan project by the time it came out, and nobody

514
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 1: cared about it. Also I had and then, I mean

515
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: the mistake part is I had no idea how to

516
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 1: promote a book in my mind, you know, I just

517
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: hadn't learned all this. I hadn't really studied marketing, like

518
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,239
Speaker 1: the ways people do this. You know, you put out

519
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: a book, people buy it, like, don't publishers themselves have

520
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: ways of promoting books, and you know, sometimes they do,

521
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: but often they don't and or they choose not to

522
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 1: because there's other titles and they only have so many

523
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 1: people working in publicity or what you know, whatever it is.

524
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 1: So I had not you know, built up any of that.

525
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: I could write about it for different places, but it

526
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: turns out that you know, writing a column about this

527
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: topic even in a place like USA today doesn't get

528
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: that many people to buy a book. I didn't understand, like,

529
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: you need your own people. You need like your email list,

530
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: you need, you know, your own blog built up, you

531
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: need a podcast for instance, where you can interact with

532
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: people who care about your ideas. And uh so you know,

533
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: it was it was went nowhere, which means that they

534
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: didn't want a follow on book, like they didn't want

535
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: my next book. I wanted to continue writing books, and

536
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: so that particular publisher did not want my next book.

537
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: I got the news that they did not want my

538
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: next proposal, I cranked out, well it was actually yeah, well,

539
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 1: while I was in the past, while I was in

540
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: labor with Jasper, my oldest I like bother, I was

541
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: checking my BlackBerry because I'm bored in between contractions, and

542
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 1: that's when I got my news. I was like, that's

543
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: that's awesome, so you know, and that was one that

544
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: was it was. It was. It was another book that

545
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 1: I never wound up writing, which is, oh my goodness,

546
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: it is what it is. But so it took a

547
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: long time to get a contract for one hundred and

548
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: sixty eight hours because I was an author who had

549
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: not sold books who had written a book but had

550
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: not sold any which the good news is that I

551
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: didn't get like a huge advance for that first book.

552
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: And why it doesn't like I mean, that sounds like

553
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: a bad thing, But what I've seen friends of mine

554
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: have happened to them is if you get a really

555
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: really huge advance for your first book and then you

556
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: don't sell, like you will never get to write another book,

557
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: and because you've just cost the company and nobody else

558
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: will take a risk on you. And so that is

559
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: the problem if you wish to write you people sometimes

560
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: will write under pseudonyms for another book because of that.

561
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: So you know, in my case, that wasn't the issue,

562
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: you know, as small potatoes. So it took it took

563
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: you know, a long time to get the contract with

564
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: another publisher for what became one hundred and sixty eight hours.

565
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: Even that, though I you know, you think I would

566
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: have learned my lesson of like I need to spend

567
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: so much time and effort on marketing the book, like

568
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: as much as I do on writing the book. I

569
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: just don't like if my brain does not work that way,

570
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: which is why I so admire people like you know,

571
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 1: Jessica Turner, who will be an upcoming guest. Yeah, and

572
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: we actually had a request to have her on, like

573
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: we already even to have that in the in the

574
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: docation she worked professionally in marketing, then obviously she has

575
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: this other side of being a book author and content

576
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: you know, influencer or whatever. She but because she knows

577
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: how marketing works, she has an instinct for it. That's

578
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: that's just amazing. Like I think about one hundred and

579
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: sixty eight hours I had you know, on my blog,

580
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: had people like I said I was going to do

581
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: some time makeovers for that book, and so you know,

582
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: people wrote me, Like a fair number of people wrote

583
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: me saying oh, I'd love to be included, and I

584
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: talked to some of them, and I didn't include all

585
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: of them. But like I never wrote those people who

586
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: had emailed me to tell them that this book was out,

587
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: like oh my god, easy sales, busy sales, and yet

588
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 1: I just didn't think to do it, probably multiple sales,

589
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: because they'd be like, look, I'm in this book. And

