1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:24,556 Speaker 1: Bushkin. This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. The first thing 2 00:00:24,556 --> 00:00:27,076 Speaker 1: he has to do is recognized you have a problem, 3 00:00:27,236 --> 00:00:29,596 Speaker 1: yet to admit to it. We haven't done that as 4 00:00:29,636 --> 00:00:36,036 Speaker 1: a nation. The problem is inadequate wastewater removal and sanitation infrastructure. 5 00:00:36,436 --> 00:00:38,476 Speaker 1: Do you think this is a problem that exists in 6 00:00:38,556 --> 00:00:41,636 Speaker 1: all fifty states? I know it exists in all states. 7 00:00:42,396 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: Talking about human waste and the ills it causes, it's 8 00:00:45,836 --> 00:00:49,116 Speaker 1: not so pleasant. A sense of humor helps. It is 9 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:52,116 Speaker 1: grows sometimes, but I've gotten used to it. That's why 10 00:00:52,116 --> 00:00:54,596 Speaker 1: I have my outfit. I have my black outfit with 11 00:00:54,636 --> 00:00:57,276 Speaker 1: my boots so I won't be big by mosquito's on 12 00:00:57,436 --> 00:01:01,036 Speaker 1: rous sewage. Again, not talking about the problems caused by 13 00:01:01,156 --> 00:01:04,076 Speaker 1: untreated sewage has led us to ignore the prevalence of 14 00:01:04,196 --> 00:01:08,116 Speaker 1: diseases that people thought were largely gone from the United States, 15 00:01:08,476 --> 00:01:11,476 Speaker 1: and we found evidence of hookworm and other tropical parasites. 16 00:01:11,796 --> 00:01:16,916 Speaker 1: Hookworm can penetrate the skin and usually end up typically 17 00:01:16,956 --> 00:01:20,556 Speaker 1: in the good and it can create anemia because it 18 00:01:20,636 --> 00:01:25,596 Speaker 1: feeds on the person's blood. COVID nineteen has underscored the 19 00:01:25,676 --> 00:01:29,876 Speaker 1: health vulnerability that are linked with poverty and racial inequality. 20 00:01:30,756 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 1: Some of those health discorities are closely tied to inadequate 21 00:01:34,476 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 1: wastewater treatment. Catherine Coleman Flowers was recently awarded a MacArthur 22 00:01:39,276 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 1: Genius Grant for her work studying the problem of bad 23 00:01:42,516 --> 00:01:46,316 Speaker 1: sewage on how to improve it. That's the good news. 24 00:01:46,356 --> 00:01:49,516 Speaker 1: The bad news is she sees the problem getting worse 25 00:01:49,836 --> 00:01:54,196 Speaker 1: the climate change. Whether you're in Alaska whereas because of 26 00:01:54,196 --> 00:01:57,716 Speaker 1: no infrastructure in some cases, or failing infrastructure because of 27 00:01:57,716 --> 00:02:00,396 Speaker 1: militing for perma frost, or if you're in a coastal 28 00:02:00,476 --> 00:02:04,196 Speaker 1: state because of rise in sea level, or you're like 29 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:07,996 Speaker 1: where we are in Alabama with groundwater increasing because of 30 00:02:08,076 --> 00:02:11,036 Speaker 1: sea level rise. All of these issues are issues that 31 00:02:11,036 --> 00:02:13,076 Speaker 1: we're going to have to deal with, and it's best 32 00:02:13,076 --> 00:02:14,916 Speaker 1: to deal with it now instead of waiting until there's 33 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:17,996 Speaker 1: a crisis like what we saw just happened in Texas. 34 00:02:18,356 --> 00:02:21,316 Speaker 1: Catherine Coleman Flowers is the founder and director of the 35 00:02:21,356 --> 00:02:25,636 Speaker 1: Center for Rural Enterprise and Environmental Justice. The lack of 36 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:30,236 Speaker 1: basic sanitation and rural communities in the United States is 37 00:02:30,276 --> 00:02:37,276 Speaker 1: a problem that is solvable. Katherine, you grew up in 38 00:02:37,396 --> 00:02:41,276 Speaker 1: Lownes County, Alabama. Can you tell me a little bit 39 00:02:41,276 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 1: about it and what it was like growing up there. Yes, 40 00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:48,796 Speaker 1: Lowndes County is seven hundred and fourteen square miles, very rural. 41 00:02:49,516 --> 00:02:52,476 Speaker 1: When I grew up, we could actually pick plants and 42 00:02:53,076 --> 00:02:56,676 Speaker 1: apples off trees, and I would walk through corn fields 43 00:02:56,716 --> 00:03:00,196 Speaker 1: and actually pick up an ear corn off of stock 44 00:03:00,276 --> 00:03:03,636 Speaker 1: and could you know, sink my teeth in it, and actually, 45 00:03:04,156 --> 00:03:08,236 Speaker 1: you know, like the way it tasts. It was supported 46 00:03:08,316 --> 00:03:10,796 Speaker 1: by the Alabama I'm a river. There are lots of 47 00:03:10,916 --> 00:03:15,836 Speaker 1: creeks and streams there. It was a kind of community 48 00:03:15,876 --> 00:03:20,556 Speaker 1: where people were self reliant and everybody had a garden 49 00:03:21,116 --> 00:03:23,676 Speaker 1: and when you went to visit someone, it was not 50 00:03:23,836 --> 00:03:26,756 Speaker 1: unusual for them to talk about what they had grown 51 00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:28,916 Speaker 1: in their garden, even give you something to take home. 52 00:03:29,916 --> 00:03:33,756 Speaker 1: And that is the Black Belt is where cotton was 53 00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 1: historically grown in the country. It's got this very rich soil. 54 00:03:38,916 --> 00:03:40,916 Speaker 1: We got to keep in mind that Lounge County was 55 00:03:40,996 --> 00:03:44,636 Speaker 1: very agriculture. We had a lot of plantations there. Loungese 56 00:03:44,636 --> 00:03:47,996 Speaker 1: County also has a history of activism that goes back 57 00:03:48,036 --> 00:03:53,156 Speaker 1: really to after the Civil War, where African Americans, which 58 00:03:53,556 --> 00:03:57,636 Speaker 1: make a majority of the county, we're fighting