WEBVTT - The Lack of Basic Sanitation in the United States is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:24.556 Bushkin. This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. The first thing 0:00:24.556 --> 0:00:27.076 he has to do is recognized you have a problem, 0:00:27.236 --> 0:00:29.596 yet to admit to it. We haven't done that as 0:00:29.636 --> 0:00:36.036 a nation. The problem is inadequate wastewater removal and sanitation infrastructure. 0:00:36.436 --> 0:00:38.476 Do you think this is a problem that exists in 0:00:38.556 --> 0:00:41.636 all fifty states? I know it exists in all states. 0:00:42.396 --> 0:00:45.796 Talking about human waste and the ills it causes, it's 0:00:45.836 --> 0:00:49.116 not so pleasant. A sense of humor helps. It is 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:52.116 grows sometimes, but I've gotten used to it. That's why 0:00:52.116 --> 0:00:54.596 I have my outfit. I have my black outfit with 0:00:54.636 --> 0:00:57.276 my boots so I won't be big by mosquito's on 0:00:57.436 --> 0:01:01.036 rous sewage. Again, not talking about the problems caused by 0:01:01.156 --> 0:01:04.076 untreated sewage has led us to ignore the prevalence of 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:08.116 diseases that people thought were largely gone from the United States, 0:01:08.476 --> 0:01:11.476 and we found evidence of hookworm and other tropical parasites. 0:01:11.796 --> 0:01:16.916 Hookworm can penetrate the skin and usually end up typically 0:01:16.956 --> 0:01:20.556 in the good and it can create anemia because it 0:01:20.636 --> 0:01:25.596 feeds on the person's blood. COVID nineteen has underscored the 0:01:25.676 --> 0:01:29.876 health vulnerability that are linked with poverty and racial inequality. 0:01:30.756 --> 0:01:34.476 Some of those health discorities are closely tied to inadequate 0:01:34.476 --> 0:01:39.156 wastewater treatment. Catherine Coleman Flowers was recently awarded a MacArthur 0:01:39.276 --> 0:01:42.436 Genius Grant for her work studying the problem of bad 0:01:42.516 --> 0:01:46.316 sewage on how to improve it. That's the good news. 0:01:46.356 --> 0:01:49.516 The bad news is she sees the problem getting worse 0:01:49.836 --> 0:01:54.196 the climate change. Whether you're in Alaska whereas because of 0:01:54.196 --> 0:01:57.716 no infrastructure in some cases, or failing infrastructure because of 0:01:57.716 --> 0:02:00.396 militing for perma frost, or if you're in a coastal 0:02:00.476 --> 0:02:04.196 state because of rise in sea level, or you're like 0:02:04.596 --> 0:02:07.996 where we are in Alabama with groundwater increasing because of 0:02:08.076 --> 0:02:11.036 sea level rise. All of these issues are issues that 0:02:11.036 --> 0:02:13.076 we're going to have to deal with, and it's best 0:02:13.076 --> 0:02:14.916 to deal with it now instead of waiting until there's 0:02:14.916 --> 0:02:17.996 a crisis like what we saw just happened in Texas. 0:02:18.356 --> 0:02:21.316 Catherine Coleman Flowers is the founder and director of the 0:02:21.356 --> 0:02:25.636 Center for Rural Enterprise and Environmental Justice. The lack of 0:02:26.156 --> 0:02:30.236 basic sanitation and rural communities in the United States is 0:02:30.276 --> 0:02:37.276 a problem that is solvable. Katherine, you grew up in 0:02:37.396 --> 0:02:41.276 Lownes County, Alabama. Can you tell me a little bit 0:02:41.276 --> 0:02:43.956 about it and what it was like growing up there. Yes, 0:02:44.076 --> 0:02:48.796 Lowndes County is seven hundred and fourteen square miles, very rural. 0:02:49.516 --> 0:02:52.476 When I grew up, we could actually pick plants and 0:02:53.076 --> 0:02:56.676 apples off trees, and I would walk through corn fields 0:02:56.716 --> 0:03:00.196 and actually pick up an ear corn off of stock 0:03:00.276 --> 0:03:03.636 and could you know, sink my teeth in it, and actually, 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:08.236 you know, like the way it tasts. It was supported 0:03:08.316 --> 0:03:10.796 by the Alabama I'm a river. There are lots of 0:03:10.916 --> 0:03:15.836 creeks and streams there. It was a kind of community 0:03:15.876 --> 0:03:20.556 where people were self reliant and