590
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: even the people who weren't in the book, they were

591
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: clearly interested enough in it to like, yeah, but this

592
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: idea of like oh, yeah, you need to reach out

593
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: to people like they won't just find you in the

594
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: vast marketplace of everything, so, you know, one hundred and

595
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: sixty eight hours. The good news is it's selling as

596
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: many copies per week now as it's sold when it

597
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: came out in twenty ten, so that's amazing. It's a

598
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: perennial seller, which is great. So I'm happy with that

599
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: get royalty checks every six months from it. But I'm

600
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: very grateful that Portfolio, which is part of Penguin which

601
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: is now Penguin Random House, did not give up on

602
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: me like they thought there was. You know, they're willing

603
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: to keep working with me, even though the next book,

604
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: which some people I also may not you know, talk

605
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: about another career sort of dead end. It's called All

606
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: the Money in the World, and was a brief for

607
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: and like, shall we position Laura as a personal finance expert?

608
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: And the answer is no, we should not do that.

609
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: We've already been asked to do a finances episode, and

610
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: I think both of us are like, yeah, we might

611
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: have to have a good guest for that one. If

612
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: anybody wants to volunteer as a great personal finance expert

613
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: to be a guest, then now is the time to

614
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: let us know, because I don't think either of us

615
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: necessarily want to be that well. But it's not that

616
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: I don't understand money. It's just my perspective on it

617
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: is different, and it's not one that translates broadly. I mean,

618
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: the people who do well with this are showing you

619
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: how to you know, save money on your car insurance

620
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: and then you know, do frugal recipes, and you know,

621
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: there's a huge market for that, there is, you know, my,

622
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: I just don't see it that way. I mean, the

623
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: first thing I think about, you know, like I'd often

624
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: rather turn money into time, and but then the good

625
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: thing is but see, I would have thought that your

626
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: perspective would have been valued because it is. Yeah, but

627
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: I guess, well, apparently not as a book. My my,

628
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: I'm happy with my current time management book sales. You

629
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: will note that none of mine have been like a

630
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: number one New York Times bestseller, And you know, part

631
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: of that is that there's also certain narratives people do like,

632
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: which is that you are you know, so so busy

633
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: in this crazy, crazy world. And I will not remember

634
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: write that, so we'll see. Am I always I'm always

635
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: the counter counter argument, which is limits your market to agree.

636
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: But anyway, All the Money I mean, I'm going on

637
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: for a long time on this too. No, but it's

638
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: super interesting, I think, I mean, I think for us,

639
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: those are all of our other points, and we will

640
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: give some of them are like little although interesting, but

641
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: it's the career stuff, and it is so hard to know.

642
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: It's like, well, it all turned out okay, you know,

643
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: so was it a mistake or not? It's so hard

644
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: to Yeah, I mean, so All the Money in the

645
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: World also has not sold very well. I mean sold

646
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: more than hopping, but it did not sell particularly well

647
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: or fast. But in between finishing that manuscript and incoming out,

648
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: I had decided to write a short ebook in coffee

649
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: shop at night while my I don't know was escaping

650
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: the household of three small children once a week or so,

651
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: I wrote a small e book called What the Most

652
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: Successful People Do Before Breakfast and it you know portfolios,

653
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: that's another big portfolio. Was then willing to publish it,

654
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: and we decided to have it come out a few

655
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: months after All the Money in the World and that

656
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: that one really did sell. So that did hit like

657
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: Amazon's official bestseller list. It was number one for audiobooks

658
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: on iTunes, and it was just like experiencing that was

659
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: so different from the previous books that I was just like, oh, well,

660
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: that's what it feels like to write a book that

661
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: people know what you want to read. So I know

662
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: what my niche is now, and so I spend time

663
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: management ever since, and I think it's done awesomely from

664
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: my perspective. I mean, I love your thank you. I

665
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: appreciate that. All right, another light, Well, here's like a

666
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: back in time one. Ready. You know, I've had my

667
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: blog forever and I should have switched it to word

668
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: Press at some point. Could do so much more flexibility.