not only 59 00:03:57,676 --> 00:03:59,516 Speaker 1: for the right to vote, but the right to control 60 00:03:59,636 --> 00:04:03,076 Speaker 1: their own labor. And because of the type of racial 61 00:04:03,116 --> 00:04:08,116 Speaker 1: trauma and violence that was in Lownes County, it gained 62 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:12,036 Speaker 1: the name Blood and so I grew up at a 63 00:04:12,036 --> 00:04:13,876 Speaker 1: time when it was great change and a lot of 64 00:04:13,876 --> 00:04:17,436 Speaker 1: people were coming to visit, primarily students that were part 65 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:20,716 Speaker 1: of the Student and Violent Coordinating Committee that were organizing 66 00:04:20,756 --> 00:04:22,556 Speaker 1: people for the right to vote, because Lounge County is 67 00:04:22,596 --> 00:04:26,316 Speaker 1: between the Settler to Montgomery area and most of the 68 00:04:26,356 --> 00:04:30,956 Speaker 1: march for the right to vote actually goes through Lounge County. Yeah, 69 00:04:31,196 --> 00:04:34,956 Speaker 1: you've highlighted the statistic that eighty percent I think of 70 00:04:35,036 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 1: people live in Lone County are not on a municipal 71 00:04:38,316 --> 00:04:41,556 Speaker 1: sewer system, which means when you flush the toilet, it 72 00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:43,716 Speaker 1: doesn't go in the sewer system, it goes somewhere else. 73 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:48,076 Speaker 1: Is that the situation, Yes, that's the situation. And but 74 00:04:48,276 --> 00:04:52,196 Speaker 1: of those eighty percent, well of the twenty percent that 75 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:54,356 Speaker 1: are all in a municipal system, some of them are 76 00:04:54,396 --> 00:04:56,636 Speaker 1: paying a waste with a treatment fee, and when they 77 00:04:56,636 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 1: flushed their system, instead of the just going into the lagoon, 78 00:05:00,316 --> 00:05:02,836 Speaker 1: it's coming back into their homes and into their yards. 79 00:05:03,156 --> 00:05:05,956 Speaker 1: So we not only see failing on site septic systems 80 00:05:06,036 --> 00:05:08,956 Speaker 1: or the lack of septic systems, But we also see 81 00:05:09,356 --> 00:05:14,556 Speaker 1: failures that are occurring with the wastewater treatment plants as well. Kevin, 82 00:05:14,596 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 1: can you explain to me how septic system works in 83 00:05:16,756 --> 00:05:20,476 Speaker 1: just the simplest terms, Well, quite simply, what a septic 84 00:05:20,516 --> 00:05:23,756 Speaker 1: system does. When the toilet is flush, it goes into 85 00:05:24,116 --> 00:05:28,516 Speaker 1: it generally looks like a concrete container, and it goes 86 00:05:28,556 --> 00:05:31,956 Speaker 1: into that container. They're supposed to be natural processes that 87 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:35,276 Speaker 1: take place to break down the affluent that goes there, 88 00:05:35,316 --> 00:05:38,156 Speaker 1: and then it goes through field lines, and once it 89 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:40,476 Speaker 1: goes to those field lines, it's supposed to come out 90 00:05:40,556 --> 00:05:45,876 Speaker 1: to almost like drinking water quality. But when it fails, 91 00:05:45,996 --> 00:05:49,436 Speaker 1: that's not what happens. It'll get clocked up. And once 92 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:52,636 Speaker 1: it gets clocked up or it gets water log it 93 00:05:52,676 --> 00:05:55,356 Speaker 1: comes back into the home. And when it comes back 94 00:05:55,356 --> 00:05:58,076 Speaker 1: into the home, you know, the affluent that we thought 95 00:05:58,076 --> 00:06:00,556 Speaker 1: would get treated would not get treated. It actually end 96 00:06:00,636 --> 00:06:03,076 Speaker 1: up inside of the house. So even if you're on 97 00:06:03,116 --> 00:06:07,196 Speaker 1: a system, you don't necessarily have effective sewage. But the worst, 98 00:06:07,236 --> 00:06:11,196 Speaker 1: presumably is if you have no septic system or an 99 00:06:11,236 --> 00:06:14,196 Speaker 1: inadequate septic system. It depends on what you de find 100 00:06:14,356 --> 00:06:18,196 Speaker 1: is worse, and an inadequate septic system is probably worse 101 00:06:18,236 --> 00:06:20,596 Speaker 1: than not having a septic system, because if they're straight 102 00:06:20,596 --> 00:06:23,156 Speaker 1: piping that they're taken away from the house, that's just 103 00:06:23,396 --> 00:06:27,116 Speaker 1: a pipe that dumps the sewage outside the house. Right. 104 00:06:27,476 --> 00:06:31,316 Speaker 1: They often just connect PVC pipe to a connection there 105 00:06:31,316 --> 00:06:33,916 Speaker 1: at the mobile home, so when they fluster the toilet, 106 00:06:33,916 --> 00:06:38,916 Speaker 1: it'll go through that PVC pipe and wherever it extends it. 107 00:06:39,036 --> 00:06:43,116 Speaker 1: Sometimes I've seen it go into a pit outside of 108 00:06:43,156 --> 00:06:47,156 Speaker 1: the home. I've seen it go into a pasture. I've 109 00:06:47,156 --> 00:06:49,716 Speaker 1: seen it go into the woods. When you have a 110 00:06:49,756 --> 00:06:51,916 Speaker 1: septic system and it fails, or you're part of a 111 00:06:51,956 --> 00:06:55,036 Speaker 1: treatment system that fails, it comes back into the home 112 00:06:55,276 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 1: quite easily, and it usually comes back. Sometimes they can 113 00:06:58,756 --> 00:07:00,996 Speaker 1: flood the homes. I've been in the homes where you 114 00:07:00,996 --> 00:07:02,796 Speaker 1: can see the lines along the walls where it was 115 00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:05,396 Speaker 1: flooded with raw switch you can still smell it, or 116 00:07:05,556 --> 00:07:07,916 Speaker 1: to come back into a person's bath, to whatever the 117 00:07:07,956 --> 00:07:10,556 Speaker 1: lowest point of entry is going to come back into 118 00:07:10,556 --> 00:07:16,276 Speaker 1: the home. These failures can create serious health consequences. What 119 00:07:16,436 --> 00:07:19,756 Speaker 1: are some of the health consequences that you see in 120 00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:23,116 Speaker 1: Lowne County, But in other places where there is inadequate 121 00:07:23,156 --> 00:07:26,156 Speaker 1: sewage or a total lack of a sewage system. In 122 00:07:26,196 --> 00:07:29,396 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, and we found evidence of hookworm and other 123 00:07:29,436 --> 00:07:33,196 Speaker 1: tropical parasites that are generally related to being exposed to 124 00:07:33,316 --> 00:07:36,756 Speaker 1: raw sewage. We found that in Lowne County. We haven't 125 00:07:36,756 --> 00:07:39,756 Speaker 1: done those type of studies in other places. However, we 126 00:07:39,796 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 1: have collected soil samples and there's a study that's currently 127 00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 1: being peer reviewed where samples were collected in five states, 128 00:07:47,436 --> 00:07:50,916 Speaker 1: and in those five states we also found parasites associated 129 00:07:50,956 --> 00:07:55,036 Speaker 1: with raw sewage. I mean hookworm. That's one of those 130 00:07:55,036 --> 00:07:58,316 Speaker 1: diseases you read in novels describing, you know, the early 131 00:07:58,356 --> 00:08:02,556 Speaker 1: twentieth century, along with things like malaria and yellow fever 132 00:08:02,716 --> 00:08:05,796 Speaker 1: that we don't have I think in the United States anymore. 133 00:08:06,156 --> 00:08:09,676 Speaker 1: What is hookworm? And well, how do we never aradicated? 134 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:15,116 Speaker 1: So hookworm can penetrate the skin and usually end up 135 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 1: typically in the gut, and it can create all kinds 136 00:08:20,236 --> 00:08:22,796 Speaker 1: of malats in terms of a person's health, but in children, 137 00:08:23,236 --> 00:08:27,716 Speaker 1: it can create anemia because it feeds on the person's blood. 138 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:31,836 Speaker 1: For children, it can cause them to be sluggish. It 139 00:08:31,876 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 1: can cause even adults who are to be sluggish, and 140 00:08:34,876 --> 00:08:38,276 Speaker 1: it can also cause them not to develop and learn 141 00:08:38,356 --> 00:08:42,276 Speaker 1: as well because of anemia. And now with climate change 142 00:08:42,356 --> 00:08:46,476 Speaker 1: is making it even worse because places that that have 143 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:49,316 Speaker 1: been mandated to have septic systems, and there have been 144 00:08:49,516 --> 00:08:54,236 Speaker 1: massive developments around the country housing developments that were built 145 00:08:54,316 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 1: using septic systems and their failing. We just embarked upon 146 00:08:58,116 --> 00:09:02,596 Speaker 1: a study but The Guardian where The Guardian it's going 147 00:09:02,636 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 1: to be doing a year long study in partnership with 148 00:09:05,036 --> 00:09:07,836 Speaker 1: the Center for Rule, Enterprise and Environmental Justice, because we 149 00:09:07,916 --> 00:09:10,556 Speaker 1: want to figure out how many people in the US 150 00:09:10,676 --> 00:09:13,756 Speaker 1: have wastewater problems, and we also want to amplify what 151 00:09:13,836 --> 00:09:16,676 Speaker 1: those problems are so we can find some meaningful solutions, 152 00:09:16,796 --> 00:09:18,876 Speaker 1: because right now for us to talk about what a 153 00:09:18,956 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 1: real solution is is only you know, we're just guessing 154 00:09:22,556 --> 00:09:24,756 Speaker 1: because we don't have the information to back it up. 155 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:27,396 Speaker 1: So this way we'll get a chance to see where 156 00:09:27,396 --> 00:09:32,156 Speaker 1: the problems are across the US and be able to 157 00:09:32,236 --> 00:09:35,956 Speaker 1: quantify that and help come up with some reasonable policies. 158 00:09:36,356 --> 00:09:39,676 Speaker 1: You know. One of the examples of what happens when 159 00:09:39,716 --> 00:09:43,516 Speaker 1: we have failed infrastructure, we saw that in Texas when 160 00:09:43,556 --> 00:09:47,036 Speaker 1: they got cold weather. The infrastructure couldn't deal with it. 161 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:50,276 Speaker 1: The same thing is happening with wastewater treatment around the country, 162 00:09:50,676 --> 00:09:53,436 Speaker 1: so a lot of people are seeing what we with 163 00:09:53,636 --> 00:09:56,156 Speaker 1: people in the Black Belt and other parts of the 164 00:09:56,156 --> 00:09:58,796 Speaker 1: country have been talking about and seeing for quite some time. 165 00:09:59,276 --> 00:10:03,236 Speaker 1: Hopefully everybody see that it's imperative now. That's including any 166 00:10:03,276 --> 00:10:06,596 Speaker 1: kind of infrastructure package that we talk about, not just 167 00:10:06,756 --> 00:10:10,836 Speaker 1: rows and bridges and now power grids. We also need 168 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:13,756 Speaker 1: to be talking about wastewater treatment too. I know there's 169 00:10:13,756 --> 00:10:15,596 Speaker 1: been a lot of talk. I know Bill Gates was 170 00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:19,556 Speaker 1: interested in these toilets that treat the waste and produce 171 00:10:19,956 --> 00:10:22,156 Speaker 1: I don't know, drinkable water, which is maybe an idea 172 00:10:22,236 --> 00:10:24,836 Speaker 1: people haven't fully wrapped their ad around just yet. But 173 00:10:24,916 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that is the kind of 174 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:31,236 Speaker 1: a solution we need to be talking about waste that 175 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:33,996 Speaker 1: gets treated in the toilet? I think that we should 176 00:10:33,996 --> 00:10:38,596 Speaker 1: talk about developing something akin to maybe a something that 177 00:10:38,636 --> 00:10:40,796 Speaker 1: may look like an HVAC system that can be in 178 00:10:40,836 --> 00:10:43,356 Speaker 1: a home or a building that can treat the waste 179 00:10:43,636 --> 00:10:48,316 Speaker 1: and once it is treated and whatever goes out it's clean. 