1
00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:06,000
Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. We are on the road, traveling abroad,

2
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,639
Speaker 1: and that's part of why we have had a lot

3
00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 1: of classic episodes to share with you lately. This one,

4
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,840
Speaker 1: this one, I think speaks to us as well as

5
00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,759
Speaker 1: our guest producer, Matt the Madman Stillo Ben.

6
00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 2: Have you ever thought about flights as just being another

7
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 2: form of cargo shipping where humans are the cargo.

8
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,880
Speaker 1: I think about most forms of transit with humans as

9
00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,880
Speaker 1: the cargo, people moving right, Yes, yes, just like a podcast.

10
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,160
Speaker 3: Cargo ships move people. Yeah, it's true.

11
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 2: And there are many, many, very interesting and varying in

12
00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 2: in provenance and accuracy conspiracy theories around the world, the

13
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:48,680
Speaker 2: wide world of shipping.

14
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me be honest with you, guys. Noel, Matt,

15
00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 1: Rachel back here.

16
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,600
Speaker 3: We we got to give Rachel and nickname.

17
00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:56,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

18
00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:57,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

19
00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if we have think about this, but

20
00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,119
Speaker 1: after a long journey, especially returning home, I can look

21
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,920
Speaker 1: at the most mundane of objects, say maybe a handwritten

22
00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 1: note of places to visit and cutter, and just marvel

23
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,800
Speaker 1: at how far this thing traveled to arrive at my hand.

24
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,200
Speaker 1: You know, it reminds me of the scene and no

25
00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,520
Speaker 1: country for old men right where Sugar is talking to

26
00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,759
Speaker 1: the gas station attendant. Sugar, Yeah, and they have a

27
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,840
Speaker 1: They weirdly enough, don't talk about a strange haircut. Instead,

28
00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 1: they talk about how far this quarter traveled through toime.

29
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,200
Speaker 2: Well, it's true, I mean pocket change. Especially when you

30
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,120
Speaker 2: look at you know, coins that are quite old. You

31
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,720
Speaker 2: think about the story behind it and all of the

32
00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,080
Speaker 2: places and people's possessions that it's been in over the years,

33
00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,560
Speaker 2: and there's a whole story to that. But shipping and

34
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 2: the logistics of shipping in and of itself, it's obviously

35
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 2: a very ancient, you know, profession and has come a

36
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,560
Speaker 2: very very long way and determined the course of civilization

37
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 2: as we know it. Make no mistake, folks, current civilization,

38
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,560
Speaker 2: this whole group project we call humanity, will collapse if

39
00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,360
Speaker 2: people stop shipping things. We literally just did an episode

40
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,240
Speaker 2: of our other show, Ridiculous History about the US camel

41
00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,560
Speaker 2: Core and how during the Civil War logistics of moving

42
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,280
Speaker 2: supply supply chain was absolutely crucial to the war effort.

43
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,520
Speaker 1: Yes, and if you look at our previous episodes on

44
00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,560
Speaker 1: things like freeports, which we did after tonight's classic episode,

45
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 1: you will see that the world is not just inundated

46
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: with shipping routes, some of very ancient provenance, like the

47
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,919
Speaker 1: Silk Road. Later now the precedent for the Belton Road

48
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,080
Speaker 1: initiative being built across the world via China. What you

49
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,239
Speaker 1: will see is that there's this whole regime of laws,

50
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: and they are complicated, they are in a ven diagram,

51
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,280
Speaker 1: they're weirdly connected, and everybody breaks those laws.

52
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,200
Speaker 3: Which that was a really good post, by the way,

53
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:03,920
Speaker 3: very intense.

54
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,200
Speaker 2: He just looked directly into the camera when he said that,

55
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 2: and he was kind of moving his hands around some

56
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 2: invisible orb of energy.

57
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,120
Speaker 3: I loved it. Thank you, Thank you, sir.

58
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,680
Speaker 1: So. In twenty nineteen, we got together with our brother

59
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,359
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and we asked, why are there so many conspiracies,

60
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,959
Speaker 1: specifically about shipping stuff around the world.

61
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,000
Speaker 3: Remember the Wayfair conspiracy. Sure did we talk about that

62
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,799
Speaker 3: in this episode. We can't remember mention.

63
00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,040
Speaker 2: It may have been outside of the scope of Rider

64
00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:33,839
Speaker 2: hadn't happened yet.

65
00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,200
Speaker 1: There was furniture as a code, Furniture.

66
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,920
Speaker 2: As a code, the idea that this company Wayfair, that

67
00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 2: ship's kind of ikea fied furniture, you know, sort of

68
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,880
Speaker 2: faux mid century modern types.

69
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:45,560
Speaker 3: That I've got some.

70
00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 2: Wayfair stuff that they were in the human trafficking trade, right,

71
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 2: the idea that certain certain specific brand names may indeed

72
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,840
Speaker 2: be an indicator for villains in the know, and that

73
00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,160
Speaker 2: they were actually per seeing human cargo. Yeah, and I

74
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 2: mean just the human trafficking aspect of it is fascinating

75
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,200
Speaker 2: in and of itself. There's a whole season of the

76
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:12,760
Speaker 2: fantastic HBO series The Wire that revolved around sex workers

77
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,480
Speaker 2: being trafficked into the United States in chipping containers and

78
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,880
Speaker 2: a horrific situation involving many of them passing away because

79
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,720
Speaker 2: they were deprived of oxygen and they were, you know,

80
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,040
Speaker 2: sitting on a loading dock for an undetermined amount of time.

81
00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,640
Speaker 2: And that was sort of the inciting action of that season.

82
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,279
Speaker 2: And it really speaks to the crime aspect of shipping

83
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,000
Speaker 2: and moving cargo and of course people.