669
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: Should I have gone to med school? No, much smaller,

670
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: But you know, I think content wise, like I think

671
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: I still have something to offer, but I know people

672
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: don't find it, and I know it looks like a

673
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: super old website and what WordPress would have enabled me

674
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: to more easily like outsourced and facelift it. And at

675
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: every juncture, I was like, well, I have readers, so

676
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to lose them by like moving it.

677
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: And now it's like how many years later, I don't

678
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: even know, seventeen thirteen, whatever, how many or however many

679
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: years I've been fourteen years writing this blog and it's

680
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: still a blogger or blog spot, which is like the

681
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: grandfather's blog site. And oh well, anyway, maybe I'll move it.

682
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: But you could change that. I mean, you can still

683
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: have the shoe box dot com and you just have

684
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: to Yeah, I could migrate it. I may lose comments,

685
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: which would be really sad because I have Like then

686
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: you just hire somebody. It's hard to pay them enough

687
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: that they won't like they will manually transfer them if

688
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: they need to. I need to actually do it. I

689
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: need to just suck it up and do it. And then,

690
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: on that same note, even tho it's supposed to be alternating,

691
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: don't you wish we started this in like twenty fifteen.

692
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: I know, as soon as we met each other, like

693
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: so we went for a run together in the summer

694
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: of twenty fourteen. Oh yees, you're pregnant right and run.

695
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: It would have been great if we had been like,

696
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: as we were running, hey, I have this idea. There's

697
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: this new thing. I should have been like, I'm really

698
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: into podcast. We should start one together, but would not

699
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: because it's true the people that got in on the

700
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: early phases. I mean, now it's just I don't want

701
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: to say the market, but the listeners are much more

702
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: fragmented because there's so many good options. But you know,

703
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: oh wow, well we'd be at three and a half

704
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: million downloads by now instead of like three hundred fifty

705
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: that I mean, you know, at least we started in

706
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. There's that proverb. I'm sure people have seen

707
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: this in all over Instagram, but that you know, the

708
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago

709
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: and the second best time is now, right, so you

710
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: know that is what it is. I think we should Nope,

711
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: that's exactly true. How about vacations. Did you take any

712
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: vacations that were mistakes? Yeah? I can think of yeah,

713
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: I know you Okay, I'll go with mine real quick. Here.

714
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: We rented a beach house for two weeks that summer

715
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: of twenty fourteen, I Ocean Grove, where we always go.

716
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: I thought I had arranged it carefully so that our

717
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: nanny at the time and my husband would trade off

718
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: so I would always have another adult there with me.

719
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: And you know, we had the three kids seven there

720
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: were seven, four and two at the time, and I

721
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: was pregnant with Alex and then our nanny at the

722
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: time decided she wanted to move on to a different job,

723
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: and so she was interviewing for jobs, and so it

724
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: would be sort of last minute that she'd then get

725
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,240
Speaker 1: an interview and so would be able to come out.

726
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: My husband also is like moving around stuff, and so

727
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: then he couldn't be there. I you know, said he

728
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: would be there like Friday, over the weekend and Monday,

729
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: and and then he'd like have stuff on on Monday

730
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: or Friday. You know. It was just it was you

731
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: were in a beach house alone with three children pregnant.

732
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: It was incredibly stressful them we didn't even have great weather, Like,

733
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: so I'm hauling all this stuff to the beach because

734
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 1: none of them were like reliably good beach stuff. Hollers No. Seven,

735
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: four and two. I mean that's you had a two

736
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: year old. That's definitely what I could convince occasionally to

737
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: carry like some towels, but everyone else was just like useless.

738
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: And then I mean the low point of this is

739
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: like I'm so stressed and like, you know, dealing with

740
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: them not all great weather, and the kids like at

741
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: some point they started like jumping off the front porch

742
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: into the bushes, like I and I found them doing this.