everybody had a garden 0:03:21.116 --> 0:03:23.676 and when you went to visit someone, it was not 0:03:23.836 --> 0:03:26.756 unusual for them to talk about what they had grown 0:03:26.756 --> 0:03:28.916 in their garden, even give you something to take home. 0:03:29.916 --> 0:03:33.756 And that is the Black Belt is where cotton was 0:03:33.916 --> 0:03:38.556 historically grown in the country. It's got this very rich soil. 0:03:38.916 --> 0:03:40.916 We got to keep in mind that Lounge County was 0:03:40.996 --> 0:03:44.636 very agriculture. We had a lot of plantations there. Loungese 0:03:44.636 --> 0:03:47.996 County also has a history of activism that goes back 0:03:48.036 --> 0:03:53.156 really to after the Civil War, where African Americans, which 0:03:53.556 --> 0:03:57.636 make a majority of the county, we're fighting not only 0:03:57.676 --> 0:03:59.516 for the right to vote, but the right to control 0:03:59.636 --> 0:04:03.076 their own labor. And because of the type of racial 0:04:03.116 --> 0:04:08.116 trauma and violence that was in Lownes County, it gained 0:04:08.156 --> 0:04:12.036 the name Blood and so I grew up at a 0:04:12.036 --> 0:04:13.876 time when it was great change and a lot of 0:04:13.876 --> 0:04:17.436 people were coming to visit, primarily students that were part 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:20.716 of the Student and Violent Coordinating Committee that were organizing 0:04:20.756 --> 0:04:22.556 people for the right to vote, because Lounge County is 0:04:22.596 --> 0:04:26.316 between the Settler to Montgomery area and most of the 0:04:26.356 --> 0:04:30.956 march for the right to vote actually goes through Lounge County. Yeah, 0:04:31.196 --> 0:04:34.956 you've highlighted the statistic that eighty percent I think of 0:04:35.036 --> 0:04:38.236 people live in Lone County are not on a municipal 0:04:38.316 --> 0:04:41.556 sewer system, which means when you flush the toilet, it 0:04:41.556 --> 0:04:43.716 doesn't go in the sewer system, it goes somewhere else. 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:48.076 Is that the situation, Yes, that's the situation. And but 0:04:48.276 --> 0:04:52.196 of those eighty percent, well of the twenty percent that 0:04:52.276 --> 0:04:54.356 are all in a municipal system, some of them are 0:04:54.396 --> 0:04:56.636 paying a waste with a treatment fee, and when they 0:04:56.636 --> 0:04:59.916 flushed their system, instead of the just going into the lagoon, 0:05:00.316 --> 0:05:02.836 it's coming back into their homes and into their yards. 0:05:03.156 --> 0:05:05.956 So we not only see failing on site septic systems 0:05:06.036 --> 0:05:08.956 or the lack of septic systems, But we also see 0:05:09.356 --> 0:05:14.556 failures that are occurring with the wastewater treatment plants as well. Kevin, 0:05:14.596 --> 0:05:16.676 can you explain to me how septic system works in 0:05:16.756 --> 0:05:20.476 just the simplest terms, Well, quite simply, what a septic 0:05:20.516 --> 0:05:23.756 system does. When the toilet is flush, it goes into 0:05:24.116 --> 0:05:28.516 it generally looks like a concrete container, and it goes 0:05:28.556 --> 0:05:31.956 into that container. They're supposed to be natural processes that 0:05:32.036 --> 0:05:35.276 take place to break down the affluent that goes there, 0:05:35.316 --> 0:05:38.156 and then it goes through field lines, and once it 0:05:38.156 --> 0:05:40.476 goes to those field lines, it's supposed to come out 0:05:40.556 --> 0:05:45.876 to almost like drinking water quality. But when it fails, 0:05:45.996 --> 0:05:49.436 that's not what happens. It'll get clocked up. And once 0:05:49.476 --> 0:05:52.636 it gets clocked up or it gets water log it 0:05:52.676 --> 0:05:55.356 comes back into the home. And when it comes back 0:05:55.356 --> 0:05:58.076 into the home, you know, the affluent that we thought 0:05:58.076 --> 0:06:00.556 would get treated would not get treated. It actually end 0:06:00.636 --> 0:06:03.076 up inside of the house. So even if you're on 0:06:03.116 --> 0:06:07.196 a system, you don't necessarily have effective sewage. But the worst, 0:06:07.236 --> 0:06:11.196 presumably is if you have no septic system or an 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:14.196 inadequate septic system. It depends on what you de find 0:06:14.356 --> 0:06:18.196 is worse, and an inadequate septic system is probably worse 0:06:18.236 --> 0:06:20.596 than not having a septic system, because if they're straight 0:06:20.596 --> 0:06:23.156 piping that they're taken away from the house, that's just 0:06:23.396 --> 0:06:27.116 a pipe that dumps the sewage outside the house. Right. 