180 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:51,116 Speaker 1: How do we create the kind of innovation that would 181 00:10:51,116 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 1: allow me to hold a cell phone and talk to 182 00:10:53,676 --> 00:10:55,956 Speaker 1: you wherever you are in the world and we can 183 00:10:55,996 --> 00:10:58,436 Speaker 1: see each other. Can we do the same thing with 184 00:10:58,556 --> 00:11:00,956 Speaker 1: wastewater treatment. We have to move away from the wave 185 00:11:00,996 --> 00:11:03,436 Speaker 1: we've been treating it to ways in which we can 186 00:11:03,476 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 1: treat it to when the water leaves whatever it goes 187 00:11:08,236 --> 00:11:11,916 Speaker 1: in there, it comes out clean and doesn't contaminate, or 188 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 1: in the case of a storm or climate event, and 189 00:11:14,636 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 1: they're going to be a lot of them, that it 190 00:11:16,796 --> 00:11:20,156 Speaker 1: ends up contaminating our drinking water according to a river 191 00:11:20,276 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 1: or a stream. You know. One of the things that 192 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:25,076 Speaker 1: people are always presenting to me is why don't they 193 00:11:25,196 --> 00:11:28,716 Speaker 1: use composting toilets. Well, we had people to come down 194 00:11:28,716 --> 00:11:31,036 Speaker 1: and talk to a focus group several years ago about 195 00:11:31,076 --> 00:11:34,276 Speaker 1: composting toilets, and basically what people said to us was, 196 00:11:35,036 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 1: this is like having an our house in our house. 197 00:11:38,716 --> 00:11:41,276 Speaker 1: We just got away from our houses. We don't want 198 00:11:41,276 --> 00:11:44,476 Speaker 1: that in our home. You know, oftentimes when people make 199 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:47,796 Speaker 1: these proposals, they're making proposals they've never even been to 200 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:50,316 Speaker 1: these areas to see what the problem looks like. And 201 00:11:50,396 --> 00:11:53,116 Speaker 1: we can't assume because we studied it in a classroom 202 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:56,076 Speaker 1: or in a book or in another country that we 203 00:11:56,196 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 1: know what's going on in Lowndes County or any other 204 00:11:59,156 --> 00:12:00,876 Speaker 1: part of this country, and we got to find a 205 00:12:00,916 --> 00:12:05,356 Speaker 1: way to Actually that's what an environmental justice perspective comes in, 206 00:12:05,956 --> 00:12:08,356 Speaker 1: is to go to the community, talk to the people 207 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:11,116 Speaker 1: that are experience a problem because they could be part 208 00:12:11,156 --> 00:12:14,716 Speaker 1: of the solution. That's what's gonna make it solvable. Can 209 00:12:14,756 --> 00:12:17,036 Speaker 1: you tell me about Pamela Rush. She was a friend 210 00:12:17,036 --> 00:12:21,076 Speaker 1: of yours, someone you advocated for, who I am sorry 211 00:12:21,116 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 1: to say, passed away from COVID last year, but she 212 00:12:24,676 --> 00:12:27,756 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways just exemplifies this problem with 213 00:12:27,876 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 1: her and her family went through. Yes, Pamela Ust lived 214 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:33,276 Speaker 1: in a single white mobile home. She had two children. 215 00:12:33,836 --> 00:12:37,076 Speaker 1: One was eleven when I met her, and then she 216 00:12:37,076 --> 00:12:41,236 Speaker 1: had a son who's about sixteen, who's now eighteen. Her 217 00:12:41,276 --> 00:12:43,356 Speaker 1: sister had reached out to me through Facebook, one of 218 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:45,276 Speaker 1: her sisters and asked me what I help her, And 219 00:12:45,316 --> 00:12:48,076 Speaker 1: I went to see her and she just lived in 220 00:12:48,116 --> 00:12:52,876 Speaker 1: stark poverty. She was in a home that her her 221 00:12:52,916 --> 00:12:55,596 Speaker 1: mother and brother had purchased, a single white mobile home. 222 00:12:56,036 --> 00:12:59,876 Speaker 1: It was literally falling apart. She had stuffed rags and 223 00:12:59,996 --> 00:13:03,956 Speaker 1: holes to keep animals from coming in She had traps 224 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:07,556 Speaker 1: for opossums to keep them from coming into her house 225 00:13:07,876 --> 00:13:10,356 Speaker 1: because she was afraid that one of them had scratched her. 226 00:13:10,356 --> 00:13:12,316 Speaker 1: She would have to get raby shots, and she was 227 00:13:12,356 --> 00:13:16,516 Speaker 1: a diabetic. Her daughter slept with a sea pap machine, 228 00:13:16,676 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 1: something that you generally only see older adults having those 229 00:13:22,356 --> 00:13:25,316 Speaker 1: kind of respiratory issues. One of her rooms in her 230 00:13:25,356 --> 00:13:28,996 Speaker 1: house was just full of mold, and she was straight pipe. 231 00:13:29,756 --> 00:13:32,196 Speaker 1: Her income was less than a thousand dollars a month, 232 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:36,356 Speaker 1: so we were in some cases her sometimes her power 233 00:13:36,396 --> 00:13:40,996 Speaker 1: bills again climate change and poor housing that's not properly insulated, 234 00:13:40,996 --> 00:13:45,276 Speaker 1: and in this community, you cannot live here without air 235 00:13:45,316 --> 00:13:48,316 Speaker 1: condition in the summertime it gets too hot, and her 236 00:13:48,356 --> 00:13:50,556 Speaker 1: power bills would be three and four hundred dollars a month. 