743
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: I found my boys doing this, and I come out

744
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: and I'm just like yelling at them, like get in

745
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: the house, get your like you cannot do this. I

746
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: feel like They're gonna like their legs and then I'm

747
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: gonna have to deal with that. Then I get a

748
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: call from our landlord because apparently some of the neighbors

749
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: had heard me yelling at the children. We're trying to

750
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: figure out what was going on. She was basically trying

751
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: to suss out if I was like abusing my children,

752
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: like like, oh my god, Oh I'm pretty much. I

753
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: like I like my husband happened to be there when

754
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: that phone called. Kanye had like gotten in there, and

755
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, hung up the phone and

756
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: I was like in tears, and we are leaving now.

757
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: We are leaving now. You're never doing this to me,

758
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: like not actually abusing my children. I'm just you know,

759
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: the pregnant lady who has children coming out my ears

760
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: that are hurting themselves or trying to hurt themselves and

761
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: you're trying to stop them. Oh my god. I I've

762
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: been in that situation. Well, not not with that many

763
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: kids and pregnant, but like we're the kids just you're

764
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: saying the same thing over again and not getting any

765
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: response and like what are you? You know, Yeah, anyway,

766
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: this is why this is not apparently. I'm sure I

767
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: don't know that there's any parent who hasn't had that happen.

768
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: When you're in you know, the kids are trying to

769
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: hurt themselves. You're in a very stressful situation. Like I

770
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: don't there's nobody who doesn't like get stressed about that.

771
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: All right, Well, our worst trip was probably Disney World

772
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: when Cameron was fourteen months because we decided, oh, we

773
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: had to go for Annibal's third birthday. I'm not sure.

774
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, she kind of enjoyed it as much

775
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: as a three year old. Why did she decide like

776
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: it had to be for the third birthday? I don't know.

777
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: We had just moved down here and it was sort

778
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: of we were giddy about the idea that it was

779
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: like easy to go to Disney World. And don't bring

780
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: a fourteen month old to Disney World. It's like the worst.

781
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 1: It is the worst. They cannot stand in the line,

782
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: like you try to put them in the line. They

783
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: want to do everything, but they want to walk away.

784
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,959
Speaker 1: So I basically couldn't even have him in line because

785
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: he'd like fight me and run the whole time. I

786
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: just remember being like, we're like hemorrhaging money and suffering.

787
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, that was our mistake trip. And then I've

788
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: vowed never to go back with anybody under three, I think.

789
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: And then I totally broke my vow and brought Genevieve

790
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: as like a tiny baby infant. But that was actually

791
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: much much, much better than having a fourteen month old

792
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: because she just like slept in the ergo. He was

793
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: like a total paintings. So yeah, don't get it. The

794
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: the toddlers are tough in general. I think that staring

795
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 1: that down right now, Jenerish nine months and I'm like, oh, yeah,

796
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: she's almost walking terrifying. Yes, yeah, no, that's that's a

797
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: that's a rough one. I don't know. All right, you

798
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: said not taking Spanish in high school or college. Yeah,

799
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: I meanspecially useful for you, and I mean just living

800
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: in the Miami, Oh, it would be so professionally useful.

801
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: It would have been professionally useful in North Carolina as well.

802
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,959
Speaker 1: And I mean it's actually believed or not. It's better

803
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: here than it was in North Carolina because here I

804
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: have so many colleagues that speak Spanish that I just

805
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: basically don't get the Spanish speaking patients for the most part,

806
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: and they're so many people that are bi lingual that

807
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: it's so easy to find interpreter. It was kind of

808
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: a lot harder in North Carolina, where we had a

809
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: very limited number of interpreters and this rapidly expanding population

810
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: of mostly Mexican immigrants, and it's just made things so stressful.

