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Speaker 1: Welcome one and all to the Professional Homegirl Podcast. Before

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Speaker 1: we begin today's episode, we want to remind you that

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Speaker 1: the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those

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Speaker 1: of the hosts and guests and are intended for educational

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Speaker 1: and entertaining purposes. In this safe space, no question is

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Speaker 1: off limits because you never know how someone's storyline can

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Speaker 1: be your lifeline. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is here to

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Speaker 1: celebrate the diverse voices, stories and experiences of women of color,

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Speaker 1: providing a platform for authentic and empowering conversations. There will

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Speaker 1: be some key king, some tears, but most importantly a

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Speaker 1: reminder that tough times don't last, but professional Homegirls do

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Speaker 1: enjoy the show.

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Speaker 2: Hey, professional Homegirls. It Isha girl Ebine here and I hope, okay,

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Speaker 2: I hope all is cute because I know we love

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Speaker 2: some cuteness. Now, okay, now, before we dive into this

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Speaker 2: week's episode, let's take a moment for a little bit

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Speaker 2: of housekeeping. So, y'all, I am super excited to share

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Speaker 2: that we are gearing up for the very first annual

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Speaker 2: the Professional Homegirl Turkey Drive. This has been a dream

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Speaker 2: of mine for many years, and I am confident that

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Speaker 2: with your support this year would be a tremendous success.

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Speaker 2: Our goal is to feed one hundred families in Mephis

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Speaker 2: and I need your health professional homegirls to make it happen.

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Speaker 2: As professional homegirls, not only are we known for our

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Speaker 2: genna sae quhay okay, because y'all know all we the

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Speaker 2: badest and the bestest, but we're also known for our

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Speaker 2: generosity and compassion. If you're able, please click the donate

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Speaker 2: link in the show notes below to contribute. Remember every donation,

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Speaker 2: no matter how small, will go directly to providing turkeys

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Speaker 2: for families in need. Now, let's come together to make

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Speaker 2: a meaningful impact this holiday season and show our community

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Speaker 2: the power of kindness and support. Thank you all in

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Speaker 2: advance for your generosity. Also, I received a love letter

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Speaker 2: from our professional homegirl Dana and it reads, I just

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Speaker 2: found your podcast. I am a rupture brain ANEURYSM survivor

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Speaker 2: and had to respond, I just survived one in April

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Speaker 2: and this podcast is what I needed. Crazy good How

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Speaker 2: God helps you find what it is that you need.

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Speaker 2: Wanted to reach out to both of you and thank

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Speaker 2: you for your words, generosity, and wisdom. We as women

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Speaker 2: need to support so much look forward to listening to more.

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Speaker 2: So shout out to our Professional Homegirl Dana. Y'all. I

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Speaker 2: really love when y'all see me love letters, so please

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Speaker 2: continue to email me at Hello at thephgpodcast dot com. Also,

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Speaker 2: we have a lot of listeners here, so don't forget

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Speaker 2: to follow me on all social media platforms at the

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Speaker 2: Professional Homegirl and at the PHG podcast. Hold Me Down,

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Speaker 2: Don't hold me up Now. For this week's episode, my

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Speaker 2: guest life took a dramatic turn when she met her

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Speaker 2: ex on a dating app. Despite a nagging sense that

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Speaker 2: something was wrong, societal precious led her to stay in

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Speaker 2: this relationship. The situation became so tragic when she discovered

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Speaker 2: that not only were her ax a serial killer, but

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Speaker 2: he also took the life of their son, Prince. In

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Speaker 2: this episode, my guests were revealed the painful details of

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Speaker 2: her journey, including her ex conviction currently serving life without parole.

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Speaker 2: We'll also cover her experience as a single mother by

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Speaker 2: choice following this devastating laws and the advice she hopes

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Speaker 2: to pass on to her daughters. We'll discuss how this

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Speaker 2: experience reshaped her views on family courts, trust and forgiveness,

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Speaker 2: and how societal expectations influenced her choices. Y'all get ready,

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Speaker 2: because my ex was a serial killer. Starts now. So

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Speaker 2: to my guests, thank you so much for being on

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Speaker 2: a show. Thanks for having me of course. How are

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Speaker 2: you doing. How you feeling?

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Speaker 3: Uh, feeling good. It's you know, the struggle is real.

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Speaker 3: It's a Thursday.

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Speaker 2: So we were just talking about what I was telling her.

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Speaker 2: I think they putting something in the air because I

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Speaker 2: was like super tired. And then she was telling me

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Speaker 2: about you know, it's the first week of school, so

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Speaker 2: she's been super busy where her kids.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have their intwo. They're in two separate campuses

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Speaker 3: this year, so I feel like I'm being stretched into

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Speaker 3: separate directions. So it's been a struggle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all. Hard to get a drink, Yaga, she

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Speaker 2: like she over it. Yes, Well, how was your vacation.

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Speaker 3: Uh it was good, it was really good. We go

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Speaker 3: to coastry. You've been going to Costa Rica for like

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Speaker 3: three years now, as at the end of the summer,

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Speaker 3: and it's just like always it's like my happy place

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Speaker 3: because it's such a chill environment and it's like place

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Speaker 3: where you can sort of come off the stress of

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Speaker 3: the United States, and so it's always a really good recharge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love Coasta Reco. What makes you go there

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Speaker 2: every year?

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Speaker 3: Like I mean I first went, it was like twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one, right after things what after they had really

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Speaker 3: just like reopened the border after COVID, and I just, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I just fell in love with it, Like it's just

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Speaker 3: so laid back and a really kid friendly place. And

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Speaker 3: so then I found a summer camp there that that

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Speaker 3: my kids can go to, and so they go to

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Speaker 3: camp and usually it's a local well I don't know

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Speaker 3: about all that, but it's a great it's a great

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Speaker 3: like language camp that they go to for a couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks in the summer, and it allows me to

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Speaker 3: like still work for part of the trip, so I

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Speaker 3: don't have to take off the whole time. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: they have fun and we all surf and do just

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Speaker 3: like you know, just really fun vacation y type stuff.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and the food there is really good, y'all

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Speaker 2: should Yeah amazing. Now I was telling you this off air,

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Speaker 2: but when I was reading your book the whole time,

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Speaker 2: I was just like, WTF. So do you ever look

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Speaker 2: back in your life and think to yourself like how

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Speaker 2: did all this happen?

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Speaker 3: I have had those moments, for sure, but I try

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Speaker 3: not to be that type of person that's like, oh

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Speaker 3: my gosh, you know, I'm like suck in this victimhood

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Speaker 3: of like all this stuff happening to me. Right, I

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Speaker 3: have learned that, you know, there's just there's scary people

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Speaker 3: out there, and I think this could really happen to anyone.

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Speaker 3: And for sure, I think I was fairly naive when

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Speaker 3: I met him, So I think, yeah, there's definitely like

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Speaker 3: risk factors that I had that I probably that at

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Speaker 3: least for me as a parent, I'm trying to teach

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Speaker 3: my daughters recognize those sorts of things so that they

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Speaker 3: do not repeat the same mistakes that I made. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't necessarily feel that I am like

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Speaker 3: highly unlucky or you know, I have because because I

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Speaker 3: don't actually feel that way. I think I am very

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Speaker 3: fortunate and I've had a lot of amazing blessings in

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Speaker 3: my life. But I you know, I just think, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I am a person who had a terrible tragedy happened

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Speaker 3: to me. But I think that, you know, a lot

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Speaker 3: of people live through really terrible things so I don't

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Speaker 3: necessarily think that, Yeah, I don't. I try not to

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Speaker 3: dwell too much on like, oh, my gosh, this happened

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Speaker 3: to me, because I also don't want it to be

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Speaker 3: like a defining moment in my life.

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Speaker 2: Right, you know. That's one of my next question about

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Speaker 2: after all these years, have there been any misconceptions about

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Speaker 2: your story that you like to address? And one of

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Speaker 2: the things that I felt like is very relatable is

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Speaker 2: that this can happen to anyone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there is a lot of misconception. I

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Speaker 3: think there's it's actually psychologically protect to hear about tragedies

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Speaker 3: like this. You know, hear about women and sometimes men too,

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Speaker 3: who fall in love with psychopaths and have horrible things

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Speaker 3: happen to them. It's protective to think that to kind

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Speaker 3: of take this mentality of like, oh, they must have

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Speaker 3: been a bad person themselves, or it must be something

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Speaker 3: wrong with him that they didn't pick up on this, right.

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Speaker 3: And I think a lot of people think that way

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Speaker 3: because it helps them feel safe walking through the world

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Speaker 3: thinking like that could never happen to me. And I

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Speaker 3: think we see like a similar mentality with like school shootings,

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Speaker 3: for example, people know that the United States is very dangerous.

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Speaker 3: They know that we have this obsession with violence, and

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Speaker 3: yet every single time it happens, they're like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: I can't believe this happened to me. And I'm like,

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Speaker 3: we're really like can't.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's just I mean, I think we

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Speaker 3: have to sort of wake up as a culture and realize, like,

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Speaker 3: you are not immune to this. And typically people who

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Speaker 3: are dangerous and scary like this, they're not going to

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Speaker 3: go pick somebody else who's also dangerous, scary, dangerous and scary.

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Speaker 3: They're going to pick somebody who is caring, who is empathic,

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Speaker 3: and just a good person and a good person, right,

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Speaker 3: They're going to for good people because why would they

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Speaker 3: go back, Why would they go after someone as evil

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Speaker 3: as they are. They don't want to get themselves into it, right, right.

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Speaker 3: So I do think that there is a common misconception

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Speaker 3: or I don't even know if it's a misconception or

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Speaker 3: really just I think it's this protective mechanism. People have

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Speaker 3: to try and focus on what the person did to

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Speaker 3: get themselves in that situation instead of focusing on what

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Speaker 3: is so society we're doing that is creating these people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you also make another good point because

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Speaker 2: my cousin he thinks I'm crazy, but I was like,

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Speaker 2: I think it's time that we start teaching my niece

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Speaker 2: how to survive, God forbid if there's a school shooting,

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Speaker 2: because there was just a school shooting well a day

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Speaker 2: or two ago in Atlanta. And he was like, well,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to put fear on her. I say, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I also want her to be prepared. Unfortunately, but yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I think that, you know, I think that we

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Speaker 3: also need to start talking about toxic masculinity, we start

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Speaker 3: talking about the culture of violence that we have in

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Speaker 3: this country.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Just today at my daughter's school, there was a bunch

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Speaker 3: of little boys that were taking off their shirts and

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Speaker 3: wrestling on the ground right on school grounds, right, and

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Speaker 3: the parents were standing there laughing about it. And I

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Speaker 3: was mortified. I was like, this is not funny. And

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Speaker 3: it's like Lord of the Flies, And I'm like, did

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Speaker 3: you ever read Lord of the Flies? Like Lord of

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Speaker 3: the Fries was literally about like the moral depravity that

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Speaker 3: happens without like parental oversight, right right. And I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: to myself, I'm like, why would you be laughing about this,

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Speaker 3: about your kids sitting here fighting on school grounds with

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Speaker 3: their shirts off, right in the middle of the day,

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Speaker 3: like and so I think about these things, and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I think one of the misconceptions in society is that

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Speaker 3: we don't like to hold ourselves accountable for the culture

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Speaker 3: that we're creating, and then when it happens to us, we're.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh my god, I'm a surprised.