0:06:27.476 --> 0:06:31.316 They often just connect PVC pipe to a connection there 0:06:31.316 --> 0:06:33.916 at the mobile home, so when they fluster the toilet, 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:38.916 it'll go through that PVC pipe and wherever it extends it. 0:06:39.036 --> 0:06:43.116 Sometimes I've seen it go into a pit outside of 0:06:43.156 --> 0:06:47.156 the home. I've seen it go into a pasture. I've 0:06:47.156 --> 0:06:49.716 seen it go into the woods. When you have a 0:06:49.756 --> 0:06:51.916 septic system and it fails, or you're part of a 0:06:51.956 --> 0:06:55.036 treatment system that fails, it comes back into the home 0:06:55.276 --> 0:06:58.716 quite easily, and it usually comes back. Sometimes they can 0:06:58.756 --> 0:07:00.996 flood the homes. I've been in the homes where you 0:07:00.996 --> 0:07:02.796 can see the lines along the walls where it was 0:07:02.836 --> 0:07:05.396 flooded with raw switch you can still smell it, or 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:07.916 to come back into a person's bath, to whatever the 0:07:07.956 --> 0:07:10.556 lowest point of entry is going to come back into 0:07:10.556 --> 0:07:16.276 the home. These failures can create serious health consequences. What 0:07:16.436 --> 0:07:19.756 are some of the health consequences that you see in 0:07:19.836 --> 0:07:23.116 Lowne County, But in other places where there is inadequate 0:07:23.156 --> 0:07:26.156 sewage or a total lack of a sewage system. In 0:07:26.196 --> 0:07:29.396 twenty seventeen, and we found evidence of hookworm and other 0:07:29.436 --> 0:07:33.196 tropical parasites that are generally related to being exposed to 0:07:33.316 --> 0:07:36.756 raw sewage. We found that in Lowne County. We haven't 0:07:36.756 --> 0:07:39.756 done those type of studies in other places. However, we 0:07:39.796 --> 0:07:43.196 have collected soil samples and there's a study that's currently 0:07:43.196 --> 0:07:47.156 being peer reviewed where samples were collected in five states, 0:07:47.436 --> 0:07:50.916 and in those five states we also found parasites associated 0:07:50.956 --> 0:07:55.036 with raw sewage. I mean hookworm. That's one of those 0:07:55.036 --> 0:07:58.316 diseases you read in novels describing, you know, the early 0:07:58.356 --> 0:08:02.556 twentieth century, along with things like malaria and yellow fever 0:08:02.716 --> 0:08:05.796 that we don't have I think in the United States anymore. 0:08:06.156 --> 0:08:09.676 What is hookworm? And well, how do we never aradicated? 0:08:10.756 --> 0:08:15.116 So hookworm can penetrate the skin and usually end up 0:08:15.596 --> 0:08:20.196 typically in the gut, and it can create all kinds 0:08:20.236 --> 0:08:22.796 of malats in terms of a person's health, but in children, 0:08:23.236 --> 0:08:27.716 it can create anemia because it feeds on the person's blood. 0:08:28.276 --> 0:08:31.836 For children, it can cause them to be sluggish. It 0:08:31.876 --> 0:08:34.876 can cause even adults who are to be sluggish, and 0:08:34.876 --> 0:08:38.276 it can also cause them not to develop and learn 0:08:38.356 --> 0:08:42.276 as well because of anemia. And now with climate change 0:08:42.356 --> 0:08:46.476 is making it even worse because places that that have 0:08:46.596 --> 0:08:49.316 been mandated to have septic systems, and there have been 0:08:49.516 --> 0:08:54.236 massive developments around the country housing developments that were built 0:08:54.316 --> 0:08:58.036 using septic systems and their failing. We just embarked upon 0:08:58.116 --> 0:09:02.596 a study but The Guardian where The Guardian it's going 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:05.036 to be doing a year long study in partnership with 0:09:05.036 --> 