1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. When you're a kid 2 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: and you're growing up out in the heartland, rural areas, 3 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: you know what you spend most of the time doing, 4 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: other than probably working on property that your parents have. 5 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: You go to school, there's no city really to go 6 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: into and hang out at. You rely heavily on your 7 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: friends for entertainment. You entertain one another, actually, and those 8 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: forms of entertainment can involve any number of things. Sitting 9 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: around a bonfire, having a few beers even under a age, 10 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: riding around in the back of your buddy's pickup truck, 11 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: just going to spontaneous parties at someone's home. But you know, 12 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: even with all that going on on, you still there's 13 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: a level of safety and familiarity you have with that 14 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: location that you grow up in. Today, we're going to 15 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: discuss a death that I guess now has been under 16 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: investigation for near about a year. It's a death that 17 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: occurred out in rural Oklahoma. It's a death involving a 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: young man who was found his body was found broken 19 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: and bleeding on the side of a road, wearing shoes 20 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: and nothing else but the shoes that he was wearing 21 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: didn't match. As a matter of fact, one of the 22 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: shoes belong to someone else. Today we're going to talk 23 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: about the death an autopsy of no oppress Grove. I'm 24 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: josephcott Morgan and this is body Bags Dave. We got 25 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of rural Now. 26 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: We live in a rural area. I'm not that dissimilar 27 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: from Oklahoma where Noah press Grove grew up. He's nineteen, 28 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: graduated from high school, and he's at an end of 29 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: summer labor day, twenty second birthday party all rolled into 30 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: one on this weekend. The reason we're talking about Noah 31 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: press Groves death is because his autopsy has come out. 32 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: Police are still on investigating this as if it's a murder, 33 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: and yet it doesn't fit into a hit and run, 34 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: and the best that police can come up with is 35 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: that maybe he fell out of the back of a truck. 36 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: The injuries don't match that either. So today we're going 37 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: to talk about the death and the autopsy of nineteen 38 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: year old Noah press Grove. But before we do that, 39 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: I want to say a very quick hello and thank 40 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: you to Jennifer Williamson Ward. She is a friend of 41 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, and she sent a message to us about 42 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: this story, and Jennifer, I have to tell you I 43 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: mentioned it to Joe and in the world that we 44 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: live in terms of on the air radio and TV 45 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: and what have you and podcasting, this is a story 46 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: that Joe has covered extensively from Court, TV to Nancy. 47 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 1: To News Nation. 48 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: I'm sure. I mean there's a crime related show, they 49 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: asked Joe, especially when it deals with something along the 50 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 2: lines of what we're getting ready to talk about, and 51 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: that is the death of a nineteen year old man who, 52 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: by the way, I've never seen a laundry list of 53 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: injuries so severe when there was not a murder investigation. 54 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: That's the thing, isn't it. You know, Because the injuries 55 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: are so extensive that he was presenting with at autopsy, 56 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: I would imagine that the pathologist that's doing the examination 57 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: is scratching their head and they're thinking, well, where do 58 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: I begin, you know, because when they would have gotten 59 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: this young man's body, there would have been some external manifestations, 60 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: as we know that there were or relative to injuries 61 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: that could be evidenced externally. But you know, when I 62 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: can almost see because I've had to look on my face. 63 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: I can almost see the look on everyone's faces when 64 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: they started doing post mortem X rays on this kid's body, 65 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: and it would have been so glaringly obvious the trauma 66 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: that this kid sustained. Whenever you have a case like 67 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: this day, where you've got so much trauma, it's important 68 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: and it's almost like a game plan. You know, if 69 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: you go into a game, a big game, there's so 70 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: many moving parts. You need to have enough data on 71 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: your side to understand what you're going to do. Because 72 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: if you just go into a case like this randomly 73 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: without doing any kind of pre investigation or a pre 74 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: examination of the body, an external examination which includes X rays, 75 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: you bump around in the dark and you're going to 76 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: miss something. So if you can go in with this 77 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: idea of Okay, this is what the radiographs are showing me, 78 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: this is the information that has come in from law 79 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: enforcement that we're at the scene, this is information that 80 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: they have gotten through interviews. You need to be armed 81 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: with this because Dave, this is so complex, it's so intertwined, 82 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: and you don't know where where one group of injuries 83 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: stops and the other one starts, and the big thing 84 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: here is sequencing. How did all of this occur? Because 85 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: there's so much here. 86 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: So when a situation arises like this, in this particular case, 87 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: where there had been a party taking place over a 88 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: weekend and Noah's body is found at five point fifty 89 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: three am on September the fourth, now we're dealing with 90 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: last September. His body was found on the side of 91 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: the road. He was curled up in the fetal position, 92 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: naked except for as you mentioned, the mixed match shoes. 