811
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: And I just thought, if I'd only taken Spanish, and

812
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: my attempts to learn Spanish since then have basically failed

813
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: because it takes a lot of time, and I'm not

814
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: quite willing to devote that amount of time to something

815
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: like that when I don't need it need it, and

816
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: I'm not naturally inclined towards languages. I mean, I speak

817
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: like some bad French. The thing is, I speak an

818
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: amount of French that if I had done that amount

819
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: of Spanish, like I think I could have bridged to

820
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: medical Spanish, but instead my French is pretty useless. So yeah, yeah,

821
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: I say, I took like five years of French and

822
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: mine's pretty useless too. You know, I'm sitting there in

823
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: France being like, yeah, I got nothing, Laura, there you

824
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: go on a podcast. Everyone in Europe speaks English better

825
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: than like the average American anyway, so it's not really

826
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: an is satire is? Yeah? No, I was thinking about

827
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: like things I should have done, And you know, for

828
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 1: my writing career, early on, I wrote for a lot

829
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: of different places, but I was sort of always just in,

830
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: like can I get that next byline? And can I

831
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: finish the next story? And I felt like I was

832
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: always just trying to write quick stories, even though I

833
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: had a number of places that would have run like longer,

834
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: meaty things if I had written them, Like if I

835
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: had really pursued sort of big features or you know,

836
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: getting lots of interviews, longer pieces, they would have run them.

837
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: I just didn't do it because I was always you know,

838
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: if I was working for in the article I was,

839
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I want to get my paycheck,

840
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: let me write something quick. I could write one story

841
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: and get paid pretty pretty much the same amount as

842
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: if I, you know, write eight I write eight stories.

843
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: I paid eight for eight stories, and I could write

844
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: it in the same amount of time, Like you know,

845
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: it's always it's a part of my personality. I don't

846
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: necessarily like all that much just easy win aspect, it's good.

847
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it's good for some things. I had the

848
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: satisfice or aspect that I'm good enough, is good enough

849
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: in many ways, but sometimes I think, you know, it

850
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: would have been good to have pieces in my portfolio

851
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: early on that I was able to shop around more,

852
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: but did not. So there we go, you said, letting

853
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: a watch the movie my last one? Yeah, letting NFL watch.

854
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: So at around age two, I started this ritual of

855
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: letting her like watch some YouTube video on the phone

856
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: before bed, And it took like until age four to

857
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: break it. And you're right. I mean, I guess I

858
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: didn't need to break it, but I felt, you know,

859
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: at some point it became very addictive. She'd asked for more,

860
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: it would rile her up. The quality of what she

861
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: chose was like getting gross, Like she always wanted to

862
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: watch these like unboxing videos, which I just find oh,

863
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: just so consumer, like some little kid wearing makeup, like

864
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: opening fifteen new boxes of toys like ew, like that

865
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: is just so bad for the earth and just gross

866
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: and you know, that's what she would gravitate towards. So

867
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: one day we were just like, you're done, we're not

868
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: doing movies anymore. And it actually was fine. But I

869
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 1: sort of wish I had never started that ritual because

870
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: I think she would have been fine without it, or

871
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: doing something else, or maybe it could have been like

872
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: a song, something better, because it was I did it.

873
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: I started it as a crutch and then hung on

874
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: to it for too long. I don't know. I think

875
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: I can't second, I don't think he's damaged, damaged if

876
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: anything else, Maybe you should have started a sideline where

877
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: you have her unboxed, like fifteen toys, and then I wish, yeah,

878
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: then you and Josh could both retire. That'd be great,

879
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: That's true. There are kids who have done that, But

880
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: Alex watches Little Jack Jack. I don't know if anyone's

881
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: listening to this as a fan of Jack Jack who

882
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: plays the toys and on YouTube, and it's like the

883
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: six year old kid and Alex is obsessed with Little

884
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: Jack tyck. Well, you better have a good savings plan,

885
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: because the thing is that does not a longevity type

886
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: of a Jack Jack grows up, it won't be quite