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Speaker 3: I can't believe this, Like, right, we're all contributing to it, right,

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Speaker 3: every single parent who was sitting there looking at that

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Speaker 3: and not saying anything about it. And even my five

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Speaker 3: year old I asked her, I said, you know, did

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Speaker 3: any of the girls take off their shirts and started fighting?

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Speaker 3: And she looked at me like I was crazy, and

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Speaker 3: she's like, no, Mama, they know we can't, like we

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Speaker 3: know we can't get away with that. And I'm like,

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Speaker 3: you know, at five years old, we have already internalized

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Speaker 3: here that women cannot get away with or you know,

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Speaker 3: it's like somehow okay for men to act a certain way,

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Speaker 3: and so it's like it's all fun and games until

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Speaker 3: those little boys become men who as salt and rape people,

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Speaker 3: and we all act like we don't know where it

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Speaker 3: came from. It's like, I know where it came from.

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Speaker 3: It came from the playground when we're sitting around watching

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Speaker 3: and not doing anything about it.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have a whole section about this. But

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Speaker 2: the other person that was also the coprit in your story,

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Speaker 2: I feel like with society, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's not just so I tell people a

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Speaker 3: lot that. You know, people are like, oh, well, are

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Speaker 3: you angry at your ex or like, you know, do

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Speaker 3: you feel like justice was served? And I think that

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Speaker 3: the thing I tried to get across in my book

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Speaker 3: was like, my son's father is not the demon in

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Speaker 3: the story, right, Like, to me, yeah, it's not that

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Speaker 3: he's not responsible for what he did. He absolutely is,

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Speaker 3: and he's a horrible person who deserves to rot in

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Speaker 3: prison for the rest of his life. However, the demon

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Speaker 3: in my story is the system. Yeah, like the like

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Speaker 3: literally injustice system, right, because this man was enabled for

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Speaker 3: over a decade and son wasn't even the first person

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Speaker 3: he killed. So we can look at the situation and

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Speaker 3: be like, Okay, he did this, But the thing that

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Speaker 3: really keeps me up at night is that the people

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Speaker 3: who enabled him are still walking the streets making the mistakes,

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Speaker 3: having not learned from what happened.

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Speaker 2: Still protecting the law. Exactly what was your life like

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Speaker 2: before you met Prince Father? Because I feel like you

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Speaker 2: was lit like you had a good job, You was

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Speaker 2: a CIA agent, you had todt.

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Speaker 3: A great job. I was over educated. Yeah, I came

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Speaker 3: from you know, a good family, you know. I think

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Speaker 3: I think if I were just to describe me, I

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Speaker 3: was very naive, you know. And I was taught that

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Speaker 3: you don't judge a book by its cover. You know,

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Speaker 3: That's not what I'm teaching my kids. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: teach my kids. If you have a weird feeling in

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Speaker 3: your gut about what books or acts, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: okay to keep it moving. And that's not being mean,

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Speaker 3: that's being self protective. And I think, yeah, like, I

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Speaker 3: think there was somebody who, right after my son died,

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Speaker 3: had the nerve to say, well, you know, mother Teresa

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Speaker 3: never falls for Saddam Hussein. And I think the whole

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Speaker 3: idea is she was trying to say, oh, there must

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Speaker 3: be something wrong with me, because I think and I

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Speaker 3: was like, actually, mother Teresa is the kind of person

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Speaker 3: who does fall from Saddam Hussein. Because that type of

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Speaker 3: person is going to try to see the good in everybody, right, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm like, that's your flawed, like your logic

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Speaker 3: is flawed.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Now can you share how you first met

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Speaker 2: Prince Father and what were your initial impressions of him?

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Speaker 2: Because when I was reading, I was like, come on, now,

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Speaker 2: come on.

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Speaker 3: Now, right, I mean, okay, I think I say this

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Speaker 3: in the book, like society is a traitor's bitch, right,

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Speaker 3: society as a traders be.

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Speaker 2: No, we ocur because the whole time was like girl

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Speaker 2: like this nigga is trash, Like, oh, he was terrible,

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Speaker 2: he was terrible, sounded crazy.

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Speaker 3: I think I think that, you know, I won't lie.

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Speaker 3: I was not in the best place when I met him.

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Speaker 3: I was, you know, I had just returned from serving overseas,

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Speaker 3: and anyone who has been in sort of like a

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Speaker 3: US government overseas state department, military, they're also like similar

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Speaker 3: in this way, people get married very young, and it's

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Speaker 3: typically I was at it. I was stationed in a

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Speaker 3: place where everyone was married. It was pretty much just

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Speaker 3: like me and the really young Marines that weren't. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I felt like I had just spent years with

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Speaker 3: people being like, why are you still single? Like what's

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Speaker 3: wrong with you? Why are you still single? Mind you?

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Speaker 3: I was still much twenties, so it's not like I was,

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Speaker 3: you know, like pushing fifty or anything, right single was

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Speaker 3: I was super young, and so when I came back,

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Speaker 3: I think that was weighing on me. You know, I

289
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Speaker 3: felt like I was running out of time, even though

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Speaker 3: that sounds silly now, you know, like in my early forties,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, like this is ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: I had a desible society. Will that's how to make

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Speaker 2: you feel?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I felt like I was rushed And I remember,

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Speaker 3: you know, it really was a perfect storm, like we

296
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Speaker 3: had just had a snowmagedd in in Washington, DC. I

297
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Speaker 3: was just starting to sort of try to meet people.

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Speaker 3: And at the time, internet dating was not that popular.

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Speaker 3: I mean, everybody was doing it, but nobody was willing

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Speaker 3: to admit that they were doing it right, but there

301
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Speaker 3: was really it was really hard to organically meet people,

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Speaker 3: similar to how it is now, really right, because I

303
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Speaker 3: wasn't in school anymore. I didn't want to date anyone

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Speaker 3: that I had worked with right, been there, done that,

305
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Speaker 3: didn't want to do it again. And I was kind

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Speaker 3: of craving a relationship with somebody who was not in

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Speaker 3: my circle. I was like, I want someone out of

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Speaker 3: my circle. In hindsight, I'm like, there is safety and

309
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Speaker 3: dating someone who like you at least can vet through friends.

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Speaker 3: But that's a whole other thing, right, And so another

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Speaker 3: mistake I think I made was that because it was

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Speaker 3: snowing outside and we couldn't actually leave, we had had

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Speaker 3: several phone conversations, and you know, you can't really catch

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Speaker 3: a vibe for someone over the phone, like you're hearing

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00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 3: them and like he was a great storyteller, and so

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Speaker 3: we spent several times on the phone, and by the

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Speaker 3: time we met up in person, I kind of had

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Speaker 3: this like false sense of loyalty where I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I have to see this through because we had such

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Speaker 3: a good conversation. And again going back to like, you know,

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Speaker 3: the first time I saw him, he did not look

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Speaker 3: like his pictures, and I had a feeling in the

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Speaker 3: pit of my stomach, Like I remember talking to my friend.

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Speaker 3: I was like, Lisa, he doesn't look like the pictures,

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Speaker 3: and Lisa's like, you gotta go go, just leave, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, I can't leave. That's mean, and you know,

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Speaker 3: in hindsight, I'm like, I should have left, right, I

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Speaker 3: should have.

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Speaker 5: Just left, Yeah, But I didn't because I had this

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Speaker 5: feeling of like, oh, well, that's really mean to like

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Speaker 5: look at someone and be like, oh, I don't want

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Speaker 5: to sit and have coffee with you because you like

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Speaker 5: look a.

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Speaker 3: Certain way, you know. Yeah, But realistically, like when you're dating,

335
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Speaker 3: if you think someone's not your jam, it's not mean.

336
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 3: You could just be like, okay, like you can't fish

337
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,040
Speaker 3: me right, Like these pictures are not like right, it

338
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,440
Speaker 3: looks like him. It just looked like he was much older,

339
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Speaker 3: and just there was something about his vibe that was off.

340
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,440
Speaker 3: I was like, it just doesn't something's not.

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Speaker 2: The way he dressed, the way he described he.

342
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,439
Speaker 3: Dressed, that something was off right. But I think the

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Speaker 3: hard part and like anyone who's dealt with a psychopath

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Speaker 3: and I don't even say narcissistic personality, because I feel

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Speaker 3: like there is a difference between psychopath and somebody who's

346
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Speaker 3: even just on the spectrum. But people like this have

347
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Speaker 3: a tendency. You know, once they sort of have you

348
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Speaker 3: in their grasp, they can be so charming that it

349
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Speaker 3: almost just makes you forget like you just see a

350
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Speaker 3: different person. Right.

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Speaker 2: He definitely love bomb you.

352
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 3: Oh he loved Bombie, but he also you know, it

353
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 3: wasn't just me, Like he had people working for him.

354
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Speaker 3: He didn't pay his lawyer more than six hundred dollars

355
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Speaker 3: the whole year that we were like we were in

356
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Speaker 3: that whole fight. I spent over one hundred and fifty

357
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 3: grand in fifteen months trying to protect my son and

358
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Speaker 3: he paid six hundred bucks. And it wasn't because like

359
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 3: you know, she was doing this pro bono like she

360
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Speaker 3: she I think she actually fell for him, Like.

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Speaker 2: I think they was messing around with each other it.

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Speaker 3: You know, I I could not come right out and

363
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Speaker 3: say what I thought, because you're not supposed to do

364
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,680
Speaker 3: that in books. You know, you're not supposed to well.

365
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Speaker 2: You're gonna do it on here.

366
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Speaker 3: I didn't want to be dude right right. There was

367
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Speaker 3: a lot of stuff like even just the police. It's like,

368
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Speaker 3: I I will never know what exactly motivated these people

369
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,720
Speaker 3: to continue to protect him. You know, I have theories,

370
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 3: of course, you know, like I think, like I have

371
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Speaker 3: heard rumors that there were something that he had on

372
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Speaker 3: the police, right that would certainly make sense given.

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Speaker 4: All the trafficking ring that they did exactly like that

374
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Speaker 4: would make sense, right, Was it ever proven?

375
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Speaker 3: No? But it just doesn't Like there's no there's no

376
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Speaker 3: logical explanation to why they'd be the way that they behaved.

377
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 3: And knowing what I know from other police officers who

378
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,360
Speaker 3: were in that department, mostly female officers, who were basically

379
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 3: whistleblowing on them, like there was just some shady shit

380
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 3: going on. Yeah, I don't know, right, Like, but see

381
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Speaker 3: that's to me, like those people are the demon in

382
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 3: my story because they're still out there and they never

383
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 3: had to they never had their day in court, right,

384
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Speaker 3: And so that to me is scarier because he didn't

385
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 3: act alone, you know, like he just one single person

386
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 3: could not have carried out the death and destruction that

387
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 3: he perpetrated for over a decade if it hadn't been

388
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Speaker 3: for people helping him.

389
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now I will say this y'all because I don't

390
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Speaker 2: want y'all think that my guess was just all naive.

391
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 2: Because my guests over here looking like a young Vanessa

392
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Speaker 2: Williams and her prime So.

393
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Speaker 3: I appreciate that.

394
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't want y'all think like, oh, she ugliest

395
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,200
Speaker 2: men I know like this can really happen to anybody.

396
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 2: So with that being said, but also I'm so surprised

397
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 2: that you said that you were so naive because being

398
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 2: at your dad is from the South, and he's like

399
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Speaker 2: a black man, Like he taught you how to be tough.

400
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 2: So I'm surprised that you feel.