93 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: One was not even his Passing truck drivers saw him 94 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: and reported it called nine to one one. Now, Noah 95 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: has a brother that had heard I don't know how okay, 96 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 2: but there was a lot of you know, calls are 97 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 2: being made early on. 98 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 1: Of course at truck it's a small town and news travels. 99 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: Course, he knew something had happened, that Noah was whatever, 100 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 2: and he goes to the scene. Now, by the time 101 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: his brother gets there, Noah's body has already been covered. 102 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: But he said he could recognize Noah from the shape 103 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 2: of his body, you know, on the ground. He was 104 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: in the fetal position, and the blood had soaked through 105 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: the sheet that they had covering him, and just so 106 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,559 Speaker 2: you know that that would be the sheet whatever laying 107 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: on top of his body, on top of some area 108 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: that had blood, because if it was I tend to 109 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: think of seeping as going down, not up. But his 110 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: brother was talking about certain things that he saw at 111 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: the scene, and I in coming to this blind because 112 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: I didn't want any kind of preconceived notions as to 113 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: what had taken placetcha and his brother said, I saw teeth, teeth, 114 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: and I'm okay, he's finding teeth and a pair of 115 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: shorts are folded near him. He's nude, he's in a 116 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: fetal position. I find teeth near his body, his teeth 117 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: and a pair of shorts folded near his body. So 118 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: here we go, Joe. It's just before six in the morning. 119 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: Police show up. They start doing the investigation. All right, 120 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: he's been at a party during the course of the weekend. 121 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: The injuries to this young man, we're going to have 122 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 2: to go through them very carefully because they are so extensive. Yes, 123 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: and I've never seen this in reporting these types of 124 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: and we've reported plenty situations where there was a weekend party, 125 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: a five breaks out, a couple of guys gang up 126 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: on somebody, there are some bad tales to tell like 127 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: that this is if this is one of those, there 128 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: were probably ten different on their own fatal injuries to 129 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: Noah Press Grove that you have had this. 130 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: Yeah it was. And you know, before we step off 131 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: into the world of the injuries, you got to talk 132 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: about the scene. This is a rural, isolated area, and 133 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: the one thing that sticks out to me first off, 134 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: the comment of the brother. I've worked cases and it's 135 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: well documented in all of the literature. You can see this. 136 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: When you have motor vehicle accidents, there are people you 137 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: know famously. Okay, let me start off here. There's always 138 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: there's this precept that is always put forward that any 139 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: time a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle, they're automatically 140 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: knocked out of their shoes. I've had so many people 141 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: tell me that over the years. It doesn't always happen. 142 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: You know. It's it's kind of like you know, people 143 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: talking about sue sides and the weapon being found away 144 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: from the body, like the body is supposed to be 145 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: holding the weapon every That doesn't happen every time, Just 146 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: like people are not always knocked out of their shoes, 147 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 1: that doesn't always happen. But I can tell you what 148 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: does happen many times with clothing in particular? Is it 149 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: clothing if you think about the spinning of the tires 150 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: when a body is struck, a pedestrian is struck many times, 151 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: if the body is captured beneath the undercarriage of the car, 152 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: the clothing will be twisted and ripped off of the body. Dave, 153 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: it's not what the brother said. He said, Noah's nude 154 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 1: in a fetal position, and we'll get to the teeth 155 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: in a second. But his undershorts were found on the 156 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: road folded. Now, I don't know what had happened prior 157 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: to Noah's brother arriving at the scene. But if I 158 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: hear that somebody's underwear are folded, and I don't know 159 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: how to validate. I don't know if the police have 160 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: remarked about this and explained this, this thing that the 161 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: brother was witnessing, how do undershorts wind up getting folded, 162 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: Particularly if you're thinking, well, maybe the got ripped off 163 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: in the accident, or whatever it is it happened. Because 164 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: whatever happened involved a tremendous amount of impact, I don't 165 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: I'll put it to this way. I've actually worked parachute 166 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: failures where the parachute failed to deploy that have fewer 167 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: fractures than this kid had. Wow, let that sink in 168 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: just for a second. I mean, and that's and the 169 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: reason is, it's pretty simple, is that when a body 170 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: is impacted, it's not generally impacted on multiple locations with 171 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: this amount of force to generate underlying fractures. Okay, I'll 172 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: just kind of plainly say that. So that leaves us with, 173 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: you know, a great, big, you know, kind of question 174 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: mark here, wondering what was the generator, how did this happen? 175 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: How did he wind up in this isolated area? And 176 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: was there something more that may have occurred at a 177 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: party that Noah attended, or did it occur as he 178 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: was leaving the party and wound up at this location? 