WEBVTT - Wayne Forte 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:14.080 Welcome back to the Bob Leftsett's podcast. My guest today 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:19.520 is longtime agent Wayne Quorte. Wayne, you emailed me that 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:23.680 it was the fifth anniversary of NIDO, the National Independent 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.920 Talent Organization. Tell me what NIDO is. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:37.040 NIDO is an advocacy group formed during COVID right at 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.720 the outset actually, which is now about one hundred and 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:47.559 forty members of independent managers and independent talent agents, so 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:49.599 basically talent representatives. 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.440 Okay, And how did it get started and what does 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:53.720 it do? 0:00:55.480 --> 0:01:00.120 So just as COVID set in, I should say, ar 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.800 who was a twenty twenty I guess in April, maybe 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.640 second or third week in April, when I guess most 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.440 of us realized that we're going to be home for 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:14.160 more than two weeks. Frank Riley from High Road Touring 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.319 sent an email out to a whole bunch of agents. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.920 You know. Copied on the email and asked he said, 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.440 I said, actually that he had had some conversations with 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:31.240 some of the large promoters. He was involved with a 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.600 call conference call possibly and they were, you know, discussing 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.360 what was going to happen, you know, what what could 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.920 be done? What was you know, the you know, the visions, 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.440 the idea, what was ahead of us, you know, that 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:48.120 kind of thing, things that we were thinking about at 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.080 home individually, all on our own, and asked if we 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.800 were interested to have a conference call to discuss it, 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.360 which everybody immediately said yes, because we all had no 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.240 idea what was coming up and how we were going 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:01.800 to stay open and how we were going to stay 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:07.240 in business. So we had one or two calls, you know, 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:09.080 like a check in, and then we checked in like 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:11.560 a week or so later, and you know, maybe on 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:17.280 the third call or so, somebody said, hey, maybe we 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.880 should form an organization, and which was interesting because we 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:26.840 were really at the time about sixteen sixteen or so 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.440 agencies at the time. Let me back up a second, 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.440 So these were all agencies at that point, so about 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.480 sixteen of us roughly agencies, and I think there were 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:39.960 nineteen people because a couple of them had two people 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:47.160 on the call. We were all competitors day to day, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.160 competitors spoke to you know, maybe a couple of us 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.040 spoke to each other, but really, you know, didn't spend 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.079 any time together, didn't really you know, didn't go out 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.840 to dinner and hang out, so to speak. You know 0:02:57.880 --> 0:02:59.560 some of us, some of us were friendly, but I'd 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:03.160 say sixteen we weren't necessarily and what had happened was 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.680 due to this you know pandemic. We all realize that 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.000 we're in the same box or the same boat, and 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.200 all of a sudden it became kind of a brotherhood. 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:21.000 Okay, it's independent. Who is independent and who does not 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:22.760 qualify as being independent? 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:29.480 So the independent definition is you know, a little bit loose, 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:33.720 but not at the same time. So it's no, no 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.320 internationally owned you know agency, So not like an agency 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.560 here that's owned or controlled by a group in London 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:48.160 or Canada. Let's say, no corporates, you know. No, it 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.080 has to be at least fifty one percent minimum fifty 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:56.040 one percent owned and operated. So it can't be you know, 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.200 something where it's just a you know, an adjunct or 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.760 a you know, a subdivision or whatever you want to 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:08.080 call it of a corporate. We can't be controlled or 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.760 financed by a fund or a bank. We can't be 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:12.560 a public company. 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.080 Okay. Of the one hundred and forty members today, how 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:18.800 many agencies. 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:22.520 Is that roughly half? So what happened from the initial 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.919 start was as we when we decided to form a 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:34.400 you know, let's form an organization. We immediately discussed bringing 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:38.280 other people in. Initially we talked about bringing managers in, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:43.800 tour managers, artists, basically all or any independence that were 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:46.080 kind of out there, you know, they needed a lifeboat, 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:47.960 so to speak, because at this point we were in 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.719 survival mode. We weren't looking to thrive, we were just 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:56.599 looking to survive. So we started by you know, picking 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.719 up all these people that you know around us that 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.039 we did business. But at as we defined it to 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:05.520 become an organization, and as we set our sites to 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:12.960 jump in with other organizations to start lobbying our representatives 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:19.120 for financial help for aid, we brought on lobbyists. 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.719 Well, well, well, let's low down a little bit. You 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.800 formed the organization's lobbyists costs money? 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:25.760 Correct? 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:29.680 How organized was NIDO and where did the money come from? 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.480 So yeah, and I am jumping ahead because it's all 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.240 it's all kind of an entangled ball, you know, like 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.200 a bullus spring bull, a string that's all tangled. So 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.760 when we decided to form an organization, we decided that 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.880 we'd be a nonprofit. We knew we'd had to, you know, 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:51.080 form a nonprofit entity. We'd have to hire an attorney. 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.640 This is even before we decided to go into the 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.400 lobbyist mode. So what we did was each of us, 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.960 each of the companies, threw in fourth thousand dollars out 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:06.280 of our own pockets at the time, and we took 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.920 that sixteen whatever it was times for is what sixty 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.039 sixty four thousand dollars. We took that, and then we 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.560 hired an attorney. We knew were eventually we're gonna have 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.919 to have an accountant. We started, uh, you know, we 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:24.960 came up with a name, we started to organize, putting 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:33.560 together a nonprofit organization, nonprofit corporation. We also set out 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:37.120 to form you know, set up bylaws, so we had 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:38.920 to have an attorney to do that. So that's where that 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:43.120 funding came from. And then not too far after that, 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.800 or too soon after that, I should say, we realized that, 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.159 you know, the only way we were going to really 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.720 be able to move forward, if the pandemic was going 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:55.359 to extend for a long period of time, which in 0:06:55.360 --> 0:07:00.080 fact it did, we would have to start talking to 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:03.919 representatives about some kind of you know, some kind of 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.960 financial funding to be able to keep our staff together, 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.120 to be able to keep our businesses together, and we 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.200 joined and I don't want to jump too far ahead, 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.320 but we ended up joining up with other organizations. The 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:20.440 main one was NEVA, the National Independent Venue Association, who 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:25.600 had already been speaking to Amy Klobachar and she was 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:30.920 speaking to Senator Cornyn down in Texas. And those were 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:35.400 the two that you know, really carried the flag for 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:39.280 the bill that later became s VOG, which started out, 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:43.520 as you know, as something else and again jumping ahead, 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.520 but so we started that when we when we realized 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:47.040 that we had to get into that kind of a game, 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.520 we knew that we'd have to get lobbyists. We couldn't 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.320 do it ourselves. And you know, we couldn't get on 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:54.200 a train and go to DC. Nobody was going anywhere, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.280 so it was all gonna have to be virtual, and 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:58.560 we didn't frankly, didn't know where to start. So we 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.040 reached out and we interviewed three different lobbying you know, companies, 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:08.240 organizations basically law firms, and we hired a lobbyist. So 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.960 we had some funds to begin, but we knew that 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.680 we couldn't at the burn rate of you know, a 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:20.720 monthly lobbying fee or consulting fee, if you like. We 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.680 knew that we couldn't sustain. So what we did was 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:30.720 we jumped into fundraising mode. And actually so I at 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.360 the time, we also you know, elected officers elected him 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:35.920 by just saying you're so and so, you're going to 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:37.720 be so, and you're going to be so and so so. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.520 Frank Riley, who put the whole thing together, really spearheaded. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:46.400 It was the president. We had three vice presidents, people 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.240 that were you know, actively doing a lot of things. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:54.920 I became secretary and Tom Chauncey became treasurer, and that 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.920 was our executive committee, and we met almost every day. 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:03.920 We did zooms when I said meet, we met by zoom. 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.840 We did at least once a day. We we did 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.920 the Board of Directors, which the Board of Directors became 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:17.040 the original sixteen. We met at least three times a week. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:18.240 I have to go back to my notes and look 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.760 bit at least and sometimes executive committee we're meeting twice 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:23.640 a day. But we also then broke up into committees 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.120 because we had to. There were people talking to the lobbyists, 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.080 there were people that were talking to the other organizations. 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.520 So we you know, we doled out the responsibilities and 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:37.439 off we went UH and I became, by whatever happened 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.080 stance and timing, I became the head of the fundraising committee. 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.320 And so we set out to raise funds. And what 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.480 we did to initially raise funds was we did an 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:51.680 instrument auction. We went out to managers and artists and 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:57.600 we you know, got UH signed instruments and you know, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.160 something that was laying into closets, something special they never used. 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:06.360 And we did a but three. We did it in November, 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.040 I think late November, so we had enough to get 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.280 through the end of the year. We raised of that 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:15.400 year twenty twenty, we raised money, raised about one hundred 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.400 and thirty thousand dollars. I think we were so one 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.959 hundred twenty hundred thirty. We need probably around one hundred. 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:24.079 So once we did that, we figured we had enough 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.240 to go for the next year, you know, at least 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.040 a year. We didn't Again, we didn't know how long 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.079 it was going to take. So it was really a 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.880 step by step process, and honestly, it was shooting from 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.440 the hip, and you know, meeting challenges every day and 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.000 things that we you know, I never did, I never 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:43.240 petitioned lobby you know, we were on the phone at 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.960 least two or three times a week with senators, congressmen, 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.959 you know, their staffs, you know, giving them the giving 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.440 them the pitch, basically just explaining to him what what 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.800 it meant to have the you know, the talent not 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.440 not around if the agent, the independent agencies weren't around 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.200 the independent venues. You know, they both needed each other 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.480 to survive. And the independent venues you know in a 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.360 lot of markets or a cornerstone, you know, in their 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:15.600 main street or downtown area. We did, you know, we 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.920 did a lot of research. We found a study that 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:24.559 said that for every dollar spent on a ticket or entertainment, 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.800 it was twelve dollars in the local community. So we 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:32.160 immediately calculated the numbers and you know, figured out, you 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.480 know what on an annualized basis. You know, we've just 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.560 looked at you did quick you know, math, what what 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.480 the agencies generated, with the artists generated and multiplied by twelve. 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.120 Came up with some big numbers that the venue association 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.679 did the same. And then there were other groups too. 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.560 There were the you know, there was the theaters, and 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:56.840 then later there was you know, the the museums. Once 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.520 the thing started rolling. You know, Schumer got involved, Centator 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.959 Schumer and there was I think eight stakeholders at the 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:05.800 end of the day, and the eight of them all 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:10.320 had their own lobbyists and all worked you know, in tandem, 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.880 even though independently to get the word out. And you know, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.760 the Venue organization they had about twelve hundred and fifteen 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:20.520 maybe back in those days a thousand, but they have 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.840 almost fifteen hundred members now, and so they had because 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.960 they had so many members, they were able to do 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.480 like localized things, you know. They had you know, like 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:34.000 state committees and you know, regional things and they'd reach out, 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.120 they'd have people reaching out in each state. Obviously we 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.600 had less you know, members, but we tried to get 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:41.360 our members to reach out in their states as well. 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.640 We tried to get some of our artists involved, and 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:45.360 we were lucky to do that that, you know, some 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.160 of them were willing to step up and speak on 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.160 behalf of the whole movement. And then backing up a 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.640 few steps. As we were rolling along, we decided to 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.600 bring members into the organization, sorry, managers into the organization 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.559 for the boards. Then we started we brought in two 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.960 or three managers today we have about half and half 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.400 on the board. Then we had mostly agents, so had 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.280 half and half and membership wise an answer to your question, 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.880 roughly half and half. But a lot of them are 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:18.119 small operators, you know, one person, two people, small offices. 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.560 You know, they're not all big companies. It goes from 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:25.080 red light at the top to one solo operator at 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.800 the bottom. So it really covers the span of independence. Really. 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.440 Okay, let's go back to the beginning. It's easily understood 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:38.760 the costs and the losses of a venue as an agent. 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.600 And as you were on the phone with these people 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:46.240 beginning in April, how hurt were the agents? The perception 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.920 would be your percentage operators. Okay, your costs or overhead 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:52.800 is not that high. What was it like to be 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.240 an agent when everything was shut down? 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.800 Well, immediately you think about and you're right, your percentage 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.880 a percentage operator. But we're a percentage operator that operates, 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.280 you know, day to day. I don't want to say 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.640 hand to mouth, but hand to mouth, like you earn 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.439 you put out, you earn you put out. If you're 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.400 in a major you know, if you're if you're in 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:17.120 a major agency situation or a larger business, management company, agency, whatever. 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.000 You know, maybe you generate enough that you have a 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.040 huge turnover and you have enough to operate and take 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.320 out a huge profit when you're independent. You know, even 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.720 even the larger independence if they're a larger company generating 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.560 more money, but they have a lot more people. So 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:36.960 you know, in my position, I may have four or 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.240 five people. A larger agency may have forty. So even 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.360 though they're generating a larger amount of money, their payrolls 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:45.440 a lot higher, their office space is a lot higher, 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.120 their travel is a lot higher. So obviously during COVID, 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.120 we had no travel, so that knocked that out. There 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.960 was no you know, no t and so that was that. 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.240 But I still had salaries to pay. I still had 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.240 at the time, I had my office space. I was 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.360 trying to negotiate my landlord. He would not give me 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.960 a break. I was paying the rent every month, and 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.360 you're paying your phone bill unless you cut your phones off. 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.080 But you know, we ended up forwarding our numbers to 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.560 individually to each of the people who worked with me 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:19.800 to their cell phones, so you know, those costs were ongoing. 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:21.800 So it got to a point. I mean, there was 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:23.720 some localized stuff, you know, there was like, you know, 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.200 New York State had something, New York City had a 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.520 little something. There was the you know, there was the 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.200 initial thing where you could file for you know a 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.280 certain amount of money. You had to get a bank 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.920 to to approve it. The government you know, uh over 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:43.840 oversaw the or backed up the loan. Uh. There was 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.840 you know, emergency loans you could apply for. I did. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.200 I got an emergency loan. It helped for some of it. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:54.840 I'm still paying it off. But you know, you look, 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:56.760 you're sitting there and you're looking and you're thinking, Okay, 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:58.880 who do I have to lay off? Well? Who who 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.800 do I have to cut back? What I did was 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.120 I stopped taking you know, obviously not obviously I stopped 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.640 taking anything. I immediately stopped taking any draw whatsoever. I 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:13.520 just was living on my savings, and I kept continue 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.560 to pay my staff, you know, as long as I could. 