84
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,479
Speaker 1: And to put it in an even simpler use case,

85
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 1: here another conspiracy that is completely legal. This one is

86
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,520
Speaker 1: afore all the vexillologists out there on the bans of flags. Yes,

87
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 1: it is completely legal to have a ship that is

88
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,240
Speaker 1: flagged as a ship operating under the auspice of one country. However,

89
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,559
Speaker 1: the crew is from a conglomeration of other countries. However,

90
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,240
Speaker 1: the people who built the ship or from a different country. However,

91
00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 1: the folks that in the origin and destination are from.

92
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,760
Speaker 3: Look machinations within machinations.

93
00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,279
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, there's a lot of sandbox to play in,

94
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,280
Speaker 1: and we want to hear your thoughts.

95
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,720
Speaker 2: And a lot of sands to these very very real conspiracies,

96
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 2: in addition to some that maybe hold a little bit

97
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,320
Speaker 2: less sand. But Ben, before we roll this tape, I

98
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,160
Speaker 2: do have to ask, since you said vexillologists, we were

99
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,440
Speaker 2: having a little moment outside getting some air at this

100
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 2: conference here websumm at Qatar, and you hipped me to

101
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,839
Speaker 2: another term for people who collect matchbooks, voluminousvolluminists.

102
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. So let's get into the episode

103
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 1: of good. From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies.

104
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,960
Speaker 1: History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back

105
00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,159
Speaker 1: now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

106
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,320
Speaker 1: A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

107
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,800
Speaker 4: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

108
00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,320
Speaker 1: They call me Ben, and you're joined as always with

109
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control Decat Most importantly, you

110
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,960
Speaker 1: are here and that makes this stuff They don't want

111
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,080
Speaker 1: you to know. A question for you guys at the

112
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,359
Speaker 1: top of the show, have either of you all started

113
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,920
Speaker 1: ordering holiday gifts things of that nature.

114
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:27,200
Speaker 4: No, I have not.

115
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm one of those last minute is the best

116
00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 1: minute types myself when it comes to this. But we

117
00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,560
Speaker 1: know that we are entering one of the busiest shipping

118
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,240
Speaker 1: periods in the year for at least the domestic US

119
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,239
Speaker 1: and a lot of other countries where in the Christian

120
00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,360
Speaker 1: celebration of Christmas is common, right, And the weird thing

121
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,240
Speaker 1: is that although we always think about shipping and the

122
00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 1: passage of letters and goods during this time of year,

123
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,720
Speaker 1: it's an ongoing, twenty four to seven, three hundred and

124
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 1: sixty five days a year operation and it's huge. The

125
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 1: evidence about the enormity of this industry is all around you. Specifically,

126
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,840
Speaker 1: you look around as you're listening to this episode. Where

127
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,040
Speaker 1: does all this stuff around you come from? We are

128
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,960
Speaker 1: today recording in the legendary stuff you should know studio,

129
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:27,600
Speaker 1: I say legendary.

130
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:28,560
Speaker 3: Can we say legendary?

131
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 4: Yeah? It is certainly. Yeah, first show to hit a

132
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,320
Speaker 4: billion downloads, it's a legend. And we're looking at pictures

133
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:34,960
Speaker 4: of Josh and Chuck all around us.

134
00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:35,840
Speaker 3: Mmmmmmmm.

135
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 1: And there are a couple of a couple of cameos

136
00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,200
Speaker 1: of other non SISK people here. Let's say, I think

137
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 1: that's Jonathan Strickland there the back left of Yeah.

138
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,000
Speaker 4: And all of these were shipped to our offices.

139
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,120
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct. And if you look around your neck

140
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,880
Speaker 1: of the Global Woods, whatever room or environment you find

141
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 1: yourself in today, it's strange to think about how much

142
00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,280
Speaker 1: of this stuff came from so far away. You see,

143
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,000
Speaker 1: centuries ago, most of the possessions the average person had

144
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,760
Speaker 1: would probably be locally made. But nowadays even the most

145
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,080
Speaker 1: mundane items may come from halfway across the planet. We're

146
00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,760
Speaker 1: talking towels, chess sets.

147
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 4: Any consumer good really that is created out of either

148
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:26,480
Speaker 4: plastic or metal.

149
00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,320
Speaker 1: And Matt, you and Paul and I went through a

150
00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,880
Speaker 1: period a few years back where, for reasons we don't

151
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,720
Speaker 1: need to get in the weeds about, we were getting

152
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 1: a lot of technological stuff from China, from a place

153
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,320
Speaker 1: called Monoprice. Remember that I do recall, and I would

154
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:48,040
Speaker 1: be so baffled because some of this was relatively sophisticated equipment.

155
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 1: I would be so baffled to think that the economy

156
00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:57,800
Speaker 1: was so complicated it was cheaper for us to buy

157
00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,600
Speaker 1: something from China oceans away that it was to buy

158
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 1: something from say, California. It's true, and so we're going

159
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,920
Speaker 1: to look into shipping today, but perhaps not in the

160
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:19,080
Speaker 1: way you might assume. And to get us to the dark,

161
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,080
Speaker 1: murky exploration of today's episode, we're going to have to

162
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,680
Speaker 1: start with things that are absolutely true. So here are

163
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:28,319
Speaker 1: the facts.

164
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 4: So the Post Office nowadays, on podcast ads and other

165
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,480
Speaker 4: places alike, is often maligned, though the ads have lessened

166
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 4: quite a bit in the past few years. But you know,

167
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:47,120
Speaker 4: when you imagine the post Office and going to visit

168
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 4: there to send something out, that's one thing. But then

169
00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 4: when you imagine the orchestration that is required to get things,

170
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,640
Speaker 4: whether it's just a simple letter or package of weighs

171
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,320
Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty pounds from one place to another,

172
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,559
Speaker 4: it's an incredibly difficult task that they're faced with, and

173
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 4: they do it every day. Before the United States Post Office,

174
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,120
Speaker 4: you have to imagine you were putting things on a

175
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,080
Speaker 4: railcar a lot of times and then sending it off.

176
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,560
Speaker 4: You were putting it on a person who was riding

177
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,200
Speaker 4: horseback for a long time.