179 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: Dave you ever heard that saying? It says, and it 180 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: varies from time to tom nothing good happens after eleven PM, 181 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: or nothing good happened after midnight. I know Noah was 182 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: at a party and kind of in and out. The 183 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: details are a little bit murky, a little, yeah, a 184 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: little and I was being calm and so there was 185 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: a party. We know that and it was a celebratory 186 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: event and there were many young people there. Can you 187 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: kind of run this top because Tom Tomming is everything 188 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: in this case, Can you kind of break this down 189 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: for us and give us an idea. 190 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: The murky part of it is that there was social 191 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: media being fed pictures and what have you of all 192 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 2: of the partying that was going on. A girl turned 193 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: twenty two, somebody that all grew up with. We hit 194 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: this in the first segment about it being close knit. 195 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: Everybody knows one another. When everybody knows one another, you 196 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: have a tendency to have smoldering problems. You got an 197 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: issue with somebody and maybe you're not tight with them. 198 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 2: You're tight with these people, but now you're in together 199 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: and I just don't like that guy. You know, never 200 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: have hated him in third grade. You know he wiped 201 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: a book around me or something. 202 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: You know. 203 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it stays with you in a town like 204 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: in an area like this. But this party was going on. 205 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: It was a it was well first of all Labor 206 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: Day weekend. It was a twenty second birthday party for 207 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: a girl. It was an end of summer party for 208 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 2: the adults. Most of these kids were out of high school. 209 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: Noah had graduated a year previously, and he was looking 210 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 2: at a future that included possibly joined the military. That's 211 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 2: what he was considering. So they gathered together at this 212 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: party over a weekend. Now, my first thought when I 213 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,599 Speaker 2: saw it was, this is one of those kind of 214 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: keggers that you go to on a Friday night and 215 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 2: you know, it kind of goes on all weekend. 216 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: You party, you listen to music. 217 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: The next day, you wake up whenever, and you know, 218 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: pretty much go right back to it. But that's not 219 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: what happened. It was a multi day event that took place. 220 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 2: But the party of yours left, or at least Noah 221 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: left and went home and cleaned himself up and then 222 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: went back the next night. During the course of this 223 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 2: weekend Labor Day weekend event, Noah did have a disc 224 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 2: well back up. Noah and five other guys, six guys, 225 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 2: rode this big ATV. It's referred to as a ranger vehicle, 226 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 2: an ATV ranger vehicle. Noah and five other people are 227 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: on this ranger vehicle and they had an accident. It 228 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: wasn't bumping into a car, it wasn't bumping into a pole. 229 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: It wasn't hitting a curb. It was a rollover incident. 230 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: First of all, these ATV Ranger vehicles are not cheap. 231 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: They are adult toys, yes, and it was an adult 232 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: toy that got rolled over. The way they make it 233 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: seem is that Noah might have been the driver of 234 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: said vehicle. I don't know if that's the case, but 235 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: one thing we do know is that it was bad 236 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: enough that when he came up dead, that was the 237 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: first thing people thought, Hey, he got hurt in this 238 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: ATV accident. 239 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: He did get hurt, but. 240 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: Not bad enough that it required him to go to 241 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: the hospital or anything. He was hurt, but he went 242 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: back to the party. 243 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: You know, Dave, when you have events, and you mentioned 244 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: a rollover event, and these Ranger vehicles that come in 245 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: a couple of different configuration you have two seater or 246 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: four seater. They make this thing sound like it's like 247 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: a four seater. They've got roll bars on them. So 248 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: if the thing tips over and they're talking about rollover event, 249 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: just because there's a rollover doesn't mean that you're not 250 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: going to sustain injuries. And I have seen I have 251 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: seen people, Dave, that have been involved in motor vehicle 252 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: accidents where they get up and they are walking, talking, 253 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: fully oriented to time and space, and eight hours later 254 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: they die. And that's because something along the way was 255 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: clipped internally, generally some type of smaller vessel, and it's 256 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: a slow lead internally, and then all of a sudden, 257 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: it's classic. What you begin to see is that suddenly 258 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: they become very sleepy, speech becomes slurred, they become disoriented, 259 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: and then the next thing you know, they're out cold 260 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: on the ground and they've got this kind of it's 261 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: almost like a death rattle they have because they're slipping 262 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: off into a coma because they're losing blood and the 263 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: oxygen level, the supply to the brain is dropping precipitously, 264 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: and it's a horrible thing to witness. This does, in 265 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: fact happen, So we can't completely discard that possibility that 266 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: it's you know, we talk a lot about the totality 267 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: of injuries that an individual sustains, that it might not 268 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: be just singularly a one time event. It could be 269 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: a combination of events, and I'm sure that that's what 270 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: the pathologist was trying to consider in this, and I. 271 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: Think it's important to note that it was about enough 272 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: accident that it was brought up that he was not hurt, 273 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: because it's the assumption that if you say, well, he 274 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: wasn't hurt, he actually must have shown some injury, but 275 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: not bad enough to quit. You're nineteen, you're tenpee telling 276 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: bulletproof for crying out lot. 277 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: Oh, oh my gosh. Yeah. And look, if you here's 278 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: the thing, and this is kind of kind of cool. Scientifically, 279 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: if you sustain let's say you sustain an injury, and 280 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: maybe you don't think much of it at the time, 281 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: it hurts upon initial impact. What your body begins to do, 282 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: there's a trauma response in your body. So let's just 283 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: say you have a broken rib, you get popped in aside, 284 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: and you don't know that necessarily that this is some 285 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: kind of fatal or lethal event, but yet it hurts. 