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.360 I figured I'd pay them as long as I could, 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.480 and then i'd I'd give them the opportunity to do Listen, 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:23.720 if you need to go try something else because I 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:25.880 can't pay you anymore, go ahead, if you want to 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:27.480 stick around, that's fine. So I didn't have to get 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.240 to that point, luckily, but that's what I was looking at, 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.920 and all of us were, you know, in the same position, 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.560 unless any of us were independently wealthy and could just 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:39.720 keep floating the whole thing. But you're still at that 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:41.720 point in time. You don't know how long it's going 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.000 to last. Six months, six years. I mean, honestly, we 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.920 all thought it was three weeks and then maybe six months. 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.440 And then at the same time of doing all this stuff, 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.400 for instance, we were rebooking tours. I rebooked the tours 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.120 that I had booked three times during that period because 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:58.920 every time we thought, okay, it's going to be six months, Oh, 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.400 it's going to be a year. And I remember when 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.440 I said, okay, it's going to be next year. I 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.000 remember calling my managers and saying, I'm going to rebook 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.479 it for next year. But honestly, I just have this 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.199 feeling that it's not going to be next year. I 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.399 think it might be two years. So I'm going to 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:16.560 book next year and I'm going to hold the year after, 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.440 which is what I did. And I had to roll 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.280 into that third one. And then I had one client 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.960 who when COVID was kind of over over here or 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.359 just starting to Wane, No, unintended. He didn't want to 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.720 go overseas and I had an overseas tour. He said, 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:34.360 I don't want to be in Europe, and if there's 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:36.760 an issue, I have to shut down and I have 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.719 to ship everything back and pay everybody and you know, 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.800 pay deposits on things. He said, I really don't feel comfortable. 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.720 So I had to rebook that one the fourth time. 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.080 That was the toughest one because it wasn't There wasn't 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.560 an easy out on that one. Everybody wasn't Yeah, okay, fine, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.520 they were like, really, there's other people touring. But the 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.160 fact of the matter is we didn't know. It could 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:58.640 have sparked back up at any time. 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:12.080 Okay, So you form the organization degrees, you know, four 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:17.160 k from each individual. What is the goal? What is 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.480 the agenda? When do you say and what do you say? 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.600 Do you say, Hey, our main agenda is getting money 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.679 for the people working for us and for agencies. We 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.760 need to get it from the federal government. Walk me 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.360 through what the thoughts were then. 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.000 Well, the initial thought was we need to get money 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:39.239 for everybody. That's everybody in the ecosystem. So we were 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.320 again we were working along. At the time, we were 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.280 working very closely with NIVA. That's before we officially join 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.800 the if you want to call it the consortium or whatever, 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.840 right the stakeholders as they called it. We were working 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.600 with them, and there was other organizations working as well, 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.080 and there was a there was a larger bill that 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.359 was truck that was being that was put out, that 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.879 was trying to that they were trying to, you know, 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:05.679 get through that would have covered a lot of the people, 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.679 right the workers backstage and the artists and the and 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.879 the crews and all those people. So initially we were 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.320 pushing for that. We were pushing it and then and 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:17.919 I guess this is one of the reasons why you 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.000 have lobbyists, well two reasons. The first reason is to 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.280 be where you can't be, which is Washington, d C. 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.960 Or wherever it is. You need to be right talking 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.320 to whomever needs to be spoken to. Also, they have 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.840 the relationships just as we would if somebody wants a 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:32.920 tour they call an agent because we have the relationships. 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.840 They have those relationships. So in talking to them and 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.200 discussing it and pushing for it, you know, the feed 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.080 what happens is an interesting process. You know, the feedback comes, 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.880 and somebody will say, and again, I wasn't directly speaking 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:50.520 to the to the to the congressional people's staffs on 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.520 the hill, although we did have you know, our interview 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.960 whatever you want to call them, our interviews or our 0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.280 conversations with them individually set up, you know, strategic to 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.480 push certain areas that we needed to push people that 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:04.560 weren't in favor, to try to talk them into it 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.199 or explain why they should back it, that it wasn't 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.480 just to give money away, but that it was actually 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.720 going to help you know, their constituents and their cities 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.920 and their areas, because they depended a lot of these 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:18.960 you know a lot of these I'm getting to a 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.199 sidebar for a sec but a lot. And I just 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.240 had this. I just came back from a conference. It 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.000 was there Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. It was out in 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.600 mil Milwaukee, and we were talking to some you know 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:29.920 people there and they'll tell you themselves, you know, people 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:34.040 that own restaurants and hotels when when these events happen, 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:36.920 When these concerts happen. Obviously the bigger ones are even 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.000 more important, but even the smaller ones. People come into 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.640 town from out of town, you know, from the suburbs, 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:44.760 or from at fly in from out of town, depending 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.120 on how big it is. They stay at hotels, they eat, 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.480 they take taxis, they park cars, they pay babysitters, They 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.280 go to the local pharmacy, they go to CV, you know, 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.399 whatever it is. They they're there spending money, you know, 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:01.040 because this thing's happening. Take away them movie theater, which 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:02.960 was also going to go down the tube. That was 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.920 one of the other stakeholders. Take away the movie theater 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.560 and take away the concert venue, the theater or the club. 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:11.080 Let's say it's a theater in a club and a 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.320 movie theater. Take those out of the system. And what 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.800 are they going downtown for? To shop? To a restaurant? 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.520 But they go to restaurants when they go to shows. Right, 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:21.919 A lot of people, not everybody, but they're going out 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.200 because they're going out, you know. They're parking in garages 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:25.960 because they're coming in to do that. Yes, some people 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:29.320 come into park to go shopping. But they may come 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.840 in and go shopping. They may come in and see 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:33.639 one of the concerts. They may stay over the weekend 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:35.160 and go to a theater. You go to the theater 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:37.840 one night and the Broadway Theater groups were in on 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:40.760 it too. They were one of the stakeholders. So, you know, 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.320 getting back to your question, we were trying to get 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:47.040 more of a broad thing going, but word came back 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:49.320 to us that it wasn't going to go through. That 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.359 was the word from the hill. They said, you can 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:52.960 spend your time doing it if you want, but it's 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:55.200 not going to pass. They said, there's this other bill 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:57.520 that looks like it's going to pass. It it's more focused, 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.280 it's more on the you know, the venue use specifically 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.879 because of the reason I just explained to you. You know, 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.480 you take all those venues away, and in some towns, 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:08.800 you know Sixth Street in Austin, Texas, what happens if 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:10.520 all those clubs are out of business? There is no 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.840 Sixth Street, right, You take some of these you know 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:18.040 clubs out of business, you know the Greenwich Village, right, 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:21.879 all those clubs go out. You get some pizza places 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:23.720 and some restaurants down there. But what else you're gonna 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.879 do down there? No jazz, no pop, no you know, 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.320 in indie music or whatever. So so that bill was 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:32.919 seemed to be that, Yeah, that one bill seemed to 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:35.480 be or thought of a bill. Proposal of a bill 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:40.320 seemed to be gaining traction, so we focused ourselves on that. 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:44.440 We figured, we've got to cover something, you know, we've 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.800 got to be able to keep this thing going as 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.080 best we can, because at the end of the day, 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.920 if there are no tours, those other people and there 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.720 are no venues the other people were trying to help 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.480 aren't gonna have jobs anyway. They're gonna be looking for 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:04.439 other work. So this at least keeps them in a 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:07.000 place where they can have a job, you know, the 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:10.040 potential of having a job. So we decided to jump 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.720 on that bandwagon. And that's where the you know, where 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.199 as I said, these eight major stakeholders started focusing was 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:19.200 to try to get this through and then the you know, 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:20.280 in the end it did go through. 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:23.159 Okay, you talk about the consolat ship and you talk 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:27.960 about the stakeholders. There's NEVA, there's NITO, who else, if anybody. 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:30.600 There was an organization I think called NATO, which was 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:33.680 the I think National Association of Theater Owners, right and 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:36.960 that and that was I think movie theaters. Uh, there 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:40.199 was the Broadway League or a Broadway group. Right, there 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:43.880 were Broadway theaters right there with that group. Later on 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:48.119 there was the museums and the aquariums. I don't know 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:50.120 if they had a specific group, but there was that. 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:53.720 That was a that was a Senator Schumer thing for sure. 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:56.720 I'm trying to think there was eight of them. I 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:57.880 don't remember them all off hand. 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:01.240 So in a perfect world there we kum bay ah. 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:05.120 But certainly Broadway tends to look down on certain things. 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.080 Certain things generate more money as agents. How big a 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.040 seat did you have at the table? Into what degree 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:11.760 we listened to? 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:15.960 Well that was the interesting thing, Bob. So how big 0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:17.800 a steed I don't know, But the reality is we 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:20.600 had a seat, and we never did and even if 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:22.399 it was a small seat, we had a seat, and 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:25.520 we had a voice, and it was listened to. And 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:28.240 we had to just not sit back and let the 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:31.080 lobbyists do the talking because really they have the seat 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:35.200 right at the table on the hill. But we got 0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:37.399 you know, as I said, we were on the phones, 0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:40.119 and we were when we broke up into groups. You know, 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:41.880 our people from New York would get on the phone 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:44.159 with the New York representatives, people from Nashville would get 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.280 on the phones with the Tennessee representatives. I live in Connecticut, 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:49.600 That's where my home is. I was on the phone 0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:52.480 with the Connecticut people right and on the call. I 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:56.000 arranged the call, and I had a couple of theater people, 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:59.080 I had a promoter or two I had myself. So 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:01.680 the idea was to bring you know, the different groups 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:04.000 together so they could hear from all of us. They 0:25:04.000 --> 0:25:05.720 could hear from the theater directly, they could hear from 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:07.600 the promoter directly. They can hear from the agent. Oh, 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:09.800 and they had a manager. So we tried to have 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:12.080 as many you know, people as we could on the 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:16.240 on the phones and they listened, so we had a voice. Yes, 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:17.159 we did have a voice. 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:21.280 Okay. When the bill was ultimately passed, where were the 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:24.000 agencies in this and how did it ultimately play out 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:24.600 with the money? 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:28.200 Where were the agencies? What do you mean by where 0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:28.920 were the agencies? 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:32.080 Okay, there was a pool of money. You had to 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:36.040 apply for the money. Correct, there were all these stories. 0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:38.720 You heard for sure, they're going to run out of money. 0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:41.560 Then you heard that not enough people were applying at 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:43.880 the end of the day. How did it work out 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:44.880 for the agencies? 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:48.760 So the agencies and the managers, Okay, the talent, let's 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:51.160 call it talent representatives. Okay, let me step back one 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:54.639 more step, just to clarify or whatever add to the story. 0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:59.119 So when we focused in on talent representatives, agents and 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:03.000 managers did so when we set up the organization because 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:07.760 our lobbyists suggested to us that when you're dealing with 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:10.280 the hill, you need to be again, you need to 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:17.520 be focused. So talent representatives, agents and managers, no matter 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:22.159 what sports music wouldever have the same NASIS code, okay, 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:24.720 which is the code that you use your company or 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:28.040 yourself use on your tax return. So my company, a 0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:32.000 management company, whatever, sports agent, et cetera, we all use 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:34.439 the same NASIS code. So we went by that code. 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:37.920 Anyone with that code can join our organization basically, and 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:42.760 so we formed it based on that and it became, 0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:46.320 as I said, talent representative. So theoretically we could have 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:49.840 sports agents and managers joined too, because we're a talent 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:55.840 representative or talent organization, international organization. So for the talent organization, 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:03.040 roughly there was sixteen billion in the bill, okay at 0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:07.000 the end of the day. Initially they had a number 0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:09.880 they were looking at and they were there was going 0:27:09.880 --> 0:27:13.119 back and forth and the conversations were is it enough money? 0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:17.040 You know? And the initial number that they came up 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:20.480 with is what you're discussing or alluding to the original 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:22.720 number that they came up was thought to not be enough. 0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:25.760 What they asked for was each of the organizations to say, 0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:30.280 how much do you think you need okay for you know, 0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:35.320 to repay and to stay open for whatever period two years, 0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:36.919 whatever that period was, I don't remember off the top 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:38.879 of my head, but you know, for this period and 0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:41.480 they and they were periods. It was set up with 0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:44.119 the SBA overseeing it, and there was like these this 0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:46.760 period that you had to apply for within that periods 0:27:46.760 --> 0:27:49.440 certain income and it had to reflect you know, going 0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:52.119 back I think two or three years or something some 0:27:52.440 --> 0:27:54.440 an average and I have to pull out my notes 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:55.760 to see what the thing was. It was. There was 0:27:56.200 --> 0:27:58.480 a lot of calculating going on and you had to 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:02.239 go through you know, a uh request, you know uh 0:28:03.600 --> 0:28:06.280 uh process. They set up a website for it, which 0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:11.400 crashed initially, by the way, and everybody's freaking out because 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:15.520 you had the time period within to register. Uh. So 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:17.600 there was so at the end of the day they 0:28:17.600 --> 0:28:20.199 did they estimated, re estimated and estimated again, they came 0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:22.199 up with the number of six billion. That was for 0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:29.000 all of these different scenarios. Okay, the talent representatives ended 0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:32.960 up with around nine hundred million dollars the independence. Okay, 0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:36.600 roughly that was our share, so just under a billion. 0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:39.560 The rest of the money, I couldn't tell you where 0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:42.040 it went, but you know it was all those different scenarios. 0:28:42.280 --> 0:28:47.360 The theaters, the quariums, the museums, the movie theaters, you know, 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:48.080 all those things. 0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:49.080 Uh, you know. 0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:55.200 Broadway, That's where all the money went. You applied for it, 0:28:55.640 --> 0:28:58.760 you got the you got the grant if they if 0:28:58.800 --> 0:29:02.920 you were approved. And then what they did was they 0:29:03.000 --> 0:29:07.440 had additional funds available. They did after everyone applied, which 0:29:07.440 --> 0:29:12.680 again is probably what you're referring to. It's almost like 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:14.400 we had too much. But maybe it's because some people 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:17.560 didn't apply, maybe their numbers didn't work out, or maybe 0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:21.080 their calculations were overestimated. I mean mine were pretty tight 0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:26.440 and what they weren't questioned, thank god. And I got 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:30.880 what I you know, what I applied for. And so 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:33.400 they did a second round. After that, there was like 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:37.680 a supplemental phase you could apply for and you know, 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:39.280 at the end of the day. I'm not sure exactly 0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:41.320 how much was used out of the sixteen billion. But 0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:44.160 there's also something I learned, you know, in the whole 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:50.040 government process, like once they they approved something and they 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:52.640 decided that's the number, they don't want to give it back. 0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:55.440 They didn't want to say, oop here, put it back 0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:58.600 over here, which I think is ridiculous. But hopefully nobody 0:29:58.600 --> 0:30:01.080 shoots me for saying that on this but I think, 0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:03.640 you know, honestly, I think it's ridiculous. But so it's like, Okay, 0:30:03.640 --> 0:30:05.719 we have too much, you can have some more, but 0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:07.400 you know, it goes according to you know, what it 0:30:07.440 --> 0:30:08.920 was you applied for. So it wasn't like you got 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:11.000 double your money. You got like a little bit extra 0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:14.720 over here. But you know, I, you know, I got mine. 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:16.440 And before you even asked the question, and I don't 0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:17.760 know if you're going to I'm going to answer it. 