0:09:07.836 the Center for Rule, Enterprise and Environmental Justice, because we 0:09:07.916 --> 0:09:10.556 want to figure out how many people in the US 0:09:10.676 --> 0:09:13.756 have wastewater problems, and we also want to amplify what 0:09:13.836 --> 0:09:16.676 those problems are so we can find some meaningful solutions, 0:09:16.796 --> 0:09:18.876 because right now for us to talk about what a 0:09:18.956 --> 0:09:22.516 real solution is is only you know, we're just guessing 0:09:22.556 --> 0:09:24.756 because we don't have the information to back it up. 0:09:25.076 --> 0:09:27.396 So this way we'll get a chance to see where 0:09:27.396 --> 0:09:32.156 the problems are across the US and be able to 0:09:32.236 --> 0:09:35.956 quantify that and help come up with some reasonable policies. 0:09:36.356 --> 0:09:39.676 You know. One of the examples of what happens when 0:09:39.716 --> 0:09:43.516 we have failed infrastructure, we saw that in Texas when 0:09:43.556 --> 0:09:47.036 they got cold weather. The infrastructure couldn't deal with it. 0:09:47.276 --> 0:09:50.276 The same thing is happening with wastewater treatment around the country, 0:09:50.676 --> 0:09:53.436 so a lot of people are seeing what we with 0:09:53.636 --> 0:09:56.156 people in the Black Belt and other parts of the 0:09:56.156 --> 0:09:58.796 country have been talking about and seeing for quite some time. 0:09:59.276 --> 0:10:03.236 Hopefully everybody see that it's imperative now. That's including any 0:10:03.276 --> 0:10:06.596 kind of infrastructure package that we talk about, not just 0:10:06.756 --> 0:10:10.836 rows and bridges and now power grids. We also need 0:10:10.876 --> 0:10:13.756 to be talking about wastewater treatment too. I know there's 0:10:13.756 --> 0:10:15.596 been a lot of talk. I know Bill Gates was 0:10:15.636 --> 0:10:19.556 interested in these toilets that treat the waste and produce 0:10:19.956 --> 0:10:22.156 I don't know, drinkable water, which is maybe an idea 0:10:22.236 --> 0:10:24.836 people haven't fully wrapped their ad around just yet. But 0:10:24.916 --> 0:10:28.396 I mean, do you think that is the kind of 0:10:28.436 --> 0:10:31.236 a solution we need to be talking about waste that 0:10:31.276 --> 0:10:33.996 gets treated in the toilet? I think that we should 0:10:33.996 --> 0:10:38.596 talk about developing something akin to maybe a something that 0:10:38.636 --> 0:10:40.796 may look like an HVAC system that can be in 0:10:40.836 --> 0:10:43.356 a home or a building that can treat the waste 0:10:43.636 --> 0:10:48.316 and once it is treated and whatever goes out it's clean. 0:10:49.316 --> 0:10:51.116 How do we create the kind of innovation that would 0:10:51.116 --> 0:10:53.636 allow me to hold a cell phone and talk to 0:10:53.676 --> 0:10:55.956 you wherever you are in the world and we can 0:10:55.996 --> 0:10:58.436 see each other. Can we do the same thing with 0:10:58.556 --> 0:11:00.956 wastewater treatment. We have to move away from the wave 0:11:00.996 --> 0:11:03.436 we've been treating it to ways in which we can 0:11:03.476 --> 0:11:08.196 treat it to when the water leaves whatever it goes 0:11:08.236 --> 0:11:11.916 in there, it comes out clean and doesn't contaminate, or 0:11:11.996 --> 0:11:14.596 in the case of a storm or climate event, and 0:11:14.636 --> 0:11:16.716 they're going to be a lot of them, that it 0:11:16.796 --> 0:11:20.156 ends up contaminating our drinking water according to a river 0:11:20.276 --> 0:11:22.476 or a stream. You know. One of the things that 0:11:22.476 --> 0:11:25.076 people are always presenting to me is why don't they 0:11:25.196 --> 0:11:28.716 use composting toilets. Well, we had people to come down 0:11:28.716 --> 0:11:31.036 and talk to a focus group several years ago about 0:11:31.076 --> 0:11:34.276 composting toilets, and basically what people said to us was, 0:11:35.036 --> 0:11:37.316 this is like having an our house in our house. 