286 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: But it's something it's not something that you know is 287 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: going to get you down your knees, all right. But 288 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: what the trauma response in the body is is that, 289 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: first off, it's going to hemorrhage, and secondly, it's going 290 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: to swell. And we know for a fact that it's 291 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: swelling or the echomosis that surrounds that damaged tissue, Dave. 292 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: It takes a prescribed amount of time for that to happen. 293 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: So when you're examining somebody in the morgue and you're 294 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: looking for these injuries and trying to interpret them, one 295 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: of things you're going to look for are these little 296 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: breadcrumbs to say, Okay, you know what, this injury might 297 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: be older than these other ones that occurred at the 298 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: time of death. First off, if something occurred at the 299 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: time of death, it's not going to be presenting with 300 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: the amount of swelling. For instance, that something that had 301 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: happened hours before or a day before may be experiencing 302 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: it'll it'll look completely different. How do you make sense 303 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: of all of this when you have, say, for instance, 304 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: old injuries that are now potentially being coupled with new 305 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: injuries that are discovered at autopsy. Maybe these things are 306 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: even recognized out on the scene. How is it that 307 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: you're able as a scientists to delineate between what is 308 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: older and what is newer. Sometimes those answers are not 309 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: as obvious as you might think that they are. I 310 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: don't normally do this sort of thing on this podcast, 311 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: but I got to tell you, I got to give 312 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: you a word of warning. What we're going to talk 313 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: about right now is even by bodyback Sanders is kind 314 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: of graphic, but it has to be stated. And I'm 315 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: going to try in my own little way to interpret 316 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: and give you an idea of what might could generate 317 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: these types of injuries. And in many cases there are 318 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: multiple ways that these types of injuries can be generated. 319 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: But you get the police theory that he was thrown 320 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: out the back of a truck that was moving jail. 321 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: I want you guys to pay attention to these injuries 322 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 2: because you're not going to find if you were thrown 323 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 2: out of the back of a truck, you're going to 324 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 2: have road rash over your legs, You're going to have arms, 325 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 2: You're going to have a lot of those type And 326 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm saying that because I've been thrown out of the 327 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: back of the truck. I'm not by friends throwing me out. 328 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: We actually were being stupid and I fell, and I 329 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 2: know the injuries I had and we weren't. You know, 330 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: they were all over and my legs took the brunt 331 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 2: of it for the most part, these feet, ankles, what 332 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 2: have you. And he does not have those types of 333 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: injuries that actually match up to someone that was pitched 334 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: out of the back of a truck. I'm just saying 335 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: that because as we break these down, that's what I 336 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: went into it thinking happened, and I went how did 337 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 2: they even say that out loud? Take a look at 338 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 2: this list, Joe, that you're going and I want you 339 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: to explain just right off the bat, ten broken ribs. 340 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: With ten broken ribs is really something that and you 341 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: have to think about the orientation of these fractures. Are 342 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: they all married up? Like on the horizontal plane they 343 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: kind of match up as you go down the rib cage, 344 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, like when you're going down the fifth rib 345 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: and the fifth rib, are they both concurrently fractured? And 346 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: does it approximate the same anatomical location. If that's happening, 347 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: then maybe you took a full on impact of a 348 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: motor vehicle striking you in your chest and you're on 349 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: your knees. Probability of that is very low because you 350 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: would have other associated things that you would find with that. 351 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: The other thing that you get with fractured ribs is 352 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: something that folks may or may not have heard of before. 353 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: It's called a flail chest. And what happens is is 354 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: that when your ribs are fractured, they're almost free floating 355 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: within your chest cavity, and you'll get multiple lung punctures, 356 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: and your lungs and your plural spaces, which are the 357 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: area around your lungs, begin to fill with blood. So 358 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: you have that going on in and of itself with 359 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: the ribs. And to get ten broken ribs, Dave, is 360 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: something that I don't know that I don't know that 361 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: you would get from a single event. You might get 362 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: that from a single event, but there's not going to 363 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: be this many other associated injuries. Just think about it. 364 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: Just think about it. If you were a kid and 365 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: you were in a tree house, okay, and you fell 366 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: out of the treehouse, you're going to impact on one 367 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: location on your body, maybe the back of your head, 368 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: maybe your shoulder, maybe your hip. Maybe you're going to 369 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: bend your knees under you, you know, Lord help you, 370 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: and land on both of your knees from a height. 