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:20.720 I had gotten to a point when I realized this 0:30:20.760 --> 0:30:21.920 thing was going to go for a long time. I 0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:24.239 had a conversation with my staff and I said, I'm 0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:26.560 not going to lay anybody off, but I'm going to 0:30:26.640 --> 0:30:28.920 have to cut back for right now because I've got 0:30:28.960 --> 0:30:31.680 to try to work within my means, I'm not going 0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:34.960 to take anything, but I'll need everybody to reduce like 0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:37.520 twenty five percent of something. Is that okay? And everybody 0:30:37.560 --> 0:30:41.479 said yes, that was fine. So I did that and 0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:43.920 we went along our merry way. Everybody got paid, but 0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:47.760 they got paid at a lesser, lesser rate. And then 0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:50.040 when I did get the money, I sent checks to 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:52.640 everybody or wires and I paid them back for the 0:30:52.640 --> 0:30:56.480 money that they didn't they didn't get. And I had 0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:58.600 one of my one of my employees who actually called 0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:00.280 me and said, why are you sending me this money? 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:02.120 I said, because I owe it to you, And I said, no, 0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:04.200 you don't. I said, yes, I do. I owe it 0:31:04.240 --> 0:31:05.760 to you, so keep it. Do something. I don't care 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:06.400 what you do with it. 0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:11.280 So essentially everybody was made whole. 0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:13.040 More or less. 0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:18.920 Yeah, okay, let's shift gears a little bit. Neither. The 0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:23.040 Venue Association just had a conference and they put out 0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:27.200 a report. I believe the number was sixty four percent 0:31:27.320 --> 0:31:31.479 of venues don't make money. How the hell is it 0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:33.640 a sustaining business? 0:31:34.920 --> 0:31:37.320 Well, they're saying I was at that conference, by the way, 0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:40.640 that's where I was this week. They're saying that that 0:31:40.680 --> 0:31:43.880 it's not a sustaining business for them, and that you know, 0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:48.080 twenty five or thirty percent of their members are going 0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:50.800 to go out of business at the rate or something 0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:52.040 like that. I don't want to be quoted on it, 0:31:52.040 --> 0:31:55.080 but that's around that number, which is not just similar 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:58.920 to what was happening overseas in the UK. They lost 0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:02.080 a you know, a a good portion of the bottom 0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:06.560 segment of the business. And you know of the of 0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:10.400 the small clubs and you know, small small, even small festivals. 0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:13.480 I mean they've had a number of them just shut down, 0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:18.080 go out of business. In reality, it see the problem 0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:19.800 and I'm not going to defend it because I'm not 0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:21.440 in that business, so I can't defend it, you know, 0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:23.320 I can't say, yeah, it's true, they're you know, they're 0:32:23.360 --> 0:32:26.680 all sixty five percent not maybe they're not operating properly, 0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:30.520 but but it's not. It's a it's a difficult business 0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:34.280 to sustain for a whole number of reasons. People are 0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:38.600 drinking less, that's the reality, especially the younger generation, so 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:43.520 they for a long time depended on bar sales. One 0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:45.760 of the arguments that the ACT, and I'll just say 0:32:45.760 --> 0:32:47.720 this as a talent represented one of the arguments is 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:51.360 that the acts charged too much. Okay, the deals are 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:55.120 what the deals are. If a venue or a promoter 0:32:55.160 --> 0:32:58.040 doesn't want the act, they can say no. The artist, 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:01.400 you know, either needs or or commands a certain amount. 0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:04.760 A young artist on the road today and I said 0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:06.840 this at the conference too, in a meeting that I 0:33:06.880 --> 0:33:09.760 had with a bunch of their people, I said, if 0:33:09.800 --> 0:33:12.200 you don't realize, and maybe you don't, a young artist 0:33:12.200 --> 0:33:16.000 today on the road needs about a minimum roughly of 0:33:16.040 --> 0:33:18.960 about twenty five thousand dollars a night. And I'm talking 0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:21.560 on low level, not on a even a medium level. 0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:23.800 You need about twenty five thousand dollars a night just 0:33:23.920 --> 0:33:27.120 to sustain and that's making no profit, that's just paying 0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:30.000 to be on the road. Back in the day, as 0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:34.040 we call it, the old days, labels subsidized that for 0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:37.480 new artists and for the ones that had new albums out, 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:39.840 they got some subsidy as well. But these artists today 0:33:39.840 --> 0:33:41.880 that are going out and there's really no record label 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:43.400 to subsiden I mean there are record labs, but not 0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:46.760 subsidizing anything. These guys are subsidizing it on their own. 0:33:46.840 --> 0:33:49.160 So where are they making their money, making their money 0:33:49.160 --> 0:33:52.080 on merch sales like that's and when I say making money, 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:54.600 maybe they make a profit. I had a client on 0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:56.520 the road recently and their profit was all in their 0:33:56.520 --> 0:33:59.600 merchandise sales. That's where their profit was. They made nothing 0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:01.720 at the end of the day from what they took 0:34:01.760 --> 0:34:05.520 on the road. So the whole segment of the business 0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:09.200 is difficult to sustain, not just theirs. But I can 0:34:09.320 --> 0:34:13.279 understand it because people either aren't going out as much. 0:34:13.800 --> 0:34:16.040 They also stay a lot of them, not all of them, 0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:18.600 stay open multiple nights a week because they you know, 0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:20.640 they want to be open, they want to continue the business, 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:22.960 but their bar seals being down, and then they're increasing 0:34:22.960 --> 0:34:24.880 their price on drinks to make up the difference, and 0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:27.400 then people are buying less. They may be drinking, but 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:30.160 they're buying less because beers were ten bucks, maybe now 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:32.960 they're twenty so or whatever fifteen and so maybe instead 0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:34.600 of three they buy two, or maybe instead of two 0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:39.200 day buy one. So there's that issue. Rents are going up, 0:34:39.840 --> 0:34:43.880 insurance is going up. You know, their fees just continue 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:47.760 to increase, and there's only a certain amount they can increase. Tickets. 0:34:48.080 --> 0:34:49.839 I'm talking about the smaller level. I'm not talking about 0:34:49.840 --> 0:34:52.239 the high end, talking about the bottom end. I mean, 0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:54.120 they can increase them, but this is a certain point 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:57.520 which is which it becomes the diminishing returns. Right, keep 0:34:57.520 --> 0:35:00.239 increasing ticket prices, then you get lesson less people, and 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:02.080 then they're back in the same boat that they were before. 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:04.839 So it's a listen, it's a business I wouldn't want 0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:07.200 to be in. I can tell you that it's a 0:35:07.200 --> 0:35:07.880 tough business. 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:12.720 Okay, let's go back. The act has to get paid 0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:15.440 twenty five thousand dollars a night. 0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:18.000 No, no, a week, a week a week. 0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:18.400 Okay. 0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:21.600 Yeah, that's just to cover costs. I'm talking about small. 0:35:21.400 --> 0:35:25.680 Okay, So let's just flesh it out a little bit. Yeah, 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:28.800 if it's twenty five k a week, how many people 0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:32.680 in the bands? How much infrastructure, how much you know, equipment? 0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:35.720 What are we talking about If it's a being outfit 0:35:35.800 --> 0:35:37.000 for twenty five k a week? 0:35:37.040 --> 0:35:38.880 Okay, I'm talking about it again. I'm talking about a 0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:41.759 starting act because as they get a little bigger, it's 0:35:41.880 --> 0:35:44.319 more expensive obviously for things that you're saying right now 0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:48.080 are alluding to. So let's just take you know, an example. 0:35:48.120 --> 0:35:51.759 So you got a five piece band, you got two 0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:55.719 people with them on a road. So that's seven okay, crew, 0:35:55.719 --> 0:35:58.080 that's tour manager crew. Merged that like all and two 0:35:58.120 --> 0:36:02.399 people are doing everything van. They're driving around a sprinter van. 0:36:02.800 --> 0:36:04.960 Their gear is either being pulled in a in a 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:08.320 van or it's in the sprinter but probably most probably 0:36:08.320 --> 0:36:10.399 in a van. So it's not there's not a lot 0:36:10.440 --> 0:36:12.960 of gear. It's a drum kit. Let's say, there's keyboards, 0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:16.120 there's three amps, there's some guitars, not a lot of stuff. 0:36:17.160 --> 0:36:20.360 They're doubling up in hotels mostly right, they're not in singles. 0:36:21.000 --> 0:36:22.600 I mean I could, as I said to them when 0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:24.120 I was talking to a bunch of the you know, 0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:26.160 club people, I was saying, look, they could sleep six 0:36:26.200 --> 0:36:28.480 in a room and driving a funky old van that 0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:31.240 breaks down all the time. But you know that's not practical. 0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:33.279 So so they you know, they're paying a little bit 0:36:33.280 --> 0:36:34.960 more for let's say a sprintter van, a little bit 0:36:34.960 --> 0:36:36.560 more room. But some of them, some of them are 0:36:36.560 --> 0:36:39.799 in just a nice van, but it's a van and 0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:42.960 they're driving around, and you know, between paying for gas 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:45.320 and paying they got to pay salaries, you know, unless 0:36:45.320 --> 0:36:48.000 it's a band splitting, what's left which was one of 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:50.120 the clients I had. And at the end, as I said, 0:36:50.120 --> 0:36:53.040 they only split the merchandise. They didn't make a profit on, 0:36:53.239 --> 0:36:56.000 you know, from ticket sales. So they're driving around, they're 0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:57.560 doing gigs, and if you think about it, they're working 0:36:57.600 --> 0:36:59.479 five nights a week. They're driving two hundred and fifty 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:01.919 to three hundred miles you know, between gigs. Maybe more, 0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:04.440 but probably not because they're not in a tour bus. 0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:09.040 You know, they've got to be paid basically five thousand 0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:10.719 dollars a night, and a lot of these bands are 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:13.000 getting the grand. Like what about an opening act, it's 0:37:13.000 --> 0:37:15.759 getting five hundred bucks. Okay, maybe it's not twenty five. 0:37:16.040 --> 0:37:18.200 Maybe it's seventeen to five for them because they're sleeping 0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:20.560 six in a room, but still get paid five hundred 0:37:20.600 --> 0:37:23.919 bucks two hundred and fifty. How are they making it work? 0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:28.600 They're not. They're not. They're barely living. They want to 0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:29.960 do it because they want to do it, but you 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:32.439 know they're they're not living. You know, it's tough. 0:37:40.160 --> 0:37:42.880 Okay, there are many multiple levels here. Let's start with 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:48.600 the beginning. You are a talent representative. The acts you're 0:37:48.640 --> 0:37:51.200 talking about, it takes twenty five k you have a 0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:54.239 number of issues. You have the band wants to do 0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:57.120 it because it is hard work, you have to find 0:37:57.160 --> 0:37:59.799 somebody who's going to pay for it. And then you 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:04.799 have the venue saying we're in the red. So how 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:08.239 does this play out? 0:38:08.840 --> 0:38:12.799 Well, this is this is what happens every day. So 0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:15.080 they're not saying every day, every single day, oh, we're 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:17.200 not making any money. We don't do it. They obviously 0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:19.680 need the talent, they need to have shows, They need 0:38:19.719 --> 0:38:23.520 to have performances because they need to keep people coming in. 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:29.680 So they do. However, you know, you can only use 0:38:29.800 --> 0:38:31.400 lack of a better term, you can only squeeze so 0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:34.439 much blood from a stone. So you know what they're 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:36.440 saying at this point. Why they put that report out, 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:37.879 or one of the reasons they put that report out 0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:42.640 is you know, to show that they're not you know, 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:45.000 they're not making bank over there. You know they're not. 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:46.920 Oh man, we're all you know, we're going on holiday, 0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:48.680 we're going to Aruba. Was shutting down for a month. 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:51.160 You know, we're doing great. Some of them are probably 0:38:51.200 --> 0:38:53.720 doing great, right and some of them are doing terrible. 0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:56.440 But the ones in between are probably just making it, 0:38:56.520 --> 0:38:59.560 you know, because it's tough. So how does it play out? 0:39:00.440 --> 0:39:02.600 It's you know, like every day, you know, it's like 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:06.000 people go to the store, they buy food, they come home. 0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:08.880 When they get home, you know, depending on what kind 0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:10.359 of job they have, they have to decide what kind 0:39:10.360 --> 0:39:11.600 of food do I want to buy? How much do 0:39:11.640 --> 0:39:13.200 I want to spend? Do I buy an extra this? 0:39:13.280 --> 0:39:14.799 Do I go it out to a dinner more than 0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:16.239 once a week? Do I? You know what I mean. 0:39:16.280 --> 0:39:18.919 It's like budgeting. But they still have to keep doing things. 0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:21.400 They got to get to work. And when you know, 0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:23.200 the and you're living in New York City and they 0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:25.160 decide that they're going to increase you know, the metro 0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:28.719 card or the you know, the metro system from you 0:39:28.719 --> 0:39:30.920 know two ninety to three fifty, and they're going to 0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:33.480 increase you know, the George Washington Bridge from you know 0:39:33.520 --> 0:39:35.520 whatever it is now ten bucks or nine to fifty 0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:39.120 or whatever it is to cross to you know, fifteen dollars. 0:39:39.280 --> 0:39:43.359 Or they have the you know two fifty surcharge now 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:47.160 for driving below sixty fourth Street in Manhattan. All these 0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:50.600 little things for many people don't matter, but for the 0:39:50.640 --> 0:39:55.320 working guy, working woman, that's a big hit. Very similar 0:39:55.360 --> 0:39:57.680 in the clubs, very similar for the acts. So so 0:39:57.760 --> 0:39:59.319 we do the business. They're going to you know, I 0:39:59.320 --> 0:40:01.040 just said they're going to work. They're doing their thing. 0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:03.000 But you know, maybe they skip a lunch, maybe they 0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:05.200 have less to eat. You know, who knows. They go 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:08.600 out less. One thing always affects the next, and so 0:40:08.600 --> 0:40:10.719 they going out less obviously probably affects the clubs, the 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:14.400 movies and whatever. But we play out, you know, we're 0:40:14.520 --> 0:40:17.200 talking and making deals all day long. The fact of 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:20.239 the matter is at the end of the day, they're 0:40:20.280 --> 0:40:21.799 having to do things to make up for it. As 0:40:21.840 --> 0:40:26.040 I said, I probably charging more for drinks or increasing 0:40:26.040 --> 0:40:29.520 the fee, increasing the ticket price. The point is they 0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:33.640 have to do something. So how it plays out is 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:38.480 is a constant negotiation back and forth. They're not going 0:40:38.560 --> 0:40:40.640 to not buy talent because they won't be open if 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:42.839 they do that. But maybe they buy different talent, or 0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:44.560 they just say I can't afford it, I'm not taking 0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:47.720 this act, or yeah, And what happens when those things happen, 0:40:47.719 --> 0:40:51.120 Bob is a lot of developmental acts are the ones 0:40:51.160 --> 0:40:55.359 that suffer, right because they now either have to go 0:40:55.920 --> 0:40:59.640 to smaller places locally, and maybe they don't get any guarantee. 0:40:59.640 --> 0:41:01.560 They just to play for the door, which a lot 0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:05.600 of brand new bands do anyway, and it starts to 0:41:05.960 --> 0:41:08.640 kind of warp the system, you know, instead of being 0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:11.359 able to build it up. You know, play this place, 0:41:11.440 --> 0:41:13.439 in this place, in this place, in this place. Makes 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:14.920 it a little bit more difficult if the ones in 0:41:14.920 --> 0:41:17.160 the middle are getting really choosy about what they buy, 0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:18.719 and it's like, you know, I don't want to take 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:20.240 a shot on this. I don't want to take a gamble, 0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:22.280 you know, I can't afford to lose money. That starts 0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:25.759 to affect it. So it how it plays out is 0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:29.319 it does affect the system. It kind of sets it off, 0:41:29.440 --> 0:41:32.800 you know, off rhythm if you like, it's still happening, 0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:34.680 but it's not happening exactly like it was. 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:38.960 Okay in the old pre Live Nation days, if you 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:42.120 were an agent and you booked a tour and the 0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:46.240 promoter got hurt, you would give money back for two reasons. 0:41:46.280 --> 0:41:49.120 A to keep the promoter in business. Sometimes these people 0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:52.719 were teetering. Also when you came back through, they would 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:55.960 book you. So to what degree does that occur with 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:59.080 independent venues? You're all independence In this case, there's no 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:03.080 big backstone. So you have an act, it goes in there. 0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:07.000 You need your twenty five k a week, but they 0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:10.399 draw a fifteen or twenty percent crowd. What do you do? 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:18.280 Well, that's a loaded question, but I have to unpack 0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:21.320 it piece by piece. So back in the day, preleb 0:42:21.440 --> 0:42:23.960 Nation days, it's not that everybody that lost money got money, 0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:25.719 but I could. It all came down to relationships, and 0:42:25.719 --> 0:42:27.120 a lot of it was with the act and the 0:42:27.160 --> 0:42:31.440 manager right, not necessarily specifically and strictly with the agent. 0:42:31.560 --> 0:42:34.640 Although yes, there were some of those relationships where agents 0:42:34.680 --> 0:42:37.120 might have gone back and said, hey, give them some 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:39.000 give them, you know, give a second thought to this 0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:41.279 because they got really hurt. But usually it was that 0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:43.880 they really got hit and that was you know, that 0:42:43.920 --> 0:42:45.879 could have been anything, that could have been, you know, 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:47.880 a storm. I mean today's world, we have it all 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.520 the time now, but a really bad storm came through 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:51.960 and everybody thought it was gonna be great, but in 0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:55.280 fact there was torrential downpour unless people showed up than normal. 0:42:55.560 --> 0:42:57.120 But it wasn't just a club venue. It was like 0:42:57.160 --> 0:42:59.239 a big place and there was like big money on 0:42:59.280 --> 0:43:04.239 the line, and so you know, they would get helped out. Sometimes, 0:43:04.360 --> 0:43:09.560 not all the time, but sometimes in today's world, I'm 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:13.239 sure those things happen, but not so much for me. 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:16.239 I can't speak specifically, I because when I'm making the 0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:18.640 deal I try to make I try to make certain 0:43:19.000 --> 0:43:23.800 that it makes sense for everybody. Am I one hundred percent? No, 0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:26.440 nobody is, But I try to make sense. And I 0:43:26.440 --> 0:43:28.759 think some of the independence, if not all of them 0:43:29.400 --> 0:43:32.279 I'm talking about the talent representatives, have the same sort 0:43:32.320 --> 0:43:32.680 of thought. 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:33.680 Right. 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:36.560 It's not about how much can I get at the 0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:38.080 end of the day. Yes, we'd like to get as 0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:39.560 much as we can, but it's not just about Okay, 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:40.919 let me get as much as I can't worry about 0:43:40.960 --> 0:43:43.520 the rest of later. It's about, you know, does it 0:43:43.560 --> 0:43:45.200 make sense if I'm going to get this, is it 0:43:45.239 --> 0:43:47.799 going to make sense or not? And yes, there's going 0:43:47.840 --> 0:43:51.040 to be a time when you have something that happens 0:43:51.040 --> 0:43:53.480 that you can't anticipate. You know, no different than booking 0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:54.960 a tour and than a hurricane comes through and you 0:43:55.040 --> 0:43:56.799 lose three shows. You know, it's nothing you can do 0:43:56.840 --> 0:44:01.560 about it. You know, weather's weather, So in this instance, 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:04.320 you just try to be cognizant of it. At least. 0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:06.200 That's that's what I try to do. I try to 0:44:06.200 --> 0:44:07.719 be cognizant. I try to set the deals up to 0:44:07.760 --> 0:44:10.319 they make sense. And at the end of the day, 0:44:10.480 --> 0:44:13.040 if you can, if the one of the managers that 0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:14.880 one of the meetings that we had this week actually 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:17.560 put it in a in a very good way, and 0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:21.359 he said, as long as I can make for lack, 0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:23.759 I'll just use an example, he said, if I can, 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:25.760 you know, if I can, if I can earn seventy 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:29.160 percent of the door, at the end of the day, 0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:32.920 I don't care how I get there. I don't need 0:44:32.960 --> 0:44:37.439 it all up front. Okay, as there are people that don't, 0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:39.759 that don't think that, don't believe that, and don't go 0:44:39.800 --> 0:44:41.759 by that. But but he put it out, you know, 0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:44.319 in a way that made sense, which is it doesn't care. 0:44:44.719 --> 0:44:46.560 As long as he's making what he's got to make 0:44:47.440 --> 0:44:48.800 and what he needs to make and what he'd like 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:53.600 to make for his client, he's happy. You know, whichever 0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:56.160 way we get there, whichever street leads down to there, 0:44:56.520 --> 0:44:58.000 go around the corner and come back, you know what 0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:01.480 I mean. So does it happen yet, I'm sure it does. 0:45:02.120 --> 0:45:06.080 I try to I try to avoid it if I can't, 0:45:06.239 --> 0:45:07.479 you know, I try to avoid it. 