401
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: Like I would see. I mean, even I think, like

402
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 3: I think they're there. There is a way and I

403
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 3: and I described this in one of my opening scenes

404
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 3: in the book, like my dad had this way about

405
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 3: him where he raised us as though we were growing

406
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 3: up in the sixties in Mississippi, right, and like we

407
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 3: obviously weren't right. And I think that, you know, part

408
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 3: of the reason I put that in the book is

409
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Speaker 3: I think that there is a there's probably a deeper

410
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,120
Speaker 3: discussion that needs to be had about generational trauma.

411
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Speaker 1: Right.

412
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 3: A lot of people would read that and be like,

413
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, it was abusive. I don't I didn't

414
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 3: put that in there to say that.

415
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 2: I put that I didn't get that from them. But

416
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 2: I'm also from the South too.

417
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 3: So exactly. And that's the thing. And it's interesting because

418
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 3: black people and white people have had completely different responses

419
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 3: to that site. But what I was trying to explain

420
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 3: is there was a way, like I was raised that

421
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 3: when you are in danger, you don't flip out. You

422
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 3: get the composure, right, Yeah, you have a certain level

423
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 3: of composure. And I think that some of that is

424
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 3: remnants of generational trauma, because like we had to be

425
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 3: a certain way, you know, that's what we teach our kids.

426
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 3: But I think that the interesting way that it played

427
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 3: out in my story is that when I was in

428
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 3: situations where I had to like talk to the police

429
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 3: about what was happening, they had an expectation of a

430
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 3: way that I should be acting based on what I

431
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 3: was saying, and I wasn't acting the way they expected.

432
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,719
Speaker 3: Right Now, I didn't deal with black officers, right, were

433
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 3: white officers, And perhaps they just didn't realize they didn't

434
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 3: understand what they were seeing, right or there was something

435
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 3: else going on possibly, But either way, I think I

436
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 3: think even if you're prepared for it, I think there's

437
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 3: still a certain level of naivete that you experience. Like,

438
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: you know, I think many black people or most black

439
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: people grow up knowing that, like police brutality is a possibility,

440
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 3: but there's a difference between like thinking you're prepared for

441
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,160
Speaker 3: it and then how you act when it actually happens, right,

442
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 3: And so I think we also in order to survive,

443
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 3: we sort of have to live in this like we

444
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 3: just we have to have some of this like cognitive

445
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 3: diffidence between like what we know could happen and like

446
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 3: really feeling like it's going to happen. And so even

447
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 3: though I mean part of being trained at the CIA

448
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 3: is like you're trained to be aware, but you can't

449
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 3: live with the level of hyper vigilance yep, every single day, right,

450
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 3: And so when you're on us soil and you're feeling

451
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 3: comfortable and you're feeling at home, you're not going to

452
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 3: be living with that sense of hyper vigilance, and you're

453
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 3: not going to expect like I think that you know,

454
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 3: we all take for granted, like when someone tells you

455
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 3: something about themselves and you're dating, like you're not going

456
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 3: to be like, oh, I'm gonna just like run his

457
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: so security number right, right, And we also have to

458
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 3: realize like back in twenty ten, twenty eleven, like even

459
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 3: just googling somebody wasn't all that yeah, right, you know,

460
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,479
Speaker 3: right now it's like you can changed times have definitely changed,

461
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 3: and like I did google him, there was nothing there, right,

462
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: he did change his name, right, so I didn't have

463
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 3: his real name. But I think even if I had

464
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 3: had his real name, like the police all the other

465
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 3: things that he had been involved in, they had never

466
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 3: released his name publicly, so like unless I knew more

467
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 3: information about him, there was nothing. There was nothing to find, right, right,

468
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 3: And even ultimately when I hired the private investigator, But

469
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: that point, I had had his social Security number just

470
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,239
Speaker 3: based on paperwork we had filed for my son. So

471
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: like that's not something I would have had, like pre

472
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 3: him being born. It's not like he was going to

473
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 3: be like, oh and my social Security number is you know, right, right,

474
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: So I think and I like, like I said, I mean,

475
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 3: I think we just take for granted, like if you

476
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: see someone who owns their own house and they have car,

477
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 3: they have been raising their other son, you know, and

478
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 3: presumably they work, like you're not gonna just like I

479
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 3: don't think anybody would make exactly, and like I wasn't

480
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 3: going to make the exumption that he was living off

481
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: like social Security death benefits from the people he had murdered,

482
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 3: Like yeah, that was crazy, right, And so this just

483
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 3: like it was so completely out of my normal construct

484
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 3: of like what happens in the world. Yeah that you know,

485
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 3: it's like so yeah, like he dressed funny, but other

486
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 3: than that, like there and then and then for someone

487
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 3: to present to you, like you know, everyone's like, oh,

488
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 3: you should meet their family. I met people who said

489
00:25:58,720 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 3: they were his family.

490
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: But I thought they were all weird too.

491
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: They were all a little of a strange shoe. But like, realistically,

492
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 3: you know, when someone's like I'm his aunt, I'm his uncle,

493
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 3: and then you don't find out until you meet his

494
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 3: real on uncle, right that these people were not even

495
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: related to him. You know, it's like, how do you know?

496
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 3: It's not like I was doing cheek swabs and like

497
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 3: DNA tests to see if they were actually related. So

498
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's a mess, Like it's crazy. But

499
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 3: I also think that I think that perhaps to the

500
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: degree that it happened to me, it doesn't necessarily happen

501
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 3: to that degree on a regular basis. But I do

502
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 3: think that there are a lot of really problematic people

503
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 3: in the world. Yeah, and you know, I have heard

504
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 3: stories of women who get into relationships and the man

505
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 3: steals the money, or you know, like there's just a

506
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 3: lot of really bad people out there, and you know,

507
00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 3: I hooked into a particularly terrible one. But I but

508
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 3: I don't think it's as abnormal as people think. I

509
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 3: think that it's just that people typically like this do

510
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 3: not get away for so many years with what he

511
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 3: got away with.

512
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 2: Do you think there's a lot of Syracullis walking amongst us?

513
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: Because I think a lot of people do some weird shit.

514
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 3: I think there are a lot of morally depraved people

515
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 3: walking amongst us, and I think there are a lot

516
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: of people like that who think that who if they

517
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 3: thought they could get away with it.

518
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: They definitely do it.

519
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: And I think that people also don't realize that there

520
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 3: are many people probably living amongst us who have killed

521
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 3: people who have gotten away with it. M hmmm, because

522
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: if you look at my ex, for example, like you know,

523
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 3: I think he probably killed more than three people.

524
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: I think the three I was just about to ask

525
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: you that, right, But he.

526
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 3: Lived in New York for a very long time, and

527
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: and we never found where he came from in New York.

528
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 3: I mean it was like literally he popped up in Virginia,

529
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 3: And so you know, I suspect. He had a whole

530
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 3: life there, Uh, and a whole bunch of dead bodies

531
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 3: that nobody ever him.

532
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: You know.

533
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: Another thing that I thought was weird was that he

534
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: shared a bank account with a man. And you've mentioned

535
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: briefly in your book that John spoke about the concept

536
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: of being bisexual.

537
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 3: Uh, we spoke, it wasn't It wasn't that he.

538
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: Because I'm like, why was he sharing his account with

539
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 2: his name?

540
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 3: He was he he wanted to he wanted to be

541
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: a swinger. But it was interesting because he waited until

542
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 3: after I was pregnant to be like that was part

543
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: of his lifestyle. I think that I don't know he

544
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 3: calls this man his cousin. This man is not related

545
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: to him at all. I don't know what he had

546
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 3: on this man or what was going on there. But

547
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: I know why he didn't have a bank account in

548
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 3: his name. It was because a lot of people were

549
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: trying to sue him. He couldn't have any money in

550
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: his name or else. All other people, all the creditors

551
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 3: and everything. You know, he was basically I forget what

552
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: you call those people. But but like he wanted to

553
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: make himself to the point where he could do whatever

554
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 3: he wanted to people financially because he had stolen money

555
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 3: from people, He had done all sorts of crazy stuff,

556
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: and he just didn't pay a bunch of bills, and

557
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: so he wanted to make himself basically like Sue Proof.

558
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: Man, I'm surprised ain't nobody put him down?

559
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: I mean, uh, it's it is. It is fairly amazing.

560
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: But then if you think about it, like Pete, there's

561
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: a reason people like this don't go after bad people, right, yeah,

562
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: Because if you're gonna go after somebody who's gonna who's

563
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 3: gonna have have the same you know, moral compass as

564
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 3: you obviously mm hmmm, it gets.

565
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: One of those ain't gonna make it right, right, right, And.

566
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: So he knew that he was not, you know, he

567
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 3: didn't he didn't go after people who were going to

568
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: come after him like that.

569
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I also got the sense that you might

570
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: have felt a responsibility to fixed or saved a relationship

571
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: because of society will pray. So I mean, I think,

572
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: like I coud you really try.

573
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 3: I was raised in a in a I was raised

574
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: with Christian culture, where you know, you stay with the

575
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: father of your child, and I think that I certainly

576
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 3: spent a considerable amount of time feeling responsible and worrying

577
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 3: about my son not having a father. I mean, the

578
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: irony is that I'm a single mom by choice now

579
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 3: and like chose my daughters by myself. I have evolved

580
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: in some ways. Not that I don't think men are important.

581
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: I absolutely do think men are important. I think that

582
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: kids need, uh, kids need healthy role models. And I

583
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: think that society's session with children having a mother and

584
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: a father and it is misguided. And you know, you

585
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: look at like Barack Obama, who was raised by a woman,

586
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: became President of the United States, clearly did well for himself.

587
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 3: You look at Kamala Harris, who like never talks about

588
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 3: her dad. I think she mentioned him once, right, there's

589
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 3: a reason for that. She turned out just fine. So

590
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 3: not to say that, like, you know, I think it's

591
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 3: great if people have both parents in their life. But

592
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: I think that in hindsight, I think what I should

593
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: have realized is that this man was toxic. But another

594
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 3: problem that our society has is that the way our

595
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 3: family courts are designed, they aren't looking at making sure

596
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 3: that healthy parents are attached to kids. They're making sure

597
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 3: that parents have the right to be attached to their child,

598
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: regardless of whether or not they're healthy. Yeah, I And

599
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: I also think there was part of me that knew

600
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 3: that too, So I felt like, you know, maybe if

601
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: I save him, maybe if I fix him, you know,

602
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 3: which is one of the most dangerous things that women

603
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 3: do often, I mean people. I mean I've seen men right.

604
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: Thinking you can change someone or fix someone is just

605
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's an exercise and futility.

606
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you make a good point because I feel like,

607
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: as a single woman with no kids, and I do

608
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: desire to have children and you know, hopefully have a

609
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: good man that can be my husband. I feel like

610
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 2: since I'm so focused in trying to do things, you know,

611
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: the right way, that a lot of people judge me,

612
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: and you know, sometimes it does get to me because

613
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: it's like, damn, like all my friends are either you know, married,

614
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: or they have kids and stuff. And I just know

615
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: that what you water will grow, and I water with

616
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: my business. So I feel like when I was reading

617
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: your story, it really resonated with me because I just

618
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: felt like you just wanted love. But yeah, I feel

619
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: like that time and of it, society just really just

620
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: it makes us feel like we're not worthy or we're

621
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: not woman.

622
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 3: And that's hard about it, you know, because like even now,

623
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 3: it's like I don't want to get married because I

624
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 3: have feelings about being financially and legally connected to someone.