178
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:21,679
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

179
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Before these state levels shipping institutions existed,

180
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,120
Speaker 1: moving goods from one place to another was a just

181
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 1: one long trust fall. You'd have to find a private courier.

182
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,200
Speaker 1: That courier would have to make their own way from

183
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,439
Speaker 1: point A to point B. We're talking, you know, we're

184
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:45,520
Speaker 1: talking like European history, the history of ancient empires. This courier,

185
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 1: if they made it from point A to point B,

186
00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 1: would take a long time, especially if it wasn't from

187
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,559
Speaker 1: if point A was in a different city, country, or

188
00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 1: region than point B. If you were lucky months later,

189
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:00,920
Speaker 1: then we get back to you.

190
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember. All that includes personal security of the courier.

191
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,800
Speaker 1: Right right. It depends upon that, and it depends upon

192
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:13,840
Speaker 1: the trustworthiness the dependability of the courier. If this courier

193
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,520
Speaker 1: disappeared for one reason or another, your sol as everybody understands,

194
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,800
Speaker 1: this is a family show. And thus that stands for

195
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,079
Speaker 1: sorely out of luck. In the US, the gold Rush

196
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,200
Speaker 1: and the westward expansion led to a fundamental shift in shipping.

197
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,640
Speaker 1: Things like the pony Express that you mentioned earlier, Matt.

198
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,120
Speaker 1: Those things failed, they were bought up or they simply

199
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,960
Speaker 1: went away. Other giants rose, like Wells Fargo, which some

200
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,040
Speaker 1: people may not know. Wells Fargo did not begin as

201
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,600
Speaker 1: a bank. It began as a shipping interest.

202
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, they brought carriages into the mix.

203
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,560
Speaker 1: They also retained that logo iconic. What colors are those?

204
00:11:58,880 --> 00:11:59,480
Speaker 1: Yellow and red?

205
00:11:59,520 --> 00:11:59,800
Speaker 3: Orange?

206
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,160
Speaker 4: I just see the red, okay, just see the red.

207
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,880
Speaker 1: But because of these things, soon it was possible to

208
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: reliably send goods and letters from one end of the

209
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,360
Speaker 1: continent to the next, and the rise of the transcontinental

210
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,200
Speaker 1: railroad played a huge role in that in this country,

211
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,560
Speaker 1: and ever since then, shipping and transportation have evolved in

212
00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 1: step with one another, and eventually this created the massive

213
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,359
Speaker 1: interconnected trade sphere we all enjoy the benefits and drawbacks

214
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:35,239
Speaker 1: of today. This sphere ranges across public entities and private companies.

215
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,720
Speaker 1: Things are carried by automobile, aircraft, cargo, ship, on foot,

216
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,840
Speaker 1: and even occasionally here in twenty nineteen, via livestock.

217
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 4: Nice like beast a burden I mean too bad for

218
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 4: the beast, I guess, which feels like a derogatory term,

219
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:58,400
Speaker 4: but the animals. And think about it this way, there

220
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,640
Speaker 4: is a very very much distinct possibility that the components

221
00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,680
Speaker 4: the things that make up the electronics you're using right now,

222
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,040
Speaker 4: your laptop, whatever it is you're using your phone, maybe

223
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,520
Speaker 4: to listen to this. They have traveled further around the

224
00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 4: world than you may ever.

225
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 3: That's true. That's true. They came a long way to

226
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:16,960
Speaker 3: see you.

227
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 1: Also, we're in a situation such that it makes more

228
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,800
Speaker 1: economic sense for these long trips to occur, more so

229
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 1: than you would think. One famous example concerns fish in Scotland.

230
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:37,920
Speaker 1: It is economically more feasible for fish to be caught

231
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 1: in Scotland shipped to China for processing, you know, to

232
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,800
Speaker 1: filet of the fish and so on, and then shipped

233
00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,720
Speaker 1: back to Scotland than it does to have the fish

234
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,119
Speaker 1: processed in Scotland.

235
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,920
Speaker 4: It's weird, right, yeah, that it boggles the mind.

236
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,079
Speaker 1: It does. And one of the primary players in this

237
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,679
Speaker 1: story is something called containerization, which I know sounds like

238
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,760
Speaker 1: a buzzword, made up term, but it describes this process.

239
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 1: We've all seen those looming rectangular containers on the backs

240
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 1: of tractor trailers on train cars, rusting away in weird

241
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 1: industrial areas, or maybe being repurposed to be a chic

242
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,440
Speaker 1: hipster cocktail bar or something those things are ubiquitous, They're everywhere.

243
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 1: Each one of these shipping containers is a tiny vital

244
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,560
Speaker 1: piece forming the backbone, or perhaps the circulatory system of

245
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 1: the world's trade economy. Containerization basically, it's a system that

246
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,480
Speaker 1: standardizes these containers such that they can fit on the

247
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,240
Speaker 1: majority of things that will transport them. You can fit them,

248
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,520
Speaker 1: You can fit x amount of them on a cargo ship.

249
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 1: From there, you can break up that load of containers

250
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 1: to ship some via tractor trailers. We have a ton

251
00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,400
Speaker 1: of truckers in our audience and people who work in shipping.

252
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 1: So first off, you are unsung heroes. Thank you very

253
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 1: much for keeping this strange house of cards from collapsing.

254
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 4: Absolutely and also shout out to all you lorry drivers out.

255
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 1: There and lorry drivers as well. So this concept of containerization,

256
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 1: this great standardization of shipping containers, dates back centuries, right,

257
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 1: goes back to the seventeen hundreds. I want to say,

258
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,240
Speaker 1: in the coal mining regions of England it really hits

259
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 1: its boom, and it goes worldwide after World War Two,

260
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 1: and this boom has continued. We have the numbers to

261
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:38,320
Speaker 1: prove it.