371 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: But that's a single point of impact, Dave. We had 372 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: stuff here that at least implies that they are like 373 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: multiple impacts with a significant amount of force, because you're 374 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: talking about underlying fractures, Dave. 375 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 2: And that's fine. I said earlier that there are at 376 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: least ten injuries that, on their own, with nothing else, 377 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 2: could have been fatal. Go through the rest of this show. 378 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 2: I'm going to sit hearing shut up because I really, 379 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 2: for the life. 380 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: Of it, I think I think the thing that. 381 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: Is is frustrated by what the police have said. 382 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: I it is frustrating. I think probably no way. 383 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: This didn't have that happened by jump falling out of 384 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 2: the back of a truck. 385 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: That did not happen. Well, maybe if you fell out 386 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: of the back of a truck multiple times, is what 387 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: I think I'd like to say. 388 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, let me hop back up and try that again. 389 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:29,959 Speaker 2: I didn't break my leg this time. 390 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 1: Come on, I know. And that's that's kind of you 391 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: know what you're thinking about. And I know that they're 392 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: thinking about this. The me is certainly thinking about this. 393 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: Is it possible to generate and listen again, I go 394 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: back to this idea that they've left the scene unclassified. 395 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: You know, they have not classified it. And that's that's 396 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: a big you know, that's a big piece to this 397 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: because you know, the cops can say basically whatever they 398 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: want to say about what they're seeing at the scene. However, 399 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: if the me is not signing off on this thing 400 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: with a particular classification, that gives me an indication that 401 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: they're still wanting more information that they're scratching their heads over. 402 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: I think probably the thing that jumps out the most 403 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: is that, you know, they talked about this one central 404 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: impact to the skull, which Dave I got to tell you. 405 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: It sounds like, and it's a it's apparently a very 406 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: very extensive injury, but it sounds like a single impact 407 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: that is almost being described as a It seems to 408 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: me is almost like a depressed skull fracture, which means 409 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: that it's not the skull is not just simply fractured 410 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: where you fracture like if you have a Bowld egg 411 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: and you kind of crack it, you know, and it 412 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: creates like this kind of curvelinear, you know, manifestation, whereas 413 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: we're talking about if you take that egg and press 414 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: it in, if you've ever done that with a bold egg, 415 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: you press it in on the sides and it literally 416 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: depresses and you have it's almost like a that it 417 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: creates and it kind of spiderwebs out. That kind of 418 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: sounds like what they're talking about that sounds like a 419 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: depressed skull fracture. How do you get that? Well, I 420 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: guess you could get it if you hit just right 421 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: on the back of your head on the road. But 422 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: you know, I've seen depressed skull fractures with baseball bats, hammers, pipes. 423 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: I've seen people with depressed gull fractures that have been 424 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: pistol whipped. I'm not saying any of that happened, but 425 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: just that injury alone, that injury alone, just standing all 426 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: by itself, is a lethal injury. Because dude, when they 427 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: opened up his skull, there was a copious amount of 428 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: blood that poured out of a cranial vault. What does 429 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: that mean to you, Well, it means that you've got 430 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: multiple vessels within the skull that are fractured. And if 431 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: you like that one, I got one that's even worse. 432 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: And this is something I have never mentioned on this 433 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 1: pod cast. If you will put your fingers adjacent to 434 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: your external ear canal on both sides, If you put 435 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: your your index fingers on both sides, imagine drawing a 436 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: line through the floor of your skull. Right there. Noah 437 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: has got what sounds like a hinge fracture. And the 438 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: hinge fracture literally involves going all the way across the 439 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: floor of the skull internally, so that and these fractures 440 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: are amazing. When you see them, you get an idea 441 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: of how much force is involved when you remove the 442 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: brain after you've taken the skull cap off where this 443 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: other fracture would have been. When you remove the brain, 444 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: that's where all this blood is coming from. You grab 445 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: the top of the skull up by the forehead where 446 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: you've made your incision, and the back of the skull. 447 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: You can actually open the skull along the floor of 448 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: the skull and it looks like a giant mouth like 449 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: moving like this, and it goes all the way across 450 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: many times, either anterior or right across the foreme and magnum, 451 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: which is where your spinal cord dumps down into your 452 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: spinal column. And I've seen it involved in both locations, 453 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: and it's like this gaping maw that's in there, Dave, 454 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: that created that you have to have so much force 455 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: in order to generate that insult alone that it's it 456 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: gives you pause. Okay, Hine. Fractures don't occur all the time, 457 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: and when you see them, it's like, you know, if 458 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: you're standing there with the forensic pathologists, they'll say, oh 459 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: my god, we got a hinge fracture. You know, it's like, okay, 460 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: you get the photography person over there. You're going to 461 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: want to take a picture of this. Not that you 462 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't otherwise, but the pathologist is going to want like 463 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: a tremendous number of photographs taken of this, because this 464 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: is a significant finding. You look at that in and 465 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: of itself, all of that head trauma is just absolutely amazing. 