625
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 3: But I do want to find a person. I want

626
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 3: to feel chosen. I want I want to partner. Right,

627
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: you're not dated, I that's a whole other can of worms.

628
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I'm much try to get the tea.

629
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: I mean, okay, like I am dating. I I am

630
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 3: dating in the most casual sense of the word. I

631
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: think that the hard part is I think you have

632
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: to be I think you have to be open to

633
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,239
Speaker 3: finding a needle in a haystack. I don't necessarily think

634
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: there's one person for everyone only. It's just that, like

635
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 3: is you have to go through a lot of badats. Yeah,

636
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: And at this point in my life, I'm struggling with

637
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 3: time and you know, trying to make the time between

638
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 3: like my career and my kids and like all the

639
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 3: things I want to do.

640
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: Right, it's a lot.

641
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 3: It's a lot. Uh that said, you know, I am

642
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 3: hopeful that one day. Plus the caveat is like I

643
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: really hate app dating, like really really really hate it,

644
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 3: and I think it killed dating. I really do.

645
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie, so I mean, my listeners know this.

646
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: I join an online app and I would have never

647
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 2: thought at this age that I would be online dating.

648
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: Like I hate it, Like I feel like there's no

649
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: real connection. I feel like the niggas is weird.

650
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 3: I feel like and they like, if I have another man,

651
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 3: text me good morning and that's it.

652
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: I'm in what you're doing.

653
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 3: I know, I'm just gonna like lose my mind. It's

654
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: like I don't know, I'm awake in getting dressed, like

655
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 3: you have nothing else I'm.

656
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: Texting you, right. But then I feel like when I

657
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: go outside, like men wild stare at me, but I

658
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: feel like they never come up to me. I'el like

659
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: they intimidated by me. I feel like once they know

660
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: who I am and like what I do and who

661
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 2: who I'm affiliated with, I got to make sure that

662
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: they have good intentions. Like I just feel like it's

663
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: just so fucking ghetto.

664
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 3: I think the hardest part though, and this is why

665
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 3: I think app dating and internet dating ruined dating, is

666
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 3: that before it existed, people had to talk to each other, right,

667
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 3: And so we've gotten so accustomed to like being trolls

668
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: behind screens and like right not taking you know, just

669
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: like not taking chances and going up to people and

670
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 3: saying hello. And it's hard because, you know, unless you're

671
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 3: in a social setting with someone like work, you know,

672
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 3: your kids' school, whatever, places that you don't necessarily like

673
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 3: want to be dating because if it doesn't go well,

674
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 3: you're sort of right, it gets weird and it gets

675
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: all weird. And so I I I don't know how

676
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 3: to I don't. I don't really know how to put

677
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 3: myself out there at this age, you know, with kids

678
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 3: and with a career and like, you know, not all

679
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: the time in the world unless I go on apps,

680
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 3: and then the apps are just full of just yeah,

681
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 3: you know. And so I every once in a while,

682
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 3: I like dip my toe in the water, and then

683
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 3: I'm just like, hmm, I'm dipping right back out right right.

684
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 2: Right right right now. I feel like you don't. I

685
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 2: feel like, after reading your story, you don't believe in

686
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: an abortion, but I feel like you was kind of

687
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: hesitant when once you found out that you was pregnant.

688
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: I believe an abortion. I don't. I'm I'm very much

689
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: pro choice. Okay, I think that for me, And I

690
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 3: don't know whether I put this in my book. I

691
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 3: can't remember whether or not I mentioned it. I had

692
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 3: had one already.

693
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: Oh no, you didn't put that in your book.

694
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 3: So the first time, my first time was not consensual,

695
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 3: and it resulted in a pregnancy. And I remember even

696
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: back then, and I was pretty young, uh, I mean

697
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 3: I was out of college, but still pretty young. I

698
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: remember thinking to myself, like, you know, I'm I am

699
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: pro choice, but I also like love kids and feel

700
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: very responsible, you know, for like all of my actions

701
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: right when I had it, when I when I had

702
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 3: the non consensual encounter when I was when I was raped.

703
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 3: I also was wise enough to know that, like I

704
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 3: was like, I cannot, I do not think I can

705
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 3: bring a child into this world knowing how it how

706
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 3: it happened, and also like potentially continuously being connected to

707
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: this person I did this thing, and so uh after that,

708
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 3: you know, when when I got pregnant with Prince Uh,

709
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 3: I guess in my head, I was like, this is

710
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 3: not the same situation. I'm old enough and I have,

711
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,919
Speaker 3: you know, a fairly stable career, like I can take

712
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 3: care of this child and like I wasn't. I wasn't

713
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: considering that I wouldn't end up with his dad. Like

714
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 3: at that point, I was like, Okay, it felt to

715
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: me like it would be irresponsible to make that decision.

716
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 3: In hindsight, I should have, right, Like, I love my

717
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 3: son and I'm and I'm grateful that I got to

718
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 3: know him for the fifteen months that I got to

719
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 3: know him. But I think realistically, like if I had

720
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 3: had the option, I never would have wanted him to

721
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 3: have to go through what he went through. Yeah, so,

722
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 3: but I you know, it's like hindsight's twenty twenty, right, Like,

723
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 3: and I think that, you know, part of not making

724
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: the decision to have an abortion was probably also somewhat

725
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 3: trauma based.

726
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was listening to one of your interviews from

727
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 2: a different show and you said that your son shouldn't

728
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: have not been born, and I was like, wow, like

729
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: that was real.

730
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's it's sad, right, and like I

731
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 3: say that just being a complete realist.

732
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

733
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 3: I don't think. I don't think he should have ever

734
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: been conceived, Like I should never have met his dad.

735
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: Hey, you didn't even enjoyed the sex.

736
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 4: One exactly you know, I feel like, what are we

737
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 4: doing here?

738
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: No, it's terrible. It was just it was a terrible

739
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 3: and I think, like, I mean, if you have watched

740
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 3: the like the movie get Out, it was like I

741
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 3: was in the sunken place. I just yeah, there's no

742
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 3: more way to describe it better than like being completely

743
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 3: in a sunken place. And I think it, like, I

744
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 3: think it's hard. It's really hard to describe what it

745
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 3: feels like to be an abusive relationship you haven't been

746
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 3: in one, because I think people are often like I

747
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 3: can't stand when people are like, well you should just left, right,

748
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: Well that's like really sweet and like you know, special

749
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: snowflake of supportive, right, but that's possible, like or that's yeah,

750
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 3: you know, it's like by the time someone shows that

751
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: side of them, it's too late, you know, like just leaving.

752
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, the woman before me tried to just

753
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 3: leave and she's dead, Like yeah, you know, so yeah,

754
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's all. It's also really easy

755
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 3: for people to make assumptions that, you know, just because

756
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 3: of the way someone looks or whatever, that like you're

757
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 3: completely secure, right, because I wasn't.

758
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what was the turning point when things started

759
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: to go wrong.

760
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 3: I mean I think that it was probably when I

761
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 3: got pregnant. I mean I think he just he realized

762
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 3: he had me and he was not wrong, you know,

763
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: And I think that was sort of when the masks

764
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 3: started coming down, and you know, I really just started

765
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 3: I felt like I was chasing the person that I

766
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 3: thought he was in the beginning, and that person's not

767
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: who he was, and so I was like trying to

768
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 3: bring that person back.

769
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I.

770
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: Remember there was this moment where we were in like

771
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 3: a deposition during our court case and he looked at

772
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 3: me and it was like this moment where he was

773
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 3: like trying to get empathy, and I almost threw up

774
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: on him. I was like, how could you try? Like

775
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 3: how could you now like at this point when I

776
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 3: know what I know? And so I turned to him

777
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I know who you are now, so

778
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 3: fucking knock it off, right. And it was funny because

779
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 3: like his face it just like went right back to

780
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,439
Speaker 3: being a monster. It was like he turned it right off.

781
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: And I remember thinking to myself, like, wow, like that

782
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 3: is such like that that is a level of evil talent,

783
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 3: that is if you could bottle it up. You know,

784
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 3: you could probably like be very effective at warfare because

785
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 3: I mean just being able to turn it off just

786
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 3: like that was so so cacary and scary. Yeah, because

787
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 3: you you know, when he was on he I mean

788
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 3: he had people eating out of his hand, and I

789
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: mean I remember what it looked like in court, and

790
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 3: I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, how the hell do

791
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: you believe him? And then I thought to myself, of

792
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 3: course I believed him.

793
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was another part in your story when you

794
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: was I think he was sleeping and you were pregnant

795
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 2: and you felt like you couldn't breathe, and I'm like,

796
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: is this nigga trying to suffocate her?

797
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: I think so I think he was.

798
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he when you woke up, he was standing

799
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 2: over you.

800
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Like it it felt like you know, and I've

801
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 3: had this conversation with his now adult son about what

802
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: it felt like to be in that house, and it

803
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 3: like it felt like one of those like horror movies

804
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 3: where there's like a house of mirrors and you're like

805
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 3: trapped out of hor and you like can't figure out

806
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 3: what is real and what's not, you know, because he

807
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 3: would do things that were just evil and then you know,

808
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 3: like even like the suffocation incident, like I woke up

809
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: and he's hovering over me, and I'm just like what

810
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: the hell man, like uh yeah, and he and he's like, oh,

811
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 3: you must have had a nightmare. Oh, it must have

812
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 3: been your hormones. Like it just and I remember thinking

813
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 3: like I just don't know what's real and what's not real.

814
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 3: Like I felt like I was going crazy?

815
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 2: But how did you not feel like that?

816
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was just it was it was

817
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 3: it was just crazy like it it was a whole

818
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 3: it was a whole crazy Ah, it was a whole

819
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 3: crazy situation. And you know, I think similar to a

820
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 3: lot of abusive situations. You know, like they'll they'll punch

821
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 3: you in the face and then they'll make you think

822
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 3: that like you somehow punched yourself, right, you did some

823
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: where you like, yeah, you fell out his fist, like

824
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,959
Speaker 3: you deserve it or whatever. And I mean, so it's

825
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 3: I think back to that time and I'm just like,

826
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: you know, and it's interesting because it's like I feel

827
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 3: like it was a different lifetime. I feel like I

828
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 3: was a different person. I know that I'm like the

829
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 3: essence of me right, like the essence of me is

830
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 3: the same. But I feel I feel like I just

831
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 3: feel like I feel woke, right, I feel.

832
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: Like I am you found yourself.

833
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 3: I also like I understand the world. I feel like

834
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 3: I understand the world in a way that I never

835
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 3: could have imagined pre him, and I think it's impossible.

836
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 3: Like I think sometimes I'm like, Okay, did I did

837
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 3: growing up in this like sheltered Christian community like harm

838
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 3: me in some way because I didn't see this part

839
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 3: of the world, like even from I don't know if

840
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 3: I put this in the book, but like I remember

841
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 3: being in elementary school and then bringing police officers in

842
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 3: and being like they're here to help you and this

843
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 3: and that and the third right, and like that's not

844
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: what I tell my kids, Like sorry all police officers, right,

845
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 3: But like what I'm trying my kid is, if you

846
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 3: ever need help, you call me, right, because it might

847
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 3: be dangerous for you to call the police because they

848
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: might get there and they may actually not be on

849
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 3: your side. And it's like, yeah, harsh reality, but it's

850
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 3: but it's real, right, Like when you start thinking about

851
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 3: like the way our systems work, and I guess like

852
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 3: in some ways it's scary, you know, because like the.

853
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: But it's a reality.