0:11:38.716 --> 0:11:41.276 We just got away from our houses. We don't want 0:11:41.276 --> 0:11:44.476 that in our home. You know, oftentimes when people make 0:11:44.516 --> 0:11:47.796 these proposals, they're making proposals they've never even been to 0:11:47.876 --> 0:11:50.316 these areas to see what the problem looks like. And 0:11:50.396 --> 0:11:53.116 we can't assume because we studied it in a classroom 0:11:53.276 --> 0:11:56.076 or in a book or in another country that we 0:11:56.196 --> 0:11:59.116 know what's going on in Lowndes County or any other 0:11:59.156 --> 0:12:00.876 part of this country, and we got to find a 0:12:00.916 --> 0:12:05.356 way to Actually that's what an environmental justice perspective comes in, 0:12:05.956 --> 0:12:08.356 is to go to the community, talk to the people 0:12:08.396 --> 0:12:11.116 that are experience a problem because they could be part 0:12:11.156 --> 0:12:14.716 of the solution. That's what's gonna make it solvable. Can 0:12:14.756 --> 0:12:17.036 you tell me about Pamela Rush. She was a friend 0:12:17.036 --> 0:12:21.076 of yours, someone you advocated for, who I am sorry 0:12:21.116 --> 0:12:24.556 to say, passed away from COVID last year, but she 0:12:24.676 --> 0:12:27.756 in a lot of ways just exemplifies this problem with 0:12:27.876 --> 0:12:30.876 her and her family went through. Yes, Pamela Ust lived 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:33.276 in a single white mobile home. She had two children. 0:12:33.836 --> 0:12:37.076 One was eleven when I met her, and then she 0:12:37.076 --> 0:12:41.236 had a son who's about sixteen, who's now eighteen. Her 0:12:41.276 --> 0:12:43.356 sister had reached out to me through Facebook, one of 0:12:43.356 --> 0:12:45.276 her sisters and asked me what I help her, And 0:12:45.316 --> 0:12:48.076 I went to see her and she just lived in 0:12:48.116 --> 0:12:52.876 stark poverty. She was in a home that her her 0:12:52.916 --> 0:12:55.596 mother and brother had purchased, a single white mobile home. 0:12:56.036 --> 0:12:59.876 It was literally falling apart. She had stuffed rags and 0:12:59.996 --> 0:13:03.956 holes to keep animals from coming in She had traps 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:07.556 for opossums to keep them from coming into her house 0:13:07.876 --> 0:13:10.356 because she was afraid that one of them had scratched her. 0:13:10.356 --> 0:13:12.316 She would have to get raby shots, and she was 0:13:12.356 --> 0:13:16.516 a diabetic. Her daughter slept with a sea pap machine, 0:13:16.676 --> 0:13:22.276 something that you generally only see older adults having those 0:13:22.356 --> 0:13:25.316 kind of respiratory issues. One of her rooms in her 0:13:25.356 --> 0:13:28.996 house was just full of mold, and she was straight pipe. 0:13:29.756 --> 0:13:32.196 Her income was less than a thousand dollars a month, 0:13:32.956 --> 0:13:36.356 so we were in some cases her sometimes her power 0:13:36.396 --> 0:13:40.996 bills again climate change and poor housing that's not properly insulated, 0:13:40.996 --> 0:13:45.276 and in this community, you cannot live here without air 0:13:45.316 --> 0:13:48.316 condition in the summertime it gets too hot, and her 0:13:48.356 --> 0:13:50.556 power bills would be three and four hundred dollars a month. 0:13:50.596 --> 0:13:53.116 That was a great chunk of what she was She 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:56.156 was getting once a month because she was on disability 0:13:56.156 --> 0:13:59.036 and her daughter was on disability. I would take people 0:13:59.116 --> 0:14:02.036 there and she would tell her story about being poor. 0:14:02.076 --> 0:14:04.076 And one of the persons, one of the first persons 0:14:04.076 --> 0:14:07.516 who went there was Reverend doctor William Barber, who leased 0:14:07.516 --> 0:14:10.436 a new poor People's campaign, and he actually invited her 0:14:10.476 --> 0:14:14.876 to go to Washington to speak and she testified before Congress, 0:14:15.156 --> 0:14:17.396 and I understand there wasn't a dry eye in the 0:14:17.436 --> 0:14:20.836 house when she told her story because she was so humble. 