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:11.440 Okay. So we referenced the old days where the labels 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:16.400 gave tour support, they bought drinks. It venues today. In 0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:21.640 the old days, pre internet days, a all the action 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:24.400 was outside the house. You needed to go to the 0:45:24.520 --> 0:45:28.920 club to socialize. Okay, you want it to be out 0:45:28.960 --> 0:45:33.320 amongst people. You don't need to do that today. In addition, 0:45:33.920 --> 0:45:36.800 on a developing act, we would hear about an act 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:39.160 and he went to the club. The price might be 0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:42.359 cheap ten dollars back in the day, because you heard 0:45:42.400 --> 0:45:45.440 about the act, you wanted to see it. That was 0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:48.760 the only way to see it. Maybe there was one 0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:52.520 song on the radio, whereas today we have Spotify, we 0:45:52.719 --> 0:45:56.960 have YouTube. Is there a future and what is in 0:45:57.000 --> 0:46:00.960 the future of developing acts for them? The bottom up? 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:06.440 Well, this is and yeah, that's that's a good point 0:46:06.880 --> 0:46:10.399 and a good statement and actually kind of reverts back 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:11.960 to what we were talking about a little while ago. 0:46:12.120 --> 0:46:16.319 That's another thing that's affecting these clubs. You know, it's 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:19.279 not the same, you know, the two things rather and 0:46:19.320 --> 0:46:21.080 it's been years now, so it's not like it's just 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:23.400 doing it this, you know, like the next last two years. 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:26.040 But the whole record company thing that probably happened towards 0:46:26.040 --> 0:46:28.279 the end of the or mid nineties, probably, I would think. 0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:32.759 But you're right. And back in the old days, the 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:36.360 labels bought seats, they bought drinks, right, they bought tickets, right. 0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:39.359 They didn't ask for comps. Starting probably in the early 0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:41.279 the mid nineties, they started asking for comps, like they 0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:43.319 didn't want to buy tickets anymore. Right, that's when all 0:46:43.320 --> 0:46:45.320 the artist development stuff kind of went out the window. 0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:48.040 In today's world, I don't know that they do anything. 0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:50.359 I see them occasionally putting tickets on hold. They don't 0:46:50.360 --> 0:46:52.160 even pick them up, you know, they put them on 0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:54.239 hold to buy, but they don't pick them up. So 0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:56.399 there's not that support. So when you take that out 0:46:56.400 --> 0:46:59.200 of the you know, out of the out of the system, 0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:01.279 you know, that affects you know, these clubs as well. 0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:07.239 So uh and and you're right, Uh, the urgency so 0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:09.759 you know, going back to our time, you and me, 0:47:10.480 --> 0:47:12.799 the urgency was like you heard about it, you heard 0:47:12.800 --> 0:47:15.320 a track at your friend's house, right, like I got it. 0:47:15.600 --> 0:47:17.160 I got to see this band, we gotta go see 0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:20.480 we gotta go see them? Did you see. By the way, 0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:24.600 did you see the uh you saw the led Zeppelin doc? Right, Yeah, 0:47:24.640 --> 0:47:26.399 I'm sure you did. Okay, So I was a big fan. 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:29.600 I remember hearing them that. Somebody played the track and 0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:30.960 I was like, oh my god, this is you know, 0:47:31.000 --> 0:47:32.520 it's just what we're talking about. It's like, you have 0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:33.920 to go out and get the album, you gotta go 0:47:33.920 --> 0:47:38.080 see him. Not so much now, yes, but some of 0:47:38.120 --> 0:47:40.719 that's going on. I at this conference there was a 0:47:40.760 --> 0:47:44.440 young woman I think she was she was involved with 0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:45.880 the club. I think she might have been involved with 0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:48.480 the club, and she was, you know, saying, oh, I 0:47:48.880 --> 0:47:51.160 heard this new act and you got to check them out, 0:47:51.160 --> 0:47:53.360 and it's really good. I just overheard her having a conversation. 0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:55.279 They're really great, and I'm going to go out and 0:47:55.280 --> 0:47:57.400 see him. I mean, there's still some of that, but 0:47:57.400 --> 0:47:59.480 but not at the level that there was, because you're right, 0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:02.480 there's alter aternative stuff. There's a lot of people that 0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:06.040 and my daughters did this when they were in high 0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:08.040 school too. You know, when it's ticket sale at ticket 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:10.960 prices went up, you know, and started getting you know, 0:48:11.160 --> 0:48:15.040 higher and higher. They started on the movies more because 0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:16.719 it was cheaper back in those days, they were probably 0:48:16.760 --> 0:48:19.880 seven fifty you know whatever, the fifteen bucks now. But 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:21.040 you know, there's a lot of people that I know 0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:22.680 that have movie passes, right, so they can go as 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:25.359 many as they want. They buy them monthly. So yeah, 0:48:25.400 --> 0:48:27.239 there's a lot of alternative stuff. Plus, you know, there's 0:48:27.280 --> 0:48:30.040 TikTok and there's you know, Netflix, and there's you know, 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:32.640 zooming with people and whatever. So there is a lot 0:48:32.680 --> 0:48:37.400 of competition for that, you know, for entertainment. So in 0:48:37.840 --> 0:48:41.040 answer to the question, it it's really difficult. I can 0:48:41.080 --> 0:48:45.319 tell you it's difficult to establish an act and quote 0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:46.880 unquote break it, as we used to say in the 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:48.319 old days, you know, get them to a point where 0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:50.360 you can build an audience for them because there's so 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:54.360 much else going on. There's so much distraction. And some 0:48:54.520 --> 0:48:57.880 of them, depending on the music, you know, what genre 0:48:57.960 --> 0:49:02.240 they're in, it happens for talk, you know, those girly 0:49:02.239 --> 0:49:04.680 pop singers, right, the female pop singers, right. A lot 0:49:04.680 --> 0:49:08.040 of that's TikTok driven and all of a sudden boom, 0:49:08.080 --> 0:49:10.880 they have a huge crowd. And some of it's not 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:13.800 you know, just happened yesterday. Obviously, some of them were Disney, 0:49:14.160 --> 0:49:16.520 you know, people, and they came up and you know, 0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:18.840 the kids were watching them on TV for five years, 0:49:18.480 --> 0:49:21.239 so there's that base. But if you think about it, 0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:25.040 that's the same system, only it's different now, right that 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:27.600 was our system, like they built. They built it from 0:49:27.600 --> 0:49:30.680 the ground. They saw them on TV. You know, they 0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:32.120 lived with them, they grew up with them, and all 0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:34.520 of a sudden, now they're on stage at Madison Square Gardens, 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:36.960 so they've known them for years. It's not an overnight 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:41.720 suc sensation. So in trying to build it from ground 0:49:41.840 --> 0:49:48.000 zero with none of that happening is extremely difficult, extremely difficult, 0:49:48.160 --> 0:49:51.360 And for that reason, there's not a lot of headline 0:49:51.360 --> 0:49:54.600 new headliners coming through. There are headline obviously headliners coming through, 0:49:54.800 --> 0:49:56.959 but not a lot of new ones, not a lot, 0:49:57.160 --> 0:50:00.799 not multitudes like they're used to be. There seems to 0:50:00.800 --> 0:50:02.800 be a lot in the middle, and there's a whole 0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:05.600 lot at the bottom that are trying to get up 0:50:06.239 --> 0:50:08.120 and break the ceiling or whatever you want to call it. 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:10.840 You know, those waves that we had, except you know, 0:50:10.920 --> 0:50:12.919 again putting the pop thing over to the side, because 0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:15.759 that's its own entity now, which is interesting because when 0:50:15.760 --> 0:50:17.800 I started in the business, or actually before I started 0:50:17.800 --> 0:50:19.920 the busines when I was a kid, then when you 0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:21.759 were a kid. But that was the thing, right, the 0:50:21.800 --> 0:50:23.560 pop thing. I wasn't a pop guy. I was more 0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:26.360 into the album tracks, but you know that was the 0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:27.960 pop thing. Oh one single, I gotta go out and 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:30.040 see them, you know, blah blah blah. So that's what's 0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:34.480 happening now. So growing, it's a real process. It's on 0:50:34.520 --> 0:50:38.319 the road because there's really no record action happening. You've 0:50:38.320 --> 0:50:41.160 written about a lot of this. Bob. It's working it 0:50:41.320 --> 0:50:43.279 and is trying to build an audience and it's you 0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:46.120 know and literally building them because you just don't find 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:48.120 them by accident. You don't roll into town and all 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:50.359 of a sudden there's a thousand people that come see 0:50:50.360 --> 0:50:53.160 you. You know. It's not like it was you know that 0:50:53.239 --> 0:50:54.839 happened to hear it on the radio and you didn't 0:50:54.840 --> 0:50:57.640 even know they were there. You know, so much different. 0:50:57.640 --> 0:51:00.200 It's a it's a much more grueling game, and you 0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:02.600 have to you have to take time. There's a lot 0:51:02.600 --> 0:51:06.040 of hit and miss, you know, and there's a lot 0:51:06.080 --> 0:51:09.359 of for me anyway, I have to spend a lot 0:51:09.400 --> 0:51:11.719 of time, you know, thinking about it, like are they 0:51:11.719 --> 0:51:13.279 going to work over here or not. Do I really 0:51:13.280 --> 0:51:15.400 need to go out to the Midwest and spend and 0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:17.359 have the act spending twenty five let's say, if it's 0:51:17.400 --> 0:51:20.279 a new young act, twenty five grand a week to 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:22.319 work out there for we're not going back for two years. 0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:24.440 Or do I better off working over here near where 0:51:24.480 --> 0:51:27.640 they live, you know, doing it regionalized. So I think 0:51:27.680 --> 0:51:30.120 there's more of a you know, I think this has 0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:31.239 to be more thought behind it. 0:51:32.320 --> 0:51:35.839 Okay, let's say you're booking clubs, independent clubs. In terms 0:51:35.880 --> 0:51:40.800 of the negotiation. How much negotiation is there? Is it like, okay, 0:51:41.080 --> 0:51:46.040 here's the fee, and then what percentage of merch they take? 0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:49.920 When you're negotiating with an independent venue. What are the 0:51:49.960 --> 0:51:51.000 deal points? 0:51:51.640 --> 0:51:53.720 Well, those are Those are a lot of the points 0:51:53.719 --> 0:51:56.640 that we were discussing actually at the conference, which is, 0:51:57.280 --> 0:51:59.640 you know, there's a couple of ways. There's multiple ways 0:51:59.640 --> 0:52:00.879 you do it. You can go in and say, hey, 0:52:00.920 --> 0:52:02.520 this is the feed, take it or leave it, and 0:52:02.680 --> 0:52:04.000 you know, I just I just want this and I 0:52:04.040 --> 0:52:06.279 don't care about anything else. Or you can go in 0:52:06.320 --> 0:52:08.520 and you know you can you can build it from 0:52:08.520 --> 0:52:11.000 I need a minimum of this, and then I need 0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:12.360 to be able to make this at the end, so 0:52:12.480 --> 0:52:15.239 and structure it, you know, on a basis where you 0:52:15.239 --> 0:52:18.759 can earn it if you if you if you draw 0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:21.200 the people right, you earn it if you earn it, 0:52:21.239 --> 0:52:25.200 so to speak. The merchandise is again one of these 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:29.879 tricky areas because the venue wants to have a piece 0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:32.520 of the merch You know, back in the day, the 0:52:32.640 --> 0:52:34.839 artists rolled in and they had a guy that walked 0:52:34.840 --> 0:52:36.920 around selling shirts and it was like, okay, we sold 0:52:36.960 --> 0:52:38.440 some shirts, you made some money. Or maybe it was 0:52:38.480 --> 0:52:40.759 as the kids were leaving with the fans, they'd sell 0:52:40.760 --> 0:52:43.080 it to them on the way out right, not the bootleggers, 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:45.840 but actually the artists people, right, they'd be selling them. 0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:48.680 And then merch merchandise became a thing. I mean now 0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:50.960 there's merchandise companies. Back then it was just then printing 0:52:51.000 --> 0:52:54.560 their own shirts up. So you know Whi's been for 0:52:54.560 --> 0:52:58.280 a long time. But you know now big conglomerate merchandise companies. 0:52:58.680 --> 0:53:01.840 So the merchandise can be as I said to you, 0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:04.040 for the younger at it's really important. As I always 0:53:04.080 --> 0:53:07.120 saying to some of these you know, venue operators, the 0:53:07.239 --> 0:53:11.960 merchandise could be profit and loss you know, that could 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:14.399 be the difference in them making any profit. But even 0:53:14.440 --> 0:53:16.960 more than that, some of these acts, especially if like 0:53:17.000 --> 0:53:19.400 I said earlier, these opening acts that are getting paid nothing, 0:53:19.520 --> 0:53:22.680 that's how they pay for hotels and fuel. Like if 0:53:22.680 --> 0:53:25.160 they if they're giving up merchandise or a large percentage 0:53:25.200 --> 0:53:27.520 of it, that's that's money they need to operate. They're 0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:30.560 not making a they're not making a profit. They're they're 0:53:30.719 --> 0:53:32.399 on the road because they want to be or they 0:53:32.400 --> 0:53:35.000 think they're going to be successful. Want to be successful, right, 0:53:35.120 --> 0:53:38.600 or they just love playing music. They're they're using that 0:53:39.480 --> 0:53:43.280 to help them sustain themselves. Like maybe they can stop 0:53:43.320 --> 0:53:45.799 in at Burger King instead of skipping a meal because 0:53:45.840 --> 0:53:49.040 they have merchandists. I'm not trying to pull anybody's you 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:51.080 know what, do you get the tears rolling here? But 0:53:51.120 --> 0:53:53.040 that's the reality. Some of these guys are like, oh shit, 0:53:53.480 --> 0:53:56.560 if I you know, if we can sell some merch uh, 0:53:56.640 --> 0:53:58.360 you know, we're good. Because the fuel in a hotel, 0:53:58.360 --> 0:53:59.600 all right, maybe we're gonna have to stay all in 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:01.640 one room. Sel sub merch maybe can have two rooms, 0:54:01.680 --> 0:54:05.120 you know. For the smaller acts, that's the level it's at. Frankly, 0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:07.520 for larger acts. You know, again, we want to talk 0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:09.880 about the top ten percent. That's a whole different story. 0:54:10.960 --> 0:54:14.920 You know, that's a corporate, you know, profit game. That's different. 0:54:22.480 --> 0:54:26.960 Okay, let's stay with the small venues. It's in the 0:54:27.080 --> 0:54:32.879 smaller venues that the ticket fee looks outrageous. If there's 0:54:32.920 --> 0:54:36.840 a twenty five dollar fee on one hundred dollars ticket, 0:54:37.120 --> 0:54:39.920 you don't like it. If there's a twenty or twenty 0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:46.719 five dollars fee on a twenty five dollars ticket, everybody's unhappy. 0:54:46.800 --> 0:54:47.799 So talk about that. 0:54:49.600 --> 0:54:52.319 Well, yes, and something that we've been talking about lot. 0:54:53.360 --> 0:54:57.400 The reality is, you know, from our perspective, fees have 0:54:57.400 --> 0:55:00.160 gotten out of hand. It used to be there was 0:55:00.200 --> 0:55:04.560 a fee, a handling fee, right, There was a ticket 0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:07.839 fee because they had to print it out and you know, 0:55:08.040 --> 0:55:09.560 sit mail it to you or whatever. So there was 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:11.960 a handling fee, there was a printing charge and whatever, 0:55:12.560 --> 0:55:14.319 and then the fee became you know whatever, it was 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:17.400 a dollar. I think it's actually going back. There was 0:55:17.480 --> 0:55:19.799 there was no fees to the to the fan. The 0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:23.440 fees in the old days, the fees were charged to 0:55:23.520 --> 0:55:26.880 the show. You paid. I don't remember the number of 0:55:26.960 --> 0:55:29.279 fans ten cents whatever. It was a ticket and it 0:55:29.360 --> 0:55:31.800 was charged to the show as a show cost. Okay, 0:55:32.400 --> 0:55:36.479 and then Fred Rosen came along. You know the story. 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:37.640 I don't even have to tell you, but I'll tell 0:55:37.680 --> 0:55:40.279 it on the podcast. Fred Rosen came along, and I'll 0:55:40.320 --> 0:55:43.120 and I'll I won't say I made it happen, but 0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:45.200 I will take some of the hit for this. He 0:55:45.280 --> 0:55:48.880 called me on a particular tour of one of my clients. Actually, 0:55:49.040 --> 0:55:52.600 somebody had him call me the client that I had. 0:55:52.640 --> 0:55:56.520 We were we were going on tour and ticket Tron 0:55:56.760 --> 0:55:59.080 was doing it. Remember ticket Tron of course, so ticket 0:55:59.239 --> 0:56:01.920 ticket Tron was doing the you know the ticketing back then, 0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:04.720 the computerized if you want to call it that whatever, 0:56:05.280 --> 0:56:09.719 you know, mechanical ticket issuing or whatever. If you didn't 0:56:09.760 --> 0:56:11.520 go to like your local record shop or you didn't 0:56:11.520 --> 0:56:13.600 go to the box office or whatever. They were handling 0:56:13.600 --> 0:56:17.719 it a lot of them. And somebody called me and said, hey, 0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:19.920 you got to talk to this new company. It's called Ticketmaster. 0:56:20.000 --> 0:56:21.760 They can do it better, they can do it faster, 0:56:21.840 --> 0:56:24.400 blah blah blah blah. I said, okay, right, so I 0:56:24.480 --> 0:56:30.399 talked to I talked to uh Fred. I quote Fred 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:32.279 up when we had a conversation and he said, you know, 0:56:32.280 --> 0:56:33.640 I want to do I want to handle I'd like 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:35.200 to do all the tickets for the whole tour. And 0:56:35.239 --> 0:56:37.480 I said okay, but I said, I don't want to 0:56:37.480 --> 0:56:38.719 have to pay a fee. I don't want to tour 0:56:38.760 --> 0:56:41.440 to pay a fee for it. He said, okay, don't 0:56:41.440 --> 0:56:43.400 worry about I'll take care of it. I said, how 0:56:43.400 --> 0:56:44.520 are you going to take care of it? He says, 0:56:44.840 --> 0:56:48.600 I'll charge the buyer. I said, oh, that's a good concept. 0:56:48.640 --> 0:56:50.319 I never heard of that concept. He goes, yeah, charge 0:56:50.320 --> 0:56:52.680 I don't know, it's twenty five cents or something or 0:56:52.719 --> 0:56:55.799 ten cents or something. I said, okay, that sounds great. 0:56:57.239 --> 0:57:00.399 And so that happened there. So you know, the next 0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:02.640 time I had a actually I had a conversation with 0:57:02.719 --> 0:57:03.800 him a bunch of time. But the next time I 0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:05.279 got on the phone to talk about ticketing, I was 0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:06.920 trying to get him to reduce his fee that he 0:57:06.960 --> 0:57:10.080 was charging for the buyers. And this was probably two 0:57:10.239 --> 0:57:12.520 or three years later, and he hung up on me 0:57:12.600 --> 0:57:16.000 basically because he was like, screw you, find somebody else 0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:17.280 to do your tickets. And I went, wow, that was 0:57:17.280 --> 0:57:20.440 a quick turnaround for it. But that was just you know, 0:57:20.480 --> 0:57:22.520 then it just went from there, right, it escalated. So 0:57:22.920 --> 0:57:25.080 in today's world, what does it cost to actually issu 0:57:25.080 --> 0:57:28.600 your ticket? Eighty five cents? Maybe? Okay, so when you're 0:57:28.640 --> 0:57:31.360 charging fifteen dollars at thirty five or a hunt or 0:57:31.560 --> 0:57:34.080 probably doesn't go higher than that. But fifty yeah, okay 0:57:34.080 --> 0:57:36.440 if it's on a really huge ticket, I guess, I 0:57:36.440 --> 0:57:39.400 mean it doesn't matter. But the conversations we've been having 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:44.320 with with you know, with promoters and buyer and venue buyers, 0:57:44.400 --> 0:57:47.240 is why don't we just why are we doing this? 0:57:48.040 --> 0:57:51.000 If it's twenty five bucks for the ticket and thirteen 0:57:51.080 --> 0:57:54.320 for the fees you know, ticketing fees, venue fees, whatever, 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:56.919 so it's thirty eight dollars, why don't we just put 0:57:56.920 --> 0:57:58.600 thirty eight dollars down to figure out how to split 0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:01.880 it up? I want to do fifty to fifty, I mean, 0:58:01.920 --> 0:58:05.040 like what makes sense. Like let's at least engage the conversation. 0:58:05.280 --> 0:58:07.040 Because back in the day before it was all the 0:58:07.080 --> 0:58:09.160 expenses and ticketing fees and all the rest of it, 0:58:10.040 --> 0:58:12.040 you know, it was the deals were simple. It was 0:58:12.600 --> 0:58:15.640 X amount of dollars guaranteed versus fifty percent, and it 0:58:15.680 --> 0:58:17.760 went to sixty at a point and maybe seventy at 0:58:17.760 --> 0:58:19.200 a point. And that was like later on when everybody 0:58:19.280 --> 0:58:20.919 figured out there might be more money to be made. 0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:24.840 And it was simple. There was no you didn't have 0:58:24.880 --> 0:58:26.280 to have accountants on a road, you didn't have to 0:58:26.280 --> 0:58:27.640 do any of it. It's like, okay, this is what 0:58:27.640 --> 0:58:29.800 we're going to do. So you know, and I know 0:58:29.840 --> 0:58:31.920 for the larger tours, just still otive accounts. But I'm 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:33.920 talking about for the workingman's band if you want to 0:58:33.960 --> 0:58:36.320 call it that, or a workingman's group. So that's some 0:58:36.360 --> 0:58:38.920 of the conversations we've had. We've been having because you know, 0:58:38.960 --> 0:58:40.640 it is kind of out of hand. It's it's really 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:42.760 like I have this over here, and then you can 0:58:42.760 --> 0:58:46.840 split this and so then what then we as agents 0:58:46.920 --> 0:58:49.000 or managers have to go back and go, okay, then 0:58:49.120 --> 0:58:51.320 we'll do this, but we're going to keep this over here. 0:58:51.360 --> 0:58:53.360 You know. It's like, let's just put it all here 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:55.720 and figure out what it is. You have the venue, 0:58:55.760 --> 0:58:58.240 we have the act. If the act didn't come into 0:58:58.280 --> 0:59:02.560 the venue, there'd be nobody there, very few people. Okay, 0:59:02.600 --> 0:59:05.280 not every venue, but some or most they're not coming 0:59:05.320 --> 0:59:07.320 down to hang out at an empty venue and drink 0:59:07.360 --> 0:59:09.920 beer or drink drinks at the bar if nothing's happening. 0:59:10.800 --> 0:59:12.880 Unless it's a bar, you know that they have talent 0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:15.680 in but it's also a hangout bar. But if it's 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:18.880 a place that's actually a showcase for talent, they're not. 0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:21.360 Nobody's coming down to hang out without talent. So there's 0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:24.600 a reason people are in there. So why can't we 0:59:25.240 --> 0:59:27.880 take it from that position? You know, you've got the bar, 0:59:28.040 --> 0:59:31.000 you got you know this, you just just make it easier, 0:59:31.080 --> 0:59:34.400 make it simpler. It's it's kind of I was sitting 0:59:34.400 --> 0:59:36.480 at the meeting we were having conversations about at Milwaukee, 0:59:36.560 --> 0:59:38.640 and I was sitting there thinking, this is like two 0:59:38.720 --> 0:59:45.280 countries with you know, uh military, you know weapons, right, 0:59:45.760 --> 0:59:47.720 you're going to have you know, dis missile. Then I'm 0:59:47.720 --> 0:59:49.320 going to make this bomb. You're going to do this. 0:59:49.440 --> 0:59:51.280 I'm going to do this. It's just like, can we 0:59:51.400 --> 0:59:55.120 just cut it all out and just have nothing? We 0:59:55.160 --> 0:59:57.240 won't attack you, you don't attack us. How about that? I mean, 0:59:57.280 --> 1:00:00.120 I know that's unrealistic, but uh that's the way I 1:00:00.120 --> 1:00:00.680 feel something. 1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:06.240 Okay, ticket Master, when we're talking about Areena's large values 1:00:06.280 --> 1:00:12.240 that are they pay these advances. They rationalize the fees. 1:00:12.920 --> 1:00:16.840 Let's just talk about that conceptually. We'll get into details. Leader. 1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:22.200 When you have an independent club, how they rationalizing these 1:00:22.320 --> 1:00:23.080 large fees. 1:00:28.400 --> 1:00:32.080 Cost of operation is one. They need this guarantee to 1:00:32.120 --> 1:00:34.120 their bottom line, you know what I mean. So it's 1:00:34.120 --> 1:00:36.400 again it's like, okay, this parts are so we know 1:00:36.480 --> 1:00:39.120 we have that we're gonna sell x amount of tickets 1:00:39.160 --> 1:00:41.960 all year or you know, average right on a year, 1:00:42.080 --> 1:00:43.640 so we know we have this much coming in. So 1:00:43.680 --> 1:00:46.560 that's one reason. And some of them, honestly, I don't 1:00:46.600 --> 1:00:48.480 know for sure, but maybe some of them get advances 1:00:48.480 --> 1:00:51.400 from the ticketing companies. I'm sure they do. It's probably 1:00:51.400 --> 1:00:53.800 the same thing, just in a smaller, smaller way, right, 1:00:54.480 --> 1:00:56.720 because they're not all ticketmaster venus. I mean, there are 1:00:56.960 --> 1:00:59.680 a lot of independent, you know, small ticketing companies, although 1:00:59.720 --> 1:01:03.640 a lot of those are being bought up, so you know, 1:01:03.760 --> 1:01:07.440 and I'm sure they go, if they're smart enough, they 1:01:07.480 --> 1:01:10.120 go and get advances on their ticket money to operate. 