262
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 4: Yes, in the world of shipping, the cargo ship stands

263
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 4: ahead above all others. It is the king. According to

264
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 4: the International Maritime Organization, ninety percent of everything shipped in

265
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 4: the world, everything shipped in the world, is on a

266
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 4: cargo vessel at some point.

267
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,840
Speaker 1: That's bizarre. Ninety percent of every everything, not ninety percent

268
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 1: of tickle me elmos, not ninety percent of your favorite

269
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 1: vinyl reissues, ninety percent of everything. There are over twenty

270
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,520
Speaker 1: million shipping containers in the world. We actually don't know

271
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 1: how many there are anymore, because we built them so quickly.

272
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,280
Speaker 1: They're somewhere right now as you listen to this, between

273
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 1: five or six million that are on the road or

274
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 1: on the ship at sea, all across the planet. In total,

275
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 1: these cargo containers, as individual boxes, make about two hundred

276
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,440
Speaker 1: million trips per year they get around. This works out

277
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 1: to more than eleven billion tons of stuff. Etches, sketches, volvos, grain,

278
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 1: different cereals, oil, pictures of Christopher walkin, whatever you can

279
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 1: imagine it has been on a cargo ship at some point.

280
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 4: All those stuff they don't want you to know, t shirts.

281
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 1: Right, they're out floating somewhere by Diego Gard as we speak, right.

282
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,399
Speaker 1: So there are some downsides though, because we mentioned everyone

283
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,679
Speaker 1: enjoys the benefits of this, but we also just briefly

284
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,160
Speaker 1: alluded to some drawbacks.

285
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, there are certainly downsides to this whole system. About

286
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 4: ten thousand containers get lost at sea every year. Imagine

287
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 4: that just it fell over the side. Guys, I don't

288
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 4: know what to tell you or all that ship, Eh,

289
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:26,359
Speaker 4: we can't find it.

290
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:34,600
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we see different examples of this in economic anecdotes.

291
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,000
Speaker 1: Sure one of them would be the story of the

292
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 1: rubber Ducks. Did you ever hear about this?

293
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,080
Speaker 4: I've read that book, The Small The Short Book by

294
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,080
Speaker 4: Carl No. I can't remember who wrote it, but it's

295
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,359
Speaker 4: a book about ten little rubber ducks that fell overboard

296
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,120
Speaker 4: when they were being shipped across the sea.

297
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit less than twenty nine thousand rubber

298
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 1: ducks were lost in nineteen ninety two because a cargo

299
00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,159
Speaker 1: ship container tumbled into the North Pacific. I think the

300
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: number was around twenty eighty eight hundred, and the rubber

301
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,120
Speaker 1: ducks were packaged with other bath toys. They were headed

302
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,280
Speaker 1: from China to the US, but the currents took them

303
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:24,760
Speaker 1: and they actually provided a great deal of insight for oceanographers,

304
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,720
Speaker 1: people who study ocean currents and Arctic geography, and they

305
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 1: were able to learn more about how currents functioned because

306
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 1: they just had to follow the ducks.

307
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 4: That's amazing because it's literally the story of Eric Carl's

308
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 4: ten Little rubber Ducks. Well, this story I've been reading

309
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 4: to my son forever.

310
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 1: Well, it appears it is nonfiction, or at least based

311
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 1: on a true story. There's another drawback, which is that

312
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,920
Speaker 1: these cargo ships generate a great deal of pollution. They

313
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:02,000
Speaker 1: emit an estimated seven hundred nine ninety six million tons

314
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,439
Speaker 1: of carbon dioxide that was in twenty twelve, and while

315
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 1: the number, while people are working to bring that number down,

316
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 1: it's it's a hard economic cost. There's not really way

317
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 1: to move around it. Because you see, despite those drawbacks,

318
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 1: despite the fact that we lose ten thousand containers at

319
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,600
Speaker 1: least of stuff a year, it's still more efficient to

320
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: move it that way than it is by shipping it

321
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: via land or air.

322
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:31,440
Speaker 4: Just the way.

323
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 1: It's geography, it's the way the continents work.

324
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 4: It's geography, and it's mass. Like if you even if

325
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,199
Speaker 4: you have giant airplanes that can carry a proportion of

326
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 4: what would be on a shipping container ship. That's so

327
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 4: weird to say you couldn't carry as you know, you

328
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 4: couldn't get as much across for the price. It's it's obvious,

329
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 4: and you obviously can't get to certain parts of land

330
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 4: from other parts of land when there's a giant ocean

331
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 4: in between.

332
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:04,639
Speaker 1: Right until we create a global road network, Yes, this

333
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 1: is a possibility, but it's still very very much not plausible.

334
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 1: One day, one day it's yeah, it's it's strange because

335
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 1: compared to the energy expended moving stuff via plane or truck,

336
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 1: shipping is actually far less damaging in terms of greenhouse

337
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 1: gases released when you ship stuff via cargo ship. If

338
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 1: you send a container from say Shanghai to France, you

339
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 1: emit fewer greenhouse gases than the truck that takes the

340
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 1: container from one place in France to another. Wow, it's

341
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 1: weird when you think about it. It's it's again it's

342
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: a problem of scale, and there is absolutely no question, folks,

343
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: this is a massive, gargantuan industry. It employs millions of

344
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,719
Speaker 1: people and it moves billions of dollars. The world economy

345
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,200
Speaker 1: as we know it would be gone without global shipping,

346
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 1: right we would enter a dark age.

347
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 4: It is the backbone right now of our society, whether

348
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 4: whether we want to believe that or not.

349
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,360
Speaker 1: It's weird, yeah yeah, just as the US economy would

350
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: collapse without shipping companies or state institutions like the usps UPS, FedEx,

351
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 1: of course, and so on. But here's our question for today,

352
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 1: and it's a question we encounter anytime we contemplate any

353
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 1: system of this size. What if there's more behind the curtain.

354
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: What doesn't the shipping industry want you to know?