0:14:21.876 --> 0:14:25.596 But Jane Finder came to visit along with Kat Taylor, 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:29.396 and we thought we had found a solution to Pama's 0:14:29.556 --> 0:14:35.516 housing issue. But COVID had other plans, and she ended 0:14:35.596 --> 0:14:39.876 up getting COVID and died. Pamela USh died at forty 0:14:39.956 --> 0:14:43.956 nine of COVID nineteen. That's not just bad luck, right, 0:14:44.036 --> 0:14:46.956 That reflects a lot of what we're talking about. It 0:14:46.996 --> 0:14:49.276 reflects a lot of the inequalities that we have to 0:14:49.316 --> 0:14:53.556 deal with in this country. The people that sacrifice the 0:14:53.716 --> 0:14:57.636 most get the least amount in terms of access to 0:14:57.716 --> 0:15:00.716 opportunities and at least the things that should be a 0:15:00.756 --> 0:15:04.596 basic human right, which is the human right towarding sanitation. 0:15:05.876 --> 0:15:09.276 Looking at lone counted place you know so well, you 0:15:09.316 --> 0:15:13.116 see this as a manimistation of environmental racism? Or is 0:15:13.116 --> 0:15:17.796 it simply an economic injustice to do African Americans suffer 0:15:17.996 --> 0:15:22.396 disproportionately from lack of access to effective sewage system? Or 0:15:22.436 --> 0:15:24.396 is it just being poor in a place like that. 0:15:25.036 --> 0:15:27.516 I think it's all of the above. It's all of 0:15:27.556 --> 0:15:30.596 the above. It has to do with the land that 0:15:30.716 --> 0:15:32.996 was sold to black people versus the land that white 0:15:32.996 --> 0:15:36.076 people could acquire in Lowne County. It has to do 0:15:36.196 --> 0:15:39.556 with the type of infrastructure investment that's come from the 0:15:39.596 --> 0:15:42.396 federal and state level. There's some people in Lownge kind 0:15:42.436 --> 0:15:44.596 They have told me that they feel that Lowne County 0:15:44.636 --> 0:15:48.476 is still being punished for its activism. Places like Lownes 0:15:48.516 --> 0:15:52.036 County have been neglected for years. And the only reason 0:15:52.076 --> 0:15:54.996 when they only reason they're get attention if they want 0:15:54.996 --> 0:15:57.756 to put a dirty cold plant there or they want 0:15:57.756 --> 0:16:01.356 to put a landfill there, we can get attention to 0:16:01.396 --> 0:16:04.076 get funding and support for that. People that are in 0:16:04.156 --> 0:16:07.476 the county that have gotten help in terms of wastewater treatment. 0:16:07.876 --> 0:16:10.556 The bulk of the money has gone to the white 0:16:10.596 --> 0:16:14.076 businesses that are a long Interstate sixty five. But if 0:16:14.076 --> 0:16:16.916 you go from the town hall and go past the 0:16:16.956 --> 0:16:19.036 town hall to the area where some of those people 0:16:19.076 --> 0:16:22.436 test a positive for hookworm, they're left to their own devices. 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:26.436 The federal government won't put money there, nor the state, 0:16:26.796 --> 0:16:30.196 but of course they can be cited and prosecuted. But 0:16:30.356 --> 0:16:33.476 when the sewage runs back into the business, then those 0:16:33.476 --> 0:16:36.436 people are not cited, they get federal help. There's something 0:16:36.476 --> 0:16:40.716 wrong with that equation going back to the New Deal, 0:16:40.876 --> 0:16:43.156 but the Clean Water Act. I mean, there's been a 0:16:43.196 --> 0:16:49.836 lot of federal resources devoted to improvement in those areas, 0:16:49.876 --> 0:16:53.396 but they've been handed out by local officials who've been 0:16:53.396 --> 0:16:56.316 white and black people had no political power and didn't 0:16:56.836 --> 0:16:59.196 benefit from most of it. Are certainly not to the 0:16:59.276 --> 0:17:01.676 extent that white residents in a place like that dead. 0:17:01.996 --> 0:17:03.956 That's very true, and I think it also goes back 0:17:03.996 --> 0:17:07.116 further than that, because they had a lot of plantations there, 0:17:07.436 --> 0:17:11.076 a lot of cotton plantations, and Lownes County's history has 0:17:11.116 --> 0:17:15.796 been a history of violence where the white minority has 0:17:15.836 --> 0:17:19.516 tried to control the black labor through violence and trauma, 0:17:19.596 --> 0:17:23.196 going back to the Sharecroppers Union when they put down 0:17:23.196 --> 0:17:26.356 the sharecroppers Union with violence by killing people there, Lots 0:17:26.356 --> 0:17:30.796 of lynchings took place in Lownes County, some documented, some undocumented. 