466 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: Now he's got brained damage in a sense that it's 467 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: traumatically related. So you'll have both in dwelling hemorrhage within 468 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: the brain itself. There's external damage to the brain. There'll 469 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: be a lot of blood, coagulated blood more than likely 470 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: that is just resting on the surface of the brain 471 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: and certainly within the dura sack, which if you think 472 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 1: of the dura sac that encompasses the brain, it's almost 473 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: like a placenta. A matter of fact, that it actually 474 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: if you take the dura matter and laid alongside a placenta, 475 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: it looks a lot like that. It's kind of a 476 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: protective back that encases the brain itself. It's a wash 477 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: and spinal fluid. It kind of lubricates the brain because 478 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want your brain just sitting inside your skull 479 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: because the edges are so rough in there, and so 480 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: the dura acts almost like a shock absorber for the brain, 481 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: so you would have a tremendous amount of blood contained 482 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: in there. There were four separate areas of trauma on 483 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: the organ, the brain itself, and not to mention this trauma, 484 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: we talk about cerebrospinal trauma. Okay, you hear doctors talk 485 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: about this a lot. So his Noah's head and brain 486 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: were not a skull and brain were not just impacted, 487 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: but also his spinal cord. You get down to the 488 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: sea one, you've got multiple cervical vertebra and the C 489 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: one is what classically we refer to as the atlas. 490 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: If you think about the Titan Atlas from Greek mythology, 491 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: Atlas is that gigantic being that is holding up the earth. 492 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 1: And the reason they called C one the atlas is 493 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: because it is literally where the skull is resting, and 494 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: it's supporting from a skeletal standpoint, it's supporting the skull 495 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: that the C one Dave in this case is actually displaced. Okay, 496 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: So it's been it's been knocked out for a lack 497 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: of a better term in Layman's. In Layman's terms, it 498 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: has been displaced. So it's kind of knocked knocked out 499 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: of alignment. As a matter of fact, some have described 500 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: this as a displacement that might be consistent with what 501 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: you would see in a judicial hanging, which leads to death. 502 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: So if you you know, when people talk about the 503 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: snapping of a neck when they fallen from a height, 504 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: the C one C two is what's impacted, and you 505 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: know when people are are in judicial hangings, that's what 506 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: I'm talking about. I'm not talking about anything self inflicted here. 507 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: The goal was that that would fall from such a 508 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: height that it would displace the C one and C two, 509 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: which are a critical level in the spot that if 510 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: those things are displaced in it's incompatible with life, okay, 511 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: because it impacts those basic those basic functions that are 512 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: required just for the autonomic nervous system to fire, you know, 513 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: like keeping your heart beating and doing you know, respirations 514 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: and all that other regulatory stuff. So that that has 515 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: been impacted, for lack of a better term. Uh, we've 516 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: got Uh. What they found was a skin on the 517 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: left side of the scalp had been torn away, off 518 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: of the brain, off the forgive me, off of the bone, 519 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: So it means it's been ripped from the skull itself, 520 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: which again is kind of a friction related type of event. 521 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: You know, I guess you could say that somebody could 522 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: have traumatized him individually, but most of the time you 523 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: see something like that, that's the idea of the dynamic 524 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: of somebody perhaps rolling down the road. Uh. And it's 525 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: it's it's it goes from an abrasion to a tearing 526 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: laceration where it's kind of rip ripped through. And as 527 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: the police began to work the scene where Noah's found, 528 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't just teeth. You know that. We're out there 529 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: at the scene and we'll get to that in just 530 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: a second. But you know, Dave, they actually found a 531 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: clump of hair and skin away from the body in 532 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: the middle of the road, which means that's probably hair 533 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: that is attached to a portion of the scalp that 534 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: was torn away it was laying there. Again, that requires 535 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of force. You've got the buttock. The 536 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: right buttock is traumatized. Here's another thing that you know, 537 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: we talked about teeth, both upper and lower. So you're 538 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: talking about your maxillary teeth, which are your upper teeth, 539 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: and your mangellary teeth, which are embedded in your jaw. 540 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: Your lower teeth they're broken and they're in fragments, and 541 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: you've also got upper and lower teeth that are strewn 542 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: across the roadway. Dave. You know when when people talk 543 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: about having trauma to the mouth and they lose a tooth, 544 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: what do they say. They generally don't say I got 545 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: my teeth knocked out. They say I got a tooth 546 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: knocked out. Right, Brother, he's got teeth that are fractured 547 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: and missing, Okay, that are strewn about. Now we have 548 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: to think that again, this could be a high velocity 549 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: impact event where he may very well have fallen on 550 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: the ground. But you know, my thought was, well, it 551 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: obviously involves a head more than likely that depressed area 552 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: in the skull that generated the initial injury. But now 553 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: you've got teeth that are coming out of his head. 554 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 3: Like a curb stomp. That's well, yeah, I don't know, 555 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 3: But with fractured teeth. It's certainly