1:01:11.040 --> 1:01:13.080 And so they're doing the same thing that the larger 1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:15.000 places are doing. They you know, it's already in there. 1:01:15.000 --> 1:01:17.800 So they're charging the fee because they've you know, they've 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:20.520 taken this money. They're charging the fee. They're legitimizing it 1:01:20.520 --> 1:01:23.240 because they've got to repay the ticketing company and they 1:01:23.280 --> 1:01:25.560 also want to make a profit. So the fee. I'm 1:01:25.600 --> 1:01:27.200 not saying it's all going to Ticke company, but part 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:28.919 of it probably is, and then some of it's coming 1:01:28.920 --> 1:01:30.840 to them, and some of it maybe's going to promoter. 1:01:30.960 --> 1:01:32.960 I mean, I don't know what their venue deal is, 1:01:33.160 --> 1:01:36.000 you know, for every date, every show, but they may 1:01:36.160 --> 1:01:37.520 they may have a deal like that. You know, you 1:01:37.560 --> 1:01:39.040 come in, your partner with us, will give you a 1:01:39.040 --> 1:01:39.760 piece of the ticketing. 1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:43.720 Okay, let's flip the script a little bit. Let's talk 1:01:43.720 --> 1:01:49.080 about Titesky Trucks. You're the agent. They're playing bigger venues 1:01:50.040 --> 1:01:53.040 now at this point in time. You know, we'll go 1:01:53.200 --> 1:01:56.440 back in time. But they have an overall deal with Live. 1:01:56.320 --> 1:01:58.680 Nation right now. 1:01:58.720 --> 1:02:03.440 They do, yes, Okay, So what are your feelings about 1:02:03.440 --> 1:02:05.240 overall deals, touring deals? 1:02:07.040 --> 1:02:09.200 You know, it really depends on the situation, and it 1:02:09.280 --> 1:02:12.560 depends on the you know, who's doing it and what 1:02:12.600 --> 1:02:16.520 they're capable of doing. There's other than Ticketmaster sorry, Live Nation. 1:02:18.440 --> 1:02:20.560 There are other people out there trying to do these 1:02:20.640 --> 1:02:22.640 kinds of deals, right. I mean, Age obviously has been 1:02:22.640 --> 1:02:25.640 doing it for a while. We'll take Louisina out of 1:02:25.640 --> 1:02:28.280 it for a second, because that's kind of a different scenario. 1:02:29.480 --> 1:02:31.640 But you know there's other people doing it. There's you know, 1:02:31.640 --> 1:02:33.400 a venom now in America is trying to do the 1:02:33.440 --> 1:02:36.880 same thing, right, the ticketing company from Germany. There's been 1:02:37.000 --> 1:02:41.440 promoters that, you know, independent promoters that have tried to 1:02:41.720 --> 1:02:44.520 do a similar thing. Some of them now are backed, 1:02:44.680 --> 1:02:47.040 you know, by bigger money to do a similar thing. 1:02:47.480 --> 1:02:51.640 So my question always is as an agent is excuse me, 1:02:52.600 --> 1:02:55.480 can they can they take the place of the local person, 1:02:55.720 --> 1:02:59.040 you know, the local promoter or and or you know, 1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:02.040 the local marketing piece people like if they're living in 1:03:03.080 --> 1:03:05.160 I don't know, a city to Buke, Iowa. Let's say 1:03:05.200 --> 1:03:07.280 the promoter's living which probably isn't the case, but let's 1:03:07.280 --> 1:03:09.080 say they are. Are they going to know what's happening 1:03:09.120 --> 1:03:14.200 in Newark, New Jersey? Probably not. You can in today's world, 1:03:14.200 --> 1:03:19.000 you can do marketing the social media obviously, if you 1:03:19.000 --> 1:03:21.200 can do it anywhere in the world, right, that's not 1:03:21.520 --> 1:03:23.600 a surprise. I mean, you could even buy time on 1:03:23.720 --> 1:03:26.440 radio from anywhere. Really, if you want, although there's little 1:03:26.440 --> 1:03:28.479 of that being done. There's not so much print being done, 1:03:28.480 --> 1:03:30.680 so it's not a matter of doing that. But when 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:33.080 and where? When when that was still happening and there 1:03:33.160 --> 1:03:35.320 was these kind of national things going on, I always 1:03:35.400 --> 1:03:37.960 question are they getting the right deal? You know, do 1:03:38.000 --> 1:03:40.360 they have a deal where the local guy might do 1:03:40.400 --> 1:03:42.480 they know all the ins and outs locally? Do they 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:44.360 have do they know the jocks at the station, or 1:03:44.360 --> 1:03:47.200 are they're just calling up sales and you know, ordering spots. 1:03:47.720 --> 1:03:51.160 So to me, there's something about having the person in 1:03:51.200 --> 1:03:54.760 the market, especially when you're developing an act. So maybe 1:03:54.760 --> 1:03:56.520 when an act gets to a certain level, it's just 1:03:56.560 --> 1:03:59.480 all right, we're putting the show on. Okay, there's still 1:03:59.520 --> 1:04:01.520 things that happen to be done, and there's still probably 1:04:01.520 --> 1:04:03.720 marketing it needs to be done as well to make 1:04:03.760 --> 1:04:05.800 sure that you're doing the business or increase the business. 1:04:06.440 --> 1:04:08.360 But you know, as you're coming up, are they going 1:04:08.440 --> 1:04:12.440 to have the same wherewithal Now from a live nation perspective, 1:04:13.000 --> 1:04:15.360 they do have offices in virtually older major cities, so 1:04:15.720 --> 1:04:18.080 you can say that they have their localized people right, 1:04:18.160 --> 1:04:22.240 So maybe that makes you know, that makes more sense 1:04:22.280 --> 1:04:24.400 than somebody that's doing it, that just says, oh, yeah, 1:04:24.400 --> 1:04:26.520 I'm going to call you know, I'm gonna call the Beacon, 1:04:26.600 --> 1:04:28.400 or I'm gonna call Madison Square Garden and book the 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:30.680 Beacon and I'm going to do a show there. But 1:04:30.720 --> 1:04:33.680 I live in Minnesota and there's people doing it all 1:04:33.720 --> 1:04:35.680 the time because it's easy enough to do these days. 1:04:35.880 --> 1:04:37.920 You know, it's not like it was in the old days, right, 1:04:38.400 --> 1:04:40.080 And you know, they'll fly in if they have to, 1:04:40.160 --> 1:04:41.760 or they'll hire somebody to go cover the date. It's 1:04:41.760 --> 1:04:43.400 a lot of these guys that are people around there 1:04:43.440 --> 1:04:46.400 that are doing and there's not lots and lots of them, 1:04:46.400 --> 1:04:48.400 but there's quite a few now that are doing like 1:04:48.480 --> 1:04:51.520 these tour deals or whatever. You know, they're hiring somebody 1:04:51.520 --> 1:04:54.080 to be like the tour manager. So and they're on 1:04:54.160 --> 1:04:57.480 the road, you know, covering the shows because they you know, 1:04:57.560 --> 1:04:59.600 the promoter's doing other stuff too, so he's not going 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:01.200 to be able to cover all the shows. I mean, 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:04.320 back in the day, you know, there was Larry Magott 1:05:04.320 --> 1:05:06.560 and Philly. There was Don Law in Boston. There was 1:05:06.640 --> 1:05:08.960 Ron dels Are in New York. Right, your guy had 1:05:08.960 --> 1:05:12.680 the city wired, he had all the stuff locally wored 1:05:12.720 --> 1:05:16.240 and maybe that's part of why the developmental thing isn't 1:05:16.240 --> 1:05:17.880 as strong as it was. Maybe that's a little bit 1:05:18.000 --> 1:05:19.560 part of it. I mean, there's other reasons obviously the 1:05:19.960 --> 1:05:23.240 radio stations, record companies, et cetera. But maybe it's because 1:05:23.240 --> 1:05:27.200 it's gotten so nationalized. We're losing out on that, you know, 1:05:27.240 --> 1:05:30.480 we're losing out on the guy or person that's developing 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:33.040 that act, you know, for that region like you know, 1:05:33.160 --> 1:05:36.320 Philly around the Philly area or Pennsylvania or whatever, you know, 1:05:36.480 --> 1:05:38.720 whatever you want to call it, the metro New York 1:05:38.760 --> 1:05:42.880 City area or you know Syracuse and Rochester, New York, 1:05:43.760 --> 1:05:46.120 where before you had somebody working on because they wanted 1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:50.880 to develop business. So the independent you know venues now 1:05:51.640 --> 1:05:55.040 have kind of taken over that role, only they don't 1:05:55.040 --> 1:05:59.600 all have that wherewithal you know, financially as well, some 1:05:59.640 --> 1:06:02.440 of them, but not all of them. And they also 1:06:02.560 --> 1:06:05.520 if they're running five six nights a week or more, 1:06:05.600 --> 1:06:08.040 some of them run seven. If you're running five or 1:06:08.040 --> 1:06:10.680 six nights a week, that's that's really difficult to do. 1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:13.040 You know. Back again, back in the day, they were 1:06:13.040 --> 1:06:16.320 doing maybe a show a week, maybe a couple of month, 1:06:16.480 --> 1:06:18.960 you know, and then eventually they had multiples and they 1:06:19.000 --> 1:06:21.440 had to hire other people. But still they weren't doing 1:06:21.760 --> 1:06:23.560 you know, they weren't doing three hundred and sixty five 1:06:23.640 --> 1:06:27.120 shows a lot of them. Right these venues now are 1:06:27.200 --> 1:06:29.920 you know they're running They're doing two hundred and eighty 1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:33.000 or whatever. You know, I mean, I know one venue 1:06:33.840 --> 1:06:35.360 close to where I live that there's one hundred and 1:06:35.440 --> 1:06:39.520 thirty seven okay, small theater, right, so that's a lot 1:06:39.520 --> 1:06:41.919 of shows. If they were trying to do the rest 1:06:41.960 --> 1:06:43.800 of the country, how would they you know what I mean, 1:06:43.800 --> 1:06:46.320 how would they concentrate on what they're doing locally? So 1:06:46.400 --> 1:06:48.760 that's that's my general feeling on that. Okay. 1:06:48.800 --> 1:06:55.440 The old logic was if I go independently, the promoter 1:06:55.560 --> 1:06:58.440 has a relationship. If I have I'm a good draw, 1:06:59.200 --> 1:07:02.560 I can make more money. But I could have a 1:07:02.600 --> 1:07:05.480 bad date for whatever reason, turns out I'm soft in 1:07:05.520 --> 1:07:08.680 the market, it's weather whatever, blah blah blah. Whereas I 1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:13.280 made an overall deal, my money was guaranteed. Then you 1:07:13.400 --> 1:07:17.840 have the Michael Cole paradigm. What he started was I'll 1:07:17.880 --> 1:07:21.320 pay you the money, don't ask me how I make 1:07:21.600 --> 1:07:29.360 my money. Okay, And so if there's an overall tour 1:07:29.480 --> 1:07:33.200 deal today. I mean Arthur Fowell works there at Live Nation. 1:07:33.360 --> 1:07:35.720 Michael Cole is not a part of that. To what 1:07:35.840 --> 1:07:39.200 de do you just say, Okay, I negotiate the biggest 1:07:39.280 --> 1:07:41.520 number I can and I just leave the rest of 1:07:41.560 --> 1:07:46.040 the air. And to what degree can you control them? 1:07:46.200 --> 1:07:52.160 Well? Okay, so again a lot to unback. I guess 1:07:52.240 --> 1:07:54.880 when you get to a certain level, it's like, okay, 1:07:55.200 --> 1:08:01.560 I'll just I'll give you a a an example, but 1:08:01.720 --> 1:08:03.320 not in the business, not necessarily for that. And then 1:08:03.320 --> 1:08:05.560 I'll answer the question. If you have a business, you 1:08:05.600 --> 1:08:08.080 build it up. You're an independent and you know you're 1:08:08.120 --> 1:08:10.320 a businessman. Rather you start your own business or an entrepreneur. 1:08:10.400 --> 1:08:13.280 You build your business up and you get along, you know, 1:08:13.400 --> 1:08:17.840 later in life, and you decide, you know what I 1:08:18.120 --> 1:08:20.880 need to I'm working like crazy. I'm banging my head 1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:26.439 against the wall making sure everything happens properly. Somebody comes 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:28.280 along and goes, hey, you know what, I like your business. 1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:30.040 I'm going to give you, you know, ten million dollars 1:08:30.040 --> 1:08:32.439 for it. You think, yeah, but this is like my family, 1:08:32.479 --> 1:08:34.439 blah blah blah. Then you think, okay, how long do 1:08:34.479 --> 1:08:38.240 I have left Okay, I'll take the money, and then 1:08:38.439 --> 1:08:40.160 you know, you've got to be on for whatever it is, 1:08:40.160 --> 1:08:41.679 three to five years, and then you can do whatever 1:08:41.680 --> 1:08:44.600 you want. Maybe you stay, maybe you don't. So I 1:08:44.640 --> 1:08:48.840 think with with not everybody, with certain situations in this 1:08:48.880 --> 1:08:50.960 business as well, you know, you get to a point 1:08:51.000 --> 1:08:56.400 where it's something that I was mentioning before. So I 1:08:56.439 --> 1:08:58.320 had a client, as I said that, you know overseas, 1:08:58.479 --> 1:09:00.800 was concerned that, you know, during COVID, that they'd be 1:09:00.880 --> 1:09:03.280 over there, COVID would come, everything would shut down and 1:09:03.280 --> 1:09:05.519 he'd be stuck on an island and have to pay 1:09:05.560 --> 1:09:08.519 everybody and pay to get everything back and whatever, and 1:09:08.560 --> 1:09:11.240 basically lose his ass right because there would be no shows. 1:09:11.280 --> 1:09:13.600 He was concerned with that. So when you're operating that 1:09:13.680 --> 1:09:15.360 way with some of these acts, and a lot of 1:09:15.400 --> 1:09:19.680 them do, even if they're larger, and you and you 1:09:19.720 --> 1:09:23.559 can realize that, or you realize that if I make 1:09:23.640 --> 1:09:27.000 this deal, I could just take care of I don't 1:09:27.000 --> 1:09:30.960 have to worry about that. I'll take the money, and 1:09:31.080 --> 1:09:32.360 you know, I don't have to worry about anything else. 1:09:32.360 --> 1:09:35.000 I don't have to deal with anything. It sounds easy, right, 1:09:35.040 --> 1:09:38.559 but sometimes it's not that easy. It's not always that easy, 1:09:38.560 --> 1:09:40.960 but it seems that easy. But for them, maybe it 1:09:41.000 --> 1:09:44.240 makes sense. You know, let me take the check and 1:09:44.320 --> 1:09:47.360 you worry about it. They still have to do their 1:09:47.400 --> 1:09:49.479 show and do all the rest of that stuff. But 1:09:49.520 --> 1:09:51.200 maybe they're thinking, I don't have to worry about anything 1:09:51.200 --> 1:09:53.400 else now they deal with it. But as you alluded to, 1:09:54.600 --> 1:09:58.360 most of those deals are yep, don't ask me what 1:09:58.439 --> 1:10:01.479 I'm doing, because I'm gonna do whatever I have to 1:10:01.520 --> 1:10:03.360 do to make it up. I mean, that's the reality. 1:10:03.439 --> 1:10:05.840 I do the same thing. I just gave you ten million. 1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:07.800 Don't ask me how I'm gonna get it back. I'm 1:10:07.800 --> 1:10:10.120 gonna do whatever I have to do to get it back. Now, 1:10:11.200 --> 1:10:14.680 different for me than some is I just don't have 1:10:14.760 --> 1:10:16.800 it in me to do whatever it takes to get 1:10:16.800 --> 1:10:18.240 it back. I'm going to try to do it. You know, 1:10:18.280 --> 1:10:20.880 the way I feel is right, But that's just because 1:10:20.880 --> 1:10:25.000 of who I am. But it's still leaving it out 1:10:25.000 --> 1:10:28.240 there because you even if you think you have controlled, 1:10:28.280 --> 1:10:31.040 you don't have one hundred percent of control. You know, 1:10:31.080 --> 1:10:33.599 you have to give something up. It's why I gave 1:10:33.600 --> 1:10:36.880 you that example of the business, because even though you 1:10:36.920 --> 1:10:39.240 see I'm taking a Timley, and they say to you, 1:10:39.240 --> 1:10:40.680 you can run it the way you want. You can 1:10:40.680 --> 1:10:42.920 do whatever you want. Don't worry about it ain't gonna happen. 1:10:43.000 --> 1:10:44.760 You think it is not going to happen. I just 1:10:44.760 --> 1:10:47.360 told some friends of mine a couple of years ago 1:10:47.360 --> 1:10:51.120 who were out looking for money to you know, invest 1:10:51.160 --> 1:10:53.120 in their business, and they go, we're gonna get this, 1:10:53.120 --> 1:10:54.360 We're gonna get that. And I said, let me let 1:10:54.400 --> 1:10:57.960 me say something to you. You think that that's going 1:10:58.040 --> 1:11:00.240 to answer all your problems and answer every you know, 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:01.880 the questions for you, and you think you're going to 1:11:01.960 --> 1:11:05.439 have control. But if somebody gives you ten million dollars 1:11:05.560 --> 1:11:09.479 or twenty million dollars, they are going to want control. 1:11:09.800 --> 1:11:12.439 They are not giving up control. I'll give it. I 1:11:12.479 --> 1:11:14.639 don't care what they say. I don't care what when 1:11:14.640 --> 1:11:17.520 they put that agreement together, you better read it really carefully. 1:11:17.760 --> 1:11:21.640 Now I speak from experience because my business prior to 1:11:21.680 --> 1:11:25.200 this was a partnership with you know, with an agent 1:11:25.240 --> 1:11:27.519 that we you know, started the business together very much 1:11:27.560 --> 1:11:29.719 the same as I did this one, very small, built 1:11:29.720 --> 1:11:32.679 it up. It was very successful. We made a joint 1:11:32.760 --> 1:11:38.000 venture and it was great, and we expanded and we 1:11:38.040 --> 1:11:40.000 did a lot of great things and whatever, and for 1:11:40.040 --> 1:11:42.400 the most part, we were we did what we wanted 1:11:42.439 --> 1:11:44.360 to do. We still had to ask because it was 1:11:44.400 --> 1:11:47.760 a fifty to fifty joint venture, but they agreed until 1:11:49.320 --> 1:11:54.040 the administration changed and then it was like, what are 1:11:54.040 --> 1:11:57.040 you guys doing? We don't understand. Why are you doing this? Why? 1:11:58.400 --> 1:12:00.280 And then it was like, okay, we have to do 1:12:00.439 --> 1:12:02.080 this over here to expand, and we're going to need 1:12:02.080 --> 1:12:04.360 this much money. Well, I don't know if we want 1:12:04.360 --> 1:12:06.640 to give you that money to do that, you know. 1:12:06.720 --> 1:12:11.400 And then things changed overnight and I was sitting thinking, Okay, now, 1:12:11.439 --> 1:12:16.280 what how do I get myself into this? So it 1:12:16.400 --> 1:12:20.679 sounds good from the outset, but if you take the check, 1:12:20.880 --> 1:12:21.920 you're giving up control. 1:12:29.600 --> 1:12:34.240 Okay, let's go. When a step before, before there was 1:12:34.280 --> 1:12:38.360 an overall deal for Tedesky trucks, what would be the 1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:41.240 negotiations and what were those tours like? 1:12:42.840 --> 1:12:47.160 Well, see, so the Tedesky trucks are or however, you 1:12:47.160 --> 1:12:49.320 know whatever, It doesn't matter who the act is. But 1:12:49.600 --> 1:12:53.639 in my you know, theory, not just my personal theory, 1:12:54.080 --> 1:13:02.679 you can you can probably do the same either way, 1:13:02.840 --> 1:13:04.880 you know what I mean, You can do the same 1:13:04.920 --> 1:13:07.960 sort of things and probably have basically the same business 1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:11.000 either way. But as I said it, maybe it may 1:13:11.040 --> 1:13:14.240 look easier to do this right because you either have 1:13:14.280 --> 1:13:16.599 to do less work, you have less risk, and that's 1:13:16.600 --> 1:13:19.000 a lot of it is the risk. So you do 1:13:19.080 --> 1:13:22.960 this and there's less risk, and maybe you just end 1:13:23.080 --> 1:13:24.400 up at the same place at the end, you know, 1:13:24.600 --> 1:13:26.240 or close, or maybe you're a little bit ahead. So 1:13:26.280 --> 1:13:28.880 that's good, you know, Is it twice as far ahead? 1:13:28.920 --> 1:13:31.519 I don't know, you know, it's still to be seen. 1:13:32.400 --> 1:13:34.240 I think a lot of those big tours and I'm 1:13:34.280 --> 1:13:37.640 not avoiding the answer the question. Rather, I'm trying to 1:13:38.240 --> 1:13:39.920 I'm trying to give you more of a full answer. 1:13:39.960 --> 1:13:41.880 Like a lot of those tours that are you know, 1:13:41.920 --> 1:13:44.840 the what do you call it, you know, the tour deals, right, 1:13:44.880 --> 1:13:48.880 the big packages. We're done for a lot of different reasons. 1:13:48.920 --> 1:13:50.439 One of them, you know, one of them maybe was 1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:53.599 on creativity, you know, based on creativity, because they felt 1:13:53.640 --> 1:13:56.400 like if they made this deal and somebody was producing 1:13:56.439 --> 1:13:59.040 the whole tour, they had more control on the creative 1:13:59.080 --> 1:14:01.760 side because then they could roll in with whatever they 1:14:01.800 --> 1:14:04.040 wanted and basically just do what they want. Well, it 1:14:04.040 --> 1:14:08.120 doesn't not necessarily, but maybe closer, you know, and maybe yes, 1:14:08.160 --> 1:14:09.439 maybe at the end of the day you'll get almost 1:14:09.479 --> 1:14:13.440 as much, sorry, almost one hundred percent of whatever you want. 1:14:13.800 --> 1:14:16.040 And then another reason again was risk. You know, you 1:14:16.080 --> 1:14:19.439 want to somebody wants to take on a situation and 1:14:19.439 --> 1:14:22.479 they want to have, you know, put out a bigger show. 1:14:23.040 --> 1:14:26.559 There's a huge risk in that, you know, a risk 1:14:26.560 --> 1:14:29.559 getting into it, and then you probably come out okay, 1:14:29.600 --> 1:14:31.240 but you're still risking coming in because you've got to 1:14:31.240 --> 1:14:33.840 you got to finance it. So maybe that's the other 1:14:33.840 --> 1:14:35.880 reason is the risk, as I said earlier, so risk 1:14:36.000 --> 1:14:38.640 is a big thing as well. Now, so the question was, 1:14:38.640 --> 1:14:40.920 you know, how of the negotiations go. Well, when when 1:14:40.960 --> 1:14:45.360 you're dealing on forty or fifty shows independently, you're dealing 1:14:45.400 --> 1:14:48.559 with you know, each promoter office, it's a little different 1:14:48.600 --> 1:14:51.320 than you know, having a tour deal, so some of 1:14:51.360 --> 1:14:54.400 them may be the same places that you're playing, but 1:14:54.640 --> 1:14:57.040 it's coming in as you know, an overall tour deal, 1:14:57.120 --> 1:15:00.280 so you're not necessarily negotiating each of the to the 1:15:00.360 --> 1:15:03.280 dates individually. At the end of the day, the shows 1:15:03.280 --> 1:15:07.200 will be the same, you know, the earnings may be 1:15:07.320 --> 1:15:11.960 higher maybe or may be the same, but again the 1:15:12.080 --> 1:15:16.920 risk is out the ability to coordinate things from one 1:15:16.960 --> 1:15:20.000 place who is attractive to some people. The show is 1:15:20.040 --> 1:15:24.000 still being done virtually the same way. I mean, it 1:15:24.040 --> 1:15:26.600 may change in certain people's cases. As I said, you know, 1:15:26.640 --> 1:15:28.840 it may be that they're out on the road and 1:15:28.840 --> 1:15:30.000 they want it. You know, Like I had a client 1:15:30.000 --> 1:15:31.880 the other day that said, oh, if I only had 1:15:31.920 --> 1:15:36.520 somebody that would finance the whole tour, I bring screens 1:15:36.600 --> 1:15:38.360 and I'd do this, and I do that. So there's 1:15:38.400 --> 1:15:41.160 a reason why they would do it because they want 1:15:41.160 --> 1:15:43.320 to put on a bigger show. You know. I don't 1:15:43.320 --> 1:15:44.840 even know if they're thinking about at the end of 1:15:44.880 --> 1:15:46.760 they making more money. They might be, but I think 1:15:46.760 --> 1:15:50.880 they're thinking about presenting a bigger show and the investment 1:15:50.920 --> 1:15:54.439 it takes to do that, you know, up front. So 1:15:54.479 --> 1:15:55.880 I think that may be a lot of the reasons. 1:15:55.960 --> 1:15:59.160 Well, let me let me be clearer. Okay, Yeah, prior 1:15:59.200 --> 1:16:01.200 to making a little we're all deal with Live Nation 1:16:01.640 --> 1:16:05.439 with Tedesky Trucks. Let's take that off the table. If 1:16:05.479 --> 1:16:09.639 there were fifty dates, did you work with fifty different 1:16:09.640 --> 1:16:16.320 promoters and have to negotiate fifty different deals? Yes, Now, 1:16:16.400 --> 1:16:19.200 when you're making a deal. I have literally sat with 1:16:19.320 --> 1:16:22.400 the promoter where they have the computer, and they show 1:16:22.439 --> 1:16:25.880 me the two sets of books. There's the one they 1:16:25.960 --> 1:16:28.880 send to the act and the one for them. So 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:30.680 the one that goes to the acts as they're in 1:16:30.720 --> 1:16:34.080 the red, the one that's in the black, theirs, which 1:16:34.080 --> 1:16:37.160 they don't show the actions that they made money. So 1:16:37.880 --> 1:16:41.360 from beginning to end, how do you get I mean, 1:16:41.400 --> 1:16:45.680 it's constant war between agents and promoters. How do you 1:16:45.800 --> 1:16:49.599 make sure you get the most money and don't get screwed? 1:16:51.800 --> 1:16:59.520 How do you make some Well, if I'm gonna just trust, 1:17:00.320 --> 1:17:03.240 there's no way to make sure. Bob, how do you 1:17:03.280 --> 1:17:05.200 know your bank's not stealing from you right now? You 1:17:05.240 --> 1:17:05.880 have no idea? 1:17:07.160 --> 1:17:10.240 Well, you know, as you talk about changes in the business, 1:17:10.320 --> 1:17:15.200 they sent out these two accountants whatever who were more 1:17:15.560 --> 1:17:19.720 line by line, and we're arguing it more as opposed 1:17:19.760 --> 1:17:22.600 to trust. Now you have to pay that person and 1:17:22.640 --> 1:17:25.800 sometimes there's not enough money or else the advance is 1:17:25.840 --> 1:17:28.200 so big, you know they have to steal from you 1:17:28.240 --> 1:17:29.479 in order to make it work. 1:17:29.600 --> 1:17:32.760 But even if you're going line by line, okay, okay, 1:17:34.560 --> 1:17:36.639 if you're if you're in a settlement, and you're going 1:17:36.680 --> 1:17:39.160 line by line, they go, the advertising costs this much, 1:17:39.280 --> 1:17:41.439 and then they go, here are the receipts. Well, how 1:17:41.479 --> 1:17:43.439 do you know you're going to call every radio station, 1:17:43.760 --> 1:17:47.280 you're going to call every newspaper. Well, first of all, 1:17:47.320 --> 1:17:49.800 this is going back pre today. Let's say, you know, 1:17:49.840 --> 1:17:53.160 going back ten years, fifteen years, whatever. The local guy 1:17:53.160 --> 1:17:55.160 has a deal with all those people. Why because he's 1:17:55.200 --> 1:17:58.519 doing volume right today. It's in the agreements, right, it 1:17:58.560 --> 1:18:02.040 says any disc count afforded to us does not go 1:18:02.120 --> 1:18:04.000 in the deal. It's right there in black and white. 1:18:04.640 --> 1:18:07.280 So that immediately admits that there has always been discounts, 1:18:08.600 --> 1:18:12.640 but we suspected that anyway. Of course there's discounts. And 1:18:12.840 --> 1:18:16.080 those re seats like are they real or did they 1:18:16.120 --> 1:18:18.479 get are they computer generated? Or? I mean today we 1:18:18.479 --> 1:18:19.679 can make anything on a computer. 1:18:19.800 --> 1:18:19.960 Right. 1:18:20.320 --> 1:18:22.760 So that's why I say this trust involved. Because you 1:18:22.800 --> 1:18:24.559 look at it and you could go line by line 1:18:24.560 --> 1:18:26.960 by line, that doesn't mean the reality. I remember back 1:18:27.200 --> 1:18:29.439 when the tour account started going out, they were counting 1:18:29.479 --> 1:18:33.120 seats and venues, right Literally, it'd go around counting the 1:18:33.120 --> 1:18:35.040 seats to make sure you know, blah blah blah blah 1:18:35.080 --> 1:18:36.920 blah to make sure the seats were there, and then 1:18:36.960 --> 1:18:40.080 they'd say, oh, there's five more seats. Well, okay, so 1:18:40.160 --> 1:18:42.360 you caught them for five seats, but what else is 1:18:42.400 --> 1:18:44.880 going on? Like, you can't, you can't, you're not in 1:18:44.920 --> 1:18:47.680 the box office. You don't know what's really going on. 1:18:47.760 --> 1:18:50.280 It looks good, and yes, you know at a certain 1:18:50.400 --> 1:18:52.200 level you do need somebody out there doing that. You 1:18:52.200 --> 1:18:54.880 don't want to just blindly go through it. But there 1:18:54.960 --> 1:18:58.360 is a large amount of trust involved in the meantime. 1:18:58.640 --> 1:19:01.599 What you're saying about the double books is funny because 1:19:01.600 --> 1:19:02.880 I brought that up in one of the meetings I 1:19:02.920 --> 1:19:04.680 was having this past week, and it was like, and 1:19:04.680 --> 1:19:05.760 they were shocked, what do you mean? 1:19:06.479 --> 1:19:06.680 You know? 1:19:07.640 --> 1:19:10.559 You know it happens. I know it happens. But also 1:19:10.600 --> 1:19:12.639 if you own it, see so part of the differences 1:19:12.760 --> 1:19:14.400 I think, I think, but I didn't see the books. 1:19:14.439 --> 1:19:16.639 You saw. You know what you saw. If you own 1:19:16.680 --> 1:19:22.200 a venue, right, or you control a venue, you can 1:19:22.280 --> 1:19:28.719 show the actual show, maybe losing money, right, the selling 1:19:28.760 --> 1:19:32.439 the tickets, people coming in and sitting okay, But then 1:19:32.479 --> 1:19:34.880 the question becomes, all right, but what else is there? 