854
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 3: It's the reality, right, So I feel like I'm I

855
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 3: feel like it's impossible to survive a situation like that

856
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 3: and still walk around like somebody who doesn't know what's

857
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 3: going on in the world, you know, like it just

858
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 3: starts to make you question, like okay, like what are

859
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 3: all these things for?

860
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: Right? But I also feel like given that you was

861
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: a CIA agent, I feel like your expectations of the

862
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 2: legal system is of course is going to be high

863
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 2: because of you technically is a part of that world.

864
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: No, I mean FBI is like their law enforcement, but like.

865
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 2: I still like you still have some type of dealings

866
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: with them, right, I.

867
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 3: Mean yes, and no, Like I think it's different though,

868
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 3: Like I think that you know, a lot of my

869
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 3: job was was around like researching like international threats, right right,

870
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 3: And that's like or like international threat intelligence and things

871
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: like that. Like that's that's very different than like homegrown terrorism,

872
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 3: right right. Like I think that's yeah, Like I I

873
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 3: I just I think it is a very it's it's

874
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 3: a very unique situation to be keenly aware of the

875
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 3: type of crime that occurs on our home soil, like

876
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 3: I was not trained in that, right, Like I wasn't

877
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 3: trained to be looking for it like right, you know.

878
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 3: And and I also so it like it wasn't enough

879
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 3: of my experience to even be thinking that it was

880
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 3: at my front door. Yeah, and I and I also

881
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 3: don't know. I mean I I don't I honestly don't

882
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 3: know how you prepare you know, kids, kids for that.

883
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I think I'm hopeful that I can talk

884
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 3: to my kids about my experience without trying to transfer

885
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 3: anxiety onto them just to be like, hey, like you

886
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 3: you can't trust people, right, Yeah. But I mean I

887
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 3: say this knowing that even after my ex like I

888
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 3: you know.

889
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 2: I've I've had trust your gut, trust.

890
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 3: Your gut, right like I But I think, Yeah, I

891
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 3: mean it's not it's not just romantic relationships either, you know.

892
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: Oh no, definitely platonic too, Yeah, like you know, bitches

893
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: be weird.

894
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 3: I had a former business partner that turned out to

895
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 3: be like completely horrible. Yeah, and so it's like you

896
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 3: just I don't know, like we we all continue to

897
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 3: make mistakes or whatever, and people continue to do this thing.

898
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 3: But I do think that I think that with this

899
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 3: level of trauma. It's like it's it's hard to go

900
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 3: back to like that kind of like naive. You know, no,

901
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 3: you can't go back happy person, not necessarily, not like

902
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 3: I'm a very happy person, but like I think, I'm

903
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 3: just I'm just aware of how the world really is,

904
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 3: which maybe makes me cynical and perhaps why I'm single.

905
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: But I also think, I mean, given the journey that

906
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: you've been on, I think it's normal for you to

907
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 2: feel this way because what you've been through would have

908
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 2: broke a lot of people, like you don't look like

909
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:40,720
Speaker 2: what you've been through.

910
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad about that.

911
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, because what you've been through was a lot. Because

912
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 2: even thank God for your dad because when y'all discovered

913
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 2: that your ex raped your sister, and I have never

914
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: wanted your dad to like like pop off on him

915
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: because I was I could not believe that that was

916
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 2: the next part of the story.

917
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 3: I actually am very thankful that he didn't kill him

918
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 3: that night.

919
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: Because because I couldn't imagine.

920
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 4: I think that would have been terrible and it it

921
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 4: just I mean I think that I don't know, it

922
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 4: would have been heartbreaking, it would have been terrible, and

923
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 4: it would have ruined many people's lives, and.

924
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't.

925
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 2: I I'm just glad he was there because I also

926
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 2: feel like, if you didn't have your dad presence, I

927
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 2: think that your ex probably would have tried it even more.

928
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 3: Oh, I think so too. I think he was Yeh,

929
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 3: I think he. I think he thought my dad was

930
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 3: going to I think he thought my dad was capable

931
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 3: of killing him.

932
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so.

933
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, I've said I've said this

934
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 3: to his older son before. I'm like, you know, fifty

935
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 3: percent of the people who lived with this man in

936
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 3: his adult life are dead. We're the lad We're the

937
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 3: only two that survived.

938
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the son barely survived.

939
00:49:58,400 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

940
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 3: Like, I mean, he literally is like the boy who lived. Like,

941
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know, It's it's crazy. I think

942
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 3: that though, Like I think choosing to survive. And I've

943
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 3: known a lot of people who've gone through really terrible

944
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 3: things and and similarly terrible things like people who've who've

945
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 3: had I've met a lot of people who've who've who've

946
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 3: had children murdered by their ex.

947
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: Right.

948
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 3: Sadly, it's a club that no one ever wants to

949
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 3: be in, but we're in it, Okay, And what I

950
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 3: typically tell people is, I'm like, it's a choice to

951
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 3: keep living. It's a choice to decide that you're going

952
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 3: to live your best life. And if you if you

953
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 3: decide like if you if you can't get past it,

954
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 3: or you like you know, continue living in that misery,

955
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 3: understand that that's also a choice. Right. I think sometimes

956
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 3: people choose to remain a victim, Like, yeah, they don't

957
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 3: want to get out of it. They don't they feel

958
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 3: like sort of some some sort of comfort in that

959
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 3: or what have you? For me, Like, I choose to

960
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 3: live my best life because I know that that's the

961
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 3: only way my son keeps living. Like if I chose that,

962
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 3: like I could have also chosen to die with him, right, Yeah,

963
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 3: but I think if that if I had done that,

964
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 3: then he would have then he then there'd be no

965
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 3: part of him that was still living. And and also

966
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 3: like I think I think that in many ways, like

967
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 3: my ex, it would be it winning for him, right.

968
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 3: But yeah, he wanted to destroy my life. He wanted

969
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 3: to destroy me, and he didn't succeed.

970
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 2: Now, when you hired the private investigator, what was some

971
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: of the things that you found out on top of

972
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 2: him kill and to other people.

973
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 3: I mean business had stolen money from multiple people. You know.

974
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 3: He had changed his name to his son's. Oh that's

975
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 3: I didn't even put that in the book because it

976
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 3: was hard to explain. So six months before his ex

977
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 3: girlfriend died, the mom of his older son, he changed

978
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 3: his name to his son's name, and then when she died,

979
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 3: tried to claim that her life insurance policy was for

980
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 3: him and not for her son. Wow. Yeah, it was crazy,

981
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: like when you like when I when I read, when

982
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 3: I poured through all the information because part of like

983
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 3: taking a decade to write the book was like I

984
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 3: wanted to be the reason it took so long, is

985
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 3: like I wanted to hold myself accountable. I wanted to

986
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,919
Speaker 3: make sure I told the story in an authentic way,

987
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 3: and I also wanted to make sure that I, like

988
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 3: got the facts right.

989
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: So I was.

990
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 3: Pouring through all this data trying to make sure that,

991
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 3: like I had the chain of events and like all

992
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 3: the things that happened, and it was just crazy, like

993
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 3: and just looking at the autopsy reports from his own mom,

994
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 3: like you can't suffocate yourself to death, right, Like the

995
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 3: bag was not tied to her head, It wasn't like

996
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 3: you know, like you if you press a bag to

997
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 3: your head, you will pass out and then you will

998
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 3: start breathing, right, So like it's actually physically impossible to

999
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 3: kill yourself the way that they said she killed herself.

1000
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

1001
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 3: And I have since had police officers tell me that

1002
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 3: her suicide note and I put that in quotation marks

1003
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 3: was not in her handwriting. Yeah, And I'm like they

1004
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 3: had all of this and like, why did no one

1005
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 3: charge him with that?

1006
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:40,919
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1007
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 2: Even when y'all went to the police and you told

1008
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 2: them about the situation with your sister, And I'm like

1009
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 2: the fact that they charge y'all yeah because they thought

1010
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 2: you was lying. And I'm like, where is this, Like

1011
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:52,919
Speaker 2: where are y'all at? Because this cannot be real.

1012
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 3: It was like, I mean, it was literally like the

1013
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 3: Twilight Zone, right, And you know, I was just telling

1014
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 3: someone today they were like, oh, oh yeah, I know,

1015
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 3: like I dated someone from Gainesville, Virginia, which is Prince

1016
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 3: William County, And I was like, man, they can cut

1017
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 3: Prince William County off of the out of the United States,

1018
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 3: let it float off to sea, and I would be like, peace,

1019
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 3: what's going on in that county? But it is like

1020
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 3: I mean just I know that in our country we

1021
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 3: refuse to believe that women get raped. It happens a lot.

1022
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 3: And frank, yeah, like back to what I said earlier

1023
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 3: with the little boys on the playground, Like I think

1024
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 3: we have this tendency to be like boys will be boys,

1025
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 3: and they that's just how they are. And like, what

1026
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 3: did you do to like make him want to rape

1027
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 3: you or whatever? And so like, I know that it

1028
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 3: is common for police not to prosecute rapes or people

1029
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,800
Speaker 3: not to believe women. But when someone like this comes

1030
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 3: in and you know that he's killed multiple people, you

1031
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 3: know they knew who he was in this town. And

1032
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 3: I remember a police officer saying like, yeah, he's not

1033
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 3: a good guy, but he's not rapist. And I'm like,

1034
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 3: are you kidding? Like so what he's a killer but

1035
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 3: not capable of rape? Like come on, and.

1036
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 2: Why would you supposed to lie about that?

1037
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 3: She wouldn't. It's crazy, Like the whole situation is is

1038
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: is crazy. It's just crazy. But but they also thought

1039
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 3: I was lying. They were like, oh, that never happened.

1040
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 3: I'm like, I have two witnesses, Like two witnesses, and

1041
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,760
Speaker 3: if my son could speak, he'd be a third.

1042
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 2: Do you think that if you weren't black, that the

1043
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 2: alcohol would be different.

1044
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 3: I think about that a lot, and I think perhaps,

1045
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 3: you know, I do think that I do think racism

1046
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 3: played a part both in what happened with us with

1047
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 3: the police and what happened in family court. I do

1048
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 3: think it played a part. But I also think that

1049
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 3: you can't ignore just how this police department acted and

1050
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:07,839
Speaker 3: and the lengths that they went to to sort of

1051
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 3: like cover up their misbehavior.

1052
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 2: To protect them.

1053
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you know it, it leads me to wonder, Look,

1054
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 3: my accident kill people who weren't black. We all had

1055
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 3: something in common, right, And so I think I think

1056
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 3: there is something to that, right, Like he didn't date people,

1057
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 3: he didn't date women that weren't black. And I think that,

1058
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,439
Speaker 3: you know, even though he liked to walk around saying

1059
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 3: he was Dominican, motherfucker, was not Dominican, like he was

1060
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 3: white Puerto Rican.

1061
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 2: He was white Porto Rican. Because I google him, I'm like, yo,

1062
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 2: he's not right.

1063
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 3: And when when it came down to it, and it

1064
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 3: was his word against mine, you know, And I think

1065
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 3: that was another thing that that made me that I

1066
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 3: have learned I think, you know, as as black people,

1067
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 3: we have a tendency to like, you know, kind of

1068
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: like try to wear our degrees as like like like like.

1069
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 2: A badge of honor.