237 00:13:50,596 --> 00:13:53,116 Speaker 1: That was a great chunk of what she was She 238 00:13:53,236 --> 00:13:56,156 Speaker 1: was getting once a month because she was on disability 239 00:13:56,156 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: and her daughter was on disability. I would take people 240 00:13:59,116 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 1: there and she would tell her story about being poor. 241 00:14:02,076 --> 00:14:04,076 Speaker 1: And one of the persons, one of the first persons 242 00:14:04,076 --> 00:14:07,516 Speaker 1: who went there was Reverend doctor William Barber, who leased 243 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:10,436 Speaker 1: a new poor People's campaign, and he actually invited her 244 00:14:10,476 --> 00:14:14,876 Speaker 1: to go to Washington to speak and she testified before Congress, 245 00:14:15,156 --> 00:14:17,396 Speaker 1: and I understand there wasn't a dry eye in the 246 00:14:17,436 --> 00:14:20,836 Speaker 1: house when she told her story because she was so humble. 247 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:25,596 Speaker 1: But Jane Finder came to visit along with Kat Taylor, 248 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:29,396 Speaker 1: and we thought we had found a solution to Pama's 249 00:14:29,556 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 1: housing issue. But COVID had other plans, and she ended 250 00:14:35,596 --> 00:14:39,876 Speaker 1: up getting COVID and died. Pamela USh died at forty 251 00:14:39,956 --> 00:14:43,956 Speaker 1: nine of COVID nineteen. That's not just bad luck, right, 252 00:14:44,036 --> 00:14:46,956 Speaker 1: That reflects a lot of what we're talking about. It 253 00:14:46,996 --> 00:14:49,276 Speaker 1: reflects a lot of the inequalities that we have to 254 00:14:49,316 --> 00:14:53,556 Speaker 1: deal with in this country. The people that sacrifice the 255 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:57,636 Speaker 1: most get the least amount in terms of access to 256 00:14:57,716 --> 00:15:00,716 Speaker 1: opportunities and at least the things that should be a 257 00:15:00,756 --> 00:15:04,596 Speaker 1: basic human right, which is the human right towarding sanitation. 258 00:15:05,876 --> 00:15:09,276 Speaker 1: Looking at lone counted place you know so well, you 259 00:15:09,316 --> 00:15:13,116 Speaker 1: see this as a manimistation of environmental racism? Or is 260 00:15:13,116 --> 00:15:17,796 Speaker 1: it simply an economic injustice to do African Americans suffer 261 00:15:17,996 --> 00:15:22,396 Speaker 1: disproportionately from lack of access to effective sewage system? Or 262 00:15:22,436 --> 00:15:24,396 Speaker 1: is it just being poor in a place like that. 263 00:15:25,036 --> 00:15:27,516 Speaker 1: I think it's all of the above. It's all of 264 00:15:27,556 --> 00:15:30,596 Speaker 1: the above. It has to do with the land that 265 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:32,996 Speaker 1: was sold to black people versus the land that white 266 00:15:32,996 --> 00:15:36,076 Speaker 1: people could acquire in Lowne County. It has to do 267 00:15:36,196 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: with the type of infrastructure investment that's come from the 268 00:15:39,596 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 1: federal and state level. There's some people in Lownge kind 269 00:15:42,436 --> 00:15:44,596 Speaker 1: They have told me that they feel that Lowne County 270 00:15:44,636 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 1: is still being punished for its activism. Places like Lownes 271 00:15:48,516 --> 00:15:52,036 Speaker 1: County have been neglected for years. And the only reason 272 00:15:52,076 --> 00:15:54,996 Speaker 1: when they only reason they're get attention if they want 273 00:15:54,996 --> 00:15:57,756 Speaker 1: to put a dirty cold plant there or they want 274 00:15:57,756 --> 00:16:01,356 Speaker 1: to put a landfill there, we can get attention to 275 00:16:01,396 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 1: get funding and support for that. People that are in 276 00:16:04,156 --> 00:16:07,476 Speaker 1: the county that have gotten help in terms of wastewater treatment. 277 00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:10,556 Speaker 1: The bulk of the money has gone to the white 278 00:16:10,596 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 1: businesses that are a long Interstate sixty five. But if 279 00:16:14,076 --> 00:16:16,916 Speaker 1: you go from the town hall and go past the 280 00:16:16,956 --> 00:16:19,036 Speaker 1: town hall to the area where some of those people 281 00:16:19,076 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 1: test a positive for hookworm, they're left to their own devices. 