1:19:35.600 --> 1:19:38.400 So that's in the red and that's what normally we 1:19:38.439 --> 1:19:40.880 see but what about you know, again, depending on the venue, 1:19:40.880 --> 1:19:43.200 it's like the sports venues or you know, the arenas today, 1:19:43.560 --> 1:19:45.120 you go in there and none none of the boxes 1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:49.040 are in the manifest, right, none of the special you know, 1:19:49.080 --> 1:19:52.960 annual deals they do are in the manifest. You know, 1:19:53.040 --> 1:19:55.240 there's all of that. So so that could be part 1:19:55.280 --> 1:19:57.160 of it. Right, They go, Okay, we're making money because 1:19:57.160 --> 1:19:59.160 we've got you know, parking, and we've got the bar, 1:19:59.360 --> 1:20:01.320 and we've got this, and we've got the ticketing feed, 1:20:01.360 --> 1:20:03.640 and we've got the venue fee, and we've got you know, 1:20:03.720 --> 1:20:06.439 our club seats, and we've got our members and all 1:20:06.479 --> 1:20:09.000 the rest of it. So you know, they look at 1:20:09.000 --> 1:20:10.120 that and they go, okay, we made money, but we 1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:12.880 lost money here. But you know, that's but that's part 1:20:12.920 --> 1:20:15.240 of that model, and it's been developed, and that's why 1:20:15.360 --> 1:20:17.599 you know, there's certain entities that you know that are 1:20:17.800 --> 1:20:21.200 out you know, building venues and making venues and and 1:20:21.520 --> 1:20:25.360 you know, some of these club the larger club guys 1:20:25.600 --> 1:20:29.640 control multiple rooms. What we see as a settlement on 1:20:29.680 --> 1:20:32.280 the show, we don't see the settlement on the business, Like, 1:20:32.320 --> 1:20:34.679 what's the real settlement on the business. We never see 1:20:34.680 --> 1:20:38.200 that really you know Jake Gold of course, right, So 1:20:38.320 --> 1:20:39.840 Jake told me a story and I know you love 1:20:39.880 --> 1:20:42.439 this because you love Jake as I do so Jay. 1:20:42.479 --> 1:20:46.400 When I was representing the Tragically Hippy years ago and 1:20:46.439 --> 1:20:53.240 I started to represent them in Canada, Jake used to 1:20:53.280 --> 1:20:55.120 tell me stories about when they went out on the 1:20:55.200 --> 1:20:57.960 road and sometimes and I told this story actually to 1:20:58.000 --> 1:21:00.599 somebody this weekend at the not this this week because 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:02.880 it was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday at the conference, because they 1:21:02.880 --> 1:21:04.840 were talking about the bar and the tickets and whatever. 1:21:04.960 --> 1:21:06.640 So Jake used to say to me, you know, if 1:21:06.640 --> 1:21:08.439 a club owner doesn't want didn't want the act in 1:21:08.479 --> 1:21:11.120 the early days, I'd tell them, you can have the 1:21:11.160 --> 1:21:13.679 act for free, give me the bar, because I knew 1:21:13.680 --> 1:21:17.479 people were going to drink. And I'd say yeah, and 1:21:17.479 --> 1:21:19.000 then you know, I remember going to the shows and 1:21:19.000 --> 1:21:21.559 I'm thinking, Jesus Christ, they do drink, you know. And 1:21:21.640 --> 1:21:23.120 so he was willing to trade the door for the 1:21:23.160 --> 1:21:24.960 bar because he knew that they were making more money 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:26.360 in the bar than he was making at the door. 1:21:27.800 --> 1:21:31.120 So you know that's my point, like, well, he knew 1:21:31.160 --> 1:21:33.760 because you know, Jake is Jake, and he probably you know, 1:21:33.800 --> 1:21:35.439 went in there and you know figured it out. He 1:21:35.479 --> 1:21:37.639 probably counted the people and how many drinks they had. 1:21:38.120 --> 1:21:41.400 But you know, we don't know what the business is doing. 1:21:41.439 --> 1:21:44.120 We just know what we're seeing, you know, we're seeing 1:21:44.320 --> 1:21:46.000 It's like the airlines. You know, they go, well, we're 1:21:46.000 --> 1:21:48.160 losing not anymore today because they weren't making money, but 1:21:48.160 --> 1:21:50.639 we're losing money. Well, why you lose money? Well, fuels, this, 1:21:50.640 --> 1:21:53.400 this is this, this is the so now they're charging, 1:21:53.439 --> 1:21:55.160 you know, for baggage. You want to sit over here, 1:21:55.160 --> 1:21:56.400 you got to pay this. You want an upgrade, you 1:21:56.439 --> 1:21:57.519 want to pay this. You want to get on early, 1:21:57.560 --> 1:21:59.320 you pay this. They figured out it's the same sort 1:21:59.360 --> 1:22:04.800 of model. It's the same model. Hey for extras, let's 1:22:04.800 --> 1:22:06.960 do upgrades. Let's do all of this, right, you got 1:22:07.040 --> 1:22:08.880 your normal guy. How many people want to sit in 1:22:08.880 --> 1:22:11.479 the very back and be the basic economy? Not many, 1:22:12.080 --> 1:22:14.160 So they say, here's basic economy. It's not bad. You 1:22:14.160 --> 1:22:17.639 can fly to Chicago for three hundred bucks, but bags 1:22:17.680 --> 1:22:21.639 fifty dollars early. You know, on the plane twenty five bucks. 1:22:22.680 --> 1:22:24.240 Sit in a seat where you can actually put your 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:27.200 legs out right, that's another fifty bucks. And just keep 1:22:27.200 --> 1:22:28.720 doing that. It's all add ons. 1:22:29.880 --> 1:22:35.840 Okay, in these larger venues, you know there's a law 1:22:35.960 --> 1:22:39.080 now you have to show the overall price. But as 1:22:39.120 --> 1:22:42.479 an agent, what about negotiating in terms of the ticket 1:22:42.520 --> 1:22:45.760 prices and the add ons on these bigger buildings. 1:22:48.960 --> 1:22:52.360 Ah, that's ticketing things. You know, there's a never ending 1:22:52.400 --> 1:22:56.720 conversation or battle. Honestly. First of first of all, the 1:22:56.720 --> 1:23:01.320 the all end price was a good concept and principle, 1:23:02.479 --> 1:23:08.000 but I don't think it is in the actual everyday usage. 1:23:08.160 --> 1:23:10.880 I had a manager that called me the other day 1:23:10.960 --> 1:23:13.920 and when it took effect in New York, and he 1:23:14.040 --> 1:23:17.880 said he got a something from a fan that they 1:23:17.880 --> 1:23:20.160 were playing somewhere. It was like the ticket was fifty bucks. 1:23:20.280 --> 1:23:23.160 I think it was fifty five something like that, and 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:28.000 they flipped it to all in pricing. So the fifty 1:23:28.000 --> 1:23:31.080 five dollars ticket became sixty eight. So the fan was 1:23:31.120 --> 1:23:33.600 emailing saying, I was going to buy a ticket, but 1:23:33.720 --> 1:23:37.200 you increased the price to sixty eight. Well, the artist 1:23:37.200 --> 1:23:39.840 didn't increase the price. Price is the same. The fees 1:23:39.840 --> 1:23:41.799 increased the price and it went to all in ticketing. 1:23:42.040 --> 1:23:44.800 And depending on what platform you're on. And he was 1:23:44.840 --> 1:23:46.760 explaining to me on the particular platform he was on. 1:23:46.840 --> 1:23:48.680 It doesn't show you that until you check out. It 1:23:48.720 --> 1:23:50.840 does give you all the fees when you check out, 1:23:51.160 --> 1:23:53.120 but not until you check out. There is I understand. 1:23:53.160 --> 1:23:55.439 I haven't been on all the platforms, and this was 1:23:55.479 --> 1:23:59.479 a big conversation in Milwaukee, and on one of the 1:23:59.479 --> 1:24:02.519 platforms it shows you upfront what the fees are. I 1:24:02.600 --> 1:24:07.120 still don't think that the public really understands that, nor 1:24:07.160 --> 1:24:09.000 do I think we could really make them understand it 1:24:09.080 --> 1:24:11.040 or get them to understand what it is, because they 1:24:11.439 --> 1:24:15.600 think it's the artist, and the artists in the you know, 1:24:15.680 --> 1:24:20.599 in the larger scenarios maybe be maybe controlling the overall. Right, 1:24:20.960 --> 1:24:22.840 they may be able to say, and I'm talking about 1:24:22.880 --> 1:24:26.080 the big one percent or top ten, whatever you want 1:24:26.080 --> 1:24:27.880 to call it. They may be able to say, here's 1:24:27.920 --> 1:24:29.479 what I want the ticket to be, and the fee 1:24:29.520 --> 1:24:31.120 has to be no more than this and this and this. 1:24:31.240 --> 1:24:33.240 They can control that because honestly, you want that tour, 1:24:33.280 --> 1:24:35.080 that's what you do, or you don't get it. So 1:24:35.160 --> 1:24:38.439 they probably do control that. But for the you know, 1:24:38.520 --> 1:24:41.520 working man's act or the working act, as I say, 1:24:41.320 --> 1:24:44.400 then they can't control that. So you know, they decide 1:24:44.400 --> 1:24:45.920 they want a twenty five dollars the ticket it ends 1:24:46.000 --> 1:24:48.439 up being thirty five. You know, it's probably more than 1:24:48.479 --> 1:24:53.400 they should charge for that particular act. And there's no 1:24:53.439 --> 1:24:55.120 real way to control it because you got the you know, 1:24:55.120 --> 1:24:56.599 you got the fees for the building, get the fees 1:24:56.640 --> 1:24:59.400 for the ticketing company. And we just went through why. 1:24:59.479 --> 1:25:02.120 You know, it's advances, it's splitting it with somebody, it's 1:25:02.160 --> 1:25:04.600 whatever it is. It doesn't even matter anymore. It's the 1:25:04.680 --> 1:25:07.519 fact that they're there. So all In was supposed to 1:25:07.800 --> 1:25:10.120 quote unquote solve it. All it does is just lump 1:25:10.120 --> 1:25:12.800 in one lump sum. And so the good part about 1:25:12.800 --> 1:25:13.920 it is you can see what the price is and 1:25:13.960 --> 1:25:15.320 you go, you know what, that's too high. I'm not 1:25:15.360 --> 1:25:19.439 buying it. Whereas before maybe if it stated, you know, whatever, 1:25:19.439 --> 1:25:21.240 it was fifty five dollars or if it was a 1:25:21.320 --> 1:25:23.760 seventy five or whatever it was, and not like ninety eight, 1:25:24.360 --> 1:25:25.920 you look at it and go, okay, I'll buy that. 1:25:25.960 --> 1:25:27.960 Oh there's these fees and that's like tax. It's like, 1:25:28.000 --> 1:25:30.720 oh shit, okay, you know, okay, I'll have to pay 1:25:30.720 --> 1:25:32.880 that at the end. But you see them. The argument was, 1:25:33.240 --> 1:25:35.840 or at least from our standpoint, is a talent representative. 1:25:36.479 --> 1:25:39.639 We wanted everybody to see the price, to be aware 1:25:39.680 --> 1:25:42.920 what you're paying and what the fees are for. We 1:25:42.960 --> 1:25:45.800 wanted them to know the artist is charging this and 1:25:45.880 --> 1:25:49.040 these are the fees, so you're paying that because of that. 1:25:50.040 --> 1:25:54.360 Okay, what's your view on authorized resale? Ticket Master says 1:25:54.720 --> 1:25:57.200 the ACT has the right to turn that off R on. 1:25:57.520 --> 1:26:01.320 I've heard, you know, not my personal experience. I've heard 1:26:01.320 --> 1:26:05.160 from some agents that ticket Master turned it on. They 1:26:05.160 --> 1:26:07.479 weren't aware of it. They had to call them to 1:26:07.560 --> 1:26:10.000 them to turn it off. What's your philosophy and what's 1:26:10.040 --> 1:26:10.800 your experience? 1:26:11.880 --> 1:26:13.960 Experience is very similar to what you say. I've had it, 1:26:14.040 --> 1:26:17.760 you know, turned on without without knowing, and then you 1:26:17.840 --> 1:26:20.120 call it turn it off, and I haven't. It hasn't 1:26:20.120 --> 1:26:24.280 happened recently. But when it started to have out, they 1:26:24.320 --> 1:26:26.760 turned it off initially and then later said no, we're 1:26:26.760 --> 1:26:29.720 not going to turn it off, and they they reverted 1:26:29.760 --> 1:26:32.599 to we'll keep it off until it gets to ninety 1:26:32.600 --> 1:26:35.360 eight percent, then we're turning it on or some percentage 1:26:35.360 --> 1:26:37.120 I don't remember off the top of my head, and 1:26:37.160 --> 1:26:39.519 then we're turning it on automatically. The thing is that 1:26:39.560 --> 1:26:41.479 Once you get to that percentage and it turns on, 1:26:41.920 --> 1:26:44.280 that just opens up the floodgate because then everybody has 1:26:44.320 --> 1:26:46.000 tickets can put them up on resale, and if the 1:26:46.000 --> 1:26:48.400 bots have them, and if whoever has them, all of 1:26:48.439 --> 1:26:51.800 a sudden boom, there they go. So my philosophy on 1:26:51.840 --> 1:26:56.080 resale is I okay, my personal philosophy. My personal philosophy 1:26:56.120 --> 1:26:58.080 is resale is fine. It should be at face value 1:26:58.080 --> 1:27:01.240 with a minimal up charge whatever whatever you want to 1:27:01.280 --> 1:27:04.040 call it. You got a ticket for one hundred bucks 1:27:04.160 --> 1:27:06.360 or let's say one hundred bucks, two tickets to go 1:27:06.439 --> 1:27:08.240 somewhere your friend can't go, you're going on your own. 1:27:08.240 --> 1:27:10.400 You want to resell it, resell it for one hundred, 1:27:10.400 --> 1:27:12.759 maybe you get one hundred and ten or whatever. Okay, 1:27:12.920 --> 1:27:15.720 to me, that's fair. But when you have it and 1:27:15.760 --> 1:27:19.360 you're reselling it, you're getting two fifty for it, that's 1:27:19.400 --> 1:27:22.200 not fair. But the other side of the argument is 1:27:22.240 --> 1:27:25.280 the act should to charge two fifty to begin with. Well, okay, 1:27:25.600 --> 1:27:27.920 there's always two sides to an argument, and yes, some 1:27:27.960 --> 1:27:30.080 of the acts are charging more for tickets. But again 1:27:30.120 --> 1:27:34.200 I get back to the my statement about you know 1:27:34.240 --> 1:27:40.479 it feels like you know two countries with war weapons. Right, Okay, 1:27:40.479 --> 1:27:42.320 now we're going to charge two fifty for the ticket, 1:27:42.360 --> 1:27:44.839 and now it's three seventy five on the resale market 1:27:45.040 --> 1:27:47.639 because it just goes up again. Right, it doesn't stop 1:27:47.840 --> 1:27:48.400 if we change. 1:27:49.240 --> 1:27:52.320 We've experienced with Beyonce and a couple of other acts 1:27:52.360 --> 1:27:56.160 now where the reseller's secondary market got killed. 1:27:57.120 --> 1:27:59.400 Well, they did because they overbought, right, overbought. 1:27:59.560 --> 1:28:03.120 So there is a price like the Stones. The Stones 1:28:03.160 --> 1:28:07.880 go out, they charge the most. There's really no secondary market, Okay, 1:28:08.000 --> 1:28:11.960 because the tickets are so expensive, they flex price them, etc. 1:28:12.880 --> 1:28:19.080 The viewpoint from the artist has historically been that it 1:28:19.200 --> 1:28:23.760 is bad for us if the ticket is expensive. As 1:28:23.800 --> 1:28:27.160 you say, there's two sides the argument. Yeah, you say 1:28:27.200 --> 1:28:31.720 that tickets under price, secondary market gets the uplift. Do 1:28:31.760 --> 1:28:36.280 you think at this late date, where as they say, 1:28:36.720 --> 1:28:40.960 the level of sophistication is complicated, the public will never 1:28:41.120 --> 1:28:45.080 understand the fees, but the public understands what the value 1:28:45.120 --> 1:28:49.120 of the ticket is. There's always somebody who says, I've 1:28:49.120 --> 1:28:51.679 been listening to this band for twenty years, I should 1:28:51.680 --> 1:28:53.719 be able to sit in the front row for fifty bucks, 1:28:54.000 --> 1:28:57.639 And they're all over complaining it's like you know, when 1:28:57.800 --> 1:29:00.679 Springsteen went over more than one hundred dollars, all those 1:29:00.720 --> 1:29:03.519 people complained. Meanwhile, they go to dinner for more than 1:29:03.560 --> 1:29:06.920 one hundred dollars a person before the damn show. Once 1:29:07.000 --> 1:29:10.519 the show played, nobody cared, not to mention not every 1:29:10.600 --> 1:29:13.880 venue was clean, major markets were clean, whatever, blah blah blah. 1:29:13.880 --> 1:29:17.320 No at this laid date, is it really going to 1:29:17.400 --> 1:29:19.679 hurt the act if you charge what the ticket is worth? 1:29:24.920 --> 1:29:29.280 Yes, I mean I think so, But again, let me so, 1:29:29.520 --> 1:29:33.760 there's two different conversations or two different I don't want 1:29:33.800 --> 1:29:36.719 to say arguments, but there's there's two different scenarios here. 1:29:37.439 --> 1:29:40.720 For the top level acts. You're absolutely right you can 1:29:40.800 --> 1:29:44.559 charge more and maybe they should. Okay, when you again, 1:29:44.600 --> 1:29:47.320 when you get back down to like the working bands, 1:29:47.960 --> 1:29:51.320 that's where it is, that's where it's more most effective 1:29:51.360 --> 1:29:54.000 against them, Right, that's where it hurts the most because 1:29:54.520 --> 1:29:56.599 if they're let's you know, let's call it a fifty 1:29:56.600 --> 1:29:58.680 dollars ticket. When it's a fifty dollars ticket, it's on 1:29:58.760 --> 1:30:00.640 resale for when twenty five s they have charged one 1:30:00.680 --> 1:30:03.880 twenty five, Well, if they did, the resale would be higher. Again, 1:30:03.960 --> 1:30:06.240 now they're not going to be thousands of them on there, 1:30:06.600 --> 1:30:08.679 but there might be you know, two or three dozen, 1:30:08.800 --> 1:30:10.639 or there could be hundreds, depending on the size venue 1:30:10.640 --> 1:30:13.680 they're playing. And yes, maybe it'll get overbought as well, 1:30:13.680 --> 1:30:16.639 and that happens, but see when that happens, that also 1:30:16.640 --> 1:30:21.240 affects the acts because when the when the resellers or 1:30:21.280 --> 1:30:24.840 the bots whatever buy up a lot, a huge lot 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:27.240 like that, and they put it up for resale for 1:30:27.760 --> 1:30:31.000 again higher than whatever's being charged, and they don't sell them, 1:30:31.200 --> 1:30:33.120 then they drop the price to get rid of them, 1:30:33.120 --> 1:30:34.720 because at that point they just want to dump them. 1:30:35.000 --> 1:30:37.639 And then all of a sudden, you know, you're charging 1:30:37.680 --> 1:30:40.280 seventy five bucks per ticket. It's on resale for one 1:30:40.320 --> 1:30:42.240 point fifty, right, and then all of a sudden they're 1:30:42.240 --> 1:30:45.559 available for thirty five and then you know, and it's like, oh, 1:30:45.560 --> 1:30:47.120 I got a ticket for thirty five. You know, it's 1:30:47.160 --> 1:30:50.599 like that doesn't help us, that doesn't help the artist. 1:30:51.320 --> 1:30:54.240 So you know, that's another argument too, because that's just resellers. 1:30:54.320 --> 1:30:56.280 But and there's not going to be any way to 1:30:56.280 --> 1:30:58.639 control this, I know that because they have more money 1:30:58.680 --> 1:31:01.759 than anybody has as far as you don't talk about lobbying, 1:31:01.800 --> 1:31:04.920 they spend a fortune lobbying. They're everywhere, you know, the 1:31:04.960 --> 1:31:08.439 resellers are everywhere, lobbying everywhere. The only the only place 1:31:08.479 --> 1:31:11.680 where they got semi defeated was in Maine recently with 1:31:11.760 --> 1:31:13.200 that main bill that went through. 1:31:20.840 --> 1:31:23.519 Okay, let's talk about the main bill, because this affects 1:31:23.520 --> 1:31:28.800 certain congressional stuff. The laws on the books. Okay, ye 1:31:29.320 --> 1:31:32.720 means obviously a small state, but they have Portland Real 1:31:32.760 --> 1:31:36.360 Augustus premate line or market. Yeah, but how the hell 1:31:36.360 --> 1:31:38.040 are you gonna enforce it? And they're not going to 1:31:38.080 --> 1:31:40.360 put it, give any money to enforce it. So it's 1:31:40.400 --> 1:31:42.880 a victory exactly. 1:31:43.720 --> 1:31:45.880 The enforcement's the important thing. Look, we got there's a 1:31:45.920 --> 1:31:47.599 law in the books not as good as the main 1:31:47.680 --> 1:31:50.200 law in New York State, and it's not enforced a time, 1:31:50.320 --> 1:31:54.559 right or maybe a lot of the time. You're right, 1:31:54.640 --> 1:31:56.599 it's the enforcement. So we were talking again, we were 1:31:56.600 --> 1:31:59.360 talking about this in Milwaukee's It's one thing to actually 1:31:59.360 --> 1:32:02.719 get a law asked. But what seems like they don't 1:32:02.760 --> 1:32:04.840 do is they don't set up the enforcement, you know, 1:32:04.920 --> 1:32:06.920 like in advance. And if you do this, it's this, 1:32:07.160 --> 1:32:08.720 you know, and it's going to cost this. And even 1:32:08.760 --> 1:32:10.559 if they say, okay, if you do this, you're going 1:32:10.600 --> 1:32:12.200 to be fine. One hundred and fifty grand, Like who's 1:32:12.240 --> 1:32:14.439 going out there looking for it and who's doing It's 1:32:14.479 --> 1:32:16.920 not gonna be that high, but you know, a thousand dollars, 1:32:17.120 --> 1:32:19.280 you know, an incident or whatever, who's going out there 1:32:19.280 --> 1:32:24.840 doing it. If they do do that, then these laws 1:32:24.880 --> 1:32:27.360 have teeth. You know, then maybe some of the stops, 1:32:28.200 --> 1:32:30.920 but it's a matter of them doing it. And that's 1:32:31.040 --> 1:32:33.160 something that we're working on. That's part of what we're 1:32:33.160 --> 1:32:36.479 working on. Part of our advocacy is trying to see, 1:32:36.600 --> 1:32:38.679 you know, trying to get some of these things enforced, 1:32:38.760 --> 1:32:42.040 trying to change the laws a little bit, you know, 1:32:42.080 --> 1:32:44.400 trying to trying to angle them a little bit more 1:32:44.400 --> 1:32:47.160 towards you know, in pavor of the Act. And we 1:32:47.240 --> 1:32:49.519 have to do the same thing with those people, you know, 1:32:49.560 --> 1:32:53.000 the representatives that we do when we're when you know, 1:32:53.040 --> 1:32:55.160 when we're talking in general, while I'm talking to you, 1:32:55.160 --> 1:32:58.200 we have to qualify, yeah, the top one percent or 1:32:58.240 --> 1:33:01.519 over here, and they do that and that's okay because 1:33:01.560 --> 1:33:04.240 for them, you know, it's play money. But for the 1:33:04.280 --> 1:33:07.479 working band, this is important. This really hurts them, and 1:33:07.920 --> 1:33:10.440 it's it's hard to get some of those guys to focus. 1:33:10.600 --> 1:33:13.960 I mean, let me tell you a little side story 1:33:14.000 --> 1:33:18.439 on this one too, in two different situations. I won't 1:33:18.439 --> 1:33:19.840 say where and who because I don't want to get 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:22.240 anybody in trouble. But so I had a promoter that 1:33:22.280 --> 1:33:24.559 I spoke to in a major market in a state 1:33:25.280 --> 1:33:27.320 that doesn't have a law you know, about this stuff, 1:33:27.439 --> 1:33:29.479 or doesn't have a good law. And I was trying 1:33:29.479 --> 1:33:32.360 to see if I could get him interested in, you know, 1:33:32.400 --> 1:33:34.680 in doing something about it. So I called him up 1:33:35.080 --> 1:33:37.400 and it was somebody who one of the people who 1:33:37.479 --> 1:33:39.639 worked for him had told me that on one show 1:33:39.680 --> 1:33:42.240 that they had sixty percent of the house was bought 1:33:42.240 --> 1:33:46.559 by the resale market. Wow. Right, yeah, exactly, that's what 1:33:46.640 --> 1:33:50.200 I said. And when the show played, half the place 1:33:50.240 --> 1:33:53.840 was empty, right because they didn't all show up because 1:33:53.880 --> 1:33:56.960 as you say, they probably ought, were you intimated before 1:33:56.960 --> 1:34:01.400 they overbought and they didn't show up. So, uh, I 1:34:01.439 --> 1:34:03.200 was talking about it, and he said to me, I 1:34:03.200 --> 1:34:04.680 have to talk to these guys, you know, because he 1:34:04.720 --> 1:34:06.559 knows some of these people. Obviously most of the major 1:34:06.560 --> 1:34:10.040 promoters do. He said, Uh, I've talked to these guys, 1:34:10.120 --> 1:34:12.280 but the one guy you know, the one key guy 1:34:12.560 --> 1:34:15.960 like the resellers, his buddy, Like, that's where he gets 1:34:16.000 --> 1:34:17.920 his sports tickets. And when he wants to go see 1:34:17.960 --> 1:34:20.160 you know, Taylor Swift or Beyonce or whatever, that's where 1:34:20.160 --> 1:34:21.920 he goes to get his tickets. He doesn't want to 1:34:21.920 --> 1:34:23.600 have to go online and buy his tickets. He just 1:34:23.640 --> 1:34:26.559 calls up gets his tickets. He considers him a mom 1:34:26.560 --> 1:34:32.599 and pop business. And I'm like, seriously, So that's that one. 1:34:33.000 --> 1:34:35.479 And then we had a similar thing in another state 1:34:35.520 --> 1:34:38.400 that we were working on where one of the guys, 1:34:38.880 --> 1:34:41.920 uh that was that we were that that two of 1:34:41.920 --> 1:34:44.400 our members were going to to you know, to try 1:34:44.400 --> 1:34:46.720 to lobby. He was like, no, I think you know, no, 1:34:46.840 --> 1:34:49.439 they're fine, They're okay. You know, they're not bad people. 1:34:49.600 --> 1:34:52.360 And you know, because he gets his tickets there, like, 1:34:53.240 --> 1:34:54.800 and that's what they do. I mean, they know how 1:34:54.840 --> 1:34:57.160 to feed the monster, right. They take care of them. 1:34:57.479 --> 1:34:59.120 They take care of them so that they get taken 1:34:59.120 --> 1:35:02.840 care of. So something that we probably will never solve, 1:35:03.640 --> 1:35:04.920 but we continue to work on it. 1:35:05.280 --> 1:35:07.680 Okay, let's talk to Desky Trucks. You've been involved with 1:35:07.760 --> 1:35:11.320 Derek Trucks from day one. Derek was a phenom he 1:35:11.400 --> 1:35:15.080 played with the Almond Brothers, ultimately gets married to susanho 1:35:15.080 --> 1:35:17.040 has her own career. They've been going out as the 1:35:17.080 --> 1:35:20.200 Tedsky Trucks being certainly in excess. 1:35:19.840 --> 1:35:20.720 Of a decade. 1:35:21.160 --> 1:35:26.439 In the all days, the pre internet days, the goal 1:35:26.560 --> 1:35:29.920 would be to get a record company deal. As you said, 1:35:29.960 --> 1:35:33.800 the company would support you as long as you continue 1:35:33.800 --> 1:35:35.680 to stay look like you were going to be in 1:35:35.720 --> 1:35:41.200 the black and you would have a breakthrough track. It's 1:35:41.200 --> 1:35:43.719 a little different in the late sixties and early seventies, 1:35:43.760 --> 1:35:46.200 but certainly the eighties they're waiting for you to cut 1:35:46.240 --> 1:35:48.479 that one track that's going to make it all work 1:35:48.560 --> 1:35:53.280 for them. Okay, even the biggest tracks on the Spotify 1:35:53.320 --> 1:35:56.720 Top fifty today are not known by most people. So 1:35:56.840 --> 1:36:03.360 the paradigm is done. So like Tedsky Trucks. A is 1:36:03.400 --> 1:36:08.639 it growing? B what is the potential upside? See? What 1:36:08.760 --> 1:36:10.880 is the goal? D? What might get you there? 1:36:13.800 --> 1:36:20.880 Oh boy, another deep suitcase to unpack? Okay, so yeah, 1:36:20.880 --> 1:36:26.840 Tedesky Truck. So it's fifteen years, Bob, fifteen years almost two, well, 1:36:27.160 --> 1:36:28.680 fifteen years to the day, probably at the end of 1:36:28.720 --> 1:36:30.280 the month, at the end of the year, but fifteen 1:36:30.360 --> 1:36:35.840 years and when we started out, and I'll guess I'll 1:36:35.840 --> 1:36:39.679 start there, wave at me or whatever if I'm getting 1:36:39.800 --> 1:36:42.520 too lost in the weeds. But when we started out, 1:36:42.600 --> 1:36:45.439 we had an eight piece band. It's twelve pieces now 1:36:46.360 --> 1:36:48.120 we had an eighth piece ban That was the concept 1:36:48.120 --> 1:36:50.120 they wanted to do. They wanted to take out a band, 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:52.960 you know, full band, double drummers, you know whatever, didn't 1:36:52.960 --> 1:36:57.760 have horns in those days, and had two singers now 1:36:57.800 --> 1:37:01.080 at three so apiece, and so it was going to 1:37:01.080 --> 1:37:04.200 be expensive from the outset. And there was no record 1:37:04.240 --> 1:37:06.280 because there was a brand new band they just put together. 1:37:07.120 --> 1:37:09.600 And this certainly was no hit record, no hit single, right, 1:37:09.640 --> 1:37:13.840 there's none of that yet. So the the thing was, 1:37:13.960 --> 1:37:17.240 and it was something that I was chomping at the 1:37:17.280 --> 1:37:19.960 bit to do for a number of years actually, was 1:37:21.000 --> 1:37:23.360 to have them get together. Would be like I thought, 1:37:23.360 --> 1:37:26.320 this could be it, right, and I think it has been. 1:37:26.320 --> 1:37:30.080 But anyway, but as a backup, so I had to 1:37:30.200 --> 1:37:32.360 and there was you know, no record company support, right 1:37:32.439 --> 1:37:34.719 as you said, I mean there was a record company. 1:37:34.760 --> 1:37:36.760 There was Derek's record company who actually put out I 1:37:36.760 --> 1:37:39.760 think their first album, and then they moved, you know 1:37:39.840 --> 1:37:41.800 after I think after the first album they moved to 1:37:41.800 --> 1:37:44.400 another label, but certainly no labels are going to do 1:37:44.439 --> 1:37:46.120 what has what used to be done right in the 1:37:46.120 --> 1:37:47.840 old days, like we were talking about earlier. Right, they 1:37:47.880 --> 1:37:49.920 would have been a couple of one hundred grand for 1:37:50.000 --> 1:37:51.760 the tour. They would have been a market, they've been 1:37:51.760 --> 1:37:54.040 a big party, they would have dropped the record. It 1:37:54.040 --> 1:37:56.920 would have been like a you know, pr blitz, like 1:37:56.960 --> 1:37:58.880 the whole thing. Okay, So none of that. So this 1:37:58.960 --> 1:38:00.560 had to be worked from the ground which in a 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:02.800 way was kind of a godsend because it wasn't going 1:38:02.840 --> 1:38:05.160 to be a hype and it could be built, you know, 1:38:05.200 --> 1:38:07.240 from from the ground up. Both of them had a base, 1:38:07.680 --> 1:38:09.639 and it was just a matter of building a beer base. 1:38:10.560 --> 1:38:13.880 So I went to people that I thought would be 1:38:13.880 --> 1:38:19.559 interested promoters, people who I happened to speak to right 1:38:19.600 --> 1:38:21.559 after they decided they were going to do this, who 1:38:21.600 --> 1:38:23.599 were hey, what's new? And I said, oh, I got this. 1:38:23.840 --> 1:38:25.320 You want to know something new, I got something new. 1:38:25.320 --> 1:38:27.920 The problem is, honestly, you're not going to make any 1:38:27.960 --> 1:38:30.679 money for three years, and truthfully that was my line. 1:38:31.040 --> 1:38:33.040 You are not making money for three years if you 1:38:33.120 --> 1:38:35.640 do this. Well, why is that? Because I need a 1:38:35.640 --> 1:38:37.160 certain amount of money to keep them on the road. 1:38:37.880 --> 1:38:39.679 They have to have a certain amount of money each night. 