887
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: as yeah, and he has like acne. It's like, no,

888
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: this isn't so rough. I don't regret like what we've

889
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: had to do to get through bed time. I still

890
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: sit with the three year old while he falls asleep

891
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: on the nights that I'm putting into bed, And you know,

892
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: at this point, I'm mostly okay with it because I'm

893
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 1: just I'm reading books on my phone or I'm scrolling

894
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: through Instagram, which I'd rather I should be reading more

895
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: books on the phone versus Instagram. But it's like, you know,

896
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: eventually he falls asleep and I've had a little bit

897
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: of reading time, so it doesn't seem so bad. He'll

898
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: probably outgrow it. Yeah, that habit, actually I would not

899
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: put on my regrets list. We actually did that until

900
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks ago, and we finally were like,

901
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: you know what, you're in the same room, here's some

902
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: reading life. We're leaving just to more get a little

903
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 1: bit of adult time back at night. But I don't

904
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: regret that one. I think you know, also, it's a

905
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: wind down for you too. You're like, okay, Li here relaxed. Well.

906
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: So those were various mistakes regret or not so much

907
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: in some cases, but you know, things turn out mostly okay,

908
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: pretty happy with life as it as it goes. Yeah,

909
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: I am too. That's the funny part. It's like you

910
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: think about what you could do differently, but then you

911
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: look at what you have now and it's like, well,

912
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: I did a lot of things right. I married a

913
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: really wonderful person, and I'm so glad I had chose

914
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 1: to have three kids. And yeahs, mostly good things, all right.

915
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: So let's go to our queue. Our question for the

916
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: episode is this episode drags on? Yeah, this is a

917
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: long perview or workout. I hope everyone's getting their long

918
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: run in for the weekend. Here I'll paraphrase this one.

919
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: I said. We had a writer. A reader. Listener said

920
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: that she had listened to the audio version of my

921
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: latest book, Off the Clock. It was interesting to read

922
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: what you learned about your approximately forty hour average work

923
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: week versus the fifty hours you estimated in previous books.

924
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: But I wonder if both are true. I expect that

925
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: leading up to one hundred and sixty eight hours, and

926
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 1: I know how she does it. We're intense periods, sprints

927
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: if you will, to reach new milestones looking back. Now,

928
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: could it be that you have incorporated strategies and information

929
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: to make it possible to do the same or concentrated

930
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: work in less time. When we learn more and can

931
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: do more, do we need to apologize for doing it

932
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: in less time? I think that sort of rhetorical question.

933
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: But this lady goes on to talk about how as

934
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: she's advanced in her current role, she's realized that she

935
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: can make better, quicker decisions. She knows exactly what resources

936
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: her team needs to move strategies forward, so she can

937
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: work fewer hours and yet still be getting more done.

938
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: And so now she's trying to figure out what do

939
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: I do to reinvest the returns? And so she's spending

940
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: additional time on high value activities at work, such as

941
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: mentoring colleagues and employees, and at home she's spending more

942
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: time with her kids. And so basically she's saying, does

943
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: more time equal more time? The more time you put

944
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: into your career early on, the more payoffs you get.

945
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: So what do you think, Sarah, Yeah, well, I thought

946
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: this question sort of led me down a track to

947
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: think about, like in my line of work, like what

948
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: can be compressed and what can and what's gotten faster

949
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: and what's never going to get faster. And you know,

950
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 1: for in my job, things that can get faster are

951
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: patient documentation, so writing notes, which is a big part

952
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: of the job, figuring out what I can outsource, and

953
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure that applies to a lot of jobs, like

954
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: you start doing everything yourself when you quickly realize like

955
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: this is what I don't have to do myself on

956
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: that will I mean as simple as like I used

957
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: to walk over and scan documents to email myself and

958
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: now I just send a message and it takes like

959
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: a lot. I mean, I don't get as many steps in,

960
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: so that's a problem. But otherwise, yeah, running Wait where