282 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:26,436 Speaker 1: The federal government won't put money there, nor the state, 283 00:16:26,796 --> 00:16:30,196 Speaker 1: but of course they can be cited and prosecuted. But 284 00:16:30,356 --> 00:16:33,476 Speaker 1: when the sewage runs back into the business, then those 285 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:36,436 Speaker 1: people are not cited, they get federal help. There's something 286 00:16:36,476 --> 00:16:40,716 Speaker 1: wrong with that equation going back to the New Deal, 287 00:16:40,876 --> 00:16:43,156 Speaker 1: but the Clean Water Act. I mean, there's been a 288 00:16:43,196 --> 00:16:49,836 Speaker 1: lot of federal resources devoted to improvement in those areas, 289 00:16:49,876 --> 00:16:53,396 Speaker 1: but they've been handed out by local officials who've been 290 00:16:53,396 --> 00:16:56,316 Speaker 1: white and black people had no political power and didn't 291 00:16:56,836 --> 00:16:59,196 Speaker 1: benefit from most of it. Are certainly not to the 292 00:16:59,276 --> 00:17:01,676 Speaker 1: extent that white residents in a place like that dead. 293 00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:03,956 Speaker 1: That's very true, and I think it also goes back 294 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:07,116 Speaker 1: further than that, because they had a lot of plantations there, 295 00:17:07,436 --> 00:17:11,076 Speaker 1: a lot of cotton plantations, and Lownes County's history has 296 00:17:11,116 --> 00:17:15,796 Speaker 1: been a history of violence where the white minority has 297 00:17:15,836 --> 00:17:19,516 Speaker 1: tried to control the black labor through violence and trauma, 298 00:17:19,596 --> 00:17:23,196 Speaker 1: going back to the Sharecroppers Union when they put down 299 00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:26,356 Speaker 1: the sharecroppers Union with violence by killing people there, Lots 300 00:17:26,356 --> 00:17:30,796 Speaker 1: of lynchings took place in Lownes County, some documented, some undocumented. 301 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:33,756 Speaker 1: I've met people when Taylor Branches writing his book at 302 00:17:33,796 --> 00:17:36,196 Speaker 1: Cannon's Edge, I've met a lot of people who had 303 00:17:36,236 --> 00:17:40,476 Speaker 1: left Lownes County because they had either witnesses to lynchings 304 00:17:40,596 --> 00:17:43,036 Speaker 1: or their own family members were killed and they end 305 00:17:43,116 --> 00:17:47,436 Speaker 1: up leaving going to other places. So all of those 306 00:17:47,476 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 1: factors I think have to be looked at. Yeah, I mean, 307 00:17:51,516 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 1: you've been working with the Equal Justice Initiative, the organization 308 00:17:55,036 --> 00:17:58,796 Speaker 1: Brian Stevenson founded, which is best known, first of all 309 00:17:58,836 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 1: for its work documenting the history of lynching and segregation, 310 00:18:03,396 --> 00:18:07,676 Speaker 1: but also for challenging wrongful convictions. I was a little 311 00:18:07,676 --> 00:18:10,916 Speaker 1: surprised to see they were involved in sanitation issues. I 312 00:18:10,956 --> 00:18:13,916 Speaker 1: just didn't know they were doing that. Well. First of all, 313 00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:16,876 Speaker 1: if you read my book, in the foreword, Brian Stevenson 314 00:18:16,916 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: talked about himself growing up in a home that had 315 00:18:20,396 --> 00:18:22,916 Speaker 1: a failing septic system, and it wasn't in Lownes County, 316 00:18:22,996 --> 00:18:25,916 Speaker 1: was in Delaware, and he said that whenever his sister 317 00:18:25,996 --> 00:18:28,636 Speaker 1: took a shower, he and his brother had the puppet 318 00:18:28,676 --> 00:18:30,476 Speaker 1: to keep it from coming back into the house. That 319 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:33,236 Speaker 1: sounds like the same thing that happens in Lounge County. 320 00:18:33,476 --> 00:18:36,556 Speaker 1: But what they were doing in Lounges Canna was criminalizing people. 321 00:18:37,596 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 1: The state was criminalizing people who had failing septic systems, 322 00:18:41,436 --> 00:18:45,116 Speaker 1: meaning that they were booking them. Some people have the 323 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:47,436 Speaker 1: only criminal record they have is because they were booked 324 00:18:47,436 --> 00:18:51,356 Speaker 1: for failing to have a working septic system, And sadly, 325 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:54,276 Speaker 1: one of the first persons who I knew that was 326 00:18:54,316 --> 00:18:57,556 Speaker 1: criminalized for a septic system was one of Pamela's sisters. 327 00:18:59,196 --> 00:19:02,116 Speaker 1: I never really told that part of his story that 328 00:19:02,276 --> 00:19:07,236 Speaker 1: sister just died about two weeks ago from COVID. Well, Catherine, 329 00:19:07,316 --> 00:19:11,636 Speaker 1: you recently wanted MacArthur Fronda Genious Award. Congratulations. Is that 330 00:19:11,756 --> 00:19:13,756 Speaker 1: a sign? Is that a sign? Do you think that 331 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:20,356 Speaker 1: more people are coming to understand environmental justice and especially 332 00:19:20,396 --> 00:19:23,756 Speaker 1: the issues in the South around environmental injustice. Yes, I 333 00:19:23,836 --> 00:19:26,196 Speaker 1: think that there is a sign that people are starting 334 00:19:26,196 --> 00:19:28,796 Speaker 1: to understand environmental injustice, but I think it's bigger than 335 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:31,396 Speaker 1: just the South. I think that people are starting to 336 00:19:31,476 --> 00:19:34,076 Speaker 1: understand that this is a problem around the United States 337 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:36,836 Speaker 1: and that it is time for us to solve it 338 00:19:36,916 --> 00:19:39,516 Speaker 1: once and for all. I think for those that don't 339 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:42,476 Speaker 1: know that it's a problem, just fortunate and privilege to 340 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:45,836 Speaker 1: not have to encounter some of what I've seen. One 341 00:19:45,836 --> 00:19:47,676 Speaker 1: of the places that I went to that I wrote 342 00:19:47,676 --> 00:19:50,916 Speaker 1: about in my book is Centerville in Illinois, which is 343 00:19:51,196 --> 00:19:54,516 Speaker 1: Illinois is definitely not a Southern state, but there are 344 00:19:54,556 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 1: a lot of people I'm told that in that area, 345 00:19:57,916 --> 00:20:01,556 Speaker 1: especially southern Illinois that have wastewater problems. And I saw 346 00:20:01,636 --> 00:20:04,236 Speaker 1: just as much raw sewage, if not more, on the 347 00:20:04,276 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 1: ground in Centerville than I have seen in Lownes County. 