1070
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, or it's gonna protect you from something, right, right, right,

1071
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 3: So I I thought I had the misguided idea that

1072
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,879
Speaker 3: because I'm educated and because I had a good job

1073
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 3: and all this stuff, that somehow I could like come

1074
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 3: into a police station and be believed. I think at

1075
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 3: the end of the day, like we cannot wipe our

1076
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 3: blackness from our skin. Yeah, it's like you can. You

1077
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 3: can have a whole you know, like you can you

1078
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 3: can drape yourselves in your diploma, and that's not going

1079
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 3: to protect you because it doesn't it doesn't matter. Like

1080
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 3: when they look at you, they see a black person,

1081
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 3: a black person, right and like and and so you know,

1082
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 3: but then again, like I can't. I do think that

1083
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 3: there was something with my ex and the police. There's

1084
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 3: too many people in the system that have told me

1085
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 3: that there's something with my ex and the police. I

1086
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 3: think it got to a point if I hadn't gone

1087
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 3: to the media and blown it up, I don't think

1088
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 3: he would have ever gotten arrested, even for killing my son.

1089
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 3: I think they would have been like, oh, you know,

1090
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 3: he died of natural causes and just like brush it

1091
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 3: under the carpet.

1092
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 2: Listen, I'm not gonna lie. When I was reading a

1093
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,439
Speaker 2: story and I felt like you were starting to find

1094
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: your voice, I was like, come on, that's what I'm

1095
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 2: talking about, Like you was not playing, and I was

1096
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 2: just so proud and so happy for you because it

1097
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 2: was evident from where we first started in the beginning

1098
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: of your book to where we at towards the end

1099
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: or even now, like you really stood up for yourself

1100
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 2: and you wasn't afraid no more.

1101
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I had nothing to lose at that point.

1102
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 3: Like that's why I told people. I tell people all

1103
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 3: the time, I'm like, I am the system's worst nightmare because.

1104
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 2: My because you was giving them hell.

1105
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 3: Right, So I'm like, you can you can say or

1106
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 3: do whatever you want. I'm not going to be in

1107
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 3: family court. And that's one of the reasons I had

1108
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 3: my kids via donor, because yeah, I feel like I

1109
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 3: can't be quiet. I feel like part of parenting my

1110
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 3: son is continuing to speak out about this, and I

1111
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 3: think if I had to worry that like one day

1112
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 3: my kids could be in family court again. Even if

1113
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 3: I like loved the person and thought they were great,

1114
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 3: like I think, there would always be this fear in

1115
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 3: the back of my mind, like, oh my gosh, what

1116
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 3: if this happens, if this happens again? Right, And so yeah,

1117
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 3: now I'm at the point where I'm just like, you

1118
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 3: know what, I can say whatever because I'm not in

1119
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 3: that system anymore and I'm not gonna be.

1120
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you share how much you into the pain

1121
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 2: and legal fees throughout the entire party?

1122
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:27,959
Speaker 3: It was like a little bit more than one hundred

1123
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 3: and fifty thousand, because it was a lot. It was

1124
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 3: a lot. I felt like, I mean, I'm thankful that

1125
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 3: my parents, you know, my parents let us live with them,

1126
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 3: which was you know, I don't know how, I don't

1127
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 3: know how I would have like afforded to to rent

1128
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 3: anywhere because I was using my entire salary towards legal

1129
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 3: fees and and I liquidated all of my four one

1130
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 3: K and all that stuff. Yeah, just because I was like,

1131
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 3: I can't I can't not fight, you know, like I

1132
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 3: have to, And and these attorneys, I mean, they're like,

1133
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 3: you know, two hundred and fifty to four hundred thousand

1134
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 3: dollars a year, yeah, or I'm sorry, two hundred and

1135
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 3: fifty to four hundred dollars an hour. And so when

1136
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 3: you like what people don't realize, like even sending your

1137
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,959
Speaker 3: attorney an email, they'll charge you a half an hour

1138
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:25,919
Speaker 3: just to read the email. So like, think about every

1139
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 3: time you send an email. That's like two hundred dollars

1140
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 3: right there, and it just it adds up. You know,

1141
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 3: it's like it's so expensive.

1142
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 2: But you also made a good point in your book

1143
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 2: about the importanness of having a therapist, so you can

1144
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 2: avoid all those fees.

1145
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 3: Oh totally. And I think I made a lot of

1146
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 3: mistakes early on because I was so I mean I

1147
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 3: was just like a walking trauma bond or a walking

1148
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 3: trauma bomb. You know, It's like I would just I

1149
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 3: would just pour out everywhere, and you know, I really

1150
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 3: really people need to separate, like that is your attorney,

1151
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 3: and you need to have a therapist for you, you know,

1152
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 3: to kind of process what you've been through because if

1153
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 3: you try, you know, look, your attorney will let you.

1154
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 3: They'll just be like sure, I'll charge you four hundred

1155
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 3: dollars to keep talking.

1156
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 2: But they didn't even do nothing it's like, where's the

1157
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: integrity yet, I.

1158
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 3: Don't know, like that's part of but see that's part

1159
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 3: of I think that if we took the money out

1160
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 3: of family court, I think kids would be safer anything.

1161
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 3: People in the system don't want to hear that, right,

1162
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 3: But it should never come down to like how much

1163
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 3: money someone has to be able to protect the kids, right,

1164
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 3: because it sets up a system of inequity, and it

1165
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 3: also it it puts people in the game with false motivations, right,

1166
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 3: So like they let him go pick his own therapist

1167
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 3: to give his psychological datls crazy, and so he picks

1168
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 3: this woman who's not even licensed, right, And it's like

1169
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 3: I feel like people are just you can pay these

1170
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 3: people to say whatever the whatever you want. And if

1171
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 3: you had licensed therapists that worked for the courts that

1172
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 3: didn't have like you know, skin in the game for

1173
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 3: like honesty, and you take the money out of it,

1174
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 3: like you take the private money out of it, it

1175
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 3: becomes like a more equitable process and it becomes more

1176
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 3: authentic because you aren't going to have a situation where

1177
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 3: someone's like, oh, I'm going to say this because they

1178
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 3: paid me, And now I feel weird about like you know,

1179
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 3: calling him.

1180
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: So path Yeah. Throughout the custody battle, you advocated so

1181
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 2: strongly for supervised visits, as if your spirit knew something

1182
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 2: terrible was going to happen. Did you ever feel like

1183
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 2: a deeper, deeper, spiritual intuition guiding you, warning you for

1184
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 2: what's to come? Because I feel like when I was

1185
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 2: reading that part about your son and like you was

1186
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 2: going so hard, Like it's like you kind of knew that.

1187
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 2: I knew you were preparing. Yeah, I knew.

1188
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 3: I remember. So when they lifted the supervised visitation, I

1189
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 3: called an organization called Child Justice and I and I

1190
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 3: and the first thing I said to them is, I

1191
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 3: think he's going to try to kill him. I need

1192
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 3: to try to appeal this. And I'm fortunately my son

1193
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 3: never lived long enough for us to do an appeal, right.

1194
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, I think it's like, how

1195
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 3: could you not worry about that after learning all that

1196
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 3: I learned, you know, And I mean I remember this,

1197
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 3: this supervised visitation provider. She was like, oh, do you

1198
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 3: think he has a policy on him?

1199
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 2: And I thought that was crazy.

1200
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 3: I was like, why would you say that unless you

1201
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 3: know something?

1202
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 2: Right?

1203
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 3: And I remember calling like I called insurance companies asking,

1204
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 3: and the reality at the end of the day is

1205
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 3: unless you have the policy number, you can't get that information.

1206
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 3: And the fact that he said that I was dead,

1207
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 3: you know, and no one checked, Like these insurance companies

1208
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 3: just took out like hundreds of thousands of dollars on

1209
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 3: my son under this false reality that I was dead,

1210
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 3: and I didn't even get a right to know, because like,

1211
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 3: if I had known, I could have taken that to police.

1212
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 3: Not to say that they would have done anything, because.

1213
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 2: But here's the motive.

1214
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, but at least it would have been clear,

1215
01:03:58,400 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 3: like I could have taken it to the court to

1216
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 3: be like like, hey, look like you know, we see

1217
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 3: here two other people who he killed for life insurance policy,

1218
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 3: or at least we suspected, and now he's got a

1219
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 3: policy on him. Like I mean, I wish I hadn't

1220
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 3: had that information because at the end of the day,

1221
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 3: like having a suspicion isn't going to be something that

1222
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 3: holds up in court. And I didn't find out about

1223
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 3: the policies until two weeks after he died and the

1224
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 3: police gave it me.

1225
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 2: Wow, is there a place for forgiveness in your journey?

1226
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 2: And then so what does that look like just with

1227
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 2: the and not just with your ex but just with

1228
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 2: the people who were supposed to partake good questions.

1229
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 3: So I remember right after I think I put this

1230
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 3: in the book. Actually, so like right after my son died,

1231
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 3: I remember being at the funeral and I was talking

1232
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 3: to the priest and I said to him, I said,

1233
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 3: I don't understand the I don't understand how somebody could

1234
01:04:57,800 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 3: like I hate when people say, oh, you should forgive,

1235
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 3: you should forgive, and like somehow it's like gonna set

1236
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 3: you free, right right, And so he said something was

1237
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 3: really wise and he was like, forgiveness should be should

1238
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 3: be only for people who have the capacity or understanding

1239
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 3: what they did wrong and truly feeling something about it. Right,

1240
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 3: And so he was like, right now you're angry, and

1241
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 3: he was like, you hold on to that anger, because

1242
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 3: it's that anger that's going to get you justice. And

1243
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 3: I appreciated him so much because I made the assumption that, like,

1244
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 3: because he was a man of God, he would be

1245
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 3: like you have to forgive and he's like, fuck that, right,

1246
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 3: like goes it is not like he was like it's

1247
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 3: a waste of your energy, because he was like, look

1248
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 3: forgive yourself, right, But like, if I think my ex

1249
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 3: is useless for me to ever even think about, like

1250
01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 3: spending the energy required to even consider what forgiveness of

1251
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 3: him would look like, I do feel bad for him, right,

1252
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 3: There is a part of me that like it is

1253
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 3: sad for him because I think somebody who is incapable

1254
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 3: of connecting to even his own son, that's just a

1255
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 3: that's a very sad human condition, right, Yeah, And so

1256
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 3: I do feel bad for him. I think his mental

1257
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 3: capacity or whatever was going on in his head, that's

1258
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:28,479
Speaker 3: just that's a sad existence. I don't forgive him because

1259
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 3: I just don't think he's capable, Like I don't think

1260
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 3: he is. I don't think his brain is capable for

1261
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 3: to really have like attrition for what he did. So

1262
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:40,439
Speaker 3: I think that's never gonna happen. As far as other

1263
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 3: people in the system, I think I think I would

1264
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 3: have forgiveness, but it would require what the priest said, right,

1265
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 3: he would It would require them to acknowledge the harm

1266
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 3: that they did and actually do something to work towards

1267
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 3: making sure that doesn't happen again. And I haven't received

1268
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 3: that from anyone in the process, And so I think

1269
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 3: like that is something that for me, it would be

1270
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 3: required to extend that, like I can think about like,

1271
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 3: for example, the judge, I think in many ways he.

1272
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 2: Was, Oh he was disgusting, Oh he was.

1273
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 3: He was.

1274
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,479
Speaker 2: He was a fucker, Like yeah, a piece of shit,

1275
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 2: Like oh the way he talks to y'all in that

1276
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 2: coom was.