I'd like to know. 556 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 3: I think one of the things I'd be very interested 557 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 3: in knowing, and I don't necessarily have this information. I 558 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 3: would like to know what kind of trauma existed relative 559 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 3: to the exterior of the mouth, like the lips and 560 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 3: the jaw. 561 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 2: Now, he did have a cut on his lip, and 562 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 2: he had a cut on his tongue. But can I 563 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 2: back up to something absolutely sure? Okay, you mentioned the 564 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 2: clump of hair that was found in the middle of 565 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 2: the highway. Well, there was a clump of hair that 566 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 2: was observed on the right buttock without blood or tissue, 567 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: and it was specific to that without blood or tissue. Yes, 568 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: And it was different than the clump of hair that 569 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: was found in the middle of the road. It was 570 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 2: like this that he was tortured the hair and it 571 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 2: was put there for a reason. 572 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And who's to know what the dynamic 573 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: of this event is. He is nude, so how how 574 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: with hair from the head? Presumably, And they don't specify 575 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: what the nature of the hair is. I mean, it 576 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: might be pubic hair, I guess, Yeah, could be hair 577 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: off of his chest. I have no idea, but they 578 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: do make a point of that where they're talking about 579 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: a clump of hair. Clump of hair gives you an 580 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: idea that something has been pulled loose right, that it 581 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: has been taken out at the root perhaps or broken 582 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: off superior to the root ball, and that this has 583 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 1: been left behind. How does that hair? And I think 584 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: a question I would ask as a forensics guy, I'd 585 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: want to validate that hair. I'd want to know was 586 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: it Noah's hair? First off? Was it human hair? Was 587 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: it an animal? We're talking about it out in the 588 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: wild and there's animal hair on the roadway, you know, 589 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: I'd argue that, I'd say, well, how do we know 590 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: the provenance of the hair? You know, what's point of origin? 591 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: What species is it? Is it his? Does it? Does 592 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: it look like his hair color? Is he missing hair 593 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: that had been torn out? 594 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 2: Other than the possibility animal could have done it. 595 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: I don't know that. That's just it. And to this point, 596 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: I don't see any evidence that an animal has been 597 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: involved in this. I would just like to know the 598 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: origin of it. You know, all we can do in 599 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: forensics is document what we see there. It's hard to 600 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: really extrapolate further than that, but it is it is 601 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: certainly an interesting finding. I don't know that I've ever 602 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: seen that kind of phraseology before that. 603 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 2: I haven't, and I read these things all the time, 604 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 2: and I have done stories where a hair was pulled out, 605 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: you know, it just sounds like the most painful thing. 606 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 2: Of course, on this list of things, I'm still beyond 607 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 2: the pale Joe. But the he's bleeding out of his ears, Yes, 608 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: got teeth thrown everywhere, And bleeding. 609 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: Out of the ears is consistent with the hinge fracture, 610 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: by the way, and you would probably also, yeah, and 611 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,760 Speaker 1: you'd probably if looking closely, you could probably see cerebral 612 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: spinal fluid. You know how they when you're a kid, 613 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: and if you take a first A class, they tell 614 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: you to look for a clear fluid coming from the ears. 615 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: That's that's what I'm talking about. So you'll get this 616 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: kind of co mingled with a hinge fracture. You'll see 617 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: kind of a commingled cerebral spinal fluid along with blood. 618 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: And it's got kind of a straw color to it. 619 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, pathologists will describe it as 620 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: having a straw like appearance, the color of straw, and 621 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 1: it's tinged with blood, so that would come from from 622 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: that area. And again that goes to something has happened 623 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: that has compromised the structural integrity of the spinal column 624 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: with this displacement. And brother, it wasn't just as C one. 625 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: You know, I failed to mention that he's got a 626 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: fractured C two, which obviously is just beneath the C 627 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: one and C six. We're going down the column now. 628 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 1: C six and C seven were also fractured to varying degrees. 629 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: And there's multiple features on each one of these things. 630 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: You've got these horns that are on it, and there's 631 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: various anatomical features where it can be fractured. Again. You know, 632 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: vertebral bodies, just in and of themselves are one of 633 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,399 Speaker 1: the most They are a very robust bone. And when 634 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: I say that they're thick, they they're therefore I mean, 635 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: think about what they're protecting, man, I mean, they're protecting 636 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: your spinal column. It's just like the skull, particularly on 637 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: the back, is very robust and thick. It's it is 638 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: that way for a very specific reason. So you've defeated 639 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: the impact has essentially defeated this naturally occurring structure within 640 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: the body that is meant to take a tremendous amount 641 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: of punishment. So how, you know, how does it account 642 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: for all of these other insults that he has all 643 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: over his body? And again, you know, look, I've got 644 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: a state full disclosure here. You know, he's got what 645 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: they're describing as grazes. There's abrasions, and you've got them 646 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: on multiple, multiple surfaces, which many times are associated with 647 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: rollover injuries. So if you've got scrapes and abrasions and 648 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: they're kind of wrap what they call wrap around injuries, 649 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: that's traditionally what you're looking for. So if the if 650 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: the vehicle is spinning, the body will be spinning, okay, 651 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: and you hit asphalt gravel, you're going to get this 652 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: horrible dynamic that where you'll have these upbraided and they'll 653 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 1: they'll be linear many times, and they'll cut a wide swath. 