961
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: was I going with that? So that's gotten faster. So

962
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: patient documentation takes let oh, running getting faster, although limited,

963
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: I was saying, I've never I'm never going to turn

964
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: into sal Lane planning in but to some extent you

965
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: can be a little bit more efficient. I do feel

966
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 1: like I get faster reading, and we definitely get faster

967
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: writing and prepping this podcast. But then there are things

968
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: that totally don't compress and I don't necessarily need them

969
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: to compress conversations with patients, Like if you compress an

970
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: encounter beyond a certain point, it's going to become less

971
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: meaningful no matter what. And then family time and childcare,

972
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: like you know, you might be able to get rid

973
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: of the parts that you don't like, but the quality

974
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: time to a certain extent, like you there is something

975
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: that quantity means. You can't spend two minutes with your

976
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: child and be like Jack done. I mean I guess

977
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: you could, but well you can't guarantee that that would

978
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: get everything in it that would have happened in a

979
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: in a longer period of time. But yeah, I mean

980
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: interactions with other people are always going to be difficult

981
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: to compress and make more you know, efficient and putting

982
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: air quotes around it there because I don't think that's

983
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: really the goal necessarily with human interaction. That's you know,

984
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: nurturing the relationship and you know, like part of different sorry,

985
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: that's my part of Part of a question that's intriguing

986
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 1: to me is like do you get punished for doing

987
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: things faster and then like being assigned more. I mean,

988
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: I think there is an element of that that you

989
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: need to protect yourself from to some extent. So if

990
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: you do become more efficient and then you're doing other

991
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: things which are not not the widget cranking out. You

992
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: have to make it clear to your employer that you

993
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: are still you're doing other things of value in that

994
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: additional time. I guess that, or maybe you're not. I guess.

995
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: I guess that's that's a good question. Can you just

996
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: leave early? Yeah, I mean it depends on the environment

997
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: and some places that would be harder to pull off

998
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: than others. I think some places you can definitely cash

999
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: in your time dividends better than others. I know. One

1000
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: of the things that people resent most about billable hour

1001
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: jobs is I feel like, even if I'm more efficient,

1002
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: like I'm still needing to build these hours, so then

1003
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: I just have to go find more work to do.

1004
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: But that's that's a very short term perspective. And I

1005
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: think because as you become more efficient and good at

1006
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: your job and these billable hour client jobs, like, then

1007
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: clients start coming to you because your work is so

1008
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: good and so you have to spend and then you

1009
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: can charge more unless I'm going to find those clients

1010
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: because if they're coming to you, like, then you can

1011
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: build more of your time because you're not having to

1012
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: build in as much like, oh, I need to go

1013
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,439
Speaker 1: find new clients time. So that's that's a very short

1014
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: term perspective of thinking. Oh, if I'm more efficient, I

1015
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: just you know, can't build as much time. And that's

1016
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: the problem I think for me. Yeah right, I mean

1017
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: what I do writing, it's definitely gotten more efficient over time.

1018
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: When I was first writing stories and articles, I wouldn't

1019
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: know exactly who I should call, and I wouldn't know

1020
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: you know that they would say yes to being interviewed,

1021
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't know exactly the right questions to ask them,

1022
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: So I'd have to ask ask more questions and longer interviews,

1023
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: and then I'd have to hunt through all that for

1024
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: the right quotes and figure out where to put it

1025
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: in the article, and the article would have to go

1026
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: through more drafts, or even something as practical as like

1027
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: if you're assigned a thousand words and your first draft

1028
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: is sixteen hundred, you've got a problem because you can't

1029
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: cut that down to a thousand words as easily as

1030
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: you could. Like, writing for a sixteen hundred word length,

1031
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: you have a different structure than if you were writing

1032
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,760
Speaker 1: for a thousand word length. Yeah, oh interesting. You wouldn't

1033
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: have known that on the outset, but you know exactly.