1277
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 3: And he's never he has never apologized publicly or privately,

1278
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 3: has never apologized. He's talking to he's talked to third

1279
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 3: parties and I've heard back from him. He retired after

1280
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 3: like you know, he resigned or whatever. But like I'm like,

1281
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 3: you know, if you can't be man enough to just

1282
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 3: say I'm sorry, even privately, right right, nothing said has

1283
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 3: said zero words to me since my son died. And

1284
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 3: so I'm like, do I forgive him? No, because even

1285
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 3: though this is a man who goes to church every Sunday, right,

1286
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 3: I don't think I think he is. I think he's

1287
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 3: a lost cause you know, like if he if he look,

1288
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:03,920
Speaker 3: he's gonna have to be on his deathbed, he's gonna

1289
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:04,919
Speaker 3: have to go and deal with.

1290
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 2: His own like, you know, he know he fucked up.

1291
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 3: Though of course he knew he fucked up, I'm just

1292
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 3: saying that, Like, I would like to believe that if

1293
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 3: I had committed the same atrocity, I would at least

1294
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 3: have the decency to say, I'm sorry for right, I'm

1295
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 3: sorry for what I said to you, I'm sorry for

1296
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 3: how this turned out, I'm.

1297
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 2: Sorry how I made you feel.

1298
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 3: Right, Because like, really, at the end of the day,

1299
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 3: I can't sue him. He's completely unsuable. Right, So it's like,

1300
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:38,680
Speaker 3: what are you gonna lose by just being decent and

1301
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 3: saying I'm sorry, right?

1302
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 2: But how can we hold the legal system accountable? Because unfortunately,

1303
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 2: your story is very common. So what can we do,

1304
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 2: especially in the family course? Because the one good thing

1305
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 2: about your book is you definitely gave a playbook on

1306
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 2: this is what you need to do and avoid when

1307
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 2: it comes to being a family course.

1308
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's I had two reasons for writing

1309
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:03,760
Speaker 3: the book. One of them is I wanted to write

1310
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 3: the book that I needed while I was going through

1311
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 3: it and to I wanted to give a playbook for

1312
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:12,559
Speaker 3: you know, people who want who want to understand all

1313
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 3: the things that are wrong and want to make changes.

1314
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 3: You know, I really think that there are so many things,

1315
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 3: there are so many things that can be done on

1316
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 3: the state level. I think many of the laws that

1317
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 3: need to change are the state level. But I also

1318
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:32,560
Speaker 3: think the federal government needs to take a stand because

1319
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 3: I think that what's happening to kids in this country

1320
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 3: is one of the biggest civil rights crisises since the

1321
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 3: Civil Rights movement with black people, and I think the

1322
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:45,680
Speaker 3: sad reality is that kids can't vote, and so politicians

1323
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,680
Speaker 3: aren't thinking about the kids. They're thinking about making parents happy, right,

1324
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 3: And so what I think the federal government needs to

1325
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 3: take a stand on is I think they need to

1326
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 3: hold states accountable for not having child protective policies in place.

1327
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 3: And there are ways to do it. We've done it before,

1328
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 3: like when you didn't integrate the schools, the federal government

1329
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 3: was like, well, okay, we won't pave your roads, right, right,

1330
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 3: And so there are ways that the federal government can

1331
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 3: hold the states accountable. They just choose not to. And

1332
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 3: I think that it's gotten to a point where I

1333
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:18,639
Speaker 3: think as society, you know, I say this all the time,

1334
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 3: that so many people choose to ignore this because they're like, well,

1335
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 3: I don't have a kid in family court, and my

1336
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 3: kid is safe and fine but what I always say is, like,

1337
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 3: what happens when that kid who's been terrorized for the

1338
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,519
Speaker 3: last sixteen years knocks on your door and wants to

1339
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 3: take your daughter to prom? Yeah, right now, it's your problem.

1340
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 3: And we don't live in a bubble, you know. It's

1341
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 3: like you work with these people, you encounter them at

1342
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:48,120
Speaker 3: the grocery store. And so I really think we need

1343
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 3: to as a society invest in protecting our kids. And

1344
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 3: the way we do that is instead of thinking about

1345
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 3: parental rights and how much time a parent should get,

1346
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 3: I think we really need to think about, like what

1347
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:03,680
Speaker 3: is in the best interest of child safety, especially when

1348
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 3: there's like a safety risk at play, Like no kid

1349
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,959
Speaker 3: is going to die by having to have supervised visitation

1350
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:15,799
Speaker 3: with their like you know, derelict parent. Like it's like, okay,

1351
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 3: they get access to this person. Like I was not

1352
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 3: fighting Prince getting to know this man. I just wanted

1353
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 3: to make sure that it was in a safe environment

1354
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 3: and that he wasn't going to be able to kill him.

1355
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:28,600
Speaker 3: Because realistically, like you know, Prince could have been in

1356
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 3: supervised visitation for his entire childhood and he would have

1357
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 3: been just fine. He probably would have eventually figured out

1358
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 3: his dad was effing crazy, right, but he wouldn't have

1359
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 3: been dead, right.

1360
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:43,040
Speaker 2: Do you ever think about what your life will look

1361
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:44,759
Speaker 2: like if he was still if he was still alive.

1362
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 3: I do, And it's really hard because I often wonder

1363
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:53,599
Speaker 3: if there was a world in which both he and

1364
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 3: my daughters could exist, which is a really hard thing

1365
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 3: to think about. Like I wish there was, Like I

1366
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 3: sometimes think about, like, you know, would they be fighting

1367
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,640
Speaker 3: with him? Would would my oldest be like, ah, like

1368
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 3: Princes coming into my room again and like being annoying

1369
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,800
Speaker 3: and be like, ah, she stole my computer or whatever, like,

1370
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:17,040
Speaker 3: you know, I would love to imagine that world, but

1371
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 3: I think the you know, the sad reality is I

1372
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 3: also cannot imagine a scenario in which that was sustainable

1373
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 3: because I think that my ex was so deranged, you

1374
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,519
Speaker 3: know that I don't know. It feels very much like

1375
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 3: Prince never had a chance, which is part of the

1376
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:40,560
Speaker 3: reason I go back to like he should never have

1377
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 3: been born, because I think that it was horrible to

1378
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 3: put him through that. Like I would like to believe

1379
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 3: that I gave him the best life possible, but I

1380
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 3: also am realistic enough to know that I was not

1381
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,640
Speaker 3: the best version of myself for him, Like, yeah, my

1382
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:57,640
Speaker 3: daughters see a very different mom. Like I am a

1383
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 3: better mom to them because I can be because I'm

1384
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 3: not you know, Like I think what's hard is like

1385
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 3: when you're in this like heightened state of a cute trauma,

1386
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,200
Speaker 3: you can never heal from it, right, because you're constantly

1387
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 3: in it. And yeah, for his yeah, like for his

1388
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,120
Speaker 3: entire life. I was afraid that he was going to

1389
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 3: die and I and I was like, I think back

1390
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 3: to like the moments that I was on an email

1391
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 3: or a phone with an attorney and not spending time

1392
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 3: with him, and I'm like, gosh, I wish I could

1393
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 3: have those moments back because it didn't matter, you know,

1394
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:33,080
Speaker 3: like it's still ended up the way it ended up,

1395
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 3: and I would have anything to like hug him again.

1396
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 3: And and I don't have the you know, I don't

1397
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 3: have that opportunities, not here anymore.

1398
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,760
Speaker 2: Do you still keep in contact with his older brother?

1399
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 3: I do. Yeah, he is a great kid. I mean

1400
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 3: he's a guy now, so I can't call him kid.

1401
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,559
Speaker 2: And I'm always he's a man now, right, I'm always

1402
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 2: going to.

1403
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:56,280
Speaker 3: See him as a ten year old. I don't care

1404
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 3: how old I told him this before. I'm like, look,

1405
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 3: you're ten. I know you're twenty five, but you're ten.

1406
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:08,960
Speaker 3: You know, I think I I want the best for him,

1407
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 3: and you know, I tell him a lot, like you know,

1408
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 3: you're I call him Mysuno because he.

1409
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 2: Was like my your first son, Like.

1410
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 3: I feel like he's the kid that you know I

1411
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 3: I he made he made me feel like a mom,

1412
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 3: which was also really hard because I think my attachment

1413
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 3: to him made it harder for me to leave his

1414
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:34,640
Speaker 3: dad when I should have, because I couldn't take him

1415
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:36,479
Speaker 3: with me. I mean, even in the end, it was

1416
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:40,080
Speaker 3: a decision where I was like, I can't save him,

1417
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:42,719
Speaker 3: but I can try to save Prince. But it's still,

1418
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:44,760
Speaker 3: you know, it's still weighs on me having had to

1419
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 3: make to make that decision to leave.

1420
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 2: What do you hope that he takes away from this journey.

1421
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 3: For my book or just the journey?

1422
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:58,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I think just overall, because I wanted to.

1423
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 2: Does he ever talk to you about how he he

1424
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 2: thought it?

1425
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think it's I mean I think that I

1426
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 3: can't even imagine what it would be like to be

1427
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:10,680
Speaker 3: a kid in that environment, right, And I think right,

1428
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 3: I think he has a lot more to unpack than

1429
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 3: even me, because I think what is hard is that

1430
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I think even dealing with him,

1431
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 3: like I've realized, kids want to love their parents. Yeah,

1432
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 3: no matter what, they want to love their parents. Which

1433
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 3: is why I think this whole Like when people say

1434
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 3: parental alienation, I'm like, that's bullshit. Like kids want to

1435
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,600
Speaker 3: love their parents. So if you're if your kid is

1436
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 3: telling you something about a parent that's negative, like trust them.

1437
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 3: So I think that what's hard is that it's still

1438
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:50,360
Speaker 3: his dad, right, Yeah, you know, he's he's certainly aware

1439
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:52,200
Speaker 3: that his dad is who he is, and he's not

1440
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 3: you know, he doesn't have rose colored glasses to think

1441
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 3: that he didn't do what he did, right, But I

1442
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:02,640
Speaker 3: think it's a very different struggle, you know, And I

1443
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 3: would have had it with my own son, right, Like

1444
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 3: if Prince had survived, I think that there is there

1445
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 3: is something he would have carried knowing that this person

1446
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 3: who was capable and who had like perpetrated such such

1447
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 3: terrible things on people was related to him, you know. Yeah,

1448
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think you know, he's he's going to

1449
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:29,640
Speaker 3: have a lifelong struggle with with that. When I I

1450
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 3: gave him a copy of the book, and before I

1451
01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:33,640
Speaker 3: gave it to him, I said to him, I was like,

1452
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,479
Speaker 3: I want you to protect your peace. I'm getting you

1453
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 3: this because I love you, and I want and I

1454
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:39,880
Speaker 3: want you to have it, and I want you to

1455
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 3: like have the opportunity to one day like read what

1456
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:48,640
Speaker 3: I what I what I felt during that situation. But

1457
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 3: I also, you know, want you to know that if

1458
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 3: you don't read it, it's going to be okay, Like

1459
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 3: if you and and and to be conscious of how

1460
01:16:56,600 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 3: you're feeling, because I think it's very different for him

1461
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 3: him having lived his own version of it. Yeah, you know,

1462
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:10,080
Speaker 3: and he was super little. I mean he was only ten. Yeah.

1463
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:12,880
Speaker 3: And seeing my oldest right now, who's ten, Like, I mean,

1464
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 3: I cannot imagine her having to kind of deal with

1465
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 3: all that.