0:17:31.156 --> 0:17:33.756 I've met people when Taylor Branches writing his book at 0:17:33.796 --> 0:17:36.196 Cannon's Edge, I've met a lot of people who had 0:17:36.236 --> 0:17:40.476 left Lownes County because they had either witnesses to lynchings 0:17:40.596 --> 0:17:43.036 or their own family members were killed and they end 0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:47.436 up leaving going to other places. So all of those 0:17:47.476 --> 0:17:51.476 factors I think have to be looked at. Yeah, I mean, 0:17:51.516 --> 0:17:54.956 you've been working with the Equal Justice Initiative, the organization 0:17:55.036 --> 0:17:58.796 Brian Stevenson founded, which is best known, first of all 0:17:58.836 --> 0:18:03.196 for its work documenting the history of lynching and segregation, 0:18:03.396 --> 0:18:07.676 but also for challenging wrongful convictions. I was a little 0:18:07.676 --> 0:18:10.916 surprised to see they were involved in sanitation issues. I 0:18:10.956 --> 0:18:13.916 just didn't know they were doing that. Well. First of all, 0:18:13.956 --> 0:18:16.876 if you read my book, in the foreword, Brian Stevenson 0:18:16.916 --> 0:18:20.316 talked about himself growing up in a home that had 0:18:20.396 --> 0:18:22.916 a failing septic system, and it wasn't in Lownes County, 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:25.916 was in Delaware, and he said that whenever his sister 0:18:25.996 --> 0:18:28.636 took a shower, he and his brother had the puppet 0:18:28.676 --> 0:18:30.476 to keep it from coming back into the house. That 0:18:30.556 --> 0:18:33.236 sounds like the same thing that happens in Lounge County. 0:18:33.476 --> 0:18:36.556 But what they were doing in Lounges Canna was criminalizing people. 0:18:37.596 --> 0:18:40.916 The state was criminalizing people who had failing septic systems, 0:18:41.436 --> 0:18:45.116 meaning that they were booking them. Some people have the 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:47.436 only criminal record they have is because they were booked 0:18:47.436 --> 0:18:51.356 for failing to have a working septic system, And sadly, 0:18:52.076 --> 0:18:54.276 one of the first persons who I knew that was 0:18:54.316 --> 0:18:57.556 criminalized for a septic system was one of Pamela's sisters. 0:18:59.196 --> 0:19:02.116 I never really told that part of his story that 0:19:02.276 --> 0:19:07.236 sister just died about two weeks ago from COVID. Well, Catherine, 0:19:07.316 --> 0:19:11.636 you recently wanted MacArthur Fronda Genious Award. Congratulations. Is that 0:19:11.756 --> 0:19:13.756 a sign? Is that a sign? Do you think that 0:19:14.516 --> 0:19:20.356 more people are coming to understand environmental justice and especially 0:19:20.396 --> 0:19:23.756 the issues in the South around environmental injustice. Yes, I 0:19:23.836 --> 0:19:26.196 think that there is a sign that people are starting 0:19:26.196 --> 0:19:28.796 to understand environmental injustice, but I think it's bigger than 0:19:28.876 --> 0:19:31.396 just the South. I think that people are starting to 0:19:31.476 --> 0:19:34.076 understand that this is a problem around the United States 0:19:34.636 --> 0:19:36.836 and that it is time for us to solve it 0:19:36.916 --> 0:19:39.516 once and for all. I think for those that don't 0:19:39.556 --> 0:19:42.476 know that it's a problem, just fortunate and privilege to 0:19:42.636 --> 0:19:45.836 not have to encounter some of what I've seen. One 0:19:45.836 --> 0:19:47.676 of the places that I went to that I wrote 0:19:47.676 --> 0:19:50.916 about in my book is Centerville in Illinois, which is 0:19:51.196 --> 0:19:54.516 Illinois is definitely not a Southern state, but there are 0:19:54.556 --> 0:19:57.756 a lot of people I'm told that in that area, 0:19:57.916 --> 0:20:01.556 especially southern Illinois that have wastewater problems. And I saw 0:20:01.636 --> 0:20:04.236 just as much raw sewage, if not more, on the 0:20:04.276 --> 0:20:07.996 ground in Centerville than I have seen in Lownes County. 