1034
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: But now I know exactly what can fit in a

1035
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: thousand words, and so when I write an article that's

1036
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: supposed to be a thousand words, it will be between

1037
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 1: nine hundred and eleven one hundred in the first draft,

1038
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: just naturally. That's because you know what fits. And so

1039
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: it's that definitely makes things more efficient. Blog writing definitely

1040
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 1: more efficient. I think we've gotten yeah, cost prep more efficient. Speaking.

1041
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 1: You know, I tailor my speeches to individual clients, but

1042
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: many of the points can be used in the same speeches,

1043
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: so that doesn't have to be completely rewritten every time.

1044
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: So that's a time efficiency, a time dividend there, if

1045
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: you will. But yeah, no, I think you definitely can.

1046
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: And it's good to spend that extra time on high

1047
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: value things like this lady was saying. The mentoring colleagues

1048
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: is a great thing to do with your time, to

1049
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: actually invest in those relationships, knowing that you know, I

1050
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 1: will get my work done. I don't need to carve

1051
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: out quite as much time for say, writing that report

1052
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 1: as I did in the past. So sure you can

1053
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 1: do more of both. So we have our love of

1054
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 1: the week, I guess is our last thing for this episode,

1055
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: What's What's yours this week? Mine is I just received

1056
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: in the mail the sequel to the Run Fast Eat

1057
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: Slow Cookbook, which is called Run Fast, Cook Fast, Eat Slow.

1058
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: And I will admit I've been not doing a ton

1059
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 1: of cooking lately, but I'm kind of motivated by this

1060
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: one because there's a lot of really pretty easy looking things.

1061
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: And I also like we've been eating some of the

1062
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: stuff even though I haven't been cooking it because I

1063
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: put it on the Week's list, so I highly recommend it.

1064
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: I love both of these volumes. They're just like healthy

1065
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: food that's actually good, like the kids will eat it,

1066
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: and the pictures are really beautiful, and you know, Sheleine

1067
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: flannag In is total badass. But Alis Kopecki, the co

1068
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: author who's like the real chef behind it, is really

1069
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: really cool too, and yeah, legit cookbook from real runners.

1070
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: So so my love of the week is I am

1071
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: so late to all these bandwagons. But the Lacroix water,

1072
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 1: like the Sparkling Water, a total parody of myself too.

1073
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: I think about it like I was in I was

1074
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: at the super Mariot Race. I'm like in my running

1075
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: clothes and going to the case of the pamplamuse Lacroix,

1076
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,280
Speaker 1: and I'm like, you know, waiting for this other lady

1077
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: to go away, who's also like in running clothes, standing

1078
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: there in front of the great fruit flavor of sparkling water,

1079
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: like she's waiting for me to go out your favorite flavor,

1080
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: and I'm like, no, no, I'm also going for the Lacroix.

1081
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: Of course, both of us here in our running gear

1082
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: are like headed for the cans of Lacroix. Yeah, no,

1083
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: it's it's good, it's it's pat You know, sometimes in

1084
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 1: the evening you want something that tastes a little different,

1085
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: to like a little special, not just straight up water

1086
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 1: to drink, and you know you can have a beer,

1087
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: but like you're only gonna have one of those, and

1088
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: you know you're some nights you're not gonna have one

1089
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: of those, Like it's not really a beer night. So

1090
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: it's like the Lacroix is like the special drink. I

1091
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: guess in the evening it's I like the orange and

1092
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: the raspberry cranberry. So you're you're already on this bandway

1093
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: then oh we've we've yes, you're sitting at it very

1094
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: much so I'm a parody of your parody until Lacroix.

1095
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: But anyway, this has been best of both worlds. It's

1096
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: been episode fifty eight where we are mostly talking about

1097
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 1: our biggest mistakes. Tune in next week for more on

1098
00:52:54,000 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 1: making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You

1099
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or

1100
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find

1101
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been

1102
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next

1103
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 1: time for more on making work and life work together.