355
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 4: And we'll get to it right after a word from

356
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 4: our sponsor and we're back. Then let's get in to

357
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 4: the people who want to either take stuff away from

358
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 4: our shipping containers or smuggle something through our shipping systems.

359
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. This industry is cartoonishly crooked.

360
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: It is so crooked and so corrupt. And let's look

361
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: at a couple of specific examples here. First, smuggling. Doubtlessly,

362
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: smuggling is one of the first things we think of

363
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: when we think of crime and the transportation of goods.

364
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,360
Speaker 1: It's a big business, and business is great for smugglers

365
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 1: and traffickers. Whether we are talking the smuggling of drugs,

366
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 1: the smuggling of weapons, the tragic and heartbreaking trafficking of people.

367
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: It's probably not going to stop. With the sheer volume

368
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 1: of activity occurring at every single second, at every single

369
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 1: level of the global trade network, authorities are at the

370
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: very least hard press to discover, apprehend, and prosecute the

371
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: criminals involved. It doesn't help right that, unlike street level dealers,

372
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: groups or individuals with the capital to operate international smuggling

373
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: rings are not only overwhelmingly well off, they're often connected

374
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: to state level actors or enormous private entities also known

375
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: as the same people who are tasked with on paper

376
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: stopping these crimes from recurring.

377
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 4: Or even low level people within those systems that they

378
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 4: know are at certain strategic places. Yikes. So let's consider

379
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 4: a specific story to kind of look closer into this.

380
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 4: So let's go back to July twenty eleven, the Guyan,

381
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 4: which is a ship. It was seized by US customs

382
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 4: after authorities found twenty tons twenty tons of cocaine aboard.

383
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: Or was it eighteen tons?

384
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 4: Oh, it makes a massive difference, doesn't it.

385
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: This is so this happens pretty frequently in drug busts,

386
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: and I think it's hilarious, and I think a lot

387
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: of people listening are going to agree with us here.

388
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 4: Why would two to go missing?

389
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed? Have you ever noticed when there's

390
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: a large bust of illicit drugs the numbers get kind

391
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: of kind of fudgy real quick.

392
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,959
Speaker 4: It was twenty, but you know, we just reweighted it

393
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 4: was just eighteen. I guess we made an error.

394
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: You know, heat of the moment.

395
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 4: Cheez, that's a yeah. We're not accusing anyone here, We're

396
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 4: just saying, maybe it's a bit of a pattern.

397
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: I'm not accusing, I am observing a pattern. Sure, Yeah,

398
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: no one ever. You never see a drug bust where

399
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: someone says, oh, we thought we we thought we found

400
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: five hundred pounds of marijuana, but actually it was five

401
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty. Yeah. No, the number never goes up.

402
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: It always fudges down.

403
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

404
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 4: Anyhow, So let's get back to that twenty or eighteen

405
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 4: tons of coke.

406
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: Right, For comparison, eighteen tons of cocaine, that's about the

407
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: size of three full grown African bull elephants, And that

408
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: translates the cocaine, not the elephants, to an estimated street

409
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: value of over over one billion dollars us yi. So

410
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: yay for customs. They caught this, right, they caught this.

411
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: They seize the craft.

412
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 4: The what is it called, the Mediterranean Shipping Shipping Company's Guyan.

413
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: The MSc Guyang. Things got complicated very quickly. You see,

414
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: the MSc Guyan is a Liberian flagged vessel. That means

415
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: it sales under the flag of the country Liberia. But

416
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 1: it is not owned nor operated by a Liberian company. Instead,

417
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: it's operated by that company. You just give a shout

418
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: out to Matt the Mediterranean Shipping Co. They are a

419
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: Switzerland based global shipping conglomerate.

420
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 4: Hold on a second, So it's the Mediterranean Shipping Company

421
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 4: with a Liberian flag.

422
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: Based in Switzerland, Okay, and they only sort of own it, right,

423
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: It gets sketch and sketcher as we ascend the ladder

424
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: of ownership and profit. The vessel was financed by JP Morgan,

425
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: who what you may recognize from some earlier episodes.

426
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: In New York City.

427
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 1: Right, the two companies structured the purchase of this vessel

428
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: such that the ship was quote, we'll have to unpack

429
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: this owned by client assets in a transportation strategy fund

430
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: run for JP Morgan's asset management arm. What right exactly

431
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: who really owns this at the end of the day.

432
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: Where does the check get sent to? You know what

433
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: I mean? Where does it whose bank account ultimately collects

434
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: whatever margin of profit is here. It's a strange question.

435
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 1: JP Morgan, by the way, has at the time of recording,

436
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: refused to release a public statement regarding this.

437
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 4: And look, we don't know where all that coke came from,

438
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 4: but it was not us.

439
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: Right, and said, yeah, look guys, we had nothing to

440
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: do with that twenty six tons of cocaine. And they're like, oh,

441
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: we thought it was eighteen.

442
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 4: They go, oh, interesting.

443
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:10,719
Speaker 1: Wrong number.

444
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: Uh this is J. D.

445
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: Horgan.

446
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's not the one you're looking for.

447
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're technically a river bank, not a financial institution.

448
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure you're looking for HSBC. They're they're the ones.

449
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 4: It's HSBC, is what I said It HSBC.

450
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: I can't hear you, so I hope that's how it works.

451
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: You know, at some point in history there was someone

452
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: who was part of an otherwise legitimate financial institution, maybe

453
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: in the days of like telegraphs or something, who totally

454
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: faked that their equivalent of a phone wasn't working. Yep,

455
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: oh sorry, we thought it was a then a dot, then.

456
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 4: A dash, our dinner daughter was just not working.

457
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: And then the great depression. But it's true they've been

458
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: tremendously cagey about this because we see this interlocking system

459
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: of ownership which, without profiling too hard, I want to say,

460
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: it feels very much like a shell game. It feels

461
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: very much like a way to maximize profit while avoiding liability, sure,

462
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: which is what companies do well.

463
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 4: And they just happened to get caught.