1466
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:22,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're almost finished. But one of the most beautiful

1467
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 2: things that you said about your son, Prince, I don't

1468
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 2: know if I've read it or you said it in

1469
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 2: one of your interviews, but you said, even at fifteen

1470
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:32,479
Speaker 2: months old, he was able to do something impactful, which

1471
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,599
Speaker 2: was he was able to stop a serial killer. Yeah,

1472
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:38,680
Speaker 2: I mean, and I thought that was so beautiful. I

1473
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, I think that.

1474
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I have long held the belief that our

1475
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:47,639
Speaker 3: kids find us, and so I talk to parents about

1476
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 3: this all the time, you know, parents who are like

1477
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:51,479
Speaker 3: struggling to have kids or parents who have lost a kid,

1478
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:54,559
Speaker 3: and I'm like, you know, I think they find us. Yeah,

1479
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 3: and you know, either via adoption or whatever, like they

1480
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,680
Speaker 3: find us. And I think that my son came here

1481
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:03,800
Speaker 3: for a reason. I think he chose me because he

1482
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:07,400
Speaker 3: was like, this woman is not gonna stop, right, She's

1483
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 3: gonna do what needs to be done. And yeah, I'm

1484
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:12,639
Speaker 3: gonna put a finish to this man, and I'm gonna

1485
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:16,040
Speaker 3: do it where nobody can say that like I did anything,

1486
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:19,719
Speaker 3: because I'm just a kid, right, And so I didn't

1487
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:21,720
Speaker 3: feel very strongly that he chose me and he came

1488
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 3: for a reason, you know, Prince, I still wish that

1489
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:31,600
Speaker 3: maybe you had chosen someone else or like, thank you

1490
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:37,040
Speaker 3: for this honor. But it also, you know, helps me

1491
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 3: feel like he chose I feel like he had a

1492
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 3: part in choosing my daughters to come to me, and

1493
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 3: so like it makes me feel like connected. It makes

1494
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:48,160
Speaker 3: me feel like there's someone also connected to him, which

1495
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 3: is which is special and powerful and yeah, I mean

1496
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:53,680
Speaker 3: he was he was the boy that finally, you know,

1497
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 3: put this man behind bars. And I have to believe,

1498
01:18:56,680 --> 01:19:00,719
Speaker 3: like I do think that he would have kept killing.

1499
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 3: I think he would have kept doing terrible things to people.

1500
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 3: And so, you know, it is it is a comfort

1501
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:11,240
Speaker 3: knowing that like that, even though my son is not

1502
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:14,479
Speaker 3: here anymore, like at least this man is in jail

1503
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:16,120
Speaker 3: and he can't hurt anybody else.

1504
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the most important lessons you want to

1505
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:23,640
Speaker 2: impart to your daughters about relationships.

1506
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 3: I think that I want them to realize that they

1507
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:36,000
Speaker 3: are important and that they don't have to settle for

1508
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:39,439
Speaker 3: you know, they don't have to settle and they can

1509
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 3: choose their own destiny. And like, you know, some people

1510
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:44,679
Speaker 3: in my family got in my case because they're like, oh,

1511
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 3: like my oldest has said she's like I'm just gonna

1512
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 3: get a donor, and they're like, you should teach them that,

1513
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:50,840
Speaker 3: like there's all these other things. I was like, you know,

1514
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 3: I love that she says that because she knows that

1515
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,679
Speaker 3: it's an option, right, right, And I'm like I also

1516
01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 3: tell her, like, hey, look like there's beauty and any

1517
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:02,920
Speaker 3: type of way that you create a family, right, But

1518
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:07,080
Speaker 3: I want her to know that she doesn't have to

1519
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:11,760
Speaker 3: she doesn't have to feel like she's settling, right. I

1520
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 3: hope for them that they find very like healthy, happy relationships.

1521
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:19,320
Speaker 3: I certainly want grand babies right one day, but I

1522
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:22,519
Speaker 3: like that they, at least in that way, are sort

1523
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 3: of like freed from societals like what is right? Yeah,

1524
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:30,439
Speaker 3: because I think that is. I think that is the

1525
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:33,920
Speaker 3: most toxic thing, like feeling like you as a woman

1526
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 3: have to be like the property of a man. And

1527
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:39,400
Speaker 3: it's part of the reason why I'm in my feelings

1528
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:42,000
Speaker 3: about marriage in general these days, because I'm like, it

1529
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 3: made sense in the seventies and we couldn't have bank accounts, right,

1530
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 3: But now I'm like, you know, I want my daughters

1531
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:50,800
Speaker 3: to know that when they're in a relationship, they can

1532
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:53,680
Speaker 3: They should wake up every day choosing that person, and

1533
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:55,720
Speaker 3: they should make sure that person wakes up every day

1534
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 3: choosing them, choose them, and not just because they have

1535
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 3: to be legally attached with them, but just because, like

1536
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 3: I choose to be with you because you treat me

1537
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:05,479
Speaker 3: well and because I love you, and because you're a

1538
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 3: good person and all those things.

1539
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:07,120
Speaker 1: Right.

1540
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:11,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, And last, but not least, if Prince were here today,

1541
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 2: what would you want him to know about the work

1542
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:14,000
Speaker 2: you're doing.

1543
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,120
Speaker 3: I told him the day that the day I buried him,

1544
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:23,519
Speaker 3: I like a crazy person had a conversation with the corpse,

1545
01:21:24,080 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 3: and I remember, it's not crazy. I was like, Prince,

1546
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:29,840
Speaker 3: you were not the first, but I want you to

1547
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:32,719
Speaker 3: be the last. And I'm gonna do whatever I can

1548
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:37,280
Speaker 3: to make sure that I contribute to making sure this ends.

1549
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:44,479
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I I hope that he knows that

1550
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 3: I'm carrying this on for him. I hope he feels

1551
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:52,080
Speaker 3: vindicated and choosing me, like, oh, I did the right

1552
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:55,760
Speaker 3: thing because she like did what I wanted. But I

1553
01:21:55,760 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 3: also hope that he you know, I've I've tried to

1554
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:04,880
Speaker 3: work really hard on forgiving myself, and I think one

1555
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 3: of the things that I'm very sad about is just

1556
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,840
Speaker 3: I feel like I feel in many ways I failed

1557
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 3: him by not not making it so that it never happened.

1558
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:23,639
Speaker 3: And that's yeah, I mean, I would tell him, I'm sorry.

1559
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:26,439
Speaker 2: Have you forgiven yourself?

1560
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:28,880
Speaker 3: I don't know, that's a good question, Like I think

1561
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 3: I have in some ways.

1562
01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:36,679
Speaker 2: Because I feel like you it's a wave.

1563
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:40,400
Speaker 3: I think it's hard to completely feel like I don't

1564
01:22:40,439 --> 01:22:44,679
Speaker 3: have any accountability right because I think that there's still

1565
01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:48,400
Speaker 3: a part of me that is like I actively made

1566
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:52,880
Speaker 3: the choice to be with this person, right right, And

1567
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:57,439
Speaker 3: I think it's more it's not necessarily I blame myself.

1568
01:22:57,479 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 3: I just feel like a level of sadness that I

1569
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:05,200
Speaker 3: wasn't able to protect him, Like I tried really really

1570
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:10,160
Speaker 3: hard and I wasn't able to do it, and it

1571
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:12,200
Speaker 3: and it. I think the thing that bothers me the

1572
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 3: most is like I go over and over and it

1573
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:16,559
Speaker 3: was part of the book too. It's just like all

1574
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:18,840
Speaker 3: these things happen and I and I still feel like

1575
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:23,240
Speaker 3: if one thing had been different, he'd still be Yeah,

1576
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:25,720
Speaker 3: And so that's the hard part. That's hard, Like I

1577
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 3: think part of the trauma, and like the acute trauma

1578
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:31,680
Speaker 3: of going through it is like you kind of you

1579
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:33,360
Speaker 3: always feel like you have to be a step ahead

1580
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 3: of the crazy person, but it's like there's no there's

1581
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 3: no knowing, you know. Yeah, but it still doesn't feel

1582
01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 3: good because you're like, damn, like if I could have

1583
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:46,040
Speaker 3: just done one thing different, if I could known this thing.

1584
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 3: So I don't know. I mean, I think I have

1585
01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:52,920
Speaker 3: forgiven myself, but it's still I think I still hold

1586
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 3: a certain level of just like anger and disappointment that

1587
01:23:56,320 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 3: I'll probably always hold because I couldn't do anything. I

1588
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:03,719
Speaker 3: couldn't do. I couldn't I couldn't save them.

1589
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, listen, I'm proud of you. I think that

1590
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 2: your story is definitely inspiring, and I know that it

1591
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:13,720
Speaker 2: is saving a lot of people. So you know, I

1592
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:17,559
Speaker 2: think that if it makes sense, this wasn't in vain,

1593
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 2: and I think I think you're doing it like I

1594
01:24:20,479 --> 01:24:22,479
Speaker 2: think that Prince came here for a reason because he

1595
01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:25,640
Speaker 2: knew that you was gonna fight, and you fought a

1596
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 2: really good fight, like God forbid, something wants to happen.

1597
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:29,519
Speaker 2: I got my money on you.

1598
01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 3: Well I agree. I mean, I'm hoving like I want

1599
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:35,880
Speaker 3: to start a movement and I'm hoping that people will

1600
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 3: get you.

1601
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:39,320
Speaker 2: You did start a movement. I'm surprised have anybody reached

1602
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 2: out to make this a movie or something or like not.

1603
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 3: Yet, But I'm still, like I joke with friends, I'm

1604
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:46,719
Speaker 3: just like, I feel like I've lived a bad lifetime movie.

1605
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 3: So I feel like, you know, yeah.

1606
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:53,080
Speaker 2: Because we need a movie, like we need something, because

1607
01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of women and men can

1608
01:24:57,360 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 2: relate to your story.

1609
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:03,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I I would certainly love for the

1610
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:08,360
Speaker 3: opportunity to have more people be aware and not just

1611
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 3: for you know, like I said in the book, like

1612
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:14,400
Speaker 3: not just for trauma porn, but really awareness people understand,

1613
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 3: you know, like I want people to walk around as

1614
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:19,719
Speaker 3: woke as I am, Like so they start to think

1615
01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 3: about like, Okay, you know, like I let's stop trusting

1616
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:29,240
Speaker 3: people with the same level of trust you know.

1617
01:25:30,439 --> 01:25:33,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, thank you so much for being on the show.

1618
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 2: I'm really excited to have you on, y'all. I've read

1619
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:40,000
Speaker 2: her book literally like two days, so I'm just I'm

1620
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:41,720
Speaker 2: looking forward to keep it in contact with you because

1621
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:43,519
Speaker 2: I definitely want to have you involved in some of

1622
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:45,400
Speaker 2: the things that I'm working on, because I'm really big

1623
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 2: on people sharing a story because you never know how

1624
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:51,080
Speaker 2: your storyline could be someone else's lifeline. So I really

1625
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:52,200
Speaker 2: appreciate you coming on.

1626
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

1627
01:25:53,920 --> 01:25:55,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to the listeners, if you have any questions

1628
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:57,680
Speaker 2: tom It's concerns, please make sure to email me a

1629
01:25:57,680 --> 01:26:01,559
Speaker 2: hello at the pahgpodcast dot com. And until next time,

1630
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 2: everyone later, Bye bye. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is a

1631
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,480
Speaker 2: production of the Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts

1632
01:26:18,479 --> 01:26:22,519
Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1633
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows. Don't forget to subscribe

1634
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:27,760
Speaker 2: and rate the show, and you can connect with me

1635
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 2: on social media at the PHG podcast