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:12.756 We're optimists on this show. So if in ten years 0:20:12.756 --> 0:20:16.116 you're writing another book about how this problem got solved 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:18.316 or dealt with, what do you think it's going to 0:20:18.436 --> 0:20:20.196 be that solves it. Do you think it's going to 0:20:20.276 --> 0:20:22.916 be technology around toilets. Do you think it's going to 0:20:22.996 --> 0:20:25.876 be extension of septic systems? How we're going to fix it? 0:20:27.076 --> 0:20:29.396 Ten years you're going to write the story that Catherine 0:20:29.396 --> 0:20:32.116 Flowers went up to Huntsville and found some of the 0:20:32.156 --> 0:20:35.836 best minds that the Department of Defense and NASA had 0:20:35.876 --> 0:20:39.636 to offer, and together came up with a designed to 0:20:39.716 --> 0:20:42.756 treat wastewater that you can find that any loads of 0:20:42.836 --> 0:20:46.036 home depot and just basically find a technician to come 0:20:46.076 --> 0:20:48.836 and install it, and that it changed the way we 0:20:48.916 --> 0:20:51.676 treat it wastewater. Instead of it going through pipes to 0:20:51.716 --> 0:20:54.836 a large treatment center, when it came out of the house, 0:20:54.836 --> 0:20:57.996 it was clean water. Have you seen a prototype of this? 0:20:58.236 --> 0:21:01.196 I mean, where in my head this is how things start. 0:21:01.276 --> 0:21:05.076 It's like with Einstein the theory of relativity. You know, 0:21:05.236 --> 0:21:08.196 everything is not concrete. We have to make it concrete. 0:21:09.276 --> 0:21:12.156 There are a lot of listeners who are interested now 0:21:12.196 --> 0:21:13.956 and want to know what they can do to help 0:21:14.036 --> 0:21:17.796 solve the problem. Do you have a few few suggestions? Well, 0:21:17.836 --> 0:21:20.076 first of all, I think that they should look for 0:21:20.636 --> 0:21:24.196 the article that we've written with the Guardian and that 0:21:24.276 --> 0:21:27.436 project and help us because we have a survey that's 0:21:27.476 --> 0:21:30.636 attached to that where we're asking people to self report 0:21:31.956 --> 0:21:35.996 where they are experiencing or have seen waste water problems 0:21:35.996 --> 0:21:39.036 around the US. We can't solve a problem. It's just 0:21:39.116 --> 0:21:41.956 like you know, the twelve step program if you're trying 0:21:41.996 --> 0:21:43.916 to get you know, if you're a substance abuse and 0:21:43.956 --> 0:21:45.876 you're trying to get help, the first thing you have 0:21:45.996 --> 0:21:48.716 to do is recognize you have a problem. You got 0:21:48.716 --> 0:21:51.356 to admit to it. We haven't done that as a nation, 0:21:51.876 --> 0:21:54.356 and this is an opportunity for us to do something 0:21:54.396 --> 0:21:57.476 that the government can't do fast because the government would 0:21:57.516 --> 0:21:59.436 have to put that put a number of series of 0:21:59.516 --> 0:22:02.236 questions on the census to do that, and the census 0:22:02.316 --> 0:22:03.996 is every ten years, and we know that's not going 0:22:04.036 --> 0:22:07.316 to happen. Anytime soon. So what we're doing is partnering 0:22:07.356 --> 0:22:10.756 with different organizations and collaborate is around the country for 0:22:10.836 --> 0:22:13.956 the purpose of trying to identify the extent of the 0:22:13.996 --> 0:22:16.476 wastewater problem throughout the US, so we can map that 0:22:16.916 --> 0:22:19.436 and then we can go to our policymakers and say, look, 0:22:19.756 --> 0:22:22.676 these are the problems that we're having. This may suggest 0:22:22.756 --> 0:22:25.836 why we are having these problems, and let's work on 0:22:25.876 --> 0:22:29.396 the type of innovation that's necessary to change it. So 0:22:29.756 --> 0:22:32.676 I think the first step is looking in your own 0:22:32.716 --> 0:22:36.676 backyard and letting us know that this exists. And then 0:22:36.716 --> 0:22:39.036 the second step after that would be for us to 0:22:39.796 --> 0:22:44.436 ask our policymakers, especially this new administration, as we talk 0:22:44.516 --> 0:22:48.756 about green infrastructure, that we include wastewater treatment and we 0:22:48.836 --> 0:22:51.996 also look at new and innovative ways to treat wastewater 0:22:52.436 --> 0:22:55.876 and turn universities into centers of even if there's a 0:22:55.956 --> 0:23:00.116