464
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: They just happened to get caught. Yeah, this single bust

465
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: is part of an ongoing investigation, so we don't know

466
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: all the details about it. You can see some low

467
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: level and some pretty high level crew members who were

468
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: implicated in bringing a board parcels of cocaine off the

469
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: coast of Peru, but as far as the person who

470
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: organized brokeered the whole deal. The reason the coke interest

471
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: in Peru knew where the ship was going to be,

472
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: and the reason people in the ship got I think

473
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: one guy got just as little as fifty thousand dollars

474
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: for helping load it on, which sounds like great money

475
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: until you know you're going to jail. Yea, these people

476
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: have been implicable. There's no one has found the puppet

477
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: master yet. And while this was a big bus, this.

478
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: Was not.

479
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: Anomalous by virtue of simply being a drug bust because

480
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: the US Customs and Border Protection claims that they are

481
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: busting people left and right every day.

482
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: The US Customs and Border Protection claim that they sees

483
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 4: an average or seized an average of four thousand, six

484
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty seven pounds of narcotics every day. That's

485
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 4: a lot, not quite eighteen tons, but it's a lot.

486
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 4: And again we've talked about this before. It really is

487
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 4: just one of those things that cannot occur without help

488
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 4: from somebody somewhere, some kind of corruption.

489
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 1: Right, this leads us to another dark side of the industry,

490
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: and we'll dive into it after a word from ours sponsor.

491
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: We're back.

492
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: So the shipping industry, probably since the first boat was made,

493
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 1: or the first moon, not the first boat, since the

494
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: first laws were made by some authority saying thou shalt

495
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: give me a cut right of whatever this pie is

496
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: in question. Ever since that moment, corruption has existed every

497
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: time somebody makes let's think of it as light and

498
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: shadow right. Every time somebody makes a law that exists

499
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: in the light, a law with transparency, you know what

500
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: I mean, there is another practice, an analog to that,

501
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: a shadow law that will exist in the criminal community

502
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: or in the underground. That's why we have all these

503
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 1: old tropes about honor among thieves and whether or not

504
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: it exists. That's why you hear MAF you also talk

505
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: about a code of one sort or another. Because human

506
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: beings inherently attempt to impose order upon any sort of

507
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: interaction with the world around them or with the people

508
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: they meet. The shipping industry is going to be cursed

509
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: with corruption for the foreseeable future because of a few

510
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: very easily explained reasons. First, the crews in these vessels

511
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: have a really tough job. They make thousands of stops

512
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: at ports all around the world every year, and these

513
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: ports are in numerous countries, very very different countries. Every

514
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: single one has its own distinct set of laws and

515
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: legal systems, and as anyone can assure you, the rule

516
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: of law is not the same in every country. Like

517
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: here in the US, if you are not wealthy, then

518
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: the rule of law is pretty secure. Odds of getting

519
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: in trouble for murdering someone are pretty high. Again, if

520
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: you're not wealthy. If you are wealthy, then you have

521
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: a different set you have a set of shadow laws,

522
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: just like we described before. But these folks, these captains

523
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: and crews of these ships will not only go to

524
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: places with vastly different sets of laws, social mores, legal systems,

525
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 1: things like that, different institutions they have to interact with,

526
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: they also encounter tremendous bureaucracy, right.

527
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean in all kinds of different ship inspections.

528
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 4: Every time, or mostly when they go into port, there's

529
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 4: going to be some kind of inspection, some kind of

530
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 4: immigration or customs that they have to deal with just

531
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 4: by even entering a port. And there are also you know,

532
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 4: different environmental concerns in the varying countries that you're going

533
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 4: to encounter as well. And you have to imagine, you know,

534
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 4: during these inspections, right, you're on this ship, you're the captain,

535
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 4: you're the crew. You show up. Now, this whole other

536
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 4: team comes through and runs these inspections, right, and a

537
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 4: lot of times, just to get through that inspection, or

538
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 4: maybe even to have someone look the other way, that's

539
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 4: just hypothetically about some discrepancy in the weight of certain cargo.

540
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: Sure, are the screams coming from a container?

541
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe that too. But you would have to bribe

542
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 4: this team of people coming in from whichever country you're

543
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 4: going to.

544
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: And even if you are not shipping anything illicit, even

545
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: if you're not doing anything illegal, you may still have

546
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: to participate in this bribery system just to get through

547
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: your date. Because refusing to pay these I'm going to

548
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: keep calling you seeing shadowy. Refusing to pay these shadow

549
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: taxes will lead to at the very least delays, sometimes

550
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: huge delays. And you have to understand when these people

551
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: are operating, that last port of call that they just

552
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: went to is one in a series of ports, so

553
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: there's a very very high chance of a domino effect

554
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: if they don't get to leave on time. They are

555
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: also punitive fines that will be legally defended by the

556
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: country in which the port exists, and these finds. Can

557
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: you know, It's like they used to say about law

558
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: enforcement officers in the US that if an l e

559
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: O wants to write you a ticket for something, they

560
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: will find something. While that may not be one hundred

561
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: percent true, it's absolutely true, and a lot of these ports.

562
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: The worst case scenario is that refusal to participate in

563
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: this bribery system can result in physical harm to the crew,

564
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: maybe even fatalities. The typical euphemism for bribery, we hope

565
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: you enjoy this, and we hope you have examples of

566
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 1: your own is a facilitation payment. A facilitation payment?

567
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you doing No, that's right, that's great. We're

568
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 4: gonna get you out of here like aty split. We

569
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 4: just got to get this little facilitation payment going first.

570
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 4: What I mean, I'm just gonna hold my hand out

571
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 4: here and wait for you to facilitate.

572
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, I'm facilitating in the payment. I thought you were.

573
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: I thought this was a payment for you to facility.

574
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 4: You don't understand. This is my this is my job,

575
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 4: and what I'm saying is in order for me to

576
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 4: do my job, I need a little facilitation.

577
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 3: Oh you know.

578
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, now, this is my first time in the

579
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: Porto Lago, sir, But I.