1:38:40.880 --> 1:38:42.800 If not, they're not going to work. So it's one 1:38:42.840 --> 1:38:44.479 of the others. So if you're in, you're in. If 1:38:44.479 --> 1:38:47.160 you're out, you're out. It's okay, you know whatever. And 1:38:47.200 --> 1:38:49.559 so I had, you know, probably two or three people 1:38:49.640 --> 1:38:52.080 that were okay, yeah, I like that, let's do it. 1:38:52.160 --> 1:38:54.559 So we started out doing that, so, you know, and 1:38:54.640 --> 1:38:56.400 we went out and built it up. I'll skip all 1:38:56.400 --> 1:38:58.200 the middle part, but basically we did a bunch of 1:38:58.240 --> 1:39:03.040 work the band through over time fairly quickly. They played 1:39:03.040 --> 1:39:04.760 a date in New York. I think it was in 1:39:04.760 --> 1:39:06.840 New York and they invited some horns to come and 1:39:06.880 --> 1:39:09.360 sit in and it was pretty good. And I remember 1:39:09.400 --> 1:39:11.120 asking Derek after the show. I said, hey, what'd you 1:39:11.120 --> 1:39:13.320 think of the horns? He goes they were cool. I said, yeah, 1:39:13.320 --> 1:39:14.840 they are, he goes, maybe we should add them. And 1:39:14.880 --> 1:39:16.679 I kind of shook my head. I was like, okay, 1:39:16.760 --> 1:39:18.519 I mean nod my head. I was like, yeah, that'sund 1:39:18.520 --> 1:39:20.320 like a good idea. And so then all of a 1:39:20.320 --> 1:39:22.880 sudden they were horns and it became a twelve piece 1:39:23.120 --> 1:39:26.719 so and it did, and those early promoters to get involved. 1:39:26.800 --> 1:39:29.360 Probably I'm sure they didn't really make any money. Maybe 1:39:29.360 --> 1:39:31.479 they broke even maybe they didn't, but they were in 1:39:31.520 --> 1:39:33.720 for the beginning, you know, and they stayed in there. 1:39:34.160 --> 1:39:36.880 So it was built from that level. And it never 1:39:37.040 --> 1:39:39.679 was built on records. It was built on touring, which 1:39:39.720 --> 1:39:43.439 is basically what's happening now anyway, but strictly built on touring. 1:39:43.920 --> 1:39:46.000 And how big could it be? Well, at the beginning, 1:39:46.080 --> 1:39:48.080 I remember people saying to me, I can't believe you're 1:39:48.080 --> 1:39:49.960 doing this. There's no way this is going to work. 1:39:50.479 --> 1:39:52.720 Get eight people. Even in the early days, you got 1:39:52.760 --> 1:39:54.360 eight people, because don't forget you get eight people plus 1:39:54.400 --> 1:39:57.479 the crew. So maybe there was fourteen or fifteen, you 1:39:57.479 --> 1:40:00.680 know whatever, maybe fourteen. You got fourteen people on the road. 1:40:00.680 --> 1:40:02.240 How are you going to keep you know, two buses 1:40:02.360 --> 1:40:04.120 and how are you going to keep that going? I said, well, 1:40:04.120 --> 1:40:06.840 we'll do it until we can't, and you know, we 1:40:06.920 --> 1:40:08.680 did it, and it built up little by little, and 1:40:08.720 --> 1:40:10.040 it was a matter of it was a matter of 1:40:10.160 --> 1:40:12.439 doing what I said earlier. It was a matter of knowing, 1:40:13.920 --> 1:40:17.960 feeling where to go, taking some shots, seeing where it worked, 1:40:17.960 --> 1:40:20.240 and it didn't knowing that if it worked over here, 1:40:20.240 --> 1:40:22.960 it could probably work over here, and then just kind 1:40:23.000 --> 1:40:24.439 of building it up and building it up to the 1:40:24.479 --> 1:40:28.000 point where you know, now everybody can you know, everybody 1:40:28.000 --> 1:40:29.920 being fans or whatever in the business can walk around 1:40:29.920 --> 1:40:32.880 and go, oh, yeah, of course Today'skee trucks. Well yeah, 1:40:32.880 --> 1:40:35.800 of course, but you know, it's fifteen years. It took 1:40:35.840 --> 1:40:38.160 about I had told them when we sat down with 1:40:38.280 --> 1:40:41.720 the you know, the then manager, it would take I 1:40:41.720 --> 1:40:45.639 remember saying to what we had lunch, I said, I'm 1:40:46.520 --> 1:40:49.960 in for penny, in for a pound on this. I 1:40:49.960 --> 1:40:51.840 think it's going to take three to five years. If 1:40:51.880 --> 1:40:55.599 you're willing to invest yourself time in three to five years, 1:40:56.080 --> 1:40:58.400 I'm in. But it's probably going to take that because 1:40:58.400 --> 1:40:59.960 I knew, you know, unless we had a hit record, 1:41:00.040 --> 1:41:02.280 it's going to take time to build it. And we 1:41:02.400 --> 1:41:07.880 really started, it really started, you know, uh, whatever you 1:41:07.960 --> 1:41:10.920 want to call it, like, you know, gliding on its 1:41:10.960 --> 1:41:13.960 own if you want to call it that. Probably year seven, 1:41:14.400 --> 1:41:18.639 you know, where it was like okay, we're here, you know, three, yes, five, yes, 1:41:18.720 --> 1:41:23.280 but seven was like yep, we're here, and you know, 1:41:23.320 --> 1:41:25.439 from then, where can you go? So people said, well, 1:41:25.439 --> 1:41:26.880 maybe it's never going to get out of here. So 1:41:27.120 --> 1:41:32.120 eventually they played Madison Square Garden, you know, and we did. 1:41:32.520 --> 1:41:34.680 We didn't do the full venue, but we did the 1:41:34.840 --> 1:41:36.599 you know whatever. It is a twelve five setup, which 1:41:36.640 --> 1:41:39.760 is what most people do right front and sides, and 1:41:39.800 --> 1:41:41.880 we did, you know, phenomenal and it was like there 1:41:41.920 --> 1:41:44.800 was terrent I remember there was torrential rain that day. 1:41:45.080 --> 1:41:48.400 The subways were flooded, the tunnels were flooded. I thought 1:41:48.400 --> 1:41:51.920 we were gonna have to cancel the show. In the end, 1:41:52.360 --> 1:41:55.120 uh we you know, we played it and people came, 1:41:55.360 --> 1:41:57.960 which was a rain stopped in the afternoon, luckily, but 1:41:58.000 --> 1:42:01.000 it was torrential. It was you know, it was everywhere. 1:42:01.080 --> 1:42:04.560 It was shutting things down. It was so bad. And 1:42:04.680 --> 1:42:06.000 you know, we played it and there was you know, 1:42:06.080 --> 1:42:08.040 more no shows than we would would have liked. But 1:42:08.080 --> 1:42:11.040 still the place was full and it was phenomenal. And 1:42:11.120 --> 1:42:12.919 so that was a step that was just to say, 1:42:13.080 --> 1:42:15.519 you know, or said to us, rather, Okay, we're here now, 1:42:15.520 --> 1:42:16.960 we can do whatever we want. We can go back 1:42:16.960 --> 1:42:19.880 to what we're doing. But you know, earlier on we 1:42:19.920 --> 1:42:23.640 started doing the amphitheaters, you know, in the summertime. We 1:42:23.680 --> 1:42:26.360 did the theaters in the in the winter and or 1:42:26.760 --> 1:42:29.360 fall and spring and in the winter actually because they 1:42:29.840 --> 1:42:32.240 used to work. At one point they were working, you know, 1:42:32.280 --> 1:42:34.880 anywhere from seventy to eighty, maybe ninety shows a year. 1:42:34.920 --> 1:42:36.880 One year they hit one hundred and ten I think, 1:42:37.160 --> 1:42:39.000 which was probably their biggest year. But that's a lot 1:42:39.000 --> 1:42:43.080 of work, you know, playing on the road. And they 1:42:43.080 --> 1:42:45.519 had kids too, so that that did that didn't help. 1:42:46.640 --> 1:42:48.559 But you know, it built up and it got too 1:42:48.560 --> 1:42:50.559 a place where now so your question, one of your 1:42:50.600 --> 1:42:52.360 questions is like where does it go from here? I'm 1:42:52.400 --> 1:42:54.320 not sure where it goes, but but it's in a 1:42:54.360 --> 1:42:58.120 place where it's not an overdrive but kind of like 1:42:58.360 --> 1:43:03.559 you know, there's there's a fan base. It's still growing. Okay, 1:43:03.600 --> 1:43:06.360 it's not it's not really diminishing. I mean I watched 1:43:06.400 --> 1:43:08.840 the shows. Uh you know whenever I'm out, you know 1:43:08.880 --> 1:43:11.040 there and I see the people, and I don't see 1:43:11.040 --> 1:43:14.040 people getting up and leaving, you know what I mean. Well, 1:43:14.120 --> 1:43:15.760 when a lot of shows it's like, okay, I've seen 1:43:15.760 --> 1:43:17.439 half of it. I'm going now when they do there 1:43:17.640 --> 1:43:21.800 like you know, uh evening with and I have the 1:43:21.800 --> 1:43:24.240 break in the middle. Sometimes you see that with other acts, 1:43:24.280 --> 1:43:26.200 people start leaving during the break. Now they don't. They 1:43:26.200 --> 1:43:28.080 go out, they buy beer, they buy whatever, they buy 1:43:28.720 --> 1:43:31.960 you know, snacks, whatever, and they come back in buy merchandise. Uh, 1:43:32.000 --> 1:43:34.479 they come back in, so uh, you know it's there. 1:43:34.560 --> 1:43:37.160 So so then now the next thing is, you know, 1:43:39.240 --> 1:43:41.360 which is one of the things you know that they did, 1:43:41.479 --> 1:43:43.280 you know, beginning a few years ago, is they started 1:43:43.280 --> 1:43:46.080 beefing up the production a little bit because because it 1:43:46.640 --> 1:43:49.840 really has been and it still is but has been 1:43:50.240 --> 1:43:53.240 uh since the beginning. You know, a musical act and 1:43:53.320 --> 1:43:55.040 you've seen them, so I think you know what I mean. 1:43:55.080 --> 1:43:56.559 But it's an act that you go there and you 1:43:56.600 --> 1:43:58.519 look and you go out. These guys can play, all 1:43:58.560 --> 1:44:00.519 of them, any one of them. It's it's almost like 1:44:00.560 --> 1:44:02.920 any one of them without doing a pitch on the band. 1:44:03.280 --> 1:44:04.760 It's almost like any one of them could have their 1:44:04.800 --> 1:44:07.400 own band. It might not be a big band, but 1:44:07.400 --> 1:44:08.720 any one of them can have their own band. And 1:44:08.720 --> 1:44:10.680 in fact, most of the guys up there have their 1:44:10.680 --> 1:44:14.120 own bands, you know, their side projects, right so, you know, 1:44:14.160 --> 1:44:19.280 because they're really accomplished musicians. So the music and all 1:44:19.400 --> 1:44:22.519 that's solid, you know, the sets, the shows, whatever. So 1:44:22.600 --> 1:44:24.280 then they started doing the next thing, which is they 1:44:24.600 --> 1:44:27.960 they've over the last three four years, they've started beefing 1:44:28.000 --> 1:44:30.240 up the production a little bit, adding a little bit 1:44:30.240 --> 1:44:35.120 more production value, entertainment value, you know, packaging. We did 1:44:35.280 --> 1:44:39.000 this summer. They're doing you know, shows package with larger 1:44:39.000 --> 1:44:42.519 acts where it's more of a co bill, trying to 1:44:42.840 --> 1:44:45.599 you know, trying to present themselves to a larger audience 1:44:45.880 --> 1:44:49.720 if possible. They've done festivals. You know, they don't live 1:44:49.760 --> 1:44:52.000 on festivals, but they've done them. I don't know, this 1:44:52.040 --> 1:44:53.439 is a personal thing we won't get into, but I 1:44:53.439 --> 1:44:55.000 don't know the festivals they add that much to you 1:44:55.080 --> 1:44:55.920 unless maybe you're. 1:44:55.920 --> 1:44:58.680 Well that was going to be my next question, but continue. 1:44:58.320 --> 1:45:02.479 Okay, well we'll hold it then for then a hold 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:06.240 that one. But yeah, so, yeah, it is growing, you know, 1:45:06.680 --> 1:45:09.320 it's like it's like anything else, though it goes in spurts. 1:45:09.320 --> 1:45:11.040 So there was a point where we were doing this little, 1:45:11.040 --> 1:45:12.439 you know, this thing at the beginning, and then we 1:45:12.800 --> 1:45:15.840 leaped like around year three or so, right, and then 1:45:15.840 --> 1:45:17.920 were all of a sudden we started doing multiple theaters, 1:45:18.680 --> 1:45:20.960 which was a plan. And the plan was to have 1:45:21.000 --> 1:45:22.599 them because they were doing a lot of shows a year, 1:45:22.720 --> 1:45:25.639 was to have them traveling less but doing the same 1:45:25.640 --> 1:45:28.519 amount of business and being able to generate the income 1:45:28.520 --> 1:45:31.160 they needed to keep the band going. So we started 1:45:31.160 --> 1:45:33.800 doing multiples and then you know, then there was a 1:45:33.840 --> 1:45:35.519 thing where kind of set there, and then we jumped 1:45:35.600 --> 1:45:38.120 up and did more multiples in certain places, added some 1:45:38.160 --> 1:45:40.160 more cities, and we started doing the outdoor thing, you know, 1:45:40.200 --> 1:45:42.479 in the summertime, and they did that as a as 1:45:42.479 --> 1:45:46.439 a scenario, and then and tried to play different markets, 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:50.559 so you know, we're getting to different people and you know, 1:45:50.640 --> 1:45:53.040 so and then so then maybe it settled in for 1:45:53.080 --> 1:45:55.160 a little bit and then now there's going to probably 1:45:55.200 --> 1:45:58.120 be another spurt coming up, so it grows in spurts. 1:45:58.320 --> 1:46:03.240 It not every act, every live act or artist goes like, 1:46:03.320 --> 1:46:05.440 you know, straight up. It's not a straight up trajectory. 1:46:05.520 --> 1:46:08.080 Usually if it is, then it starts coming down quicker, 1:46:08.280 --> 1:46:10.640 I think. I mean, there's exceptions to every rule, but 1:46:10.960 --> 1:46:13.360 then usually there's a down, you know, coming down over here. 1:46:13.439 --> 1:46:15.120 Now it may go back up again at some point, 1:46:15.120 --> 1:46:19.240 but it could also just crash back. So slower trajectory 1:46:19.280 --> 1:46:23.240 is better. And you know, I think there's you know, 1:46:23.400 --> 1:46:25.200 they can they can tour as long as they want 1:46:25.240 --> 1:46:27.200 to or not I mean it don't have the tour, 1:46:27.280 --> 1:46:29.439 but I mean they do to give the band together, 1:46:29.479 --> 1:46:31.200 but they can tour as long as they want. 1:46:31.600 --> 1:46:36.760 Well, is the question here, especially today's major market, is 1:46:36.840 --> 1:46:42.240 there a limited audience or is there a growth potential 1:46:42.320 --> 1:46:45.040 from people who just haven't been exposed to it. 1:46:46.360 --> 1:46:49.680 There's there's a growth potential to people that haven't been 1:46:49.680 --> 1:46:52.360 exposed to it. And what we find is what we 1:46:52.479 --> 1:46:55.439 have found over time over the course of the career 1:46:55.560 --> 1:46:59.640 so far, and initially the manager and I will when 1:46:59.640 --> 1:47:02.000 at first started out, we had a we had an etho, 1:47:02.120 --> 1:47:04.720 but the two of us had an ethos. We just 1:47:04.760 --> 1:47:08.040 got to get into a town and play. People will 1:47:08.040 --> 1:47:10.439 see us and they'll come back and bring a friend. 1:47:12.040 --> 1:47:14.640 And it almost worked like that everywhere right first time 1:47:14.640 --> 1:47:15.960 we played in New York? Who played one day at 1:47:15.960 --> 1:47:20.679 the Beacon, which was a shot. Okay. When I tried 1:47:20.680 --> 1:47:24.040 to get the Beacon Theater date together, I called, I 1:47:24.080 --> 1:47:27.800 spoke to three different promoters, none of which wanted to 1:47:27.840 --> 1:47:31.840 do it, and I finally John Cher said he would 1:47:32.000 --> 1:47:34.519 raise his hand and I said, okay, Well, he said, 1:47:34.560 --> 1:47:35.600 what do you want to do in New York? And 1:47:35.640 --> 1:47:37.240 I said, I The first show in New York. By 1:47:37.280 --> 1:47:39.120 the way, they hadn't played here yet as that band. 1:47:39.120 --> 1:47:41.160 I said, I want to either be in Central Park 1:47:41.160 --> 1:47:43.080 in the summer. I want to play the Beacon Theater headlining. 1:47:44.400 --> 1:47:48.280 And he said, what's the deal, And I said, there 1:47:48.320 --> 1:47:50.080 is no deal. This I shouldn't tell you, Bob, but 1:47:50.120 --> 1:47:52.120 I'm going to tell you because it's you. I said, 1:47:52.120 --> 1:47:54.679 there is no deal. Forget the deal. I want the Beacon. 1:47:54.840 --> 1:47:56.759 Give me, give me a weekend night in the fall 1:47:57.560 --> 1:48:01.080 and it's your show. And he got it Saturday night. 1:48:01.120 --> 1:48:02.280 I don't know how he got it, but he got 1:48:02.280 --> 1:48:04.680 it because it's hard to get the Beacon. Uh. And 1:48:04.720 --> 1:48:06.760 I put the date together and we didn't have a guarantee. 1:48:07.280 --> 1:48:10.680 We did a straight percentage of the door. Okay, we 1:48:11.040 --> 1:48:13.160 sold it and we sold out. Well, we finish your story. 1:48:13.520 --> 1:48:17.360 So we sold out. Everybody made money. And then the 1:48:17.400 --> 1:48:19.280 next time, you know, we came around. He goes, Okay, 1:48:19.320 --> 1:48:20.760 we're going to do it again next year and I said, no, 1:48:20.800 --> 1:48:23.960 next year, we're doing two. And he was going, well, 1:48:24.040 --> 1:48:26.000 you're crazy, blah blah, and I said no, we're doing too. 1:48:26.040 --> 1:48:28.599 Because again, our theory was everyone's going to bring a friend, 1:48:29.920 --> 1:48:34.160 so let's try it out, and we did, and we 1:48:34.200 --> 1:48:38.240 did a weekend. Okay, honest truth, we didn't sell it 1:48:38.280 --> 1:48:40.240 to the rafter. You know, we didn't sell every seat 1:48:40.240 --> 1:48:42.360 in the house, but we fucking basically sold it out. 1:48:42.400 --> 1:48:44.599 I mean it was. It was a great two nights. 1:48:45.200 --> 1:48:47.080 And that's when I went upstairs to the back of 1:48:47.080 --> 1:48:48.600 the house and I looked, and I thought, we're not 1:48:48.640 --> 1:48:51.960 selling any seats upstairs. What can we do about that? 1:48:52.320 --> 1:48:54.560 And I thought, let's try this. And I talked to 1:48:54.600 --> 1:48:56.280 the manager and I said, let's make the back of 1:48:56.320 --> 1:48:59.439 the house really inexpensive. Think the upstate had been to 1:48:59.520 --> 1:49:02.959 the Beacon, so you know the you know the upstairs 1:49:02.960 --> 1:49:04.679 balcony at the way back, I mean, you're up there. 1:49:05.000 --> 1:49:07.360 They call the nosebleads, but actually they're good seats. But 1:49:07.479 --> 1:49:09.320 you know they call the nosebleeds for the Beacon, you know, 1:49:09.360 --> 1:49:11.439 for anywhere else, they'd be good seats, really good seats. 1:49:12.280 --> 1:49:15.840 So we did a situation where we charged Okay, so 1:49:15.920 --> 1:49:19.439 this is interesting, okay, I think for you. So I 1:49:19.560 --> 1:49:22.759 made a deal with between the promoter and the venue. 1:49:22.840 --> 1:49:27.080 I got them to agree to do an all in price. Okay, 1:49:27.160 --> 1:49:35.320 this is ten years ago, all in thirty bucks next 1:49:35.320 --> 1:49:37.920 time we played the venue, we sold all the seats 1:49:39.400 --> 1:49:41.479 and I walked up there to see who is going 1:49:41.520 --> 1:49:43.240 to be up there, and so some of the argument was, 1:49:43.240 --> 1:49:46.360 you're just gonna you're gonna, you're gonna cannibalize, you know, 1:49:46.439 --> 1:49:48.160 the other seats you're selling. I said, I don't think so. 1:49:48.320 --> 1:49:50.439 I think they're fans. Even though we've only done it 1:49:50.439 --> 1:49:53.240 in a couple of years, I think they're fans, or 1:49:53.280 --> 1:49:55.200 maybe it was three years before we did that. I 1:49:55.240 --> 1:49:58.439 think their fans are going to want to sit close. 1:49:58.760 --> 1:50:01.040 That's what they want. They want to be comfortable and close. 1:50:01.080 --> 1:50:03.960 That's who their fans are. I think up here we're 1:50:04.000 --> 1:50:07.800 going to have people that want to see them but 1:50:07.840 --> 1:50:10.720 don't want to pay seventy five dollars or sixty nine 1:50:10.800 --> 1:50:13.720 or whatever the present. So we kept that for a 1:50:13.720 --> 1:50:15.519 lot of years, and I used to go up there 1:50:15.520 --> 1:50:18.000 and check at every show and you'd see you'd see 1:50:18.120 --> 1:50:20.479 the face is not the particular people, but you could 1:50:20.479 --> 1:50:23.320 tell those people haven't been here before, or those people 1:50:23.439 --> 1:50:25.080 or there were young couples. I went to a young 1:50:25.120 --> 1:50:27.160 couple and I said, hey, how you doing. You ever 1:50:27.400 --> 1:50:28.880 seen the band before? And they go, oh, yeah, we 1:50:28.920 --> 1:50:32.240 saw them once we love them. They said oh. I said, 1:50:32.280 --> 1:50:34.960 oh great, and they said yeah, in fact, we came 1:50:35.000 --> 1:50:38.440 tonight because we just got engaged. I said, oh, that's awesome, congratulations. 1:50:38.479 --> 1:50:41.439 So they were there because obviously they wanted to pay 1:50:41.439 --> 1:50:43.479 sixty bucks and not have to pay like one hundred 1:50:43.479 --> 1:50:45.360 and twenty or whatever it was. And fine, it probably 1:50:45.360 --> 1:50:47.280 really couldn't afford it, but they wanted to see the band. 1:50:47.760 --> 1:50:49.800 The other thing that happens up there, or did happen 1:50:49.880 --> 1:50:51.280 up there, is you get when we started doing the 1:50:51.360 --> 1:50:53.599 multiple nights, right, you get people that want to come 1:50:53.600 --> 1:50:55.160 back but don't want to pay one hundred and twenty five. 1:50:56.080 --> 1:50:58.240 So they'll you know, one hundred twenty five one night 1:50:58.240 --> 1:51:00.600 and they'll go sit upstairs, you know, for sixty for 1:51:00.760 --> 1:51:02.320 two of them or whatever, you know, two people or 1:51:02.360 --> 1:51:05.160 whatever or a group will go sit up there. So 1:51:05.360 --> 1:51:08.800 we use that anyway. So from the two days, the 1:51:08.800 --> 1:51:14.160 next time we played, I said, let's do three, and 1:51:15.040 --> 1:51:16.680 John said, you're out of your mind. I said, no, 1:51:16.720 --> 1:51:20.639 it'd be fine. We'll do Thursday, Friday, Saturday. So that's 1:51:20.640 --> 1:51:22.639 what we did and we oh, no, sorry, we did. 1:51:22.920 --> 1:51:24.280 We were actually going to do four. We're going to 1:51:24.320 --> 1:51:27.559 do Friday Saturday, Friday Saturday, which he really freaked out about. 1:51:27.560 --> 1:51:30.639 But we ended up doing three for other reasons because 1:51:30.640 --> 1:51:32.439 we had there was another show that they played with 1:51:32.479 --> 1:51:34.360 somebody else and it was kind of in conflict, but 1:51:34.400 --> 1:51:35.960 they had the dates on hold already, so we only 1:51:35.960 --> 1:51:37.960 did three instead of four, and we did great business, 1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:40.080 and then the time after we did four, So it 1:51:40.120 --> 1:51:42.719 was a matter of and so I think the theory 1:51:42.800 --> 1:51:45.880 held true. Also, we had people that would come multiple nights, 1:51:45.920 --> 1:51:48.800 but not as big as most people. Most people thought. 1:51:48.920 --> 1:51:51.160 Most people thought, oh, yeah, they're you know, the fans 1:51:51.160 --> 1:51:53.400 are just buying tickets again. Now I used to look 1:51:53.439 --> 1:51:55.599 at the you know, the ticketing reports. We were doing 1:51:55.640 --> 1:51:58.680 about thirteen percent repeats. It wasn't that high. You know, 1:51:58.680 --> 1:52:01.160 it's probably more now, but you know, because now they'll 1:52:01.200 --> 1:52:04.120 do six days or seven days or whatever. But you know, 1:52:04.160 --> 1:52:05.920 it wasn't as high as people thought. People thought, you know, 1:52:05.960 --> 1:52:08.559 we were doing fifty percent repeats or whatever, thirty percent. 1:52:08.600 --> 1:52:11.840 We weren't doing it. It was thirteen. Maybe some people 1:52:11.880 --> 1:52:13.960 did come back twice, or they came back again and 1:52:14.000 --> 1:52:23.040 brought a different friend with them. 1:52:23.240 --> 1:52:26.880 Okay, we've touched on festivals in the old days. Yeah. 1:52:26.920 --> 1:52:30.679 Up until very recently, you know, you played at twelve 1:52:30.840 --> 1:52:33.559 or one, no one saw you. It was more to 1:52:33.600 --> 1:52:36.759 put on your website. We played d lollaplues or whatever. 1:52:37.800 --> 1:52:42.080 But now it's so hard to get noticed. Some acts 1:52:42.120 --> 1:52:46.080 will play every festival and it seems like there is 1:52:46.320 --> 1:52:49.120 some traction. What do you say to that. 1:52:51.800 --> 1:52:54.439 There is? I mean, there's some, but it's hard. Again, 1:52:54.600 --> 1:52:57.599 if you're talking about the upper ten or twenty percent 1:52:57.600 --> 1:53:01.960 of the acts, yes, maybe, yes, maybe, But when you 1:53:02.000 --> 1:53:04.439 get down the line right when you're an up and 1:53:04.479 --> 1:53:06.719 coming actor, when you're kind of one of those middle acts, 1:53:07.360 --> 1:53:08.800 you know, when you're on at three o'clock in the 1:53:08.840 --> 1:53:12.640 afternoon on the main stage, or even if you're on 1:53:12.680 --> 1:53:15.280 like at five o'clock on that third or second or 1:53:15.320 --> 1:53:18.200 third stage, like, who's seeing you? I mean, I've been 1:53:18.200 --> 1:53:19.960 to some of these festivals. You go out at you know, 1:53:20.080 --> 1:53:23.680 even three o'clock, who's there? Three thousand people? You know, 1:53:23.840 --> 1:53:26.160 at eight o'clock at night is thirty thousand, At ten 1:53:26.200 --> 1:53:28.200 o'clock is forty thousand. You know what I mean. It's 1:53:28.200 --> 1:53:29.960 like if you get the right and I tell us 1:53:29.960 --> 1:53:32.080 to ax all the time, but they but they want 1:53:32.160 --> 1:53:34.320 it for the reason you opened up with Bob. They 1:53:34.320 --> 1:53:36.840 want it on their resume. That's what they say. I 1:53:36.960 --> 1:53:39.760 just want to say that I did it, I said, Okay, 1:53:39.840 --> 1:53:42.000 I mean then I lose the argument because my argument 1:53:42.040 --> 1:53:44.960 to them is why bother? You know, you have to 1:53:44.960 --> 1:53:47.640 stick it in somewhere where it doesn't fit. You have 1:53:47.720 --> 1:53:49.960 to try to surround it because you just don't want 1:53:49.960 --> 1:53:51.760 to fly out and do it. You can't afford to, 1:53:52.240 --> 1:53:54.519 and you're not making much money, and where are you playing. 1:53:54.680 --> 1:53:58.120 You know you're planning to nobody. It's a shame. But yeah, 1:53:58.120 --> 1:54:00.000 there can be some traction. And every once in a while, 1:54:00.040 --> 1:54:02.320 well you know, an act comes out of the festival 1:54:02.439 --> 1:54:05.000 season or something or two or three and everybody goes, oh, 1:54:05.000 --> 1:54:07.280 that's how to do it. There's no magic bullet in 1:54:07.320 --> 1:54:10.639 this business. There is no magic bullet. Now, if there 1:54:10.680 --> 1:54:16.120 was an absolute brand new led Zeppelin today, only because 1:54:16.200 --> 1:54:19.640 they're one of my favorite bands, or Jimmy Hendrix, I 1:54:19.680 --> 1:54:22.120 think they did a couple of festival blow people away, 1:54:22.120 --> 1:54:23.479 and yes it would happen, but if they did it 1:54:23.479 --> 1:54:26.160 at one o'clock in the afternoon, nobody would frickin know. 1:54:27.840 --> 1:54:32.400 Okay, Another one of your long term clients is Joe Satriani. 1:54:33.360 --> 1:54:36.880 Sometimes he works with other people. You know, it could 1:54:36.880 --> 1:54:39.480 be too active, could be part of Sammy Hagar's being. 1:54:40.120 --> 1:54:42.800 Is that just a lifelong career or is there any 1:54:42.920 --> 1:54:45.800 upside in the touring of someone like Satriani. 1:54:47.480 --> 1:54:50.720 It's a lifelong career, really, I mean there's an upside 1:54:50.720 --> 1:54:52.680 obviously he you know, he makes money or he wouldn't 1:54:52.680 --> 1:54:55.400 do it. But it's a lifelong career. It's not like 1:54:55.440 --> 1:54:57.120 you do it for you know, I don't think any 1:54:57.200 --> 1:54:59.080 a lot of these extra five for five years and 1:54:59.120 --> 1:55:01.320 you retire or ten years or whatever. But so I've 1:55:01.320 --> 1:55:03.680 represented Joe for I don't even know how long, thirty 1:55:03.680 --> 1:55:09.320 five years, long time, my probably longest client. He's on 1:55:09.320 --> 1:55:12.000 the road. So what we've done, when I say, way 1:55:12.040 --> 1:55:14.880 the former manager who passed away a few years ago unfortunately, 1:55:14.960 --> 1:55:18.960 you know, terrible accident, what we would do with Joe 1:55:19.120 --> 1:55:21.480 is we would just try to change it up because 1:55:21.520 --> 1:55:24.520 again we had an artist or not again. But you know, 1:55:25.040 --> 1:55:27.760 no record company, no radio stations after the mid nineties, right, 1:55:27.800 --> 1:55:31.200 the AARs were dead early early to mid nineties, like 1:55:31.240 --> 1:55:34.200 they just went away. And that's when his career started. 1:55:34.960 --> 1:55:37.560 You know, when I career sorry, his business, not his career, 1:55:37.560 --> 1:55:39.960 but his business started waning a bit, no pun intended. 1:55:40.680 --> 1:55:42.840 And we had conversations on the phone about it, and 1:55:43.080 --> 1:55:45.240 and I, you know, gave it some thought. We got 1:55:45.280 --> 1:55:47.200 to do something, you know. And it's not about just 1:55:47.240 --> 1:55:50.560 going to smaller venues, because with an artist, some of them, 1:55:50.800 --> 1:55:52.360 some of them will accept that if they want to 1:55:52.400 --> 1:55:54.040 just be you know, if they just want to work, 1:55:54.120 --> 1:55:55.520 you know, I just want to go play my music, 1:55:55.560 --> 1:55:57.800 I'm okay. But if if they have a you know, 1:55:57.840 --> 1:56:02.440 if they have a like an artistic you know, feeling. 