348 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:12,756 Speaker 1: We're optimists on this show. So if in ten years 349 00:20:12,756 --> 00:20:16,116 Speaker 1: you're writing another book about how this problem got solved 350 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:18,316 Speaker 1: or dealt with, what do you think it's going to 351 00:20:18,436 --> 00:20:20,196 Speaker 1: be that solves it. Do you think it's going to 352 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:22,916 Speaker 1: be technology around toilets. Do you think it's going to 353 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 1: be extension of septic systems? How we're going to fix it? 354 00:20:27,076 --> 00:20:29,396 Speaker 1: Ten years you're going to write the story that Catherine 355 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:32,116 Speaker 1: Flowers went up to Huntsville and found some of the 356 00:20:32,156 --> 00:20:35,836 Speaker 1: best minds that the Department of Defense and NASA had 357 00:20:35,876 --> 00:20:39,636 Speaker 1: to offer, and together came up with a designed to 358 00:20:39,716 --> 00:20:42,756 Speaker 1: treat wastewater that you can find that any loads of 359 00:20:42,836 --> 00:20:46,036 Speaker 1: home depot and just basically find a technician to come 360 00:20:46,076 --> 00:20:48,836 Speaker 1: and install it, and that it changed the way we 361 00:20:48,916 --> 00:20:51,676 Speaker 1: treat it wastewater. Instead of it going through pipes to 362 00:20:51,716 --> 00:20:54,836 Speaker 1: a large treatment center, when it came out of the house, 363 00:20:54,836 --> 00:20:57,996 Speaker 1: it was clean water. Have you seen a prototype of this? 364 00:20:58,236 --> 00:21:01,196 Speaker 1: I mean, where in my head this is how things start. 365 00:21:01,276 --> 00:21:05,076 Speaker 1: It's like with Einstein the theory of relativity. You know, 366 00:21:05,236 --> 00:21:08,196 Speaker 1: everything is not concrete. We have to make it concrete. 367 00:21:09,276 --> 00:21:12,156 Speaker 1: There are a lot of listeners who are interested now 368 00:21:12,196 --> 00:21:13,956 Speaker 1: and want to know what they can do to help 369 00:21:14,036 --> 00:21:17,796 Speaker 1: solve the problem. Do you have a few few suggestions? Well, 370 00:21:17,836 --> 00:21:20,076 Speaker 1: first of all, I think that they should look for 371 00:21:20,636 --> 00:21:24,196 Speaker 1: the article that we've written with the Guardian and that 372 00:21:24,276 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 1: project and help us because we have a survey that's 373 00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:30,636 Speaker 1: attached to that where we're asking people to self report 374 00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:35,996 Speaker 1: where they are experiencing or have seen waste water problems 375 00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 1: around the US. We can't solve a problem. It's just 376 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:41,956 Speaker 1: like you know, the twelve step program if you're trying 377 00:21:41,996 --> 00:21:43,916 Speaker 1: to get you know, if you're a substance abuse and 378 00:21:43,956 --> 00:21:45,876 Speaker 1: you're trying to get help, the first thing you have 379 00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 1: to do is recognize you have a problem. You got 380 00:21:48,716 --> 00:21:51,356 Speaker 1: to admit to it. We haven't done that as a nation, 381 00:21:51,876 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 1: and this is an opportunity for us to do something 382 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 1: that the government can't do fast because the government would 383 00:21:57,516 --> 00:21:59,436 Speaker 1: have to put that put a number of series of 384 00:21:59,516 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 1: questions on the census to do that, and the census 385 00:22:02,316 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 1: is every ten years, and we know that's not going 386 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:07,316 Speaker 1: to happen. Anytime soon. So what we're doing is partnering 387 00:22:07,356 --> 00:22:10,756 Speaker 1: with different organizations and collaborate is around the country for 388 00:22:10,836 --> 00:22:13,956 Speaker 1: the purpose of trying to identify the extent of the 389 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:16,476 Speaker 1: wastewater problem throughout the US, so we can map that 390 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:19,436 Speaker 1: and then we can go to our policymakers and say, look, 391 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:22,676 Speaker 1: these are the problems that we're having. This may suggest 392 00:22:22,756 --> 00:22:25,836 Speaker 1: why we are having these problems, and let's work on 393 00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:29,396 Speaker 1: the type of innovation that's necessary to change it. So 394 00:22:29,756 --> 00:22:32,676 Speaker 1: I think the first step is looking in your own 395 00:22:32,716 --> 00:22:36,676 Speaker 1: backyard and letting us know that this exists. And then 396 00:22:36,716 --> 00:22:39,036 Speaker 1: the second step after that would be for us to 397 00:22:39,796 --> 00:22:44,436 Speaker 1: ask our policymakers, especially this new administration, as we talk 398 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:48,756 Speaker 1: about green infrastructure, that we include