580
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 4: Has nothing in my hand still.

581
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: Oh oh oh oh gosh, okay, hang on, let me

582
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: let me make a phone call real quick. But actually

583
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: it would probably be much.

584
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,959
Speaker 4: Smoother than Yeah, yeah, it really would be.

585
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a decide to a friend of

586
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: mine whom I will not identify, actually did participate in

587
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: low level smuggling from Russia to the US. Not for

588
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: not for some sort of nefarious reason.

589
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was snowting right. He was just coming back

590
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 4: to see some people in life.

591
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: Again, this friend of mine actually was getting some pre

592
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: communists takeover children's literature. Okay, because this friend of mine

593
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: is a nerd, so snowden right, And this friend of

594
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: mine had never broken a law in the US of

595
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: which I am aware, and this friend of mine had

596
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: never broken a law in any country, but they said

597
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: it was very easy to break the law in Russia.

598
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: And they have following complaint. Again, Russian, Russian speakers, people

599
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: have lived in Russia, please let us know if this

600
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: jives with you, because Matt and Paul and I have

601
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 1: never been right, Paul, you haven't been a okay, correct, correct?

602
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to check. So here's what this

603
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: person says. This person says they heard that they could

604
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: buy some of this literature, and technically it's illegal for

605
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: them to take it out of the country. But again,

606
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: they're not moving heroin, they're not moving weapons.

607
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 3: Of war or anything.

608
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: So they go to essentially a black market location to

609
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: buy these books, these children's books, and they said it

610
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: was the best customer service experience they had in the

611
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: country because apparently at the time this person was there,

612
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: there are all kinds of things we take for granted

613
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: in the West, niceties that just do not exist there,

614
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: and one of them is that here here, if you

615
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 1: go to a business, they will make change. If you're

616
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: paying for something that's ten dollars and thirteen cents and

617
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: you just have a twenty dollars bill, they'll make change

618
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 1: for you. In Russia, apparently that was not the case.

619
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: You were expected to have exact change. Now again, I

620
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 1: don't know, I cannot first verify this firsthand, but this

621
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: person said when they went, no one would smile at

622
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: them when they were, you know, in a legal transactional situation.

623
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: But when they went to the black market thing, the

624
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: people were all pretty nice and multi lingual, and this

625
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: person speaks Russian, so anyway it shouldn't have mattered. And

626
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: then they happily made change. Yeah, And the person said,

627
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the black market just works better and

628
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 1: more efficiently depending on where you are in the world.

629
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: And as much as I hate to admit it, I

630
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: think that person is onto something.

631
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 4: I think the people whom your friend encountered were just

632
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 4: reading him and or his or her compatriots who were

633
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 4: with her or him, whoever it was. I think the

634
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 4: smiling thing was just a tactic to read whether or

635
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 4: not they were police.

636
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: Oh, I see, Maybe it's just reflection of energy too, right.

637
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 4: Maybe I don't know.

638
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: So. So anyhow, we know that bribery exists and proliferates

639
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: throughout the world. The shipping industry is no different, and

640
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 1: anybody who has traveledively depend on where you've gone, you

641
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: have found yourself in a bribery situation. Like in some

642
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 1: parts of the world, it's just part of a police

643
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: officer's job to propose and accept the bribes, and woe

644
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: betide those who refuse to play the game. According to

645
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 1: someone named Cecilia Muller tor Brand, who is the program

646
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: director at the Maritime Anti Corruption Network or MACIN, a

647
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: facilitation payment is a low level payment made to a

648
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: low level official to perform a routine task, a task

649
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: you were already entitled to. And this is so common

650
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: that other countries you know that participate in the shipping

651
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: industry have some names in slang for these sorts of payments,

652
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: and frankly, several of them are pretty funny.

653
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I very much enjoy China's which is tea money,

654
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 4: lot of tea shipping, just give me that extra tea money.

655
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: Or the one in Brazil, which is just called make

656
00:39:59,200 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: me laugh.

657
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 4: It sounds like a greeting like, ah, yes, hello, welcome

658
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 4: to Brazil. We hope you're enjoying the port. Now make

659
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 4: me laugh.

660
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: And then, because we're an audio podcast, Matt here you

661
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: extended your hand just like that port authority member in

662
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: oh Okay, I thought it was Lagos.

663
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 4: He was in Jersey.

664
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: I misread the accent. So another you know, just for comparison,

665
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: many of us might be more familiar with police bribes.

666
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: In Guatemala. They say something like, well, you know, could

667
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: you give me some money to help me buy some

668
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: chick lits.

669
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 4: I've heard that as well, actually weirdly specific. Huh yeah,

670
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 4: wait where did you hear I've got some friends in Jersey?

671
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: Now friends in Jersey also sounds like a euphemism, is it not, Yeah,

672
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: you got some friends in Jersey? I think it might

673
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 1: be they said make me laugh, They said, you would

674
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: make me laugh. So we want to hear your slang

675
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: terms for this kind of bribery. In the meantime, we

676
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 1: want to establish that while there are some states, many

677
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: states honestly legitimately working to address the endemic corruption in

678
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: the shipping industry, most of the burden of this falls

679
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: on the gigantic private shipping conglomerates, and those conglomerates, in

680
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: many cases themselves can benefit from these same corrupt practices

681
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: that they may lament in public or forward facing literature

682
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: or statements.

683
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 3: You know.

684
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: So what does this all mean?

685
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 4: Well, I guess ultimately it means the official numbers that

686
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 4: we all get to look at, the statistics, the estimates

687
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 4: for global shipping trades are all at least somewhat inaccurate

688
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 4: because we are not exactly sure and we cannot be

689
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 4: definitely sure about how much stuff is being traded and

690
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 4: how much it's all cost. We get the estimates from

691
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 4: the conglomerates. Essentially, we don't.

692
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: Know how much shadow money exists out there.

693
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, stuff that is either willingly or unwillingly being traded

694
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 4: and for how much money.