1:56:02.480 --> 1:56:05.000 And we all have egos. All of us have egos, 1:56:05.120 --> 1:56:06.800 big ones, little ones. It doesn't matter. We all have 1:56:06.880 --> 1:56:09.600 to have an ego. I think we're not most of 1:56:09.640 --> 1:56:11.680 us have egos. I shouldn't say, oh, maybe some people don't, 1:56:11.680 --> 1:56:13.960 but most of us have some kind of an ego. 1:56:14.040 --> 1:56:15.480 So as an artist, you want to be able to 1:56:15.520 --> 1:56:17.640 present yourself. You don't want to just keep going smaller 1:56:17.680 --> 1:56:20.880 and smaller venues. So I knew that that wasn't the answer, 1:56:21.120 --> 1:56:25.160 you know. So we sat where I sat. We talked 1:56:25.200 --> 1:56:26.880 on the phone, but I sat and I thought about 1:56:26.880 --> 1:56:28.000 it and thought about it, and I thought, okay, we 1:56:28.080 --> 1:56:33.960 gotta do something different. So I actually call the manager. 1:56:34.080 --> 1:56:36.040 I said, I have an idea. So I'm a as 1:56:36.040 --> 1:56:39.040 you may already know or not with the names i've 1:56:39.080 --> 1:56:42.840 been thrown out, I'm a lifelong guitar freak, right, guitar 1:56:42.880 --> 1:56:45.960 player freak like that's been my thing. So I've represented 1:56:45.920 --> 1:56:47.920 a lot of guitar players over the years, bands with 1:56:48.280 --> 1:56:51.480 you know, heavy guitar players, whatever, stand out guitar players 1:56:51.600 --> 1:56:55.560 even now, even now, So I thought about it. I thought, 1:56:55.560 --> 1:56:59.520 what would those fans, especially those guitar nerds, right the gearheads, 1:56:59.520 --> 1:57:00.760 what do they want? I want to see? They want 1:57:00.760 --> 1:57:03.000 to see they want to see guitar players. What's the 1:57:03.040 --> 1:57:07.600 most exciting thing for me? When I, you know, was 1:57:07.640 --> 1:57:10.280 in college and I went to a show and I 1:57:10.320 --> 1:57:12.280 wanted to see a show. What was exciting. What was 1:57:12.280 --> 1:57:14.560 exciting is when the guitar player from one band got 1:57:14.600 --> 1:57:16.200 on stage with the guitar player from the other band. 1:57:16.240 --> 1:57:19.960 They jammed for a while. So I called the manager 1:57:19.960 --> 1:57:21.320 one day and I said, okay, I have an idea. 1:57:22.120 --> 1:57:24.600 I said, what if we get three guitar players or 1:57:24.600 --> 1:57:26.880 four guitar players and put them on stage with one 1:57:26.960 --> 1:57:31.360 band and we do like the whole fucking shows almost 1:57:31.400 --> 1:57:33.720 a jam like, you know, they play each of their 1:57:33.760 --> 1:57:36.000 own songs or whatever. Then they jam some songs and 1:57:36.040 --> 1:57:38.760 they do all this. And I said, basically, it's an 1:57:38.800 --> 1:57:42.440 indoor festival. And he said, I don't know. Let me 1:57:42.440 --> 1:57:44.320 think about it, all right, So he goes back, right, 1:57:44.320 --> 1:57:46.240 and he calls me back. He goes. I spoke to Joe. 1:57:46.360 --> 1:57:49.200 It's it's not a great idea, he said. There's some 1:57:49.240 --> 1:57:50.880 problems with him. He said. One of them is, you know, 1:57:50.880 --> 1:57:53.120 they have to learn his material. He has to learn theirs. 1:57:53.160 --> 1:57:54.840 The other guys have to learn that, you know, blah blah. 1:57:54.880 --> 1:57:57.280 He said. It's there's a logistical thing here. And again 1:57:57.320 --> 1:58:00.680 we're not talking about you know, three chord blues, right 1:58:00.760 --> 1:58:03.520 or whatever, three bard blues. We're talking about technique and 1:58:03.560 --> 1:58:07.040 technical you know stuff. So I thought, okay, I understand, 1:58:07.040 --> 1:58:10.000 you're right, he said, but how about this? He said, 1:58:10.000 --> 1:58:13.160 what if we have three bands and the three bands 1:58:13.200 --> 1:58:15.200 play each their own set, and then at the end 1:58:15.240 --> 1:58:18.200 they jammed for half an hour. I said, that's a 1:58:18.200 --> 1:58:21.120 great fucking idea. Let's do that. So that became G 1:58:21.280 --> 1:58:24.720 three and the idea was to give him another platform, 1:58:24.720 --> 1:58:26.720 to give him something, you know, he had spoken to 1:58:26.760 --> 1:58:28.120 Joe and they had come up with that idea of 1:58:28.160 --> 1:58:29.800 let's do the three bands with the three whatever and 1:58:29.840 --> 1:58:31.560 then and then we had to come up with a name, 1:58:32.200 --> 1:58:34.680 and he and Joe came up with G three, and 1:58:34.720 --> 1:58:37.120 so G three was formed and that was basically three 1:58:37.360 --> 1:58:41.920 bands led by guitar players on stage playing and then 1:58:41.960 --> 1:58:45.200 they jammed at the end. And to this day, especially overseas, 1:58:45.400 --> 1:58:48.520 everyone thinks it's a band. They always called me, I 1:58:48.520 --> 1:58:50.320 want to book the G three band, you know whatever, 1:58:50.320 --> 1:58:52.240 and I go, it's not a band, it's a concept. 1:58:52.480 --> 1:58:55.640 So we did that for you know, many we did that. Alternately, 1:58:55.840 --> 1:58:57.960 Joe would go on tour with an album and then 1:58:58.360 --> 1:59:00.200 when he didn't have an album, we do G three 1:59:00.320 --> 1:59:02.320 and we just, you know, we weren't like that. And 1:59:02.360 --> 1:59:05.200 then what happens eventually is you run out of guitar players. 1:59:05.960 --> 1:59:08.200 You know, unless you can get Brian May or Jeff 1:59:08.280 --> 1:59:10.240 Beck or you know, Jimmy Page to be in it, 1:59:10.240 --> 1:59:12.960 you start running out of guitar players that have teeth. Now, 1:59:13.000 --> 1:59:15.320 there's some good guitar players out there, but what we 1:59:15.440 --> 1:59:17.640 found is I'm probably going deeper than you want, Bob, 1:59:17.680 --> 1:59:20.120 But let me know if I am no matter who 1:59:20.120 --> 1:59:22.120 we put on. After about the first four or five, 1:59:22.640 --> 1:59:25.520 the business got no better than Joe on his own 1:59:26.080 --> 1:59:28.680 because it virtually was the same audience because none of 1:59:28.720 --> 1:59:30.880 the other guitar players really had teeth. The best show 1:59:30.960 --> 1:59:34.040 was the first one the business rather again because it 1:59:34.080 --> 1:59:36.640 was probably the first one that was Joe Eric Johnson, 1:59:36.640 --> 1:59:39.000 who I represented at the time, and Steve I was 1:59:39.000 --> 1:59:41.760 the opening act, and Steve and Joe grew up together, 1:59:42.040 --> 1:59:45.080 but they never played on stage together anywhere, so that 1:59:45.200 --> 1:59:47.000 was like the first time they were kind of playing 1:59:47.000 --> 1:59:49.640 together on stage, right. And then we did one again 1:59:49.680 --> 1:59:54.360 the next time with Joe, Steve and Kenny Wayne Sheppard, 1:59:55.240 --> 1:59:57.240 and we had Robert Fripp playing on the side of 1:59:57.240 --> 1:59:59.640 the stage opening the show, but he didn't want to 1:59:59.680 --> 2:00:02.080 be visit and he played what he called airport music, 2:00:02.640 --> 2:00:05.240 but we advertised him on the bill, and he wouldn't 2:00:05.240 --> 2:00:06.880 come out and jam with him because didn't want anybody 2:00:06.880 --> 2:00:10.600 to see him for whatever reason. He's a lovely guy, 2:00:10.600 --> 2:00:12.600 but he's not into the spotlight basically, you know, he's 2:00:12.640 --> 2:00:15.160 not into being in the spotlight. Uh. And then the 2:00:15.240 --> 2:00:17.920 next one that did the second best ever, I think 2:00:17.920 --> 2:00:19.840 it was a third or fourth one was with Ingvey 2:00:19.880 --> 2:00:24.760 Malmstein and that did really good business as well, because 2:00:24.800 --> 2:00:27.600 again Ingvey had real teeth, right, And then we did 2:00:27.640 --> 2:00:29.560 a bunch of other ones which were great, but then 2:00:29.600 --> 2:00:31.560 it was you know, it didn't when you talk about growing, 2:00:31.600 --> 2:00:33.880 it didn't really grow. So he kind of put it 2:00:33.920 --> 2:00:35.720 and we did it overseas. We did in Australia, we 2:00:35.720 --> 2:00:39.160 did in Europe, we did it in South America. So 2:00:39.240 --> 2:00:41.160 we kind of put it on hiatus for a long 2:00:41.160 --> 2:00:43.600 period of time. And actually the old manager and I, 2:00:43.680 --> 2:00:45.680 you know, at one point thought, I don't know, let's 2:00:45.720 --> 2:00:48.480 just or actually I recommended it to him, but he agreed. 2:00:48.520 --> 2:00:50.600 I said, let's just let's just not do it right now. 2:00:50.920 --> 2:00:52.800 It was a good brand. Let's not kill it, let's 2:00:52.840 --> 2:00:54.800 not let it die, Let's let it be something. Let's 2:00:54.840 --> 2:00:58.360 let people remember, you know. And so we let that go. 2:00:58.480 --> 2:01:02.240 So then what happened last was it last year? Yeah? 2:01:02.400 --> 2:01:04.120 I think it was last year the beginning of last year. 2:01:04.160 --> 2:01:08.240 So last year was like the we call it the 2:01:08.240 --> 2:01:10.240 twenty fifth anniversary, but I think it was actually like 2:01:10.240 --> 2:01:13.160 the twenty seventh really of G three. We put the 2:01:13.200 --> 2:01:16.880 original lineup back together in the original way, you know, 2:01:16.920 --> 2:01:18.720 that we did it. Oh, no, we did it, but 2:01:18.760 --> 2:01:20.920 I think Eric open this time. We put the lineup 2:01:20.960 --> 2:01:22.880 back together and we just did a west coast run, 2:01:23.520 --> 2:01:26.880 you know, north to south, because Joe wanted to do 2:01:26.960 --> 2:01:30.120 a documentary on G three and he wanted to film 2:01:30.160 --> 2:01:31.960 some live stuff and he wanted the guys back together. 2:01:32.000 --> 2:01:34.720 He wanted to do it then and now, which they did. 2:01:34.760 --> 2:01:37.000 They did that. So I put a run of dates together. 2:01:37.560 --> 2:01:39.960 You know, that would pay for itself, make the guys 2:01:40.000 --> 2:01:43.160 a few bucks, you know, you know that we're playing. 2:01:43.480 --> 2:01:45.840 And so Joe could put a documentary together, which was 2:01:45.960 --> 2:01:47.800 actually done by his son who went to film school. 2:01:47.840 --> 2:01:50.440 He's the director. And it was great. The business was great. 2:01:50.480 --> 2:01:52.960 The business was like the first time, it was amazing. Actually, 2:01:53.240 --> 2:01:55.680 so it still has you know, it still has something, 2:01:55.720 --> 2:01:59.360 it still has, you know, appeal. And then following that, 2:02:00.160 --> 2:02:02.040 for the rest of the country. I had planned this 2:02:02.120 --> 2:02:06.160 in advance. We did a Joe Satriiny band Steve Vaiband tour, 2:02:06.520 --> 2:02:09.480 which we had never done before, with the two of 2:02:09.520 --> 2:02:11.600 them playing, each with their own band, and then again 2:02:11.640 --> 2:02:14.360 they jammed at the end and that did really, really well. 2:02:15.560 --> 2:02:21.960 And then the manager talked to Joe and said, you 2:02:22.000 --> 2:02:23.720 know what would be great because he and I had 2:02:23.760 --> 2:02:25.200 talked and I said, you know, it would be great 2:02:25.680 --> 2:02:27.920 if the two of them played together in a band. 2:02:28.040 --> 2:02:30.560 That would be freaking amazing. And so he talked to 2:02:30.640 --> 2:02:33.120 Joe and they talked to Joe and Steve talk together, 2:02:33.160 --> 2:02:35.560 and so they put a band together. They actually went 2:02:35.560 --> 2:02:37.600 in a studio and recorded an album, which they'd never 2:02:37.640 --> 2:02:41.160 done before. Album comes out I think in September. They're 2:02:41.200 --> 2:02:43.160 in Europe now doing the tour. Unfortunately, the album was 2:02:43.200 --> 2:02:45.800 held up because of the LA fires, but they put 2:02:45.800 --> 2:02:47.920 out a couple of tracks, so they're doing a tour 2:02:47.960 --> 2:02:51.560 in Europe. The reviews were phenomenal, the UK dates were phenomenal, 2:02:53.000 --> 2:02:55.560 and we're planning a tour here yet next year. So 2:02:56.440 --> 2:02:57.840 I'm not trying to do a pitch for the tour, 2:02:57.880 --> 2:02:59.800 but we're planning and doing that tour here next year. 2:03:00.120 --> 2:03:04.280 Is called the setch V Band SVB be the first 2:03:04.280 --> 2:03:06.320 time that you know in America that they play in 2:03:06.360 --> 2:03:08.920 the same band and there's a guy that sings some songs, 2:03:08.920 --> 2:03:12.960 so actually there'll be some vocals and it's just again 2:03:13.000 --> 2:03:14.880 it's a new take. It's what you're asking about, what 2:03:14.880 --> 2:03:17.200 do you do so it's a career, but you just 2:03:17.320 --> 2:03:20.080 change it up, you know, you keep them excited, you 2:03:20.200 --> 2:03:22.040 keep the audience excited. I mean, that's all part of it. 2:03:22.120 --> 2:03:23.880 I just got an email from Steve I today going, 2:03:24.080 --> 2:03:27.160 this is so exciting. I can't wait for the US dates. 2:03:27.240 --> 2:03:29.360 I mean, that's what I do it for. 2:03:30.400 --> 2:03:35.120 Okay, let's go back to Niedo now that COVID is over. Yeah, 2:03:35.440 --> 2:03:37.560 how active and what's the agenda of Needo? 2:03:39.400 --> 2:03:42.720 Sonito's very active. We just hired an executive director full 2:03:42.840 --> 2:03:47.960 time starting this January. This at the end of last year, 2:03:48.080 --> 2:03:51.720 I was elected president for this year, so I'm sort 2:03:51.720 --> 2:03:53.240 of in the driver's seat, I guess if you want 2:03:53.240 --> 2:03:54.400 to call it that. But we have a board of 2:03:54.440 --> 2:03:58.320 directors which are probably probably half of the originals or 2:03:58.360 --> 2:04:00.640 a little less than half the original guy as people. 2:04:01.680 --> 2:04:03.640 And then we have some you know, new members that 2:04:03.640 --> 2:04:06.160 we've had new members coming in over the years. Some 2:04:06.160 --> 2:04:10.080 some people step down off the board, but we you know, 2:04:10.120 --> 2:04:13.280 we're fighting to fight on the tickets that we just 2:04:13.320 --> 2:04:15.400 talked about, and you know, the ticketing and the fees 2:04:15.480 --> 2:04:20.560 and whatever. We had a joint board meeting in Milwaukee 2:04:20.560 --> 2:04:23.720 with NEVA to see what it is they would like 2:04:23.800 --> 2:04:27.800 to see what they their problems, what they would hope 2:04:27.800 --> 2:04:31.240 to have happened. We gave them some of the things 2:04:31.240 --> 2:04:33.120 that we think we would like to see for us, 2:04:33.160 --> 2:04:35.920 for our clients. Uh So it was a good two 2:04:36.000 --> 2:04:39.600 hour discussion that we had. Aside from you know, individually talking, 2:04:39.600 --> 2:04:42.920 that was like a sit down joint board meeting. We 2:04:43.000 --> 2:04:48.080 had a before that they're turning over their president. They 2:04:48.080 --> 2:04:50.520 have a new president coming in July one. So we 2:04:50.640 --> 2:04:54.760 met with you know, two presidents and the executive director. 2:04:54.880 --> 2:04:57.520 Myself and two of the officers are our executive director 2:04:57.560 --> 2:04:59.520 had a baby, had a baby two and a half 2:04:59.560 --> 2:05:01.600 weeks ago, so he couldn't make the trip. He didn't 2:05:01.600 --> 2:05:02.960 have a baby. He and his wife had a baby. 2:05:03.160 --> 2:05:05.400 They couldn't make the trip. So he couldn't make the trip. 2:05:05.400 --> 2:05:07.920 He didn't want to leave home for three or four days. 2:05:08.440 --> 2:05:11.200 Uh So we we filled in for him on that. 2:05:11.320 --> 2:05:16.240 In that meeting, we're you know, we are talking to 2:05:16.280 --> 2:05:20.120 the p ros, the performing rights organizations about I don't 2:05:20.120 --> 2:05:22.000 want to get into a long conversation because that could 2:05:22.040 --> 2:05:24.680 last another hour, but you know, basically performing rights for 2:05:24.720 --> 2:05:27.320 people I don't realize, and the fans and audience aren't 2:05:27.320 --> 2:05:29.320 really going to care about this, but managers and artists 2:05:29.320 --> 2:05:32.280 care about it most of all. You know, the p 2:05:32.400 --> 2:05:35.640 r os, four of them right now. They collect you know, 2:05:36.040 --> 2:05:38.839 a fee on every show in most of every venue. 2:05:38.920 --> 2:05:41.520 Right some venues maybe they don't have a deal with yet, 2:05:41.520 --> 2:05:45.240 but mostly most of the venues, and that all goes 2:05:45.280 --> 2:05:48.080 into a pool. And one of the managers are speaking 2:05:48.080 --> 2:05:50.800 this weekend and this week sorry I keep saying this weekend, 2:05:50.800 --> 2:05:53.840 this week and saying that they had an artist that 2:05:53.920 --> 2:05:56.880 agreed to So what happens is you pay the four 2:05:56.920 --> 2:06:00.960 performing rights organizations okay, no matter what you sing or play, 2:06:01.000 --> 2:06:03.880 but you may only be licensed or have a deal 2:06:03.920 --> 2:06:08.240 with one of them. Okay, most people have with one 2:06:08.320 --> 2:06:10.320 or two. And if you're doing a lot of cover 2:06:10.440 --> 2:06:13.160 songs or other people's material, it could be that they're 2:06:13.160 --> 2:06:15.839 all four, right, But somebody that does their own material, 2:06:16.160 --> 2:06:17.960 if they have a deal with BMI, it's only BMI, 2:06:18.040 --> 2:06:22.640 not ASCA, for instance, or CSAK or GMR. So you're 2:06:22.640 --> 2:06:26.480 paying into a pool. And this one act said, Okay, 2:06:26.640 --> 2:06:29.440 I'll make a list of all the songs I'm playing 2:06:29.440 --> 2:06:32.400 and I'll submit it so that I can get paid 2:06:32.400 --> 2:06:34.360 on what to perform. So he did his whole tour 2:06:34.560 --> 2:06:38.240 and did that and on the money that was drawn 2:06:38.280 --> 2:06:39.800 on one of the shows. And I'm just this is 2:06:39.880 --> 2:06:41.600 third party, so I don't know this for a fact. 2:06:43.000 --> 2:06:44.920 One of the shows that he joined, I'm not sure 2:06:44.920 --> 2:06:46.600 what was paid in. It could be as much as 2:06:47.240 --> 2:06:48.880 three to six It could be like eight hundred bucks, 2:06:48.920 --> 2:06:51.440 seven hundred and fifty bucks. Let's say in a theater 2:06:51.560 --> 2:06:55.280 venue or something, you pay in it's actually a fixed 2:06:55.320 --> 2:06:58.600 fee versus a percentage of the sales most of the time. Okay, 2:06:59.080 --> 2:07:01.120 so let's say seven one hundred to one thousand he 2:07:01.160 --> 2:07:04.760 paid in, he got twenty eight bucks. So where the 2:07:04.800 --> 2:07:07.880 rest of the money go. So that's what we're looking into. 2:07:07.920 --> 2:07:10.600 Now take that to a stadium level, and could you imagine. 2:07:10.680 --> 2:07:12.680 I had a conversation with an attorney for one of 2:07:12.720 --> 2:07:16.960 the major for a number of major stadium acts, and 2:07:17.000 --> 2:07:18.480 I said, hey, if you ever looked at the pros? 2:07:18.520 --> 2:07:19.680 And he goes, what are you talking about? I said, 2:07:19.680 --> 2:07:21.160 do you ever see a settlement sheet? He said no. 2:07:21.240 --> 2:07:23.200 I said, let me send you a copy. I got 2:07:23.200 --> 2:07:24.480 on the phone with him a couple of days later. 2:07:24.480 --> 2:07:26.400 I said, have a look at this. I said, look 2:07:26.400 --> 2:07:29.000 at how much it's being paid out. How much you 2:07:29.120 --> 2:07:31.640 get how much do you realize you realize how much 2:07:31.640 --> 2:07:32.760 money that is on a tour if you do in 2:07:32.800 --> 2:07:35.320 all stadiums, I'm sure you're not getting that back. And 2:07:35.320 --> 2:07:37.840 he was like, holy shit, that's a lot of money. 2:07:37.600 --> 2:07:39.600 So we're trying to deal with that. Where are we 2:07:39.640 --> 2:07:41.600 going to get We don't know. We're advocating, you know, 2:07:41.640 --> 2:07:45.960 we're advocating for tickets. We did something again the normal 2:07:46.280 --> 2:07:49.200 Joe's not going to care about. We negotiated a you know, 2:07:49.240 --> 2:07:55.040 a terms and conditions attachment for contracts with Live Nation 2:07:55.200 --> 2:07:58.720 individually and AEG individually, and we're working with Neva to 2:07:59.080 --> 2:08:01.720 get something that they could recommend to their venues so 2:08:01.760 --> 2:08:05.280 that instead of them getting every from every agency for 2:08:05.360 --> 2:08:08.040 every act, a different set of terms and conditions. That's 2:08:08.080 --> 2:08:11.480 the add ons to the contract, like you know, no photography, 2:08:11.920 --> 2:08:13.840 you know, if it rains, this happens, you know, all 2:08:13.880 --> 2:08:15.840 the extra crap, you've got to have two million dollars 2:08:15.880 --> 2:08:18.080 in insurance, you know all that stuff. We're trying to 2:08:18.120 --> 2:08:20.040 pre negotiate all that so you can just do your 2:08:20.080 --> 2:08:23.360 basic contract, attach it which has already approved, send it, 2:08:23.520 --> 2:08:27.000 no argument. We all agreed it already, so we're trying 2:08:27.000 --> 2:08:29.440 to do that just to make the whole process of 2:08:29.480 --> 2:08:33.000 the contracting a lot easier and less tense and argumentative. 2:08:33.080 --> 2:08:35.160 So there's that that doesn't seem like a lot, but 2:08:35.600 --> 2:08:39.440 it is for a day to day scenario. We're you know, 2:08:39.480 --> 2:08:44.120 we negotiated an insurance policy for the younger acts to 2:08:44.160 --> 2:08:47.720 have a you know that need bottom line insurance for 2:08:47.840 --> 2:08:51.040 touring that can't afford a lot of insurance. So we 2:08:51.120 --> 2:08:55.360 negotiated with an organization needle members get a discount, and 2:08:55.680 --> 2:08:58.280 there's like a low level for the band starting out 2:08:58.320 --> 2:09:00.600 to make sure their equipment's covered. You know, they've got 2:09:00.880 --> 2:09:03.400 you know, you know, liability like that kind of stuff. 2:09:03.440 --> 2:09:07.000 So so we've negotiated that. At one point, we we know, 2:09:07.120 --> 2:09:11.920 we negotiate, sorry, we negotiated with Peter when Peter was 2:09:11.920 --> 2:09:15.839 still at a hub. We negotiated a festival and outdoor 2:09:15.960 --> 2:09:20.480 show weather contract or or deal for neat lower level 2:09:20.560 --> 2:09:23.800 Needo acts, right, they can't afford you know, not what 2:09:23.840 --> 2:09:27.600 do you call it weather insurance? Right, cancelation insurance. So 2:09:27.600 --> 2:09:29.200 so we you know, we did that. So some of 2:09:29.200 --> 2:09:31.360 the stuff we're doing is kind of boring and mundane 2:09:31.440 --> 2:09:33.800 to everybody else, but it's you know, it's for our members. 2:09:35.040 --> 2:09:38.160 You know, there's there's other things, uh, that we've been 2:09:38.160 --> 2:09:40.320 working on. You know, the ticketing things is a really 2:09:40.320 --> 2:09:42.280 big one because we've been involved in Maryland, we were 2:09:42.320 --> 2:09:44.840 involved in Maine, we were involved in New York State, 2:09:45.080 --> 2:09:48.640 We're involved in California. You know, we're involved in in 2:09:49.040 --> 2:09:51.320 a lot of different states because really at state by 2:09:51.320 --> 2:09:54.520 state over here, and and then there's things that that 2:09:54.640 --> 2:09:56.880 come up that you know, that that members say they 2:09:56.880 --> 2:09:59.040 need that we you know that we get involved with. 2:10:00.040 --> 2:10:02.920 So that's what we're here for. We do we run 2:10:04.080 --> 2:10:07.800 we're starting to run weekly, sorry not weekly, monthly webinars 2:10:07.840 --> 2:10:09.720 indoor town halls. So we used to do them once 2:10:09.760 --> 2:10:11.920 in a while. We do zooms for our members, so 2:10:11.960 --> 2:10:13.920 we've been this year we decided to get you know, 2:10:14.000 --> 2:10:15.680 serious about it, so we're doing one. So we did 2:10:15.720 --> 2:10:19.360 one on marketing and PR where we brought marketing people 2:10:19.400 --> 2:10:22.760 in and PR people you know, from a couple of firms, 2:10:23.000 --> 2:10:25.920 from a couple of promoters, independent marketers to do with 2:10:26.120 --> 2:10:28.720 session for members that wanted to to discuss marketing and 2:10:29.480 --> 2:10:35.240 public relations. We did one on visas Carnes and something else. 2:10:35.280 --> 2:10:38.520 There was like three topics on it. Boring for most people, 2:10:38.640 --> 2:10:42.400 but for people, especially managers that are touring, they need 2:10:42.440 --> 2:10:44.200 to know about that stuff. They need to know what 2:10:44.240 --> 2:10:46.840 their options are, what their issues, what the issues are. 2:10:47.120 --> 2:10:49.320 You know, country by country you can change, especially now 2:10:49.360 --> 2:10:51.320 that you know the UK is not in the EU anymore. 2:10:51.320 --> 2:10:53.000 It was easy to get from you know, the UK 2:10:53.080 --> 2:10:55.680 into Europe and tour, but now that they're not part 2:10:55.680 --> 2:10:57.400 of the EU, there's a whole thing of the trucking 2:10:57.520 --> 2:10:59.640 go in and out of the UK back to Europe. 2:11:00.520 --> 2:11:03.640 Things that you know, most people generally don't know about. 2:11:04.600 --> 2:11:06.400 We did what we're going to We did one on 2:11:06.920 --> 2:11:09.680 mental health on the road the other day, which was 2:11:09.720 --> 2:11:11.040 a really good one. We had a lot of people 2:11:11.040 --> 2:11:14.760 attend that one, and that's important because that's happening. Issues 2:11:14.760 --> 2:11:16.600 are happening more and more, you know, when you're out 2:11:16.600 --> 2:11:20.040 on the road, especially for these crew people right there. 2:11:20.680 --> 2:11:23.000 So an artist goes on the road for you know what, 2:11:23.600 --> 2:11:27.480 sixty or eighty days, maybe ninety days. Maybe maybe it's 2:11:27.520 --> 2:11:29.560 one hundred and twenty, you know, but not that many shows, 2:11:29.560 --> 2:11:31.640 but maybe it's over a period. Some of these crew 2:11:31.680 --> 2:11:34.680 guys are working all year long and they don't think 2:11:34.720 --> 2:11:37.760 about it. The burnout rates really high mentally I'm talking 2:11:37.800 --> 2:11:41.120 about physically also, so you know, there are a lot 2:11:41.160 --> 2:11:42.640 of issues. So we're just trying to we're trying to 2:11:42.640 --> 2:11:44.920 help with that, so you know, those are the kinds 2:11:44.920 --> 2:11:45.560 of things that we do. 2:11:46.240 --> 2:11:51.200 Okay, Finally, why should someone hire you as an agent 2:11:51.400 --> 2:11:56.280 as opposed to anybody else? And implicit in that question 2:11:56.440 --> 2:11:59.960 is to what degree should acts hire and independent age 2:12:00.720 --> 2:12:03.960 as opposed to one of these corporate own full sort 2:12:03.960 --> 2:12:05.000 of agencies. 2:12:07.280 --> 2:12:10.680 I'll just say this to the on the immediately to 2:12:10.920 --> 2:12:12.800 get it out of the way before I actually say 2:12:12.800 --> 2:12:15.800 why they should hire me personally, it really depends on 2:12:15.840 --> 2:12:17.760 what an acts looking for. If they want to be 2:12:17.760 --> 2:12:20.760 a TV film star, I'm not the place to come, Okay. 2:12:21.120 --> 2:12:24.400 I doubt whether the regular Joe act is going to 2:12:24.440 --> 2:12:26.560 be a film or TV store. Anyway, it's a great pitch. 2:12:26.840 --> 2:12:28.400 I've had a couple of acts over the years that 2:12:28.640 --> 2:12:30.200 left me because they thought they were going to get 2:12:30.200 --> 2:12:32.280 a film score or they were going to be in 2:12:32.320 --> 2:12:34.800 a movie or a TV thing. And I'm still waiting 2:12:34.840 --> 2:12:37.280 to see and hear all of the above. Okay, So 2:12:37.640 --> 2:12:40.320 that's number one. It depends on what you want. If 2:12:40.360 --> 2:12:42.560 you want somebody that's going to help you and give 2:12:42.600 --> 2:12:45.440 good advice, if you want somebody that's gonna really care, 2:12:45.960 --> 2:12:47.400 and if you're gonna want somebody and I hate to 2:12:47.400 --> 2:12:50.320 say this because my daughters think I'm I'm crazy and 2:12:50.320 --> 2:12:52.080 I should get out of business already, is if you 2:12:52.120 --> 2:12:54.440 want somebody that's gonna lose sleep over your fricking tour 2:12:55.320 --> 2:12:58.280 and literally wake up at five o'clock in the morning 2:12:58.600 --> 2:13:01.360 with an idea that they think is going to help 2:13:01.480 --> 2:13:05.280 you do something different that will help your career, or 2:13:05.320 --> 2:13:08.280 an idea. I've actually texted you know, promoters at six 2:13:08.320 --> 2:13:10.600 o'clock in the morning when I came up with something 2:13:10.600 --> 2:13:12.160 to save a date that I thought was going to 2:13:12.240 --> 2:13:17.240 go down. And you want some good advice on like 2:13:17.360 --> 2:13:22.320 building and maintaining your career, I'm the guy, but I'm again, 2:13:22.360 --> 2:13:27.480 I'm not for everybody. I say what I mean Sometimes 2:13:27.520 --> 2:13:32.240 I shouldn't, but I do. I'm basically honest as far 2:13:32.280 --> 2:13:34.840 as and I don't mean in a financial way. I'm 2:13:34.880 --> 2:13:36.960 talking about in a conversational way. I may say things 2:13:36.960 --> 2:13:40.800 that will end up costing me the relation, the representation, 2:13:40.920 --> 2:13:42.720 but I'm going to say what I mean, because if 2:13:42.720 --> 2:13:46.040 somebody is dreaming, I'm going to tell them that you're dreaming. 2:13:46.480 --> 2:13:48.440 I hope you achieve it, but I don't think you will. 2:13:48.760 --> 2:13:50.040 I think you got to. You know. Sometimes it's like 2:13:50.080 --> 2:13:51.720 I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna get here. Yeah, 2:13:51.760 --> 2:13:53.880 there's a lot of steps to get there. You're not 2:13:53.960 --> 2:13:55.840 just getting there. You got to do all this first. 2:13:57.440 --> 2:14:00.000 And you know, I like to take care of details. 2:14:00.120 --> 2:14:03.560 I'm a detail oriented guy for everyone else, not for myself. 2:14:04.960 --> 2:14:08.400 Okay, Wayne, a lot of information here. I'm glad we 2:14:08.520 --> 2:14:10.839 covered what Nita was doing, a lot of important stuff. 2:14:11.480 --> 2:14:13.440 I want to thank you for taking this time to 2:14:13.480 --> 2:14:14.560 talk with my audience. 2:14:15.600 --> 2:14:18.120 You're welcome, Bob anytime. I appreciate it. Thank you for 2:14:18.160 --> 2:14:18.480 the time. 2:14:18.560 --> 2:14:20.920 Okay, we still didn't cover David Bowie in all the 2:14:20.960 --> 2:14:22.320 Old Days at another time. 2:14:23.000 --> 2:14:24.400 Well, we should come back to that because I have 2:14:24.440 --> 2:14:26.680 some good stories. If you want to do a story, okay. 2:14:26.520 --> 2:14:31.000 I'm sure. Until next time. This is Bob left six