wastewater treatment and we 399 00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:51,996 Speaker 1: also look at new and innovative ways to treat wastewater 400 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:55,876 Speaker 1: and turn universities into centers of even if there's a 401 00:22:55,956 --> 00:23:00,116 Speaker 1: regional thing, centers of innovation throughout the US where young 402 00:23:00,196 --> 00:23:03,196 Speaker 1: minds and the brightest minds are together trying to come 403 00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:05,756 Speaker 1: up with ways in wish to solve this. You've been 404 00:23:05,796 --> 00:23:09,436 Speaker 1: involved in some of the early policy formation around the 405 00:23:09,436 --> 00:23:12,716 Speaker 1: Biden administration, right, I serve on the Biden say Distunity 406 00:23:12,756 --> 00:23:14,756 Speaker 1: Task Force, and I have to write a lot of 407 00:23:14,756 --> 00:23:18,636 Speaker 1: the policy on environmental justice and when exists. When he 408 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:23,956 Speaker 1: issued his executive order, he also included wastewater infrastructure. You know. 409 00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:25,636 Speaker 1: I went back and I read it last line. I 410 00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:28,316 Speaker 1: was like, wow, you know. And now I have great 411 00:23:28,356 --> 00:23:30,596 Speaker 1: friends that are now in the White House, like Jenna 412 00:23:30,676 --> 00:23:34,316 Speaker 1: McCarthy and John Carey, and they understand that this is 413 00:23:34,316 --> 00:23:36,796 Speaker 1: a problem throughout the US. And the person from the 414 00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 1: Office of Wastewater specifically called my name is say Catherine, 415 00:23:40,156 --> 00:23:43,636 Speaker 1: We're going to work on the wastewater problem. I'm very 416 00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:47,196 Speaker 1: optimistic and hopeful having looked at this. Do you think 417 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:49,676 Speaker 1: this is a problem that exists to some degree in 418 00:23:49,716 --> 00:23:52,876 Speaker 1: all fifty states. I know it exists in all fifty states. 419 00:23:53,556 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 1: I think it's solvable. We just have to start talking 420 00:23:56,036 --> 00:23:59,156 Speaker 1: about it and not see it as just a plumbing problem. 421 00:23:59,756 --> 00:24:02,316 Speaker 1: With climate change is going to get worse. And there 422 00:24:02,356 --> 00:24:04,636 Speaker 1: are different aspects of it depending on where you are. 423 00:24:04,756 --> 00:24:08,796 Speaker 1: Whether you're in Alaska, where it's because of no infrastructure 424 00:24:08,796 --> 00:24:12,316 Speaker 1: in some cases or failing infrastructure because of melting perma 425 00:24:12,356 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 1: frous or if you're in a coastal state because of 426 00:24:15,436 --> 00:24:18,796 Speaker 1: rise and sea level or you're like where we are 427 00:24:18,796 --> 00:24:22,636 Speaker 1: in Alabama with groundwater increasing because of sea level rise. 428 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: All of these issues are issues that we're going to 429 00:24:25,196 --> 00:24:27,156 Speaker 1: have to deal with, and it's best to deal with 430 00:24:27,196 --> 00:24:29,836 Speaker 1: it now instead of waiting until there's a crisis like 431 00:24:29,956 --> 00:24:32,676 Speaker 1: what we see. What we saw just happened in Texas. 432 00:24:32,956 --> 00:24:35,436 Speaker 1: We can't patch our way out of it. We're going 433 00:24:35,516 --> 00:24:39,156 Speaker 1: to have to do something new and different. Well, Catherine, 434 00:24:39,196 --> 00:24:40,916 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining us today. It's 435 00:24:40,916 --> 00:24:44,956 Speaker 1: a great conversation and we wish you every success with 436 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:48,436 Speaker 1: your work. It's amazing the way you have brought attention 437 00:24:48,476 --> 00:24:52,076 Speaker 1: to this problem. Well, thank you, thank you, and hopefully 438 00:24:52,156 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 1: I'll be back in less than teen years to tell 439 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:56,876 Speaker 1: you what the solution is. You're in even more of 440 00:24:56,876 --> 00:25:00,636 Speaker 1: an optimist than i am. I'm giving it five years. 441 00:25:02,196 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 1: Catherine Coleman Flowers is the founder and director of the 442 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:08,916 Speaker 1: Center for Rural Enterprise and Environmental Justice. She was awarded 443 00:25:08,916 --> 00:25:13,716 Speaker 1: a Arthur Genius Grant in twenty twenty. Solvable Senior producer 444 00:25:13,796 --> 00:25:16,996 Speaker 1: is Jocelyn Frank, Research and booking by Lisa Dunn, Our 445 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:21,196 Speaker 1: Managing producer is Katherine Girardo, and our executive producer is 446 00:25:21,276 --> 00:25:25,676 Speaker 1: Mia Lobell Special thanks to Heather Fay, John Schnars, Carley Mgliori, 447 00:25:25,796 --> 00:25:30,316 Speaker 1: Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, Emily Rostek, Maya Konig, 448 00:25:30,316 --> 00:25:34,196 Speaker 1: and Kadija Holly. Solvable is a production of Pushkin Industries. 449 00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:36,756 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please remember to share, rate, 450 00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:39,356 Speaker 1: and review it. It really helps us get the word out. 451 00:25:39,836 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin podcasts wherever you listen, including on 452 00:25:42,596 --> 00:25:46,676 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app and Apple podcast. I'm Jacob Weisberg.