695
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: And there is genuinely no workable solution at this time

696
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: legalizing drugs, of course is I think it's clear to

697
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: say that would be one of the biggest, most profound

698
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: steps toward crippling criminal cartels, at least in South America

699
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: and in maybe a couple of maybe in the Golden Triangle.

700
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: But that won't stop the bribery, because corruption and smuggling

701
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: are not simply dependent upon illicit drugs. The problem is

702
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 1: that no one is incentivized to play straight here. There

703
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: are state level agencies and institutions doing their level best

704
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: to staunch the bleeding. But this is a grievous wound.

705
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: And I don't know, man, I feel kind of weird

706
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 1: ending on just such a negative note. I mean, it's true.

707
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: Everything we said is true.

708
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'll give you one solution. Anyone and

709
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 4: everyone working around that ship of containers has to be

710
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 4: paid so much money that the thought of being able

711
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 4: to be bribed to bring something onto that ship and

712
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 4: then losing you know, their wealth that they get from

713
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 4: working there, they would be incentivized to not break the rules.

714
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: But wouldn't that cut into the profits for the conglomerates.

715
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 4: Well maybe over you know, Yeah, you're right, it totally would.

716
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: But what about the ports then, because that's where a

717
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: lot of the corruption comes out.

718
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 4: You're right, So you would need turrets that had an

719
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 4: AI sophisticated enough to identify when a bribe was occurring.

720
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 4: Oh nice, and then they could shoot sleep darts rapidly

721
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: at any possible bribery.

722
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: And we can do we can be adventurers and make

723
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: a documentary about the death of the illegal shipping industry

724
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: in Brazil and we can call it. No one laughs

725
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: in Rio. I just like, I like the gravitas of that,

726
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 1: but I don't know if it's accurate.

727
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love it. No more laughter.

728
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is too delving a little bit too

729
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 1: far into psychology here, But just really briefly, over the years,

730
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: you and I, in the course of research and in

731
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 1: the course of experienced conversation, have pretty well and pretty

732
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: definitively established that happiness is a comparative or relative term

733
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: for this species. Multiple studies have shown us that below

734
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 1: a certain financial threshold, people are not just happy. It's

735
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: not enough to know that you make money or that

736
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: you make a wage. People don't want to just be

737
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: satisfied if they work in a group environment. They want

738
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 1: to know that they have more than the other person,

739
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 1: or at least as much. So if if you and

740
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: Paul and I were were working in a totally different

741
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: industry and we all have the same job, and we all,

742
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: let's say, we all made I'm just fifty thousand a year,

743
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: and we were happy as clams. I don't know where

744
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: that saying comes from, but that's us. We're super happy.

745
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: And then we find out that one of us makes

746
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: fifty five thousand dollars a year, we are very much unhappy.

747
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: Nothing for our personal experience has changed in any way whatsoever,

748
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: save for the knowledge that someone else is doing a

749
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: little better than us. And that is why, that is

750
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: why I argue that bribery at this point will always

751
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: exist because it's not enough for many people to be

752
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 1: happy with themselves. They have to feel like other people

753
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: are doing worse.

754
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 4: Interesting point capitalism, baby, Yeah, I don't know if I

755
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 4: don't know if that bears out for everyone.

756
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 1: Perhaps you're right, it's too broad a brush many people.

757
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you.

758
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: So let's add just one more for fun. Because we

759
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about the post office, but we

760
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: didn't go into detail. Did you hear about the conspiracy

761
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: theory proposed by President Trump back in twenty eighteen.

762
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 4: I did I heard tell via some tweets.

763
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct, that's correct. The President in twenty eighteen

764
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 1: claimed that the company Amazon, with whom I think many

765
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: of us are familiar, is costing the United Postal Service

766
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: billions of dollars, and the US taxpayers are footing the bill.

767
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 4: Bezos.

768
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 1: He had one tweet about this, and then he doubled

769
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: down a few days later and he said, quote, I

770
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: am right about Amazon costing the US Post Office massive

771
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: amount money for being their delivery boy. Amazon should pay

772
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: these costs plus and not have them borne by the

773
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: American taxpayer many billions of dollars. Post Office leaders don't

774
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: have a clue, or do they. We looked into this,

775
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: and luckily for the US taxpayer, the numbers don't seem

776
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: to bear out. The US Post Service did lose two

777
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: point seven billion dollars in twenty seventeen, that's per PolitiFact,

778
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 1: But it wasn't because it was delivering stuff for Amazon. Actually,

779
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: the opposites the case. Those kind of parcel delivery deals

780
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: they make with private companies like Amazon, accounted for seven

781
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: billion dollars of the nineteen point five billion dollars in

782
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: revenue that the Post Office made during that time. So

783
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: what that means is that those kind of companies are

784
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: forming a large amount of the revenue generated for the

785
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: post Office. Are they getting these price breaks that the

786
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: ordinary human wouldn't get, Well, yeah, absolutely, because they're also

787
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 1: bringing billions of dollars in business.

788
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.

789
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, losing two point seven billion to make nineteen point

790
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 4: five billion. It's weird.

791
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: Well you know again, it's the it's that high level

792
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: math where it almost becomes imaginary.

793
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 4: Oh, it all is, certainly if it's got a million

794
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 4: or a billion. Okay, sure, whatever you say.

795
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

796
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts.

797
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 3: That's right. Let us know what you think.

798
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: You can reach you to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where

799
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 2: we exist on Facebook x and YouTube on Instagram and

800
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: TikTok or Conspiracy Stuff Show.

801
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 4: If you want to call us dial one eight three

802
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 4: three std WYTK that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes.

803
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 4: Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

804
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,479
Speaker 4: we can use your name and message on the air.

805
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 4: If you got more to say than can fit in

806
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 4: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

807
00:48:58,239 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 4: fashioned email.

808
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: We are the entities that read every single piece of

809
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the

810
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

811
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 4: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

812
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

813
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.