654 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: You know, I'll never forget. I had a cousin of 655 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: mine who was literally run over by a dump truck 656 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: when he was working on a levy in Louisiana. He 657 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: had the tire tracks across his Uh. He's got this 658 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: great picture of tire tracks running across his chest. Uh. 659 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: You can actually his tandem wheels and you can see it. 660 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: And he survived, but he had all those and I 661 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: remember it from when I was a little kid. We 662 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: were amazed. I mean, we thank god that he survived. 663 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 1: He wound up becoming a preacher, and yeah, it does. 664 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: And you could see all that one. Yeah, you could 665 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,439 Speaker 1: see all these abrasions, and that's it was. The tire 666 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: tread itself left an impression. But it's also braiding the 667 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: skin as it's rolling over. You take that and you 668 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: think about the dynamic of a body flying through the 669 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 1: air and spinning makes contact with a rough surface like 670 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: a roadway, You're going to get those same kind of rasions. 671 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: Dave, Well, Joe, Now, there were other things that were 672 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 2: on his body that they were able to determine that. 673 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 2: We're in various stages of healing abrasions and scabs and 674 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 2: what have you. But with have you ever seen have 675 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 2: you ever seen anything like this where there wasn't some 676 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,919 Speaker 2: type of mechanical failure with a car, a boat being 677 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 2: thrown from a building, of any number of things. This 678 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 2: is ostensibly a kid, a nineteen year old young man 679 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 2: leaves a party after an argument and is by himself 680 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,919 Speaker 2: and ends up with all these injuries. Police are saying 681 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 2: they're not investigating it like it's a murder. There By 682 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 2: the way, for those who think there was a hit 683 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 2: and run involved to cause these types of injuries, there 684 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 2: was no, uh, there's nothing indicating there was a hit 685 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: and run. There were no parts of a car. 686 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: No skid marks, nothing, nothing. And look one other thing. 687 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,879 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I don't mean to jump on you here, 688 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: or not jump on you, but interrupt you. When you 689 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: think about a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle, there's 690 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: something that we refer to as bumper marks. So if 691 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: you're talking about being struck in the thigh or the 692 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,399 Speaker 1: lower legs, you'll have a definitive line. And think about 693 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: a bumper on a car, it makes sense. It's two 694 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: parallel lines like this running hors and the horizontal plane. 695 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: They're striking you if you're standing erect and you can 696 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: clearly see that many times, Dave, I've even seen grill 697 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 1: impressions on bodies where I saw I can't remember sink 698 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: it was a buick Where I saw the buick the 699 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: buick emblem literally pressed into the skin. And so that's 700 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: a classic finding and grill marks too classic finding of 701 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 1: a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle. But you're you're 702 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: not hearing You're not hearing this, and so I think 703 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: that's their default position is falling out of the back 704 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: of a truck as opposed to being struck by a 705 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: vehicle that is going through the person out me through literally. 706 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: But you know where where you've got a static individual 707 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: stand in the middle of the road and they're struck 708 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: by vehicle, those injuries are going to look different. And 709 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: this is this is almost and here's here's another theory. 710 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: I really, I really wonder Dave all of these injuries 711 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: that he sustained. I'm wondering, I'm really wondering if he 712 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: if he had come out of a vehicle wound up 713 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: on the roadway. Was there another vehicle that passed by 714 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,439 Speaker 1: that didn't see him in the middle of the night 715 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: and then ran over him again that has happened. It's 716 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,760 Speaker 1: a dark road. He was not found until the next morning. 717 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 1: There was a trucker that found him, you know, there 718 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: in the light of day. I think that all of 719 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: these things have to be factored in to the totality 720 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: of these circumstances to try to understand it, and then 721 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 1: there's this specter that people keep talking about. I don't 722 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: know how to either validate it or invalidated. I'm in 723 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: the same position I think that the medical examiner is 724 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: in just talking. Of course, I don't have that level 725 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,280 Speaker 1: of responsibility here, but that's the pieces of the puzzle 726 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 1: for the me to put this thing together so that 727 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: they can actually come up with a ruling where they're 728 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: going to say, Okay, this was an accident, this was 729 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: a homicide, or however they're going to come down on 730 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: this thing. I wonder what it will be that will 731 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: push them toward that decision. Because I got to tell you, Dave, 732 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:05,840 Speaker 1: all this data, all this data, the timeline, the information 733 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: about an ATV accident that still remains a mystery, and 734 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: the combination of all of these injuries and their documentation 735 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: feels as though we still don't have any more answers 736 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: than when we first started. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and 737 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,280 Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks